Peak Magic Johnson vs Peak Jokic

[Mask the Embiid]

I just want to see how stupid this website is.

[1987_Lakers]

Jokic

[Im Still Ballin]

This is a hard one. They played in two drastically different eras.

[FultzNationRISE]

Both great.

The premise there has to be a clear “order” is false.

It’s ok to just say it’s a pick em.


That said, I voted Jokic to spite OP.

[Carbine]

Their primes were 35 years apart. You can't compare.

[1987_Lakers]

I actually think Magic has one of the weaker peaks compared to the other top 10 greats. Arguably the GOAT playmaker, but his lack of scoring and defense compared to guys like MJ, LeBron, Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem etc is pretty noticable. Bird also had a better peak than Magic.

[Mask the Embiid]

Both great.

The premise there has to be a clear “order” is false.

It’s ok to just say it’s a pick em.


That said, I voted Jokic to spite OP.

so you really think magic. got it.

[Mask the Embiid]

This is a hard one. They played in two drastically different eras.

No its not hard....either you think jokic is a top 4 player ever.......or u dont....its not a trick....its not a damn pick em......the answer is obvious and your going to expose your basketball iq with your vote....because magic is top 4...so if you have jokic over him...you have jokic over hakeem.....shaq.....bird......kobe..... wilt....bill russell....



expose yourselves low iqs! let everybody see you for what you are....you not gonna get to vote anonymously like the curry poll you cowards

[SouBeachTalents]

No its not hard....either you think jokic is a top 4 player ever.......or u dont....its not a trick....its not a damn pick em......the answer is obvious and your going to expose your basketball iq with your vote....because magic is top 4...so if you have jokic over him...you have jokic over hakeem.....shaq.....bird......kobe..... wilt....bill russell....



expose yourselves low iqs! let everybody see....you not gonna get to vote anonymously like the curry poll you cowards
You're asking about peak but bringing up all-time rank. This is some lazy ass trolling.

[Mask the Embiid]

You're asking about peak but bringing up all-time rank. This is some lazy ass trolling.

Why wont you vote? Cast your vote.....are you ashamed of your vote?

[SATAN]

Good thread, OP.

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExazFxZWc2MzRqeDZoZXZmZTNsczJlNTQ 5Zm5zNm5vNTIzeXM1M20yMSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/tFK8urY6XHj2w/giphy.gif

[Axe]

It's funny how you guys root for lebron but many of you don't actually get along with each other. :ohwell:

[SATAN]

It's funny how you guys root for lebron but many of you don't actually get along with each other. :ohwell:

LeBron fans a free thinkers. MJ stans are cult members. :ohwell:

[beasted]

Some people will call this an amateur evaluation, but the fact remains Magic became a household name at his peak. Soccer moms have no fukkin clue who Jokic is.

[TheMan]

Jokic by a hair peak wise but need for him to win another chip before definitely putting him over Magic who was leader of one of the GOAT dynasty teams who beat 2 out of 3 another legend during their rivalry.

[SouBeachTalents]

Some people will call this an amateur evaluation, but the fact remains Magic became a household name at his peak. Soccer moms have no fukkin clue who Jokic is.
Iverson was MUCH more popular than Duncan, it genuinely means fvck all when evaluating who's better at basketball.

[plowking]

Jokic. Bird was better than Magic, and Jokic is a better Bird.

[elementally morale]

It's hard. I started watching in the early 80s and was a Laker fan. So Magic has always been #1 but you had to respect Bird just as well. Kareem was not 'Kareem' by the mid 80s when I started to appreciate things like footwork and defense, so next in line was Hakeem for me. Then Kobe, who for some reason really touched me despite his playing style (I don't usually like ballhogs). I really liked McHale, Nash, Dirk, Kidd... many players I wasn't really rooting for.

I feel like Magic and Jokic is a valid comparison peak wise. As is Bird and Jokic. Wouldn't say one is better than the other. Have to think about this one. Jokic' career is not over.

[beasted]

Iverson was MUCH more popular than Duncan, it genuinely means fvck all when evaluating who's better at basketball.

I think it does. If a player influenced a whole generation of fans and kids are at the park practicing showtime fast breaks and no look passes, it counts for something.

[tpols]

There's nothing Magic does better than Jokic.

Equal GOAT passers
Jokic is a better rebounder.
Jokic is a better scorer and shooter.
Jokic is an equal or maybe slightly better defender.

It's an easy choice.

[j3lademaster]

OP, make one for Embiid vs Magic.

[Norcaliblunt]

What legendary all time great teams has Jokic even faced let alone beat?

[jayfan]

This is a hard one. They played in two drastically different eras.


Actually agree with op on this point - eras don't really matter to the question. If you were fortunate enough to see both play at their best, who do you feel was the better player?

.

[HoopsNY]

I actually think Magic has one of the weaker peaks compared to the other top 10 greats. Arguably the GOAT playmaker, but his lack of scoring and defense compared to guys like MJ, LeBron, Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem etc is pretty noticable. Bird also had a better peak than Magic.

Has Jokic ever led a #1 offense?

'16 DEN: 17th
'17 DEN: 4th
'18 DEN: 6th
'19 DEN: 6th
'20 DEN: 5th
'21 DEN: 7th
'22 DEN: 6th
'23 DEN: 5th
'24 DEN: 5th

'21-'24 w/Jokic: 118.2 ORTG
'21-'24 w/o Jokic: 111.7 ORTG

Net Rating: +6.5

During Jokic's peak, we haven't seen an offense ranked higher than 5th. Magic had the luxury of a stacked team coming in, but what about after Kareem fell off, from '87 onward?

