Kevin Johnson video and some other things....

[Kblaze8855]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/i0ttke

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zqfRC9GEyYE

Not the highest quality at all points(and youtube doesnt help) but lets see you get 3 minutes of prime mostly pre Barkley Kevin Johnson footage. Its mostly from old NBA action tapes, a few home videos, and other sources. Left out the Bulls 93 title video footage. Wanted more of his pre injury days.

Now....

Hes one of the few to lead a team past a Magic Johnson led team when Magic was actually playing. Moses Malone, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, and Kevin Johnson. Magic was hurt when they played the Pistons and got swept. Hamstring issue. Him and Magic are the only 20+ point 10+ assists 50% shooting players ever and both of them did it twice. Some choose to consider Tom Chambers the leader of those suns but its no different than Nash and Amare. Anyone giving Nash credit for the Suns should probably give KJ credit for his. Both had crazy talent to do what they did but not all talented teams come together so well..

Think these suns are great scorers? KJ was leading some of the best offensive teams anyone could hope to see. Hed led a 119ppg team one season. The brief "This day in history" clip in the video is from a game the Suns scored 173 points in regulation. One season they had 130 in 3 of the first 4 games of the season. Later that year they had 3 130+ point games in a 3 week stretch and dropped 138 points 3 days after the last of those. They topped 120 in 3 of the last 4 games of that season with a game of 141. They only went under 100 points in 3 games one season. Gave the warriors 154. They had 3 straight playoff games with over 130 points. KJ probably led the greatest offense of the last quarter century outside the early 80s Nuggets and Showtime(who never actually scored 119 a game as the Suns did).

When Nash went off in the 05 playoffs he had people saying it proved he was MVP. He put up 24 and 11 that playoff run. Kevin Johnson had long playoff runs(10 games or more 3 of them to the WCF) getting:

24/12
24/12(not a mistake he did it in 2 seasons)
27 and 10
25/9(shot 57% that run too)

And really he could have put up more assists but the Suns had an oldschool style of fastbreak. They didnt just run with the ball they broke out like wide recievers and had guys throwing full court outlet passes. In the video I showed clips from a Suns/heat game where Kevin did a lot of what im talking about. Get the rebound and toss it 80 feet for the layup or to a teammate who then gets the assist by hitting the open man. He might have averaged more assists if he kept the ball himself more on the break.

In the halfcourt he had a good bit of scoring responsibility. He didnt lead them in ppg but id say he was their best one on one scorer. Bit of a TJ ford and Wade hybrid. Always willing to pass but he could get to the basket at will.

And his defense. He wasnt an elite defender but he was great on the ball when he had to be. Even guarded Michael Jordan pretty well at times even though the bigger(and all D team level defender) Majerle was on the team. List of current points you could throw on Jordan is not long.

Im not saying hes top 30-50 all time as a few do but he sure as hell wasnt worse than Steve Nash.

http://www.nba.com/media/suns/kevin_johnson_190.jpg

Praise KJ.

[el_locoteee]

The best PG in Suns History, sorry Nash unless you win a title for them, you are #2.

[vincentda]

damn I wish I knew you were making this. I have footage and interview of him talking about his final game and how he got a dunk in and also his dunk on Robert Horry from earlier in the season.

[L.Kizzle]

Kevin Johnson is a forgotten great. One of my favorite players growing up between when I started watching ball. He was between top 5-10 from my earlier years of ball watching (1994-1997).


I probaly caught him right after he was leaving his prime but from what I remember he was still a good guard. Of course I've seen his highlights from the late 80's/early 90's when he was at his best. He was a top 5ive guard during that time competing with Magic/Isiah/Stockton and Timmy (this was before GP was an elite guard).


I'd probally rank him somewhere between 60-80 of the greatest players of all-time.

[Kblaze8855]

Ive had this footage for like 2 months putting together a clip or two here and there. Him, Mark Price, Rod Strickland, and Terrell Brandon are a few of the guys I always save anything on them I find. Just in case I feel like putitng something together. I didnt think to ask anyone because I almost never see clips of him. Figured there wasnt much to find.

