How good is the case for peak Magic and Bird over peak Lebron?

[dankok8]

1986 Bird and 1987 Magic vs. whatever year was Lebron's peak. How good is the case for each of those two?

I ask because years ago people were very open to the idea that those guys peaked higher but these days I feel it's controversial to say that. The narrative has shifted a lot.

[SouBeachTalents]

The only guys imo you could argue peaked at LeBron's level would be Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq & Wilt, and you could throw Jokic into the mix depending how you feel about his defense.

I just don't see the argument for Bird & esp Magic, LeBron was a better scorer and MUCH better defender at his peak than Magic was, and he consistently performed better in the playoffs than Bird did.

LeBron had at minimum a top 5 peak, while Magic & Bird would be around fringe top 10. Outside of the guys I mentioned you argue the likes of Curry, Giannis, Duncan etc. ahead of them as well.

[gengiskhan]

"show time" offense.

Celtics "dynasty" is good enough for me. Never "re-peated" and never "3-peated."

Reason 1. ran into LAL, team of the decade. 1-2 Finals record for Bird is because of Magic's LAL.
Reason 2. ran into Pistons, almost "dynastic " there. 3 straight NBA Finals appearances. Re-Peated.
Reason 3. toughest of the tough East Conf. Early 80s Philly with Moses-Dr J-Cheeks. Later Sr. Charles drafted.

LBJ was given a chance with 2 franchises. HEAT and CAVs. Barely re-peated. failed miserably at "dynasty". despite "colluded Super-teams"

He could not turn them into dynasty. in the easiest era of them all. wide open eastern conference.

LBJ Is barely barely Top 10. Magic is like Top 5 GOATs. Bird is there too.

LBJ has ZERO case for Top 5. No 10th spot. maybe. all that longevity. 4 MVPs argument. other than that. none.

too much collusion with direct competition. too much choke job. too much beta mentality. also, steriod usage.

[RRR3]

https://gifdb.com/images/high/patrick-star-dizzy-mwl3pfotpzroizcu.gif
:roll:

[8Ball]

I'll take a dozen non peak LeBron years over Bird and Magic peak.

Bron is just a better NBA player than either of them.

[gengiskhan]

I'll take a dozen non peak LeBron years over Bird and Magic peak.

Bron is just a better NBA player than either of them.

effing guy takes 3 full secs for his senses to register that "wow. I have a ball now...what do I do with it?" before making his first move.

ugliest game, ugliest moves, always offensive fouling with his elbow. No real back-to-the-basket post up game.

If Magic and Bird were ever given today's open lanes, no hand checking, zero defense, full on run-and-gun offense, empty paint areas,

Bird is easy 40-15-12 guy. night after night. easy. His decision making, highest Bball IQ, smooth stroke.

Bird was straight up killa. A better version of Magic. Both leagues ahead of mentally slow LBJ.

[Lebron23]

LeBron is better than them

[8Ball]

effing guy takes 3 full secs for his senses to register that "wow. I have a ball now...what do I do with it?" before making his first move.

ugliest game, ugliest moves, always offensive fouling with his elbow. No real back-to-the-basket post up game.

If Magic and Bird were ever given today's open lanes, no hand checking, zero defense, full on run-and-gun offense, empty paint areas,

Bird is easy 40-15-12 guy. night after night. easy. His decision making, highest Bball IQ, smooth stroke.

Bird was straight up killa. A better version of Magic. Both leagues ahead of mentally slow LBJ.

Every single coach in the NBA thinks LeBron has high BBIQ and quick decision making yet you are here in the corner saying the opposite.

Either you are smarter than all the NBA coaches, or you are clueless.

[And1AllDay]

bran has like seven peaks

09 peak
12 peak
13 peak
16 peak
17 peak
18 peak
20 peak

his sick in the head top of the heap with kobe for goat

[SATAN]

1986 Bird and 1987 Magic vs. whatever year was Lebron's peak. How good is the case for each of those two?

I ask because I am an MJ stan trying to downplay LeBron while he's getting alot of positive attention again. Also, if you think LeBron is better than MJ at anything I disregard your votes on my polls.