'87 LAL: 1st
'88 LAL: 2nd
'89 LAL: 1st
'90 LAL: 1st
'91 LAL: 5th

'87-'91 w/Magic: 114.7 ORTG
'87-'91 w/o Magic: 106.7 ORTG

Net Rating: +8.0

The samples are small for games missed (24 for Jokic and 25 for Magic), but I think it does count for something given the games are equal and seemingly large enough.

In 1996, LA had a 115.0 ORTG with Magic and a 110.2 ORTG without him. Basically they were a 2nd ranked offense with him and a 9th ranked offense without him. And that's a 36 year old Magic.

I'm also curious about why you think his scoring wasn't enough? He had multiple seasons average 22-24 PPG during that stretch while also dishing 12-13 assists. That's pretty insane.

[Mask the Embiid]

https://i.postimg.cc/nhFKwrDj/IMG-2276.png



Remember these 8 names fellas ^. Look at them real good. Never! Never! Never take anything they say serious in a basketball discussion again. One of these dudes is literally named after magic Johnson….you can’t make this up.

Magic Johnson’s playoff resume. Bird,Dr J, Isiah Thomas, Karl Malone, Stockton,Alex English, Drexler, Hakeem,Kevin Johnson, Mark Aguirre,George Gervin, Artis Gilmore, And Run TMC warriors.

Literally, a who’s who of the top 100.

Nikola Jokic resume. Threw games to avoid James harden in the playoffs, beating a 40-year-old Lebron James, getting eliminated from the playoffs in the last game of the season by Russell Westbrook, Getting outplayed and losing to CJ McCollum in a playoff series, Going 7 games with Demar Derozan in a playoff series, Took him years to beat out Jusuf Nurkic for a starting job, going to hell & back just to beat a 22-year-old Ant-man and has been swept in the playoffs by the great “Dev Book”.



This is your king!? Huh????? Is this your king!?

[tontoz]

As an old guy who watched Magic in college, i am taking Jokic. He can dominate a game scoring in a way that Magic couldn't.

James Worthy was the 3rd wheel for the Lakers and was a 7 time All-Star. Magic had a far stronger supporting cast. I don't see him winning a ring with the talent Jokic is playing with.

[Duffy Pratt]

https://i.postimg.cc/nhFKwrDj/IMG-2276.png



Remember these 8 names fellas ^. Look at them real good. Never! Never! Never take anything they say serious in a basketball discussion again. One of these dudes is literally named after magic Johnson….you can’t make this up.

Magic Johnson’s playoff resume. Bird,Dr J, Isiah Thomas, Karl Malone, Stockton,Alex English, Drexler, Hakeem,Kevin Johnson, Mark Aguirre,George Gervin, Artis Gilmore, And Run TMC warriors.

Literally, a who’s who of the top 100.

Nikola Jokic resume. Threw games to avoid James harden in the playoffs, beating a 40-year-old Lebron James, getting eliminated from the playoffs in the last game of the season by Russell Westbrook, Getting outplayed and losing to CJ McCollum in a playoff series, Going 7 games with Demar Derozan in a playoff series, Took him years to beat out Jusuf Nurkic for a starting job, going to hell & back just to beat a 22-year-old Ant-man and has been swept in the playoffs by the great “Dev Book”.



This is your king!? Huh????? Is this your king!?

You discount the possibility that someone would vote for Jokic just to troll you.

Just a few points to make about this: the question of eras is definitely relevant. The question wouldn’t be fair to put until it’s clear that Jokic has passed his peak. iMO, he is still improving season by season. This year, there was a slight letdown in his offense, accompanied by a rather large improvement in his defense.

It’s ridiculous to bring up his opponents without also bringing up supporting casts. For example, sixth man on Magic’s Lakers was Michael Cooper, who is now in the hall of fame and is one of the greatest perimeter defenders ever. Sixth man for Jokic is Christian Braun. This relates to eras. Great teams in Magic’s era would have three hall of famers, at least. The Lakers had four. The 86 Celtics had five. A great team today might have two. Jokic has played his entire career without another all-star. You might, at least, mention this.

Put Magic on this Denver team, without Jokic, and they would get knocked out of the playoffs early. Put Jokic on the eighties Lakers, with Scott Worthy, Kareem Cooper and Green? They would still compete with the Celtics, but with a very different style. I think the Celtics would win that because I’m not clear about who would run a two-man game with Jokic.

If Jokic retired today, I would say Magic had the better career. If Magic hadn’t “attained” the HIV virus, who knows how much more he would have had. Basically, it’s a dumb question.

[tpols]

People forget how trash the 1980s West was.

In 1987 on magics best team ever at 65 wins the top players he faced to make the Finals were Alex English, Sleepy Floyd, Joe Barry Carrol, and X-man. While James Worthy was hanging 30+ on him. Joke competition. They basically swept to The Finals.

Jokic OTOH had to go through Lebron, AD, Durant, Booker, Anthony Edwards etc. A world of a difference in competition. Having a free trip to the Finals every year is easy mode. It makes winning sooo much easier because you really only have to beat 1 team while being fully rested. The Celtics had to go through dog fight just to make The Finals.

[j3lademaster]

People forget how trash the 1980s West was.

In 1987 on magics best team ever at 65 wins the top players he faced to make the Finals were Alex English, Sleepy Floyd, Joe Barry Carrol, and X-man. While James Worthy was hanging 30+ on him. Joke competition. They basically swept to The Finals.

