It's crazy how much circumstance plays into our perception of how good players are

[Im Still Ballin]

You can make an argument that Porzingis is/has been the best player on the Celtics. Who would've thought that a year or more ago? He had a career year last season, but I don't think many people would've thought he'd be arguably the MVP of the Celtics with Tatum there.

The most impactful guy on the best team. I'm not saying he is; Tatum has played more games and carries a heavier load - at least on offense. But the fact it's not an outlandish question to ask.

There are even footprints that point to Kyrie being more impactful than Doncic. Not that that's what I'm saying. Just that they're there.

Circumstance (role, team scheme, personnel, lineups, substitution patterns) plays such an important role in our perceptions of how "good" a player is. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Stick an underachiever on another team and he's now a winner. Or give him enough talent to compete.

[Im Still Ballin]

EPM currently has Boston's core four at:

Porzingis: +4.4 per 100 possessions
Tatum: +4.4 per 100 possessions
White: +4.0 per 100 possessions
Brown: +2.8 per 100 possessions

[aj1987]

You can make an argument that Porzingis is/has been the best player on the Celtics. Who would've thought that a year or more ago? He had a career year last season, but I don't think many people would've thought he'd be arguably the MVP of the Celtics with Tatum there.

The most impactful guy on the best team. I'm not saying he is; Tatum has played more games and carries a heavier load - at least on offense. But the fact it's not an outlandish question to ask.

There are even footprints that point to Kyrie being more impactful than Doncic. Not that that's what I'm saying. Just that they're there.

Circumstance (role, team scheme, personnel, lineups, substitution patterns) plays such an important role in our perceptions of how "good" a player is. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Stick an underachiever on another team and he's now a winner. Or give him enough talent to compete.

They're on pace to win 62 games with him and 64 without him. He's not the best/most impactful player on the team. Also, he has ZERO argument for being the MVP of the Celtics. He's been amazing, but not even close to Tatum.

[Im Still Ballin]

But I suppose an argument for Tatum being the better player is that he's probably more valuable to a wider array of teams. His creation skillset is a premium. Porzingis has his rim protection and his efficient and complimentary offense.

You can argue who's the more valuable floor raiser; I guess it depends on the makeup of the team. But Tatum probably has more value on lower, barebones squads. But, once again, depends on what you're working with.

[Im Still Ballin]

They're on pace to win 62 games with him and 64 without him. He's not the best/most impactful player on the team. Also, he has ZERO argument for being the MVP of the Celtics. He's been amazing, but not even close to Tatum.

Sure. But you'd also have to consider sample size while also adjusting for strength of schedule (which includes injuries for both teams), and shooting luck/variance on open shots.

Tatum is the most valuable by virtue of playing more games. Value isn't a rate/per-game concept; it's accumulative. I get that. I suppose I should've clarified somewhat. On-court impact is more what I'm talking about. When they're both healthy and out there competing.

And I'm not saying KP is better/more impactful. Just that it's close enough that it could be argued either way and I wouldn't have an issue. On this team, anyways.

[RRR3]

Brown making the ASG over Porzingis was absurd. These idiots still just look at basic stats

[Im Still Ballin]

Kristaps Porzingis 2023-24 Post-up stats:

- 3.1 post-up possessions per game (7th in the NBA)
- 18.4% of offense (8th in the NBA)
- 1.41 PPP (1st in the NBA*)
- 68.9% FG (1st in the NBA*)
- 32.8% free-throw rate (1st in the NBA*)

* Minimum 1.3 post-ups per game

With the free throws added, it's like he's shooting 70.5% FG. Gawd-damn. Mr. MisMatch, the exploiter of switches.

[FKAri]

It's very matchup dependent. He's the best matchup exploiter on the team so if he has the right matchup, he's their 1st option on scoring. He can also be their best defender vs any lineup where he doesn't need to guard his man at the arc or bang with a true 5. In the right circumstance he's their best player.

But when KP doesn't have an exploitable matchup they tend to run the offense through Tatum and then Brown. They're both more balanced players with less variance. They're more effective vs their tougher matchups than KP is vs his. KP's also not as available in terms of minutes and back to backs and there is always a lingering injury concern.

Overall, Tatum's still their #1. But I think KP when healthy is emerging as a #2 if he can keep his pace.

[aj1987]

Sure. But you'd also have to consider sample size while also adjusting for strength of schedule (which includes injuries for both teams), and shooting luck/variance on open shots.

