How many guys won with sidekicks that were never THAT GUY

[3ba11]

For example, Wiggins was never considered an elite 1st option like Wade, who was THAT GUY, aka he dominated many playoff runs with elite production - another example of THAT GUY might be donovan mitchell, ja morant, or anyone that can take over games in the playoffs with top tier, dominant production.

So when we look at history, we see that aside from a couple one-offs by Hakeem or Duncan, only expert jumpshooters won without THAT GUY for a sidekick - centers and ball-dominators needed THAT GUY like when Magic needed Kareem or Shaq needed Kobe, while Lebron needed AD, Wade or a someone to demolish the only league MVP in history.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters won with secondary producers like Wiggins, Klay, Pippen, Pau, or Jason Terry.. Isn't this what 3-pointer history shows?.. Maybe Isiah is an exception because Dumars wasn't considered THAT GUY but Dumars was a 27/6/6 FMVP.. Ultimately, no one won more than 2 Finals without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of those Finals, with the exception of MJ's 6 titles - that's three times as many titles without a FMVP or 25 ppg sidekick as anyone else.

[ShawkFactory]

You're REALLY going to make the exact same thread again?

[SouBeachTalents]

https://i.postimg.cc/44Y4VV6C/Y2-Mate-2.gif

[StrongLurk]

You're REALLY going to make the exact same thread again?

He's literally an addict. He cannot stop himself. Honestly it's sad to see.

[Hey Yo]

How many guys won with the 5th option receiving multiple FMVP votes?

[Hey Yo]

https://i.postimg.cc/44Y4VV6C/Y2-Mate-2.gif

Will never get old

[zeerghit]

https://i.postimg.cc/44Y4VV6C/Y2-Mate-2.gif

wow insane :applause::roll:

[Sportal]

Correct me if I'm wrong... But didn't Pippen get further by himself than Wade by himself?

[HoopsNY]

A lot of finals was like that. Hakeem in '94 and '95 didn't win with a sidekick producing 24-25+ PPG. Duncan did it in '99, then Shaq in 2000. Then Duncan again in 2003, the Pistons as an entire team in 2004, Duncan in 2005, Wade in 2006, Parker in 2007, Pierce in 2008, Kobe in 2009 and 2010, Dirk in 2011, LeBron in 2012 and 2013, the Spurs in 2014, Steph in 2015.

It wasn't until 2016 where we saw a sidekick drop 24-25 PPG, which - to no surprise - comes when the league became a three point shooting contest. Same in 2017 and 2018. And then again in 2020.

A sidekick putting up big numbers in the finals isn't the norm. I'm not sure why you keep insisting that it is.

[Axe]

59 wins without dad killer.

[97 bulls]

A lot of finals was like that. Hakeem in '94 and '95 didn't win with a sidekick producing 24-25+ PPG. Duncan did it in '99, then Shaq in 2000. Then Duncan again in 2003, the Pistons as an entire team in 2004, Duncan in 2005, Wade in 2006, Parker in 2007, Pierce in 2008, Kobe in 2009 and 2010, Dirk in 2011, LeBron in 2012 and 2013, the Spurs in 2014, Steph in 2015.

It wasn't until 2016 where we saw a sidekick drop 24-25 PPG, which - to no surprise - comes when the league became a three point shooting contest. Same in 2017 and 2018. And then again in 2020.

A sidekick putting up big numbers in the finals isn't the norm. I'm not sure why you keep insisting that it is.

Eloquently put. Now 3ball will totally ignore this post. A post that's nothing but facts. And he will post the same nonsense in another thread.


That's what I think is the problem. It's not his opinions. But the facts he uses to back up his opinions are awful. Awful in that there's no context in those facts.

[red1]

4 finals MVPs


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https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ExemplaryCheapCapybara-max-1mb.gif

[HoopsNY]

Eloquently put. Now 3ball will totally ignore this post. A post that's nothing but facts. And he will post the same nonsense in another thread.


That's what I think is the problem. It's not his opinions. But the facts he uses to back up his opinions are awful. Awful in that there's no context in those facts.

:cheers:

[97 bulls]

In all honesty, Klay Thompson, Scottie Pippen, James Worthy, to name a few, never or hadn't yet had a fair chance to be "that guy".

[Axe]

Pippen also had finals mvp votes during his last championship run. Op being clueless as usual.

