2-Part Thread - PART TWO - Why the stats argument don't work in Lebron vs Kobe

[3ba11]

1st options and franchise players are more than just statistical robots like secondary or tertiary options are.. So OTHER STATS must be evaluated to determine the level of chemistry, strategic capacity/coaching, and brand of basketball (such as ball movement) that a 1st options' skillset yields.. Let's perform this advanced statistical analysis...

Kobe has far superior jumpshooting stats (volume & efficiency - see stats in the Part 1 thread), which allows a superior assisted rate (playing off-teammates, aka off-ball) and therefore higher ball movement/team assists and great chemistry with in-out bigs, who saw statistical highs alongside him - these are all verifiable stats.. Otoh, Lebron has weak jumpshooting volume and efficiency, so he cannot have high assisted rates/play off teammates and therefore has low team assists.. His low assisted rate/inability to play off-teammates also prevents him from fitting with in-out bigs like Love, Bosh, Pau, or Shaq, who all cratered and saw statistical lows alongside him.. Again, all of this is verifiable stats, aka low assisted rate causing low-assist teams and bad fits (teammates cratering).

Essentially, Lebron turns high-assisted rate position like forward into low-assisted rate one, thereby lowering the assist capacity of the team.. His scoring is "elastic" with teammates, which means that it fluctuates in direct correlation with how much he has the ball in his hands and how little his teammates do.. Otoh, Kobe's goat scoring diversity was "inelastic", so it remains high even when teammates have the ball in their hands a lot, because he was a goat assist-target (off-ball).

Of course there are other stats like TO's, FT's, clutch ppg and clutch plus/minus that tell the story as well.

[RRR3]

Stats are literally your entire argument in every other case, why should Kobe be special

[3ba11]

Stats are literally your entire argument in every other case, why should Kobe be special


Nah, you're lying because you can't make the case for Lebron to be over Kobe - Lebron's weaker brand of ball/chemistry and the resulting weaker teams is what puts him below Kobe, Curry, Jordan, Duncan, and many more....

He lacks expert jumpshooting skill and must rely on high-scoring ball-domination that imposes spot-up roles - his "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and that's why Lebron stinks and mostly loses compared to these guys.

So zero stats are needed to make the case against Lebron - his brand of ball and weak winning given his casts, while also lacking goat qualities like perseverance, competitiveness, toughness - this is why stats aren't needed to make the case against Lebron... However, stats can still be used such as worst-ever turnovers, horrible FT's, bad plus/minus in clutch-time, and low team assists.

[StrongLurk]

Why is Kobe such a poor finals performer?

Kobe's pippen-like performances required historic carry jobs from Shaq in the finals. Kobe's averages are almost identical to Pippen's finals performances 91-93, and you shit all over Pippen and give him zero credit. Seems like you need to do the same for Kobe in the finals.

[3ba11]

Why is Kobe such a poor finals performer?


Kobe did great as 1st option against the Spurs in the 01' and 02' Playoffs, which everyone knows was the REAL finals - the 22-year old Kobe destroyed the Spurs with 33/7/7 on 51%, while 22-year Lebron averaged 22 on 35% and 6 TO's... This is why most people know that Kobe was far better at 22 years old - his goat scoring diversity was already capable of playing off of in-out bigs like Pau, which Lebron never learned and he cratered Pau/Bosh....

Meanwhile, the Finals against the Nets lowered Kobe's numbers because the basic Shaq-ball was more than enough to beat the all-time weak East.... But when we look at Kobe in the Finals as 1st option, we see that Kobe was goat-level in the 09' and 10' Finals by virtue of winning with the triangle and also winning with a 2nd option that was worse than Love/Bosh and didn't even average 19 ppg - this forced Kobe to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on the championship level), which Lebron never did.. It's a rare way to win and Kobe did it easily twice.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe did great as 1st option against the Spurs in the 01' and 02' Playoffs, which everyone knows was the REAL finals - the 22-year old Kobe destroyed the Spurs with 33/7/7 on 51%, while 22-year Lebron averaged 22 on 35% and 6 TO's... This is why most people know that Kobe was far better at 22 years old - his goat scoring diversity was already capable of playing off of in-out bigs like Pau, which Lebron never learned and he cratered Pau/Bosh....

Meanwhile, the Finals against the Nets lowered Kobe's numbers because the basic Shaq-ball was more than enough to beat the all-time weak East.... But when we look at Kobe in the Finals as 1st option, we see that Kobe was goat-level in the 09' and 10' Finals by virtue of winning with the triangle and also winning with a 2nd option that was worse than Love/Bosh and didn't even average 19 ppg - this forced Kobe to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on the championship level), which Lebron never did.. It's a rare way to win and Kobe did it easily twice.

So Kobe only managed to win 2 finals as the first option in his whole career? And he was Pippen-level in the 00-02 finals?

[RRR3]

So Kobe only managed to win 2 finals as the first option in his whole career? And he was Pippen-level in the 00-02 finals?
Kobe was a Pippen-level bum.

[ShawkFactory]

Hmmm.

That’s true stats only work in every other situation but the one you don’t like the results of.

[3ba11]

So Kobe only managed to win 2 finals as the first option in his whole career? And he was Pippen-level in the 00-02 finals?


At 22 years old vs Spurs


Kobe...... 31/7/7 on 51%
Lebron... 22/7/7 on 35%... 6 TO per game


Lebron also shot 35% with 6 TO against the 08' Celtics, so Kobe outplayed him vs them too

[3ba11]

So Kobe only managed to win 2 finals as the first option in his whole career? And he was Pippen-level in the 00-02 finals?


The real Finals were. against the Spurs in the West, so how did Kobe fare against this top comp and who was 1st option?

When did Pippen get anywhere near Kobe's goat level vs Spurs?

[RRR3]

The historical record proves that Kobe was a Pippen-level bum in the finals.

[dankok8]

How are y'all not bored of these threads? I'll never understand it...

[StrongLurk]

The real Finals were. against the Spurs in the West, so how did Kobe fare against this top comp and who was 1st option?

When did Pippen get anywhere near Kobe's goat level vs Spurs?

No, the finals are the finals. I know you are the worst poster on ISH, but words actually have meaning. So we have determined that Kobe was not the 1st option in his first four finals appearances. 00-02 Kobe's finals performances are factually equal to 91-93 Pippen's finals performances. Kobe factually only won two finals as the 1st option.

Kobe shouldn't be compared to MJ or Lebron.