Stop attacking & scapegoating Luka's defensive performance - it isn't why Mavs losing

[3ba11]

Hunting Luka on defense (iso-ball) isn't a great brand of ball that would get blown away by better brand of ball like if the Mavs had a prime-Curry or Jokic brand of ball..

Here's a couple realities.. Firstly, everyone is picking on Luka's defense as the scapegoat to explain why their pick was so wrong - many people had Dallas easily winning this series so think about how horrifically-wrong that is and a misunderstanding of basketball... It's horrific, so people are using Luka's defense to explain their own low understanding of the game.

Here's the 2nd reality... Since Luka's individual defense isn't a primary driver for the Mavs' loss, we can look elsewhere..

The entire Boston team got hot in game 3 and the question is why does this always happen to Lebron and Luka's teams?? ... Why do opponents always "get hot"??.. The answer is intuitive.. Unlike zippy ball movement that wears down defenses and leaves them less capacity for offense, ball-domination lets a defense rest and stay fresh as a daisy, so they eventually get hot - the Mavs always have max requirements on defense by facing fresh opponents that aren't being worn down by superior brand of ball.

If Dallas had better brand of ball and chemistry on offense, they would have lower defensive requirements by facing opponents that are worn down by the superior brand and less likely to get hot.. And better offensive chemistry produces better defensive chemistry.

[ShawkFactory]

The entire Boston team got hot in game 3

Yea?

[3ba11]

Yea?


Yea they went on a run a got up 20 on the road - they were scoring every possession for a stretch there and put the game away.. it's always the opponents that have superior spurtability while Luka and Lebron's teammates underperform within their team's weaker chemistry & ball movement

Now that I addressed your deflection, why don't you address the fact that everyone is scapegoating Luka's defense when it's their offensive brand of ball that is nowhere near the Celtics.. Porzingas would've fit in Dallas if not for the offensive side of the ball and bad fits with Luka's ball-domination

[ShawkFactory]

Now that I addressed your deflection

Oh is that what we're calling moving the goal posts when we realize that we're wrong? :lol

[gengiskhan]

Luka is the Problem

Luka will remain a Problem because he cannot play a WHOLE game!

getting 28 pts in 1st half is easier. Legs are fresher. Pressure is less.

I'll take Dr Brown's 24 Pts in 2nd Half which is much tougher in a winning effort.

And I always sick of LBJ complaining to refs entire game.

Luka is just on the same level. always beatching, moarning, whole game.

I dont see Kyrie doing that. I dont see Tatum doing that. I never see Brown do that.

other stars just straight up ball.

[1987_Lakers]

I saw a stat the other day that Luka has allowed the most blow-by's out of any player in the postseason in the last 10 years or something.

[SouBeachTalents]

I saw a stat the other day that Luka has allowed the most blow-by's out of any player in the postseason in the last 10 years or something.
But OP said Luka’s defense doesn’t matter, and he’s a very knowledgeable poster who’s definitely watched these Finals, so I think I’ll go with his well informed opinion over these “facts” you’re trying to sell.

[RogueBorg]

It's hilarious how Windhorst is criticizing Luka for playing like this when it's literally how Lebron's been playing for years. The constant complaining to the refs and not getting back on defense has been Lebron's MO for years. The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

[NBAGOAT]

It's hilarious how Windhorst is criticizing Luka for playing like this when it's literally how Lebron's been playing for years. The constant complaining to the refs and not getting back on defense has been Lebron's MO for years. The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

Lebron doesn’t get picked out in isos even when he was his laziest on defense. Lebron also abuses switches more though tbf that’s part Luka being more of a guard. He’s blowing by horford and overpowering white or jrue. Celtics double and the role players will get good looks

[FKAri]

Can OP make a post, not a thread but a single post, without referencing Bron?

[90sgoat]

It's true, Luka's defense is not the reason the Mavs have lost.

Their offense hasn't been good enough to score 100 points even once.

Luka ball can work, but yes, it's going to need some better role players.

Imagine like I asked in a different thread if Luka had the equivalent of Chris Bosh or Kevin Love instead of PJ Washington?

If Luka had Sabonis? or just Kyle Kuzma?

Luka ball is better than Lebron ball, but it does need better role players to win a ring.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's true, Luka's defense is not the reason the Mavs have lost.

Their offense hasn't been good enough to score 100 points even once.

Luka ball can work, but yes, it's going to need some better role players.

Imagine like I asked in a different thread if Luka had the equivalent of Chris Bosh or Kevin Love instead of PJ Washington?

If Luka had Sabonis? or just Kyle Kuzma?

Luka ball is better than Lebron ball, but it does need better role players to win a ring.
https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdThoNnZ5dGR2anhsNHFtMm50d3NwdnR kOWlmYWxtMmgxNWRvdnY3NCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/L4fOLr8aB3d3BYQUfq/giphy.webp

LeBron ball with Kyrie won a championship. Btw, Love averaged less ppg in those Finals than Gafford is in these.

[warriorfan]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExdThoNnZ5dGR2anhsNHFtMm50d3NwdnR kOWlmYWxtMmgxNWRvdnY3NCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/L4fOLr8aB3d3BYQUfq/giphy.webp

LeBron ball with Kyrie won a championship. Btw, Love averaged less ppg in those Finals than Gafford is in these.

Wait wait wait wait. Let me get this straight, you are about to argue Luka has better supporting casts than bron???

Is this what you are really trying to say.

Think about it carefully before posting again.

[1987_Lakers]

Wait wait wait wait. Let me get this straight, you are about to argue Luka has better supporting casts than bron???

Is this what you are really trying to say.

Think about it carefully before posting again.
The Cavs 3rd best player in that 16 Finals series was Tristan Thompson, that's not saying much.

[3ba11]

The Cavs 3rd best player in that 16 Finals series was Tristan Thompson, that's not saying much.


It's insanely valuable to have a 26/13 HOF play a 5th option role and average 8 ppg - it shows how talented the Cavs were that they didn't need him to play anywhere near full capacity..

The Cavs were the preseason favorite because they were the only team in the league with 3 franchise players compared to 1 for the warriors

If you gave someone like Curry, MJ or Kobe a third option like Love or Bosh, their superior chemistry and brand of ball would allow Bosh to play to capacity, which would make their team the "not 6, not 7" dynasty that was expected.. The same goes for Love.. The 3rd option reduction in Lebron-ball is the biggest reason his teams never reached the dynasty expectation that every 3-star team has.

[tpols]

Guys...

I think it's about time we give 3ball his flowers.

We need to appreciate genius before it's gone.

[3ba11]

But OP said Luka’s defense doesn’t matter, and he’s a very knowledgeable poster who’s definitely watched these Finals, so I think I’ll go with his well informed opinion over these “facts” you’re trying to sell.



2024 CELTICS

REGULAR SEASON..... 121 PPG..... 123 ORTG
FINALS'.................... 106 PPG..... 116 ORTG


Tell me, what does it feel like to be this wrong about a series?

Again, Dallas is playing great defense but simply lacks the brand of ball to score the measly 107 ppg that it would require to beat this team... This is Jason Kidd's fault and his inability to develop elite chemistry and brand of ball outside of Luka's ball-domination.

Luka's ball-domination lets a defense rest, so they have more capacity for offense and eventually "get hot"... The Mavs face max defensive requirements because the opponent is fresh from not being worn down defensively.., Otoh, the Mavs are worn down by the Celtics' zippy ball movement and have less capacity for offense.. The only time the Mavs have a chance is when the Celtics dick around and start playing Luka-ball

[90sgoat]

The Cavs 3rd best player in that 16 Finals series was Tristan Thompson, that's not saying much.

Why are people and bronies always downplaying Tristan Thompson? He's still in the league and still one of the greatest offensive rebounders of all time.

He's not Dennis Rodman, but he is one of the best offensive rebounders in the history of the game (4.4 pr. 36 for career) and he was also a competent defender and lob catcher.

[1987_Lakers]

It's insanely valuable to have a 26/13 HOF play a 5th option role and average 8 ppg - it shows how talented the Cavs were that they didn't need him to play anywhere near full capacity..

The Cavs were the preseason favorite because they were the only team in the league with 3 franchise players compared to 1 for the warriors

If you gave someone like Curry, MJ or Kobe a third option like Love or Bosh, their superior chemistry and brand of ball would allow Bosh to play to capacity, which would make their team the "not 6, not 7" dynasty that was expected.. The same goes for Love.. The 3rd option reduction in Lebron-ball is the biggest reason his teams never reached the dynasty expectation that every 3-star team has.

All this BS goes out the window when you realize Love also played like shit during the '18 run.

[90sgoat]

There's a difference between not putting up good stats and playing like shit.

Love didn't play like shit. If you want to see players play like shit look at someone like DJJ and Gafford, though I love them both, but they're playing like they have no brain a lot of the time, because of being outmatched.

Love didn't put up a lot of stats, but he was still good enough to hang, to make the correct decisions.

[SouBeachTalents]

2024 CELTICS

REGULAR SEASON..... 121 PPG..... 123 ORTG
FINALS'.................... 106 PPG..... 116 ORTG


Tell me, what does it feel like to be this wrong about a series?

Again, Dallas is playing great defense but simply lacks the brand of ball to score the measly 107 ppg that it would require to beat this team... This is Jason Kidd's fault and his inability to develop elite chemistry and brand of ball outside of Luka's ball-domination.

Luka's ball-domination lets a defense rest, so they have more capacity for offense and eventually "get hot"... The Mavs face max defensive requirements because the opponent is fresh from not being worn down defensively.., Otoh, the Mavs are worn down by the Celtics' zippy ball movement and have less capacity for offense.. The only time the Mavs have a chance is when the Celtics dick around and start playing Luka-ball
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/luka-doncics-defense-hits-shameful-levels-with-mavericks-on-brink-of-being-swept-by-celtics/

This is why it helps to actually watch the games.

[sdot_thadon]

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/luka-doncics-defense-hits-shameful-levels-with-mavericks-on-brink-of-being-swept-by-celtics/

This is why it helps to actually watch the games.

Shhh, wait till he hears through the fax machine that Boston actually executes a ton of drive and kick and matchup hunting in their offense too.....

[3ba11]

Shhh, wait till he hears through the fax machine that Boston actually executes a ton of drive and kick and matchup hunting in their offense too.....


Every time the Celtics scored, someone was getting burned like that - that's how scrambling defenders and today's spaced out game plays, yet some yahoo put together a video that cherry-picked Luka's - just because their pick for the series turned out to be absurdly wrong

Boston is very beatable by virtue of averaging only 107 ppg against a crap brand of ball, so their weak ppg isn't from getting worn down defensively - they simply aren't that good and have inconsistent and/or choking offensive players...

Unfortunately, Dallas and Luka-ball are even less worthy of championship-level basketball because that brand has proven to have the worst record ever on the championship level (lebron-ball).. For example, we saw the Pistons be the worst team in the league this season, but they still won 12 games - similarly, Lebron and Luka-ball are the "Pistons of the Finals"... They can win a Finals but how many losses does it take first?.... ANY team will win if given enough tries, even the pistons in the regular season or a Lebron team in the Finals.

Tbh, any team that won a Finals against a Lebron or Luka team should have an asterisk because those brands are known to have worst-ever, lottery records on the championship level over large samples.. They're confirmed the worst comp possible.. Infact, Lebron and his teammates are the only guys that have losing Finals records over large samples (4+ Finals) since 1980.. Luka and his teammates will be the 2nd that has losing Finals records over 4+ Finals unless his coach implements better ball movement.

[j3lademaster]

I saw a stat the other day that Luka has allowed the most blow-by's out of any player in the postseason in the last 10 years or something.

https://x.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1801244832150511912

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GP9OoLSWsAAVC3h?format=jpg&name=small

Apparently if we go by overall defensive metrics, Luka is the worst playoff defender in relative to the rest of the league ever. Worse than Ice Trae.

[ShawkFactory]

Guys...

I think it's about time we give 3ball his flowers.

We need to appreciate genius before it's gone.

Cuckiest comment I’ve seen in a while bro.

Come to the true genius side.

Lebron is that side.

[3ba11]

https://x.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1801244832150511912

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GP9OoLSWsAAVC3h?format=jpg&name=small

Apparently if we go by overall defensive metrics, Luka is the worst playoff defender in relative to the rest of the league ever. Worse than Ice Trae.


Again, see the thread title and OP - who cares - it's a meaningless stat and a pure scapegoat to explain everyone's horrible pick.... Dallas is playing great defense by holding Boston to 15 ppg below their regular season average and 7 points less in ORTG thru 3 games..

So defense isn't the reason that Dallas is inferior to Boston - it's the obvious chasm in offensive brand of ball seen by the 2 teams, which allowed Boston to build a high-chemistry juggernaut over time that can fit in good pieces each year, while Dallas has weak fits with good players like Porzingas and therefore relegated to simple bigs like Gafford fit a simpleton brand of ball

[And1AllDay]

Can OP make a post, not a thread but a single post, without referencing Bron?

no he cant

[DMAVS41]

Again, see the thread title and OP - who cares - it's a meaningless stat and a pure scapegoat to explain everyone's horrible pick.... Dallas is playing great defense by holding Boston to 15 ppg below their regular season average and 7 points less in ORTG thru 3 games..

So defense isn't the reason that Dallas is inferior to Boston - it's the obvious chasm in offensive brand of ball seen by the 2 teams, which allowed Boston to build a high-chemistry juggernaut over time that can fit in good pieces each year, while Dallas has weak fits with good players like Porzingas and therefore relegated to simple bigs like Gafford fit a simpleton brand of ball

It isn't as clear cut as you are making it out to be. Defense impacts offense and vice versa.

Luka's defense through the first 3 games was a big problem. However, so were his turnovers...and so was Kyrie's horrible first two games and the lack of role player shooting as well. It's all connected though...Luka getting torched that badly on defense matters.

None of that really has anything to do with the style of Luka....he just didn't play as well as he is capable of on either end in the first 3 games. You saw tonight what he can do even when he's ice cold from 3....

[ShawkFactory]

2024 CELTICS

REGULAR SEASON..... 121 PPG..... 123 ORTG
FINALS'.................... 106 PPG..... 116 ORTG


Tell me, what does it feel like to be this wrong about a series?

Again, Dallas is playing great defense but simply lacks the brand of ball to score the measly 107 ppg that it would require to beat this team... This is Jason Kidd's fault and his inability to develop elite chemistry and brand of ball outside of Luka's ball-domination.

Luka's ball-domination lets a defense rest, so they have more capacity for offense and eventually "get hot"... The Mavs face max defensive requirements because the opponent is fresh from not being worn down defensively.., Otoh, the Mavs are worn down by the Celtics' zippy ball movement and have less capacity for offense.. The only time the Mavs have a chance is when the Celtics dick around and start playing Luka-ball

Dude you’re talking about a brand of ball allowing another team to “get hot” in your post…while leading your post with how said team that’s supposed to be “hot” has been far worse offensively than they’ve normally been.

I typically understand your game but you’ve done a complete twist on that one. Keep ‘em comin’.

[3ba11]

All this BS goes out the window when you realize Love also played like shit during the '18 run.


Love averaged 20/10 against the only top 5 SRS teams that Lebron faced in the 18' Playoffs (Raptors, Warriors), so Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team in his career with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick.. So again, Love came through against the top teams but on-paper production means nothing without a brand of ball and chemistry that wins the attrition battle (wears down the opponent defensively, so they have less capacity for offense and less capacity to "get hot")...

Again, Lebron and Luka's problem is that they waste production from teammates by getting that production with a ball-dominant brand that doesn't wear down defenses (win the attrition battle).. Since Lebron and Luka don't wear down defenses and face fresh opponents, their teams have max defensive requirements that are unsustainable - these requirements increase as the game progresses because the opponent isn't getting worn down by a great brand of ball, so they eventually "get hot"... Meanwhile, the opposite is happening with Luka or Lebron's team - their team's offensive capacity is decreasing as the game progresses because their defense is getting worn down by superior brand of ball (zippy ball movement).