Jokic OTOH had to go through Lebron, AD, Durant, Booker, Anthony Edwards etc. A world of a difference in competition. Having a free trip to the Finals every year is easy mode. It makes winning sooo much easier because you really only have to beat 1 team while being fully rested. The Celtics had to go through dog fight just to make The Finals.
Yup. Beat 42, 37 and 39 win juggernauts to get to the finals. Joker otoh, is feasting on the stacked west while Embiid is out injuring his opponents in frustration because he loses 4-1 in the first round of the weak east with Maxey averaging an efficient 30 ppg.

[mr4speed]

https://i.postimg.cc/nhFKwrDj/IMG-2276.png



Remember these 8 names fellas ^. Look at them real good. Never! Never! Never take anything they say serious in a basketball discussion again. One of these dudes is literally named after magic JohnsonÂ….you canÂ’t make this up.

Magic JohnsonÂ’s playoff resume. Bird,Dr J, Isiah Thomas, Karl Malone, Stockton,Alex English, Drexler, Hakeem,Kevin Johnson, Mark Aguirre,George Gervin, Artis Gilmore, And Run TMC warriors.

Literally, a whoÂ’s who of the top 100.

Nikola Jokic resume. Threw games to avoid James harden in the playoffs, beating a 40-year-old Lebron James, getting eliminated from the playoffs in the last game of the season by Russell Westbrook, Getting outplayed and losing to CJ McCollum in a playoff series, Going 7 games with Demar Derozan in a playoff series, Took him years to beat out Jusuf Nurkic for a starting job, going to hell & back just to beat a 22-year-old Ant-man and has been swept in the playoffs by the great “Dev Book”.



This is your king!? Huh????? Is this your king!?

You want to talk about peak Jokic and then slam the same player? Ok, lets do the same thing with Magic. From Magic's book titled "Touch" from page 74 talking about taking the last shot in a game = "I wasn't ready. I was scared to go for it. I wasn't used to those situations. Kareem was the 1st option, Jamaal was second and Norm third. I just got crumbs but that was cool; that's all I wanted. But that attitude caught up with me in 1984 when I experienced the low points in my career during the championship series vs Boston". This is Magic after playing 5 seasons!!!
In 1981 vs Houston in the playoffs, in the deciding game 3 in LA, Magic shot 2 of 14 and 6 of 11 FT ( 2 misses late in the game) and then shot an airball on the last possession. In 1983 Finals, LA gets swept by the Sixers and Magic shoots 40.3% in the series and commits a record 24 turnovers in 4 games. In 1984 Finals vs Boston plays poorly in clutch moments during several games. In 1985 Finals Magic was solid but lets not forget Kareem was the 1985 FMVP and the reason LA finally beat Boston. In the 91 Finals LA wins game 1 in OT and then Bulls sweep LA in the next 4 games = Magic getting assists but only shooting 41.3% Magic was never a good defender and we can find bad games and bad series on any player if we want to. My vote is for Jokic and his career is far from over.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yup. Beat 42, 37 and 39 win juggernauts to get to the finals. Joker otoh, is feasting on the stacked west while Embiid is out injuring his opponents in frustration because he loses 4-1 in the first round of the weak east with Maxey averaging an efficient 30 ppg.
Excuse me, Embiid lost 4-2, and he nearly made it past the 2nd round a couple of times. It should frankly be him getting compared to Magic, not this fat overrated Euro slob.

[tontoz]

You want to talk about peak Jokic and then slam the same player? Ok, lets do the same thing with Magic. From Magic's book titled "Touch" from page 74 talking about taking the last shot in a game = "I wasn't ready. I was scared to go for it. I wasn't used to those situations. Kareem was the 1st option, Jamaal was second and Norm third. I just got crumbs but that was cool; that's all I wanted. But that attitude caught up with me in 1984 when I experienced the low points in my career during the championship series vs Boston". This is Magic after playing 5 seasons!!!
In 1981 vs Houston in the playoffs, in the deciding game 3 in LA, Magic shot 2 of 14 and 6 of 11 FT ( 2 misses late in the game) and then shot an airball on the last possession. In 1983 Finals, LA gets swept by the Sixers and Magic shoots 40.3% in the series and commits a record 24 turnovers in 4 games. In 1984 Finals vs Boston plays poorly in clutch moments during several games. In 1985 Finals Magic was solid but lets not forget Kareem was the 1985 FMVP and the reason LA finally beat Boston. In the 91 Finals LA wins game 1 in OT and then Bulls sweep LA in the next 4 games = Magic getting assists but only shooting 41.3% Magic was never a good defender and we can find bad games and bad series on any player if we want to. My vote is for Jokic and his career is far from over.



D@mn OP gets body slammed:applause:

Another backfire thread to add to OP's collection.

[tpols]

Yup. Beat 42, 37 and 39 win juggernauts to get to the finals. Joker otoh, is feasting on the stacked west while Embiid is out injuring his opponents in frustration because he loses 4-1 in the first round of the weak east with Maxey averaging an efficient 30 ppg.

I was looking at Murray vs Maxeys numbers in the 1st round and holy shit...

Maxey straight blew him away. If Yolk had Maxey the league would be in even more trouble. I honestly don't think Philly even makes the playoffs with Murray. They barely made it as is and Maxey was way more available and productive.

The fact that this clown OP can't see how wide the gap is between Jokic and Embiid leads me to believe we may be witnessing one of the greatest examples of cognitive dissonance in modern day civilization. He's been mind ****ed into oblivion.

