ISH Group Project: Ranking the top 25 NBA guards of all-time

[QUOTE=RRR3]You have to consider that McGrady's peak shits on most of those guys you listed. He's had a better career than Cousy, DWill and KJ IMO. Certainly Dwill who hasn't played long enough. VC's peak was pretty great too. One thing that always shocks me is how good of a 3pt shooter VC was.[/QUOTE]
Oh I agree. I think if Tmac gave a shit he's a top 20 player. I wouldn't say he's had a better career than those guys for sure though. Specifically Cousy. I think when judging guys before the modern era. You have to take into account how well they dominated it. And with the exception of Oscar, he was above all his peers.

D-will's had some pretty good effective seasons. He's been as much as I hate this word,...very efficient, which makes up for the lack of sheer numbers. I can definitely see how you'd say he's not top 25 though. He didn't really do much the first 1.5 years of his career.

[QUOTE=WillC]McGrady has had a better career than Cousy? Wow. What criteria are you using? PPG?

Cousy was All-NBA 1st Team 10 times and won multiple championships.

McGrady never got out of the 1st round of the playoffs.[/QUOTE]


McGrady has a better PER and a better WS/48 among other things in a much more difficult era. McGrady played on terrible Orlando teams, and he and Yao were rarely healthy at the same time in Houston.

[QUOTE=Rose]Oh I agree. I think if Tmac gave a shit he's a top 20 player. I wouldn't say he's had a better career than those guys for sure though. Specifically Cousy. I think when judging guys before the modern era. You have to take into account how well they dominated it. And with the exception of Oscar, he was above all his peers.

D-will's had some pretty good effective seasons. He's been as much as I hate this word,...very efficient, which makes up for the lack of sheer numbers. I can definitely see how you'd say he's not top 25 though. He didn't really do much the first 1.5 years of his career.[/QUOTE]


Oh yeah, Dwill may pass T-Mac when it's all said and done. Just not yet. And if T-Mac gave a shit I honestly believe he's top 5. He's the most talented offensive player I ever saw (didn't see Prime MJ)

[QUOTE=RRR3]McGrady has a better PER and a better WS/48 among other things in a much more difficult era. [/QUOTE]

And this is the absolute proof that PER and WS/48 are completely meaningless. I'll say it again: Cousy is a 10-time All-League 1st Team member and has multiple championships. TMac never got past the 1st round of the playoffs. So who gives a damn what his PER and WS/48 were at his peak? It's all meaningless.

[QUOTE=RRR3]McGrady has a better PER and a better WS/48 among other things in a much more difficult era. McGrady played on terrible Orlando teams, and he and Yao were rarely healthy at the same time in Houston.[/QUOTE]


The problem with this post is that the first point cancels out the second.

The reason McGrady's PER (which is a made up number by the way) is higher is because he had less players around him to share the statistical load. Right?

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The problem with this post is that the first point cancels out the second.

The reason McGrady's PER (which is a made up number by the way) is higher is because he had less players around him to share the statistical load. Right?[/QUOTE]

McGrady played well with Yao Ming too when he was healthy. He also only had one year (2002-03) where he truly played as well as he should have IMO.

[QUOTE=RRR3]Oh yeah, Dwill may pass T-Mac when it's all said and done. Just not yet. And if T-Mac gave a shit I honestly believe he's top 5. He's the most talented offensive player I ever saw (didn't see Prime MJ)[/QUOTE]
Totally agree. I say top 10 sometimes, and get called foolish. But He did some amazing shit the first half of last decade. His peak is honestly one of the best for guards. ever.

[QUOTE=WillC]And this is the absolute proof that PER and WS/48 are completely meaningless. I'll say it again: Cousy is a 10-time All-League 1st Team member and has [B]multiple championship[/B]s. TMac never got past the 1st round of the playoffs. So who gives a damn what his PER and WS/48 were at his peak? It's all meaningless.[/QUOTE]

Team accomplishment.

[QUOTE=RRR3]Oh yeah, Dwill may pass T-Mac when it's all said and done. Just not yet. And if T-Mac gave a shit I honestly believe he's top 5. He's the most talented offensive player I ever saw (didn't see Prime MJ)[/QUOTE]

Top 5?

How?

And I think he did give a shit, he just was limited. He wasn't a leader, he wasn't tough and he was driven to take care of his body like he should have.

T-MAC from about 2002 to 2005 or so when injuries started his decline for him was as good as any perimeter player in the NBA, but even then he was at best the 4th best player in the league.

I get what you are saying about his offensive talents, but how many of those actually helped his team win, versus helped him rack up huge numbers?

[QUOTE=RRR3]Team accomplishment.[/QUOTE]

Basketball is a team sport. An individual player should be measured by how much he helps his team achieve those type of things.

[QUOTE=RRR3]Team accomplishment.[/QUOTE]

Something McGrady never learned how to contribute to.

[QUOTE=Rose]Totally agree. I say top 10 sometimes, and get called foolish. But He did some amazing shit the first half of last decade. His peak is honestly one of the best for guards. ever.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. People laugh at me too when I say I think McGrady could have been better than Kobe and LeBron (at least at offense, they both give a shit on D lol). However, McGrady could play very good D when he wanted, although that wasn't nearly often enough. As it is, I think he's top 50 all time, but that's way lower than I expected him to end up.:(

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Top 5?

How?

And I think he did give a shit, he just was limited. He wasn't a leader, he wasn't tough and he was driven to take care of his body like he should have.

T-MAC from about 2002 to 2005 or so when injuries started his decline for him was as good as any perimeter player in the NBA, but even then he was at best the [B]4th best player in the league. [/B]

I get what you are saying about his offensive talents, but how many of those actually helped his team win, versus helped him rack up huge numbers?

Basketball is a team sport. An individual player should be measured by how much he helps his team achieve those type of things.[/QUOTE]

You can make a legitimate case for McGrady deserving the 2002-2003 MVP.

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]Top 5?

How?

And I think he did give a shit, he just was limited. He wasn't a leader, he wasn't tough and he was driven to take care of his body like he should have.

T-MAC from about 2002 to 2005 or so when injuries started his decline for him was as good as any perimeter player in the NBA, but even then he was at best the 4th best player in the league.

I get what you are saying about his offensive talents, but how many of those actually helped his team win, versus helped him rack up huge numbers?[/QUOTE]
I'm a huge T-mac guy. But can you honestly say he had a team to lead(aside from the couple of years where Yao was healthy with him).

To me, he offered one of the more complete packages a player can offer. Not a Pippen/LeBron type package. But the next big thing.

I'd also add, that to me him not caring, was him not taking care of his body. It's why Jordan, was so effective for so long, or at least a large part. He made sure to take care of all his physical attributes and then maximize them with sheer talent/will. Tracy was never capable of that, mostly because outside of a year or two in Orlando, and maybe a season in Houston he never cared.

[QUOTE=WillC]Something McGrady never learned how to contribute to.[/QUOTE]
You do realize his playoff stats are exellent, don't you? I'd like to see anyone win shit with those Orlando teams he played on (Freakin Andrew Declerq was the starting C)

[QUOTE=RRR3]Agreed. People laugh at me too when I say I think McGrady could have been better than Kobe and LeBron (at least at offense, they both give a shit on D lol). However, McGrady could play very good D when he wanted, although that wasn't nearly often enough. As it is, I think he's top 50 all time, but that's way lower than I expected him to end up.:([/QUOTE]
I'd disagree with him being top 50 all time. Maybe 75.


I like how the first couple pages of this are about a guy who's not even a top 10 guard ever.:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: