If Lebron > MJ despite less rings & accolade, then KD can be > Lebron too

[3ba11]

I value teammate development, chemistry, strategic capacity/coaching and team ceiling/Finals record, so Durant will be over Lebron in my book after he wins his 3rd chip next year, and I might put him above Lebron already because the MJ/Lebron debate shows that ring count and accolades don't matter.

Durant helped develop Westbrick, which Lebron could never do, and Durant's skillset allowed the highest team ceiling possibly ever in 2017 and 2018 - a Luka or Lebron-style ball-dominator would've prevented the GOAT brand of ball and team celling that Durant's skillset allowed.. Durant enhances great supporting talent, while Lebron destroys teammates and needs more help... TLDR: KD > Lebron

[SATAN]

Horry>MJ

[Real Men Wear Green]

OP just proved that Durant is better than Jordan. Well done.

[3ba11]

OP just proved that Durant is better than Jordan. Well done.


If someone can use whatever subjective preference they like to put Lebron over Jordan despite far less rings or accolade, than it isn't wrong to put KD over Lebron for whatever reason anyone wants..

Lebron fans put him over Jordan because they think it's goat to need 7 games to win a Finals with a super-team no less, so I put KD over Lebron for my own reasons that happen to align with reality - KD's expert jumpshooting skillset could get 50 while the ball moves, so he was better at developing teammates, chemistry and strategic capacity/coaching, thereby yielding higher team ceilings/Finals records..

KD developed Westbrook and made the Finals with him, which Lebron could never do.. So he's better than Lebron, which PPG also reflects in a serious way.. KD can get a bucket, while Lebron must ponder and dribble before the stiff-arm.. No wonder this simpleton brand of ball couldn't win the East with homecourt and needed to form super-teams, yet still had perennial underdogs regardless of cast.

[ShawkFactory]

If someone can use whatever subjective preference they like to put Lebron over Jordan despite far less rings or accolade, than it isn't wrong to put KD over Lebron for whatever reason anyone wants..
.

You’ve proven time and time again that people can say anything using whatever reasoning they want. That’s like your thing.

[Axe]

OP just proved that Durant is better than Jordan. Well done.
Oof.

[3ba11]

You’ve proven time and time again that people can say anything using whatever reasoning they want. That’s like your thing.


I'm not the one saying that the loser is infact the winner and better player.. You are

I'm not the one trying to say that winning doesn't matter.. You are

I'm saying that winning matters and you're saying this is somehow unique reasoning or whatever.. It's sheer denial and delusion on your part. But carry on

[ShawkFactory]

I'm not the one saying that the loser is infact the winner and better player.. You are

I'm not the one trying to say that winning doesn't matter.. You are

I'm saying that winning matters and you're saying this is somehow unique reasoning or whatever

When?

[3ba11]

When?


You defend the general notion that Lebron could be GOAT despite half the winning or MVP frequency as MJ (aka far less winning and accolade)

Since you're using subjective preference to explain away Lebron's winning and accolade deficit, then I can do the same for Durant..

And I like my arguments, aka KD's goat jumpshooting, scoring and brand of ball or capacity for high team ceiling, etc, etc.

[ShawkFactory]

You defend the general notion that Lebron could be GOAT despite half the winning or MVP frequency as MJ (aka far less winning and accolade)

Since you're using subjective preference to explain away Lebron's winning and accolade deficit, then I can do the same for Durant..

And I like my arguments, aka KD's goat jumpshooting, scoring and brand of ball or capacity for high team ceiling, etc, etc.

When was that? I’ve been on here a little while now, sure you could find a quote or something.

[3ba11]

When was that? I’ve been on here a little while now, sure you could find a quote or something.


You argue against my claims that Lebron's skillset has bad chemistry, fits, teammate development, strategic capacity/coaching and therefore team ceilings/Finals records.. You argue against these claims.. And if you're right and Lebron's skillset infact allows great chemistry, teammate development, fits, and strategic capacity/coaching, then he's GOAT and simply got uniquely unlucky each time he lost..

So you do argue for Lebron as GOAT, by arguing against my claims and arguments that his weak brand of ball inhibits his winning

[ShawkFactory]

You argue against my claims that Lebron's skillset has bad chemistry, fits, teammate development, strategic capacity/coaching and therefore team ceilings/Finals records.. You argue against these claims.. And if you're right and Lebron's skillset infact allows great chemistry, teammate development, fits, and strategic capacity/coaching, then he's GOAT and simply got uniquely unlucky each time he lost..

So you do argue for Lebron as GOAT, by arguing against my claims and arguments.

:roll:

Jesus Christ

[And1AllDay]

8000 playofff pts
40,000 reg szn pts

/get worked

[Axe]

Peja > op

[NBAGOAT]

has luka or lebron ever been on a team as talented and well fitting as the 17-18 warriors? there is maybe 1-2 other star in nba history who has been on a team like that(83 sixers) so that claim is purely hypothetical. I personally dont think prime lebron would destroy curry, klay, and dray, the fit is really good better than on paper than it was with kd. I'm throwing out hypotheticals too but think warriors fans would agree

[nayte]

:roll:

Jesus Christ

:lol . Have you learnt now not to reply.

[ShawkFactory]

:lol . Have you learnt now not to reply.

Well yea I've always known that :lol

I don't mind responding occasionally. There are just sometimes where it gets so ridiculous that I simply can't continue.

[Johnny32]

KD at least scores more efficiently than lebron so he has that going for him. Jordan does nothing better than lebron. He scores less efficiently. He's a worse playmaker, a far worse and less versatile defender and rebounder. He has nothing left but nostalgia and bullshit.

[r15mohd]

per you own dumbfounded criteria of 10pts+ difference in 1st and 2nd option, KD could not break the barrier in either finals with GSW, therefore no he cannot be. unless you're now moving the goal posts to fit KD into that bubble lol

[LeGoat4Life]

KD is better than Lebron...

KD has accomplished a 2peat with full seasons, something Lebron will never accomplish with his super teams

[PeroAntic]

:roll:

Jesus Christ

Indeed:lol

[3ba11]

Well yea I've always known that :lol

I don't mind responding occasionally. There are just sometimes where it gets so ridiculous that I simply can't continue.


that's fair but I'm curious.. What do you feel is the reason that Lebron's teams never reached perennial favorite status or that top dynasty level in 20 years and were perennial underdogs?

Was it lack of help? What position on the floor did he not have an all-timer fill at some point?

Was it uniquely-bad circumstances every time he lost?... This seems far less likely than his skillset over thousands of games showing an inferior brand of ball that routintely underachieves the roster and expectation..

53 wins with Love/kyrie is an underachievement.. He won 60 games once from 2011-2017 and 2020 or 2023 (all loaded casts yet only 1 for 9 in 60-win seasons - this is clear-cut underachievement of roster and expectation).

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

and Durant's skillset allowed the highest team ceiling possibly ever in 2017 and 2018 - a Luka or Lebron-style ball-dominator would've prevented the GOAT brand of ball and team celling that Durant's skillset allowed..

Well since you’ve become an expert at reading between lines, it bears mentioning that this can double as a concession that Jordan’s Bulls would lose to those Warriors, just as LeBron’s Cavs this.

I can live with that.

Also great to know that Durant was able to win after inheriting a 73 win team. Yes, the best team in the league adds one of the best scorers ever (and likely the 2nd-3rd best player in the league), then improves as a result. Nobody could’ve seen that coming.

[3ba11]

a concession that Jordan’s Bulls would lose to those Warriors, just as LeBron’s Cavs this.





Regardless of whether Jordan could win with his cast of 1 all-star teammate and zero franchise players, he would certainly win with an extra all-star teammate and 2 franchise player teammates (super-team) like Lebron had.