I didn't start watching basketball until 1996 btw.

ftfy

[jstern]

ftfy

Why did you start using my avatar?

[gengiskhan]

Why did you start using my avatar?

Because he is Satan, God's sworn enemy.

[NBAGOAT]

not strong, mainly just because of defense. yea bron can be lazy for whole seasons but prime bron is a monster defender

[Im Still Ballin]

If you have a very binary "offense + defense" mentality, it'd be hard to make an argument for either over LeBron. But basketball isn't a game of checking two boxes; offense and defense flow and influence each other dynamically. All three are unique players and have different strengths and weaknesses that can be valued differently depending on circumstance: roster construction (personnel, coaching, scheme) and era/period of time/rules and style of play.

There are many teams where Larry's superior isolation scoring and more reliable perimeter shooting would situationally be more valuable than what LeBron offers. And on certain teams, Magic's GOAT-level playmaking and pass-first mentality would prove more impactful than LeBron's stellar-but-not-quite as-good approach in the same aspects.

You can make an argument for all of them. And I won't argue against anyone's opinion. As long as they have a reasonable argument.

[Im Still Ballin]

But I guess if a guy is more portable and therefore more valuable in a wider set of circumstances, maybe that makes him "better?" I don't know. Many variables to consider...

[ImKobe]

It's all subjective but I think '84 Bird and '87 Magic have a good case if you wanted to argue it. Both Magic & Bird were way more unselfish than Bron so the pro-Bron folk would say they didn't score enough but they dominated the league just as well as peak Bron.

[1987_Lakers]

No case.

[tpols]

After watching the 80s tape in depth I wouldn't say they have any case. It's just nostalgia because it was a golden era for basketball. No internet, no cell phones, all people had was TV. And that was the media they consumed.

The clunky overhand right dribbling, most guys can't shoot a lick and don't have to defend at range, free post catches, etc...

Lebron basically has their skills but in a superman body.

[gengiskhan]

After watching the 80s tape in depth I wouldn't say they have any case. It's just nostalgia because it was a golden era for basketball. No internet, no cell phones, all people had was TV. And that was the media they consumed.

The clunky overhand right dribbling, most guys can't shoot a lick and don't have to defend at range, free post catches, etc...

Lebron basically has their skills but in a superman body.

eff recency bias!.....

NBA puts full on hand checking, full court presses, physical defense, completely clogged paints with tall, long big men back in the game against LBJ....

LeBalco has no chance of even winning 1 championship. none. all that talent will get him to 80s EC semis or even 90s ECF but thats about it.

LBJ's game is ugly. He takes full 2-3 secs to decide what to do as a primary playmaker because of average Bball IQ. All this a result of not playing NCAA.

80s and 90s "no blood no foul" era would've exposed LBJ big time.

I doubt LBJ can compete against 1980s Dominique for full 48 mins. That Human Highlight Film was too athletic and always moving, always agile scoring kill machine.

[tpols]

eff recency bias!.....

NBA puts full on hand checking, full court presses, physical defense, completely clogged paints with tall, long big men back in the game against LBJ....

LeBalco has no chance of even winning 1 championship. none. all that talent will get him to 80s EC semis or even 90s ECF but thats about it.

LBJ's game is ugly. He takes full 2-3 secs to decide what to do as a primary playmaker because of average Bball IQ. All this a result of not playing NCAA.

80s and 90s "no blood no foul" era would've exposed LBJ big time.

I doubt LBJ can compete against 1980s Dominique for full 48 mins. That Human Highlight Film was too athletic and always moving, always agile scoring kill machine.


