What would his ceiling be? He had seasons of:
26/6/4/1.3/1.1 on 47/40/79
28/6/4/1.5/1.1 on 46/41/77
25/5/4/1.4/0.6 on 45/41/80
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What would his ceiling be? He had seasons of:
26/6/4/1.3/1.1 on 47/40/79
28/6/4/1.5/1.1 on 46/41/77
25/5/4/1.4/0.6 on 45/41/80
It depends on whether or not he steals Jordan's game as well like kobe. If not, he would prb only get a little bit better. He isn't all of a sudden going to become a top ten player.
someone not named vince carter
That would make him, hands down, the greatest dunker of all time, by miles.
360 ppg, 540 rpg, and 720 apg.
This guy had serious potential. If you think about it there's not one weakness that Vince Carter had besides being a pvssy with no heart. Vince Carter with Kobe's worth ethic has at worst top 20 potential
Work ethic is overrated. It's more competitiveness what really drives you.
Who had less work ethic... Vince or T-Mac?
It's a close call, but I think Vince cared even less than his cousin. T-Mac at least vocally expressed a strong desire to win that almost convinced you he was working hard.
[QUOTE=SyRyanYang]Work ethic is overrated. It's more competitiveness what really drives you.[/QUOTE]
Work ethic, preperation has a lot to do with it. A LOT.
Work ethic isn't just working out and getting your shot perfect. It's about watching games and preparing yourself to give your team the best shot at winning.
Competitiveness is that extra drive that pushes you into greatness.
He could have been the best ever, he could shoot from anywhere and drive, if he had a motor and willingness to work he could have been a legend.
I don't think Carter's work-ethic was the problem, it more like his attitude. He plays when he wants to play.
I never heard anywhere that Vince didn't work hard and would **** off. I just know that he quit on his team and did a bunch of terrible things for the Toronto Raptors when he wanted to leave.
maybe top 10 wise in production but he would still hae to win to get in the rankings
[QUOTE=HardwoodLegend]Who had less work ethic... Vince or T-Mac?
It's a close call, but I think Vince cared even less than his cousin. T-Mac at least vocally expressed a strong desire to win that almost convinced you he was working hard.[/QUOTE]
Carter cared less but he also worked harder. Kind of strange right? Tmac wanted to win but he didn't want to work/earn it.
[QUOTE=scm5]Work ethic, preperation has a lot to do with it. A LOT.
Work ethic isn't just working out and getting your shot perfect. It's about watching games and preparing yourself to give your team the best shot at winning.
Competitiveness is that extra drive that pushes you into greatness.[/QUOTE]
Carter was already a great player and the extra push was all he needs.
he'd be the best player of all-time
If y'all curious about vince carter's prime or just wanna see vince carter videos, check this youtube channel out [URL="http://www.youtube.com/user/vc15encyclopedia/videos?view=0"]http://www.youtube.com/user/vc15encyclopedia/videos?view=0[/URL]
I would reword the phrase...give Vince Carter Lebron's Motiviation and he would do better than Kobe.
Kobe is a hard worker, no denying this, but lets not act like he wasnt lucky to be where is now.
[QUOTE=Noob Saibot]I would reword the phrase...give Vince Carter Lebron's Motiviation and he would do better than Kobe.
Kobe is a hard worker, no denying this, but lets not act like he wasnt lucky to be where is now.[/QUOTE]
serious?
how is Kobe Lucky?
watching his game/career....none of it is Luck.
to get a game like Kobe's...you have to work extremely hard....
:facepalm at some of these posters.
[QUOTE=Noob Saibot]I would reword the phrase...give Vince Carter Lebron's Motiviation and he would do better than Kobe.
Kobe is a hard worker, no denying this, but lets not act like he wasnt lucky to be where is now.[/QUOTE]
Lol luck? Kobe is still in the conversation for top 10 in the league despite age and injuries. Luck has nothing to do with that.
[QUOTE=longtime lurker]Lol luck? Kobe is still in the conversation for top 10 in the league despite age and injuries. Luck has nothing to do with that.[/QUOTE]
does kobe jordan still win a title if he's not a Laker? i mean he is that gifted right?
[QUOTE=Noob Saibot]does kobe jordan still win a title if he's not a Laker? i mean he is that gifted right?[/QUOTE]
Yes. I don't know what you're getting at here. Putting on a Laker uniform doesn't guarantee titles.
[QUOTE=longtime lurker]Yes. I don't know what you're getting at here. Putting on a Laker uniform doesn't guarantee titles.[/QUOTE]
I agree a jersey doesn't guarantee titles. but a great franchise like the Lakers in a big market will always build great teams centering around a certain player with the franchise "Tag". Its a formula that's worked well with them for decades. No NBA drafts needed if you can buy yourself a great team. The "luck" factor comes in on how many chances a franchise player can succeed in an organization like that.