Tatum is the most valuable by virtue of playing more games. Value isn't a rate/per-game concept; it's accumulative. I get that. I suppose I should've clarified somewhat. On-court impact is more what I'm talking about. When they're both healthy and out there competing.

And I'm not saying KP is better/more impactful. Just that it's close enough that it could be argued either way and I wouldn't have an issue. On this team, anyways.

They had two wins over the Sixers, one vs the Magic (when they were 16-7), one over the Wolves, one over the Clips, and one over Dallas.

[FultzNationRISE]

But I suppose an argument for Tatum being the better player is that he's probably more valuable to a wider array of teams. His creation skillset is a premium. Porzingis has his rim protection and his efficient and complimentary offense.

You can argue who's the more valuable floor raiser; I guess it depends on the makeup of the team. But Tatum probably has more value on lower, barebones squads. But, once again, depends on what you're working with.


These ideas of picking who is better between guys with different roles is a very "chicken and egg" sort of thing.

For instance you say who is better MJ or Pippen? People will say MJ because he scores more and has a 'wow' factor. But neither can win a championship without what the other guy brings. So how is one better than the other?

To use a more extreme hypothetical to illustrate the point, let's say there's a guy who protects the paint by just standing near it and having immense body odor, which is so foul it alters players shots. And he has no other skills, puts up no stats, just stands there like an oaf, but his BO is REALLY effective defensively. You pair him with a great offensive guy with a wide skill set and flashy moves and big scoring numbers, and together they win a chip.

Everyone will say the aesthetically impressive guy who averages 30+ points is 'better' but if they require each other in order to win, how is that really so? The scorer cant win it all without a guy who's as good at what he does as the smelly defender. They're equally necessary for winning at basketball. So what really makes one better, if we're talking about value on the court?

If two different roles are equally important, it doesnt really make SENSE to say a guy in one role is better than the other if they're equally irreplaceable in their respective roles.

People just like having definitive rankings because our minds want structure and certainty. In reality, the idea that 'player a is better than b, and b is better than c, and c is better than d' in the NBA is an illusion.

[FultzNationRISE]

They're on pace to win 62 games with him and 64 without him. He's not the best/most impactful player on the team. Also, he has ZERO argument for being the MVP of the Celtics. He's been amazing, but not even close to Tatum.

The Celtics have such a strong team they can win regular season games without any one player pretty consistently. Tatum has the best stats, but the thing is, they could still win if he didnt have those stats. If Porzingis took more shots and Tatum sat out more games, the Celtics would still be in the same position. That's OP's point. Your perception of Tatum being so much better and more valuable is the result of Tatum getting the highest usage in the offense and KP sitting regularly for injury prevention. Just because that's how they happen to approach it doesnt mean that's the ONLY road to Rome.

[90sgoat]

You can make an argument that Porzingis is/has been the best player on the Celtics. Who would've thought that a year or more ago?

Bruh..

I've literally stanned Zingis since his rookie season. I've said again and again that a healthy Zingis is an MVP level talent.

[90sgoat]

Kristaps Porzingis 2023-24 Post-up stats:

- 3.1 post-up possessions per game (7th in the NBA)
- 18.4% of offense (8th in the NBA)
- 1.41 PPP (1st in the NBA*)
- 68.9% FG (1st in the NBA*)
- 32.8% free-throw rate (1st in the NBA*)

* Minimum 1.3 post-ups per game

With the free throws added, it's like he's shooting 70.5% FG. Gawd-damn. Mr. MisMatch, the exploiter of switches.

You should add Points Allowed where Zingis is usually also in the top of the league.

Zingis is a true two way star.

[Duffy Pratt]

People just like having definitive rankings because our minds want structure and certainty. In reality, the idea that 'player a is better than b, and b is better than c, and c is better than d' in the NBA is an illusion.

But at that point, the person who is better is the one who is more difficult to replace. These days, guys who can light it up on offense are a dime a dozen, but the guy who can shut down the lane with his body odor is unique. Thus, he is the better player. You can build a team around him. You take the other guy and you have a hard time shutting down the paint as well.

[FultzNationRISE]

But at that point, the person who is better is the one who is more difficult to replace. These days, guys who can light it up on offense are a dime a dozen, but the guy who can shut down the lane with his body odor is unique. Thus, he is the better player. You can build a team around him. You take the other guy and you have a hard time shutting down the paint as well.


