Wilt Chamberlain scoring highlights 1960-1968

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]I hope I have finally put an end to these complete MYTHS and even LIES regarding Chamberlain in his post-season play.

And to get back to the REAL topic here...

I can't wait for CavsFan video, which will completely stamp out the Fatal's of this world.

And this footage will CLEARLY depict a SKILLFUL Chamberlain, making a wide variety of remarkable shots, with exceptional foot-work and unequaled athleticism.

However, keep in mind that this footage is only about TWO-PERCENT of Chamberlain's NBA career. And there is absolutely ZERO footage of any of Chamberlain's 271 40+ point games (or 122 50+ point games, or 32 60+ point games.) None of his 132 40-30 games (or 32 50-30 games, or his 28 60-20 games, or his 8 40-40 games, or his 5 50-40 games.) None of his 15-15 FGA/FGA games, (or 16-16, or 18-18, or 18-19 games.) No footage from his 22-25-21 game (or his 53-32-14 game.)

The facts are...there is simply no footage available, of Wilt at his unfathomable best...[/QUOTE]
IMO what stands out the most in his footage is his sheer size and strength and physical presence. I think it needs to be made clear what Fatal9 perpetuated was a notion that in order for others to consider Wilt to be ''a good offensive player" he must have the ability to travel, I mean use the footwork and up and under moves that Hakeem used. Fatal9 and the people who supported his discussions all failed to grasp just how big and strong Wilt was. Fatal9 wanted people to look at only certain characteristics of Wilt's game, the 'bar' as it were for assessing Wilt's scoring ability, was according to Fatal9, quickness, footwork, fluidity and use of deception. Basically, Fatal9 and those who bought into his evaluation of Wilt's offensive abilities all failed entirely to understand what Chamberlain brought to the table against a defense.

Wilt is a giant compared to Hakeem, both in strength and in size. He didn't need ANY of that footwork to create the same, and many times even better scoring opportunities. Wilt could get so much deeper in the post just bumping his man off him like tissue paper. Hakeem couldn't do that. Hakeem [I]needed[/I] his quickness and deception to drop 25 a night, he needed to get around you because he couldn't straight go through you or over top of you the way Wilt could. Wilt could back right into you and bump you out of the way or score over top of you, no matter what his footwork looks like Wilt's physical tools give him the advantage over Hakeem. That said, Wilt was indeed a helluva lot more skilled than Fatal9 implied. Using a wide array of moves and displaying a much greater amount of body control than Fatal's 2 minute "Wilt posting up" nonsense.

And to reiterate just how DOMINANT Chamberlain was at EVERY aspect of the game...

He had an entire season, covering 12 H2H games, in which he just obliterated Willis Reed. How about 38.6 ppg on a .531 eFG% (in a league that shot an eFG% of .426.) Included were carpet-bombings of 37-22, 46-25, 41-9, 52-23, and even 58-28.)

He battled a prime Bellamy in 20 straight H2H's, over the course of two straight seasons, and averaged 43.7 ppg in one 10 game season, and then... 52.7 ppg in the other. The beatdowns are just too numerous to list, but needless to say, he had a total of THREE 60+ games against him, including a 73-36 battering.

Russell? The greatest defensive center of all-time. Think about this...the two went H2H 143 times, and Wilt AVERAGED 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg against him, and all at about a 50% eFG% (in leagues that averaged about .430.) And in MANY of them he just demolished him. Again, too many to list, except that he had 24 40+ games against him, including five of 50+, and a high game of 62 (on 27-45 shooting.) Against a PRIME RUSSELL. And while he was crushing him in terms of offense in those 143 games, he was dramatically reducing Russell's own efficiencis, by considerably greater margins that what Russell could do to him. Oh, and he waxed Russell in the vast majority of their rebounding battles (a 92-43-8 margin...and many by overwhelming margins....including an unfathomable 55-19 margin in one.)

