Shaq had 20/5 and fouled out. Chuck had 28/19/5 and the win.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/VegBOe-Z3po?si=Vf9Oc2Vq3W-Tr5lr


Obviously not all plays just a few where Chuck got the better of it. You can really see how rebounding isn’t a size issue. Though nothing was with him. Chuck won the tipoff as well.

Chuck more than maybe anyone I’d like to see just dropped into a modern game. See how he’s used. He could be a 3-4-5 but I figure an attacking 4 like Giannis. He might average 15 rebounds a game with so few teams playing dual bigs.

It’s easy to imagine how Jordan or a Hakeem gets used now. Barkley I wanna see more. Polished Zion with Drummond rebounding per minute with less vertical. Might be a quicker leaper though. Hard to define or explain….but he had a great ability to rejump. Springy. Less straight up in the air Zion explosive but maybe more….I don’t know. Have them both go for a ball in the air I suspect Chuck comes down with it with or without position. Hard to define skill.

Just a ****ing go getter.

Maybe my lifetimes leader in right under the basket dunks outside Shaq and that’s crazy for his size. Two handed right under the basket dunks are not easy for wing sized guys in traffic. But you’d never know watching him.

Give him 3-4 shooters and tell him the math favors him attacking every time till the double comes….actually make him be selfish and shoot over and over?

I just wanna see his modern per minute numbers in his Philly form.

[90sgoat]

I'd like to see some real stats on how strong Barkley is and were. He must be have been freakishly strong to box out Shaq like in the first one.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Williamson only averaged 6 rebounds. I wonder if it's something he even cares about but whatever it is that made Barkley a great rebounder, Williamson doesn't have it.

[Kblaze8855]

I'd like to see some real stats on how strong Barkley is and were. He must be have been freakishly strong to box out Shaq like in the first one.

on one hand, I think its lower body and core strength because people really underestimate how a strong lower body can give you leverage. We could throw 900 pounds on the leg press in high school and we weren’t like some incredible physical specimens. A guy as strong as Barkley with his natural instincts and skill to use leverage could pretty easily move a 300 pound guy who doesn’t know how to use his size.

But also…he just had explosive strength. It’s almost how smaller animals seem stronger than humans and a lot of that is because they can use all their strength at once and they don’t do anything half assed. They just explode with everything they have.

Have you ever had to kick down a door? Almost universally the first time you kick it you bounce off. You’re embarrassed or hurt a little and the next time you kick it, you might knock it off the ****ing hinges. Is the same thing that keeps people from punching through cinderblocks or boards but people trying to do it don’t hold back. They might not be any stronger but they remove that mental block and just go through it like nothing because they know they can. You break your hand because you hold back and/or don’t hit it properly.

Barkley has that explosive don’t give a **** all out strength that made him just ragdoll people.




https://i.ibb.co/7zzKfD6/IMG-9474.gif



Ewing gets tossed like a child.


and that isn’t really leg strength. That’s just somebody grabbing you like your granddad and getting you the **** out of his face.

Just total dismissal.

Not everyone has that all or nothing fast twitch explosive strength. I bet he wasn’t measurably stronger than a lot of people he would toss around.

[Im Still Ballin]

Williamson only averaged 6 rebounds. I wonder if it's something he even cares about but whatever it is that made Barkley a great rebounder, Williamson doesn't have it.

The only thing I can think of is that Zion's arms are short and his neck is kind of long. He's 6'6" barefoot and his wingspan is 6'10" but a lot of that has to be in his wide-set shoulders. I don't imagine his standing reach is that amazing. His rebounding numbers weren't anything special in college although his blocks and steals were fantastic.

In comparison, Chuck's arms were very lengthy and he has almost no neck. Barkley can probably reach a few inches higher and wider despite being a little over a inch shorter.

But no doubt the conditioning and motor are factors. You don't go from nearly 4 combined blocks and steals in 30 minutes to barely 1 and a half in 31.8. We've never seen the guy that we saw at Duke. I still remember that corner three he blocked.

