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With all the teams that need help at the PG position, Livingston is gonna make bank this off-season. He's so good on defense, he's just so long. It's really awesome to see. After that catastrophic injury he suffered with his knee, he's fully back now and showing why he was a Top 4 pick.
Hes the best player in the league on offense when Ray Allen is guarding him.
But then again, that is 95% of the league in that case.
How much we talking?
[QUOTE=Thunderfan86]How much we talking?[/QUOTE]
Millions.
[QUOTE=plowking]Millions.[/QUOTE]
WOW!!! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
[QUOTE=Thunderfan86]WOW!!! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Drevil_million_dollars.jpg[/IMG]
Nets best offer can only be $10m over three years. He's worth around $5m a year so the Nets $3m a year is not that undervalued.
[QUOTE=It's A VC3!!!]Nets best offer can only be $10m over three years. He's worth around $5m a year so the Nets $3m a year is not that undervalued.[/QUOTE]
3 years $10 vs. 3 years $15 is very undervalued. It's 50% less.
Personally I don't think his knees hold up as a starter playing 30+ a game every game. Which is what i assume someone who pays him $5M a year would expect.
Nets have him, AK, and Blatche to re-sign right?
[QUOTE=niko]3 years $10 vs. 3 years $15 is very undervalued. It's 50% less.
Personally I don't think his knees hold up as a starter playing 30+ a game every game. Which is what i assume someone who pays him $5M a year would expect.[/QUOTE]
You have been saying that since the first game of the season and Shaun has I think missed only one game so far. Why are you wishing him bad fortunes?
Had to respond to this thread to give my man some props. He has been my absolute favorite role player this year barring nobody! The man is consistent and stays under control.
You rarely even notice that he's out there but he keeps the ball moving, always makes the right play and plays good D.
I hope the nets can somehow keep him after this season
[QUOTE=plowking]Millions.[/QUOTE]
:lol
Clippers need to get him back.
[QUOTE=Boarder Patrol]Nets have him, AK, and Blatche to re-sign right?[/QUOTE]
Blatche is probably gone (he'll opt out), but IIRC AK got a two year deal.
[QUOTE=ZHAKIDD532]With all the teams that need help at the PG position, Livingston is gonna make bank this off-season. He's so good on defense, [B]he's just so long[/B]. It's really awesome to see. After that catastrophic injury he suffered with his knee, he's fully back now and showing why he was a Top 4 pick.[/QUOTE]
remember people said he's gonna be the next Magic Johnson
man,should be interesting to see what he could do without that knee injury
Can the heat get him?
[QUOTE=plowking]Hes the best player in the league on offense when Ray Allen is guarding him.
But then again, that is 95% of the league in that case.[/QUOTE]
Arent you supposed to be a heat fan? You owe last seasons title to Ray Allens clutch 3. I wouldnt count him out of doing something similar this year either with Mr LeDisappearing act on your squad..
I don't mean to be a naysayer or a hater, because I'm a huge fan of Shaun (and have been since he entered the league), but the major difference between his stats this season and season's past is simply playing time.
He's a low turnover, 12, 5 and 5 guy in 36 minutes and has been his whole career. He either a) couldn't get on the floor or b) didn't get the opportunity from his team in years gone by, hence his low minutes and poor numbers. What the Nets have given him is an opportunity - I'm not sure he's really improved all that much.
Fact is, not too many teams are going to pay good money for a guy who's not an elite* defender and can't shoot 3's. He's like Tony Allen only without the lockdown defense or George Hill if George Hill's range was 13 feet.
He also has way too many games where he plays 22 minutes and has 2 points and 3 boards. He balances them out with "big" nights of 20 and 8 but he's hit and miss. Some games he looks like a spectator - chills in the corner with no one guarding him, being ignored by the other 9 players.
He's a backup PG or a spot starter, IMHO. 13-25 minutes a night. Mistake free basketball. Occasional big game. To be honest, I'm not sure the Nets are much better off with Shaun than they would have been if they'd just kept CJ Watson, who's making $2 mil with Indiana as a backup this year.