Thurmond. Keep in mind that a peak Kareem faced a aging Thurmond in 40 H2H games (before Nate's 73-74 season, when he was just a shell), and his high game was only 34 points (over the course of all 50 H2H's BTW.) Not only that, but Kareem could only shoot an eFG% of .440 in that span. And in the post-season, it was even worse. KAJ shot .486, .428, and even .405 against Nate.

How about a prime Wilt? Think about this, from their last H2H game in '65, thru their nine H2H's in '66, and into their first meeting in '67...a total of 11 H2H games, Wilt had SIX 30+ games against Nate...which was one more than a peak Kareem had in his 40 H2H's with Thurmond. Included were whippings of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and an unbelievable 45-13 bashing. And a prime Wilt, against a peak Thurmond, in '67, and covering six H2H games, averaged 21 ppg on... get this... a .633 eFG%. And then in the Finals, he outscored a peak Thurmond, 17.5 ppg to 14.3 ppg...all while outshooting him by an unfathomable .560 to .343 margin.

How about H2H's with Dierking, and Imhoff. MANY 50+ point games, including 60+ point games (and even a 100 point game.) And just the year before KAJ came into the league, Wilt hung a 60 point game on Jim Fox.

A peak Kareem would face ALL of those centers in his career (and most of them were well past their primes, too), and never once came within the other side of the Galaxy of the kind of obliterations that a Prime Chamberlain had leveled those same centers by.

And, as we all should know by now...

A 38-39 year old KAJ, in a span of two straight regular seasons, covering 10 straight games, averaged 32 ppg on a .621 eFG% against Hakeem. Included were games of 40, 43, and even a 46 point explosion (and on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) Hell, a 37-41 year old Kareem, in his 23 career H2H's with a 23-26 year old Hakeem outscored him, and outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin from the floor. And in his eight career H2H's with Patrick Ewing, a 39-40 year old Kareem outscored him by a 21-19 ppg margin, and ousthot him by a .581 to .446 margin. Included was a game in which a 39 year old Kareem outscored Patrick by a 40-9 margin, and outshot him by a 15-22 to 3-17 margin.


Now...ask yourself this...

just what would a PRIME Chamberlain have been capable of against the best centers of the 80's...the same centers who would be among the best centers of the 90's?

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Why, should bigs be penalized for being more likely to make the shots they take? Accuracy isn't just a footnote. In fact, they are what make big men so valuable around the hoop. There is no reason not to bring up accuracy when assessing the offense of many of the great big men past or present.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying accuracy isn't important but let's use TS% which also takes free throws into account and is a more comprehensive measure of efficiency. By FG% alone we know bigs are way ahead of guards but overall many great guards can actually be more efficient than the great centers.

As for LAZERUSS he keeps pasting a lot info that has nothing to do with postseason scoring... I'll respond to the relevant points.

[QUOTE]And how did this "exposed" Chamberlain play against RUSSELL and his swarming teammates in those 30 games? He averaged 30.5 ppg, on a .507 eFG% and in post-season NBA's that shot about .420 in that span.[/QUOTE]

[B]Postseason Scoring vs. Boston:[/B]

West ('62 to '70) - 32.7 ppg on 55.1 %TS (45 games)

Baylor ('62 and '63) - 37.5 ppg on 52.1 %TS (13 games)

Oscar ('63, '64, and '66) - 31.4 ppg on 53.8 %TS (17 games)

Wilt ('60, '62, '64, '65, and '66) - 30.5 ppg on 52.2 %TS (30 games)

[B]Postseason Scoring Overall:[/B]

West ('62-'70) - 31.8 ppg on 48.3 %FG/55.6 %TS (108 games)

Baylor ('60-'63) - 35.8 ppg on 45.3 %FG/52.1 %TS (47 games)

Oscar ('62-'67) - 29.7 ppg on 46.1 %FG/56.6 %TS (39 games)

Wilt ('60-'66) - 32.8 ppg on 50.5 %FG/52.0 %TS (52 games)


Denial in the face of facts!

Again which player was a better postseason scorer than Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem in their respective eras?

So tired fo Jlauber's (Lazeruss) bogus excuses about how Wilt only played few of his playoff games in his "scoring" prime. He's acting like it's a turn off and on button.