[Kblaze8855]

Williamson only averaged 6 rebounds. I wonder if it's something he even cares about but whatever it is that made Barkley a great rebounder, Williamson doesn't have it.

definitely not. Some people just really, really ****ing want the ball and it’s hard to account for it. It’s the first reason I ever noticed Dante divincenzo. And Westbrook had it as well despite all the stat padding claims.



https://i.ibb.co/6gtdg2W/IMG-9475.gif



Thats just wanting the ball more than other people.


some people are just big. Some people just want it more than other people want it. Some people have incredible technique.

You don’t need all three.

[90sgoat]

Not everyone has that all or nothing fast twitch explosive strength. I bet he wasn’t measurably stronger than a lot of people he would toss around.

Yeah, it's like some innate level of understanding physics or something. The unmovable object and of course yes, having the most of his weight in his lower body.

[Kblaze8855]

The only thing I can think of is that Zion's arms are short and his neck is kind of long. He's 6'6" barefoot and his wingspan is 6'10" but a lot of that has to be in his wide-set shoulders. I don't imagine his standing reach is that amazing. His rebounding numbers weren't anything special in college although his blocks and steals were fantastic.

In comparison, Chuck's arms were very lengthy and he has almost no neck. Barkley can probably reach a few inches higher and wider despite being a little over a inch shorter.

But no doubt the conditioning and motor are factors. You don't go from nearly 4 combined blocks and steals in 30 minutes to barely 1 and a half in 31.8. We've never seen the guy that we saw at Duke. I still remember that corner three he blocked.


conditioning and motor have to be some of it, but he also just doesn’t appear to make it a priority. Versus the lineups out there these days? Anybody who really wanted it can control the boards.

Can you imagine those 76ers that had both Moses Malone and Charles Barkley? It would be downright comical, watching today’s teams trying to handle that physicality around the basket.

They will get shelled from three on the other end, but you can just give up on ever getting an offensive rebound and they are getting second points all night.

I’d love to just watch the practices with Moses and Charles going for rebounds. I know Moses got him into better shape but you know Charles wanted his get back when they got on the floor.

Im not Asher today I’d stay out the way when those two wanted the ball. Thats none of my business.

[Im Still Ballin]

conditioning and motor have to be some of it, but he also just doesn’t appear to make it a priority. Versus the lineups out there these days? Anybody who really wanted it can control the boards.

Can you imagine those 76ers that had both Moses Malone and Charles Barkley? It would be downright comical, watching today’s teams trying to handle that physicality around the basket.

They will get shelled from three on the other end, but you can just give up on ever getting an offensive rebound and they are getting second points all night.

I’d love to just watch the practices with Moses and Charles going for rebounds. I know Moses got him into better shape but you know Charles wanted his get back when they got on the floor.

Im not Asher today I’d stay out the way when those two wanted the ball. Thats none of my business.
I think it'd work very well, going all in on offensive rebounds. They've kind of come back in fashion over the last few years with teams like Memphis under Taylor Jenkins and New York with Thibs. It seemed like everyone was prioritizing transition defense then the Grizzlies showed up in 2021-22 with Steve Adams and had an elite offense despite being below average in FG%, 3PT%, and FT%. They just simply got an extra 6-7 shots per game.

I guess Zion just doesn't seem himself as that sort of player, which is a shame really. Because it'd be the best version of himself; like a young Barkley-OKC Westbrook hybrid. He should be snatching up 10+ defensive rebounds a game and leading the fastbreak like Russ. And like Chuck moving guys out of the way on the offensive glass.

[iamgine]

Wouldn't he just be an undersized Giannis with way worse defense? Teams will hunt him and force him to switch. His rebounding and offense will suffer because of this.

[Im Still Ballin]

Wouldn't he just be an undersized Giannis with way worse defense? Teams will hunt him and force him to switch. His rebounding and offense will suffer because of this.