This response isn't to belittle someone like Kobe, he going to the Hall of Fame because he served the Lakers extremely well. Anyways, about Vince Carter, StateofMind12 said it best, he plays hard, but wasn't always motivated nor did Vince keep his skills up. Had he'd done that he would still be in New Jersey or even Toronto if the Raptors weren't so shitty.
[QUOTE=Noob Saibot]I would reword the phrase...give Vince Carter Lebron's Motiviation and he would do better than Kobe.
Kobe is a hard worker, no denying this, but lets not act like he wasnt lucky to be where is now.[/QUOTE]
you're missing the point. luck has nothing to do with working hard and and being motivated.
I would say Carter lacked heart. He had more natural ability than Kobe, combine it with hard work, desire, and heart, he could've been one of the greatest wing to play the game.
Kobe is 100 proof. Stop lying to yourself calling it luck. You MAKE your own luck. Kobe had all te pressure on him to win titles after Shaq left and went back to back no less with a team built around him. /Thread
[QUOTE=DStebb716]he'd be the best player of all-time[/QUOTE]
Even ith Kobe's work ethic, he's still not better than Kobe. I'd say a top 30 though
[QUOTE=TheeBeast]Even ith Kobe's work ethic, he's still not better than Kobe. I'd say a top 30 though[/QUOTE]
Better three point shooter, attacked the hoop at will, more athletic, a bit below him defensively but able to block shots. Add Kobe's work ethic, there's no reason to think Vince couldn't push top 10 all-time. The physical gifts were there from day 1.
Vince had a polished game from the start, at least offensively. Even with a work ethic as great as Kobe's is, does this translate in Vince playing better defense ?
He'd certainly would be better and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be taking nights off the court. Probably would have more individual accolades and awards. As for team accomplishments and how he performs in the playoffs... like any good/great wing player, he would have a solid low post big man to help take some pressure of him. I thought what his teams lacked on the Toronto and New Jersey teams in his prime was no solid post presence.
So, I definitely think he would be much higher ranked, especially if he won multiple titles in a city like Toronto, which didn't have titles to begin. There's always something special about bringing the first set of title(s) to a franchise that didn't have NBA Title history or playoff success to begin with.
He had a naturally slow lateral movement that couldn't be corrected with any sort of work ethic which is a glaring flaw to have in your defensive game. Yes he was more offensively talented than Kobe but not defensively. Still as far as natural talent goes, I would put him in Top 5 for SG/SF's.
Work-ethic won't give him Kobe's ball-handling and play-making ability.
Or his lateral quickness.
Or his body control.
Or his focus.
Man it's crazy how much people overrate the " natural talent" of guys like Carter/T-Mac.
[QUOTE=Jacks3]Work-ethic won't give him Kobe's ball-handling and play-making ability.
Or his lateral quickness.
Or his body control.
Or his focus.
Man it's crazy how much people overrate the " natural talent" of guys like Carter/T-Mac.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. It's like people got suckered into thinking jumping ability is of upmost importance in basketball after watching Jordan, but Jordan wasn't just good because he jumped high. He was good for the very same reasons Kobe is so good, he was all-around talented at everything. Lateral quickness is more important than jumping ability, but people seem to not give much of a ****.
T-Mac, however, was a huge talent. He just was injury prone, had a weak work-ethic (hence the injuries) and some bad luck. Vince was also very talented, but I wouldn't put him on the same level. His handle never compared to other shooting guards and, as was mentioned, his lateral quickness sucks.
And whoever said Vince would have been the greatest dunker of all time...how is he not the greatest already? The guys 100th best dunk would be anyone's 1st...cmon now, the man had video game type dunks...not NBA2k or live, like NBASTREET shit...cmon now.
Vince's problem is he never evolved. He was more or less the same player through his prime, and once his otherworldly athleticism left him, he became ordinary. I recall seeing Kobe years ago coming back every season with something new, to where you could tell that the guy had spent the entire summer in the gym. Vince never seemed to have that desire to diversify his game. Its why Kobe is still a top 6 player today and Vince is a benchwarmer, despite the mileage on Kobe.
VC was never the same athletically after he tore his ACL in 2002 or 2003 forgot when.
However, he did develop his game especially on the nets. One problem was before he joined the nets, and after his injury, the US media just forgot about him and stopped hyping him having signed a longterm contract with the raptors. The biggest effect this had was that he had ZERO respect from the refs and was no longer getting superstar treatment. This is 100% true.
Honestly nobody here really knows Vince's work ethic and I think he gets a bad rap because he's the type of person that smiles too much. Like in NY, I couldn't stand when the idiot callers used to call in and want to get rid of Eli Manning [B]simply because of his facial expressions and no other reason[/B]. Just because of his facial expressions they felt he didn't care. People are dumb.