Does that even make any sense to start with? He and alot of other Wilt fans are acting like Wilt just decided that he wanted to stop scoring just because of the sake of it.

Wilt dropped big time in the playoffs in terms of scoring, even in his "scoring" prime he dropped in both FG% and scoring average. Yes, he has amazing scoring seasons in the regular season, bravo, really.

But he was a different animal in the playoffs, we always see CavaliersFTW spam about the fact that Wilt scored 60 points or more 32 times in his career. What he never mention is that none of them were in the playoffs.

And the sad part of it all is that Wilt never even won in his "scoring prime", he won in '67 when he had the tied 2nd highest point per game average in the playoffs of that team. And in '72 he was only the 4th best scorer.

[B]Here we have the perfect example of a stat padder, he never won anything in his "scoring" prime and he always dropped big time in the playoffs in terms of scoring and FG% and he won when others took over the scoring for him. [/B]

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]And to reiterate just how DOMINANT Chamberlain was at EVERY aspect of the game...

He had an entire season, covering 12 H2H games, in which he just obliterated Willis Reed. How about 38.6 ppg on a .531 eFG% (in a league that shot an eFG% of .426.) Included were carpet-bombings of 37-22, 46-25, 41-9, 52-23, and even 58-28.)

He battled a prime Bellamy in 20 straight H2H's, over the course of two straight seasons, and averaged 43.7 ppg in one 10 game season, and then... 52.7 ppg in the other. The beatdowns are just too numerous to list, but needless to say, he had a total of THREE 60+ games against him, including a 73-36 battering.

Russell? The greatest defensive center of all-time. Think about this...the two went H2H 143 times, and Wilt AVERAGED 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg against him, and all at about a 50% eFG% (in leagues that averaged about .430.) And in MANY of them he just demolished him. Again, too many to list, except that he had 24 40+ games against him, including five of 50+, and a high game of 62 (on 27-45 shooting.) Against a PRIME RUSSELL. And while he was crushing him in terms of offense in those 143 games, he was dramatically reducing Russell's own efficiencis, by considerably greater margins that what Russell could do to him. Oh, and he waxed Russell in the vast majority of their rebounding battles (a 92-43-8 margin...and many by overwhelming margins....including an unfathomable 55-19 margin in one.)

Thurmond. Keep in mind that a peak Kareem faced a aging Thurmond in 40 H2H games (before Nate's 73-74 season, when he was just a shell), and his high game was only 34 points (over the course of all 50 H2H's BTW.) Not only that, but Kareem could only shoot an eFG% of .440 in that span. And in the post-season, it was even worse. KAJ shot .486, .428, and even .405 against Nate.

How about a prime Wilt? Think about this, from their last H2H game in '65, thru their nine H2H's in '66, and into their first meeting in '67...a total of 11 H2H games, Wilt had SIX 30+ games against Nate...which was one more than a peak Kareem had in his 40 H2H's with Thurmond. Included were whippings of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and an unbelievable 45-13 bashing. And a prime Wilt, against a peak Thurmond, in '67, and covering six H2H games, averaged 21 ppg on... get this... a .633 eFG%. And then in the Finals, he outscored a peak Thurmond, 17.5 ppg to 14.3 ppg...all while outshooting him by an unfathomable .560 to .343 margin.

How about H2H's with Dierking, and Imhoff. MANY 50+ point games, including 60+ point games (and even a 100 point game.) And just the year before KAJ came into the league, Wilt hung a 60 point game on Jim Fox.

A peak Kareem would face ALL of those centers in his career (and most of them were well past their primes, too), and never once came within the other side of the Galaxy of the kind of obliterations that a Prime Chamberlain had leveled those same centers by.

And, as we all should know by now...