I get the general, surface-level comparison to Giannis. But the nuances about how they go about dominating the paint is different. Chuck is way more capable in the post, has a reliable mid-range jump shot, and is a little better at free-throw shooting. Not to mention a superior offensive rebounder.

He's just a more dynamic scorer in the half-court setting. Able to do more things whatever the circumstance. In the clutch, against mismatches from switches, cross-matches in transition, small-ball lineups, broken plays, etc. Situational value.

Chuck probably shoots 65-70% on two-point shots whereas Giannis is at 60-65%. And more of that is able to come in the half-court setting through the post and mid-range and from putbacks. I mean, Chuck shot 25% above league average on two-point shots in Philly. 61.4% FG vs. 49% FG.

If you multiply the 2024 league average 2pt% (54.5) by 1.25 that's like shooting 68.1% today. And he was doing that against huge lineups that packed the paint.

As for the defense, it's an issue but not as critical as you're making it out to be. The right scheme and personnel can minimize his shortcomings while maximizing what he does do well on defense: rebound.

In today's league, you could play him with a Brook Lopez and a Jaren Jackson. Or a Porzingis/healthy Rob Williams and Al Horford. Big, rim-protecting defenders that can shoot. And floor-spacing versatile defenders that can defend the perimeter and switch. They've got more options on defense than Jokic does because he can only play the center position. Yet Denver made it work.

[Kblaze8855]

Wouldn't he just be an undersized Giannis with way worse defense? Teams will hunt him and force him to switch. His rebounding and offense will suffer because of this.

The things people do to stop Giannis would not apply to Charles. Outside neither one of them being reliable outside shooters they aren’t that similar in approach. Charles was incredibly polished And deliberate. He was athletic and explosive enough to do the bull in a China shop drives, but he played with a lot of control and his own pace. If you built a so-called wall in front of him in the mid range, he would just look at you like an idiot and shoot over it like Embiid.

And he was definitely a worse defender, but it was more about effort than anything. He made jaw dropping defensive plays. And he was both quick enough for Wings and strong enough to guard Shaq. You could work something out.

He was too prideful to just let you switch and keep cooking him. He’s not going out there to Trae Young in the first place. For all the talk about forced switches you don’t see guys like Steven Adams or other traditional bigs stuck on an island at 30 feet every time they check in.

A lot of switches are just allowed because people don’t give a ****.

Crucial moments too. Teams just let you do it.

I was listening to Klay Thompson talk about his greatest basketball regret was just letting Kyrie get Steph on an island at the end of game seven. He just casually acquiesced to the switch. Teams do that dumb shit all the time. It’s just built in to switch. It doesn’t have to be allowed and there are many gameplans to minimize it now that versions of the zone are allowed.

Minus illegal defense, quite a few of the forced isolation situations of the past are gone.

[tpols]

Wouldn't he just be an undersized Giannis with way worse defense? Teams will hunt him and force him to switch. His rebounding and offense will suffer because of this.

Barkley actually had money midrange jumper and overall scoring bag. For a tough guy, he was a great shooter.

Offensively there's really no comparison between their skillsets or styles at all.

The guy won MVP over peak Jordan and barely lost to him on the highest level. So... he was a pretty effective player.

[SouBeachTalents]

Barkley actually had money midrange jumper and overall scoring bag. For a tough guy, he was a great shooter.

Offensively there's really no comparison between their skillsets or styles at all.

The guy won MVP over peak Jordan and barely lost to him on the highest level. So... he was a pretty effective player.
Giannis has more rings, so that makes him better.

[tpols]

Giannis has more rings, so that makes him better.

Competition was trash in 2021. Milwaukee literally made the Finals with Giannis sitting out. 0% chance the Bucks or Giannis beat MJ and the 90s Bulls.

Sprinting wildly head first into a packed paint wouldn't work vs 90s defenses. You needed to have post nuance and skill to navigate that environment as a big man.

