Kawhi deserves to enter the MVP conversation

[basketballcat]

Jokic: 23W 11L, team without: 1W 0L. VORP 4.5. +/- 13.7
Embiid: 21W 5L, team without: 2W 5L. VORP 3.3. +/- 12.9
Giannis: 23W 10L, team without: 1W 0L. VORP 2.8. +/- 7.8
Shai: 23W 9L, team without: 0W 1L. VORP 2.8. +/- 10.3
Doncic: 20W 12L, team without: 0W 3L. VORP 3.4. +/- 9.4

Kawhi: 19W 10L, team without: 2W 2L. VORP 2.0. +/- 6.0

He's not one of the frontrunners as of yet, but he is in dark horse territory. If the Clippers take the top seed in the West, then he should be a serious contender.

[tontoz]

I doubt he plays the 65 game minimum.

[basketballcat]

I doubt he plays the 65 game minimum.

Kawhi is on pace to play 72 games.

It is Embiid who is in danger of missing out, as he is on pace to play just under 65 games (65 if you round it).

[tontoz]

Kawhi is on pace to play 72 games.

It is Embiid who is in danger of missing out, as he is on pace to play just under 65 games (65 if you round it).


Kawhi hasn't played 65 since 2017. At this point I think it is a safe assumption he won't play that many unless of course it is a contract year.:oldlol:

[Xiao Yao You]

Kawhi is on pace to play 72 games.

It is Embiid who is in danger of missing out, as he is on pace to play just under 65 games (65 if you round it).

played that many games twice 7 and 8 years ago. Highly unlikely. Hasn't played 60 in 5 years

[warriorfan]

played that many games twice 7 and 8 years ago. Highly unlikely. Hasn't played 60 in 5 years

Damn.

Kawhi’s injury issues have been terrible for the game.

What a shame.

[Jasper]

Jokic: 23W 11L, team without: 1W 0L. VORP 4.5. +/- 13.7
Embiid: 21W 5L, team without: 2W 5L. VORP 3.3. +/- 12.9
Giannis: 23W 10L, team without: 1W 0L. VORP 2.8. +/- 7.8
Shai: 23W 9L, team without: 0W 1L. VORP 2.8. +/- 10.3
Doncic: 20W 12L, team without: 0W 3L. VORP 3.4. +/- 9.4

Kawhi: 19W 10L, team without: 2W 2L. VORP 2.0. +/- 6.0

He's not one of the frontrunners as of yet, but he is in dark horse territory. If the Clippers take the top seed in the West, then he should be a serious contender.

huh:facepalm

[Xiao Yao You]

Adrian Wojnarowski: Kawhi Leonard has signed a contract extension with the Clippers, (https://*********.com/social/) team says.

– via Twitter wojespn (https://twitter.com/wojespn)




have fun with that one Clipps

[Xiao Yao You]

Shams Charania: Los Angeles Clippers star Kawhi Leonard signed a new three-year, $152.4 million contract extension, (https://*********.com/social/) keeping him under contract through the 2026-27 season, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium . Massive fully guaranteed, long-term commitment in LA.

– via Twitter ShamsCharania (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania)

[Xiao Yao You]

Shams Charania: Sources say there is no player option in Kawhi Leonard’s new deal, which is about $8.5 million under the maximum salary amount for his three years (https://*********.com/social/). Three years, $152.4M for the two-time NBA Finals MVP. 💰💰💰

– via Twitter ShamsCharania (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania)



got themselves a bargain :lol

[basketballcat]

Clippers are within striking distance of Western Conf top seed.

Kawhi is shooting at an efficient 52.5 FG%, 44.8 3pt%, and 88.5 FT%. Elite defense as well: 3rd on spg.