I had 9 NBA action episodes from 92 but I lost them. Good bit of suns highlights there. Almost just gave up on making him one but decided 3 minutes would be enough.

[Kblaze8855]

He was a top 5ive guard during that time competing with Magic/Isiah/Stockton and Timmy (this was before GP was an elite guard).

Too bad he had to come along with so many great guards. He put up 20/12/4 and shot 50+ from the field and didnt even make the all star team one year. And not like his team was bad or he was hurt. He played 81 games and they won 55. And the odd thing is Magic didnt even play in that years all star game.

[L.Kizzle]

Too bad he had to come along with so many great guards. He put up 20/12/4 and shot 50+ from the field and didnt even make the all star team one year. And not like his team was bad or he was hurt. He played 81 games and they won 55. And the odd thing is Magic didnt even play in that years all star game.
I think Terry Porter got in that season.

[Chalkmaze]

I think Terry Porter got in that season.

Who was also a great player. Not anywhere as athletic or fast as KJ, but still very effective.

[Kblaze8855]

I have nothing but good things to say about Terry Porter. Very underrated pointguard. I always felt he carried the Blazers in the clutch more than Drexler.

[Agent_Zero]

Great mix Blaze. KJ was definitely the man in his prime. And, yeah, locotee, he is the best suns pg ever.

[Richie2k6]

That was a good mix, I hope Glove sees this. Truely an underrated player.

[dejordan]

that was nice. i remembered the dunk over dream in 94, but not that big time throw down over eaton. that one had some shine on it.

[Glove_20]

:applause:

Amazing player. At his peak he used to outplay players like John Stockton (who was also at his peak around there). Was highly explosive. Was as good as anyone penetrating and a great finisher. No one quite like him, but Tony Parker comes to mind. Always went with full force, and yeah, was a great penetrator.

Even though he didn't have the 3pt shot numbers, he was a great shooter. Had a deadly mid-range jumper. So he would either finish it off pentetrating, or pull up and shoot that mid-range jumper.

Defensively he was also underrated. Better than most give him credit (average). Was quick and could guard quick little guards, didn't get beat off the dribble too often, and in the Finals with Jordan, he forced Jordan to shoot and not drive.

And KBlaze brung in some other good points on him.


He was really the PG you wanted. Scored a lot (20+) and with high %s (50+). Scored as well as any PG. Then he also passed as well as anyone. He createsd his passing by penetrating and giving open looks to teammates. And then he also was a solid defender. He was also known for improving teammates, Tom Chambers himself said, "KJ made the player I am today" when Chambers was at his Peak in Phoenix. And yeah, the Suns had a great offense back then, and KJ created that amazing pace.


At his peak he was better than Kidd, Nash, or Stockton, And overall, I'd take him over Kidd, or Nash, Stockton has a large career edge, so maybe he gets the nod over KJ.

But he is definately Top 40. I don't want to go over that too much, GMAT would explain that better than anyone in the world, and I mean that literally.





Anyways, nice video, remembering THE most underrated player of all-time by far.

[-primetime-]

:applause:

Amazing player. At his peak he used to outplay players like John Stockton (who was also at his peak around there). Was highly explosive. Was as good as anyone penetrating and a great finisher. No one quite like him, but Tony Parker comes to mind. Always went with full force, and yeah, was a great penetrator.

Even though he didn't have the 3pt shot numbers, he was a great shooter. Had a deadly mid-range jumper. So he would either finish it off pentetrating, or pull up and shoot that mid-range jumper.

Defensively he was also underrated. Better than most give him credit (average). Was quick and could guard quick little guards, didn't get beat off the dribble too often, and in the Finals with Jordan, he forced Jordan to shoot and not drive.

And KBlaze brung in some other good points on him.


He was really the PG you wanted. Scored a lot (20+) and with high %s (50+). Scored as well as any PG. Then he also passed as well as anyone. He createsd his passing by penetrating and giving open looks to teammates. And then he also was a solid defender. He was also known for improving teammates, Tom Chambers himself said, "KJ made the player I am today" when Chambers was at his Peak in Phoenix. And yeah, the Suns had a great offense back then, and KJ created that amazing pace.