[Kblaze8855]

They made the Finals without Giannis because they were playing a team whose best player that hurt in game three and made four shots the rest of the series while sitting out most of it. He definitely powered them to the ring. Hes likely having a better career. And the defense while scoring about the same(relative to era) could be said to give him the edge. But I don’t think he’d be as good as Barkley in Barkley’s time. It’s hard to say how much his game changes if all the league did was call obvious dribbling violations. The rule changes and disregarding of carrying allowed tall people to be guards. Barkley might well be an attacking wing with those rules. Or at least have the option.

Big guys like Giannis can’t change direction without a carry because so few of them get low to handle the ball like Lamar Odom. They just don’t have to because the league doesn’t care anymore. You call a game like it’s 1988 Giannis is an entirely different player.

I’m a fan of both of them, but it is what it is.

That said the five second back down would change Charles as well.

It’s fun To think about but pretty pointless to speculate. Too many changes to be fair to either side. Everyone’s individual bias just makes them emphasize the change that makes the guy they want to be better look better. I’m sure I’m not immune to it either.

[Norcaliblunt]

I watched this game live at a bowling alley. It was my first time ever seeing Shaq play.

[Im Still Ballin]

A RealGM poster tracked Charles Barkley's stats in 100 games between 1988-1996. His scoring at the rim was tremendous (81% on 8.15 rim FGAs per game) and his mid-range was good (41.6% on 5.31 mid-range FGAs per game).

A play-type breakdown is also included for 84 of the games. You can see what types of plays he's primarily scoring from. There's also an isolation play breakdown that gets even more specific.

In these games, he averaged 4.4 post-up possessions per game, 7.8 isolation possessions per game, 2.5 offensive rebound putback possessions per game, 1.0 cut possession per game, 1.3 finish possessions per game, and 1.3 transition possessions per game.


100 Game Sample

At Rim: 660/815 FG (81.0%)
In Paint (Overall): 730/1051 FG (69.4%)
Mid-Range: 221/531 FG (41.6%)
3 Point: 73/243 FG (30.0%)

https://i.ibb.co/6Dc6FGN/PwkuFoX.png
https://i.ibb.co/NKHwg5h/9F5ZfRa.png


Synergy Play-type Breakdown 1988-1996 (84 games):

Explanation:


I have added an extra category called Finish, which is basically all the plays when a guard would drive the lane and create a shot for him to just go up and finish. There are several sub-categories out of Isolation, and the Spot Up category is referring to jump shots only. PPP stands for Points Per Play. As excellent as he was in the low post and on the offensive glass, he was indefensible when cutting to the hoop off the ball. Also as bad a shooter as he was in a catch and shoot or spot up play, he was a tremendous 3 point shooter in isolation when he had a chance to set his feet and line up his set shot. He always took a few shots every game since he felt if he made the first shot or two, then it would open up his inside game.

https://i.ibb.co/jknS5GX/V0TZP3e.png

Isolation-specific breakdown:

https://i.ibb.co/2jCVpvK/ahox1mg.png

Games included:


Dec 22, 1992 - Warriors vs. Suns
Feb 7, 1993 - Magic vs. Suns *4 FGA
Mar 3, 1993 - Sixers vs. Suns
Mar 23, 1993 - Knicks vs. Suns
Mar 28, 1993 - Suns vs. Sixers (2nd Half Only) *12 FGA
Mar 30, 1993 - Suns vs. Bulls
Apr 2, 1993 - Suns vs. Celtics
Apr 6, 1993 - Lakers vs. Suns
1993 Playoffs Suns vs. Spurs (Full Series)
1993 Playoffs Suns vs. Sonics (Full Series)
1993 Finals Suns vs. Bulls (Full Series)