[NBAGOAT]

the top 3 have been too good for him to be in the convo but he's a dark horse. Maybe shouldve been an all star starter

[Full Court]

Jokic: 23W 11L, team without: 1W 0L. VORP 4.5. +/- 13.7
Embiid: 21W 5L, team without: 2W 5L. VORP 3.3. +/- 12.9
Giannis: 23W 10L, team without: 1W 0L. VORP 2.8. +/- 7.8
Shai: 23W 9L, team without: 0W 1L. VORP 2.8. +/- 10.3
Doncic: 20W 12L, team without: 0W 3L. VORP 3.4. +/- 9.4

Kawhi: 19W 10L, team without: 2W 2L. VORP 2.0. +/- 6.0

He's not one of the frontrunners as of yet, but he is in dark horse territory. If the Clippers take the top seed in the West, then he should be a serious contender.

All of the ones you mentioned are certainly in contention for MVP, but Anthony Edwards has to be in the conversation as well.

[ImKobe]

Issue is that his scoring volume is far too low. Insanely efficient and the on/off numbers show his impact as well, but Harden has played just as significant of a role for them IMO. Last year they had a mediocre offense and now they're top 5 in the league, and it's in large part thanks to Harden's playmaking and his own efficiency as a scorer.

No chance at winning the MVP unless he ups his scoring average, but I doubt that'll happen unless he needs to (injuries). Still it's been a heck of a comeback season for him thus far.

Kawhi's impact on D goes without saying though. If he makes it to 65 games he's probably my pick for both 1st team All-NBA and Defense.

[Full Court]

Issue is that his scoring volume is far too low. Insanely efficient and the on/off numbers show his impact as well, but Harden has played just as significant of a role for them IMO. Last year they had a mediocre offense and now they're top 5 in the league, and it's in large part thanks to Harden's playmaking and his own efficiency as a scorer.

No chance at winning the MVP unless he ups his scoring average, but I doubt that'll happen unless he needs to (injuries). Still it's been a heck of a comeback season for him thus far.

Kawhi's impact on D goes without saying though. If he makes it to 65 games he's probably my pick for both 1st team All-NBA and Defense.

MVP and scoring title are two different awards. I disagree that he should have to up his PPG to be considered.

[ImKobe]

MVP and scoring title are two different awards. I disagree that he should have to up his PPG to be considered.

Technically scoring shouldn't matter as much, but if you're comparing him to other players his PPG is ultimately what does him in. He was far too inconsistent early on in the season (and the reason why they struggled & lost a bunch of winnable games early on IMO) to be in the conversation right now. There's players like Giannis, SGA and Jokic who have been far more consistent.

A lot of the advanced stuff puts him top 5 in the league, but overall his production just isn't strong enough atm. 23/6/4/2/1 ain't gonna cut it. He'd have to average 29-30 on similar efficiency to be a true MVP candidate, and that's if his team also finished with a better record than the Nuggets, Thunder & Bucks. Counting stats matter.

I don't think the winning is going to be an issue for him, he just needs to score more. If he averages 28+ ppg post-ASB and gets them to the best record in the West I'd make an MVP case for him. He's averaged 27/7/4/2/1 on insane efficiency in his last 20 games, so it's doable. He's been trending upwards.

[90sgoat]

Shooting 45% from 3 this season.

That's impressive.

[basketballcat]

Clippers are now within half a game of the Western Conference top seed.

Kawhi is 20th in ppg. Only 3 of the players ahead of him have a better team record. Kawhi is not a volume scorer, he prefers efficient scoring. Of the players ahead of him in ppg, only 3 have better FG% (Cs excluded, as they typically have very high ppgs). Kawhi has been shooting 45.1% from 3. Of the top 20 scorers, nobody else comes close in 3pt%. Curry, on his very best season, shot 45.5% from 3.

Kawhi is also playing elite defense. 4th in steals. Only 1 player ahead in spg has a better team record.

Kawhi should definitely be in the top 5 in the MVP race. Maybe even as high às #3.

Jokic & Shai are really the only players that are clearly ahead of him.

[basketballcat]

Clippers are now #1 in the West.

[elementally morale]

Clippers are now #1 in the West.

