Does Jokic have more potential than Lebron?

[Walk on Water]

Jokic seems to be better at triple doubles and he’s a center! I don’t really see how you can say Lebron is better. He got swept. Jokic averages more assists and rebounds. Has a higher field goal percentage. You use these arguments FOR Lebron when comparing him to others. Please have that same energy when comparing him to Jokic.

Jokic also didn’t need a Bosh or a Wade. Murray is great but come on now. Jokic and Murray actually have chemistry. Jokic didn’t need a many time all star. So if you’re gonna say Lebron has more chips but then dismiss Jordan cuz he had Pippen, now you see why we think you’re wrong and hypocritical.

Jokic has every bit of an argument Lebron has at least at this point. I’m not downplaying Lebron, but Jokic is at least on his level.

[kawhileonard2]

Yes he won with what he had and didn't have a guy who won league or finals mvp on his team.

[Axe]

https://i.giphy.com/media/WvuwQwrEq55yMGEJfX/giphy.webp

[ILLsmak]

https://i.giphy.com/media/WvuwQwrEq55yMGEJfX/giphy.webp

yea basically lol

it's like some imgaine or w/e strange spelling his name is. Some of his threads it's like WOW PARADOX and other threads are like hmm yea nah.

-Smak

[JohnMax]

Luka might be only current player with Lebron like potential.

[HoopsNY]

No. Jokic will never pass LeBron. It's insulting to even think he would.

[HoopsNY]

Luka might be only current player with Lebron like potential.

I knew the day would come where people would be saying this about Jokic and Luka. Neither player will ever be LeBron.

[HoopologyPhD]

Not until he loses a finals and puts up terrible stats against ordinary short defenders

[Full Court]

Absolutely he does. He's already won a ring/FMVP without team-hopping, something Lebron never could do. If Jokic can repeat next year, he'll already have passed up Lebron in all time rankings.

[Wardell Curry]

If Jokic can repeat next year

As if championships all boil down to one player. This is a snapshot of the thinking of your prototypical sports fan, ladies and gentlemen.

[ELITEpower23]

8,023 Playoff Points

Next closest doesn't even have 6,000

Good luck Jokic :lol

[tpols]

No. Jokic will never pass LeBron. It's insulting to even think he would.

He just kicked his ass in the playoffs to a tune of a sweep.

It's always funny to me how a guy could outplay and crush somebody and then people trun around and act like it's not close.

It's like a MMA fighter KO'ing somebody and then people afterwards saying the guy that got knocked out was easily better.

Makes no sense.

[Walk on Water]

He just kicked his ass in the playoffs to a tune of a sweep.

It's always funny to me how a guy could outplay and crush somebody and then people trun around and act like it's not close.

It's like a MMA fighter KO'ing somebody and then people afterwards saying the guy that got knocked out was easily better.

Makes no sense.



Ha ha ha

[sdot_thadon]

He just kicked his ass in the playoffs to a tune of a sweep.

It's always funny to me how a guy could outplay and crush somebody and then people trun around and act like it's not close.

It's like a MMA fighter KO'ing somebody and then people afterwards saying the guy that got knocked out was easily better.

Makes no sense.

It's crazy how Lebron has been playing for so long that time is no object. Yes, Joker swept year 572 Lebron but he couldn't hold a candle within a lightyear of Prime Lebron. Theres really big differences between then and now, that's all.

[ILLsmak]

yall bumping this shit is triggering lool

-Smak

[sdot_thadon]

yall bumping this shit is triggering lool

-Smak

Kinda feel like something this retarded should be held high above the kingdom for everyone to see and acknowledge it and its stupidity.

[tpols]

It's crazy how Lebron has been playing for so long that time is no object. Yes, Joker swept year 572 Lebron but he couldn't hold a candle within a lightyear of Prime Lebron. Theres really big differences between then and now, that's all.

Jokic is a much better team player than Lebron. It's checkers to chess. He enhances everybody around him on top of his own ridiculous production and clutchness and didn't need to team hop with the best players in the world to win. He's a better basketball player.

[Full Court]

As if championships all boil down to one player. This is a snapshot of the thinking of your prototypical sports fan, ladies and gentlemen.

Yeah, so let's pretend that winning FMVP isn't the pinnacle accomplishment in the sport or anything.

:biggums:

[1987_Lakers]

As if championships all boil down to one player. This is a snapshot of the thinking of your prototypical sports fan, ladies and gentlemen.

:roll:

[John8204]

One ring and you enter the top ten...