Nov 30, 1987 - Sixers vs. Jazz
Nov 8, 1988 - Pistons vs. Sixers
Nov 16, 1988 - Bulls vs. Sixers
Dec 28, 1988 - Sixers vs. Lakers
Mar 16, 1989 - Sixers vs. Knicks
Nov 14, 1989 - Sixers vs. Celtics
Mar 11, 1990 - Sixers vs. Celtics
Apr 7, 1990 - Sixers vs. Hawks
Apr 19, 1990 - Sixers vs. Pistons
1990 Playoffs Game 5 Sixers vs. Cavs
1990 Playoffs Sixers vs. Bulls (Full Series)
Nov 2, 1990 - Sixers vs. Bulls *2 FGA
Nov 30, 1990 - Sixers vs. Pistons
Dec 28, 1990 - Sixers vs. Suns
Jan 9, 1991 - Bulls vs. Sixers
1991 Playoffs Sixers vs. Bulls (Full Series)
Nov 1, 1991 - Sixers vs. Bulls
Nov 22, 1991 - Hawks vs. Sixers (Incomplete) *8 FGA
Mar 8, 1992 - Bulls vs. Sixers
Apr 4, 1992 - Sixers vs. Hawks

Dec 4, 1987 - Sonics vs. Sixers *2 FGA
Mar 23, 1988 - Bulls vs. Sixers
Nov 28, 1988 - Lakers vs. Sixers
1989 Playoffs Gm. 2 Sixers vs. Knicks
1989 Playoffs Gm. 3 Knicks vs. Sixers
Nov 17, 1989 - Spurs vs. Sixers *2 FGA
Dec 7, 1990 - Nuggets vs. Sixers
Mar 17, 1991 - Sixers vs. Celtics
1994 Playoffs Warriors vs. Suns (Full Series) *5 FGA
1994 Playoffs Suns vs. Rockets (Full Series) * 6 FGA
Mar 13, 1994 - Suns vs. Magic
Jan 17, 1995 - Nuggets vs. Suns *4 FGA
Jan 22, 1995 - Magic vs. Suns *2 FGA
Feb 7, 1995 - Suns vs. Mavericks
Mar 16, 1995 - Suns vs. Hornets
Mar 21, 1995 - Suns vs. Magic *1 FGA
1995 Playoffs Gm. 3 Suns vs. Blazers
Jan 28, 1996 - Suns vs. Bulls
Feb 6, 1996 - Bulls vs. Suns
1996 Playoffs Gm. 2 Suns vs. Spurs
Nov 2, 1996 - Rockets vs. Suns

[16 games below not included in play-type breakdown]

Nov. 28, 1987 - Sixers vs. Kings
Dec. 22, 1987 - Sixers vs. Celtics
Nov. 18, 1988 - Sixers vs. Knicks
Jan. 26, 1990 - Sixers vs. Bulls
Feb. 7, 1990 - Sixers vs. Warriors
Feb. 23, 1990 - Sixers vs. Lakers
Jan. 4, 1991 - Sixers vs. Jazz
Mar. 12, 1991 - Sixers vs. Hawks
Jan. 14, 1992 - Sixers vs. Bulls
1995 Playoffs Suns vs. Rockets (Full Series)

[90sgoat]

Wouldn't he just be an undersized Giannis with way worse defense? Teams will hunt him and force him to switch. His rebounding and offense will suffer because of this.

Barkley was league leading in the post and it wasn't lobs and easy put ins either. Better to think of him as a 6'6'' center on offense imo.

[90sgoat]

The things people do to stop Giannis would not apply to Charles. Outside neither one of them being reliable outside shooters they aren’t that similar in approach. Charles was incredibly polished And deliberate. He was athletic and explosive enough to do the bull in a China shop drives, but he played with a lot of control and his own pace. If you built a so-called wall in front of him in the mid range, he would just look at you like an idiot and shoot over it like Embiid.

And he was definitely a worse defender, but it was more about effort than anything. He made jaw dropping defensive plays. And he was both quick enough for Wings and strong enough to guard Shaq. You could work something out.