[Norcaliblunt]

Jokic has never led a number one offense or a team to the best record.

He hasn’t even turned any of his teammates into all time greats or stars. For a passing wizard like Jokic to continue to have such horrible teammates says a lot about him.

Every passing savant from Magic, Kidd, Nash, to Chris Paul have all been hailed to make their teammates better. So why are the Jokic stans arguing how bad his teammates are? What he doesn’t make them better like a real floor general does?

[tontoz]

Jokic has never led a number one offense or a team to the best record.

He hasn’t even turned any of his teammates into all time greats or stars. For a passing wizard like Jokic to continue to have such horrible teammates says a lot about him.

Every passing savant from Magic, Kidd, Nash, to Chris Paul have all been hailed to make their teammates better. So why are the Jokic stans arguing how bad his teammates are? What he doesn’t make them better like a real floor general does?


What were Gordon and KCP doing before they got to Denver?

Denver traded bench scrub Monte Morris for KCP. They traded Gary Harris/RJ Hampton to get Gordon. How are those guys doing now? Let's not pretend like these guys had a lot of value around the league before getting traded to Denver.

James Worthy was the number 1 pick in the draft :oldlol:

[Xiao Yao You]

Has Jokic ever led a #1 offense?

'16 DEN: 17th
'17 DEN: 4th
'18 DEN: 6th
'19 DEN: 6th
'20 DEN: 5th
'21 DEN: 7th
'22 DEN: 6th
'23 DEN: 5th
'24 DEN: 5th

'21-'24 w/Jokic: 118.2 ORTG
'21-'24 w/o Jokic: 111.7 ORTG

Net Rating: +6.5

During Jokic's peak, we haven't seen an offense ranked higher than 5th. Magic had the luxury of a stacked team coming in, but what about after Kareem fell off, from '87 onward?

'87 LAL: 1st
'88 LAL: 2nd
'89 LAL: 1st
'90 LAL: 1st
'91 LAL: 5th

'87-'91 w/Magic: 114.7 ORTG
'87-'91 w/o Magic: 106.7 ORTG

Net Rating: +8.0

The samples are small for games missed (24 for Jokic and 25 for Magic), but I think it does count for something given the games are equal and seemingly large enough.

In 1996, LA had a 115.0 ORTG with Magic and a 110.2 ORTG without him. Basically they were a 2nd ranked offense with him and a 9th ranked offense without him. And that's a 36 year old Magic.

I'm also curious about why you think his scoring wasn't enough? He had multiple seasons average 22-24 PPG during that stretch while also dishing 12-13 assists. That's pretty insane.

By a pass first pg in an era where pg werent expected ro carry the s oring load

[Norcaliblunt]

What were Gordon and KCP doing before they got to Denver?

Denver traded bench scrub Monte Morris for KCP. They traded Gary Harris/RJ Hampton to get Gordon. How are those guys doing now? Let's not pretend like these guys had a lot of value around the league before getting traded to Denver.

KCP was a LA fan favorite champion, and Gordon was / is a one of a kind freak athlete with a lot of potential. Both top 10 lottery picks and the kind of glue guys that a Magic, Nash, or Paul could make all stars out of, and lead number one offensives and best records with. Especially Gordon. Nash would make Gordon an all star easy.

[tontoz]

KCP was a LA fan favorite champion, and Gordon was / is a one of a kind freak athlete with a lot of potential. Both top 10 lottery picks and the kind of glue guys that a Magic, Nash, or Paul could make all stars out of, and lead number one offensives and best records with. Especially Gordon. Nash would make Gordon an all star easy.

Then why didn't Denver have to give up more to trade for them? :confusedshrug:

[Norcaliblunt]

Then why didn't Denver have to give up more to trade for them? :confusedshrug:

Because they were dealing with completely lost franchises dumping dudes like the Magic and Wizards.

[tontoz]

Because they were dealing with completely lost franchises dumping dudes like the Magic and Wizards.

So those lost franchises didn't accept calls from the other 29 teams? Cool story bro

[Mask the Embiid]

Excuse me, Embiid lost 4-2, and he nearly made it past the 2nd round a couple of times. It should frankly be him getting compared to Magic, not this fat overrated Euro slob.

When embiid sits out games in the playoffs because he's hurt "he's soft". When he plays through a torn menicus and loses he's a "choke artist". Embiid misses a game in Denver "he's embitch". He plays the next game then tears a ligament in his knee he's "embelish" or "embrittle". So the paradigm yall have created is a lose lose for embiid. Nothing he does is acceptable. we all know if he was healtthy this season he would of won mvp....we all know jokic's 1st mvp year if he was healthy that year he was leading mvp votes. You pick and poke at all his injury riddled playoff runs and call him soft or sensitive and then you wonder why he snaps in the knicks series...

[tontoz]

When embiid sits out games because he's hurt "he's soft". When he plays through a torn menicus and loses he's a choke artist. Embiid misses a game in denver he's embitch. He plays the next game then tears a ligament in his knee he's embelish or embrittle. So the paradigm yall have created is a lose lose for embiid. Nothing he does is accetable. we all know if he was healtthy this season he would of won mvp....we all know jokic's 1st mvp year if he was healthy that year he was leading mvp votes. You pick and poke at all his injury riddled playoff and call him soft or sensative and then you wonder why he snaps in the knicks series...



If Embiid wasn't constantly flopping and hitting the ground maybe he wouldn't be hurt all the time. Jokic hardly ever hits the ground.

When you are 7'2 300 pounds falling to the ground is a serious impact. Stay on your feet ffs.