[ELITEpower23]

He just kicked his ass in the playoffs to a tune of a sweep.

It's always funny to me how a guy could outplay and crush somebody and then people trun around and act like it's not close.

It's like a MMA fighter KO'ing somebody and then people afterwards saying the guy that got knocked out was easily better.

Makes no sense.

This dumb cvnt miss the 2020 playoffs? :lol

[SATAN]

Jokic is a much better team player than Lebron. It's checkers to chess. He enhances everybody around him on top of his own ridiculous production and clutchness and didn't need to team hop with the best players in the world to win. He's a better basketball player.

This is a very bad take for a number of reasons tbh.

[SATAN]

He just kicked his ass in the playoffs to a tune of a sweep.

It's always funny to me how a guy could outplay and crush somebody and then people trun around and act like it's not close.

It's like a MMA fighter KO'ing somebody and then people afterwards saying the guy that got knocked out was easily better.

Makes no sense.

:facepalm

[Full Court]

This dumb cvnt miss the 2020 playoffs? :lol

Nobody takes the Mickey Mouse ring seriously. Where have you been?

[Goldrush25]

Absolutely he does. He's already won a ring/FMVP without team-hopping, something Lebron never could do. If Jokic can repeat next year, he'll already have passed up Lebron in all time rankings.

you are free to make any type of mythical all-time rankings you want. Why not just put jokic above him now?

[Full Court]

you are free to make any type of mythical all-time rankings you want. Why not just put jokic above him now?

Nah, he hasn't accomplished enough yet. But if you want to go ahead and rank him ahead of Lebron now, I won't hold it against you.

[HoopsNY]

He just kicked his ass in the playoffs to a tune of a sweep.

It's always funny to me how a guy could outplay and crush somebody and then people trun around and act like it's not close.

It's like a MMA fighter KO'ing somebody and then people afterwards saying the guy that got knocked out was easily better.

Makes no sense.

Really? How does this make sense? You're going to talk about Jokic thumping a 38 year old LeBron who is in year 20? You're acting like this was LeBron circa 2009 or 2012 out there.

[HoopsNY]

Jokic is a much better team player than Lebron. It's checkers to chess. He enhances everybody around him on top of his own ridiculous production and clutchness and didn't need to team hop with the best players in the world to win. He's a better basketball player.

That's absurd. Did LeBron have a player that was equal to the caliber of Jamal Murray in his first 7 seasons in the league? What does LeBron from 2004-2010 do with Murray as his sidekick?

[HoopsNY]

2020 LeBron "thumped" Jokic...

'20 LeBron vs. DEN: 27/10/9/1/1 on 61% TS%
'20 Jokic vs. LAL: 22/7/5/2/0 on 62% TS%

'20 Gm 5 LeBron: 38/16/10/1 on 60%
'20 Gm 5 Jokic: 20/7/5/3 on 53%

Guess context doesn't matter here either right?

[NBAGOAT]

Most likely not quite because of defense. I got no problem saying jokic is a better offensive player than even prime bron and a bit better at playing with different teammates but prime bron is an anchor on defense. Curry is similar

[tpols]

That's absurd. Did LeBron have a player that was equal to the caliber of Jamal Murray in his first 7 seasons in the league? What does LeBron from 2004-2010 do with Murray as his sidekick?

This Nuggets team was +2000 underdogs to win the title this year. By 2010 Cleveland was +300 title favorites along with Kobes Lakers. Massive difference. Jokic just won with odds Lebrons teams never even came close to winning with. Just facts.

Yea Murray had a great playoff run but he isn't a Wade or AD level talent in general. On his own team he's not even All NBA level like Bosh and Love were (they factually made All NBA... Murray was never even close to making the team) The organic chemistry he has with jokic is awesome and a big part of his success as well.

Ultimately, Jokic stuck it out and was the linchpin in the Nuggets awesome chemistry and high IQ brand of basketball and ultimate overachieiving season -> 1 seed plus dominant championship run going through Durant, Booker, Lebron, AD, Butler and Bam and kicking all their asses.

Furthermore Yolk never choked like Lebron did in 2010 when he quit vs the Celtics and quit on his hometown team and then paired with the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league and an All NBA 3rd option stacking the deck in ridiculous fashion with "The Decision". Yea... im sure you think murray is better than prime Wade too. That would be like jokic losing this year and team hopping to the Bucks or Suns or something. He didn't need to do that to win though.