So it's a moot point whether Jordan could win with 1 all-star and zero 1b closers when he would certainly win with 2 all-stars and a 1b closer like Lebron had..

Btw, if an injured-Houston team nearly beat the KD-Warriors, why couldn't the 23' Nuggets, who match up perfectly with them and have a matchup advantage with Joker - aka the Warriors have no answer for Joker, whereas the Nuggets have a lot of guys to throw at KD like Bowen, Porter Jr, Gordon and more.. Meanwhile, Kawhi was up big-time on the KD Warriors in Game 1.






Also great to know that Durant was able to win after inheriting a 73 win team.


.


it takes superior skill and basketball ability to fit with other good players to the point of reaching unprecedented levels of dominance.. So KD's achievement of "goat team" (above Russel, MJ, Moses, Bird & Magic) is indeed a goat achievement and ridiculously-above Lebron's team ceiling capability, aka the goat choke and perennial underdog with Wade/Bosh/Allen, or 53 wins with Kyrie/love, or only 1 sixty-win season from 11-17' (super-teams) - 3 franchise guys on 1 team, yet they can't win 60 games.

Given this massive sample size of Lebron's low team ceiling, it's absurd to think he could have the actual GOAT TEAM like durant did.. This is quite intuitive and obvious.. For this wonderful reason (KD's skillset yields better fits, strategy & team ceilings), KD is superior to Lebron (since winning and accolades don't matter) - out of all the subjective reasons that people choose to make their guy GOAT, I think this is among the soundest and most solid ones out there.

[ShawkFactory]

that's fair but I'm curious.. What do you feel is the reason that Lebron's teams never reached perennial favorite status or that top dynasty level in 20 years and were perennial underdogs?

Was it lack of help? What position on the floor did he not have an all-timer fill at some point?

Was it uniquely-bad circumstances every time he lost?... This seems far less likely than his skillset over thousands of games showing an inferior brand of ball that routintely underachieves the roster and expectation..

53 wins with Love/kyrie is an underachievement.. He won 60 games once from 2011-2017 and 2020 or 2023 (all loaded casts yet only 1 for 9 in 60-win seasons - this is clear-cut underachievement of roster and expectation).

They certainly did.

[3ba11]

They certainly did.


Lebron's team was perennial Finals underdog - never a perennial favorite.. Perennial Finals underdog and loser (low team ceiling capability)

They were favorites on-paper (preseason favorites) but once the basketball started and everyone saw how bad the chemistry was, the team would invariably fall to underdog and need "more help"

Lebron's skillset of imposing spot-up roles yields perennial underdogs and Finals losers regardless of cast (20-21 in Finals excluding 07', 15', 18')

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Regardless of whether Jordan could beat the 17' or 18' Warriors with his cast of 1 all-star teammate and zero franchise players, Jordan would certainly win with an extra all-star teammate and 2 franchise player teammates (super-team) like Lebron had.


IMV Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6. That’s being generous, but I could see it.

Regardless, he loses with that defensive supporting cast. He loses by healthy amounts in both years. The differing margins are academic.

Being that you are one of those plebs that thinks there’s only one side of the ball, you’ll be sure to disagree, but those Cavs teams had next-to-no rim protection and bottom-third defensive ratings. Unless Jordan becomes Hakeem or David Robinson, the Cavs’ team defensive mismatch would remain.

Since you’ve complained in the past about the 90’s Bulls’ rim protection, I would imagine this would be a pain point. Let’s see the pivot.




So it's a moot point whether Jordan could win with 1 all-star and zero 1b closers when he would certainly win with 2 all-stars and a 1b closer like Lebron had..


LeBron had one go of things when the teams were somewhat evenly-matched (‘16), and he won without HCA.




Btw, if an injured-Houston team nearly beat the KD-Warriors,


A mix of variance and the Rockets being great on both sides of the ball. The Cavaliers were a terrible defensive team in 2018 and likely don’t make it to the finals had the Celtics been healthy.




why couldn't the 23' Nuggets, who match up perfectly with them and have a matchup advantage with Joker - aka the Warriors have no answer for Joker,


I have no earthly idea how the Nuggets success or lack thereof ties into this.



whereas the Nuggets have a lot of guys to throw at KD like Bowen, Porter Jr, Gordon and more..


I was told individual defence doesn’t matter. Why list individual defenders if individual defence doesn’t matter, 3ball? :roll:



Meanwhile, Kawhi was up big-time on the KD Warriors in Game 1.


And LeBron was a teammates missed free throw and another teammates mental error away from stealing a game too, with a weaker supporting cast, where he dominated the fourth quarter and overall game.




Lots of organizations can take many years to build chemistry and get to 60 wins like the 2015 Hawks, 2009 Cavs, 2007 Mavs and many more.. Otoh, it takes superior skill and basketball ability to fit with other good players to the point of reaching unprecedented levels of dominance.. So KD's achievement of "goat team" (above Russel, MJ, Moses, Bird & Magic) is indeed a goat achievement and ridiculously-above Lebron's capability,

Yes a 70 win team adding one of the best players in the league is a scary proposition.

Precisely why they were a -128 favourite to win the title before Durant even stepped foot on the court. Never had the league seen odds like these. Should be an interesting data point for someone that can’t get enough of preseason odds.



aka the goat choke and perennial underdog with Wade/Bosh/Allen,


Debunked many times over.



or 53 wins with Kyrie/love,


The Cavs were 50-19 when James played in ‘15, 3-10 when he was out.

Across those four years they were 4-23 when James sat (including an embarrassing 0-8 in ‘17).

I know a certain style of play can be difficult to maintain without the fulcrum of the offence being on the court, but that’s just pathetic. They did fine with LeBron on the court and frequently beat higher win teams (the ‘15 Hawks, the ‘16 Warriors, the ‘17 Celtics, the ‘18 Raptors).

In fact LeBron’s teams beat 8 higher-win teams across 7 finals runs (#1 in wins in ‘13, so that year was omitted).

Simple question that even you can answer: when a lower-win regular season team consistently beats higher-win regular season teams in the post season (8-3 from ‘11-‘18)…would this maybe indicate that these teams are better than their regular season win totals?

Are they, perhaps, looking to peak in the playoffs?

If not, to what do you attribute this strange discrepancy to?

Why are LeBron’s teams consistently beating higher-win teams (some of them being much higher-win teams) if they aren’t better than their win totals evince?

Any thoughts, 3ball?




or only 1 sixty-win season from 11-17' (super-teams) - 3 franchise guys on 1 team, yet they can't win 60 games.


Difficult when those teams flounder when he’s off the court.

Can’t be assed to check, but didn’t Bron play at a 57 win pace with Wade sidelined across four years?

Should be a nice gauge as to who drove their success in those regular seasons. But what do I know, all I’m interested in is telling the truth.



Given the massive sample size of Lebron's low team ceiling, it's absurd to think he could have the actual GOAT TEAM like durant did..


Harrison Barnes was the teams starting SF in ‘16, a year they won 73. They essentially replaced Barnes with Durant (while they lost Bogut, they did not lose much on the aggregate otherwise: Pachulia, McGee, Looney and West were solid front-line additions that made up for the loss of Bogut, Speights—who was a net-negative—and Ezeli).

So yeah, a 70 win team adding a historically great player will be great.

Just a smidge different from the teams LeBron has joined. The ‘11 Heat had similar top-heaviness but also maybe four playable rotation pieces in the PS. The ‘17 Warriors went 10-deep in the playoffs.



This is quite intuitive and obvious.. For this wonderful reason (KD's skillset yields better fits, strategy & team ceilings), KD is superior to Lebron


Durant has many skills. Making it work with a 70 win team isn’t one of the ones I’d highlight.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

As an aside, I’m glad to see you recharged and open to debating me again. The constant flip-flopping about whether I’m worth your time is a bit manic, but I’ll take it.