Ultimately, siunce their skillsets lose the attrition battle against the top teams, they can't compete on the championship level and have a lottery record on the championship level.. Lebron and his teammates are the only players with a losing record over meaningful sample size (4+ Finals) since 1980 (3-pointer history).

[3ba11]

Dude you’re talking about a brand of ball allowing another team to “get hot” in your post…while leading your post with how said team that’s supposed to be “hot” has been far worse offensively than they’ve normally been.

I typically understand your game but you’ve done a complete twist on that one. Keep ‘em comin’.


It's an attrition battle, so it's relative - Boston is hot compared to Dallas by virtue of shooting 55.0 efg (2's and 3's combined efficiency) compared to 48.0 for the Mavs.. Again, Boston is getting worn down somewhat by guarding to juggernauts like Kyrie and Luka, but they're wearing out Dallas more via ball movement, hence the difference in efficiency..

The Celtics have a 26 to 15 advantage in team assists per game, so this is congruent with Lebron having massive deficits in team assists for ALL of his playoff losses in the last 10 years, not just his Finals losses... Bron or Luka-ball is low-assist-ball that loses the attrition battle against the top brands of ball and therefore has a lottery record on the championship level (can't compete on the championship level).

[ShawkFactory]

It's an attrition battle, so it's relative - Boston is hot compared to Dallas by virtue of shooting 55.0 efg (2's and 3's combined efficiency) compared to 48.0 for the Mavs.. Again, Boston is getting worn down somewhat by guarding to juggernauts like Kyrie and Luka, but they're wearing out Dallas more via ball movement, hence the difference in efficiency..

The Celtics have a 26 to 15 advantage in team assists per game, so this is congruent with Lebron having massive deficits in team assists for ALL of his playoff losses in the last 10 years, not just his Finals losses... Bron or Luka-ball is low-assist-ball that loses the attrition battle against the top brands of ball and therefore has a lottery record on the championship level (can't compete on the championship level).

Square peg into a round hole :lol

[tpols]

In this case, I don't think Lukas style of play is the problem. You keep talking about porzingis... he got hurt in the playoffs with Luka. He literally didn't play. Just like how he hasn't played in 90% of Bostons playoff games.

Luka has led a WCF team and Finals team potentially the champion... at age 25. He didn't shit the bed like young Lebron... dude is averaging a 30 point triple double. The only reason the mavs are down right now is kyrie has underperformed and the role players were shook.

That's all about to change though.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yes, continue to use series Luka was clear underdogs in as "evidence" your dumbass theory works. Idiot :lol

Lmao, made 3ball delete his entire post

[3ba11]

In this case, I don't think Lukas style of play is the problem. You keep talking about porzingis... he got hurt in the playoffs with Luka. He literally didn't play. Just like how he hasn't played in 90% of Bostons playoff games.

Luka has led a WCF team and Finals team potentially the champion... at age 25. He didn't shit the bed like young Lebron... dude is averaging a 30 point triple double. The only reason the mavs are down right now is kyrie has underperformed and the role players were shook.

That's all about to change though.


Luka might be better than Lebron, but I don't see a difference in results (winning) of his ball-dominant style of play - he's getting smashed by Finals teams just like Lebron did - this includes the 22' Warriors or these Celtics... Surely if he was a player that facilitated great ball movement and chemistry the way high-assisted players do such as Jokic, Curry, or Tatum, he would develop dominant juggernauts like they do... Instead, his ball-dominance is repeatedly failing to develop juggernauts and dominant teams despite many star teammates like Brunson, Kyrie, or even Porzingas..

Luka's team has a massive deficit in team assists through 3 games (26 to 15 per game) and this scrambling defensively from ball movement is leaving the Mavs less capacity for offense and shooting much worse than the Celtics (48 to 55 efg thru 3 games), aka losing the attrition battle.

All of this is just like Lebron, so even though Luka is better than Lebron, the results of this brand of ball is the same - it gets smashed on the championship level.. Lebron and his teammates are the only guys with a losing Finals record over a meaningful sample size (4+ Finals), since the beginning of 3-pointer basketball.. Luka and his teammates will become the 2nd group of guys that have a losing record in the Finals over a meaningful sample (once Luka has 4+ Finals)..