I used to think that too but a lot of you guys in the 80s were straight up skinny. Dominique had hops and skills but he was ass on defense and giving up like 70 lbs of pure muscle to LeHorse. He'd get ran the **** over with impunity. :lol

Hand checking wouldn't mean a damn thing in that case. But the tape shows defenses mostly sagged back then. There was tremendous freedom of movement from 25 feet out, basically you weren't even being guarded until you entered the midrange, paint or post.

Miami Lebron @ 270 all muscle fully juiced up would be bigger than all of yall. By a lot. Centers like 80s Kareem, Hakeem, Bill Lambier, and Robert Parish all weighed less than Lebron and moved like dinosaurs compared to him. It would be a joke.

The 90s would be much tougher because dudes started to take weight lifting seriously then and it was a true go0n league. Hardcore strength training used to be discouraged before that because the sentiment was being too strong would affect your touch and skill. Overall though, yall 80s guys were flabby, slow, and weak.

[dankok8]

The way I see it...

Defensive valuations have a very wide range of acceptable conclusions so based on that it's very possible. For instance, if one only sees Lebron as a small positive on defense then it's possible to have Magic over him especially if you believe Magic is a tier ahead offensively which some people including Ben Taylor do. In other words, the gap in impact from Magic's offense can override the gap in impact from Lebron's defense. And with Bird, he'd be on the same tier as Lebron on both ends but he can get a small bump overall because of superior portability.

For what it's worth, I personally do have Lebron's peak over both. Purely on offense, I do see Magic as better but Lebron makes that up and then some with defense. And with Bird, I see Lebron's peak as a bit better on both ends.

[ILLsmak]

'peak' adds massive subjectivity. How long is a peak? Whose peak is when?

I am sure you can make a very good case, but in regards to all time resume, it's hard to compare given Bron has crazy longevity and the all time scoring record.

Both Larry and Magic were DUM at their peak though. I mean, I can't say there is a drop off for them when compared to anyone. If you say who was best at their best, they are all in that tier. Even MJ would probably say so. Peak for Peak, it would be a toss up.

Edit: real shit if I had to choose of the 3, LeBron would be the one whose peak might not match up heh.

-Smak

[Hey Yo]

The way I see it...

Defensive valuations have a very wide range of acceptable conclusions so based on that it's very possible. For instance, if one only sees Lebron as a small positive on defense then it's possible to have Magic over him especially if you believe Magic is a tier ahead offensively which some people including Ben Taylor do. In other words, the gap in impact from Magic's offense can override the gap in impact from Lebron's defense. And with Bird, he'd be on the same tier as Lebron on both ends but he can get a small bump overall because of superior portability.

For what it's worth, I personally do have Lebron's peak over both. Purely on offense, I do see Magic as better but Lebron makes that up and then some with defense. And with Bird, I see Lebron's peak as a bit better on both ends.

Magic better on offense than LeBron? Magic wasn't asked to deliver more offense or take over first option until 1987... his 8th year in the league. James pretty much was expected to do so from game one of his rookie season. Sure, Magic runs a better fast break, but that's where it ends. James is the better scorer and shooter.

[John8204]

I can see the argument for Larry Bird, Larry was the first option shooter who had to play against the toughest competition and he won rings. But Lebron's peak was twice as long as Larry's

[VictorMosquito]

Why did you start using my avatar?

You're not even good at chess

[Nowoco]

The only guys imo you could argue peaked at LeBron's level would be Jordan, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq & Wilt, and you could throw Jokic into the mix depending how you feel about his defense.

This.

[sdot_thadon]

The way I see it...

Defensive valuations have a very wide range of acceptable conclusions so based on that it's very possible. For instance, if one only sees Lebron as a small positive on defense then it's possible to have Magic over him especially if you believe Magic is a tier ahead offensively which some people including Ben Taylor do. In other words, the gap in impact from Magic's offense can override the gap in impact from Lebron's defense. And with Bird, he'd be on the same tier as Lebron on both ends but he can get a small bump overall because of superior portability.

For what it's worth, I personally do have Lebron's peak over both. Purely on offense, I do see Magic as better but Lebron makes that up and then some with defense. And with Bird, I see Lebron's peak as a bit better on both ends.