I would recommend the Waking Up App if you lack the requisite mindfulness to get through one of these exchanges without rage-quitting or soliloquizing.

Hope you find your happy place. Let me know how I can help.

[Axe]

As an aside, I’m glad to see you recharged and open to debating me again. The constant flip-flopping about whether I’m worth your time is a bit manic, but I’ll take it.
:applause:

[SouBeachTalents]

As an aside, I’m glad to see you recharged and open to debating me again. The constant flip-flopping about whether I’m worth your time is a bit manic, but I’ll take it.

I would recommend the Waking Up App if you lack the requisite mindfulness to get through one of these exchanges without rage-quitting or soliloquizing.

Hope you find your happy place. Let me know how I can help.
Don't think that's possible for him unfortunately. Esp not after the beating you gave him in the last thread :lol

[3ba11]

Don't think that's possible for him unfortunately. Esp not after the beating you gave him in the last thread :lol


He isn't worth debating when he says "debunked" to the claim that the Heat had the goat choke in 2011 or that they were perennial Finals underdogs after being favorites on paper in the preseason.

These are all facts that he says "debunked" to and then proceeds with a wall of irrelevant facts and expects a response.. Absurd. I won with facts that he couldn't respond to, so he said "debunked", aka No Mas, I lost.. Case closed.. Another win for 3ball.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

He isn't worth debating when he says "debunked" to the claim that the Heat had the goat choke in 2011 or that they were perennial Finals underdogs after being favorites on paper in the preseason.


I was referring to the implications of the “perennial underdog” claim; when he was an underdog it was because his supporting casts were generally worse. We can go series-for-series if you’d like, as we already have.

I had no idea what you were referencing (“GOAT choke” — am I supposed to be a mind-reader?) but for your sake I’ll make my stance clear: I have repeatedly called ‘11 the biggest legacy-dampener of his career, and an absolutely terrible finals. Many times over, and in many ways, spanning many threads.



These are all facts that he says "debunked" to and then proceeds with a wall of irrelevant facts and expects a response.. Absurd. I won with facts that he couldn't respond to, so he said "debunked", aka No Mas, I lost.. Case closed.. Another win for 3ball.

Every point was responded to directly, with relevant specifics. I’ll quote it again, for your benefit.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Here you go:


IMV Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6. That’s being generous, but I could see it.

Regardless, he loses with that defensive supporting cast. He loses by healthy amounts in both years. The differing margins are academic.

Being that you are one of those plebs that thinks there’s only one side of the ball, you’ll be sure to disagree, but those Cavs teams had next-to-no rim protection and bottom-third defensive ratings. Unless Jordan becomes Hakeem or David Robinson, the Cavs’ team defensive mismatch would remain.

Since you’ve complained in the past about the 90’s Bulls’ rim protection, I would imagine this would be a pain point. Let’s see the pivot.




LeBron had one go of things when the teams were somewhat evenly-matched (‘16), and he won without HCA.




A mix of variance and the Rockets being great on both sides of the ball. The Cavaliers were a terrible defensive team in 2018 and likely don’t make it to the finals had the Celtics been healthy.




I have no earthly idea how the Nuggets success or lack thereof ties into this.



I was told individual defence doesn’t matter. Why list individual defenders if individual defence doesn’t matter, 3ball? :roll:



And LeBron was a teammates missed free throw and another teammates mental error away from stealing a game too, with a weaker supporting cast, where he dominated the fourth quarter and overall game.




Yes a 70 win team adding one of the best players in the league is a scary proposition.

Precisely why they were a -128 favourite to win the title before Durant even stepped foot on the court. Never had the league seen odds like these. Should be an interesting data point for someone that can’t get enough of preseason odds.



Debunked many times over.



The Cavs were 50-19 when James played in ‘15, 3-10 when he was out.

Across those four years they were 4-23 when James sat (including an embarrassing 0-8 in ‘17).

I know a certain style of play can be difficult to maintain without the fulcrum of the offence being on the court, but that’s just pathetic. They did fine with LeBron on the court and frequently beat higher win teams (the ‘15 Hawks, the ‘16 Warriors, the ‘17 Celtics, the ‘18 Raptors).

In fact LeBron’s teams beat 8 higher-win teams across 7 finals runs (#1 in wins in ‘13, so that year was omitted).

Simple question that even you can answer: when a lower-win regular season team consistently beats higher-win regular season teams in the post season (8-3 from ‘11-‘18)…would this maybe indicate that these teams are better than their regular season win totals?

Are they, perhaps, looking to peak in the playoffs?

If not, to what do you attribute this strange discrepancy to?

Why are LeBron’s teams consistently beating higher-win teams (some of them being much higher-win teams) if they aren’t better than their win totals evince?

Any thoughts, 3ball?




Difficult when those teams flounder when he’s off the court.

Can’t be assed to check, but didn’t Bron play at a 57 win pace with Wade sidelined across four years?

Should be a nice gauge as to who drove their success in those regular seasons. But what do I know, all I’m interested in is telling the truth.



Harrison Barnes was the teams starting SF in ‘16, a year they won 73. They essentially replaced Barnes with Durant (while they lost Bogut, they did not lose much on the aggregate otherwise: Pachulia, McGee, Looney and West were solid front-line additions that made up for the loss of Bogut, Speights—who was a net-negative—and Ezeli).

So yeah, a 70 win team adding a historically great player will be great.

Just a smidge different from the teams LeBron has joined. The ‘11 Heat had similar top-heaviness but also maybe four playable rotation pieces in the PS. The ‘17 Warriors went 10-deep in the playoffs.



Durant has many skills. Making it work with a 70 win team isn’t one of the ones I’d highlight.


Which points were irrelevant to the claims they were responding to? How?

[3ba11]

he was an underdog because his supporting casts were generally worse.





Non-franchise players like Draymond would win zero games as the best scorer on a team, whereas Bosh or Love were franchise players that won 40-45 games with no help.

Accordingly, from 2011 to 2016, Lebron was the only guy with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), and the preseason odds reflected this on-paper advantage each year.. The issues is that this on-paper advantage turned to underdog once the basketball season started and people saw how bad the fits, chemistry and strategy was.. More help was always needed to offset the weak chemistry and brand of ball (bron-ball).

Furthermore, Lebron got a pass at 22-23 years old when he wet the bed against the Spurs or Celtics, yet 23-year old Westbrick is supposed to be a favorite against Lebron's veteran super-team with a FMVP like Wade and 3-time MVP like Lebron?..

that's absurd.. Lebron clearly should've been a favorite in the 2012 Finals due to absurd advantages in supporting talent, experience and coaching.. Part of the reason oddsmakers were skeptical of Lebron was because he lost as big favorites for the previous 3 years.. And 37 year-old Duncan had all the age excuses that Lebron had this past season, so there's no reason the history-chasing Heat should've been underdogs in 2014... Wade had just crushed it in the ECF and the Heat were primed to win a historic 3-peat and match MJ or Shaq/Kobe.






I had no idea what you were referencing (“GOAT choke” )





So when I said that the Heat had the goat choke, you had no idea that I was talking about 2011?

that's either a lie or you're incompetent - either way, it's not worth the time to hand-hold you and correct every little misconception and misunderstanding you have about the game..

Maybe you should just grow a pair and pick up a ball yourself, so your understanding can have a breakthrough or something.. Because this playing dumb or being dumb that you're doing (and therefore requiring elementary bball 101 lessons) is ridiculous.

[And1AllDay]

IMV Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6. That’s being generous, but I could see it.

Regardless, he loses with that defensive supporting cast. He loses by healthy amounts in both years. The differing margins are academic.