At his peak he was better than Kidd, Nash, or Stockton, And overall, I'd take him over Kidd, or Nash, Stockton has a large career edge, so maybe he gets the nod over KJ.

But he is definately Top 40. I don't want to go over that too much, GMAT would explain that better than anyone in the world, and I mean that literally.





Anyways, nice video, remembering THE most underrated player of all-time by far.
wrong

wrong

wrong

Nash is the leader of his team and has won 2 MVPs....Nash is amazing

KJ might be under-rated, but lets not over-rate him

he is not a top 40 player....and imo he is not top 50

[Glove_20]

wrong

wrong

wrong

Nash is the leader of his team and has won 2 MVPs....Nash is amazing

KJ might be under-rated, but lets not over-rate him

he is not a top 40 player....and imo he is not top 50

No he is definately a Top 40 player. Nash might be great right now at his peak, but Kevin Johnson was a little better. Kidd was never on KJ's level, and Stockton, though also great, always got abused by KJ when they played.


Like I told you, I'll start a KJ vs. Kidd thread when GMAT is around, and you'll see too. I could argue it right now if I wanted to, but not as well as with GMAT.

[L.Kizzle]

Glove, you say at KJ's peak he was better the Stock, Kidd, Nash, ect. But what seperates his peak from players like Fat Lever, Tim Hardaway or somebody like that?


Those guys had some pretty good 2-3 season stretches.

[Glove_20]

Glove, you say at KJ's peak he was better the Stock, Kidd, Nash, ect. But what seperates his peak from players like Fat Lever, Tim Hardaway or somebody like that?


Those guys had some pretty good 2-3 season stretches.
I don't think so. Which one of them do you think had a stronger peak?

And don't forget that KJ's prime was from 1989-1997, he wasn't one of those Bill Walton type players. He had a nice 9 year stretch where he put nearly20/10/50% average. If he did that in a 9 year stretch, you can just imagine what he did in 4 year peak.

[Chalkmaze]

KJ was was too injured for much of his career to be ranked where you are trying to put him, and you know it Glove.

92-93 PHO 49
93-94 PHO 67
94-95 PHO 47
95-96 PHO 56
96-97 PHO 70
97-98 PHO 50

[L.Kizzle]

I don't think so. Which one of them do you think had a stronger peak?

And don't forget that KJ's prime was from 1989-1997, he wasn't one of those Bill Walton type players. He had a nice 9 year stretch where he put nearly20/10/50% average. If he did that in a 9 year stretch, you can just imagine what he did in 4 year peak.
I'm talking about PEAK not career wise. You said Kevins PEAK was better then Stockton, Nash and Kidd.


So what about Fat Lever and Tim Hardaway's peaks, as they bith had a nice 3 or so year run like KJ. Where would you rank their peaks along with KJ and the others?

[i seen hippos]

I think he's the most forgot about player of his generation.

You ask any casual fan under 20 and they won't know who he is. He's the only NBA great in the last 25 years you can say that about probably. Really weird too considering he wasn't boring to watch or anything.

Glove did say he played with a lot of great guards, but still. The rest of them are all remembered.

[Glove_20]

KJ was was too injured for much of his career to be ranked where you are trying to put him, and you know it Glove.

92-93 PHO 49
93-94 PHO 67
94-95 PHO 47
95-96 PHO 56
96-97 PHO 70
97-98 PHO 50

Shaq's games per season is lower than KJ's. Wilt's games per season is lower than KJ's. Tiny's games per season is lower than KJ's. And there are many more legends who's games per season is lower than KJ's. Yet I don't see them ever get that. Wilt is on ISH's spot number 2, where was that argument for him. It never occurs. It should, it should occur even against KJ. But it shouldn't be that strong to take him off, when other greats are injured even more.


And just remember one thing. Kevin Johnson never has missd a playoff game. Meaning when it counts, he is there. And if your a team that wants to make a championship run, KJ's injuries shouldn't hurt you too much.