[Norcaliblunt]

So those lost franchises didn't accept calls from the other 29 teams? Cool story bro

So every single team in the league had the need, the roster spots, and the competent GM’s / owners to make those calls. Cool story bro.

Oh and btw Charles freaking Barkley was traded straight up for Jeff Hornacek and 2 no name bums. That means Barkley is only as good as Hornacek or whatever his supposed “value” was at that particular moment in time within those set of circumstances? Lmao.

[Mask the Embiid]

Everyone knows he would of beat the hawks if he was healthy.....everyone knows he would of beat toronto if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the heat if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the celtics if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the knicks if he was healthy......yet you sit there with a str8 face llike he didnt take most of these teams to 7 games at 50% health and the heat series he was at 10% health..... 10%! He had a broken thumb on his shooting hand(he literally couldn't shoot the ball at all).....a broken face......no conditioning......like......just cut it the fk out.....YOU ALL KNOW HE WOULD OF WON THE BUTLER YEAR! You all know he would of a won a ring the celtics in 7 year.....HE owns jokic....he would never lose to him in the finals.....ever...just stop it

[tontoz]

So every single team in the league had the need, the roster spots, and the competent GM’s / owners to make those calls. Cool story bro.

Oh and btw Charles freaking Barkley was traded straight up for Jeff Hornacek and 2 no name bums. That means Barkley is only as good as Hornacek or whatever his supposed “value” was at that particular moment in time within those set of circumstances? Lmao.



Barkley was a UFA and could have walked for nothing if they didn't trade him, and they still got an All-Star for him. Hornacek made the All-Star game the year before.

Gordon wasn't a UFA. He still had 2 years left on his deal and it wasn't an expensive one. Not hard to fit $18 million for a good player. KCP was even cheaper. It is a lot easier to aquire guys making under $20 million/yr.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jokic literally has the best peak of all time. The only argument is 2015-2018 LeBron.

It's simply harder to win in today's era, so winning isn't the be all end all. It matters, but what Jokic is doing individually, game in game out, in the regular season and playoffs for multiple years now is unprecedented. He has the best advanced stats ever and eye test confirms his brilliance.

Jokic is the best player of all time.

[tontoz]

Everyone knows he would of beat the hawks if he was healthy.....everyone knows he would of beat toronto if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the heat if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the celtics if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the knicks if he was healthy......yet you sit there with a str8 face llike he didnt take most of these teams to 7 games at 50% health and the heat series he was at 10% health..... 10%! He had a broken thumb on his shooting hand(he literally couldn't shoot the ball at all).....a broken face......no conditioning......like......just cut it the fk out.....YOU ALL KNOW HE WOULD OF WON THE BUTLER YEAR! You all know he would of a won a ring the celtics in 7 year.....HE owns jokic....he would never lose to him in the finals.....ever...just stop it

He would never lose to Jokic but he lost to Trae Young :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

Everyone knows he would of beat the hawks if he was healthy.....everyone knows he would of beat toronto if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the heat if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the celtics if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the knicks if he was healthy......yet you sit there with a str8 face llike he didnt take most of these teams to 7 games at 50% health and the heat series he was at 10% health..... 10%! He had a broken thumb on his shooting hand(he literally couldn't shoot the ball at all).....a broken face......no conditioning......like......just cut it the fk out.....YOU ALL KNOW HE WOULD Have WON THE BUTLER YEAR! You all know he would have a won a ring the celtics in 7 year.....HE owns jokic....he would never lose to him in the finals.....ever...just stop it
That’s a whole lotta excuses.

[Mask the Embiid]

He would never lose to Jokic but he lost to Trae Young :roll:

he was playing with a torn menicus in his knee you sack of shit! you know he's better!

better scorer
better help defender
better pnr player
better on ball defender
better shot blocker
better shooter
better fts
better rebounder
stronger gravity
better athlete

beats him head up....guards him the best in the entire league....torches him alive....has a winning record vs him head up.....better stats than him...head up or not head up


the man started basketball at 15 or something.....he's a wunderkind



be real for once....stop trollin all the damn time

[tontoz]

he was playing with a torn menicus in his knee you sack of shit! you know he's better!

better scorer
better help defender
better pnr player
better on ball defender
better shot blocker
better shooter
better fts
better rebounder
stronger gravity
better athlete


the man started basketball at 15 or something.....he's a wunderkind



He also flops like a fish. I have no sympathy for injuries when he chooses to hit the ground over and over trying to get calls. Boo hoo

[Mask the Embiid]

Bell's palsy.....the man had bell's ****ing palsy from out of nowhere........this is his level of luck....jokic has never been through shit in the playoffs......never..... not even a nick and thats his resume....and this is your king!? losing to cj mccollum completely healthy is your king?

[tontoz]

Bell's palsy.....the man had bell's ****ing palsy from out of nowhere........this is his level of luck....jokic has never been through shit in the playoffs......never..... not even a nick and thats his resume....and this is your king!?



Jokic isn't diving to the ground trying to get calls. It isn't a coincidence that he is healthier in the playoffs.

[Norcaliblunt]

Barkley was a UFA and could have walked for nothing if they didn't trade him, and they still got an All-Star for him. Hornacek made the All-Star game the year before.

Gordon wasn't a UFA. He still had 2 years left on his deal and it wasn't an expensive one. Not hard to fit $18 million for a good player. KCP was even cheaper. It is a lot easier to aquire guys making under $20 million/yr.