A small positive on defense when comparing a guy that never made a single all defensive team to a guy with 2 2nd place dpoy finishes? lol. And I'm not even sure you can say definitively he's better than Lebron offensively when Lebron has been the best of both worlds as a scorer/playmaker for most of his career.

[ArbitraryWater]

https://y.yarn.co/3eb23ba5-dc2a-4b1b-942a-39152677d18c_text.gif

[gengiskhan]

I can see the argument for Larry Bird, Larry was the first option shooter who had to play against the toughest competition and he won rings. But Lebron's peak was twice as long as Larry's

nobody cares!

Bird's peak was "higher' than LBJs.

Thats what counts.

BTW, dont even bother arguing LBJ's "peak" was higher than Bird.

If that was the case, Bird would have never ever beaten Magic's LAL in Finals. and would've lost to 22 YO Akeem-Ralph twin towers in 1986 Finals.

Why LBJs peak is lower than Bird, there is a reason he LBJ lost to JJ Barea with the "super team" with all 3 mid-20s to late-20s in their prime on a team that has Championship DNA (2006).

Bird built a "dynasty" in his peak with 3 consequitive MVPs and 2 MVP sweeps. LBJ failed to build easiest of the 'dynasty' in his prime in 3 different franchises. MIA followed by CAVS followed by LAL. Twice he got easiest of the easy, wide open East Conferences.

All 3 franchises gave LBJ "super teams" too. Reason LBJ will come after Magic and Bird forever and ever in GOAT hierarchy.

[dankok8]

A small positive on defense when comparing a guy that never made a single all defensive team to a guy with 2 2nd place dpoy finishes? lol. And I'm not even sure you can say definitively he's better than Lebron offensively when Lebron has been the best of both worlds as a scorer/playmaker for most of his career.

I never said I believe that. I see Lebron as well ahead of Magic on defense and that's based on my eye test. But evaluating defense is so subjective and there is very few meaningful metrics especially before tracking starting in 2013-14. So the low and high end valuations of defense can be very far apart.

My point is that someone who is very low on Lebron's defense and rates him as a slightly positive while rating Magic as a neutral defender could have Magic ahead if they consider Magic as definitely better on offense.

Of course if you're very high on Lebron's defense then there's probably zero case for Magic.

[sdot_thadon]

I never said I believe that. I see Lebron as well ahead of Magic on defense and that's based on my eye test. But evaluating defense is so subjective and there is very few meaningful metrics especially before tracking starting in 2013-14. So the low and high end valuations of defense can be very far apart.

My point is that someone who is very low on Lebron's defense and rates him as a slightly positive while rating Magic as a neutral defender could have Magic ahead if they consider Magic as definitely better on offense.

Of course if you're very high on Lebron's defense then there's probably zero case for Magic.

a person that low on Lebrons defense AND rates Magic a tier above him on offense probably isn't worth having the debate with tbh.

[gengiskhan]

Bird aint losing to 2011 Mavs!..........ever

Magic aint losing to 2011 Mavs!........ever

Bird aint losing to 2014 SAS........ever

Magic aint losing to 2014 SAS......ever

If Magic broke against Dr J-Moses-cheeks led 1981-1983 Sixers 1-1, its because sixers were that solid with fully front court loaded.

If Bird broke against 1984-1987 LAL, 1-2, its because LAL were marginally better because of better front court loading.

Bird took care of 1986 Akeem-Ralph twin towers in no time.

Magic took care of business against 1988 pistons too in no time.

LBJ broke 1-2 against Duncan.

LBJ broke 1-1 against Kawhi. lucky for Ray Allen. LBJ was shyting at the very sight of Claw.

LBJ broke 1-3 against Curry. lol. Curry out of all players. LBJ should've easily dominated.

LBJ aint Top 5 GOATs ever. Magic and Bird are.

whether you like it or not.