[L.Kizzle]

I think he's the most forgot about player of his generation.

You ask any casual fan under 20 and they won't know who he is. He's the only NBA great in the last 25 years you can say that about probably. Really weird too considering he wasn't boring to watch or anything.

Glove did say he played with a lot of great guards, but still. The rest of them are all remembered.
You could probally say the same about Mitch Richmond.

[Glove_20]

I think he's the most forgot about player of his generation.

You ask any casual fan under 20 and they won't know who he is. He's the only NBA great in the last 25 years you can say that about probably. Really weird too considering he wasn't boring to watch or anything.

Glove did say he played with a lot of great guards, but still. The rest of them are all remembered.
It was apparent how forgetton all his career. HE continously did not receive the respect he deserved

Can someone explain why Eddie Jones got on the All-Star team over him? Or why he was never selected to an All-NBA team in 1997.

[Glove_20]

You could probally say the same about Mitch Richmond.
KJ was even forgotten by the award people and the voters and everything.

Its because he is the most underrated player of all-time.

[Kblaze8855]

Top 40 all time is a bit much. You gotta throw him over guys like Dave cowens who led 68 win team, 2 title teams, and won MVPs. It can be argued but only because when you get to 35-40 a lot of the players were never super elite. Hes in a really really really wide range of guys on the same basic level(everyone from like 40-70 are still legends and hall of famers). his biggest supporters will put him closer to 40 and others closer to 70. but its still the same basic level of player.

Isnt just a numbering issue. Top 5 is more ahead of top 30 than top 30 is ahead of top 60.

[Glove_20]

Top 40 all time is a bit much. You gotta throw him over guys like Dave cowens who led 68 win team, 2 title teams, and won MVPs. It can be argued but only because when you get to 35-40 a lot of the players were never super elite. Hes in a really really really wide range of guys on the same basic level(everyone from like 40-70 are still legends and hall of famers). his biggest supporters will put him closer to 40 and others closer to 70. but its still the same basic level of player.

Isnt just a numbering issue. Top 5 is more ahead of top 30 than top 30 is ahead of top 60.
Actually his biggest supporter will put him in Top 30 (GMAT). And he'll actually do a great job arguing it, I've never seen any debate for any player better than GMAT.


But no, Top 40 isn't too bad. He should be around the Mid 30s. High or low is also ok. But he is in the 30s. Yeah but I agree, its still almost the same level of player. Did that All-Time draft, no point in picking 40 something vs. 60 something.

[L.Kizzle]

Shaq's games per season is lower than KJ's. Wilt's games per season is lower than KJ's. Tiny's games per season is lower than KJ's. And there are many more legends who's games per season is lower than KJ's. Yet I don't see them ever get that. Wilt is on ISH's spot number 2, where was that argument for him. It never occurs. It should, it should occur even against KJ. But it shouldn't be that strong to take him off, when other greats are injured even more.


And just remember one thing. Kevin Johnson never has missd a playoff game. Meaning when it counts, he is there. And if your a team that wants to make a championship run, KJ's injuries shouldn't hurt you too much.
Wilt only had one injury season. He played 12 games that season. Other then that, his lowest is 73 (the season he got traded from San Fran to Phily)

[Glove_20]

Wilt only had one injury season. He played 12 games that season. Other then that, his lowest is 73 (the season he got traded from San Fran to Phily)
Then it wasn't Wilt I was thinking of. But there are some greats, with less games per year than Kevin Johnson, yet you rarely see an argument regarding their injuries. And for some reason, thats all you see for KJ. I mean, it should be held against him, but not to the extent of Bill Walton. He wasn't that bad. Not even close to that bad.


And really, never missing a playoff game, thats an impressive thing in itself.

[-primetime-]

he is not top 40....period

just stop now glove....for your own sake

[Glove_20]

he is not top 40....period

just stop now glove....for your own sake
Ok Mr. "KJ isn't even close to Kidd"
or "Kidd is way better than KJ"

You obviuosly don't know what you are talking about.