Well there are other guys who can protect the paint at a championship level, the reason I used the example of doing it with body odor is just to highlight theyre on opposite ends of the skill spectrum. Just so people cant say “well the rim protector is more valuable bc he does that plus adds 12 ppg on offense” or whatever. The idea is they are two purely separate players with equally necessary roles. People will call the 30 ppg highlight player the “star” and clearly more valuable… even if logically it’s unprovable. Because people want a hierarchy. They dont wanna be unsure. They want values clearly defined rather than muddled. And concepts you can physically see are more digestible than abstract ideas you have to intuit.

[3ba11]

Didn't porzingas begin his career alongside Doncic?

How was he going to develop being turned into spot-up shooter alongside a high-scoring ball-dominator like Luka or Lebron?

It's no surprise that he looks great alongside an expert jumpshooter Tatum the same way Wiggins, Pippen and Westbrook looked better alongside Curry or Jordan or Kawhi

So there's a massive history of guys looking good alongside expert jumpshooter like Curry, Kobe, MJ, Dirk, Bird, Kawhi, Durant etc like Westbrook made Finals with Durant or Pau becoming all-nba with kobe..... Then there's a massive history of guys cratering alongside ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron (Porzingas, Brunson, IT, Westbrook, Bosh, Ingram, Love and more cratered)

It's history

[ShawkFactory]

Didn't porzingas begin his career alongside Doncic?

How was he going to develop being turned into spot-up shooter alongside a high-scoring ball-dominator like Luka or Lebron?

It's no surprise that he looks great alongside an expert jumpshooter Tatum the same way Wiggins, Pippen and Westbrook looked better alongside Curry or Jordan or Kawhi

So there's a massive history of guys looking good alongside expert jumpshooter like Curry, Kobe, MJ, Dirk, Bird, Kawhi, Durant etc like Westbrook made Finals with Durant or Pau becoming all-nba with kobe..... Then there's a massive history of guys cratering alongside ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron (Porzingas, Brunson, IT, Westbrook, Bosh, Ingram, Love and more cratered)

It's history

No.

[3ba11]

No.


That was his first major stint or tenure anywhere

Luka had bad fits with Porzingas and Brunson, while Lebron had bad fits with Bosh, Love, Westbrook, Ingram and many more

So it's clear that high-scoring ball-dominators have bad fits and can't grow young players either (can't win organically), while expert jumpshooters (Kawhi, Tatum, Curry, MJ) have great fits with everyone and grew many young players (won organically)

Again, it's history - I'm just reciting the historical record

[ShawkFactory]

That was his first major stint or tenure anywhere

Luka had bad fits with Porzingas and Brunson, while Lebron had bad fits with Bosh, Love, Westbrook, Ingram and many more

So it's clear that high-scoring ball-dominators have bad fits and can't grow young players either (can't win organically), while expert jumpshooters (Kawhi, Tatum, Curry, MJ) have great fits with everyone and grew many young players (won organically)

Again, it's history - I'm just reciting the historical record

It was not.

[90sgoat]

His first major stint was with Knicks in a situation similar to Wemby with no point guards and a bunch of nobodies trying to get a contract instead of feeding the big man.

Even so, in his second season, he averaged like 30/10 in the first 20 games before his injuries and iron deficiency issues set in and he got injured. Zingis was a star from the beginning.

It's true though that Doncic is the only player that Zingis has played with that made him lose confidence and go stand in a corner. In all other 3 ballclubs, he's been able to play his game. The fact that Doncic was too much of an egomaniac to share the spotlight with Zingis is a real blight on his career.

[Axe]

Didn't porzingas begin his career alongside Doncic?

How was he going to develop being turned into spot-up shooter alongside a high-scoring ball-dominator like Luka or Lebron?

It's no surprise that he looks great alongside an expert jumpshooter Tatum the same way Wiggins, Pippen and Westbrook looked better alongside Curry or Jordan or Kawhi

So there's a massive history of guys looking good alongside expert jumpshooter like Curry, Kobe, MJ, Dirk, Bird, Kawhi, Durant etc like Westbrook made Finals with Durant or Pau becoming all-nba with kobe..... Then there's a massive history of guys cratering alongside ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron (Porzingas, Brunson, IT, Westbrook, Bosh, Ingram, Love and more cratered)

It's history
1-9

[FultzNationRISE]

His first major stint was with Knicks in a situation similar to Wemby with no point guards and a bunch of nobodies trying to get a contract instead of feeding the big man.

Even so, in his second season, he averaged like 30/10 in the first 20 games before his injuries and iron deficiency issues set in and he got injured. Zingis was a star from the beginning.

It's true though that Doncic is the only player that Zingis has played with that made him lose confidence and go stand in a corner. In all other 3 ballclubs, he's been able to play his game. The fact that Doncic was too much of an egomaniac to share the spotlight with Zingis is a real blight on his career.