Technically. It's basically a 4 way tie. Kawhi should be entering the MVP discussion but not because of this technical #1 spot. They lose a game and they are all of a sudden 4th.

[basketballcat]

Technically. It's basically a 4 way tie. Kawhi should be entering the MVP discussion but not because of this technical #1 spot. They lose a game and they are all of a sudden 4th.

It's not a tie. Clippers are #1 if the playoffs started right now. Any of the top 4 could lose and slide further down.

It's tight, yes. But #1 seed is #1 seed.

[elementally morale]

It's not a tie. Clippers are #1 if the playoffs started right now. Any of the top 4 could lose and slide further down.

It's tight, yes. But #1 seed is #1 seed.

They played 2 less games than the other 3 teams have. But it really is not the point. Technically speaking, the Clippers are #1. For any reasonable observer it's a 4 team tie. But let's not discuss this further.

The interesting thing to me is whether the Clippers can continue their winning ways. They were the best team in the last 4-5 weeks or so. Is it permanent? That team can beat every other team in a series the way they play recently. There are a few teams like the Clippers in this regard but I think less than 5.

[90sgoat]

I've always wanted Kawhi to win a ring with Clips.

3 rings with 3 teams, that's the same as Lebron.

[basketballcat]

I've always wanted Kawhi to win a ring with Clips.

3 rings with 3 teams, that's the same as Lebron.

If Kawhi wins MVP, he would have achieved all the major awards that Olajuwon has achieved.

If Kawhi gets an FMVP with the Clippers, he joins LeBron in an extremely elite club of just 2 members.

[Xiao Yao You]

let's see if Kawhi is walking come April first

[Stephonit]

Playing with Harden and George doesn't disqualify him?

[Axe]

Playing with Harden and George doesn't disqualify him?
Interesting.

[basketballcat]

Playing with Harden and George doesn't disqualify him?

Was Steph disqualified when he had an All NBA teammate and 2 players in the All Defensive team?

Kawhi has an All Star reserve teammate. Giannis has an All Star starter. Tatum has an All Star teammate as well. Same with Durant, LeBron, and A Edwards.

If anything, it can be argued that Kawhi is the type of franchise player than enables others to fit in. Harden's production is lower in LAC than in PHI and BRK. Yet it clicks in LAC.

[kawhileonard2]

Kawhi is the MVP and the best player.

[elementally morale]

They played 2 less games than the other 3 teams have. But it really is not the point. Technically speaking, the Clippers are #1. For any reasonable observer it's a 4 team tie. But let's not discuss this further.

The interesting thing to me is whether the Clippers can continue their winning ways. They were the best team in the last 4-5 weeks or so. Is it permanent? That team can beat every other team in a series the way they play recently. There are a few teams like the Clippers in this regard but I think less than 5.


Case in point. They lost a game and all of a sudden they are not 1st but 4th. Are they any worse than they were yesterday? Obviously not.

Q.E.D.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Case in point. They lost a game and all of a sudden they are not 1st but 4th. Are they any worse than they were yesterday? Obviously not.

Q.E.D.

It may seem silly to you, someone else and a lot of other people but that logic makes Tatum the MVP so I'm all for it.

[basketballcat]

Case in point. They lost a game and all of a sudden they are not 1st but 4th. Are they any worse than they were yesterday? Obviously not.

Q.E.D.

Wow, losing a game is bad for standings.

No sh**, Sherlock.

[Stephonit]

Was Steph disqualified when he had an All NBA teammate and 2 players in the All Defensive team?

Kawhi has an All Star reserve teammate. Giannis has an All Star starter. Tatum has an All Star teammate as well. Same with Durant, LeBron, and A Edwards.

If anything, it can be argued that Kawhi is the type of franchise player than enables others to fit in. Harden's production is lower in LAC than in PHI and BRK. Yet it clicks in LAC.

What did Steph's teammates accomplish without him? In comparison Harden was an MVP and Paul George third in MVP voting without Kawhi.