A 38-39 year old KAJ, in a span of two straight regular seasons, covering 10 straight games, averaged 32 ppg on a .621 eFG% against Hakeem. Included were games of 40, 43, and even a 46 point explosion (and on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) Hell, a 37-41 year old Kareem, in his 23 career H2H's with a 23-26 year old Hakeem outscored him, and outshot him by a .607 to .512 margin from the floor. And in his eight career H2H's with Patrick Ewing, a 39-40 year old Kareem outscored him by a 21-19 ppg margin, and ousthot him by a .581 to .446 margin. Included was a game in which a 39 year old Kareem outscored Patrick by a 40-9 margin, and outshot him by a 15-22 to 3-17 margin.


Now...ask yourself this...

just what would a PRIME Chamberlain have been capable of against the best centers of the 80's...the same centers who would be among the best centers of the 90's?[/QUOTE]

This is just bogus cherry picking, I mean, you wrote all that text for nothing. You cherry pick what you want to mention, you make the most one sided post and then you act like you just convinced the world about how amazing Wilt was.

No one but CavaliersFTW agrees with your rants, and he even called you out for being a jackass.

[QUOTE=dankok8]I'm not saying accuracy isn't important but let's use TS% which also takes free throws into account and is a more comprehensive measure of efficiency. By FG% alone we know bigs are way ahead of guards but overall many great guards can actually be more efficient than the great centers.

As for LAZERUSS he keeps pasting a lot info that has nothing to do with postseason scoring... I'll respond to the relevant points.



Postseason Scoring vs. Boston:

West ('62 to '70) - 32.7 ppg on 55.1 %TS (45 games)

Baylor ('62 and '63) - 37.5 ppg on 52.1 %TS (13 games)

Oscar ('63, '64, and '66) - 31.4 ppg on 53.8 %TS (17 games)

Wilt ('60, '62, '64, '65, and '66) - 30.5 ppg on 52.2 %TS (30 games)

Denial in the face of facts!

Again which player was a better postseason scorer than Jordan, Shaq, and Kareem in their respective eras?[/QUOTE]

RUSSELL was NOT the primary defender on West, Baylor, and Oscar, and you KNOW it.

And all of the above is in a VERY limited amount of games, too. My god, Baylor had 13 games against Boston, and BTW, he shot .445 from the field against them in those 13 games.

Now, the REAL argument should have been, had Wilt not faced the Celtics in 60% of his post-season games during his prime "scoring" seasons, and instead had the free passes that Baylor and West had in the west, what would have his scoring and effciency looked like? Hell, what kind of numbers would he have put up facing the LAKERS in those years????? He was ROUTINELY shelling them for 60+ point games (SIX of them). And we know that Russell put up post-seasons of 23 ppg on a .543 eFG%; 23 ppg on a .538 eFG%; and 18 ppg on a .702 eFG% against those same Laker teams in the Finals. I can't even begin to imagine the wreckage that Chamberlain would have left LA with.

And you keep forgetting that Chamberlain missed the playoffs entirely in his 62-63 season (and certainly not his fault) in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG%. Oh, and BTW, he averaged 38.1 ppg against RUSSELL in their NINE regular season H2H's that year too.

How many times did West, or Baylor miss the post-season in their primes? And we know that Oscar missed it TWICE in his.

And all of the above ties into KAJ, MJ, and Shaq in their scoring primes. Fortunately for them, they didn't face their greatest defensive antagonists in 60% of their playoff games. If they had, you can be sure that their numbers would have looked much worse.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

And all of the above ties into KAJ, MJ, and Shaq in their scoring primes. Fortunately for them, they didn't face their greatest defensive antagonists in 60% of their playoff games. If they had, you can be sure that their numbers would have looked much worse.[/QUOTE]

This is just false information and you basically lying.

Wilt played in an era with defensive schemes that can't be compared to the modern era, his biggest competition was Bill Russell. Wilt was way taller than Russell and yet you have failed to prove your nonsense about how Wilt was "swarmed" and triple teamed by his opponents.

The footage that is out there in the match-ups between Wilt and Russell you clearly see that Russell is defending Wilt mostly by himself, even though Wilt was way taller. Non-existing swarming defense and no constant double and triple teams.

And Wilt dropped big time in the playoffs in terms of scoring, not only against Russell but overall.