[Jailblazers7]

Top 40 all time is a bit much. You gotta throw him over guys like Dave cowens who led 68 win team, 2 title teams, and won MVPs. It can be argued but only because when you get to 35-40 a lot of the players were never super elite. Hes in a really really really wide range of guys on the same basic level(everyone from like 40-70 are still legends and hall of famers). his biggest supporters will put him closer to 40 and others closer to 70. but its still the same basic level of player.

Isnt just a numbering issue. Top 5 is more ahead of top 30 than top 30 is ahead of top 60.

I was about to state this earlier. There have been so many really good players that never quite achieved that level of greatness wether it be Cowens, KJ, KG, Mchale, Worthy, etc. over the years that can be put in that 40-70 range. The really isnt that much seperation between these players so it really comes down to personal preference and not as much cut from stone facts and stats. One person could be a huge Worthy fan and put him at say #38 while they put KJ at #55 because he never really xared much about him. Another person could just switch that based on the same reasons.

[Glove_20]

I was about to state this earlier. There have been so many really good players that never quite achieved that level of greatness wether it be Cowens, KJ, KG, Mchale, Worthy, etc. over the years that can be put in that 40-70 range. The really isnt that much seperation between these players so it really comes down to personal preference and not as much cut from stone facts and stats. One person could be a huge Worthy fan and put him at say #38 while they put KJ at #55 because he never really xared much about him. Another person could just switch that based on the same reasons.
But when you actually start comparing players head to head, debating, arguing, and everything, KJ is going to stick in the Top 40. The seperation isn't great, for many of them, but for some through 40-70 there is a lot of seperation.

For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.

[Chalkmaze]

Shaq's games per season is lower than KJ's. Wilt's games per season is lower than KJ's. Tiny's games per season is lower than KJ's. And there are many more legends who's games per season is lower than KJ's. Yet I don't see them ever get that. Wilt is on ISH's spot number 2, where was that argument for him. It never occurs. It should, it should occur even against KJ. But it shouldn't be that strong to take him off, when other greats are injured even more.


And just remember one thing. Kevin Johnson never has missd a playoff game. Meaning when it counts, he is there. And if your a team that wants to make a championship run, KJ's injuries shouldn't hurt you too much.

The difference is that he didn't dominate anywhere near the way they did, he was on par with a lot of guys, Isiah, Magic, Stockton, Porter, Mark Price.. etc... Frankly, I do mark Shaq down for his health issues, but when he's been healthy, he's like someone from another planet, he was obviously much better than 99+% of the players. Not to mention all the awards, and rings, statistics those guys had. We're arguing entire careers, here... The arguement for him being healthy for the playoffs doesn't mean much too me... If he hadn't been healthy, then we wouldn't even be talking about him at all right now, because then it would really seem far-fetched.

And Wilt was not constantly injured, he had one year he missed a bunch of games, not to mention that he played more minutes per game than any other player.

There's too many other good players out there to put KJ so high. If KJ had been healthier, had a longer career, or won a bunch of rings, MVP's etc. then it would have been a different story.

KJ is quietly under-rated because he didn't play long enough, and got injured so much... kinda like Bernard King or something. But at the time he was playing, KJ got lots of notoriety, there were just other players that were about as good as he was that got further in the playoffs, and stayed healthy. KJ's health is what worked against him getting awards and things, but people knew he was one of the best when healthy.

[Jailblazers7]

But when you actually start comparing players head to head, debating, arguing, and everything, KJ is going to stick in the Top 40. The seperation isn't great, for many of them, but for some through 40-70 there is a lot of seperation.

For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.

Im not all that knowledgable on either player so I cant really argue and see the seperation but i think it is the time effect. People 25 and under wont really know that much about Tiny but the one thing they do know and what stands out is him leading the league in points and assists in the same year. That is quite a feat to accomplish and people will often base their reasoning on that little information.

[Kblaze8855]

Thing with this is every player from 35 and down has some flaw that keeps them that low. Something someone good with words who knows not to come off too crazy or aggressive could point out. For examples...Dave Cowens, bob Mcadoo, Pistol Pete, and Nique. Those are guys people might argue for in this range.