[HoopsNY]

This Nuggets team was +2000 underdogs to win the title this year. By 2010 Cleveland was +300 title favorites along with Kobes Lakers. Massive difference. Jokic just won with odds Lebrons teams never even came close to winning with. Just facts.

Yea Murray had a great playoff run but he isn't a Wade or AD level talent in general. On his own team he's not even All NBA level like Bosh and Love were (they factually made All NBA... Murray was never even close to making the team) The organic chemistry he has with jokic is awesome and a big part of his success as well.

Ultimately, Jokic stuck it out and was the linchpin in the Nuggets awesome chemistry and high IQ brand of basketball and ultimate overachieiving season -> 1 seed plus dominant championship run going through Durant, Booker, Lebron, AD, Butler and Bam and kicking all their asses.

Furthermore Yolk never choked like Lebron did in 2010 when he quit vs the Celtics and quit on his hometown team and then paired with the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league and an All NBA 3rd option stacking the deck in ridiculous fashion with "The Decision". Yea... im sure you think murray is better than prime Wade too. That would be like jokic losing this year and team hopping to the Bucks or Suns or something. He didn't need to do that to win though.

I don't think you understand my point. You said he doesn't need to team hop, but failed to mention that LeBron didn't have anyone in his first 7 seasons the caliber of Murray.

LeBron left because of the lack of help he had in Cleveland. So what happened with the superteams isn't relevant to the point being made. And isn't it insane that LeBron had much higher odds to win it all despite not having a sidekick that could put up 30/10 in a series?

Jokic is not better than peak/prime LeBron. His defense is mediocre no matter how well he played defensively in the finals. And what's ironic about that is that LeBron haters like yourself will turn around and use Jokic's defense in the finals and ignore LeBron's in the WCF against....Jokic. :lol

LeBron at his best was an athletic phenom who could score, pass, defend, and shoot. As great as Jokic is, he's not LeBron.

[tpols]

I don't think you understand my point. You said he doesn't need to team hop, but failed to mention that LeBron didn't have anyone in his first 7 seasons the caliber of Murray.

LeBron left because of the lack of help he had in Cleveland. So what happened with the superteams isn't relevant to the point being made. And isn't it insane that LeBron had much higher odds to win it all despite not having a sidekick that could put up 30/10 in a series?

Jokic is not better than peak/prime LeBron. His defense is mediocre no matter how well he played defensively in the finals. And what's ironic about that is that LeBron haters like yourself will turn around and use Jokic's defense in the finals and ignore LeBron's in the WCF against....Jokic. :lol

LeBron at his best was an athletic phenom who could score, pass, defend, and shoot. As great as Jokic is, he's not LeBron.

Lebron left because he quit vs the Celtics in 2010 ECSF series. Google it... theres a ton of articles on that series all saying the same thing.

And then he had to stack the deck in ridiculous fashion to eventually win... though he did lose with a huge title favorite in 2011.

If Jokic would've played how Lebron did in that 2010 loss, the Nuggets would not have won the championship. They needed Yolk firing on all cylinders and going absolutely off to win. They would have lost if Jokic had a poor showing vs the Lakers or the Suns.

But he didnt... and the rest is history.

[tpols]

https://i.postimg.cc/N0gNRRRs/Screenshot-20230620-085617-Chrome.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/sX0ykj3W/Screenshot-20230620-085604-Chrome.jpg

Nuggets don't win a title if Jokic does that ^^^.

But he never quit and won the right way...

[HoopsNY]

Lebron left because he quit vs the Celtics in 2010 ECSF series. Google it... theres a ton of articles on that series all saying the same thing.

And then he had to stack the deck in ridiculous fashion to eventually win... though he did lose with a huge title favorite in 2011.

If Jokic would've played how Lebron did in that 2010 loss, the Nuggets would not have won the championship. They needed Yolk firing on all cylinders and going absolutely off to win. They would have lost if Jokic had a poor showing vs the Lakers or the Suns.

But he didnt... and the rest is history.

I'm not denying that LeBron quit in 2010. But despite his woes against the Celtics, LeBron put up 27/9/7/2 on 56% TS%. And this was against an elite defensive team in Boston, something you're conveniently leaving out of the conversation.

Who did Denver face that was remotely similar to those Celtics teams of 2008-10 on the defensive end? And you're also not accounting for the style of play, lack of defensive intensity, and difference in 3PA. Granted, the pace was lower in this year's finals than the 2010 ECSF, but there should be some adjustment all things considered.

And I'm also unsure as to why that specific series defines the entirety of LeBron's career, let alone his peak/prime? LeBron had arguably the longest prime of any player in league history, so why isolate that series?