[QUOTE=millwad]This is just false information and you basically lying.

Wilt played in an era with defensive schemes that can't be compared to the modern era, his biggest competition was Bill Russell. Wilt was way taller than Russell and yet you have failed to prove your nonsense about how Wilt was "swarmed" and triple teamed by his opponents.

The footage that is out there in the match-ups between Wilt and Russell you clearly see that Russell is defending Wilt mostly by himself, even though Wilt was way taller. Non-existing swarming defense and no constant double and triple teams.

And Wilt dropped big time in the playoffs in terms of scoring, not only against Russell but overall.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wEzEHPZi3w[/url]

Just a PORTION of ONE game of their 143 H2H games...

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS][url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wEzEHPZi3w[/url][/QUOTE]

This is just sad, you really don't know anything at all about basketball.

What you think is "swarming" defense with double and triple team is a team not spreading the court and players momentarily being next to Wilt due the fact that their own man is packing the lane.

So all those posts about "swarming defenses" and how Wilt was the most "doubled and tripled" player of all-time is something you based on garbage like this.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]RUSSELL was NOT the primary defender on West, Baylor, and Oscar, and you KNOW it.

And all of the above is in a VERY limited amount of games, too. My god, Baylor had 13 games against Boston, and BTW, he shot .445 from the field against them in those 13 games.

Now, the REAL argument should have been, had Wilt not faced the Celtics in 60% of his post-season games during his prime "scoring" seasons, and instead had the free passes that Baylor and West had in the west, what would have his scoring and effciency looked like? Hell, what kind of numbers would he have put up facing the LAKERS in those years????? He was ROUTINELY shelling them for 60+ point games (SIX of them). And we know that Russell put up post-seasons of 23 ppg on a .543 eFG%; 23 ppg on a .538 eFG%; and 18 ppg on a .702 eFG% against those same Laker teams in the Finals. I can't even begin to imagine the wreckage that Chamberlain would have left LA with.

And you keep forgetting that Chamberlain missed the playoffs entirely in his 62-63 season (and certainly not his fault) in a season in which he averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG%. Oh, and BTW, he averaged 38.1 ppg against RUSSELL in their NINE regular season H2H's that year too.

How many times did West, or Baylor miss the post-season in their primes? And we know that Oscar missed it TWICE in his.

And all of the above ties into KAJ, MJ, and Shaq in their scoring primes. Fortunately for them, they didn't face their greatest defensive antagonists in 60% of their playoff games. If they had, you can be sure that their numbers would have looked much worse.[/QUOTE]

You can't have it both ways LAZERUSS. If Russell was so great at shutting down Wilt and his teammates who shot terribly... then you must respect him as a player as great if not greater than Wilt. Clearly Russell had enormous impact on his team, on defense and leadership and he made strategic plays. And yet you scoff at those who say Russell > Wilt.

Truth is West and Baylor didn't have it much if any easier with KC and Hondo on them and then if they beat their defenders Russ was there lurking in the paint.

Wilt had a terrific series against the Hawks in '64 but so did Baylor and West in many years.

Your double standards are funny. First you make case for Wilt for missing the playoffs in '63 which probably lowered his playoff numbers but then you rip Oscar for missing in in '61 in what was an amazing season for him statistically.

Bottom line is your counterarguments are weak. [B]You love stats and stats say West and Baylor >> Wilt in the playoffs and Oscar has a strong case as well. [/B]

[QUOTE=millwad]This is just sad, you really don't know anything at all about basketball.

What you think is "swarming" defense with double and triple team is a team not spreading the court and players momentarily being next to Wilt due the fact that their own man is packing the lane.

So all those posts about "swarming defenses" and how Wilt was the most "doubled and tripled" player of all-time is something you based on garbage like this.[/QUOTE]

When you provide me with full game footage from Wilt's 1200 career NBA games, I'll get back to you...

And BTW, why don't you take the time to read thru this...

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9461568&postcount=247[/url]

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]When you provide me with full game footage from Wilt's 1200 career NBA games, I'll get back to you...[/QUOTE]

This is the same answer you give everyone when they confront you regarding the lies about the defense Wilt faced.