Cowens was arguably not the best player on his own team even as MVP. Hondo had insane numbers and got the love at the time from Boston. And Jojo White got him for a finals MVP too. Added to that he only had 5 healthy all star seasons.

Mcadoo had a brief prime and was a role player(important one but still) by the time he won anything important.

Pistol Pete never won anything period.

Nique would be called just a scorer who never led a team as close to a title as KJ and never beat a team as good as the showtime lakers KJ beat.


All of that is true. The guys outside the elite are there for a reason. They were great....but didnt do anything to seperate themselves like the true all time elites did.

Because of it they dont have much one can use to dismiss a guy like KJ who was well rounded, with great numbers, and won a good bit(for a non all time elite).

But to put him that high you have to go against a lot of the usual standards people rank players by. Have to dismiss MVPs....titles...guys who had crazy high peaks but got hurt...innovators...all nba teams...reputation.

KJ did juuuuuuuust enough to earn mention in that long list that comes after 30 but before 100 but to put him closer to 30 than 100 takes a lot of work and a strong desire to put him as high as possible with no concern for the greatness or respect owed to a lot of legends.

Its easier to say "KJ is top 30-40" than to explain "If hes top 30-40 how come Tim Hardaway/Mark Price/Chris Mullin arent when they were considered on the same level in their primes?"

Its the biggest problem with ranking modern(even kinda modern) players so high. There are always guys we remember who were considered just as good....but dont get that credit now.

KJ is one of my favorite players of the 80s/90s but in all honesty....him at his peak vs Spre at his...Sprewell was probably considered the better player. I wouldnt say so. But in the 90s and late 80s KJ didnt seperate himself in the eye of the public from plenty of guys who nobody would dream of ranking this high.

[Glove_20]

Im not all that knowledgable on either player so I cant really argue and see the seperation but i think it is the time effect. People 25 and under wont really know that much about Tiny but the one thing they do know and what stands out is him leading the league in points and assists in the same year. That is quite a feat to accomplish and people will often base their reasoning on that little information.

Yeah exactly. They just go off with little reasoning or information, and just see that he led the points and assits in the same year, nothing else.

But if you actually looked closely, Tiny is overrated. And he really isn't in the same tier as a great PG like Kevin Johnson

[L.Kizzle]

But when you actually start comparing players head to head, debating, arguing, and everything, KJ is going to stick in the Top 40. The seperation isn't great, for many of them, but for some through 40-70 there is a lot of seperation.

For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.
Nate the Skate is a better player then KJ. I'll admit Tiny is overrated as KJ is underrated. They were both injured a ton during their career's (Tiny not as much as KJ) but when healthy, Tiny's numbers and acomplishments were better. KJ had better teams, as Tiny played with bums is Kansas City/Omaha

[Glove_20]

The difference is that he didn't dominate anywhere near the way they did, he was on par with a lot of guys, Isiah, Magic, Stockton, Porter, Mark Price.. etc... Frankly, I do mark Shaq down for his health issues, but when he's been healthy, he's like someone from another planet, he was obviously much better than 99+% of the players. Not to mention all the awards, and rings, statistics those guys had. We're arguing entire careers, here... The arguement for him being healthy for the playoffs doesn't mean much too me... If he hadn't been healthy, then we wouldn't even be talking about him at all right now, because then it would really seem far-fetched.

And Wilt was not constantly injured, he had one year he missed a bunch of games, not to mention that he played more minutes per game than any other player.

There's too many other good players out there to put KJ so high. If KJ had been healthier, had a longer career, or won a bunch of rings, MVP's etc. then it would have been a different story.

KJ is quietly under-rated because he didn't play long enough, and got injured so much... kinda like Bernard King or something. But at the time he was playing, KJ got lots of notoriety, there were just other players that were about as good as he was that got further in the playoffs, and stayed healthy. KJ's health is what worked against him getting awards and things, but people knew he was one of the best when healthy.

Elgin Baylor is another legend who's games per year was less than KJ. I think I confused him with Wilt. Yet I always see Elgin at the top.


