I heard Skip Bayless claim this a couple of days ago. What do you think?
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I heard Skip Bayless claim this a couple of days ago. What do you think?
CB34 & KJ7 is, but he is up there
Charles Barkley is rolling over in his grave.
[QUOTE=GreatHILL]CB34 & KJ7 is, but he is up there[/QUOTE]
no way is kj in the same discussion as nash. its a dead heat between nash/barkley
I've been an avid Suns fan since 1988.
Yes Nash is the greatest Sun ever, it's not even close.
Barkley second..
Daylight third.
Yep. GOAT PG (before joining Fakers), and GOAT Phoenix Suns player.
Charles only really had 1 season in Phoenix that was better than Nash. Everything else was first or second round exits.
Nash got them to 4 conference finals - three of which were lost to teams that went on to win the finals. Plus he had been there for 10 seasons to Barkley's 4.
Barkley
Nash
KJ
Westphal????
think i'm missin a few between KJ and PW
Steve Nash played in 744 regular season games for the Suns in 10 seasons and averaged 14.4/3.1/9.4.
In the playoffs, he played in 75 games and averaged 18.2/3.4/9.7.
Kevin Johnson played in 683 regular season games for the Suns in 12 seasons and averaged 18.7/3.4/9.5.
In the playoffs, he played in 105 games and averaged 19.3/3.3/8.9.
I don't see a case for Nash being a greater Sun than KJ.
[QUOTE=Odinn]Steve Nash played in 744 regular season games for the Suns in 10 seasons and averaged 14.4/3.1/9.4.
In the playoffs, he played in 75 games and averaged 18.2/3.4/9.7.
Kevin Johnson played in 683 regular season games for the Suns in 12 seasons and averaged 18.7/3.4/9.5.
In the playoffs, he played in 105 games and averaged 19.3/3.3/8.9.
I don't see a case for Nash being a greater Sun than KJ.[/QUOTE]
Floor general, face of the franchise, 2x MVP... it's Nash, hands down.
A dark horse for great PHX Suns player ever is Connie Hawkins.
I say dark horse because he only entered the NBA at age 27 (long story about being connected to shady people.)
The Suns organization honored Hawkins:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKehQLgw3pY[/url]
Yeah more than likely the 2 MVP''s make it hard to make a case against him, also his mum and dad think hes the greatest Sun ever to.
[QUOTE=Odinn]Steve Nash played in 744 regular season games for the Suns in 10 seasons and averaged 14.4/3.1/9.4.
In the playoffs, he played in 75 games and averaged 18.2/3.4/9.7.
Kevin Johnson played in 683 regular season games for the Suns in 12 seasons and averaged 18.7/3.4/9.5.
In the playoffs, he played in 105 games and averaged 19.3/3.3/8.9.
I don't see a case for Nash being a greater Sun than KJ.[/QUOTE]
KJ's stats give him a case over a lot of people all-time (e.g. Tiny Archibald, Tony Parker) and yet I [I]wouldn't[/I] take him over them - or Nash - but I can't really say why. :confusedshrug: I missed his prime by a couple of years, maybe someone older can give a fair assessment of him. I don't think stats tell the whole story.
[QUOTE=howlin_wolf]Floor general, face of the franchise, 2x MVP... it's Nash, hands down.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. 2 of the most undeserved MVPs ever and he wasn't even top 5 player in both seasons.
[QUOTE=stax]KJ's stats give him a case over a lot of people all-time (e.g. Tiny Archibald, Tony Parker) and yet I [I]wouldn't[/I] take him over them - or Nash - but I can't really say why. :confusedshrug: I missed his prime by a couple of years, maybe someone older can give a fair assessment of him. I don't think stats tell the whole story.[/QUOTE]
Kevin Johnson was a better player than Tony Parker. I don't think that's even a discussion.
As for all-time rankings, Nash is ranked higher than KJ for sure but we are talking about the Suns history.
While their rpg/apg/tpg are identical, despite playing 61 less games, KJ scored 2035 more points than Nash for the Suns franchise.
Also the only exceptional season of Nash as a Sun was 2005-06. Thanks to him, the Suns made it to the WCF. But in that years, the Suns should have gotten to the NBA Finals at least once. You can blame D'Antoni or Nash or Amar'e. But that team was loaded. Let's not act like Nash did an exceptional job aside from 2005-06 season.
1. Charles Barkley
2. Steve Nash
3. Kevin Johnson
4. Connie Hawkins
5. Paul Westphal
6. Shawn Marion
7. Amare Stoudemire
8. Walter Davis
9. Jason Kidd
10. Dan Majerle
Honorable mention: Larry Nance, Alvan Adams, Jeff Hornacek, Tom Chambers, Dick Van Arsdale.
From the (admittedly comparatively small) sample of full games I've watched from KJ, he seemed to have less of an impact on the game than Nash, raw stats aside.