* Shaun's good but he's not All-NBA level
[QUOTE=It's A VC3!!!]You have been saying that since the first game of the season and Shaun has I think missed only one game so far. Why are you wishing him bad fortunes?[/QUOTE]
I'm not wishing him bad fortune, i'm just stating the truth. I don't need to be right but look at his history, this is a guy who always was hurt prior to the injury (ankle, knee, etc.) and then had a catastrophic injury. Saying that I think he'll never get hurt again isn't be wishing him well, it's me being delusional. If I'm wrong and he's never hurt again, great. But as a GM i'm not taking that bet for too much money.
[QUOTE=coin24]Arent you supposed to be a heat fan? You owe last seasons title to Ray Allens clutch 3. I wouldnt count him out of doing something similar this year either with Mr LeDisappearing act on your squad..[/QUOTE]
Very relevant to the claim "Ray Allen is a horrible defender" which PlowKing is correct about.
[B]At his age and injury history I dont think too many teams see him as a starter. I do wish him the best though and hope he finally gets a multi-year deal finally. If only he had range.[/B]
[QUOTE=niko]I'm not wishing him bad fortune, i'm just stating the truth. I don't need to be right but look at his history, this is a guy who always was hurt prior to the injury (ankle, knee, etc.) and then had a catastrophic injury. Saying that I think he'll never get hurt again isn't be wishing him well, it's me being delusional. If I'm wrong and he's never hurt again, great. But as a GM i'm not taking that bet for too much money.[/QUOTE]
I agree, kind of like how saying Amare will get hurt is also just stating the truth.
Next to Joe, Shaun has been our most consistent player. He's our best driver to the hope, best wing defender, and he's been better at initiating the offense than Deron has all season.
Since becoming a permanent starter, Shaun has blossomed and is very much a reason for our recent success. I hope he stays a Net, but he's worked hard and earned his payday. I hope to see him succeed.
[QUOTE=32MJ32]I don't mean to be a naysayer or a hater, because I'm a huge fan of Shaun (and have been since he entered the league), but the major difference between his stats this season and season's past is simply playing time.
He's a low turnover, 12, 5 and 5 guy in 36 minutes and has been his whole career. He either a) couldn't get on the floor or b) didn't get the opportunity from his team in years gone by, hence his low minutes and poor numbers. What the Nets have given him is an opportunity - I'm not sure he's really improved all that much.
[B]Fact is, not too many teams are going to pay good money for a guy who's not an elite* defender and can't shoot 3's. He's like Tony Allen only without the lockdown defense or George Hill if George Hill's range was 13 feet.[/B]
He also has way too many games where he plays 22 minutes and has 2 points and 3 boards. He balances them out with "big" nights of 20 and 8 but he's hit and miss. Some games he looks like a spectator - chills in the corner with no one guarding him, being ignored by the other 9 players.
He's a backup PG or a spot starter, IMHO. 13-25 minutes a night. Mistake free basketball. Occasional big game. To be honest, I'm not sure the Nets are much better off with Shaun than they would have been if they'd just kept CJ Watson, who's making $2 mil with Indiana as a backup this year.
* Shaun's good but he's not All-NBA level[/QUOTE]
Maybe if Tony Allen and George Hill were a long 6'7 instead of 6'3, and had elite passing playmaking skills and an effective post/midrange game. Thats a terrible comparison
Also Livingston works well the Nets small ball line up with Pierce at the 4 because he can shot the 3 to compensate for Livingston inability there.
Livingston can get his shot off very easily over smaller defenders because he's always one of the taller guards at there at all time, and knows where to be on offense.
[QUOTE=clipps]Bobcats need to get him back.[/QUOTE]
fixed :D
a PG who can't shoot the 3 ball & has a PER of 14 with 54%TS
I think he gets 2-3 mil a year at best, teams that would throw multi-year deals with anything more than 3 mil a year would be stupid. He is not worth the money.