What you're doing is believing in fairy tales and biased assumptions rather than judging the defense based on the footage we actually have.

So it's completely fine for you to go on rants about rumours, stories and myths about how amazing Wilt was but you think it's unfair to judge the defense based on what it actually was.

And you sent the link to that game footage because you actually thought it would prove your case but that is just you not knowing what you're talking about. You don't even know the fundamentals of basketball and you just showed us.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]

And BTW, why don't you take the time to read thru this...

[url]http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9461568&postcount=247[/url][/QUOTE]

You've spammed that link a thousand times, I am talking about actual footage, FOOTAGE.

The reason why you can't find what you want to find is because it doesn't exist. The most obvious part is that Heinsohn talked about the Celtics being one of the first teams trying to use a team concept to stop Wilt, that is how under-developed the league was. A league that just started to try to think about team defense.

There is no footage which proves anything you like to claim about the so called massive swarming double and triple teams. The best you can find and what I could find was Wilt's team doing a shitty job spreading the floor and Wilt holding the ball too long in his hands which resulted in him getting a player on him momentarily.

[QUOTE=LAZERUSS]Flat out lie...

[B]A prime Oscar (from 60-68) played in 22 playoff games against non-Boston teams, and averaged 28.4 ppg on .486 eFG%.[/B]

[B]A prime Baylor (from 60-63 and only 4 seasons BTW) played in 34 playoff games against non-Boston teams, and averaged 35.2 ppg on .457 eFG%[/B].

[B]A prime West (from 62-70) played in 62 non-Boston games and averaged 31.4 ppg on an eFG% of .491[/B].

[B]A prime Wilt played in 22 non-Boston games, and averaged 36.0 ppg on a .503 eFG%[/B].


Wilt was easily the best SCORER of the group.

Of course, the Wilt-bashers will never mention that Chamberlain's horrific 62-63 roster was so bad, that his team didn't make the playoffs, ... in a season in which Wilt averaged 44.8 ppg on a .528 eFG% (and averaged 38 ppg against Russell in nine H2H's.)

And before some idiot claims that Wilt was a "loser" in 62-63 (despite leading the league in 15 statistical categories, including running away with the scoring title, and setting a then FG% record), ...how about Oscar? A prime Oscar missed TWO playoff seasons ('61 and '68.)



And I get so sick-and-tired of the FLAWED TS%'s. In any case, we know that when was those four players were DEFENDED, Chamberlain was a considerably better, and more efficient shooter.

The reality was, Chamberlain's "scoring prime" only involved 52 playoff games, 30 of which came against Russell's Celtics. Had he been in the Western Conference in all of those seven seasons (and made the playoffs in '63), he likely would have been slaughtering the Lakers year-after-year (win or lose.) Hell, in the one season in which he was in the Western Conference, he averaged 38.6 ppg on an eFG% of .559 and in a seven game series.[/QUOTE]

It's hilarious to pick years to fit your agenda. I showed their whole stats, no cherry picking, during Russell's era.

If Russell was the only "thing" to keep Wilt from multiple titles, then please answer to this questions:

- if Wilt was so dominant scorer why he didn't led his teams to better offensive results (ortg)? Sure, weak supporting cast might explain something (but still, Arizin, Gola and Rodgers weren't bad offensive - overall, not only scoring - players), but why Pistons in 1960 with Howell and Shue as best players were better offensively than Warriors? Or NYK with Guerin and Sears? Similar story next year and on several other occasions.

- if we he was so good scorer why he stopped to be volume scorer in 1967 season and his team was so much better offensively? Why his COACH wanted him to shot less if his scoring was unstoppable?

- why Chamberlain was traded three times (including one time during his absolute PEAK)? What other superstars were traded a couple of times during their primes?

- why his team didn't advance to playoffs in 1963? Weak supporting cast? So why Pistons with Howell and DeBusschere did?

- why he didn't dominate injured Reed in G7 of 1970 finals?