But under your own logic Philly could have accepted calls from all the other 26 teams and got a much better deal for the best PF in the league who was a perennial MVP candidate. All they got was a one time fringe all star for a MVP level top 50 player all time. Why? Oh yeah because there is a lot of nuance and things to consider in these situations that arenÂ’t all black and white. Especially when it comes to complete joke franchises like Washington and Orlando. If anything you are propping up DenverÂ’s front office not Jokic. And they deserve props for being able to build a good team around him.

The fact remains Jokic doesnÂ’t lead number one offenses, doesnÂ’t lead teams to best records, and doesnÂ’t significantly make his teammates better to where they make all star teams or have career years. In fact all you hear is how trash his teammates are. Which is odd because historically most floor generals are celebrated for making everyone around them better. Like way way way better.

[tontoz]

But under your own logic Philly could have accepted calls from all the other 26 teams and got a much better deal for the best PF in the league who was a perennial MVP candidate. All they got was a one time fringe all star for a MVP level top 50 player all time. Why? Oh yeah because there is a lot of nuance and things to consider in these situations that arenÂ’t all black and white. Especially when it comes to complete joke franchises like Washington and Orlando. If anything you are propping up DenverÂ’s front office not Jokic. And they deserve props for being able to build a good team around him.

The fact remains Jokic doesnÂ’t lead number one offenses, doesnÂ’t lead teams to best records, and doesnÂ’t significantly make his teammates better to where they make all star teams or have career years. In fact all you hear is how trash his teammates are. Which is odd because historically most floor generals are celebrated for making everyone around them better. Like way way way better.


Do you seriously not realize that a teams bargaining power is very weak if the player will be a UFA in a few months? Low IQ confirmed.

It isnt hard to "make" a guy an All-Star when he was the number 1 pick in the draft.

[Norcaliblunt]

Do you seriously not realize that a teams bargaining power is very weak if the player will be a UFA in a few months? Low IQ confirmed.

It isnt hard to "make" a guy an All-Star when he was the number 1 pick in the draft.

Do you seriously not realize that teams like Washington and Orlando have been terrible for decades and have never been a great place for lottery picks, role players, or anyone for that matter to get their shine on and boost their stock?

KCP was a key role player on a championship team and Aaron Gordon is a freak with potential. Denver’s front office is good while Washington’s and Orlando’s are not. That’s it.

Jokic still does not lead teams to number offenses, best records, or enable teammates to have career years. Bottom line.

[Duffy Pratt]

Everyone knows he would of beat the hawks if he was healthy.....everyone knows he would of beat toronto if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the heat if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the celtics if he was healthy....everyone knows he would of beat the knicks if he was healthy......yet you sit there with a str8 face llike he didnt take most of these teams to 7 games at 50% health and the heat series he was at 10% health..... 10%! He had a broken thumb on his shooting hand(he literally couldn't shoot the ball at all).....a broken face......no conditioning......like......just cut it the fk out.....YOU ALL KNOW HE WOULD OF WON THE BUTLER YEAR! You all know he would of a won a ring the celtics in 7 year.....HE owns jokic....he would never lose to him in the finals.....ever...just stop it

Not sure how he would beat the Nuggets in the playoffs while ducking all the games in Denver.

And by your reasoning, Bill Walton is the best player ever (with the possible exception of Len Bias).

[tontoz]

Do you seriously not realize that teams like Washington and Orlando have been terrible for decades and have never been a great place for lottery picks, role players, or anyone for that matter to get their shine on and boost their stock?

KCP was a key role player on a championship team and Aaron Gordon is a freak with potential.




If you can see that then i am sure the other 29 teams can see it. Of those 29 there were surely teams that could take on a sub $20 million contract for " a key role player on a championship team" or "a freak with potential".

The Lakers valued KCP so highly they used him as salary filler for Westbrook. :oldlol:

[Norcaliblunt]

If you can see that then i am sure the other 29 teams can see it. Of those 29 there were surely teams that could take on a sub $20 million contract for " a key role player on a championship team" or "a freak with potential".

The Lakers valued KCP so highly they used him as salary filler for Westbrook. :oldlol:

So KCP’s value is MVP Westbrook level now. That’s how good he is? Damn. Lmao.

Jokic does not lead teams to number one offensives, best records, or help any of his teammates at becoming an all star. Facts.

[Duffy Pratt]

So KCP’s value is MVP Westbrook level now. That’s how good he is? Damn. Lmao.

Jokic does not lead teams to number one offensives, best records, or help any of his teammates at becoming an all star. Facts.

That would be Tatum.

[SouBeachTalents]

So KCP’s value is MVP Westbrook level now. That’s how good he is? Damn. Lmao.

Jokic does not lead teams to number one offensives, best records, or help any of his teammates at becoming an all star. Facts.
He’s on track to lead them to b2b titles.

[tontoz]

So KCP’s value is MVP Westbrook level now. That’s how good he is? Damn. Lmao.

Jokic does not lead teams to number one offensives, best records, or help any of his teammates at becoming an all star. Facts.

MVP Westbrook? Pretty sure Russ didn't win MVP with the Wizards. :oldlol: He was a toxic contract and the Lakers dumped KCP to take that on.


Who on their team could potentially be an All-Star? Gordon has been in the league for years in a featured role in Orlando but never sniffed an AS game. KCP is a disposable role player. MPJ has had 3 back surgeries and struggles to score off the dribble.
Murray can't stay on the court long enough to even be in the conversation for the AS game.

[Norcaliblunt]

MVP Westbrook? Pretty sure Russ didn't win MVP with the Wizards. :oldlol: He was a toxic contract and the Lakers dumped KCP to take that on.