[ArbitraryWater]

https://i.postimg.cc/44Y4VV6C/Y2-Mate-2.gif


the 3-peat chemistry at the end gets me

[Phoenix]

https://i.postimg.cc/xddkw47g/3nutball2.gif

[3ba11]

How many guys won with the 5th option receiving multiple FMVP votes?


That shows how bad Pippen was because he was 0/6 in getting FMVP votes, aka even a non-scoring rebounder got more FMVP votes than Pippen

[3ba11]

Correct me if I'm wrong... But didn't Pippen get further by himself than Wade by himself?


Actually, the Heat were injured in 2015 but made nearly made the 16' ECF just like the 94' Bulls:



Playoffs

16' WADE...... 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PIPPEN.... 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%


Clutch stats for PIppen and Wade shown below:




Correct me if I'm wrong... But didn't Pippen get further by himself than Wade by himself?


Clutch Points (last 5 within 5) for 2016 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2022/-5mtpL.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=TotalsMode=Totals



Clutch Points for 1994 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif


Pippen also amazingly had zero clutch points for the entire 98' 2nd Round (here (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=Totals))



The Heat were injured in 15' but nearly made 16' ECF without Lebron just like 94' Bulls without MJ


Playoffs

16' WADE...... 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PIPPEN.... 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%


^^™ the difference is that Wade was building the Heat like a real 1st option does, while Pippen drove the Bulls downward and was borderline lottery in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber

Wade has far superior scoring, efficiency, and clutch, while also having better apg and bpg and FMVP.. He would've had 2 FMVP but Lebron choked in 2011 after Wade led the team in scoring for those playoffs

[ShawkFactory]

That shows how bad Pippen was because he was 0/6 in getting FMVP votes, aka even a non-scoring rebounder got more FMVP votes than Pippen

:roll:

Nice spin. Props for that one.

[Hey Yo]

That shows how bad Pippen was because he was 0/6 in getting FMVP votes, aka even a non-scoring rebounder got more FMVP votes than Pippen

Naaaa.... it shows how stacked the Bulls were even with MJ playing like shit in games 4-6.

[3ba11]

it isn't until 2016 where we saw a sidekick drop 24-25 PPG





Tony Parker averaged 25 in the 07' Finals with FMVP, so Duncan received more scoring help than Jordan ever had

Isiah also received more scoring help because Dumars averaged 27/6/6 in the 89' Finals

Kobe averaged 27 in the 2002 Finals

Worthy averaged 24 in the 85' Finals and 87' Playoffs

Dr. J and Andrew Toney averaged 25 in the 82' Finals

McHale and Bird averaged 25 in the 86' Finals

Lebron received the most help because all his sidekicks averaged 25+ and outplayed MVP's or FMVP's (Kyrie destroyed MVP Curry and AD destroyed Joker, while Wade averaged 27 and outplayed FMVP Dirk - no one in history had this kind of help, aka sidekicks destroying league MVP's)

Everyone needed this kind of juggernaut scoring help except Jordan - you guys say that "scoring help isn't everything" but it actually IS everything because that's what everyone needed (scoring help)... the only guy that didn't need elite-scoring help was Jordan - he's the only guy where scoring help "isn't everything" - so you guys literally have it backwards.. scoring help was everything for everyone except Jordan








I'm not sure why you keep insisting that it is.





the thread title asks how many guys won with sidekicks that were never THAT GUY, so Lebron never did because Wade, AD and Kyrie have all been THAT GUY in their careers..

Magic obviously never did because of Kareem..

Ultimately, aside from a couple one-offs by centers (Hakeem and Duncan), only expert jumpshooters won without THAT GUY as a sidekick (sidekicks like Wiggins, Klay, Pippen, Jason Terry, Lowry, Pau)... Otoh, ball-dominators like Magic or Lebron needed Kareem/AD/Wade, or centers like Shaq needed Kobe, Wade or Lebron..







A lot of finals was like that.





No one did it more than twice except Jordan's 6 rings

So Jordan has 3 times as many Finals wins as anyone else without getting FMVP or 25 ppg from a sidekick

That's a clear-cut example of his GOAT level that no one else was remotely close to

[3ba11]

In all honesty, Klay Thompson, Scottie Pippen, James Worthy, to name a few, never or hadn't yet had a fair chance to be "that guy".