[QUOTE=Brokenbeat]Blatche is probably gone (he'll opt out), but IIRC AK got a two year deal.[/QUOTE]
Kirilenko was a one year deal as was Andray Blatche. Blatche took the minimum for the 2nd straight year similar to how JR did with the Knicks and hopes to get paid how jr did
[QUOTE=Nets fan 93]Kirilenko was a one year deal as was Andray Blatche. Blatche took the minimum for the 2nd straight year similar to how JR did with the Knicks and hopes to get paid how jr did[/QUOTE]
and quite possibly will go into full douchebag mode once he has a several year deal just like JR did. It's a dream of mine that Blatche gets a 4 year $32-$36 type deal with the Nets. It will be non stop entertainment, good and bad.
[QUOTE=niko]and quite possibly will go into full douchebag mode once he has a several year deal just like JR did. It's a dream of mine that Blatche gets a 4 year $32-$36 type deal with the Nets. It will be non stop entertainment, good and bad.[/QUOTE]
Blatche is not like JR though, and you and the rest of the global population is aware of that. Blatche has been an angel in the two years that he has been with us on a minimum contract. JR was still stupid while being on a minimum last season. That should tell you everything you need to know about him.
I can't believe you think he will turn into JR 2.0 just because of a contract. He's shown no signs of the sort in the past two years but apparently it is a "dream" of yours. Why do you like dreaming about the demise of the Nets? I know we took over New York but don't hate us for it, hate Dolan.
[QUOTE=wang4three]Next to Joe, Shaun has been our most consistent player. He's our best driver to the hope, best wing defender, and he's been better at initiating the offense than Deron has all season.
Since becoming a permanent starter, Shaun has blossomed and is very much a reason for our recent success. I hope he stays a Net, but he's worked hard and earned his payday. I hope to see him succeed.[/QUOTE]
Joe is a very consistent 8 point per game scorer.
[QUOTE=ProfessorMurder]Joe is a very consistent 8 point per game scorer.[/QUOTE]
It's relative. If you look at Livingston's box scores you'll see the same amount of inconsistency as well. They're on more than they are off, but by no means am I saying that every night we can expect the same production. But relative the rest of our guys? Yeah, they're the most consistent.
Consistency is something we will continue to struggle with through the playoffs. It's why I don't think we'll go that far.
I loved him when he played for us. Can defend, can score, plus he towers over the other PG's.
[QUOTE=wang4three]It's relative. If you look at Livingston's box scores you'll see the same amount of inconsistency as well. They're on more than they are off, but by no means am I saying that every night we can expect the same production. But relative the rest of our guys? Yeah, they're the most consistent.
Consistency is something we will continue to struggle with through the playoffs. It's why I don't think we'll go that far.[/QUOTE]
Joe has been atrocious in the second half of the season. I'm too scared to look at the numbers. He was spectacular in January and great in the first half of the season, particularly first quarters. He has been very passive as of late. He needs to have a similar mindset as Pierce. When the game was going back and fourth in the fourth quarter vs. the Heat Pierce willingly took the reins and drove to the basket or shot a good looking shot. It's not playoff time but when it is we cannot have Joe have any 8 point games whatsoever. He needs to be at 15+ at all times. Deron too. No way that Mario should keep him from scoring double digits.
[QUOTE=32MJ32]I don't mean to be a naysayer or a hater, because I'm a huge fan of Shaun (and have been since he entered the league), but the major difference between his stats this season and season's past is simply playing time.
He's a low turnover, 12, 5 and 5 guy in 36 minutes and has been his whole career. He either a) couldn't get on the floor or b) didn't get the opportunity from his team in years gone by, hence his low minutes and poor numbers. What the Nets have given him is an opportunity - I'm not sure he's really improved all that much.
Fact is, not too many teams are going to pay good money for a guy who's not an elite* defender and can't shoot 3's. He's like Tony Allen only without the lockdown defense or George Hill if George Hill's range was 13 feet.
He also has way too many games where he plays 22 minutes and has 2 points and 3 boards. He balances them out with "big" nights of 20 and 8 but he's hit and miss. Some games he looks like a spectator - chills in the corner with no one guarding him, being ignored by the other 9 players.