[elementally morale]

Case in point. They lost a game and all of a sudden they are not 1st but 4th. Are they any worse than they were yesterday? Obviously not.

Q.E.D.

I am and have always been against the idea that standings should have a big effect on the MVP selection. It is as silly as the idea that number of rings is to determine the better player. I'd give the MVP to the player that played the best and had the most impact on the most games in the regular season.

[elementally morale]

Wow, losing a game is bad for standings.

No sh**, Sherlock.

Interesting. I said Kawhi deserves to be in the race but NOT because of the team being zero games above the other teams while playing less games and being #1 on a technicality (for like a day or so). According to your logic, Kawhi is less deserving now. According to mine he is just as deserving as he was 2 days ago. Yet you are the one fighting for him.

[basketballcat]

What did Steph's teammates accomplish without him? In comparison Harden was an MVP and Paul George third in MVP voting without Kawhi.

Harden was MVP when dinosaurs still roamed Earth. PG came 3rd in MVP when Jesus was still alive.

What they are in 2023-2024 is what matters. PG is an All Star reserve, backing up Kawhi. Same setup with several teams.

Steph had a stacked team on the year he won MVP. If they didn't win 73 games, Kawhi would probably have an MVP by now.

[basketballcat]

Interesting. I said Kawhi deserves to be in the race but NOT because of the team being zero games above the other teams while playing less games and being #1 on a technicality (for like a day or so). According to your logic, Kawhi is less deserving now. According to mine he is just as deserving as he was 2 days ago. Yet you are the one fighting for him.

Kawhi is less deserving now because they lost a game. Still an MVP contender, but less deserving.

Winning and losing games matter. Obviously.

[aj1987]

Clippers are now within half a game of the Western Conference top seed.

Kawhi is 20th in ppg. Only 3 of the players ahead of him have a better team record. Kawhi is not a volume scorer, he prefers efficient scoring. Of the players ahead of him in ppg, only 3 have better FG% (Cs excluded, as they typically have very high ppgs). Kawhi has been shooting 45.1% from 3. Of the top 20 scorers, nobody else comes close in 3pt%. Curry, on his very best season, shot 45.5% from 3.

Kawhi is also playing elite defense. 4th in steals. Only 1 player ahead in spg has a better team record.

Kawhi should definitely be in the top 5 in the MVP race. Maybe even as high às #3.

Jokic & Shai are really the only players that are clearly ahead of him.

He's been good, but not elite.

[basketballcat]

He's been good, but not elite.

Literally only 3 players have more steals. That's way above just "good".

[Xiao Yao You]

Literally only 3 players have more steals. That's way above just "good".

if steals meant anything. Could just mean you're gambling a lot

[basketballcat]

if steals meant anything. Could just mean you're gambling a lot

Except that's not Kawhi. He literally won 2 DPOYs. Led defenses that slowed down Giannis and LeBron.

[Xiao Yao You]

Except that's not Kawhi. He literally won 2 DPOYs. Led defenses that slowed down Giannis and LeBron.

yeah but steals aren't why he's great

[basketballcat]

yeah but steals aren't why he's great

He literally led the league in steals in one of his DPOY years. But of course, his defensive game is a lot more than steals.

[aj1987]

Literally only 3 players have more steals. That's way above just "good".

AI led the league in steals 3 times.

[basketballcat]

AI led the league in steals 3 times.

How many DPOYs does AI have? How many times has AI led defenses on players like Giannis?

Payton led the league in steals.

There are players where steals is a meaningless stat. There are players where steals mean something. Anyone who knows anything about basketball knows which group Kawhi belongs to.

[Axe]

What did Steph's teammates accomplish without him? In comparison Harden was an MVP and Paul George third in MVP voting without Kawhi.
Umm, mcgee won a ring four years ago and then you have patrick mccaw who was part of a team that prevented your hero from three-peating in 2019...

[aj1987]

How many DPOYs does AI have? How many times has AI led defenses on players like Giannis?

Payton led the league in steals.