KJ could score on Nash with ease. The fact that Nash couldn't guard KJ ON HiS WORST DAY just makes me want to rank KJ higher than Nash.
KJ couldn't run an offense on his best day that would be as effective as Steve Nash could on his worst day.
[QUOTE=tpols]KJ couldn't run an offense on his best day that would be as effective as Steve Nash could on his worst day.[/QUOTE]
Spoken like a man that never saw KJ, Thunder Dan, and Barkley play. Their offense was scary good AND they managed to play some defense. They just ran into Jordan and the Bulls.
Nash gets all the credit for the offenses on his teams but notice that the Mavs got better when he left and won a title without him. The man had Dirk and prime Amare.....I think they made HIM look good as well but let Nash fans tell it they owe their NBA careers to him.
Barkley was better.
Here is Barkley's best season vs Nash's (and you won't see me edit out the things that favor Nash):
Barkley: 25.6ppg, 12.2rpg, 5.1apg, 1.6stl, 1.0blk, 3.1tov, 52.0fg%, 30.5%threes, 76.5ft% Regular season MVP (62-20 team record)
Playoffs: 26.6ppg, 13.6rpg, 4.3apg, 1.6stl, 1.0blk, 2.1tov, 47.7fg%, 22.2%threes, 77.1% Lost in the NBA Finals to the Bulls
Nash: 18.8ppg, 4.2rpg, 10.5apg, 0.8stl, 0.2blk, 3.5tov, 43.9fg%, 43.9%threes, 92.1ft% Regular season MVP (54-28 team record)
Playoffs: 20.4ppg, 3.7rpg, 10.2apg, 0.4spg, 0.3blk, 3.4tov, 50.2fg%, 36.8%threes, 91.2ft%, Lost in the Conference Finals to the Mavs (playoff seedings format were changed the next season because the teams with the top 2 records met in the second round, giving the Suns a relatively easy path to the Conf Finals)
I would put Barkley over Nash, not KJ though.
[QUOTE=Odinn]Steve Nash played in 744 regular season games for the Suns in 10 seasons and averaged 14.4/3.1/9.4.
In the playoffs, he played in 75 games and averaged 18.2/3.4/9.7.
Kevin Johnson played in 683 regular season games for the Suns in 12 seasons and averaged 18.7/3.4/9.5.
In the playoffs, he played in 105 games and averaged 19.3/3.3/8.9.
I don't see a case for Nash being a greater Sun than KJ.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad you're not being retarded.
Best that I have seen, and ranked accordingly:
Charles Barkley
Steve Nash
Kevin Johnson
Jason Kidd
Stephon Marbury
Amare Stoudemire
Shawn Marion
Dan Majerle
:roll: that loser never made it to the finals
[B]EDIT: These should be Suns on Nash stats.[/B]
How do you put KJ over Nash?
[IMG]http://i.azcentral.com/i/sized/F/9/5/e298/j350/PHP4F249B108659F.jpg[/IMG]
Nash, led league in assist. KJ never once, came in 2nd once though.
Nash, five All-NBA teams including 3 first teams. KJ five All NBA teams, no first.
Nash, 6 All-Star game appearances, KJ three.
KJ, five season of 20+ ppg, Nash's high 18.8.
KJ, one NBA Finals appearances as the 2nd best player, two West Conf Finals as the best player. Nash, three West Conf Finals as the best player.
If those aren't enough to put Nash above KJ, I haven't even mentioned the 2 MVP Awards he was giving in back to back years.
KJ was top-5 in APG like 6 seasons. Can't fault him for playing in an era with other great PG's. No doubt he'd be one of the best PG's in today's game. The difference between him and Nash isn't vast.
[QUOTE=SCdac]KJ was top-5 in APG like 6 seasons. Can't fault him for playing in an era with other great PG's. No doubt he'd be one of the best PG's in today's game. The difference between him and Nash isn't vast.[/QUOTE]
In terms of ability? I think KJ is better (apart from durability) ... but Nash resume and importance to that particular franchise makes me rank Nash ahead of him in terms of greatest Phoenix player, ever.
[QUOTE=SCdac]KJ was top-5 in APG like 6 seasons. Can't fault him for playing in an era with other great PG's. No doubt he'd be one of the best PG's in today's game. [B]The difference between him and Nash isn't vast.[/B][/QUOTE]
It's not, but you can't overlook 2 MVP, no matter how much people say they were undeserved.
If you take out the 2 MVPs, it's still slightly close goin by play, accolades, ect. But with the 2 MVP,s it's impossible to put him above Nash.
without adjusting for pace, Johnson' 12.2 assists a game in 89 would have been #1 in the league in any of the last 10 seasons.
[QUOTE=Money 23]In terms of ability? I think KJ is better (apart from durability) ... but Nash resume and importance to that particular franchise makes me rank Nash ahead of him in terms of greatest Phoenix player, ever.[/QUOTE]
KJ's team went to the finals and pushed a legendary Bulls team to the brink almost.