Who on their team could potentially be an All-Star? Gordon has been in the league for years in a featured role in Orlando but never sniffed an AS game. KCP is a disposable role player. MPJ has had 3 back surgeries and struggles to score off the dribble.
Murray can't stay on the court long enough to even be in the conversation for the AS game.

KCP was literally traded for a former MVP coming off a season in which they averaged a triple double. You can spin this shit anyway you want that’s the freaking point. Lmao.

If Jokic was leading teams to number one offenses and best records all those dudes accept for KCP become all stars at some point. But he isn’t that dominant. He’s great. Just not some dominant GOAT who’s head and shoulders above everyone else.

[Duffy Pratt]

KCP was literally traded for a former MVP coming off a season in which they averaged a triple double. You can spin this shit anyway you want that’s the freaking point. Lmao.

If Jokic was leading teams to number one offenses and best records all those dudes accept for KCP become all stars at some point. But he isn’t that dominant. He’s great. Just not some dominant GOAT who’s head and shoulders above everyone else.

I had forgotten that that trade was a straight up Westbrook for KCP deal. Thanks for clarifying.

[tontoz]

KCP was literally traded for a former MVP coming off a season in which they averaged a triple double. You can spin this shit anyway you want that’s the freaking point. Lmao.

If Jokic was leading teams to number one offenses and best records all those dudes accept for KCP become all stars at some point. But he isn’t that dominant. He’s great. Just not some dominant GOAT who’s head and shoulders above everyone else.



KCP wouldn't be an All-Star in the G league. His career averages are 11/3/2.

How many other guys in the league are leading their team in points, rebounds and assists? How many guys averaged 30/13 in the playoffs for 3 straight years?

I say again who on their team could possibly be an All-Star? Please clarify

[elementally morale]

KCP wouldn't be an All-Star in the G league. His career averages are 11/3/2.

How many other guys in the league are leading their team in points, rebounds and assists? How many guys averaged 30/13 in the playoffs for 3 straight years?

I say again who on their team could possibly be an All-Star? Please clarify

Jokic is leading all players in assists this year in the playoffs. He is second in rebounds, but the 1st is Anthony Davis, who was eliminated... and in the 1st round when they played each other Jokic was the best rebounder.

[Norcaliblunt]

KCP wouldn't be an All-Star in the G league. His career averages are 11/3/2.

How many other guys in the league are leading their team in points, rebounds and assists? How many guys averaged 30/13 in the playoffs for 3 straight years?

I say again who on their team could possibly be an All-Star? Please clarify

KCP is one of those clutch role player glue guys who hits open shots that every championship level team needs. He was a proven winner and Lakers fan favorite before he came to Denver. I know I lived in LA. The fans and talking heads all loved KCP and what he brung and were pissed when the Lakers traded him.

Murray is a straight up stud. Yeah he has an injury history, but when he is at his peak on any given night he’s as skilled and deadly as Mitchell, Booker, Irving, Middleton, Dame, Klay, or any of the other elite 2 guards.

Aaron Gordon is the kind of freak that Steve Nash would have averaging 20 plus points a game. Lobs and pick and rolls all day.

And MPJ is a dude I could see slipping into the all star game if Denver was actually ever a dominate regular season team.

[tontoz]

KCP is one of those clutch role player glue guys who hits open shots that every championship level team needs. He was a proven winner and Lakers fan favorite before he came to Denver. I know I lived in LA. The fans and talking heads all loved KCP and what he brung and were pissed when the Lakers traded him.

Murray is a straight up stud. Yeah he has an injury history, but when he is at his peak on any given night he’s as skilled and deadly as Mitchell, Booker, Irving, Middleton, Dame, Klay, or any of the other elite 2 guards.

Aaron Gordon is the kind of freak that Steve Nash would have averaging 20 plus points a game. Lobs and pick and rolls all day.

And MPJ is a dude I could see slipping into the all star game if Denver was actually ever a dominate regular season team.


So which year do you think these guys would have been All-Stars with Nash instead of Jokic? Who would they replace on the AS team?

[Norcaliblunt]

So which year do you think these guys would have been All-Stars with Nash instead of Jokic? Who would they replace on the AS team?

Nash could probably lead this Denver team to the best offense, best record, and get Gordon an all star selection. At least for one season.

Murray is all star level on his own regardless of what Jokic or anyone else does. He’s that talented. Just needs to stay healthy.

And like I said if Denver was really rolling before the all star break dominating teams with the leagues best record I could see MJP slipping in coaches vote as a fringe all star.

[tontoz]

Nash could probably lead this Denver team to the best offense, best record, and get Gordon an all star selection. At least for one season.

Murray is all star level on his own regardless of what Jokic or anyone else does. He’s that talented. Just needs to stay healthy.

And like I said if Denver was really rolling before the all star break dominating teams with the leagues best record I could see MJP slipping in coaches vote as a fringe all star.


So who would Gordon replace on the AS game? You think he would get picked over AD, Kawhi or PG13?

Gordon cant score outside 3 feet with any efficiency at all. Jokic isn't going to change the fact that he struggles to make open jumpers.

Murray can't stay on the court long enough to get selected. Ditto MPJ. This is the first year he played a full season and he isn't that good off the dribble. There are only so many open jumpers Joker can set him up for.

[TheMan]

As an old guy who watched Magic in college, i am taking Jokic. He can dominate a game scoring in a way that Magic couldn't.