He was too prideful to just let you switch and keep cooking him. He’s not going out there to Trae Young in the first place. For all the talk about forced switches you don’t see guys like Steven Adams or other traditional bigs stuck on an island at 30 feet every time they check in.

A lot of switches are just allowed because people don’t give a ****.

Crucial moments too. Teams just let you do it.

I was listening to Klay Thompson talk about his greatest basketball regret was just letting Kyrie get Steph on an island at the end of game seven. He just casually acquiesced to the switch. Teams do that dumb shit all the time. It’s just built in to switch. It doesn’t have to be allowed and there are many gameplans to minimize it now that versions of the zone are allowed.

Minus illegal defense, quite a few of the forced isolation situations of the past are gone.

:cheers:

Sir Charles was big ticket.

[90sgoat]

A RealGM poster tracked Charles Barkley's stats in 100 games between 1988-1996. His scoring at the rim was tremendous (81% on 8.15 rim FGAs per game) and his mid-range was good (41.6% on 5.31 mid-range FGAs per game).

A play-type breakdown is also included for 84 of the games. You can see what types of plays he's primarily scoring from. There's also an isolation play breakdown that gets even more specific.

In these games, he averaged 4.4 post-up possessions per game, 7.8 isolation possessions per game, 2.5 offensive rebound putback possessions per game, 1.0 cut possession per game, 1.3 finish possessions per game, and 1.3 transition possessions per game.





Games included:

Incredible, both the effort to track and Barkley.

This proves that Barkley had a complete game.

Shooting close to 30% on 3s in that era proves longe range abilty and his 40% from midrange is not Jordan-like, but in a much more packed paint, is still pretty good.

[Im Still Ballin]

Incredible, both the effort to track and Barkley.

This proves that Barkley had a complete game.

Shooting close to 30% on 3s in that era proves longe range abilty and his 40% from midrange is not Jordan-like, but in a much more packed paint, is still pretty good.

The mid-range numbers are actually really solid. For comparison, Kobe shot the following:

- 45.1% on 8.9 mid-range FGAs per game in 2009-10
- 42% on 9.3 mid-range FGAs per game in 2008-09
- 38.8% on 8.0 mid-range FGAs per game in 2007-08
- 43.9% on 9.8 mid-range FGAs per game in 2006-07
- 42.4% on 12.2 mid-range FGAs per game in 2005-06

[iamgine]

The things people do to stop Giannis would not apply to Charles. Outside neither one of them being reliable outside shooters they aren’t that similar in approach. Charles was incredibly polished And deliberate. He was athletic and explosive enough to do the bull in a China shop drives, but he played with a lot of control and his own pace. If you built a so-called wall in front of him in the mid range, he would just look at you like an idiot and shoot over it like Embiid.

And he was definitely a worse defender, but it was more about effort than anything. He made jaw dropping defensive plays. And he was both quick enough for Wings and strong enough to guard Shaq. You could work something out.

He was too prideful to just let you switch and keep cooking him. He’s not going out there to Trae Young in the first place. For all the talk about forced switches you don’t see guys like Steven Adams or other traditional bigs stuck on an island at 30 feet every time they check in.

A lot of switches are just allowed because people don’t give a ****.

Crucial moments too. Teams just let you do it.

I was listening to Klay Thompson talk about his greatest basketball regret was just letting Kyrie get Steph on an island at the end of game seven. He just casually acquiesced to the switch. Teams do that dumb shit all the time. It’s just built in to switch. It doesn’t have to be allowed and there are many gameplans to minimize it now that versions of the zone are allowed.

Minus illegal defense, quite a few of the forced isolation situations of the past are gone.

I've seen James Harden shut people down too on defense. Are we not gonna call him bad defensive player just cause he's capable but unwilling? You're talking idealized version of things that isn't real.