There are players where steals is a meaningless stat. There are players where steals mean something. Anyone who knows anything about basketball knows which group Kawhi belongs to.

The last time Kawhi won DPOY was 8 years ago. IMO, he shouldn't have been selected to the All-Def team in 2021.

As for his defense on Giannis, did you watch that series? From a post on Reddit:

"his defense was honestly way better in 2020 than 2019, he was coasting on D in 2019 because he had a phenomenal raptors defense at every single position that could cover for him defensively (and needed his offensive expertise), but in 2020 the clippers' defensive cast was poorer so he locked in on D much more

even that "giannis lockdown" series was a little overrated, yes he was good as a primary defender but what really slowed giannis down was the "wall", the double teams from siakam/gasol/lowry etc. https://youtu.be/L-EPx-v1XIY

miami rebooted the concept in 2020 https://mikeprada.substack.com/p/stunt-doubles"


I'm not calling him a bad defender or anything either. I called him a good one, but not elite.

[Hey Yo]

Literally only 3 players have more steals. That's way above just "good".

Steals are usually about bad passes or tipped balls than it is about pickpocketing or clean strips.

[basketballcat]

The last time Kawhi won DPOY was 8 years ago. IMO, he shouldn't have been selected to the All-Def team in 2021.

As for his defense on Giannis, did you watch that series? From a post on Reddit:

"his defense was honestly way better in 2020 than 2019, he was coasting on D in 2019 because he had a phenomenal raptors defense at every single position that could cover for him defensively (and needed his offensive expertise), but in 2020 the clippers' defensive cast was poorer so he locked in on D much more

even that "giannis lockdown" series was a little overrated, yes he was good as a primary defender but what really slowed giannis down was the "wall", the double teams from siakam/gasol/lowry etc. https://youtu.be/L-EPx-v1XIY

miami rebooted the concept in 2020 https://mikeprada.substack.com/p/stunt-doubles"


I'm not calling him a bad defender or anything either. I called him a good one, but not elite.

Wow, reddit. What a great source. Lol.

Raptors were down 0-2. Did you actually watch that series. As usual, they hid their star (Kawhi) on defense. Siakam and the rest were hapless against Giannis.

Then Raptors switched it up. Kawhi led the defense on Giannis. Difference was night and day. On multiple possessions, Giannis was afraid to attack and simply passed up the ball. That's peak Giannis, on his MVP year.

On top of that, led both teams on points as well. On top of that, Kawhi was already limping on 1 leg.

Casuals missed that, but was one of the greatest playoff runs ever.

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2019-kawhi-leonards-defense-on-giannis-antetokounmpo-has-changed-the-series-eastern-conference-finals/yjy605u7nlai1ie63rx33qthz

[basketballcat]

Casuals forget how ridiculous Kawhi is, on defense.

Here's a no look steal. Anybody else has a no look steal? Lol. 🤭

https://youtu.be/0_ZB9u7AKv8?si=YKX_mVU3PfqKqR3X

[Axe]

Wow, reddit. What a great source. Lol.

Raptors were down 0-2. Did you actually watch that series. As usual, they hid their star (Kawhi) on defense. Siakam and the rest were hapless against Giannis.

Then Raptors switched it up. Kawhi led the defense on Giannis. Difference was night and day. On multiple possessions, Giannis was afraid to attack and simply passed up the ball. That's peak Giannis, on his MVP year.

On top of that, led both teams on points as well. On top of that, Kawhi was already limping on 1 leg.

Casuals missed that, but was one of the greatest playoff runs ever.

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2019-kawhi-leonards-defense-on-giannis-antetokounmpo-has-changed-the-series-eastern-conference-finals/yjy605u7nlai1ie63rx33qthz
It was his best playoff run ever. Forget the damn injury excuses by the warriors in that finals. It was an ultimate revenge that came two years later anyway against the same team that caused his quad injury in 2017. Many should try to realize this. After the title, he immediately moved on to the clippers just to play with george (would have stayed on the raps had they granted his request to trade for him bt) but none of his seasons with them so far came close to that. His reasons for playing rn is probably different tho; maybe playing just for the sake of doing it in his hometown instead of winning a ring. I could be wrong but i don't see this clippers team ending up with a chip later on, however currently 'successful' they are.