James Worthy was the 3rd wheel for the Lakers and was a 7 time All-Star. Magic had a far stronger supporting cast. I don't see him winning a ring with the talent Jokic is playing with.

Yeah, Magic had a stronger supporting team but he also beat higher quality teams than Jokic has, as a rookie with their Captain KAJ out putting up 42 pts in GM 7 at Philly vs Dr J, beating Larry Legend's Celtics 2 out of 3 in the Finals, beating IT and the Bad Boys Pistons etc...call me when Jokic beats ANY team close to that level.

[tontoz]

Yeah, Magic had a stronger supporting team but he also beat higher quality teams than Jokic has, as a rookie with their Captain KAJ out putting up 42 pts in GM 7 at Philly vs Dr J, beating Larry Legend's Celtics 2 out of 3 in the Finals, beating IT and the Bad Boys Pistons etc...call me when Jokic beats ANY team close to that level.


Give him hall of fame teammates, no problem.

[TheMan]

Jokic literally has the best peak of all time. The only argument is 2015-2018 LeBron.

It's simply harder to win in today's era, so winning isn't the be all end all. It matters, but what Jokic is doing individually, game in game out, in the regular season and playoffs for multiple years now is unprecedented. He has the best advanced stats ever and eye test confirms his brilliance.

Jokic is the best player of all time.

This is the inflated offensive stats era, bro. Jokic and defense aren't a thing. There are better two way centers in league history than Jokic. I like Jokic but he's playing in the perfect era for his skill set. In past eras where centers where a team's defensive anchor...foggedaboutit

[TheMan]

Give him the best supporting cast in the league., no problem.

Different eras and rules. Jokic is a one way player, elite on O, below avg on D.

[SouBeachTalents]

Different eras and rules. Jokic is a one way player, elite on O, below avg on D.
We're debating him with Magic and you're bringing up defense :lol

[tontoz]

Different eras and rules. Jokic is a one way player, elite on O, below avg on D.


So what? He leads his team in points rebounds and assists. His impact is overwhelming compared to magic, who was a below average defender as well.

Not to mention that the west was lame back then. It's far stronger now.

[TheMan]

We're debating him with Magic and you're bringing up defense :lol

Good point, a point guard being below avg defensively isn't as bad as a center though. Curry is debated as being top 10 GOAT and he's a turnstile on defense. Jokic IMO should not be put above other GOAT Centers who weren't absolute dog shit on D. It's goofy to compare PGs and Cs to begin with :lol

As a center, Jokic is to offense is what Bill Russell was to defense haha.

[tontoz]

Good point, a point guard being below avg defensively isn't as bad as a center though. Curry is debated as being top 10 GOAT and he's a turnstile on defense. Jokic IMO should not be put above other GOAT Centers who weren't absolute dog shit on D. It's goofy to compare PGs and Cs to begin with :lol

As a center, Jokic is to offense is what Bill Russell was to defense haha.


Curry is not a turnstile on D. That is low IQ nonsense. He was only below average in his early years.

Denver was ranked 8th in defensive efficiency during season even though they were cruising through a lot of the season, and they don't have any dpoy candidates like Michael Cooper.

[Mask the Embiid]

https://i.postimg.cc/nhFKwrDj/IMG-2276.png





https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif

[tontoz]

Magic never had to worry about his teammates disappearing. Aside from Murray and Jokic the rest of the team had 21 points. Id bet nothing like that ever happened to Magic.

At least Jokic didn't lose in the first round to the Knicks. :lol

[Charlie Sheen]

Magic never had to worry about his teammates disappearing. Aside from Murray and Jokic the rest of the team had 21 points. Id bet nothing like that ever happened to Magic.


That has much less to do with quality of teammates than how the game has changed.

Showtime Lakers were attempting as many 3's in a series as Nuggets were in a game.

Of course Magic was not going to experience wild swings in shooting that will occur over the short run in the 3>2 game.

[MrFonzworth]

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif


https://youtu.be/kSlWNU5_JVc?si=m8otoDON37RQH4g9

[Soundwave]

https://youtu.be/kSlWNU5_JVc?si=m8otoDON37RQH4g9

That was rough for Magic, lol. Like 200 people being able to swarm the floor while there's still time on the clock (2 seconds) is wild.

[SouBeachTalents]

I know no ones immune to having bad games and even choking, but it's so strange to me that in his 5th season, after having already won 2 titles, 2 FMVP's, including the epic closeout without Kareem his rookie year, that Magic could be so spectacularly bad in the clutch for an entire series. It makes it even more inexplicable that he was consistently brilliant in the playoffs the rest of his career.

[mr4speed]

I know no ones immune to having bad games and even choking, but it's so strange to me that in his 5th season, after having already won 2 titles, 2 FMVP's, including the epic closeout without Kareem his rookie year, that Magic could be so spectacularly bad in the clutch for an entire series. It makes it even more inexplicable that he was consistently brilliant in the playoffs the rest of his career.

Kareem actually won the 1980 FMVP after Magic's great game 6 but because Kareem was not present, the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award. This is covered in the book titled "Kareem" pages 140-141. Magic was solid and great in game 6, but Kareem is why LA won the other 3 games. Magic also set an NBA Finals record with 30 turnovers in those 6 games. With Magic getting that 1980 FMVP award, it made the bar so high, there was going to be a disappointing performance at some time.

[Norcaliblunt]

Lmao at these Stans comparing Jokic to Magic.

Magic literally put the NBA on his shoulders and made it popular with his personality and aura.

Jokic is a straight up shy punk ass bitch.