If there was a player that averaged a "heliocentric" 50/20/20, his teammates would always underperform in the obvious spot-up roles that they would have and the team would still have a losing record on the championship level.. The story would STILL be that his teammates stunk and he needs new ones - standard procedure for all high-scoring, ball-dominators.. Since they can't develop elite chemistry, they always need more talent (more help)..

Indeed, high-scoring ball-dominators never really learned effective basketball/how to win, aka chemistry development - Luka is struggling with that now - hopefully he will change his style of play instead of being like a fly hitting a window repeatedly like Lebron did with his high-scoring, ball-domination (unable to compete on championship level, aka 22-33).

[tpols]

Surely if he was a player that facilitated great ball movement and chemistry the way high-assisted players do such as Jokic, Curry, or Tatum, he would develop dominant juggernauts


Bro...

Jokic got BEAT by the same team Luka destroyed in The WCFs this very year.

And Curry didn't even make the playoffs despite averaging his usual numbers.

Where did their brand of ball get them? Less than Luka factually.

You keep trying to boil everything down to one factor when there's a million factors involved.

[Carbine]

Bro...

Jokic got BEAT by the same team Luka destroyed in The WCFs this very year.

And Curry didn't even make the playoffs despite averaging his usual numbers.

Where did their brand of ball get them? Less than Luka factually.

You keep trying to boil everything down to one factor when there's a million factors involved.

See what you're capable of when not trolling. Good post, keep it up.

[3ba11]

Bro...

Jokic got BEAT by the same team Luka destroyed in The WCFs this very year.

And Curry didn't even make the playoffs despite averaging his usual numbers.

Where did their brand of ball get them? Less than Luka factually.

You keep trying to boil everything down to one factor when there's a million factors involved.


Jokic, Curry, and Tatum developed dominant champions or dynasties, whereas Luka and Lebron never will due to their obviously inferior brand of ball that prevents the best chemistry and therefore needs more talent (more help)..

On the championship level, Lebron and Luka have underwhelming teams and underperforming casts regardless of cast because their skillset emits an inferior brand of ball.

I provided the ever-reliable assist deficit of Luka and Lebron's teams and provided a recount of historical events or bball 101, while you provided no real reason why you think Luka is a champion except that you want him to be. His brand will need another franchise player just like Lebron needed and he'll still mostly lose - their inferior chemistry isn't capable of having a stretch of mostly winning with a cast like Duncan winning 3 in 5 years, or Curry winning 3 in 4, or MJ winning 6 in 7.. Instead, Lebron or Luka-ball mostly loses regardless of cast.. So they're nowhere near guys with great scoring diversity (elite on-ball and off-ball) like Curry, MJ or Kobe.

[basketballcat]

1. Luka leads both teams in steals.
2. Kyrie has been shooting an abysmal 43%
3. Kristaps was big in game 1, JRue was big in game 2, Luka fouled out in game 3. Mavs have no support crew to speak about.

If anything, Luka is the best player overall on this series.

[basketballcat]

getting 28 pts in 1st half is easier. Legs are fresher. Pressure is less.

I'll take Dr Brown's 24 Pts in 2nd Half which is much tougher in a winning effort.


This makes no sense. It's the Finals, there is pressure the whole game.

If the rest of the team scores 80 points for both teams, then Mavs get 108 and Boston gets 24 points.

1 point is 1 point, regardless of when you score it.

[ImKobe]

1. Luka leads both teams in steals.
2. Kyrie has been shooting an abysmal 43%
3. Kristaps was big in game 1, JRue was big in game 2, Luka fouled out in game 3. Mavs have no support crew to speak about.

If anything, Luka is the best player overall on this series.

For sure, and he's the best player by a decent margin too.

Defense isn't even the issue, the Celtics have not had a great offensive game all series. Mavs were HORRIBLE on catch & shoot 3s in the first 3 games and couldn't crack 100 pts while Boston averaged just 106 ppg which is why they lost. Offense has been the main problem and Mavs kind of solved it in Game 4 but I think it's too little too late now.