He's a backup PG or a spot starter, IMHO. 13-25 minutes a night. Mistake free basketball. Occasional big game. To be honest, I'm not sure the Nets are much better off with Shaun than they would have been if they'd just kept CJ Watson, who's making $2 mil with Indiana as a backup this year.
* Shaun's good but he's not All-NBA level[/QUOTE]
If you're such a big fan of his, you'd know how amazing he's been defensively this year. You'd know that the Nets are 8 points better per 100 possessions on defense when he is on the floor compared to off.
In this league where you NEED a guy who can guard quick guards, Livingston is going to be in huge demand.
[QUOTE=tpols]Maybe if Tony Allen and George Hill were a long 6'7 instead of 6'3, and had elite passing playmaking skills and an effective post/midrange game. Thats a terrible comparison[/QUOTE]
Elite passing? Effective post/midrange? He averages like 4 assists and scores 11 points per 36 on 45% shooting. I'm not sure he's anything better than average at either of those things.
Anyway, i's not a terrible comparison - you just misinterpreted it. All 3 guys are 4th or 5th bananas who get minutes for good teams because of how good they are defensively. Those are the sort of guys Shaun will be up against on the free agent market - Hill/Allen/Sefolosha types.
Is he "gonna get paid" more than those guys given he can't shoot 3's like Hill or Sefolosha or really clamp guys like Tony Allen? That's my point. At best, he's a poor man's Iguodala - a wing guy who can defend, handle the rock and make plays, but even Iggy can hit 3's at a league average rate.
I'm not sure the market for Shaun is going to be as hot as this thread claims it will be.
[QUOTE=ZHAKIDD532]If you're such a big fan of his, you'd know how amazing he's been defensively this year. You'd know that the Nets are 8 points better per 100 possessions on defense when he is on the floor compared to off.
In this league where you NEED a guy who can guard quick guards, Livingston is going to be in huge demand.[/QUOTE]
1. That says as much about the other wings/guards on Brooklyn as it does Shaun. I don't think anyone would accuse Joe Johnson or Deron of being defensive specialists
2.You also need to account for the fact that he plays most of his minutes with the starters, including KG, who's far-and-away Brooklyn's leader in defensive rating this season and historically one of the best of all-time in defensive +-
I didn't say Shaun was a bad defender, I just said he's not All-NBA level. Can you honestly see him making an All-NBA team?
And again, why would I want Shaun's good-to-great defense and zero outside shooting over a guy like Patrick Beverley's good-to-great defense and decent outside shooting?
Shaun will get another job but I'm not sure he's going to be in "huge demand" and field "$30m over 5 years" type offers.
[QUOTE=It's A VC3!!!]Joe has been atrocious in the second half of the season. I'm too scared to look at the numbers. He was spectacular in January and great in the first half of the season, particularly first quarters. He has been very passive as of late. He needs to have a similar mindset as Pierce. When the game was going back and fourth in the fourth quarter vs. the Heat Pierce willingly took the reins and drove to the basket or shot a good looking shot. It's not playoff time but when it is we cannot have Joe have any 8 point games whatsoever. He needs to be at 15+ at all times. Deron too. No way that Mario should keep him from scoring double digits.[/QUOTE]
He had a bad February but his March has been on par, if not better than his January numbers. In the end, this is the way the team will be, even in the playoffs. We just have to hope that one of the three: Deron, Paul, or Joe can have alternating hot quarters and streaks. We're not built for all of them to be on at the same time. It's not their game and it's not the way they play. While Joe and Deron have been playing more cohesively after almost two seasons together, they still are working on it. Add Pierce to the fold who also requires the ball to be effective, it's going to be a patient process.
In the end, we're going to have games where we struggle to score despite having good scorers. We need to just hope our defense covers up that hole like Shaun did last night.
[QUOTE=jbryan1984]I loved him when he played for us. Can defend, can score, plus he towers over the other PG's.[/QUOTE]
Have to say, I didn't like the decision to let him go. The team made a drastic turnaround last year immediately after they picked him up. He almost single-handedly turned the bench from one of the worst in the league to above average.
I'm not surprised in the least that he has been a success with Brooklyn.