Nash came over from the Mavs who went on to win a title without him.
Doesn't look like Nash is going to sniff the finals any time soon.
[QUOTE=Go Getter]KJ's team went to the finals and pushed a legendary Bulls team to the brink almost.
Nash came over from the Mavs who went on to win a title without him.[/QUOTE]
I know, thus my post. I know KJ's history, and Nash. Thanks for the knowledge, though.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]It's not, but you can't overlook 2 MVP, no matter how much people say they were undeserved.
If you take out the 2 MVPs, it's still slightly close goin by play, accolades, ect. But with the 2 MVP,s it's impossible to put him above Nash.[/QUOTE]
If you put prime KJ on prime Nash there is no way in hell Nash could guard him. Check out KJ on YouTube for those who aren't hip to him he was one of the best slashers EVER. His mid range J was absolutely lethal.
Nash was no slouch either but imo Nash has a lot of games where his stats belie the fact that he got shit all over on defense which made one of the other perimeter players to guard his man which makes for team wide defensive disarray at times, and losses.
I'd rather have a guy who can guard his position, which is btw, half of the game of basketball.
[QUOTE=Money 23]I know, thus my post. I know KJ's history, and Nash. Thanks for the knowledge, though.[/QUOTE]
So KJ takes the franchise to a bigger stage, scores more points in less games, has comprable numbers all around, and goes on to make the franchise look good in retirement by becoming a politician and Nash is more important how?
For getting two MVPs gifted to him?
[QUOTE=Go Getter]So KJ takes the franchise to a bigger stage, scores more points in less games, has comprable numbers all around, and goes on to make the franchise look good in retirement by becoming a politician and Nash is more important how?
For getting two MVPs gifted to him?[/QUOTE]
Look, I agree. I think KJ is the actual better basketball player. Thus why I said from an ABILITY stand point, I'd take KJ.
I mean, he tried guarding Jordan when he was zooming by Marjele, Tony Dumas, can you imagine Nash in the Finals taking on a task of guarding Jordan in order to negate penetration? Not a chance in hell.
But from a resume stand point, even if the MVPs were gifted out of context in transition years for the NBA when they wanted to get rid of the slow pace, half court ISO game, and back to free-flowing 80's style ball ... whatevers.
His resume, puts him right at the top of the Phoenix franchise, just below Chuck. KJ is absolutely, IMO the better player.
Nash in my opinion is not the best PG in Suns history. Let alone being the best player...
[QUOTE=Go Getter]KJ's team went to the finals and pushed a legendary Bulls team to the brink almost.
Nash came over from the Mavs who went on to win a title without him.
Doesn't look like Nash is going to sniff the finals any time soon.[/QUOTE]
Lol, Mavs go to the Finals after losing not only Nash, but Mike Finley and Jamison/Walker the year they joined.
What are you getting at?
[QUOTE=Money 23]Look, I agree. I think KJ is the actual better basketball player. Thus why I said from an ABILITY stand point, I'd take KJ.
I mean, he tried guarding Jordan when he was zooming by Marjele, Tony Dumas, can you imagine Nash in the Finals taking on a task of guarding Jordan in order to negate penetration? Not a chance in hell.
But from a resume stand point, even if the MVPs were gifted out of context in transition years for the NBA when they wanted to get rid of the slow pace, half court ISO game, and back to free-flowing 80's style ball ... whatevers.
His resume, puts him right at the top of the Phoenix franchise, just below Chuck. KJ is absolutely, IMO the better player.[/QUOTE]
I don't agree, but you make a damn good argument therefore I respect it. Props to you sir.
Nash was one of the top ten greatest, and most important players of the 2000's. On those merits alone, he's more important.
KJ was better, but he is not one of the top ten best, or most important players of the 90's.
[QUOTE=Go Getter]If you put prime KJ on prime Nash there is no way in hell Nash could guard him. Check out KJ on YouTube for those who aren't hip to him he was one of the best slashers EVER. His mid range J was absolutely lethal.
Nash was no slouch either but imo Nash has a lot of games where his stats belie the fact that he got shit all over on defense which made one of the other perimeter players to guard his man which makes for team wide defensive disarray at times, and losses.
I'd rather have a guy who can guard his position, which is btw, half of the game of basketball.[/QUOTE]
We all know Nash is a terrible defender, so was Barkley and a bunch of other great players.
[QUOTE=L.Kizzle]Lol, Mavs go to the Finals after losing not only Nash, but Mike Finley and Jamison/Walker the year they joined.
What are you getting at?[/QUOTE]
The brand of basketball a team must play to allow for Nash's great offense is not conducive to winning playoff games. He cannot guard his position. This is the FATAL FLAW in an otherwise superb player.
Barkley could be a good defender when motivated. Despite his flaws he is still undisputedly a top 3-5 PF and one of the best ever. To pick Nash over him imo would be tragic.
Imagine if KJ played in today's league where you can't hand check?
Bananas.