[RRR3]

D-duh-uhh-uhh-uhhh-uhhhh!!!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[dankok8]

a person that low on Lebrons defense AND rates Magic a tier above him on offense probably isn't worth having the debate with tbh.

Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball who is a way more serious basketball analyst than almost everyone here has Magic a tier ahead of Lebron on offense. He still has Lebron's peak higher overall because of defense.

[sdot_thadon]

Ben Taylor from Thinking Basketball who is a way more serious basketball analyst than almost everyone here has Magic a tier ahead of Lebron on offense. He still has Lebron's peak higher overall because of defense.

That's great, love his work but his opinion doesn't change mine. And he doesn't have Lebron that low on defense apparently, so bringing him up to support half your point doesn't really do much for me. I said a person that holds both of those viewpoints together isn't somebody worth debating imo.

[dankok8]

That's great, love his work but his opinion doesn't change mine. And he doesn't have Lebron that low on defense apparently, so bringing him up to support half your point doesn't really do much for me. I said a person that holds both of those viewpoints together isn't somebody worth debating imo.

Why would that be?

Both individually are reasonable views so why wouldn't it be reasonable having both views together...

Either way, we both agree that Lebron peaked higher than Magic.

[1987_Lakers]

That's great, love his work but his opinion doesn't change mine. And he doesn't have Lebron that low on defense apparently, so bringing him up to support half your point doesn't really do much for me. I said a person that holds both of those viewpoints together isn't somebody worth debating imo.

I'm pretty confident Ben Taylor has LeBron's defensive peak above MJ's, considering how much he picked apart MJ's defense during his peak project.

And I would like a quote of Ben Taylor ranking Magic's offense ahead of LeBron's. The only thing I remember is him saying Magic has a strong case of being the greatest offensive player ever because of the ATG offenses he ran. He didn't compare their offenses head to head.

[3ba11]

Peak Lebron was either 2009 (loser) or 2013 (carried, 25 ppg)

Peak Bird was a winner that carried the load (84')

[warriorfan]

Peak Lebron was either 2009 (loser) or 2013 (carried, 25 ppg)

Peak Bird was a winner that carried the load (84')

Yeah, Lebron wasn’t even better than the Orlando Magic

(When Lebron lost to Dwight’s Magic in 09 they also were missing their All-Star point guard Jameer Nelson due to injury and were forced to use an And1 player at pg)

[ShawkFactory]

Yeah, Lebron wasn’t even better than the Orlando Magic

(When Lebron lost to Dwight’s Magic in 09 they also were missing their All-Star point guard Jameer Nelson due to injury and were forced to use an And1 player at pg)

What a statement :lol

[Kblaze8855]

Legacy wise little to no case. Basketball playing wise depends on what you’re looking for. Just building a basketball team without knowing the rules of the era or who else I would have? I would take bird First over the other two by a hair. Give me the specific situation I can take any of the three. The league rules and team are a huge factor.

[SouBeachTalents]

What a statement :lol
He was better than the 73 win Warriors though.

[3ba11]

What a statement :lol



09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic....... 18 on 38%...... #3 team defense........ lost

89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs........ 15 on 40%..... #11 team defense....... won
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat........ 16 on 39%....... #4 team defense....... won
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers'..... 17 on 39%....... #9 team defense....... won
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz......... 16 on 41%....... #9 team defense....... won

96-98' Pippen entire playoffs....... 18 on 41%...... #1, #4, #9 defenses


^^^ Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with less help on both sides of the ball

Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team w/ weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams).. He's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams and therefore needs all-time scoring help

[3ba11]

He was better than the 73 win Warriors though.


If Stockton outplayed MVP Jordan then Malone would've beaten the Bulls easily

Anyone will win if their sidekick outplays the league MVP

[tpols]

He was better than the 73 win Warriors though.

Kyrie outplayed UMVP Curry.

Lebron outplayed... Harrison Barnes.

:roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

Kyrie outplayed UMVP Curry.

Lebron outplayed... Harrison Barnes.

:roll:
He outplayed everybody, led both teams in every category. Only time in history that's happened, and he did it over several HOF's in their primes.

[3ba11]

He outplayed everybody, led both teams in every category. Only time in history that's happened, and he did it over several HOF's in their primes.


A mere footnote and statistical anomaly to lead categories by 0.2 steals, 1 rebound and 1 point or whatever it was

who cares.. there are far more meaningful statistical accomplishments in the Finals.

the point is that anyone would win if their sidekick outplays the league MVP, such as Stockton outplaying MVP Jordan - Malone would've easily won in this case

[tpols]

He outplayed everybody, led both teams in every category. Only time in history that's happened, and he did it over several HOF's in their primes.

Kyrie and Lebrons positional opposition was vastly different in terms of talent and ability.

Like... different galaxy level different.

[dankok8]

I'm pretty confident Ben Taylor has LeBron's defensive peak above MJ's, considering how much he picked apart MJ's defense during his peak project.

And I would like a quote of Ben Taylor ranking Magic's offense ahead of LeBron's. The only thing I remember is him saying Magic has a strong case of being the greatest offensive player ever because of the ATG offenses he ran. He didn't compare their offenses head to head.

He had a podcast ranking the best offensive players in the 3pt era. I'll try to find which podcast and link but you could find discussions about it on RealGM.

He put MJ, Magic and Curry in Tier 1 and Lebron, Shaq, and Jokic in Tier 2.

[ShawkFactory]

Kyrie and Lebrons positional opposition was vastly different in terms of talent and ability.

Like... different galaxy level different.

Who cares? We're solely comparing him to entire teams based on the outcome of the series. Apparently.

[ShawkFactory]

09' Mo Will vs #4 SRS Magic....... 18 on 38%...... #3 team defense........ lost

89' Pippen' vs #1 SRS Cavs........ 15 on 40%..... #11 team defense....... won
97' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Heat........ 16 on 39%....... #4 team defense....... won
98' Pippen' vs #4 SRS Pacers'..... 17 on 39%....... #9 team defense....... won
98' Pippen' vs #3 SRS Jazz......... 16 on 41%....... #9 team defense....... won

96-98' Pippen entire playoffs....... 18 on 41%...... #1, #4, #9 defenses


^^^ Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with less help on both sides of the ball

Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team w/ weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick (never carried weak help over top teams).. He's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams and therefore needs all-time scoring help

:lol

Never change.

[3ba11]

:lol

Never change.


And you the same

[ShawkFactory]

And you the same

Nah I'm not autistic (and/or my livelihood doesn't depend on this board) so I'll adapt and switch things up as I age. Like most people.

[warriorfan]

Kyrie outplayed UMVP Curry.

Lebron outplayed... Harrison Barnes.

:roll:

Adam Silver outplayed everyone :lol

[gengiskhan]

Adam Silver outplayed everyone :lol

this.

Super team is just not enough.

LeColluder needed lot more help than that.

and he finally got it

[warriorfan]

this.

Super team is just not enough.

LeColluder needed lot more help than that.

and he finally got it

Dude legit called Adam Silver after the game to complain about it

Imagine hitting speed dial to the commissioner of the league after getting whooped and about to lose…..insane

Remember that the ref’s call on the floor was not flagrant, Adam Silver personally retroactively upgraded it to a flagrant THAT night after Lebron made his lobbying phone call

Silver knew lebron was about to get served 4-1 so he caved in and personally extended the series

It might be one of the biggest fixes in modern sports

[3ba11]

Nah I'm not autistic (and/or my livelihood doesn't depend on this board) so I'll adapt and switch things up as I age. Like most people.


Stay lacking insight.. That's what I meant.. in your eyes, if a team loses, it's because they didn't have enough help (more talent needed, aka talent-based winning).. that's okay.. keep thinking that because it allows me to have great insight and see things like the US about to be annihilated in the Olympics