[tpols]

I used that series because you brought that time frame up and it was the turning point between sticking it out to win somewhat fairly and not having to resort to "not 4, not 5, not 6 title" level super teams, which right off the bat he still lost with anyways.

While Jokic took the opposite path, stuck it out, never quit, totally dominated and won the title with a +2000 underdog nobody expected to win the championship to start the season.

It's not even a huge insult to lebron to be worse than a 7 foot Larry Bird. Yolk just had a GOAT title run that stacks up against any run ever and he didn't need to team hop with ridiculous star talent to get it done.

[DMAVS41]

I used that series because you brought that time frame up and it was the turning point between sticking it out to win somewhat fairly and not having to resort to "not 4, not 5, not 6 title" level super teams, which right off the bat he still lost with anyways.

While Jokic took the opposite path, stuck it out, never quit, totally dominated and won the title with a +2000 underdog nobody expected to win the championship to start the season.

It's not even a huge insult to lebron to be worse than a 7 foot Larry Bird. Yolk just had a GOAT title run that stacks up against any run ever and he didn't need to team hop with ridiculous star talent to get it done.

The problem with your "+2000 underdog" line of thinking is that it was only those odds because Murray had not played in a year and a half and Porter was coming off playing 9 games...you using those betting odds as an indicator of their team strength is a terrible argument.

Absolutely fair to both criticize Lebron for leaving and for hopping to a loaded team and taking the easy path...what isn't fair...is to compare the rosters Lebron had in Cleveland to the Nuggets this year in the playoffs. Not even remotely comparable...and no amount of misleading gambling odds will change that.

[RRR3]

Tpols getting abused by serious posters as usual :yaohappy:

[tpols]

The problem with your "+2000 underdog" line of thinking is that it was only those odds because Murray had not played in a year and a half and Porter was coming off playing 9 games...you using those betting odds as an indicator of their team strength is a terrible argument.

Absolutely fair to both criticize Lebron for leaving and for hopping to a loaded team and taking the easy path...what isn't fair...is to compare the rosters Lebron had in Cleveland to the Nuggets this year in the playoffs. Not even remotely comparable...and no amount of misleading gambling odds will change that.

The 2011 Mavericks had the same +2000 underdog odds to win the title. And of course you'd agree that they were underdogs too but just like the Nuggets they had a championship level of chemistry and comraderie. Not just a super team thrown together, but an organic unit whose sum of their parts played much better than their individual pieces. And led by an ATG performances by Dirk and Jokic.

Nobody knew Jason Terry was going to outplay kobe and Lebron... but he did. Nobody knew Tyson Chandler would play DPOY level defense... but he did. Nobody knew a midget Barea was going to take over games at times to the point Bynum tried to delete him. But he did.

Does that disqualify Dirks ATG run because his guys outperformed expectations? To me it doesn't because their overachievement was based on the chemistry and comraderie that Dallas played with.

And Denver had both those things in spades as well which elevated everybody. With Jokic and Dirk unselfishness and GOAT IQs and takeover ability being the main engine for it all.

Is what it is....

[DMAVS41]

The 2011 Mavericks had the same +2000 underdog odds to win the title. And of course you'd agree that they were underdogs too but just like the Nuggets they had a championship level of chemistry and comraderie. Not just a super team thrown together, but an organic unit whose sum of their parts played much better than their individual pieces. And led by an ATG performances by Dirk and Jokic.

Nobody knew Jason Terry was going to outplay kobe and Lebron... but he did. Nobody knew Tyson Chandler would play DPOY level defense... but he did. Nobody knew a midget Barea was going to take over games at times to the point Bynum tried to delete him. But he did.

Does that disqualify Dirks ATG run because his guys outperformed expectations? To me it doesn't because their overachievement was based on the chemistry and comraderie that Dallas played with.

And Denver had both those things in spades as well which elevated everybody. With Jokic and Dirk unselfishness and GOAT IQs and takeover ability being the main engine for it all.

Is what it is....

You, once again, are arguing with a ghost. I never once said it takes away from Jokic.

[HoopsNY]

I used that series because you brought that time frame up and it was the turning point between sticking it out to win somewhat fairly and not having to resort to "not 4, not 5, not 6 title" level super teams, which right off the bat he still lost with anyways.

While Jokic took the opposite path, stuck it out, never quit, totally dominated and won the title with a +2000 underdog nobody expected to win the championship to start the season.