And by the way, back in the day I used to defend Kobe against the people who used to say Vince was better, so it's not like I'm this huge Vince fan.
It was never about his work ethic at all. Vince has been a hard worker for most of his career and is getting high praise from Rick Carlisle for his astounding effort. It was more of his mindset. He knew his talents and leaping ability alone could get him 25-30 any given night so he just stopped there. He never pushed himself to reach his true potential. Tmac on the other hand was a player who just wanted to score 30-35 a game and if that resulted in a win, great and if not, whatever. He just cared about being the man of his team. Should have just stayed with vince in 01. :(
And if vince had shaq during his Toronto days they would have steamrolled the east and won several rings together. Vince has never had the luxury of playing with a championship supporting cast around him. Especially a center.
[QUOTE=Noob Saibot]does kobe jordan still win a title if he's not a Laker? i mean he is that gifted right?[/QUOTE]
would lebron of won if he wasnt a miami heat instead of a cavalier?
:oldlol:
GOAT if that were the case.
[quote=It's A VC3!!!]getting high praise from Rick Carlisle for his astounding effort[/quote]
What? A coach praising his player? Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssshocking!!! :facepalm
[QUOTE=jstern]Honestly nobody here really knows Vince's work ethic and I think he gets a bad rap because he's the type of person that smiles too much. Like in NY, I couldn't stand when the idiot callers used to call in and want to get rid of Eli Manning simply because of his facial expressions and no other reason. Just because of his facial expressions they felt he didn't care. People are dumb.
And by the way, back in the day I used to defend Kobe against the people who used to say Vince was better, so it's not like I'm this huge Vince fan.[/QUOTE]I agree, I've always wondered where the assumptions about his work ethic came from. Is it crazy to think Kobe's work ethic and drive were greater? Not really. But for some to take that assumption and use it to suggest Vince hardly ever worked or cared is way off base in my opinion.
Personally, I believe Vince Carter would have never been Vince Carter if he'd never worked extremely hard and pushed himself nearly to the limit. There's a lot of insane, "natural" basketball athletes out there and 99.9999% of them do not end up on Vince Carter's level.
I've always thought one of the biggest criticisms of Vince Carter has been, essentially, that he understood there was more to life than basketball and the game itself probably wasn't the most important aspect of his life. Whereas some of the all-time greats, we sort of were given the impression they lived and died with the game.
In a way, I guess these are just my ways of making excuses for Carter but at the end of the day, I don't think anyone naturally shoots nearly 38% from the arc while averaging 24ppg+ for so many years of their career while playing in the most advanced basketball league on the planet. Sometimes for who a player is, there's a peak, and Carter's peak wasn't on the same level as some of the greatest players in the history of NBA basketball. I say, so be it. It is just interesting to see the work ethic hypotheticals always pop up with Carter, as if every star player [i]except[/i] for Carter (and McGrady) is assumed to have pushed themselves to the absolute limit.
Again, no on walks onto an NBA floor and naturally does what Carter did. He pushed himself, he just wasn't as good as Kobe Bryant. He happened to be only better than 99% of every other NBA basketball player in history, not 99.9%. So be it.
Also, I'm extremely biased in Carter's favor.
Yea like some else said, it's not just work ethic, it's mind set. And Kobe had other nature abilities that Vince did (lateral quickness, handle as mentioned before).
And whoever mentioned body control as a strength for Kobe over Carter, I'd have to disagree. Kobe definitely has better foot work, but in-air body control I'd say is a wash, if not leaning towards Vince.
And about T-mac, he also had the mind set issue, but I think he himself has said that because of his talent he didn't push himself as hard in practice. But, let's not act like injuries weren't his biggest issue. They devastated his career. And you can't say his work ethic was the causes of his injuries, because he has had a bad back for a long time going all the way back to Orlando, you don't just get a bad back by not practicing or working out as much, those things are usually genetic/ chronic. Now the other injuries can be argued came from the work ethic, but even then a lot of it was related to arthritis, again something if you are going to get, can't do much to avoid. Again not saying his work ethic was great by any means, but injuries is what killed his career, the work ethic was just he nail in the coffin. he'd still be playing in the NBA if it wasn't for the injuries.
[QUOTE=swi7ch]What? A coach praising his player? Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssshocking!!! :facepalm[/QUOTE]
Sigh. Normally I ignore morons but whatever. Not every coach or player praises their athletes. Rick Carlisle keeps calling Vince a HoF players, he keeps saying how in video session the Mavericks go over Vince's plays a lot because he appreictads the effort. And he also refers to Vince as one of the most professional players he's ever coached. Not every coach says that about their players dumbass.