Doncic did not do that, the organization made the decision to move him to the perimeter after they originally started out posting him up and feeding him like a traditional big man and it didnt go well. He wasnt good at playing in the post at that time, so they consciously made him a perimeter shooter. It was a coaching decision and there's an article on ESPN about it. For whatever reason it never seemed to occur to them to find the middle ground of using him like a rim runner which is actually where he's most dangerous. But it was definitely a scheming issue, not Luka's decision. I'll post the article in a moment.

[90sgoat]

Doncic did not do that, the organization made the decision to move him to the perimeter after they originally started out posting him up and feeding him like a traditional big man and it didnt go well. He wasnt good at playing in the post at that time, so they consciously made him a perimeter shooter. It was a coaching decision and there's an article on ESPN about it. For whatever reason it never seemed to occur to them to find the middle ground of using him like a rim runner which is actually where he's most dangerous. But it was definitely a scheming issue, not Luka's decision. I'll post the article in a moment.

Luka sabotaged Zingis since day 1.

I know what I saw. Doncic couldn't handle not being the only euro in the village.

[SouBeachTalents]

Didn't porzingas begin his career alongside Doncic?

How was he going to develop being turned into spot-up shooter alongside a high-scoring ball-dominator like Luka or Lebron?

It's no surprise that he looks great alongside an expert jumpshooter Tatum the same way Wiggins, Pippen and Westbrook looked better alongside Curry or Jordan or Kawhi

So there's a massive history of guys looking good alongside expert jumpshooter like Curry, Kobe, MJ, Dirk, Bird, Kawhi, Durant etc like Westbrook made Finals with Durant or Pau becoming all-nba with kobe..... Then there's a massive history of guys cratering alongside ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron (Porzingas, Brunson, IT, Westbrook, Bosh, Ingram, Love and more cratered)

It's history
Of course this fvcking doofus wouldn't know he was drafted by the Knicks :lol Completely clueless.

[Axe]

Of course this fvcking doofus wouldn't know he was drafted by the Knicks :lol Completely clueless.
:roll:

And then we have a braindead psychopath here calling him the 'goat poster.' :lebronamazed:

[Real Men Wear Green]

I suppose you could think Porzingis is more valuable than Tatum if you have no idea what you're talking about.
Brown making the ASG over Porzingis was absurd. These idiots still just look at basic stats

JB averages 22 points. 5.6 boards and 3.7 assists on 49.5% shooting. He absolutely deserves to be an allstar and the subject isn't worthy of debate. Regarding Porzingis here's another basic statistic for you: 39 games. There have been a number of individual games where he had a better night than Brown. But it's not every night or extremely often and Brown has played in 49 games. Tatum and Brown are the guys that carry the offense every night, like they have for years. Porzingis may well have deserved someone else's allstar spot if he hadn't missed 14 games to date. It's very possible that he won't make the 65 game cut off mark for season awards. His impact is wonderful but a lot of you are disregarding the bread and butter in favor of the cake.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I don't know the exact reason why Porzingis and Doncic didn't work but I can tell you that in Boston he is surrounded by guys that give him the ball in goid positions for him to score. His shots are wide open threes, mismatch post up. Jumpers over defenders that can barely reach his face and finishing from the dunker spot. Most players don't have his versatility to be used as a finisher from so many different spots but if you tried to act like he's Dirk he would not be as effective. If Tatum and Brown differ to him and force fed him the ball for him to create the offense he's not going to be efficient because he doesn't have that kind of game. He isn't strong to create post position vs. a real big and isn't a ball handler to create shots off the dribble. He is great in a complimentary role. Which is why the Celtics use him the way that he do and he's having three most efficient season of his career.

[FultzNationRISE]

I don't know the exact reason why Porzingis and Doncic didn't work but I can tell you that in Boston he is surrounded by guys that give him the ball in goid positions for him to score. His shots are wide open threes, mismatch post up. Jumpers over defenders that can barely reach his face and finishing from the dunker spot. Most players don't have his versatility to be used as a finisher from so many different spots but if you tried to act like he's Dirk he would not be as effective. If Tatum and Brown differ to him and force fed him the ball for him to create the offense he's not going to be efficient because he doesn't have that kind of game. He isn't strong to create post position vs. a real big and isn't a ball handler to create shots off the dribble. He is great in a complimentary role. Which is why the Celtics use him the way that he do and he's having three most efficient season of his career.