Being that you are one of those plebs that thinks there’s only one side of the ball, you’ll be sure to disagree, but those Cavs teams had next-to-no rim protection and bottom-third defensive ratings. Unless Jordan becomes Hakeem or David Robinson, the Cavs’ team defensive mismatch would remain.

Since you’ve complained in the past about the 90’s Bulls’ rim protection, I would imagine this would be a pain point. Let’s see the pivot.




LeBron had one go of things when the teams were somewhat evenly-matched (‘16), and he won without HCA.




A mix of variance and the Rockets being great on both sides of the ball. The Cavaliers were a terrible defensive team in 2018 and likely don’t make it to the finals had the Celtics been healthy.




I have no earthly idea how the Nuggets success or lack thereof ties into this.



I was told individual defence doesn’t matter. Why list individual defenders if individual defence doesn’t matter, 3ball? :roll:



And LeBron was a teammates missed free throw and another teammates mental error away from stealing a game too, with a weaker supporting cast, where he dominated the fourth quarter and overall game.




Yes a 70 win team adding one of the best players in the league is a scary proposition.

Precisely why they were a -128 favourite to win the title before Durant even stepped foot on the court. Never had the league seen odds like these. Should be an interesting data point for someone that can’t get enough of preseason odds.



Debunked many times over.



The Cavs were 50-19 when James played in ‘15, 3-10 when he was out.

Across those four years they were 4-23 when James sat (including an embarrassing 0-8 in ‘17).

I know a certain style of play can be difficult to maintain without the fulcrum of the offence being on the court, but that’s just pathetic. They did fine with LeBron on the court and frequently beat higher win teams (the ‘15 Hawks, the ‘16 Warriors, the ‘17 Celtics, the ‘18 Raptors).

In fact LeBron’s teams beat 8 higher-win teams across 7 finals runs (#1 in wins in ‘13, so that year was omitted).

Simple question that even you can answer: when a lower-win regular season team consistently beats higher-win regular season teams in the post season (8-3 from ‘11-‘18)…would this maybe indicate that these teams are better than their regular season win totals?

Are they, perhaps, looking to peak in the playoffs?

If not, to what do you attribute this strange discrepancy to?

Why are LeBron’s teams consistently beating higher-win teams (some of them being much higher-win teams) if they aren’t better than their win totals evince?

Any thoughts, 3ball?




Difficult when those teams flounder when he’s off the court.

Can’t be assed to check, but didn’t Bron play at a 57 win pace with Wade sidelined across four years?

Should be a nice gauge as to who drove their success in those regular seasons. But what do I know, all I’m interested in is telling the truth.



Harrison Barnes was the teams starting SF in ‘16, a year they won 73. They essentially replaced Barnes with Durant (while they lost Bogut, they did not lose much on the aggregate otherwise: Pachulia, McGee, Looney and West were solid front-line additions that made up for the loss of Bogut, Speights—who was a net-negative—and Ezeli).

So yeah, a 70 win team adding a historically great player will be great.

Just a smidge different from the teams LeBron has joined. The ‘11 Heat had similar top-heaviness but also maybe four playable rotation pieces in the PS. The ‘17 Warriors went 10-deep in the playoffs.



Durant has many skills. Making it work with a 70 win team isn’t one of the ones I’d highlight.

op?

issa wrap again?

peja cooked you up again? :oldlol:

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Response to your recent post is incoming. Here is another reminder that you haven’t touched my earlier post:



Here you go:




Which points were irrelevant to the claims they were responding to? How?

As it stands, the quote bubbles you have had the courage to respond to wouldn’t even amount to a single paragraph, and none were from my original post.

[3ba11]

Response to your recent post is incoming. Here is another reminder that you haven’t touched my earlier post:




As it stands, the quote bubbles you have had the courage to respond to wouldn’t even amount to a single paragraph, and none were from my original post.


You said that Lebron's teams lost due to inferior supporting talent, which I responded with:



from 2011 to 2016, Lebron was the only guy with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), and the preseason odds reflected this on-paper advantage each year.. The problem was that this on-paper advantage turned to underdog once the basketball season started and people saw how bad the fits, chemistry and strategy was.. More help was always needed to offset the weak chemistry and brand of ball (bron-ball).

Furthermore, Lebron got a pass at 22-23 years old when he wet the bed against the Spurs or Celtics, yet 23-year old Westbrick is supposed to be a favorite against Lebron's veteran super-team with a FMVP like Wade and 3-time MVP like Lebron?..

that's absurd.. Lebron clearly should've been a favorite in the 2012 Finals due to absurd advantages in supporting talent, experience and coaching.. Part of the reason oddsmakers were skeptical of Lebron was because he lost as big favorites for the previous 3 years.. And 37 year-old Duncan had the same age excuses that Lebron had this past season, so there's no reason the history-chasing Heat should've been underdogs in 2014... Wade had just crushed it in the ECF and the Heat were primed to win a historic 3-peat and match MJ or Shaq/Kobe.




Response to your recent post is incoming. Here is another reminder that you haven’t touched my earlier post:




As it stands, the quote bubbles you have had the courage to respond to wouldn’t even amount to a single paragraph, and none were from my original post.


You said that you didn't know the Heat's "goat choke" referred to 2011, which I responded with:



when I said that the Heat had the goat choke, you had no idea that I was talking about 2011?

that's either a lie or you're incompetent - either way, it's not worth the time to hand-hold you and correct every little misconception and misunderstanding you have about the game..

Maybe you should just grow a pair and pick up a ball yourself, so your understanding can have a breakthrough or something.. Because this playing dumb or being dumb that you're doing (and therefore requiring elementary bball 101 lessons) is ridiculous.

[3ba11]

IMV Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6. That’s being generous, but I could see it.





^^^ this didn't respond to the point being made - the point was that Jordan would easily beat the 17' Warriors or any team in history if he had an extra all-star teammate and 2 extra franchise player teammates (super-team) like Lebron had.

Jordan would have the goat dynasty with this type of extra help since he already had the goat dynasty in most people's eyes with much less.. Lebron simply failed to have the best teams of his era despite preseason favorite status every year (best on-paper talent) because his brand of ball is VASTLY inferior to the teams that beat him (Nuggets, Spurs, Mavs, Warriors, Magic).





IMV Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6. That’s being generous, but I could see it.





^^^ this avoidance about Lebron's superior teammates was the first sentence of your response, so why would I respond to the rest?...

Yet I still skimmed through the rest of your post and responded to the part where you played dumb about what "the heat's goat choke" was referring to (reposted again in previous post above).

Btw, if a borderline top 5 all-time SG like Harden can nearly beat the KD Warriors, then the GOAT SG certainly would.. And MJ wouldn't need 7 games with a goat producer and floor general like CP3, since he didn't need 7 games with a far weaker playmaker and producer in Pippen.. These things are intuitive.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Non-franchise players like Draymond would win zero games as the best scorer on a team, whereas Bosh or Love were franchise players that won 40-45 games with no help.


And everyone and their mom knows Green is a ceiling-raiser, not a #1 scoring option on an otherwise shitty team.

It might’ve only occurred to you recently, but there’s more to basketball and affecting winning than scoring.

When you have Curry/Klay and then Curry/Klay/Durant, to go along with a great bench and Barnes/Green, your scoring needs are met. Several-fold.

Bosh, in two playoff series’ with the Raps, averaged 19/9/3 per 36 on 52% TS and non-impactful defence. He was great for floor-raising a mediocre team to low-to-mid 40’s wins (at best).

He is not a franchise player on any franchise looking to contend, and if for a single moment you think Curry and Thompson would prefer Bosh to Green…I’ve got some acres to sell you.