[basketballcat]

It was his best playoff run ever. Forget the damn injury excuses by the warriors in that finals. It was an ultimate revenge that came two years later anyway against the same team that caused his quad injury in 2017. Many should try to realize this. After the title, he immediately moved on to the clippers just to play with george (would have stayed on the raps had they granted his request to trade for him bt) but none of his seasons with them so far came close to that. His reasons for playing rn is probably different tho; maybe playing just for the sake of doing it in his hometown instead of winning a ring. I could be wrong but i don't see this clippers team ending up with a chip later on, however currently 'successful' they are.

Clippers, Nuggets, Celtics, & Bucks have what it takes. A bunch of other teams could have a great playoffs and make it deep into the playoffs.

I've followed this Clippers team since Kawhi got there. They always had a chance, but key weaknesses got in the way.
Nuggers bounched them in the bubble because their starting C was 2'11". Zubac is a double double machine now. Plumlee is a big that actually big enough.
Clippers haven't achieved their full offensive potential because of stagnant ball movement. Harden fixed that.
Clippers wing defense was supposed to be elite, but they didn't mesh together in the Beverly days. That's fixed now, with Westbrook bringing a lot of energy.
Mentally challenged coach has been booted as well, replaced with somebody who actually knows Xs and Os.

They only have a slight weakness in the front court. Every team has at least a slight weakness.

[Axe]

I won't deny how the clippers are capable but i don't trust their retarded coach. He only inherited a team that had a former fmvp, as well as guys that were former mvps (well he actually came first before them). Without guys that don't have those kinds of honors, he had an awful, paltry record. Like the 18/19 cavs before he got fired early and the cavs' record without lebron in 2016-18.

[basketballcat]

I won't deny how the clippers are capable but i don't trust their retarded coach. He only inherited a team that had a former fmvp, as well as guys that were former mvps (well he actually came first before them). Without guys that don't have those kinds of honors, he had an awful, paltry record. Like the 18/19 cavs before he got fired early and the cavs' record without lebron in 2016-18.

Anyone is better than Doc Rivers. Ty Lue can be very good, like in 2021 when the Clippers made the conf finals on a skeleton crew. He was full on Xs and Os then. Still is, but with questionable lapses. Happens to the best of 'em. Raptors could have iced GSW in 5 if not for Nick Nurse's timeout.

[Axe]

Anyone is better than Doc Rivers. Ty Lue can be very good, like in 2021 when the Clippers are the conf finalson a skeleton crew.
Maybe. But they only got there because of bad reffing that favored them against the jazz in the 2021 wcsf. Their realistic chance at a ring happened four years ago but then again, doc rivers made them pretentious contenders bt. Now they are coming again together, with addition of two veterans but we'll see what happens first later.

[aj1987]

Wow, reddit. What a great source. Lol.

Raptors were down 0-2. Did you actually watch that series. As usual, they hid their star (Kawhi) on defense. Siakam and the rest were hapless against Giannis.

Then Raptors switched it up. Kawhi led the defense on Giannis. Difference was night and day. On multiple possessions, Giannis was afraid to attack and simply passed up the ball. That's peak Giannis, on his MVP year.

On top of that, led both teams on points as well. On top of that, Kawhi was already limping on 1 leg.

Casuals missed that, but was one of the greatest playoff runs ever.

https://www.sportingnews.com/ca/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2019-kawhi-leonards-defense-on-giannis-antetokounmpo-has-changed-the-series-eastern-conference-finals/yjy605u7nlai1ie63rx33qthz

That was more of a reference than a source. I stand by what I said. Kawhi is not an elite defender any more. He's good, but not great.

I did watch the series, but you probably haven't. You might find full games on YT. Try watching a game. :cheers: