Chet Holmgren is having the best rookie season since Tim Duncan

[1987_Lakers]

Prove me wrong.

[Axe]

Poor wemby the giraffe. Hopefully, he'll have his day too.

[Full Court]

Prove me wrong.

Great argument to make your case. As usual. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Great argument to make your case. As usual. :lol

He's already a top tier defensive player with some crazy offensive skill for his size, he could shoot, handle the ball, but still sets screens like a traditional big man. You've seen some rookies come in and straight away become an offensive threat, Kyrie in particular comes into mind who was a rookie with an already polished offensive game, but what seperates Holmgren from all of them is his defensive presence. He's already making a case for being among the league's best rim protectors. One thing that needs some work is his passing, he does have a bit of tunnel vision, but I won't hold that against him, most bigs can't really pass.

Now, can you prove me wrong?

[Axe]

He's already a top tier defensive player with some crazy offensive skill for his size, he could shoot, handle the ball, but still sets screens like a traditional big man. You've seen some rookies come in and straight away become an offensive threat, Kyrie in particular comes into mind who was a rookie with an already polished offensive game, but what seperates Holmgren from all of them is his defensive presence. He's already making a case for being among the league's best rim protectors. One thing that needs some work is his passing, he does have a bit of tunnel vision, but I won't hold that against him, most bigs can't really pass.

Now, can you prove me wrong?
Maybe chet holmgren will have to go back to last season and propel his team somewhere bet. the 4th-6th seed (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?512885-The-team-no-one-is-talking-about&p=14803469&viewfull=1#post14803469) first for people to be convinced that he's the unanimous roty. :confusedshrug:

[fourkicks44]

Joel Embiid's rookie season untill he got injured was more impressive. Purely from the numbers

[iamgine]

I'd say Luka was better

[Mask the Embiid]

Joel Embiid's rookie season untill he got injured was more impressive. Purely from the numbers

This. He averaged like 20-7in only 25 mins per game. He was pretty much playing 6 man off the bench minutes and would have averaged 28 and 11 if he was healthy his rookie year. Way better than Chet and Tim



He is truly one of a kind

[Carbine]

Blake was better.

[egokiller]

Prove me wrong.

But can he keep it up? Can he win the chip in 3 different decades?

[fourkicks44]

This. He averaged like 20-7in only 25 mins per game. He was pretty much playing 6 man off the bench minutes and would have averaged 28 and 11 if he was healthy his rookie year. Way better than Chet and Tim



He is truly one of a kind

Yeah his numbers were only comparable to rookie Wilt. He was well and truly in a class of his own in terms of production as a rookie.


Plus he led what was considered the worst team in history (years before was worse actually, but you know how bad these teams were) to playoff contention before he was injured.

If Chet gets to February with the same numbers then you might have an argument, OP, but not yet.

[gonzaldo]

OK, he has a defensive presence, but raw numbers arent impressive enough, 17/7/2 and of course he is great at rim protecting and blocking shots, but lest say is this more impressive than even Ben Simmons rookie season?
Maybe he is the most polished rookie since Tim or something like that?

[1987_Lakers]

OK, he has a defensive presence, but raw numbers arent impressive enough, 17/7/2

Look at the other rookie numbers since Duncan, none have really been eye popping. LeBron averaged like 20, so did Luka, both had troubles with efficiency. I won't count Embiid since he didn't play enough games. I think Blake averaged like 22 or something like that, but I'm taking Holmgren because of his defense.

[1987_Lakers]

I honestly believe you can make a solid case for CP3, which nobody has brought up so far.

[SouBeachTalents]

I honestly believe you can make a solid case for CP3, which nobody has brought up so far.
His efficiency isn't good either.

[1987_Lakers]

His efficiency isn't good either.

It's actually above average if you compare his TS% to the rest of the league in 2006. While Luka & LeBron's were below average.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's actually above average if you compare his TS% to the rest of the league in 2006. While Luka & LeBron's were below average.
That's purely due to FT shooting, which counts obv, but his numbers from the field, 43% & 28% from 3 are not good splits and on par with LeBron & Luka.

[RRR3]

That's purely due to FT shooting, which counts obv, but his numbers from the field, 43% & 28% from 3 are not good splits and on par with LeBron & Luka.
So what? You can't just disregard FTs :lol

Westbrook forgetting how to shoot FTs was the difference between him being a star and mid

[iamgine]

Chet's impressive but isn't even that good. To me he's around top 30ish player while for example rookie Blake and Luka was a top 20 player.

[Im Still Ballin]

I agree OP. People who get too caught up in box score numbers will probably disagree but his impact has been nothing short of elite.

[Im Still Ballin]

Dunks and Three's highly-touted Estimated Plus-Minus (EPM) statistic has him as the 6th most impactful player in the league. He's the #1 defender (100th percentile) and in the 88th percentile for offense.

https://dunksandthrees.com/epm

[FultzNationRISE]

Dunks and Three's highly-touted Estimated Plus-Minus (EPM) statistic has him as the 6th most impactful player in the league. He's the #1 defender (100th percentile) and in the 88th percentile for offense.

https://dunksandthrees.com/epm


I agree the raw stats under sell him, tho those advanced stats probably oversell him a bit at the moment.

What I'm impressed with about Chet is that he doesnt play like he's intimidated by being an NBA rookie. He plays like he's already the bully. Not necessarily in terms of physicality, but just his demeanor. He's not worried about "overstepping his limits" as a rookie or any of that. He plays like he knows he already belongs on the court with the NBA's best (but not in a delusional way like Poole for instance) and he doesnt act timid.

Naturally he'd have more production on a worse team, which is why theres no real point in comparing his rookie numbers to anyone. He's the second option on a team that moves the ball and is trying to win. It's actually a credit to him that he's able to find the appropriate amount to contribute within that framework. Ive always said that's an underrated skill, having the intuition to find the proper balance between being too passive and overly assertive.

[ImKobe]

Blake Griffin

[Trollsmasher]

I agree the raw stats under sell him, tho those advanced stats probably oversell him a bit at the moment.

What I'm impressed with about Chet is that he doesnt play like he's intimidated by being an NBA rookie. He plays like he's already the bully. Not necessarily in terms of physicality, but just his demeanor. He's not worried about "overstepping his limits" as a rookie or any of that. He plays like he knows he already belongs on the court with the NBA's best (but not in a delusional way like Poole for instance) and he doesnt act timid.

Naturally he'd have more production on a worse team, which is why theres no real point in comparing his rookie numbers to anyone. He's the second option on a team that moves the ball and is trying to win. It's actually a credit to him that he's able to find the appropriate amount to contribute within that framework. Ive always said that's an underrated skill, having the intuition to find the proper balance between being too passive and overly assertive.

he's got that dawg in him

[Kblaze8855]

Westbrook forgetting how to shoot FTs was the difference between him being a star and mid



How would an extra .6 ppg from shooting 80 percent instead of .667 have made Laker Westbrook a star instead of “mid”? Exact same difference on the wizards. He shot 76% on the rockets so even less change there. He was all nba second team shooting 74% before that. And first team and mvp before that.

At what point does adding half a point per game take him from “mid” back to being a star?

He didn’t take enough during his decline for the difference between mid 60s and 80 percent to even matter much.

[Full Court]

He's already a top tier defensive player with some crazy offensive skill for his size, he could shoot, handle the ball, but still sets screens like a traditional big man. You've seen some rookies come in and straight away become an offensive threat, Kyrie in particular comes into mind who was a rookie with an already polished offensive game, but what seperates Holmgren from all of them is his defensive presence. He's already making a case for being among the league's best rim protectors. One thing that needs some work is his passing, he does have a bit of tunnel vision, but I won't hold that against him, most bigs can't really pass.

Now, can you prove me wrong?

I don't disagree with you.

You should have made this your first post though. It would have been a much better way to start a thread.

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t think the season Chet is having would win ROY over Blake or a few others. I’m not sure he would get my vote this year with Wemby leading rookies in points, rebounds blocks and steals. Being added to the worst team in the league as opposed to a play in team with a borderline mvp caliber teammate? I’m not factoring in the wins as much in that situation.

He’s a very good all-around player for a rookie. And very prepared and poised as people mentioned. But guys we don’t even remember in these talks were that. Wade was having playoff games put on him to decide as a rookie.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/S-Op-CdfiOI?si=lG6JL9xF4paCVCYo


That’s his first playoff game. As a rookie. They get out of the way and let him go win it.

He wasn’t as consistent as he would become but even as a rookie he only had a couple off playoff games and had taken over as franchise player. Shaq saw him and knew he was his new Kobe and agreed to go to Miami.

He doesn’t have the raw numbers of Blake or Embiid or probably Luka(I’m not checking all that) but he was poised from day one.

[999Guy]

Wembanyama is not close to the offensive player or scorer Chet is.

Chet is on a team with about 4 or so above average offensive guys. Being on such a good team is hurting his raw output. He’s consciously trying to not make mistakes and **** up the flow.

If he had the reins he’d probably be growing right now offensively. His growth is honestly being stunted if you just watch how that team functions.

Defensively it can be whatever but offensively Wembanyama is not close, he has no identity on offense yet.

[Wardell Curry]

Since Duncan? Best rookie season?

LeBron James.

[tontoz]

Easy pick over Wemby for sure. The gap in shooting is so big that Wemby is a pretty distant 2nd.

[Kblaze8855]

Wembanyama is not close to the offensive player or scorer Chet is.

Chet is on a team with about 4 or so above average offensive guys. Being on such a good team is hurting his raw output. He’s consciously trying to not make mistakes and **** up the flow.

If he had the reins he’d probably be growing right now offensively. His growth is honestly being stunted if you just watch how that team functions.

Defensively it can be whatever but offensively Wembanyama is not close, he has no identity on offense yet.


Weird to me that people think playing with good smart teammates is a hindrance while also talking about things like efficiency. Wemby is done no favors playing with these dudes:


https://i.ibb.co/B2J8Qyd/IMG-7229.gif




You give him better teammates, who have some common sense he would shoot better from the field just off the ridiculous amount of time they miss him wide-open cutting to the basket. I swear Mark Jackson on the Spurs right now would have Wemby doing about 24 points a game.

[Carbine]

Scott Skiles would have him at 27ppg

[tpols]

Chet is pretty amazing... 7 foot long build with guard skills and rim protector instincts. Hes only 20 years old. When he fills out hes gonna be unstoppable.

[Kblaze8855]

Hell look at the whole sequence. They miss him on the cut…he goes down and contests a three that misses…he runs the floor…they ignore him again. It’s not that he doesn’t get shots…it’s that they miss him for so many easy ones. I swear he’s ignored for what should be 2 easy layups or dunks a night. Every broadcast team brings it up. It’s like current players don’t even know how to deal with a big flashing open. They aren’t trained to look for it.

[Kblaze8855]

Sorry. The sequence in question




https://youtu.be/07EJrGArS44?si=5o0CWXwEuLNqB8qK

[tpols]

I don’t think the season Chet is having would win ROY over Blake or a few others. I’m not sure he would get my vote this year with Wemby leading rookies in points, rebounds blocks and steals. Being added to the worst team in the league as opposed to a play in team with a borderline mvp caliber teammate? I’m not factoring in the wins as much in that situation.

He’s a very good all-around player for a rookie. And very prepared and poised as people mentioned. But guys we don’t even remember in these talks were that. Wade was having playoff games put on him to decide as a rookie.

Blake was an early grower and already filled out by 20. What Chet is doing is amazing because if he gains 20 lbs he'll be unstoppable. And plus Griffin didn't play defense with those trex body builder arms.

And I'm sure Chet will be a key player for his team in the playoffs too.

If healthy he most likely will go down as the greatest white American player ever besides Larry Bird.

[ILLsmak]

https://youtu.be/S-Op-CdfiOI?si=lG6JL9xF4paCVCYo


That’s his first playoff game. As a rookie. They get out of the way and let him go win it.

He wasn’t as consistent as he would become but even as a rookie he only had a couple off playoff games and had taken over as franchise player. Shaq saw him and knew he was his new Kobe and agreed to go to Miami.

He doesn’t have the raw numbers of Blake or Embiid or probably Luka(I’m not checking all that) but he was poised from day one.

yes, Wade. He played a lot in college tho. It does matter, but Wade was special. Was good to see him doing it as rook while the RoY was @ home.

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

Weird to me that people think playing with good smart teammates is a hindrance while also talking about things like efficiency. Wemby is done no favors playing with these dudes:


https://i.ibb.co/B2J8Qyd/IMG-7229.gif




You give him better teammates, who have some common sense he would shoot better from the field just off the ridiculous amount of time they miss him wide-open cutting to the basket. I swear Mark Jackson on the Spurs right now would have Wemby doing about 24 points a game.

Now teammates matter? I thought guys are supposed to win regardless of the circumstances be it playing an 8th seed or being in a weak conference or playing with Exum and Burke.

[Wardell Curry]

Chet is pretty amazing... 7 foot long build with guard skills and rim protector instincts. Hes only 20 years old. When he fills out hes gonna be unstoppable.

He will be 22 in May.

[999Guy]

Sorry. The sequence in question




https://youtu.be/07EJrGArS44?si=5o0CWXwEuLNqB8qK

Needing to passed to is a problem in itself though. When it comes down to it Chet can create from anywhere with the ball in his hands. He's not Durant, but he's not Wemby either.

I truly don't believe you can make Chet look bad on offense. Too well rounded. I will say Wemby's situation is extreme. But there's a big skill gap here.

[SaltyMeatballs]

ROY and it's not close. His efficiency makes his numbers far more impressive than Wemby's and he can easily average 20+ if he wanted to. No knock on Wemby but Chet's been THAT good. OKC struck gold with him. Should've been the #1 pick if we're being real.

[Kblaze8855]

I wouldn’t say he needs to be fed the ball to score because he can and often does create his own shot from scratch. But the efficiency argument to me is lacking when I watch so many of their games, and he is consistently working to get what should be easy baskets, but not getting them. The reason somebody shoots 50% is because they usually make all of the easy ones and less than half of the hard ones. You take away one or two easy ones a game, and there’s a drastic impact on efficiency, that matters for the kind of person who doesn’t look at anything else.

[tontoz]

Chet shoots 10% better than Wemby on 2s, 3s and FTs. Hard to pin that on teammates. At 7'4" nobody can really contest Wemby's jumper yet his midrange shooting is awful.

[Dbrog]

Now teammates matter? I thought guys are supposed to win regardless of the circumstances be it playing an 8th seed or being in a weak conference or playing with Exum and Burke.

Most guys can't but the great ones can certainly raise a team's floor. It's always been known if you have great teammates it becomes much easier to succeed. Have you ever actually played ball before? I'd be pissed if I were Wemby with what pop is letting these other guys get away with..Seems straight tank to me as Pop was never like this before

[Xiao Yao You]

Most guys can't but the great ones can certainly raise a team's floor. It's always been known if you have great teammates it becomes much easier to succeed. Have you ever actually played ball before? I'd be pissed if I were Wemby with what pop is letting these other guys get away with..Seems straight tank to me as Pop was never like this before

I played ball

[tontoz]

Most guys can't but the great ones can certainly raise a team's floor. It's always been known if you have great teammates it becomes much easier to succeed. Have you ever actually played ball before? I'd be pissed if I were Wemby with what pop is letting these other guys get away with..Seems straight tank to me as Pop was never like this before

I suspect that Pop is trying to keep the pressure off Wemby. If they tried to run everything through Wemby and he struggled that could really put him in a negative spotlight.

[Trollsmasher]

Chet actually has lower percentage of two point FGs assisted than Wemby (64% vs 72%). It's the other way around for three pointers (98% vs 80%). That suggests that Chet is better at creating a better shot for himself. Eye test confirms that - for example the yesterday's game against LAC had Chet repeatedly put the ball on floor in iso against both big and small defenders and comfortably getting anything he wanted. Chet just has a tighter handle, better body control and better idea of what he wants to do.

The OKC offense doesn't actually do much to get Chet specifically good looks. SGA primarily looks for his own shot and so does JDub.

[SaltyMeatballs]

I played ball

Have you ever been ejected? If so, did you yell "can't quit me!" on the way out?

[Im Still Ballin]

Chet actually has lower percentage of two point FGs assisted than Wemby (64% vs 72%). It's the other way around for three pointers (98% vs 80%). That suggests that Chet is better at creating a better shot for himself. Eye test confirms that - for example the yesterday's game against LAC had Chet repeatedly put the ball on floor in iso against both big and small defenders and comfortably getting anything he wanted. Chet just has a tighter handle, better body control and better idea of what he wants to do.

The OKC offense doesn't actually do much to get Chet specifically good looks. SGA primarily looks for his own shot and so does JDub.

Good post. Wemby shoots like 29-30% on open threes while Chet shoots like 37%. I'll have to check the numbers.

[tontoz]

Chet actually has lower percentage of two point FGs assisted than Wemby (64% vs 72%). It's the other way around for three pointers (98% vs 80%). That suggests that Chet is better at creating a better shot for himself. Eye test confirms that - for example the yesterday's game against LAC had Chet repeatedly put the ball on floor in iso against both big and small defenders and comfortably getting anything he wanted. Chet just has a tighter handle, better body control and better idea of what he wants to do.

The OKC offense doesn't actually do much to get Chet specifically good looks. SGA primarily looks for his own shot and so does JDub.


I've watched OKC several times and that is what i see. They aren't running plays for Chet. SGA is definitely the center of the offense and has the green light to do whatever he wants, not that it's a bad thing.

[Kblaze8855]

I suspect that Pop is trying to keep the pressure off Wemby. If they tried to run everything through Wemby and he struggled that could really put him in a negative spotlight.

I don’t think it’s something they set out to do but it happens a curious number of times. I will just bounce around through league pass when I have nothing to do and the number of times I’ve seen something like this is head scratching:


https://i.ibb.co/f9kbVX4/IMG-7231.gif



I don’t necessarily think the players have a personal problem with him, but you can pull up a number of YouTube videos over the last couple months with fans and observers pointing out time and time again that he gets open and nobody seems to notice. I actually think it’s just the players being raised differently. When you and I were kids, if the big ran the floor and threw his hand up, you were looking for him. That’s where a lot of people got their easy baskets.

I remember shaq talking shit about Dwight Howard. Saying he doesn’t even need to be more skilled. He just needs to run the floor hard and duck inside and demand the ball. Victor is surprisingly good off the ball. I’ve seen him eat people up and cut to the basket and his guards are just dribbling like they don’t see it.

I figure it will be ironed out in time because they have to be watching film as well. And I have no indication they are just freezing him out. He gets his shots. He just doesn’t get the easy ones he should a lot of the time and it’s weird. Hes such a big athletic target and passes stay a second late or don’t come at all.

Probably just early chemistry issues but I swear every opposing commentator in the league laughs at the spurs when I’m watching league pass when they miss him over and over. But all the color guys are old players who are used to always looking for that guy.

I won’t even say they need to run more offense through him. But anybody open should get the ball to dunk it. It just seems like somehow he gets overlooked.

[Im Still Ballin]

Victor Wembanyama open three-point shots (closest defender 4+ feet away):

- 29.3% 3PT on 4.1 attempts per game (1.2 3PM/4.1 3PA)

Chet Holmgren open three-point shots (closest defender 4+ feet away):

- 38.5% 3PT on 3.9 attempts per game (1.5 3PM/3.9 3PA)

[meat]

Prove me wrong.

Ok Crowder. It's not anybody's job to prove you wrong. It's your job to prove yourself right a-hole. Why should we do the dirty work for you? You started the thread.

[tontoz]

I don’t think it’s something they set out to do but it happens a curious number of times. I will just bounce around through league pass when I have nothing to do and the number of times I’ve seen something like this is head scratching:


https://i.ibb.co/f9kbVX4/IMG-7231.gif



I don’t necessarily think the players have a personal problem with him, but you can pull up a number of YouTube videos over the last couple months with fans and observers pointing out time and time again that he gets open and nobody seems to notice. I actually think it’s just the players being raised differently. When you and I were kids, if the big ran the floor and threw his hand up, you were looking for him. That’s where a lot of people got their easy baskets.

I remember shaq talking shit about Dwight Howard. Saying he doesn’t even need to be more skilled. He just needs to run the floor hard and duck inside and demand the ball. Victor is surprisingly good off the ball. I’ve seen him eat people up and cut to the basket and his guards are just dribbling like they don’t see it.

I figure it will be ironed out in time because they have to be watching film as well. And I have no indication they are just freezing him out. He gets his shots. He just doesn’t get the easy ones he should a lot of the time and it’s weird. Hes such a big athletic target and passes stay a second late or don’t come at all.

Probably just early chemistry issues but I swear every opposing commentator in the league laughs at the spurs when I’m watching league pass when they miss him over and over. But all the color guys are old players who are used to always looking for that guy.

I won’t even say they need to run more offense through him. But anybody open should get the ball to dunk it. It just seems like somehow he gets overlooked.



Pop is obviously aware of this so it is either intentional on his part or he isn't trying to correct it. There is no other way to look at it. There is no chance that he is trying to correct it and the players are just ignoring him.

I am speculating on his motivation but i dont think i am reaching. Pop knows they aren't winning anything this year and there was an uncomfortably bright spotlight on Wemby coming into the season. I bet Pop is secretly happy that Chet is playing so well and getting to much attention.

[Im Still Ballin]

Victor Wembanyama open three-point shots (closest defender 4+ feet away):

- 29.3% 3PT on 4.1 attempts per game (1.2 3PM/4.1 3PA)

Chet Holmgren open three-point shots (closest defender 4+ feet away):

- 38.5% 3PT on 3.9 attempts per game (1.5 3PM/3.9 3PA)

To build onto this:

Victor Wembanyama on catch-and-shoot threes:

- 24.7% 3PT (0.8 3PM/3.2 3PA)

Chet Holmgren on catch-and-shoot threes:

- 42.4% 3PT (1.5 3PM/3.5 3PA)

[Kblaze8855]

Pop is obviously aware of this so it is either intentional on his part or he isn't trying to correct it. There is no other way to look at it. There is no chance that he is trying to correct it and the players are just ignoring him.

I am speculating on his motivation but i dont think i am reaching. Pop knows they aren't winning anything this year and there was an uncomfortably bright spotlight on Wemby coming into the season. I bet Pop is secretly happy that Chet is playing so well and getting to much attention.



Can you correct being an idiot who doesn’t understand basketball?

I’d like to think it can’t be that but…there are players who just never get it.

I could see Pop not wanting to make anyone special in the eyes of the team and treat everyone the same…but at the same time it has to annoy him.

I’ll just wait to see if it continues all year. I don’t know if anyone is stupid enough to not make that adjustment if you’re having it shown in film sessions.

[Im Still Ballin]

The one area Victor looks alright at on the perimeter is pullup three-point shooting. Although it's a very small sample size, here's what his numbers look like:

Victor Wembanyama pullup three-point shooting:

- 33.3% 3PT (0.5 3PM/1.6 3PA)

Chet doesn't take any so there's no comparison there at present. The best pullup three-point shooters are around that 37-40% on 5-7 attempts per game. I have no idea how Victor is going to develop. Lu Dort and Scottie Barnes have both become great three-point shooters. Hard to predict.

[tontoz]

Some of the guys not passing Wemby the ball probably won't be there long. That is my guess. I think Pop notices it, isn't saying anything and will handle it through trades/free agency.

Pop is old school and i think he is perfectly comfortable with Wemby getting frustrated as a rookie.

[Xiao Yao You]

Have you ever been ejected? If so, did you yell "can't quit me!" on the way out?

never played with RR3 and no I was never ejected. Fouled out maybe?

[90sgoat]

I don’t think it’s something they set out to do but it happens a curious number of times. I will just bounce around through league pass when I have nothing to do and the number of times I’ve seen something like this is head scratching:
https://i.ibb.co/f9kbVX4/IMG-7231.gif


This is Porzingis pt 2 all over again.

A unicorn euro on a bad tanking team with selfish teammates lacking a point guard.

Scrubs playing for their contracts and being racist against the euro.

Pop is going to ruin Wemby like Knicks ruined Porzingis.

Spurs need to step in and trade away everyone but their backup point guard. That goes for Keldon Johnson, Zochan and Vassel. Those players being at Spurs make no sense what so ever. I think the truth is that Pop has been exposed after he didn't have his high IQ euros and Duncan anymore.

Keep the role players and Devonte Graham, get some solid vets and picks in return that fit his timeline (think mid 20s).

You need to do what Mavs did with Luka, not what Knicks did with KP.

[Airupthere]

This is Porzingis pt 2 all over again.

A unicorn euro on a bad tanking team with selfish teammates lacking a point guard.

Scrubs playing for their contracts and being racist against the euro.

Pop is going to ruin Wemby like Knicks ruined Porzingis.

Spurs need to step in and trade away everyone but their backup point guard. That goes for Keldon Johnson, Zochan and Vassel. Those players being at Spurs make no sense what so ever. I think the truth is that Pop has been exposed after he didn't have his high IQ euros and Duncan anymore.

Keep the role players and Devonte Graham, get some solid vets and picks in return that fit his timeline (think mid 20s).

You need to do what Mavs did with Luka, not what Knicks did with KP.

I would like to watch Wemby play but I can't stand watching the Spurs playing mostly like in the gif.

[90sgoat]

I would like to watch Wemby play but I can't stand watching the Spurs playing mostly like in the gif.

Yeah, it's amateur hour of the worst kind.

Pop probably thinks he is clever tanking like this, but this is how you chase Wemby away.

[tontoz]

Yeah, it's amateur hour of the worst kind.

Pop probably thinks he is clever tanking like this, but this is how you chase Wemby away.

He's not going anywhere. After this year he has 3 years left and is then a restricted free agent.

[SATAN]

He's not even a real rookie.........

[SATAN]

Have you ever been ejected? If so, did you yell "can't quit me!" on the way out?

:roll:

[GOBB]

No he’s not having the best rookie season since Duncan. And I don’t know why the NBA doesn’t do away with the rookie eligibility rule. Chet shouldn’t even be considered for the award. ROY should be reserved for that years draft class. Guy has a whole year experience over these rookies.

[FultzNationRISE]

No he’s not having the best rookie season since Duncan. And I don’t know why the NBA doesn’t do away with the rookie eligibility rule. Chet shouldn’t even be considered for the award. ROY should be reserved for that years draft class. Guy has a whole year experience over these rookies.

I agree with this and personally I dont think even Yama should be eligible as he's been a professional player for years.

IMO it should strictly be first year pros who are eligible for the award. Altho I'm sure the NBA doesnt wanna shut out G-Leaguers from eligibility so maybe there could be some kind of exception for guys who were under 20 years old at the time the season started.

It just seems weird that in theory you could have some 27 year old Eurloeague MVP come over, and even sit out his first NBA season and just get acclimated to the league from the bench, and then put him in the rookie pool the next year with 19 year olds who are getting their first professional experience.

Altho tbh the award doesnt really matter for anything anyway so who really cares.

[Im Still Ballin]

The "not a true rookie" thing is a useless discussion to me. Duncan and many other great rookies came into the league at a later age due to extended college careers. This is Chet's rookie season; if you want to disqualify him then why not Duncan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, or Robinson? Etc...

Duncan was 21 years and 189 days old when he played his first official NBA game. Chet was 21 years and 177 days old. Twelve days younger. It's a stupid point to care about.

[SATAN]

What's college got to do with it?

Chet has already been in the NBA for a season prior to this one. He obviously had time to adjust to the league during that time. It's about more than numbers. I disagree that it's stupid to even point it out.

[Im Still Ballin]

Chet actually has lower percentage of two point FGs assisted than Wemby (64% vs 72%). It's the other way around for three pointers (98% vs 80%). That suggests that Chet is better at creating a better shot for himself. Eye test confirms that - for example the yesterday's game against LAC had Chet repeatedly put the ball on floor in iso against both big and small defenders and comfortably getting anything he wanted. Chet just has a tighter handle, better body control and better idea of what he wants to do.

The OKC offense doesn't actually do much to get Chet specifically good looks. SGA primarily looks for his own shot and so does JDub.

To add to this...

Chet Holmgren Isolation scoring:

- 0.9 isolation possessions used per game
- 1.22 points per possession (90.4th percentle)
- 64.7% eFG

Admittedly a small sample size, but it backs up what I've seen and what you've also seen. He is pretty good at creating for himself. For comparison, Shai does 1.14 points per possession on 5.0 isolation possessions used per game.

[Im Still Ballin]

What's college got to do with it?

Chet has already been in the NBA for a season prior to this one. He obviously had time to adjust to the league during that time. It's about more than numbers. I disagree that it's stupid to even point it out.

Adjust? WTF does that even mean? He was injured and shooting set shots like this:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSB0hf3osXdltok_CGjh-EAE8ZucBpLLFtP-w&usqp=CAU

He would've gotten more out of actually playing competitive basketball. There's no benefit to being injured.

[SATAN]

It's not like he never played against a bunch of great NBA players until this preseason started.

[Axe]

The "not a true rookie" thing is a useless discussion to me. Duncan and many other great rookies came into the league at a later age due to extended college careers. This is Chet's rookie season; if you want to disqualify him then why not Duncan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, or Robinson? Etc...

Duncan was 21 years and 189 days old when he played his first official NBA game. Chet was 21 years and 177 days old. Twelve days younger. It's a stupid point to care about.
Do the same thing apply for embiid as well? I mean his debut season was held back for at least a year due to injuries bt.

[Xiao Yao You]

Do the same thing apply for embiid as well? I mean his debut season was held back for at least a year due to injuries bt.

he didn't win ROTY :facepalm

[Axe]

Duh, never said he did. Was just wondering what could be considered as his rookie season. But probably not the year he was drafted into the league.

[Xiao Yao You]

Duh, never said he did. Was just wondering what could be considered as his rookie season. But probably not the year he was drafted into the league.

doesn't matter

[FultzNationRISE]

The "not a true rookie" thing is a useless discussion to me. Duncan and many other great rookies came into the league at a later age due to extended college careers. This is Chet's rookie season; if you want to disqualify him then why not Duncan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, or Robinson? Etc...

Duncan was 21 years and 189 days old when he played his first official NBA game. Chet was 21 years and 177 days old. Twelve days younger. It's a stupid point to care about.


That's a fair point but I would argue you learn a LOT about playing in the league just by virtue of being part of the team and seeing the whole process up close, being at nba practices, talking to the team vets, adapting to the schedule and so on.

I guess there really is no way to standardize it though. Everyone comes into the league at different ages and through different avenues. It feels like it should be an award just for first year pros, but I also understand the arguments against that.

[ArbitraryWater]

Id probably agree.


Hes just been so mature and polished.

Hes already contributing heavy to a winning team, hes clearly the 2nd best player.

[ImKobe]

Wembanyama is not close to the offensive player or scorer Chet is.

Chet is on a team with about 4 or so above average offensive guys. Being on such a good team is hurting his raw output. He’s consciously trying to not make mistakes and **** up the flow.

If he had the reins he’d probably be growing right now offensively. His growth is honestly being stunted if you just watch how that team functions.

Defensively it can be whatever but offensively Wembanyama is not close, he has no identity on offense yet.

Wemby is playing with the worst supporting cast in the league while Chet has a top 5 player in the league & solid role players. Chet actually has spacing around him and teammates who can give him the ball in his spots.

Idk if you've watched any of the Spurs games but Wemby is straight up getting ignored by his teammates when he has position for an easy 2, over & over again. It's not even a question of skill between the two, it's the quality that's surrounding them. Having good teammates that can also get you the ball helps your efficiency. Wemby has the better raw numbers but isn't efficient due to the quality of looks he's getting while Chet's making easy ass layups & open 3s off the catch all the time as a result of him being in OKC.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV3Of08-gaI


Chet could very well be a better player but he's in a much more favorable position to put up efficient scoring numbers. Like yes, he could put up more points on a team where he's the only scoring option, but the efficiency wouldn't be anywhere near the same. I will say that Chet looks more polished and is better at creating his own shot, but you can''t underestimate the quality of looks these 2 are getting. Night & day.

[Kblaze8855]

Some of the guys not passing Wemby the ball probably won't be there long. That is my guess. I think Pop notices it, isn't saying anything and will handle it through trades/free agency.

Pop is old school and i think he is perfectly comfortable with Wemby getting frustrated as a rookie.


Apparently it’s happening enough they get questions now. At least they acknowledge it





In addition, Devin Vassell admitted postgame that the team needs to find the rookie center more during games.

“Being a young team, we've got to be able to know each other's strengths. Wemby, at 7-5, we've got to see him," Vassell said to the media. "When he's down there and whether he's posting up or he's sealing early, we've got to see him."

[Im Still Ballin]

Wemby's efficiency sucks because he can't shoot and he's trying to play in a way he's not effective at. He's getting and taking more open (defender 4+ feet away) three-point shots than Chet. Victor's midrange numbers are horrible! He's a frighteningly terrible spot-up shooter.

Holmgren's shot quality is better because he is better at scoring almost everywhere on the court.

Better delivery inside would only account for a portion of the 12.6% difference in True Shooting Percentage. And this idea that Chet's getting a plethora of easy buckets that Victor isn't just isn't true. He's simply a better, more skilled scorer and it would show if they switched teams.

[Im Still Ballin]

ShotQuality.com has Victor taking 31% "good" possessions and 59% "bad" possessions. On the other hand, Chet is taking 38% "good" possessions and 41% "bad" possessions.

A good possession is defined as above the 66th percentile. A bad possession is defined as below the 33rd percentile.

[Kblaze8855]

Better delivery inside would only account for a portion of the 12.6% difference in True Shooting Percentage.



There is absolutely no combo of numbers to account for teammates having common sense. There is no way to measure the shots not taken to begin with. All you can do is make an assumption and extrapolate. Maybe base it on someone else or just flat out guess. Run someone else’s numbers in place of a few of his. But it’s flat out impossible to know. Not difficult. Literally impossible.

Not that I much care about the difference to begin with between two people in such different situations.

I don’t imagine you lead rookies in points, rebounds, blocks, and steals and don’t win ROY due to shooting percentages. It’s conceivable but I wouldn’t bet on it.

[Im Still Ballin]

There is absolutely no combo of numbers to account for teammates having common sense. There is no way to measure the shots not taken to begin with. All you can do is make an assumption and extrapolate. Maybe base it on someone else or just flat out guess. Run someone else’s numbers in place of a few of his. But it’s flat out impossible to know. Not difficult. Literally impossible.

Not that I much care about the difference to begin with between two people in such different situations.

You have to be realistic with those assumptions. What's better delivery to Victor worth? Four extra shots at the rim per game? Seems reasonable to me. Maybe that's excessive as a rookie? Perhaps in 3+ seasons when he adds more size, strength, and power.

4 shots within five feet x .706% FG = 2.8 FGM x 2 = 5.6 points + 1.18 points from free throws drawn (4 FGAs x .38 2PT FTr = 1.52 FTA / .774% FT = 1.18 points)

Bottom Line: roughly 6.8 extra points per game. Gets him up to 25.3 ppg and boosts his true shooting percentage roughly to 60% TS.

But at the end of the day, as long as Victor continues to take shots he's not good at, his efficiency will be stunted somewhat. Which is okay because you'd want him to take those shots to develop those skills. So that he can be flexible and have situational value.

Remove his three-point shooting from that hypothetical above and his numbers go to 21.1 ppg and 65.5% TS.


I don’t imagine you lead rookies in points, rebounds, blocks, and steals and don’t win ROY due to shooting percentages. It’s conceivable but I wouldn’t bet on it.

Rookie of The Year is just an award. This thread is about impact on the game right now. Media narratives sway voters as you know and have said many times. I just think Chet is too skilled and well-rounded for Victor to match his impact right now. Regardless of circumstance.

Chet would take advantage of the 4+ open threes Wemby gets a game and shoot 38.5% 3PT on them. His tighter handle and on-ball scoring package would make him a better scoring threat. The subpar interior delivery would be less of a concern for him than it would be for Victor.

[Kblaze8855]

What's better delivery to Victor worth?




Thats exactly the issue. There is no answer. We just pull an answer out of the air that feels right. You can’t quantify idiocy.

[Im Still Ballin]

Thats exactly the issue. There is no answer. We just pull an answer out of the air that feels right. You can’t quantify idiocy.

You just described every thread you make. Instead of at least proving some semblance of an argument based on data, you do nothing. Great contribution as always.

[tontoz]

So are Wemby's teammates the reason he shoots 10% worse from the foul line? :confusedshrug:

You can blame his teammates for not hitting him for open looks. You can't blame them for Wemby missing routine jumpers that nobody can contest due to his height. His jumper has sucked, especially relative to Chet.

[Kblaze8855]

So even being aware that I normally don’t care about the “data” you’re focused on you still expect me to be evaluating data that…..does not even exist?

Im to pull a few numbers that don’t exist out of my ass to judge a situation by numbers I don’t care about even in the real world?

[Im Still Ballin]

I swear Kblaze has a serious problem with coming into a thread, making an assumption based on zero data, then criticizing someone doing the same but with actual data and then spouts the same platitude again and again.

"I swear Mark Jackson on the Spurs right now would have Wemby doing about 24 points a game." - Kblaze

I break down shooting percentages, free-throw rates and apparently I'm the one spouting idiocy. Sigh.

[Kblaze8855]

I swear Kblaze has a serious problem with coming into a thread, making an assumption based on zero data, then criticizing someone doing the same but with actual data.

"I swear Mark Jackson on the Spurs right now would have Wemby doing about 24 points a game." - Kblaze

I break down shooting percentages, free-throw rates and apparently I'm the one spouting idiocy. Sigh.



If I thought you were being an idiot rest assured I’d say so.

Im not sure I’ve ever said anything like that to or about you.

I said I’m not concerned with the data you’re posting because I’m not. I’ve been largely ignoring such things on here for a long long time but I didn’t tell you to do the same.

I said I can’t quantify the impact of idiocy. Meaning…players around him.

I assume you thought I meant you.

[tontoz]

I swear Kblaze has a serious problem with coming into a thread, making an assumption based on zero data, then criticizing someone doing the same but with actual data and then spouts the same platitude again and again.

"I swear Mark Jackson on the Spurs right now would have Wemby doing about 24 points a game." - Kblaze

I break down shooting percentages, free-throw rates and apparently I'm the one spouting idiocy. Sigh.



Kblaze loves to defend guys who miss a lot of shots.

[Im Still Ballin]

If I thought you were being an idiot rest assured I’d say so.

Im not sure I’ve ever said anything like that to or about you.

I said I’m not concerned with the data you’re posting because I’m not. I’ve been largely ignoring such things on here for a long long time but I didn’t tell you to do the same.

I said I can’t quantify the impact of idiocy. Meaning…players around him.

I assume you thought I meant you.

If you do the bare minimum, which is what you always do, then don't act superior to those that actually put in effort to their arguments. You're not some higher authority bro. I swear your ego is bigger than anybody on this forum.

[1987_Lakers]

Wembanyama is not close to the offensive player or scorer Chet is.

Chet is on a team with about 4 or so above average offensive guys. Being on such a good team is hurting his raw output. He’s consciously trying to not make mistakes and **** up the flow.

If he had the reins he’d probably be growing right now offensively. His growth is honestly being stunted if you just watch how that team functions.

Defensively it can be whatever but offensively Wembanyama is not close, he has no identity on offense yet.

This single post right here made more sense than all of Kblaze's ramblings in this thread so far.

[Kblaze8855]

If you do the bare minimum, which is what you always do, then don't act superior to those that actually put in effort to their arguments. You're not some higher authority bro. I swear your ego is bigger than anybody on this forum.


Nothing I’ve said suggests I’m a “higher authority”. You’re literally arguing with my contention that I can’t speak with authority about a hypothetical. The difference between me and numbers obsessed types is my willingness to just say I don’t know. It runs counter to the idea that you can decide things with numbers…which can be known. Those evaluations are the easiest thing to do. Especially for people who need to feel right and like they can prove it.

I have little need to do that. You thinking I’m wrong means virtually nothing to me. I’m here to talk about it not fight with you. If I wanted to be verifiably right in the eyes of you people I know are largely stat focused I’d use them a lot more.

You don’t think I have Google? Statmuse?

I don’t choose to to do that. It’s generally boring. If it entertains you….you do it.

[tontoz]

I see Chet making moves like this a lot.


https://youtu.be/g1W6PX_0Hew?feature=shared


https://youtu.be/408jK5MYoF8?feature=shared

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze loves to defend guys who miss a lot of shots.

Off the top of my head every one of the people you’re talking about is among the greatest players of all time(with the obvious exception of Wemby at the start of his career). You’re talking about like…Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, AI, Bill Russell and so on. Derrick Rose I believe. MVPs and hall of famers.

I don’t even know who else you could mean. Kobe?

[Kblaze8855]

This single post right here made more sense than all of Kblaze's ramblings in this thread so far.


Yes. The idea that someone would make more shots if you would pass them the ball running uncontested to the basket. Real reach there. Just crazy rantings from the beyond.

[tontoz]

Off the top of my head every one of the people you’re talking about is among the greatest players of all time(with the obvious exception of Wemby at the start of his career). You’re talking about like…Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, AI, Bill Russell and so on. Derrick Rose I believe. MVPs and hall of famers.

I don’t even know who else you could mean. Kobe?


It's just a recurring theme. Putting the ball in the basket is a pretty fundamental part of basketball and when comparing players it has to be taken into account.

But you always try to excuse guys who miss a lot of shots. You will point to their role on the team or their intangibles or their era or whatever as an excuse for missed shots. It cant possibly be that they just werent good shooters or took bad shots.

[tontoz]

Yes. The idea that someone would make more shots if you would pass them the ball running uncontested to the basket. Real reach there. Just crazy rantings from the beyond.

That is a separate argument. Gobert could make those same shots. So what?

His teammates missing him for easy looks inside doesn't change the fact that his jumper has been bad. The two aren't related.

[Kblaze8855]

It's just a recurring theme. Putting the ball in the basket is a pretty fundamental part of basketball and when comparing players it has to be taken into account.

But you always try to excuse guys who miss a lot of shots. You will point to their role on the team or their intangibles or their era or whatever as an excuse for missed shots. It cant possibly be that they just werent good shooters or took bad shots.


As I said…you’re literally talking about my “defense” of some of the best players ever. Making it fairly obvious that whatever your issues with their percentages they must not have been that significant. Which is suspect was usually my point.

I can’t think of anyone we talked about who would be an exception.

Wait….Abdul Rauf. I feel like you took issue with something I posted years ago when Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr, Dale Ellis and some others were praising him as a great shooter.

You didn’t feel he was a great shooter because of the percentages. I’m nearly sure that happened.

[Im Still Ballin]

Nothing I’ve said suggests I’m a “higher authority”. You’re literally arguing with my contention that I can’t speak with authority about a hypothetical. The difference between me and numbers obsessed types is my willingness to just say I don’t know. It runs counter to the idea that you can decide things with numbers…which can be known. Those evaluations are the easiest thing to do. Especially for people who need to feel right and like they can prove it.

I have little need to do that. You thinking I’m wrong means virtually nothing to me. I’m here to talk about it not fight with you. If I wanted to be verifiably right in the eyes of you people I know are largely stat focused I’d use them a lot more.

You don’t think I have Google? Statmuse?

I don’t choose to to do that. It’s generally boring. If it entertains you….you do it.

A strawman then straight into the usual platitudes. Nice.

This forum is like 90% hypotheticals and speculation. There's no need to continually bring up an obvious truth like you're some wise sage. Yes, we know you can't prove one player is better than another, or how they would perform if they switched teams. But it's fun to do and provides for good discussion while allowing those involved a chance to thrall their basketball acumen.

The very least we can do is provide some basis of evidence for these hypotheticals and projections.

[Kblaze8855]

That is a separate argument. Gobert could make those same shots. So what?

His teammates missing him for easy looks inside doesn't change the fact that his jumper has been bad. The two aren't related.


So why are you talking about them together with me when I don’t *think* I’ve ever made any comment on if Wemby is a shooter or not? They are indeed different issues. This is me 11 minutes after tipoff of the first game I ever saw him play:




And it looks like nobody on his team can even throw a proper entry pass. Put a point guard from 30 years ago out there and he will be feasting. He senses the mismatch pretty quick in the post but they don’t find him quickly or put the passes where you should for his size.




Ive noticed it from minute one. I mentioned it.

It’s absolutely a factor in shooting numbers but I can’t say how much of one. I’d be pulling that number out of my ass.

How you take that to be a comment on whatever jumpers he’s missing I can’t say.

[tontoz]

As I said…you’re literally talking about my “defense” of some of the best players ever. Making it fairly obvious that whatever your issues with their percentages they must not have been that significant. Which is suspect was usually my point.

I can’t think of anyone we talked about who would be an exception.

Wait….Abdul Rauf. I feel like you took issue with something I posted years ago when Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr, Dale Ellis and some others were praising him as a great shooter.

You didn’t feel he was a great shooter because of the percentages. I’m nearly sure that happened.

Rauf was a great foul shooter. He led the league a couple of times. But he never shot over 40% from 3. He had maybe 2 or 3 seasons shooting them well in his career. He had 6 seasons shooting under 36% from 3. That isn't an opinion that is a fact. For his career he shot 35.4% from 3.

In terms of style he resembled Steph. In terms of results not in the same zip code.

Getting back to Wemby getting a few extra easy looks inside per game doesn't change the fact that his jumper has been bad.

[tontoz]

So why are you talking about them together with me when I don’t *think* I’ve ever made any comment on if Wemby is a shooter or not? They are indeed different issues. This is me 11 minutes after tipoff of the first game I ever saw him play:





Ive noticed it from minute one. I mentioned it.

It’s absolutely a factor in shooting numbers but I can’t say how much of one. I’d be pulling that number out of my ass.

How you take that to be a comment on whatever jumpers he’s missing I can’t say.



After seeing you dog Gobert for years because all he can do is roll and dunk i find it odd that you are making such a big deal about Wemby not getting more opportunities that Gobert could handle. It isn't a big deal. That can be easily remedied and won't really change his ability as a player.

[Kblaze8855]

A strawman then straight into the usual platitudes. Nice.

This forum is like 90% hypotheticals and speculation. There's no need to continually bring up an obvious truth like you're some wise sage. Yes, we know you can't prove one player is better than another, or how they would perform if they switched teams. But it's fun to do and provides for good discussion while allowing those involved a chance to thrall their basketball acumen.

The very least we can do is provide some basis of evidence for these hypotheticals and projections.


You types always posting about straw men and logical fallacies like this is debate team prep thinking I’m the one trying to look wise and always right is amazing to me. The last time ranking them came up this is what I said:





Wemby, Chet, and Sengun I’m not informed enough about yet. I’ve seen them all play but not enough to be confident in a ranking right now. Not gonna just throw them somewhere for the sake of a listing.





I might well lead the league in “I don’t have enough information” and “I don’t know” and people think…I think…I know everything.

In reality it’s people taking my suggestion that I don’t know to be a criticism of their takes suggesting they do. Like me saying “I don’t know about that….” means they aren’t allowed to suggest they do know.


I spend half my time on here in “I see what you’re saying but….” arguments with people who act like everything they say is fact.

And then they say I’m talking down.

Im talking down to people who insist they know the truth and I’m wrong to tacitly question them in the process of acknowledging my own fallibility.

The internet is a funny place.

[tontoz]

I wouldn’t say he needs to be fed the ball to score because he can and often does create his own shot from scratch. But the efficiency argument to me is lacking when I watch so many of their games, and he is consistently working to get what should be easy baskets, but not getting them. The reason somebody shoots 50% is because they usually make all of the easy ones and less than half of the hard ones. You take away one or two easy ones a game, and there’s a drastic impact on efficiency, that matters for the kind of person who doesn’t look at anything else.


If you watch so many of his games then you should notice that a big reason his efficiency is lacking is that his jumper is lacking. I find it strange that you don't even mention this.

[Kblaze8855]

After seeing you dog Gobert for years because all he can do is roll and dunk i find it odd that you are making such a big deal about Wemby not getting more opportunities that Gobert could handle. It isn't a big deal. That can be easily remedied and won't really change his ability as a player.


I’ve never dogged Gobert in the first place. I’ve called him Mutombo for years. Who is in the hall of fame. His biggest fan taking issue with that comparison doesn’t make it a criticism. And everyone should get the ball to dunk it uncontested. How you even tie those two things together is beyond me.

[Kblaze8855]

If you watch so many of his games then you should notice that a big reason his efficiency is lacking is that his jumper is lacking. I find it strange that you don't even mention this.

because even good shooters, miss most of their jumpers. It’s just a matter of the margin. As I said people who make half their shots only do so, because they make virtually all of the easy ones while missing most of the jumpers and difficult ones. People you and I would agree can shoot will still miss most of their jumpers. Especially mid range ones. It’s not a given. Getting wide open for dunks at 7 foot four is pretty much a given. And considering the incredible difference making or missing one shot a game has on percentages I would say it’s obviously a factor.


Not the only factor. But a factor. One I and a huge number of people have noticed. His teammate literally had to comment on it last night. It’s such a consistent theme when people evaluate his game I don’t know why it’s even being questioned.

[tontoz]

I’ve never dogged Gobert in the first place. I’ve called him Mutombo for years. Who is in the hall of fame. His biggest fan taking issue with that comparison doesn’t make it a criticism. And everyone should get the ball to dunk it uncontested. How you even tie those two things together is beyond me.

I have seen you argue about Goberts offensive value for years due to his lack of skills with the ball, and i agree at least partially.

But how can you possibly claim to be watching so many of Wemby's games and say the efficiency argument is lacking? He's taking 5 3s per game shooting 28%. That has nothing to do with his teammates and strangely never gets mentioned in your "analysis".

[Im Still Ballin]

I wondered how many shots Chet and Wemby were getting at the rim so I looked it up.

It appears Wemby gets close to one extra shot within 5 feet per game and is more assisted. Based on game footage, with adequate passers, Wemby should be getting more of these shots. How many? Hard to say; would be interesting to go back and watch all 25 games. But the hypothetical at least provides a *somewhat* plausible look at how his numbers could look. Which is better than nothing. And puts his current numbers into better context.

The more I break things down the more I feel confident Chet would be putting up similar numbers in San Antonio.

Chet Holmgren shots within 5 feet:

- 85/119
- 71.4% FG
- 65.9% assisted
- 4.6 attempts per game

Victor Wembanyama shots within 5 feet:

- 96/136
- 70.6% FG
- 74% assisted
- 5.4 attempts per game

[Kblaze8855]

I have seen you argue about Goberts offensive value for years due to his lack of skills with the ball, and i agree at least partially.

But how can you possibly claim to be watching so many of Wemby's games and say the efficiency argument is lacking? He's taking 5 3s per game shooting 28%. That has nothing to do with his teammates and strangely never gets mentioned in your "analysis".

I’ve talked about his offensive value relative to what it’s said to be by his biggest fan who calls setting screens carrying an offense. I’ve pointed out the fact that the reason the people at the top of the efg% are all dunkers with low skill is because being skilled reduces the efficiency of such players because they would be expected to do more than finish dunks if they could play the entire game. That has nothing to do with the fact you should give open cutters the ball.


And Of course if someone doesn’t…it makes you shoot worse. It’s a factor that seems hard to ignore. As I said I expect missed jumpers. The made easy ones help make up for it. How much? I’ve admitted it’s impossible to know. Which is also a problem I see.

[tontoz]

I’ve talked about his offensive value relative to what it’s said to be by his biggest fan who calls setting screens carrying an offense. I’ve pointed out the fact that the reason the people at the top of the efg% are all dunkers with low skill is because being skilled reduces the efficiency of such players because they would be expected to do more than finish dunks if they could play the entire game. That has nothing to do with the fact you should give open cutters the ball.


And Of course if someone doesn’t…it makes you shoot worse. It’s a factor that seems hard to ignore. As I said I expect missed jumpers. The made easy ones help make up for it. How much? I’ve admitted it’s impossible to know. Which is also a problem I see.


Let me clue you in on a little secret. If you can see that Wemby's teammates aren't passing it to him when he is open inside, then the other teams can see it too. They know his teammates have tunnel vision. If they suddenly started passing the ball to him for those easy looks do you really think the defense won't adjust? :lol

I haven't looked it up but i am pretty confident that Wemby is the worst volume 3 pt shooter in the league. Can't blame that on his teammates.

[Im Still Ballin]

I wondered how many shots Chet and Wemby were getting at the rim so I looked it up.

It appears Wemby gets close to one extra shot within 5 feet per game and is more assisted. Based on game footage, with adequate passers, Wemby should be getting more of these shots. How many? Hard to say; would be interesting to go back and watch all 25 games. But the hypothetical at least provides a *somewhat* plausible look at how his numbers could look. Which is better than nothing. And puts his current numbers into better context.

The more I break things down the more I feel confident Chet would be putting up similar numbers in San Antonio.

Chet Holmgren shots within 5 feet:

- 85/119
- 71.4% FG
- 65.9% assisted
- 4.6 attempts per game

Victor Wembanyama shots within 5 feet:

- 96/136
- 70.6% FG
- 74% assisted
- 5.4 attempts per game

To build on this, here are Anthony Davis' numbers. He's the player I think Wemby most resembles in skill set. He gets about 3-4 more shots at the rim. I can't think of a more premier rolling, cutting, and slashing big that isn't Giannis and fits Wemby's game. Most apt comparison.

Anthony Davis shots within 5 feet:

- 162/244
- 66.4% FG
- 67.9% assisted
- 9.04 attempts per game

[Trollsmasher]

People are really just greatly overrating those supposed missed reads by Wembanyama's teammates in an effort to make excuses to justify their preseason priors of Wembanyama as a runaway ROTY and future GOAT.

There's really isn't that many of them per game. I'd be surprised if the whole season averaged to more than 1 truly egregious miss per game. And this number wouldn't be much lower for other teams/players because it's really such a small part of the overall picture. It's just that nobody bothers to make compilations of other players getting ignored because it's just a part of the game.

[Kblaze8855]

Let me clue you in on a little secret. If you can see that Wemby's teammates aren't passing it to him when he is open inside, then the other teams can see it too. They know his teammates have tunnel vision. If they suddenly started passing the ball to him for those easy looks do you really think the defense won't adjust? :lol

I haven't looked it up but i am pretty confident that Wemby is the worst volume 3 pt shooter in the league. Can't blame that on his teammates.


I would say back cuts on lazy defense, running the floor harder than the other bigs, and having consistently good positioning is hard to just…adjust to. The players I recall being good at it never really have that taken away. But it does depend on who you play with. Kareem talked about it while explaining Oscar as his pick for goat PG





There is an exact moment when a center, working hard in the pivot for a glimmer of an advantage, has the position he needs for a score. You’ve run the length of the court, established your ground, defended it against the hands, forearms, elbows, trunks, and knees of another two-hunted-and-fifty-pound zealot who is slapping and bumping and shoving to move you off your high ground. You need the ball right then. It’s like a moon shot: Fire too soon and you miss the orbit; fire too late and you’re out of range, but let fly when all signals are Go, and you should hit it right on.

Oscar had the knack of getting me the ball right at that place and time. Not too high, didn’t want to go up in the air and lose the ground you’ve fought for. Not too low, didn’t want to bend for the ball and create a scrabble down there. Never wanted to put the floor where some little guy could steal in and slap it away. Oscar knew all of this ,and his genius was, whether two men were in his face trying to prevent him from making the pass or in mine trying to prevent me from receiving it, in getting me the ball chest-high so I could turn and hook in one unbroken motion. No way not to score when Oscar was around. No wonder he has 2,500 more assists than anyone in NBA history.




It’s hard to quantify but it’s a considerable difference when you’re 8-16 instead of 7-15 or whatever. Not so much to me because if I watch you create that shot and not get it I’m not calling you worse. But the type who do little but count those numbers? It matters. Just can’t say how much.

This issue(separating ability from team) is exactly why I said I don’t have enough information yet to rank all these guys. I don’t know how much I need to see only that I’ve not seen enough. Shouldn’t be surprising when they are like 20 games in.

I’ll have much more concrete opinions when I’m not watching a clip or two and half a game here and there. I’m not gonna shit on nor overly praise anyone this quickly from flipping through league pass games.

[FultzNationRISE]

I swear Kblaze has a serious problem with coming into a thread, making an assumption based on zero data, then criticizing someone doing the same but with actual data and then spouts the same platitude again and again.

"I swear Mark Jackson on the Spurs right now would have Wemby doing about 24 points a game." - Kblaze

I break down shooting percentages, free-throw rates and apparently I'm the one spouting idiocy. Sigh.


He was referring to Yama’s teammates when he said you can’t quantify idiocy :lol

[Kblaze8855]

He was referring to Yama’s teammates when he said you can’t quantify idiocy :lol


That bugged me a bit.

Why would he think I’d call him stupid?

The people I think are stupid…I feel like I’m pretty clear with it. I don’t think I leave a lot of wiggle room.

You have to be pretty far gone before I’m just gonna call you an idiot for a basketball take you put some effort into. I might not agree but I just explain why and keep it moving. What about Chet being a good shooter could possibly prompt me to call someone an idiot?

[Xiao Yao You]

Off the top of my head every one of the people you’re talking about is among the greatest players of all time(with the obvious exception of Wemby at the start of his career). You’re talking about like…Isiah Thomas, Jason Kidd, AI, Bill Russell and so on. Derrick Rose I believe. MVPs and hall of famers.

I don’t even know who else you could mean. Kobe?

you forgot Baron Davis who got rolled by the legendary Carlos Boozer

[Xiao Yao You]

I’ve never dogged Gobert in the first place. I’ve called him Mutombo for years. Who is in the hall of fame. His biggest fan taking issue with that comparison doesn’t make it a criticism. And everyone should get the ball to dunk it uncontested. How you even tie those two things together is beyond me.

He's just Capela or Deandre. You've dogged him at every turn

[tontoz]

I would say back cuts on lazy defense, running the floor harder than the other bigs, and having consistently good positioning is hard to just…adjust to. The players I recall being good at it never really have that taken away. But it does depend on who you play with. Kareem talked about it while explaining Oscar as his pick for goat PG
.


Exactly. Oscar isnt walking through that door so Wemby will have to make the best of what he has. In order to do that he is going to have to start making some jumpers.

[Kblaze8855]

He's just Capela or Deandre. You've dogged him at every turn


Actually I’ve said those 3 are the kind of players to rank highly in the numbers you post and all for the same reason. Not being skilled on offense. Every actual ranking you would find I’ve said the same thing.

I just found what may be the first one by accident. I was looking to see if I ever argued with Tontoz about Baron and instead found you complaining about me comparing the Jazz to the 90s Hawks. Ended up talking about Mookie Blaylock and Baron somehow. I expected to find Tontoz in there but he wasn’t.

Long story short I’ve been saying he’s Hawks mutombo(more spry than Philly less spry than Denver) Mutombo for like 5 years.

[tontoz]

Actually I’ve said those 3 are the kind of players to rank highly in the numbers you post and all for the same reason. Not being skilled on offense. Every actual ranking you would find I’ve said the same thing.

I just found what may be the first one by accident. I was looking to see if I ever argued with Tontoz about Baron and instead found you complaining about me comparing the Jazz to the 90s Hawks. Ended up talking about Mookie Blaylock and Baron somehow. I expected to find Tontoz in there but he wasn’t.

Long story short I’ve been saying he’s Hawks mutombo(more spry than Philly less spry than Denver) Mutombo for like 5 years.


I would say Deke was better with the ball. You could actually post him up and expect decent results. He was pretty effective with his hook. He was pretty slow with the ball and always brought the ball down when he caught it but he was better than gobert.

But Deke wasn't as much of a rim runner as guys today. I would say capella is a better comp for gobert.

Defensively Deke and gobert are very similar.

[tpols]

So are Wemby's teammates the reason he shoots 10% worse from the foul line? :confusedshrug:

You can blame his teammates for not hitting him for open looks. You can't blame them for Wemby missing routine jumpers that nobody can contest due to his height. His jumper has sucked, especially relative to Chet.

AD has shot 85% from the line and you said he couldn't shoot.

[Xiao Yao You]

I would say Deke was better with the ball. You could actually post him up and expect decent results. He was pretty effective with his hook. He was pretty slow with the ball and always brought the ball down when he caught it but he was better than gobert.

But Deke wasn't as much of a rim runner as guys today. I would say capella is a better comp for gobert.

Defensively Deke and gobert are very similar.

that was when they posted guys though. When the most effective play is throwing it up to where only one guy can get it why would you post him up?

[tontoz]

AD has shot 85% from the line and you said he couldn't shoot.


First of all that was years ago that he shot 85%. How did he do the following 2years?

Secondly what does that have to do with this thread?

[tontoz]

that was when they posted guys though. When the most effective play is throwing it up to where only one guy can get it why would you post him up?



Because the lane wasn't as wide open then as it is now.

[Carbine]

Actually I’ve said those 3 are the kind of players to rank highly in the numbers you post and all for the same reason. Not being skilled on offense. Every actual ranking you would find I’ve said the same thing.

I just found what may be the first one by accident. I was looking to see if I ever argued with Tontoz about Baron and instead found you complaining about me comparing the Jazz to the 90s Hawks. Ended up talking about Mookie Blaylock and Baron somehow. I expected to find Tontoz in there but he wasn’t.

Long story short I’ve been saying he’s Hawks mutombo(more spry than Philly less spry than Denver) Mutombo for like 5 years.

Mutombo was more skilled than Gobert. Mutombo could actually score down low with that sweeping hook on post ups.

[Kblaze8855]

Mutombo also hit way more 14 foot baseline jumpers than he will be remembered for. But it’s the closest comparison I could think of historically.

[90sgoat]

Defensively Deke and gobert are very similar.

Deke was a lot more physical.

Some of that is how the game is played of course, but Deke was very athletic and very strong in a way that Gobert isn't.

Even today Toodys block numbers are quite low.

Deke has more a style like Embiid, when Embiid bothers to protect the rim.

[tontoz]

Mutombo also hit way more 14 foot baseline jumpers than he will be remembered for. But it’s the closest comparison I could think of historically.


I don't remember anyone really doing the volume of rim running that guys do today.

Yeah Deke had a decent J too. Everyone will remember him for his blocks and finger wag. That commercial with him in the grocery store was classic.

[tpols]

First of all that was years ago that he shot 85%. How did he do the following 2years?

Secondly what does that have to do with this thread?

He's literally shooting 82% right now this year which is super elite for a Center.

I just found it funny you used that argument here to rep Chet over Wemby but have said AD was a garbage shooter in other threads for a 7 footer.

[tontoz]

He's literally shooting 82% right now this year which is super elite for a Center.

I just found it funny you used that argument here to rep Chet over Wemby but have said AD was a garbage shooter in other threads for a 7 footer.


First of all you made the claim that ADs shooting was elite for a 7 footer which is laughable. Just last year he shot 26% from 3 and 37% on long 2s.

I have Chet over Wemby because he shoots 10% better on 2s, 3s and fts. RIF

[Xiao Yao You]

Deke was a lot more physical.

Some of that is how the game is played of course, but Deke was very athletic and very strong in a way that Gobert isn't.

Even today Toodys block numbers are quite low.

Deke has more a style like Embiid, when Embiid bothers to protect the rim.

Different game. Not as many blocks when everyone is shooting 3's. Gobert learned pretty early on that blocking shots isn't always the best play. Eaton blocked shots. He sucked

[SATAN]

First of all you made the claim that ADs shooting was elite for a 7 footer which is laughable. Just last year he shot 26% from 3 and 37% on long 2s.

I have Chet over Wemby because he shoots 10% better on 2s, 3s and fts. RIF

:oldlol:

:facepalm

[Axe]

First of all you made the claim that ADs shooting was elite for a 7 footer which is laughable. Just last year he shot 26% from 3 and 37% on long 2s.

I have Chet over Wemby because he shoots 10% better on 2s, 3s and fts. RIF
Damn, thurston getting bodybagged a lot these days.

[BarberSchool]

Who was the last ROY “sophomore rookie” ? Was somebody major, recently….

[ILLsmak]

Mutombo also hit way more 14 foot baseline jumpers than he will be remembered for. But it’s the closest comparison I could think of historically.

Deke was one of the few guys who could get 3 sec with the ball haha. I don't think his game would translate well.

MERRY CHRISTMAS KIDS.

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

Deke was one of the few guys who could get 3 sec with the ball haha. I don't think his game would translate well.

MERRY CHRISTMAS KIDS.

-Smak

rather he could guard in space or not would certainly be a question

[Kblaze8855]

He’d never have the ball for 3 seconds these days. Teams barely post up really good post scorers relative to his day. Hed atrophy as a scorer even faster than he did back then. I do wonder if he’d expand his range though.

He really did make a good number of jumpers. He wasn’t doing anything to get them but you leave him open? He was passable.

[ArbitraryWater]

Who was the last ROY “sophomore rookie” ? Was somebody major, recently….

Zion? Not sure

[BarberSchool]

Zion? Not sure
Yes, Zion but there was also another recently I can’t recall

[SATAN]

Ben Simmons

[BarberSchool]

Ben SimmonsBingo! Easy to see why we could forget that sad MF winning ROY lol

[GOBB]

The "not a true rookie" thing is a useless discussion to me. Duncan and many other great rookies came into the league at a later age due to extended college careers. This is Chet's rookie season; if you want to disqualify him then why not Duncan, Bird, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, or Robinson? Etc...

Duncan was 21 years and 189 days old when he played his first official NBA game. Chet was 21 years and 177 days old. Twelve days younger. It's a stupid point to care about.

What does age/playing college basketball have to do with it? Zero. He was no in a coma until the following season. He was not brain dead. Immobile. Heck at the exit interview he said his rehab was long over. It’s 2023 the recovery time isn’t years. The access of nba facilities, trainers (team and personal), game film and life in the nba is huge. Theres no adjustment period. Theres no rookie wall that you will hit at some point. He’s already ahead of that game and perfecting his craft. There was no pressure of having to perform, going thru slumps and confidence being shook. It was a waiting game while he simply worked on his craft. He was apart of the team. Wasn’t sitting at home live streaming video games til next summer. Watching live game action but most importantly it’s being dissected and discussed. The only argument is real live game action being missed. But he’s already acclimated to the nba way of life vs incoming rookies that have to go thru all he did. If no one sees this as an advantage you don’t understand professional basketball and its environment.

[Trollsmasher]

Torched Rudy yesterday after getting bodied in the first match up. Similar to the games with Denver, Chet seems to learn really fast.

[warriorfan]

I have always thought the second season “rookie” thing was a joke.

it’s not the biggest deal and it is just semantics but chet had a rookie season, he just didn’t get to play in it because he got injured

this wasn’t chet’s first year as an nba player, he was an nba player last year, just an injured one

i’m not throwing shade by any means, it doesn’t make him less of a player, he’s been great

the only thing it does i guess is take him out of our goofy hypotheticals like best rookie ever or who will win RoY type of banter. but at the end of the day who cares about that shit?

he’s young, good, and improving rapidly

[BarberSchool]

I have a feeling Chet will not win ROY and Wemby will, even if Chet clearly has better impact and numbers. Which remains to be seen, as Wemby’s defensive impact is already very very impressive. With flashes of his offensive future.

And I also have a strong feeling we will see Chet in an interview years from now, talking about not winning ROY giving him additional motivation to rise past his own ceiling.

[tpols]

People can talk semantics on ROY award, but this guy is gonna dominate the NBA in his prime. He's like a white Durant with better defense.

[ILLsmak]

He’d never have the ball for 3 seconds these days. Teams barely post up really good post scorers relative to his day. Hed atrophy as a scorer even faster than he did back then. I do wonder if he’d expand his range though.

He really did make a good number of jumpers. He wasn’t doing anything to get them but you leave him open? He was passable.

The J would be nice, but he'd be going up so slow SF's would be pounding his shit. He's just not a catch and finish guy imo.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

People can talk semantics on ROY award, but this guy is gonna dominate the NBA in his prime. He's like a white Durant with better defense.

haha. When did people forget how good Durant was? Remm when dude posted release points? KD is getting that off the dribble. Dude is the 15-22 40 pt guy. Neither this dude nor Wemby are nearly as good at getting their own shot and they are larger.

Edit: KD moving like 1.5 speed of these dudes.

-Smak

[GOBB]

People can talk semantics on ROY award, but this guy is gonna dominate the NBA in his prime. He's like a white Durant with better defense.

Yeah you’re not too bright.

[tpols]

Yeah you’re not too bright.


Egos aside...

You'll be a ghost by the time it comes true.

[tontoz]

From what I have seen Chet is more unselfish than Durant. He is pretty quick to give the ball up even when he could get off a decent shot.

[fsvr54]

Chet is THAT DUDE. Anyone hating is a total clown

[Carbine]

That's one of the most bizarre comparisons I've seen thrown around. You do realize Durant with better defense is as a basketball player.... Arguably the best ever.

Just wild to say things like that.

[GOBB]

Egos aside...

You'll be a ghost by the time it comes true.

1. And my name will forever be remember on this site unlike yours
2. Durant avg 30-8-4 at 21 same age Chet is today. Who isn’t even the best 21yr old in the nba
3. Keep doubling down on the dumb shyt you type

[GOBB]

From what I have seen Chet is more unselfish than Durant. He is pretty quick to give the ball up even when he could get off a decent shot.

Durant is one of the best scorers in NBA history. You have to be selfish to do that.

[tpols]

Being remembered "forever" on an off brand internet forum is like being the smartest kid in the special ed class. Either way, all of our egos will dissolve with time though.

[Carbine]

Durant is likely the most unselfish volume scorer this league has ever seen.

[1987_Lakers]

Durant is likely the most unselfish volume scorer this league has ever seen.

LeBron

[Im Still Ballin]

Some nice iso/self-creation plays from Chet tonight. I do see the similarities with KD as far as how they dribble and handle the ball. As well as relatively similar bodies; Holmgren being taller and longer. But Durant is more explosive whereas Chet is more physical and willing to embrace contact.

Despite his height and length, you could never picture KD playing center full-time. And Chet's too slow to be a swingman.

But I do see the similarities. But a more accurate player comparison would be "elements of KD" mixed with a mobile and skilled big man. KG? AD? I don't know. I've heard Bill Walton meets KD but I'm not sure what you all would think of that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMDa1kpOGrI&ab_channel=Cookies%26Kareem

[ILLsmak]

Being remembered "forever" on an off brand internet forum is like being the smartest kid in the special ed class. Either way, all of our egos will dissolve with time though.

I dunno. I'm not here to act like people are dummin, but I don't see it at all. You can say KD's game helped teach these guys some unblockable go to moves, but they don't play like him. They might have some isos where they look like him, but again, it's in slow speed.

Nothing wrong w/ them. I don't hate he or Wemby. I do think like whoever else said, you can't put a true rook v a 2nd year rook. There should be like a comeback player of the year and favor rooks, since people often miss whole seasons.

If you can watch a clip of KD saucing someone and then watch Chet. Here I got you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3u2de9EZSA rando clip, was gonna pull a j, but other than the 5 steps he took, the thing you gotta notice is how SLOW he was.

https://youtu.be/_ww7xkHOoRs?si=3lX7uo1O7CNFi5sn&t=124

Larry had a hard to block shot, but he would always use some guile to make sure he got it off, and sometimes people would be almost slapping his hands. KD has it to where if he's moving, he just pulls it, and if someone is right there he just pumps then shoots over him. If either of these guys who are legit 7 feet+ had KD's game they would be scoring 30ppg. EVERY...****ING...NIGHT.

Chet's career high is 36 lol. Let's just be real for a sec. But these big bigs having games SIMILAR to KD is indeed amazing and fun to watch. I'll leave it at that.

-Smak

[warriorfan]

I dunno. I'm not here to act like people are dummin, but I don't see it at all. You can say KD's game helped teach these guys some unblockable go to moves, but they don't play like him. They might have some isos where they look like him, but again, it's in slow speed.

Nothing wrong w/ them. I don't hate he or Wemby. I do think like whoever else said, you can't put a true rook v a 2nd year rook. There should be like a comeback player of the year and favor rooks, since people often miss whole seasons.

If you can watch a clip of KD saucing someone and then watch Chet. Here I got you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3u2de9EZSA rando clip, was gonna pull a j, but other than the 5 steps he took, the thing you gotta notice is how SLOW he was.

https://youtu.be/_ww7xkHOoRs?si=3lX7uo1O7CNFi5sn&t=124

Larry had a hard to block shot, but he would always use some guile to make sure he got it off, and sometimes people would be almost slapping his hands. KD has it to where if he's moving, he just pulls it, and if someone is right there he just pumps then shoots over him. If either of these guys who are legit 7 feet+ had KD's game they would be scoring 30ppg. EVERY...****ING...NIGHT.

Chet's career high is 36 lol. Let's just be real for a sec. But these big bigs having games SIMILAR to KD is indeed amazing and fun to watch. I'll leave it at that.

-Smak

KD’s rookie year he was a 20 ppg dude. He didn’t hit 40 until the last game of the season against the Warriors.

KD actually sucked his first few years even when he started scoring more. He was known as the biggest empty stats guy in the league. He legit was near dead last in every type of impact related on/off metric.

To be fair KD was 19 and Chet is 21 right now and those few years make a big difference especially with the super tall and lanky guys, but as of now Chet is way better at basketball than 19 year old rookie season Durant.

[SaltyMeatballs]

Give him ROTY already

[ILLsmak]

KD’s rookie year he was a 20 ppg dude. He didn’t hit 40 until the last game of the season against the Warriors.

KD actually sucked his first few years even when he started scoring more. He was known as the biggest empty stats guy in the league. He legit was near dead last in every type of impact related on/off metric.

To be fair KD was 19 and Chet is 21 right now and those few years make a big difference especially with the super tall and lanky guys, but as of now Chet is way better at basketball than 19 year old rookie season Durant.

remem KD couldn't hit 185 once at camp. If you saw him in college you knew he was it. I'm not even gonna fight people on whether KD is a hardcore winner because it's hard to say. He can do some game changing shit on defense as well, but he's mainly just a ridiculous scorer. I dunno how he fits into a team concept because he's been on a bunch of cancer teams or been injured. The one team he was on that was really built was, let me say it again, ONE OF THE GREATEST TEAMS OF ALL TIME. And he was the best player. He might have been operating in areas created by the game plan, but Wade in 06 was operating off of a stop Shaq game plan. Oh well. Kd is a ****ing monster. He might be a weird beta dude in life, but he is nu era superstar. Dude's on a different level. He's a top 'shot for the win' guy because I don't think he can get contested by normal players.

I just want dudes to respect KD for one and for two realize that Wemby and CH aren't as good as KD; it's impossible. It's trolling. Even if their stats were the same as KDs, the way they play is just not the same because they are WAY BIGGER than he is. Thus, they are slower. They will never have the handles / smooth J that KD does. They will never move like KD. They could def learn a lot from him, and I'm sure they did.

-Smak

[warriorfan]

remem KD couldn't hit 185 once at camp. If you saw him in college you knew he was it. I'm not even gonna fight people on whether KD is a hardcore winner because it's hard to say. He can do some game changing shit on defense as well, but he's mainly just a ridiculous scorer. I dunno how he fits into a team concept because he's been on a bunch of cancer teams or been injured. The one team he was on that was really built was, let me say it again, ONE OF THE GREATEST TEAMS OF ALL TIME. And he was the best player. He might have been operating in areas created by the game plan, but Wade in 06 was operating off of a stop Shaq game plan. Oh well. Kd is a ****ing monster. He might be a weird beta dude in life, but he is nu era superstar. Dude's on a different level. He's a top 'shot for the win' guy because I don't think he can get contested by normal players.

I just want dudes to respect KD for one and for two realize that Wemby and CH aren't as good as KD; it's impossible. It's trolling. Even if their stats were the same as KDs, the way they play is just not the same because they are WAY BIGGER than he is. Thus, they are slower. They will never have the handles / smooth J that KD does. They will never move like KD. They could def learn a lot from him, and I'm sure they did.

-Smak

I do remember that with the bench at the combine. Colin Cowherd (the worst sports talk guy ever) was talking shit and saying how he could do it and all this. lmao i’m not gonna even get into that shit, dude is next level clown

but anyways I agree the KD comparisons can be tiresome. but to be real we are gonna be seeing the same thing for along time. Whenever a new 7 foot super thin dude that can shoot and handle a bit comes along we are gonna hear KD comparisons. It’s just gonna happen because we are lazy and KD was so mold breaking he stands out, and now we have more and more very tall players developing these skill sets. So I think in 10+ years maybe when a player with this prototype becomes much more frequent it will die down. But until then all the slim 7 footers with some skills will be labeled next KD (even if it’s not the best take)

[90sgoat]

Happy for americans that you finally have a young talent that might be able to compete with the euro stars.

[ILLsmak]

I do remember that with the bench at the combine. Colin Cowherd (the worst sports talk guy ever) was talking shit and saying how he could do it and all this. lmao i’m not gonna even get into that shit, dude is next level clown

but anyways I agree the KD comparisons can be tiresome. but to be real we are gonna be seeing the same thing for along time. Whenever a new 7 foot super thin dude that can shoot and handle a bit comes along we are gonna hear KD comparisons. It’s just gonna happen because we are lazy and KD was so mold breaking he stands out, and now we have more and more very tall players developing these skill sets. So I think in 10+ years maybe when a player with this prototype becomes much more frequent it will die down. But until then all the slim 7 footers with some skills will be labeled next KD (even if it’s not the best take)

Potentially a guy like Wemby and Chet could be better than KD (prol won't, but eventually there might be one,) my main point is that their game would be different because KD plays like he's 7 feet, but he's not really. And once you get over 7 feet, esp when you are built like chet and wemby, every inch matters. Chet and KD have similar wingspans, but Wemby has like 8 foot ???

Like I said before, he's out there bricking now, but the way he shoots 3s, I am nearly positive he's gonna be money before long.

But KD is just a different type of player. I'm trying to help people understand that. Chet and Wemby would be better off starting from a triple threat/back to basket than a live dribble, IMO. KD is a legit SF, those guys aren't. They are def archetype breaking players and it's SIMILAR, but dudes be on that... 'better than... a mix of KD and bill walton, etc.' It's like woah... hold up.

-Smak

[tontoz]

Happy for americans that you finally have a young talent that might be able to compete with the euro stars.

:oldlol:

True the top 5 players in the league right now are foreigners.

[90sgoat]

:oldlol:

True the top 5 players in the league right now are foreigners.

Jokic
Luka
Giannis
Shai
Embiid

Tatum is boring, Zion is fat, Ja is dumb, AD is broken.

Americans should be grateful for Chet.

[Im Still Ballin]

Wemby has officially surpassed Chet in defensive EPM. Considering he's played 19/27 games out of position, I feel comfortable saying Victor is the more impactful defender. Not by a crazy amount or anything, but he's just got an extra 6 inches of wingspan and standing reach on Chet. Just a bigger defensive radius. So utterly disruptive.

Here's a comparison of defensive stats:

Victor Wembanyama:

- 3.2 blocks per game
- 1.3 steals per game
- 2.9 deflections per game
- Holds opponents -11.3% FG below average within 0-6 feet (3.4 defensive FGM / 6.8 defensive FGA)
- +3.5 defensive EPM (4th in the NBA)
- -7.3 defensive ON/OFF rating

Chet Holmgren:

- 2.7 blocks per game
- 0.8 steals per game
- 1.4 deflections per game
- Holds opponents -11.4% FG below average within 0-6 feet (4.9 defensive FGM / 9.7 defensive FGA)
- +3.4 defensive EPM (7th in the NBA)
- -1.3 defensive ON/OFF rating

[ShawkFactory]

Wemby has officially surpassed Chet in defensive EPM. Here's a comparison of defensive stats:

Victor Wembanyama:

- 3.2 blocks per game
- 1.3 steals per game
- 2.9 deflections per game
- Holds opponents -11.3% FG below average within 0-6 feet (3.4 defensive FGM / 6.8 defensive FGA)
- +3.5 defensive EPM (4th in the NBA)
- -7.3 defensive ON/OFF rating

Chet Holmgren:

- 2.7 blocks per game
- 0.8 steals per game
- 1.4 deflections per game
- Holds opponents -11.4% FG below average within 0-6 feet (4.9 defensive FGM / 9.7 defensive FGA)
- +3.4 defensive EPM (7th in the NBA)
- -1.3 defensive ON/OFF rating

:applause:

Chet had a play the other night though that would only show up on the stat sheet as a rebound, but he tipped one over Bamba's head and it was loose almost out of bounds. In an incredibly swift motion he changed directions, spider-man saved it from going out and threw a dart while falling to Jalen Williams I believe who scored easily in transition.

The handles and shooting for his size are cool and all but shit like that is what lets me know absolutely that he's for real.

It's kind of like Bird or Duncan (not actually comparing him to them yet obviously) in that the stats may not wow you on any given night but the little things they do win basketball games.

[Im Still Ballin]

:applause:

Chet had a play the other night though that would only show up on the stat sheet as a rebound, but he tipped one over Bamba's head and it was loose almost out of bounds. In an incredibly swift motion he changed directions, spider-man saved it from going out and threw a dart while falling to Jalen Williams I believe who scored easily in transition.

The handles and shooting for his size are cool and all but shit like that is what lets me know absolutely that he's for real.

It's kind of like Bird or Duncan (not actually comparing him to them yet obviously) in that the stats may not wow you on any given night but the little things they do win basketball games.

Yeah, Chet's intangibles and basketball IQ are off the chart. For sure.

[Im Still Ballin]

Some more Wemby stuff:

- Leading the league with 3.2 blocks per game
- Leading the league with 4.5 stocks (blocks and steals) per game
- Leading the league with 7.4 combined blocks, steals, and deflections per game
- 4.5 blocks per game since moving to the center positon (36 blocks in 8 games)
- 4.0 blocks per game over the last 15 games (60 blocks in 15 games)
- As a center, averaging 18.5 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 4.1 apg, 1.3 spg, 4.5 bpg, 2.9 topg on 54.7% TS (8 games)

[Trollsmasher]

Spurs have had an easy schedule and Wembanyama has also ducked the good opponents (Mavs, Bucks). No surprise his stats are shooting up a bit.

[Im Still Ballin]

Spurs have had an easy schedule and Wembanyama has also ducked the good opponents (Mavs, Bucks). No surprise his stats are shooting up a bit.

I still have Chet comfortably ahead of Victor as my ROY. His diverse and efficient offense is just too much of an advantage right now. The defense between them is negligible if even slightly in Wemby's favor. But I'm not going to be shocked if Victor is ahead of Chet in major media rankings for ROY. He has the hype machine behind him. And they love box score numbers.

[Xiao Yao You]

I still have Chet comfortably ahead of Victor as my ROY. His diverse and efficient offense is just too much of an advantage right now. The defense between them is negligible if even slightly in Wemby's favor. But I'm not going to be shocked if Victor is ahead of Chet in major media rankings for ROY. He has the hype machine behind him. And they love box score numbers.

you're putting him ahead defensively based on box score numbers. Blocks and steals tell you nothing about defensive impact.

Holds opponents FG below average within 0-6 feet and defensive EPM were close with Chet defending 3 more per game between 0-6 feet

[Im Still Ballin]

you're putting him ahead defensively based on box score numbers. Blocks and steals tell you nothing about defensive impact.

Holds opponents FG below average within 0-6 feet and defensive EPM were close with Chet defending 3 more per game between 0-6 feet

No, I'm putting Victor *slightly* ahead defensively based on my analysis. He's played 19/27 games out of position. Since moving to the center position, he's locked shit down. He's also not playing with any other good defensive talent, unlike Chet, who has Shai. Adjusted on/off play-by-play data somewhat accounts for this but the sample size is so small.

Those stats I listed for both Chet and Victor aren't all box score numbers. It includes play-by-play data and player-tracking data. Defensive EPM uses all three (box score, play-by-play data, player tracking) to provide a per 100 possession one-number impact metric.

[Trollsmasher]

ez efficient 24/6/3/2 against Jokic


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfuiMBcFHOw&ab_channel=ZHHighlights

This is a game where playing with SGA actually kinda hurts Chet personally since SGA aint a type to feed someone coming hot out of the gates (14 points in 6 minutes) and is instead always gonna go get his

[hold this L]

Their drafting is insane. He's such an amazing player. OKC being this good, this young with the amount of picks they have is absurd. If I'm them, I try to get Lauri in this team with a bunch of picks. Giddy, Chet, Shai, and Lauri and build defensive-minded players around that (with experience) and you get a contender by next season.

[Xiao Yao You]

Their drafting is insane. He's such an amazing player. OKC being this good, this young with the amount of picks they have is absurd. If I'm them, I try to get Lauri in this team with a bunch of picks. Giddy, Chet, Shai, and Lauri and build defensive-minded players around that (with experience) and you get a contender by next season.

have to give up some contracts to get Lauri too

[999Guy]

Their drafting is insane. He's such an amazing player. OKC being this good, this young with the amount of picks they have is absurd. If I'm them, I try to get Lauri in this team with a bunch of picks. Giddy, Chet, Shai, and Lauri and build defensive-minded players around that (with experience) and you get a contender by next season.
I was about to slam this idea but Lauri is on a really fair deal. I figured Chicago would throw him a max on principle. No wonder they traded him. Not high on him at all.

Either way Lauri is a really good role player as opposed to star. I don't think he moves the needle for this team past where it already is, which is contender, right now. Not next year.

OKC gets to be extremely picky in building this team. And the direction they go might be based on how this playoff run goes.


Or maybe they'll just try to get the best player possible at every turn. They're in unprecedented territory. I don't think I've seen the youngest team in the NBA, also be the best team in conference and also have the most draft capital in the league.

[Xiao Yao You]

I was about to slam this idea but Lauri is on a really fair deal. I figured Chicago would throw him a max on principle. No wonder they traded him. Not high on him at all.

Either way Lauri is a really good role player as opposed to star. I don't think he moves the needle for this team past where it already is, which is contender, right now. Not next year.

OKC gets to be extremely picky in building this team. And the direction they go might be based on how this playoff run goes.


Or maybe they'll just try to get the best player possible at every turn. They're in unprecedented territory. I don't think I've seen the youngest team in the NBA, also be the best team in conference and also have the most draft capital in the league.

Lauri is a star. Jazz also have more 1st round picks which is more draft capital

[Carbine]

They have to be ultra aggressive RIGHT NOW in adding a key piece before these guys on rookie deals expire in a couple years.

After that, we are talking about a max for Chet and a lot of money for Williams too. Putting that with what SGA and Dort are making, it's not like they can just add great players via trading those picks at that time. Great players cost money, and they have shown as a franchise they will not pay a lot of luxury tax.

[Im Still Ballin]

Both Chet and Wemby with solid games. Victor with another solid three-point shooting night. He's shot 35.0% 3PT on 4.4 attempts since moving to the center position. Chet's back up to 40% 3PT after a shooting slump.

Here's what Wemby has averaged since moving to the center position:

- 9 games
- 18.8 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 4.0 apg, 1.1 spg, 4.1 bpg, 2.9 topg (28.2 minutes per game)
- 46.7% FG, 35.0% 3PT, 74.4% FT, 55.5% TS


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpYRY_yaMLA&ab_channel=BasketballHighlights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG0FKxLanbk&ab_channel=NBARookieHighlights

[Trollsmasher]

For the month:

Chet: 17.4/7.7/2.4/0.4/3.5 with 1.5 TO on 55/39/78 shooting (64% TS)
Wembanyama: 18.1/11.4/3.7/1.1/3.8 with 2,8 TO on 45/33/73 shooting (54% TS) - also missed 4 games

[Manny98]

Watching OKC vs Celtics and im amazed how good Holmgren is, he can defend at an elite level at the rim and on the perimeter, he.shut Tatum down multiple possessions tonight. On offense he's shown shades of a young slightly less athletic Kevin Durant

He's a generational talent

[Im Still Ballin]

Strong performances for both bigs tonight. Victor's strong three-point shooting from the center position continues. Small sample size or better shot quality?

[Axe]

Chet with a shet name but one with a good potential.

[Im Still Ballin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSJ-q03snA8&ab_channel=Cookies%26Kareem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwsOZTIpD0g&pp=ygURdmljdG9yIHdlbWJhbnlhbWE%3D

[Street Hunger]

Chet honestly deserves Rookie of the year above Wemby if the season ended today.

[highwhey]

way better than wemby

[tpols]

Chet honestly deserves Rookie of the year above Wemby if the season ended today.


He does but it's interesting how circumstance comes into play. Chet would have a way tougher time playing by himself in San Antonio and Wemby with SGA setting him up on an already really good team would be spectacular.

[tontoz]

This month Wemby is averaging 25 ppg with a 62.6% TS. Not sure if he is actually shooting any better or just getting more bunnies inside.

This will probably be a close vote. Wemby's raw numbers will be better but Chet is more efficient in games that actually matter. It will just depend on what the voter values.

[SATAN]

Chet isn't even a real rookie...

[1987_Lakers]

This month Wemby is averaging 25 ppg with a 62.6% TS. Not sure if he is actually shooting any better or just getting more bunnies inside.

This will probably be a close vote. Wemby's raw numbers will be better but Chet is more efficient in games that actually matter. It will just depend on what the voter values.

Wemby’s for sure picked it up in the last month. He has looked great.

[Im Still Ballin]

This month Wemby is averaging 25 ppg with a 62.6% TS. Not sure if he is actually shooting any better or just getting more bunnies inside.

This will probably be a close vote. Wemby's raw numbers will be better but Chet is more efficient in games that actually matter. It will just depend on what the voter values.

A bit of both. He's shooting better from three playing the center position. I'm not sure if it's because of that or just him getting better and more confident over time. But most of the efficiency boost has been his team making a concerted effort to find him inside for rolls, lobs, cuts, dump-offs, post mismatches, and in transition.

[Xiao Yao You]

Andrew Lopez: Victor Wembanyama’s minutes restriction has been moved up to 30 minutes, Pop says (https://*********.com/social/). Pop said he “wasn’t sure” if total back-to-back restriction was lifted but did say there’s a possibility Wembanyama would be able to play in the back-to-back on Friday and Saturday this week.
– via Twitter _Andrew_Lopez (https://twitter.com/_Andrew_Lopez)

[StrongLurk]

Andrew Lopez: Victor Wembanyama’s minutes restriction has been moved up to 30 minutes, Pop says (https://*********.com/social/). Pop said he “wasn’t sure” if total back-to-back restriction was lifted but did say there’s a possibility Wembanyama would be able to play in the back-to-back on Friday and Saturday this week.
– via Twitter _Andrew_Lopez (https://twitter.com/_Andrew_Lopez)


Just give him 7 minutes per quarter this year. 28mpg. The Spurs are trash anyways and honestly, they want to be trash again next year.

The goal should be to limit Wemby's playtime, let him develop at a steady pace to grow more into his body, get him into his 3rd season healthy, and hopefully get two other young players in the top 5-10 picks of the next two drafts.

[ImKobe]

Funny how Wemby started putting up prime Duncan numbers after OP made this thread :roll: .. he just can't help but take Ls.

Averages after this thread was made:

Wemby: 24/9/3 3.6 blocks 52.1%FG/62.3%TS
Chet: 17/6/3 2.4 blocks 55.5%FG/63.1%TS

"Best rookie season since Tim Duncan"

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/25078120/stephen_a_smith_laughing.gif

[warriorfan]

Funny how Wemby started putting up prime Duncan numbers after OP made this thread :roll: .. he just can't help but take Ls.

Averages after this thread was made:

Wemby: 24/9/3 3.6 blocks 52.1%FG/62.3%TS
Chet: 17/6/3 2.4 blocks 55.5%FG/63.1%TS

"Best rookie season since Tim Duncan"

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/25078120/stephen_a_smith_laughing.gif

lmaoo

[basketballcat]

Tim Duncan made the All NBA FIRST team on his rookie season. Chet has zero chance of doing that. Rookie Duncan >>> Chet, and 99.9%+ of all rookies ever.

[Carbine]

Good thing the title is SINCE Duncan. It doesn't matter what Duncan did, it's irrelevant in this discussion.

[basketballcat]

Good thing the title is SINCE Duncan. It doesn't matter what Duncan did, it's irrelevant in this discussion.

Chet is very good, but he is not even the best rookie of this season. How is he having the best rookie season since Duncan? Chet isn't having a better rookie season than LeBron did, or Luka.

[Carbine]

If things continue this way for the next few months, Chet may not even be the best rookie this year let alone since Duncan.