Accordingly, from 2011 to 2016, Lebron was the only guy with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team),


In order:

- Wade drastically fell off less than halfway through his partnership with Bron. As should be expected of a 29+ year old 6’4 slasher with lower-body injuries and no outside shot.
- Kyrie Irving is now 31 years old and has never been able to have a successful tenure with a franchise after leaving LeBron.

Love and Bosh are solid third options. It just so happens, though, that Love was out in the ‘15 finals and injured in the ‘16 finals. Despite this they played those Warriors to a draw (and that’s without getting into Irving’s own injury in ‘15).



and the preseason odds reflected this on-paper advantage each year..


Preseason odds have absolutely zilch to do with Harden blossoming as a player in ‘12 (a year in which they won), the Heat being the leagues oldest and worst-rebounding team in ‘14 (who would plummet to 30th in assists after losing Bron), or the Warriors turning into a superteam as Curry and Klay entered their primes.

None of these things could have been foreseen by oddsmakers. Those same oddsmakers had the ‘14-‘15 Warriors as +2800 to win the title and you wouldn’t have even gotten a +1800 for them to make it out of the conference.



The issues is that this on-paper advantage turned to underdog once the basketball season started


Neither Harden turning into a Ginobili-tier 6th man nor the Warriors turning sprouting an eventual dynasty had anything to do with LeBron-ball, yet he still won 2 out of those 3 series from ‘11-‘16.



Furthermore, Lebron got a pass at 22-23 years old when he wet the bed against the Spurs or Celtics, yet 23-year old Westbrick is supposed to be a favorite against Lebron's veteran super-team with a FMVP like Wade and 3-time MVP like Lebron?..


I must’ve missed how the #2 of one team (Westbrook) is expected to face the same attention as the #1 of another (LeBron).

“22-23 vs. 23” LOL. That’s a sneaky one. Westbrook was a full year (13 months) older. LeBron at the actual same age took the eventual champion to 7.

Yes, the Thunder deserved to be the slender favourites, despite their inexperience. They had HCA and a stacked roster. Which only makes it all the more weird to hold an authoritative win against LeBron.

Damned if one does or doesn’t, I suppose.

Sure seems as if the Thunder’s exuberance didn’t hurt them when they smashed the ‘12 Spurs, the hottest team in the league by a country mile.

You know, those inexperienced and poorly-coached Spurs we all pan.



that's absurd.. Lebron clearly should've been a favorite in the 2012 Finals due to absurd advantages in supporting talent, experience and coaching..


All of this was addressed, and in any event…the Heat won. Definitively. Without HCA. Did you sleep through the reverse-sweep?



So when I said that the Heat had the goat choke, you had no idea that I was talking about 2011?

that's either a lie or you're incompetent


Truth be told I didn’t give it any thought whatsoever. It was a generality that I skimmed through.

I’m not your mom (your daddy perhaps, but definitely not your mom). I tend to deal in specifics and respond to specific claims. The perennial underdog pablum can at least be addressed as a quasi-specific claim.

But yeah, sue me for not trying to decode you. You’re not my bitch (well, not in that way). I’ll leave it on you to be specific. Especially since you’ve said before that ‘11 wasn’t even the biggest stain on his legacy, LOL. So it’s both the GOAT choke but not the biggest stain?

I’ve dealt with hormonal women less oblique and contradictory than this.

Go have a Midol and get back to me.



Maybe you should just grow a pair and pick up a ball yourself, so your understanding can have a breakthrough or something.. Because this playing dumb or being dumb that you're doing (and therefore requiring elementary bball 101 lessons) is ridiculous.


Like the fake D1 player himself?

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

You said that Lebron's teams lost due to inferior supporting talent, which I responded with:


Good try, but that was the subsequent post. Below has not been meaningfully addressed:


IMV Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6. That’s being generous, but I could see it.

Regardless, he loses with that defensive supporting cast. He loses by healthy amounts in both years. The differing margins are academic.

Being that you are one of those plebs that thinks there’s only one side of the ball, you’ll be sure to disagree, but those Cavs teams had next-to-no rim protection and bottom-third defensive ratings. Unless Jordan becomes Hakeem or David Robinson, the Cavs’ team defensive mismatch would remain.

Since you’ve complained in the past about the 90’s Bulls’ rim protection, I would imagine this would be a pain point. Let’s see the pivot.




LeBron had one go of things when the teams were somewhat evenly-matched (‘16), and he won without HCA.




A mix of variance and the Rockets being great on both sides of the ball. The Cavaliers were a terrible defensive team in 2018 and likely don’t make it to the finals had the Celtics been healthy.




I have no earthly idea how the Nuggets success or lack thereof ties into this.



I was told individual defence doesn’t matter. Why list individual defenders if individual defence doesn’t matter, 3ball? :roll:



And LeBron was a teammates missed free throw and another teammates mental error away from stealing a game too, with a weaker supporting cast, where he dominated the fourth quarter and overall game.




Yes a 70 win team adding one of the best players in the league is a scary proposition.

Precisely why they were a -128 favourite to win the title before Durant even stepped foot on the court. Never had the league seen odds like these. Should be an interesting data point for someone that can’t get enough of preseason odds.



Debunked many times over.



The Cavs were 50-19 when James played in ‘15, 3-10 when he was out.

Across those four years they were 4-23 when James sat (including an embarrassing 0-8 in ‘17).

I know a certain style of play can be difficult to maintain without the fulcrum of the offence being on the court, but that’s just pathetic. They did fine with LeBron on the court and frequently beat higher win teams (the ‘15 Hawks, the ‘16 Warriors, the ‘17 Celtics, the ‘18 Raptors).

In fact LeBron’s teams beat 8 higher-win teams across 7 finals runs (#1 in wins in ‘13, so that year was omitted).

Simple question that even you can answer: when a lower-win regular season team consistently beats higher-win regular season teams in the post season (8-3 from ‘11-‘18)…would this maybe indicate that these teams are better than their regular season win totals?

Are they, perhaps, looking to peak in the playoffs?

If not, to what do you attribute this strange discrepancy to?

Why are LeBron’s teams consistently beating higher-win teams (some of them being much higher-win teams) if they aren’t better than their win totals evince?

Any thoughts, 3ball?




Difficult when those teams flounder when he’s off the court.

Can’t be assed to check, but didn’t Bron play at a 57 win pace with Wade sidelined across four years?

Should be a nice gauge as to who drove their success in those regular seasons. But what do I know, all I’m interested in is telling the truth.



Harrison Barnes was the teams starting SF in ‘16, a year they won 73. They essentially replaced Barnes with Durant (while they lost Bogut, they did not lose much on the aggregate otherwise: Pachulia, McGee, Looney and West were solid front-line additions that made up for the loss of Bogut, Speights—who was a net-negative—and Ezeli).

So yeah, a 70 win team adding a historically great player will be great.

Just a smidge different from the teams LeBron has joined. The ‘11 Heat had similar top-heaviness but also maybe four playable rotation pieces in the PS. The ‘17 Warriors went 10-deep in the playoffs.



Durant has many skills. Making it work with a 70 win team isn’t one of the ones I’d highlight.





you didn't respond to the point being made - the point was that Jordan would easily beat the 17' Warriors or any team in history if he had an extra all-star teammate and 2 extra franchise player teammates (super-team) like Lebron had.


Very much did. Plug Jordan onto the ‘17/‘18 Cavs and they’re still outmatched defensively. This was pored over in the post you will continue to run from, which I will continue to post.



this avoidance and deception was the first sentence of your response, so why would I respond to the rest?...


What did I avoid?

What fairer comparison is there than to put Jordan in the very situation you criticize LeBron for not winning in?



Btw, if a borderline top 5 all-time SG like Harden team can nearly beat the KD Warriors, then the GOAT SG certainly would


Already responded to, in the post you cannot and will not address.

[3ba11]

And everyone and their mom knows Green is a ceiling-raiser, not a #1 scoring option on an otherwise shitty team.

It might’ve only occurred to you recently, but there’s more to basketball and affecting winning than scoring.

When you have Curry/Klay and then Curry/Klay/Durant, to go along with a great bench and Barnes/Green, your scoring needs are met. Several-fold.

Bosh, in two playoff series’ with the Raps, averaged 19/9/3 per 36 on 52% TS and non-impactful defence. He was great for floor-raising a mediocre team to low-to-mid 40’s wins (at best).

He is not a franchise player on any franchise looking to contend, and if for a single moment you think Curry and Thompson would prefer Bosh to Green…I’ve got some acres to sell you.



In order:

- Wade drastically fell off less than halfway through his partnership with Bron. As should be expected of a 29+ year old 6’4 slasher with lower-body injuries and no outside shot.
- Kyrie Irving is now 31 years old and has never been able to have a successful tenure with a franchise after leaving LeBron.

Love and Bosh are solid third options. It just so happens, though, that Love was out in the ‘15 finals and injured in the ‘16 finals. Despite this they played those Warriors to a draw (and that’s without getting into Irving’s own injury in ‘15).



Preseason odds have absolutely zilch to do with Harden blossoming as a player in ‘12 (a year in which they won), the Heat being the leagues oldest and worst-rebounding team in ‘14 (who would plummet to 30th in assists after losing Bron), or the Warriors turning into a superteam as Curry and Klay entered their primes.

None of these things could have been foreseen by oddsmakers. Those same oddsmakers had the ‘14-‘15 Warriors as +2800 to win the title and you wouldn’t have even gotten a +1800 for them to make it out of the conference.



Neither Harden turning into a Ginobili-tier 6th man nor the Warriors turning sprouting an eventual dynasty had anything to do with LeBron-ball, yet he still won 2 out of those 3 series from ‘11-‘16.



I must’ve missed how the #2 of one team (Westbrook) is expected to face the same attention as the #1 of another (LeBron).

“22-23 vs. 23” LOL. That’s a sneaky one. Westbrook was a full year (13 months) older. LeBron at the actual same age took the eventual champion to 7.

Yes, the Thunder deserved to be the slender favourites, despite their inexperience. They had HCA and a stacked roster. Which only makes it all the more weird to hold an authoritative win against LeBron.

Damned if one does or doesn’t, I suppose.

Sure seems as if the Thunder’s exuberance didn’t hurt them when they smashed the ‘12 Spurs, the hottest team in the league by a country mile.

You know, those inexperienced and poorly-coached Spurs we all pan.



All of this was addressed, and in any event…the Heat won. Definitively. Without HCA. Did you sleep through the reverse-sweep?



Truth be told I didn’t give it any thought whatsoever. It was a generality that I skimmed through.

I’m not your mom (your daddy perhaps, but definitely not your mom). I tend to deal in specifics and respond to specific claims. The perennial underdog pablum can at least be addressed as a quasi-specific claim.

But yeah, sue me for not trying to decode you. You’re not my bitch (well, not in that way). I’ll leave it on you to be specific. Especially since you’ve said before that ‘11 wasn’t even the biggest stain on his legacy, LOL. So it’s both the GOAT choke but not the biggest stain?

I’ve dealt with hormonal women less oblique and contradictory than this.

Go have a Midol and get back to me.



Like the fake D1 player himself?


Wade was a franchise player and all-star through 2016 when he nearly led the Heat to the ECF without Lebron.

So again, Lebron was the only guy with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), which was the best on-paper talent in the league from 2011-2016 as the preseason odds reflect all 6 years (6/6).

And Harden's improvement to 6th man in 2012 doesn't catch up to a perennial all-star and franchise player like Bosh, so your arguments are just bad.. Meanwhile, everyone considered Wade to be a top 5 player in 2012 and much better than baby Westbrick - the Heat were a towering super-team with historic expectation and no one thought OKC had more talent - you're just lying about that.

The issue was that it's a massive underachievement to win 50-something games with Wade/Bosh, so the lack of HCA is Lebron's fault - HCA should never be an issue for the GOAT and a super-team, especially against a bunch of babies like Westbrook (or a 37-year old Duncan who has all the age excuses of current Lebron).

And the Warriors "sprouting" into a dynasty isn't a random occurrence - the 2015 Warriors were 8th in preseason odds, so their on-paper talent wasn't good but their brand of ball was ground-breaking - they won via superior brand of ball, which Lebron's skillset doesn't allow, so he's just a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy).. He never really learned how to WIN (organic chemistry and strategy development) because he never evolved out of ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him (AAU-ball).. It's no surprise that a version of Luka-ball has the worst championship record of the modern era.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Still haven’t addressed this post:


IMV Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6. That’s being generous, but I could see it.

Regardless, he loses with that defensive supporting cast. He loses by healthy amounts in both years. The differing margins are academic.

Being that you are one of those plebs that thinks there’s only one side of the ball, you’ll be sure to disagree, but those Cavs teams had next-to-no rim protection and bottom-third defensive ratings. Unless Jordan becomes Hakeem or David Robinson, the Cavs’ team defensive mismatch would remain.

Since you’ve complained in the past about the 90’s Bulls’ rim protection, I would imagine this would be a pain point. Let’s see the pivot.




LeBron had one go of things when the teams were somewhat evenly-matched (‘16), and he won without HCA.




A mix of variance and the Rockets being great on both sides of the ball. The Cavaliers were a terrible defensive team in 2018 and likely don’t make it to the finals had the Celtics been healthy.




I have no earthly idea how the Nuggets success or lack thereof ties into this.



I was told individual defence doesn’t matter. Why list individual defenders if individual defence doesn’t matter, 3ball? :roll:



And LeBron was a teammates missed free throw and another teammates mental error away from stealing a game too, with a weaker supporting cast, where he dominated the fourth quarter and overall game.




Yes a 70 win team adding one of the best players in the league is a scary proposition.

Precisely why they were a -128 favourite to win the title before Durant even stepped foot on the court. Never had the league seen odds like these. Should be an interesting data point for someone that can’t get enough of preseason odds.



Debunked many times over.



The Cavs were 50-19 when James played in ‘15, 3-10 when he was out.

Across those four years they were 4-23 when James sat (including an embarrassing 0-8 in ‘17).

I know a certain style of play can be difficult to maintain without the fulcrum of the offence being on the court, but that’s just pathetic. They did fine with LeBron on the court and frequently beat higher win teams (the ‘15 Hawks, the ‘16 Warriors, the ‘17 Celtics, the ‘18 Raptors).

In fact LeBron’s teams beat 8 higher-win teams across 7 finals runs (#1 in wins in ‘13, so that year was omitted).

Simple question that even you can answer: when a lower-win regular season team consistently beats higher-win regular season teams in the post season (8-3 from ‘11-‘18)…would this maybe indicate that these teams are better than their regular season win totals?

Are they, perhaps, looking to peak in the playoffs?

If not, to what do you attribute this strange discrepancy to?

Why are LeBron’s teams consistently beating higher-win teams (some of them being much higher-win teams) if they aren’t better than their win totals evince?

Any thoughts, 3ball?




Difficult when those teams flounder when he’s off the court.

Can’t be assed to check, but didn’t Bron play at a 57 win pace with Wade sidelined across four years?

Should be a nice gauge as to who drove their success in those regular seasons. But what do I know, all I’m interested in is telling the truth.



Harrison Barnes was the teams starting SF in ‘16, a year they won 73. They essentially replaced Barnes with Durant (while they lost Bogut, they did not lose much on the aggregate otherwise: Pachulia, McGee, Looney and West were solid front-line additions that made up for the loss of Bogut, Speights—who was a net-negative—and Ezeli).