Pippen was gifted a 3-peat dynasty and 3-peat know-how before taking over the reigns, but he historically-choked in a 2nd Round loss.

And Worthy led the Lakers in scoring for the 87' Playoffs with 24 on 57% - this included 30 on 62% in the WCF where he destroyed the prime version of X-Man (25/9/4) that destroyed Pippen in the 92' ECSF.

Worthy also led the Lakers in scoring for the 87-91' Playoffs

So these guys had great chances and Worthy took advantage with FMVP and scoring leader for b2b title runs

Ultimately, everyone in history had teammates match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led every SERIES by an average of 14 ppg - so only MJ faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) for his entire career.

[Phoenix]

Ultimately, everyone in history had teammates match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ led every SERIES by an average of 14 ppg - so only MJ faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) for his entire career.

Sounds pretty sub-optimal.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


aside from a couple one-offs by Hakeem or Duncan, only expert jumpshooters won without THAT GUY for a sidekick

ball-dominators need more help because they can't carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume) and can't win organically (can't develop teammates, aka impose spot-up roles)

(a possible exception is isiah because dumars was never considered "that guy", despite getting 27/6/6 and fmvp in 89' Finals)

Since expert jumpshooters need the least help, they populate the top part of the top 10 list, followed by centers and ball-dominators (who need the most help)... so the top 10 is mj, kobe, bird, curry, russell, wilt, kareem, duncan, shaq, magic.. a lot of people put both magic/kareem in their top 5, but that's impossible due to a 5-4 Finals record, so the aforementioned rankings are a better reflection of their true ranking

[3ba11]

https://i.postimg.cc/HLPJdt1m/3nutball3.gif


I'm extremely confident that the edited thread cliffs above are an accurate summary of how each player type trends, based on the historical record of how they have actually trended

regarding my misread of curry - that's why he's goat-level and expert jumpshooters are the best skillset 8.- he proved me wrong while ball-dominators remain a fraud - you can't make a gif like that about anything i've said about lebron because i've never been wrong about him - see the OP of the "downfall of society" thread

[Phoenix]

I'm extremely confident that the edited thread cliffs above are an accurate summary of how each player type trends, based on the historical record of how they have actually trended

regarding my misread of curry - that's why he's goat-level and expert jumpshooters are the best skillset 8.- he proved me wrong while ball-dominators remain a fraud - you can't make a gif like that about anything i've said about lebron because i've never been wrong about him - see the OP of the "downfall of society" thread
https://i.postimg.cc/44Y4VV6C/3nutball1.gif
https://i.postimg.cc/xddkw47g/3nutball2.gif
https://i.postimg.cc/HLPJdt1m/3nutball3.gif

[3ba11]

https://i.postimg.cc/44Y4VV6C/3nutball1.gif
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It's funny that you guys project by thinking I would be affected by your cartoons and jim carrey

Anyway, generally speaking, only expert jumpshooters can win with sidekicks that were never THAT GUY

carry on

[Phoenix]

It's funny that you guys project by thinking I would be affected by your cartoons and jim carrey

Anyway, generally speaking, only expert jumpshooters can win with sidekicks that were never THAT GUY

carry on

https://i.postimg.cc/44Y4VV6C/3nutball1.gif
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[3ba11]

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Your face when 3ball hits you with the truth:


https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/227/248/614.gif



and your ultimate reaction:


https://media.tenor.com/eF9MaBIpYJMAAAAM/avenida-brasil-zez%C3%A9.gif

[Phoenix]

Your face when 3ball hits you with the truth:


https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/227/248/614.gif



and your ultimate reaction:


https://media.tenor.com/eF9MaBIpYJMAAAAM/avenida-brasil-zez%C3%A9.gif

Your threads and posts:
https://media.tenor.com/r3t0LfS0dCwAAAAd/toilet-meme.gif

And my face and reaction reading them:
https://media.tenor.com/vBwzKCD-nLEAAAAC/air-spray-ew.gif

[1987_Lakers]

https://i.postimg.cc/xddkw47g/3nutball2.gif

These are golden.

[1987_Lakers]

https://i.postimg.cc/44Y4VV6C/3nutball1.gif
https://i.postimg.cc/xddkw47g/3nutball2.gif
https://i.postimg.cc/HLPJdt1m/3nutball3.gif

:roll:

[Axe]

Damn, 3bot getting roasted again. And still he has retarded disciples here who deepthroat him so hard.