[Im Still Ballin]

Here are Giannis Antetokoumpo's shot charts for last year (73 games):

https://i.ibb.co/SJ4x66n/FGA-for-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-during-the-2023-24-Regular-Season.png

https://i.ibb.co/PwzZ2Xf/FGA-for-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-during-the-2023-24-Regular-Season-1.png

[Kblaze8855]

I've seen James Harden shut people down too on defense. Are we not gonna call him bad defensive player just cause he's capable but unwilling? You're talking idealized version of things that isn't real.

actually, I’m talking about what actually happened. Him being a lazy but capable defender in a league with very different defensive rules. You’re assuming what he would be in a game we have never seen him play, In defenses we have never seen him given the option to play as a pro, and assuming how he would be targeted when we routinely watch bad defenders who don’t even have his physical talent to play it not be targeted all game.

I’ve said the game changed too much to really compare it. Every assumption you wanna make is offset or at least altered by another you have to make. People are simply not playing the same
game on either end.

he could realistically be guarding Paul George at the four or playing a team where he can sit on a guy like PJ Tucker somehow playing center in the corner. There’s been too much change to really say how he would be deployed for sure, but I can definitely say there are way less physically capable defenders out there not being targeted as much as people would assume.

Colin Sexton absolutely cooked Jokic till he got pissed and took him out in transition but when you can’t guard him on the other end it doesn’t much matter. And it turns out not every team is even able to isolate him like that. Many don’t even try. And some that do…you just don’t switch.

None of it is set in stone. You just figure out your gameplan and go. One thing I’m pretty sure of is if your game plan to defend him doesn’t include pretty heavy and often early double teams he’s going to shoot somewhere in the 60s from the field.

[Im Still Ballin]

Yeah, there are actually several advantages in the modern NBA today for hiding a weak defender that wasn't there in the past.

For starters, players are more versatile on offense and defense, particularly big men. This makes more types of lineups viable. Secondly, there's no illegal defense, so you can more readily implement zone defense principles and help defense strategies like peel-switching and pre-switching.

It can actually be kind of hard to attack someone if they keep preemptively switching off-ball to the guy in the corner. Any team that spends an entire shot clock looking for that guy is going to score poorly. At a certain point you have to look for a good shot with the time you have in the possession.

Covering for Chuck would be easier than Jokic because he can be put on an SF, PF, or C. Nikola's kind of locked into the center spot. They tried playing him with Plumlee and Nurkic in the past and it wasn't pretty. But despite that lineup inflexibility, Denver made it work; they were the 8th-best defense last season and had an elite clutch and playoff defense in 2023 when they won the championship.

And I'm sure Denver could have a top 3-5 defense if they had better defenders around Jokic. Someone like Jaren Jackson Jr alone would probably do it. Add a Caruso as well and they'd be a lock.

I think Dallas had the best or 2nd-best defense in the league after they acquired PJ Washington and Daniel Gafford. When healthy, that defense was elite and it showed in the playoffs. I think Chuck's an easier guy to defensively cover than Luka.

[Im Still Ballin]

Thanks to Harvey Pollack (Philly's former long-time statistician) we also have play-by-play data going back to the late '70s for the 76ers.

https://i.ibb.co/LhSDV67/fmqox74-d.webp

Chuck's net defensive rating (how many points the opponent scored per 100 possessions when he's on the court vs. off it) was -1.1 from 1984-85 to 1989-1990. Meaning, his team was 1.1 points better on defense when he was on the court. Across the entirety of his prime, he probably averages out close to a neutral net defensive rating.


Based on the plus/minus data, Sixers Barkley looks solid on defense until the last two years (1991/1992)

1985: -0.9
1986: -2.3
1987: -4.8
1988: +1.4
1989: -0.4
1990: +0.6

6 Year Average: -1.1 Net DRtg

[dankok8]

Chuck is way more skilled and better offensively than Giannis. Teams couldn't easily game-plan Barkley out of the game the way they can Giannis because Chuck dominated in the post and was an elite offensive rebounder. Giannis is more better overall because of defense but Barkley is also way more durable and never missed playoff games in his prime whereas Giannis is hurt in almost every postseason.