So yeah, a 70 win team adding a historically great player will be great.

Just a smidge different from the teams LeBron has joined. The ‘11 Heat had similar top-heaviness but also maybe four playable rotation pieces in the PS. The ‘17 Warriors went 10-deep in the playoffs.



Durant has many skills. Making it work with a 70 win team isn’t one of the ones I’d highlight.

[3ba11]

Still haven’t addressed this post:


I addressed the first sentence, which was an avoidance and deception, so I avoided the rest of your post.

Specifically, your first sentence said that Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6.. I pointed out how this didn't address my point that Jordan wouldn't lose to anyone if he had an extra all-star teammate and 2 extra franchise players like Lebron had (big 3 super-team).

Since you deceived in the first sentence and were still deceiving later in the post by claiming ignorance on the goat choke, I didn't respond or read the rest of your post - the only 2 sentences I read were frauds, so I busted them up and skipped the rest.. Seems logical and quite gracious actually

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Wade was a franchise player and all-star through 2016 when he nearly led the Heat to the ECF without Lebron.


Wade was, at best, a solid #2 on a contending team from ‘13-‘16. That’s decent help. It’s not “unfair” help.

He was done as a good #1 option come ‘13, and was merely good in the ‘12 playoffs. That’s over half of their time together.

Never said he wasn’t a good player, even in his time with Bron. Just wasn’t the same player, for most of it.

We good here, or you gonna keep drooling out non-responses?



So again, Lebron was the only guy with 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team), which was the best on-paper talent in the league from 2011-2016 as the preseason odds reflect all 6 years (6/6).


Doesn’t matter if you say “again”…this was already addressed:


Bosh, in two playoff series’ with the Raps, averaged 19/9/3 per 36 on 52% TS and non-impactful defence. He was great for floor-raising a mediocre team to low-to-mid 40’s wins (at best).

He is not a franchise player on any franchise looking to contend, and if for a single moment you think Curry and Thompson would prefer Bosh to Green…I’ve got some acres to sell you.

_

In order:

- Wade drastically fell off less than halfway through his partnership with Bron. As should be expected of a 29+ year old 6’4 slasher with lower-body injuries and no outside shot.
- Kyrie Irving is now 31 years old and has never been able to have a successful tenure with a franchise after leaving LeBron.

Love and Bosh are solid third options. It just so happens, though, that Love was out in the ‘15 finals and injured in the ‘16 finals. Despite this they played those Warriors to a draw (and that’s without getting into Irving’s own injury in ‘15).


Put succinctly: Bosh was a good compiler on mediocre teams, and a decent third option. Love was injured in half of the finals they contested, and in the other one he was their #2. Irving has yet to put it together on another team. Wade declined halfway through their partnership.



And Harden's improvement to 6th man in 2012 doesn't catch up to a perennial all-star and franchise player like Bosh, so your arguments are just bad


Harden was the best 6th man in the league and his minutes per game trailed Bosh’s by less than 4.

Every bit the player, but like Bosh he had to sacrifice volume on a team with two other high-volume scorers.



Meanwhile, everyone considered Wade to be a top 5 player in 2012 and much better than baby Westbrick


Westbrook both had a higher all-NBA placing and played Wade to a draw in the finals.

Sorry, cutesy nicknames won’t drive a wedge between the two as players.



the Heat were a towering super-team with historic expectation and no one thought OKC had more talent - you're just lying about that.


So, to summarize what you believe:

- The Heat were a super-team, and had much more talent
- The Thunder were not, and did not, despite smashing the best regular season team in the league the round prior, with even more championship experience
- The Thunder were pre-finals favourites
- The Heat won convincingly, despite being pre-finals underdogs—former is objectively true, latter is confirmed by you
- This is all somehow a stain against LeBron

Very coherent stuff. Tell us more.



The issue was that it's a massive underachievement to win 50-something games with Wade/Bosh,


They played at a 60 win pace with LeBron on the court in ‘12, and LeBron was 14-3 in games Wade missed that year.



so the lack of HCA is Lebron's fault


The Thunder’s Big 3 missed 4 games in ‘12. The Heat’s Big 3 missed 30.

Which other years can we discuss LeBron’s culpability?

‘14? Was he supposed to win 63, commandeering the leagues oldest and worst-rebounding team?

‘15? Was he supposed to win 68 on a team that was 3-10 when he sat?

‘16? Was he supposed to win 74 games? That team was 1-5 in games he missed. And it didn’t matter. They won the title.

‘17? Was he supposed to win 68 with a mediocre defence?

‘18? Oh yeah, LOL.



HCA should never be an issue for the GOAT


Where have I called LeBron the GOAT? Examples? Quotes? Specifics?



and a super-team


Which times?

The ‘14 Heat weren’t a superteam.

The ‘15 Cavs weren’t, while the Warriors most decidedly were.

The ‘16 Cavs bordered on it, and ended up WINNING against a super-team.

The ‘17 and ‘18 Cavs went against the mother of all super teams.

So, which years are we talking about here? Specifics?



especially against a bunch of babies like Westbrook


Second team all-NBA Westbrook, who was a year older than ‘07 LeBron/the same age as ‘08 LeBron, and wasn’t even the best player on the team?



a 37-year old Duncan who has all the age excuses of current Lebron).


The Spurs were a younger team than the Heat. That can sound as wacky as you want. They were straight up a younger team.

Seeing as Duncan is 37, what are we to make of the last two years for LeBron?

Are we now on the same page that what a player does past their prime isn’t a referendum on their legacy?

Excellent to know.



And the Warriors "sprouting"

Uh, do you need a primer on the definition of the word?



into a dynasty isn't a random occurrence


I didn’t say it was random. I said it couldn’t have been foreseen by the oddsmakers, or anyone else. No one worth their salt thought they’d average 70 wins over the next two years, and LeBron-ball had 0% to do with it.



the 2015 Warriors were 8th in preseason odds,


Right. Minuscule odds, with them beating them having nothing to do with LeBron.



so their on-paper talent wasn't good


Wrong. They had two of the 10 best shooters in league history (I think Klay gets a little overrated as a pure shooter, but so be it), the best defensive core of their generation and plus-passers in almost every position.



which Lebron's skillset doesn't allow, so he's just a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy).. He never really learned how to WIN (organic chemistry and strategy development) because he never evolved out of ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him (AAU-ball).. It's no surprise that a version of Luka-ball has the worst championship record of the modern era.


All just a recap of generalities that start to crumble the instant specifics are broached.




I addressed the first sentence, which was an avoidance and deception, so I avoided the rest of your post.

Specifically, your first sentence said that Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6.. I pointed out how this didn't address my point that Jordan wouldn't lose to anyone if he had an extra all-star teammate and 2 extra franchise players like Lebron had (big 3 super-team).


Yeah, you disagreeing with something or wishing it into oblivion doesn’t make the response “an avoidance”.

Presumably, you are arguing that Jordan would’ve won those finals in his shoes, with the same rosters. That is the only fair way to frame this comparison. There is next-to-no reason to believe that Jordan would do materially better and I explain why that’s so. Jordan doesn’t fix their mediocre defence, specifically their league-worst rim protection.

The Cavs were chugging along just fine on offence in ‘17, but they couldn’t stop the Warriors three-headed monster to save their lives. That wouldn’t change. Jordan isn’t putting a lid on three historic shooters and two historically great players, all in their peaks.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Since you deceived in the first sentence and were still deceiving later in the post by claiming ignorance on the goat choke, I didn't respond or read the rest except your post - the only 2 sentences I read of your post were frauds, so I busted them up and skipped the rest.. Seems logical and quite gracious actually



Mate, you read every word :roll: :roll: :roll:


Some very troubled souls might believe that you read every fourth paragraph of a post as a matter of habit. Anyone with a modicum of sense realizes otherwise.