This was the problem in Dallas. They didnt get him switches, they just played old school "throw it in to him down low and let him make a move" against regular bigs. Which was still more or less the conventional wisdom of the time. But he doesnt really have post moves and thats not his game. So instead they just told him to spot up outside.

I think people dont always appreciate how quickly offense has been evolving itself just in the last handful of years. Everyone seems to assume it's just the defense getting worse and more limited by the rules. No, offense has been refining noticeably year by year. Something that seems like a no brainer in 2024 didnt even occur to a veteran coach like Rick Carlisle in 2020, that's how quickly it's been evolving.

I think a big part of it started with Toody getting lit up on switches by Terrance Mann a few years ago, and everyone took notice, and realized just how punishing it can be to get bigs iso'd out on the perimeter in today's environment. The idea has existed forever but as perimeter shooting has gotten better its become a more and more dangerous weapon, and teams have started to realize that and adapted. This also leads to rim runners like Pingis getting big mismatches on the interior while the defender is pulled away.

[3ba11]

Of course this fvcking doofus wouldn't know he was drafted by the Knicks :lol Completely clueless.


Luka and Porzingas was horrible fit just like Luka and Brunson, while other high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron had many bad fits too.

SGA is kind of like 09' Lebron right now where his ball-domination is coupled with goat efficiency and athletic talent, so his team excels in the regular season but they'll get upset or underperform in the playoffs just like Lebron's attempts at organic chemistry in 09' or 10' - ball-dominators like Lebron/Luka fail by Year 7 to develop championship brand of ball or chemistry, while lower hold-time players like Jokic, Giannis, MJ, or Curry win organically by year 7.. SGA should follow the former route of luka/lebron and fail to win title by Year 7, while of course the non-ball-dominators have the capacity to develop that chemistry and normally do by Year 7.. carry on but don't say i didn't tell you

[NBAGOAT]

injuries were porzingis' main problem especially on defense. He was a worse player back then too but when he was healthy he was pretty good. was dominating in the bubble. Also going be able to exploit mismatches less being a 3rd option vs 2nd though that good post game started in washington.

[NBAGOAT]

Luka and Porzingas was horrible fit just like Luka and Brunson, while other high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron had many bad fits too.

SGA is kind of like 09' Lebron right now where his ball-domination is coupled with goat efficiency and athletic talent, so his team excels in the regular season but they'll get upset or underperform in the playoffs just like Lebron's attempts at organic chemistry in 09' or 10' - ball-dominators like Lebron/Luka fail by Year 7 to develop championship brand of ball or chemistry, while lower hold-time players like Jokic, Giannis, MJ, or Curry win organically by year 7.. SGA should follow the former route of luka/lebron and fail to win title by Year 7, while of course the non-ball-dominators have the capacity to develop that chemistry and normally do by Year 7.. carry on but don't say i didn't tell you

what a loophole you're using talking about year 7 for sga when he's been on a tanking team for like 2-3 years. Then his first two years he wasnt a star yet. Still i will come back to this comment if he wins a title his next few years. OKC is in that position

[3ba11]

what a loophole you're using talking about year 7 for sga when he's been on a tanking team for like 2-3 years. Then his first two years he wasnt a star yet. Still i will come back to this comment if he wins a title his next few years. OKC is in that position


yup, OKC looks super-great right now just like the 09' Cavs, who actually looked much better than OKC but lost as one of the 10 biggest favorites to ever lose a playoff series.. will SGA have the massive choke like Lebron did in that series??? (7 turnovers in 4th quarter of critical Game 4 that swung series)... well he certainly has the predictable ball-domination to get solved and bottled up like this when a big series hits it's zenith

see i use historical trends to predict the future (aka ball-domination is a fugazi) - when I'm right (again), you guys will say "crazy ol' 3ball" and dismiss it but it happens every year and you guys are always bewildered and left scratching your head.. The invariable reaction is ultimately "SGA just needs to team up with (insert opposing franchise player)".. See the reaction is a talent-based one (needs more help) because his ball-dominant style can't develop sufficient chemistry (imposes spot-up roles)..

That being said, SGA might get away with it because he starts at PG, so his ball-domination is not AS abnormal as Lebron starting at forward, which creates excessively ball-dominant lineups (2 PG lineups).. Ultimately, SGA is still very ball-dominant, so maybe he could win in a down year, which is not this year - Boston is my pick and the Nuggets will be right there

[90sgoat]

SGA is kind of like 09' Lebron right now

Not at all.

SGA is much more Iverson than Lebron.

If he can start at SG then he has a chance to win it.