It's not even a huge insult to lebron to be worse than a 7 foot Larry Bird. Yolk just had a GOAT title run that stacks up against any run ever and he didn't need to team hop with ridiculous star talent to get it done.

I brought up that time frame because you brought up super-teams, comparing him with Jokic who has had a teammate who can not only share a scoring load, but also playmake. The two situations are not akin. Could you imagine if LeBron had a player like Murray in 2009 against Orlando? What happens if he has someone like a Deron Williams?

Jokic hasn't "stuck it out". Sticking it out would mean he had the difficulty of someone like an MJ, LeBron, or even someone like Dame who all didn't have a running mate that could help them bring a chip to their city for many years. Having a 25/5/6 teammate doesn't require you to "stick it out".

[HoopsNY]

'23 Murray WCF: 33/6/5/3 on 65% TS%
'23 Murray FS: 21/6/10/1 on 55% TS%

Murray in the finals and WCF put up 26/6/8/2 on 60% TS%. But Jokic had to "stick it out"? Please explain that to me. Do you mean prior to 2023? If so, then Murray still put up great numbers in 2020 and Denver still couldn't beat 35 year old LeBron (irony?) and co.

[bison]

Yes he has already surpassed lebron in every criteria and metric

[ArbitraryWater]

He just kicked his ass in the playoffs to a tune of a sweep.

It's always funny to me how a guy could outplay and crush somebody and then people trun around and act like it's not close.

It's like a MMA fighter KO'ing somebody and then people afterwards saying the guy that got knocked out was easily better.

Makes no sense.

eBron played like ass since his injury, could barely even dunk.

This isnt an individual sport dude lol.

[SATAN]

tpols getting annihilated itt like ImKobe in every other thread he starts in. I don't know why you guys try the deliberately contradictory shit on this level.

[RogueBorg]

What does LeBron from 2004-2010 do with Murray as his sidekick?

Wreck him.

Lebron is where NBA careers go to die.

[ShawkFactory]

Wreck him.

Lebron is where NBA careers go to die.

Murray and Lebron would be an outstanding fit.

[HoopsNY]

Wreck him.

Lebron is where NBA careers go to die.

So Kyrie won a championship with LeBron, but Murray wouldn't? Make it make sense.

[Full Court]

So Kyrie won a championship with LeBron, but Murray wouldn't? Make it make sense.

Kyrie does everything Murray does, only better. I like Murray a lot, but Kyrie is a step up.

[HoopsNY]

Kyrie does everything Murray does, only better. I like Murray a lot, but Kyrie is a step up.

Kyrie might be a step up, but Murray isn't miles away from him. And Murray is a much better playmaker than Kyrie. But the question is more about his first stint with CLE.

Look at the following series and tell me if LeBron has a player the caliber of Murray, if the outcome changes at all:

2006 ECSF vs. DET

This series went 7 games. LeBron's second option put up 11 PPG on 51% TS%. No other player averaged double figures. In game 7, LeBron scored 27 of the team's 61 points. Hughes was the only player that put up double figures in the game, and half of his 10 points came in the 4th when the game was already out of reach.


2008 ECSF vs. BOS

LeBron took this 2008 team to a game 7 against arguably one of the greatest teams of all-time. That team was a juggernaut defense and it showed, limiting LeBron to just 35% shooting for the entire series. No player averaged more than 12 PPG, and his numbers are misleading because Ilgauskas faded away after games 1 and 2. Here as his games 3-5:

Game 3: 12 PTS
Game 4: 9 PTS
Game 5: 6 PTS
Game 6: 7 PTS
Game 7: 8 PTS

Game 7 was his worst shooting performance (2-8) of the entire series. This series was close for every game except game 3 (CLE won). In game 7, LeBron went off for 45 points. His next best teammate was West with 15 points. No other player scored in double figures.

If LeBron has a player of Murray's caliber, then his chances of beating that all-time great Celtics team significantly increases.

2009 vs. ORL ECF

This series went 6 games, but Mo Williams shot just 37% during the series. I think Williams is probably the best sidekick LeBron had, but I still don't think he's as good as Murray is, even when adjusting for pace and style of play. It's likely this series goes 7 games with someone like Murray as a sidekick.

2010 vs. BOS ECSF

Shaq was their leading scorer after LeBron, putting up 13.5 PPG on 51%. Sorry, but Murray is putting up more points in that situation and giving CLE a much better chance at advancing to the ECF.

By comparison, Murray ranked 17th in playoff PPG between 2020-2023. Mo Williams (arguably LeBron's best sidekick in his first stint), ranked 46th between 2009-2010.