Though, admittedly, I’ve made a habit of speed-skimming some of your posts.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Anyway, here is again the post you have both read in full and avoided faithfully:



IMV Jordan peaked higher, so he might stretch ‘17 to 6. That’s being generous, but I could see it.

Regardless, he loses with that defensive supporting cast. He loses by healthy amounts in both years. The differing margins are academic.

Being that you are one of those plebs that thinks there’s only one side of the ball, you’ll be sure to disagree, but those Cavs teams had next-to-no rim protection and bottom-third defensive ratings. Unless Jordan becomes Hakeem or David Robinson, the Cavs’ team defensive mismatch would remain.

Since you’ve complained in the past about the 90’s Bulls’ rim protection, I would imagine this would be a pain point. Let’s see the pivot.




LeBron had one go of things when the teams were somewhat evenly-matched (‘16), and he won without HCA.




A mix of variance and the Rockets being great on both sides of the ball. The Cavaliers were a terrible defensive team in 2018 and likely don’t make it to the finals had the Celtics been healthy.




I have no earthly idea how the Nuggets success or lack thereof ties into this.



I was told individual defence doesn’t matter. Why list individual defenders if individual defence doesn’t matter, 3ball? :roll:



And LeBron was a teammates missed free throw and another teammates mental error away from stealing a game too, with a weaker supporting cast, where he dominated the fourth quarter and overall game.




Yes a 70 win team adding one of the best players in the league is a scary proposition.

Precisely why they were a -128 favourite to win the title before Durant even stepped foot on the court. Never had the league seen odds like these. Should be an interesting data point for someone that can’t get enough of preseason odds.



Debunked many times over.



The Cavs were 50-19 when James played in ‘15, 3-10 when he was out.

Across those four years they were 4-23 when James sat (including an embarrassing 0-8 in ‘17).

I know a certain style of play can be difficult to maintain without the fulcrum of the offence being on the court, but that’s just pathetic. They did fine with LeBron on the court and frequently beat higher win teams (the ‘15 Hawks, the ‘16 Warriors, the ‘17 Celtics, the ‘18 Raptors).

In fact LeBron’s teams beat 8 higher-win teams across 7 finals runs (#1 in wins in ‘13, so that year was omitted).

Simple question that even you can answer: when a lower-win regular season team consistently beats higher-win regular season teams in the post season (8-3 from ‘11-‘18)…would this maybe indicate that these teams are better than their regular season win totals?

Are they, perhaps, looking to peak in the playoffs?

If not, to what do you attribute this strange discrepancy to?

Why are LeBron’s teams consistently beating higher-win teams (some of them being much higher-win teams) if they aren’t better than their win totals evince?

Any thoughts, 3ball?




Difficult when those teams flounder when he’s off the court.

Can’t be assed to check, but didn’t Bron play at a 57 win pace with Wade sidelined across four years?

Should be a nice gauge as to who drove their success in those regular seasons. But what do I know, all I’m interested in is telling the truth.



Harrison Barnes was the teams starting SF in ‘16, a year they won 73. They essentially replaced Barnes with Durant (while they lost Bogut, they did not lose much on the aggregate otherwise: Pachulia, McGee, Looney and West were solid front-line additions that made up for the loss of Bogut, Speights—who was a net-negative—and Ezeli).

So yeah, a 70 win team adding a historically great player will be great.

Just a smidge different from the teams LeBron has joined. The ‘11 Heat had similar top-heaviness but also maybe four playable rotation pieces in the PS. The ‘17 Warriors went 10-deep in the playoffs.



Durant has many skills. Making it work with a 70 win team isn’t one of the ones I’d highlight.

[3ba11]

Mate, you read every word :roll: :roll: :roll:





:lebronamazed:... it's remarkable that you would think that at this point.. although i guess not that remarkable at this point

[RRR3]

:lebronamazed:... it's remarkable that you would think that at this point.. although i guess not that remarkable at this point
Look how worked up Peja made you. You turned your tail and ran from the other thread he sonned you so bad :roll:

[3ba11]

Look how worked up Peja made you. You turned your tail and ran from the other thread he sonned you so bad :roll:


I'm honestly surprised that he thinks I read his posts at this point. Surprised at his lack of self-awareness

[RRR3]

I'm honestly surprised that he thinks I read his posts at this point. Surprised at his lack of self-awareness
I'm surprised he beat you so bad you quit arguing with him permanently. Now that's shook.

[3ba11]

I'm surprised he beat you so bad you quit arguing with him permanently. Now that's shook.


He had some evil plan to keep me on here all summer and said as much.. He also talked about his job 1 too many times and how he was having to automate everything to respond to me.. I thought that was kind of weird and part of the reason I stopped responding - I don't want to cost the guy his job.

[RRR3]

He had some evil plan to keep me on here all summer and said as much.. He also talked about his job 1 too many times and how he was having to automate everything to respond to me.. I thought that was kind of weird and part of the reason I stopped responding - I don't want to cost the guy his job.
Make all the excuses you want. We all know the truth: you couldn't argue with what he said.

[3ba11]

Make all the excuses you want. We all know the truth: you couldn't argue with what he said.


he stopped responding intelligently and started a game of trying to keep me on here.. he's a child that was educated on many things by me

ultimately, he refused to acknowledge large sample sizes and wanted to make individual excuses for each individual case within the sample size - no intelligent person would engage this

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

:lebronamazed:... it's remarkable that you would think that at this point.. although i guess not that remarkable at this point


Right, far more plausible to think that you randomly skip paragraphs as a matter of habit and refuse to respond to my posts out of principle for what appears to be one of the few times in 10+ years…

…while also…still responding.

What a confused mess you are.

[1987_Lakers]

https://media.tenor.com/G5XOA7sDgwYAAAAM/omar-the-wire.gif

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

He had some evil plan to keep me on here all summer

I think what’s truly odious is spending every page of every thread of the last 10 years lying and sucking the air out of every discussion you’re involved in.

As is doctoring someone’s words to make them easier to respond to…should we go over that again?


his job 1 too many times and how he was having to automate everything to respond to me.. I thought that was kind of weird and part of the reason I stopped responding - I don't want to cost the guy his job.

Um..wanna pull those posts up? LOL.

And wanna bet on whether I actually said that?

Same terms: whoever is lying takes a half-year break from this place.

What I actually said was that I’ve automated most of my job (which happened long, long before I engaged you) and as such lose nothing by appearing busy while I’m at work. Hence the superhuman patience I’ve shown you, dummy. :roll:

Unlike some of your time-sucked casualties, you won’t spam me into submission no matter how hard you try, because I already spend much of my time twiddling my thumbs at this job. You’ve made me appear busier to my boomer employer. I can keep dunking on you and it’ll keep being additive.

But again: should we bet about the content of what I actually said, you lying man-idolizer? Should be an easy W if you’ve read these posts oh-so-many times. I haven’t.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

he stopped responding intelligently and started a game of trying to keep me on here.. he's a child that was educated on many things by me


The fact that I’ve been willing to bet on the veracity of so many of your statements should show I can take-or-leave your presence. Whether you’re being a “little engine that couldn’t” or running, it’s fun and will continue to be.

Now, why don’t you prove how unimportant keeping you on here is for me by agreeing to the bet?

You made a statement, and presumably stand by its honesty. So what’s there to lose?

:roll: :roll: :roll:



ultimately, he refused to acknowledge large sample sizes and wanted to make individual excuses for each individual case within the sample size - no intelligent person would engage this

Which ones were excuses? Why? Which of my counter-examples were wrong? Why?