But yeah, I could see injuries as an argument against KJ, but not "No shot because of that". Because it wasn't that bad. He did though have 9 prime years. Long as most greats, and his consider average, so he was able to play at a high level long enough.

But yeah, KJ also dominated, there is no doubt about that. And also, Tiny Archibald, who was way more injury prone, still shows up in All-Time arguments, but not KJ. So it was more than injuries. He is just generally underrated.

And yeah, with him being underrated, awards were tough to get as well.

[Kblaze8855]

For example, I see Tiny Archibald ranked over Kevin Johnson sometimes. Actually most of the time. And I am still trying to see how it is "close". I don't see it.

Who the better player is isnt really my concern but I can tell you why I think many would rank Tiny higher.....


He peaked higher. 34/11 and second in MVP voting.
He didnt win as much in his youth but he didnt have the teammates. Ive heard his old coach mention that they had among the worst teams in the league and thats why he had to do everything. He played all 48 minutes like 50-60 times that season. He was on a terrible team that needed him. Not his fault they lost.
Even though his rep is as an injured player he only played under 70 games 5 times before age 34 and 2 of them were 68 and 69 games.
Even with injury issues he was an all star 6 times to KJs 3.
He was all nba first team 3 times to KJs none.
He scored more.
He was very good for the celtics(3 of his 6 all star games were with Boston). Many consider him the second best player on the 81 title team and he was the locker room leader and the captian of the team not Bird. He was also the all star MVP that year. his boston days are overlooked.

No matter if hes better or not...he did a good bit in his career. And hes got enough of those usual key features that get you noticed. He has a major record(only points and assists leader). He was nearly MVP(TSN voted him MVP one year). He won a title as a key player.

Hes got a lot going for him.

[L.Kizzle]

Elgin Baylor is another legend who's games per year was less than KJ. I think I confused him with Wilt. Yet I always see Elgin at the top.


But yeah, I could see injuries as an argument against KJ, but not "No shot because of that". Because it wasn't that bad. He did though have 9 prime years. Long as most greats, and his consider average, so he was able to play at a high level long enough.

But yeah, KJ also dominated, there is no doubt about that. And also, Tiny Archibald, who was way more injury prone, still shows up in All-Time arguments, but not KJ. So it was more than injuries. He is just generally underrated.

And yeah, with him being underrated, awards were tough to get as well.
Elgin only really had two injury season where he missed a lot of games (not counting his last 2 seasons where he played a combined 11 games). The season he only played 48 games he was also in the Marines so he could only play games (either during the week or on the weekend, can't remember)

[Kblaze8855]

Elgin Baylor is another legend who's games per year was less than KJ. I think I confused him with Wilt. Yet I always see Elgin at the top.

Just so you know....

Elgin played before the league bumped up its games per season. The NBA only played 72 games his first couple years. Then it moved to 79. I think it stopped at like 80 and 81 too. He didnt have an injured season till he was 30. In 62 he wasnt hurt. He was in the Army and they called him to serve. They only let him play 2 times a week. Thats why his numbers were so insane that year(38/19). He wanted to make sure they won every game he got to play. he had played 12 of his 14 seasons before he got a major injury.

Edit.

Beat me to it.

Lot of the old guys have some odd set of circumstances that has them playing fewer games than guys do today if you just look at the number played and dont check it beyond that.

[Rab]

KJ is my all time favorite Sun along with Rex Chapman.

He was one of the best penetrators I have ever seen at the PG position. I remember watching him play while I was growing up and thinking to myself that he could not be stopped when he really wanted to get to the rim.

Also strange to me to see them playing at good ol Veteran's Memorial.

[Glove_20]

Thing with this is every player from 35 and down has some flaw that keeps them that low. Something someone good with words who knows not to come off too crazy or aggressive could point out. For examples...Dave Cowens, bob Mcadoo, Pistol Pete, and Nique. Those are guys people might argue for in this range.

Cowens was arguably not the best player on his own team even as MVP. Hondo had insane numbers and got the love at the time from Boston. And Jojo White got him for a finals MVP too. Added to that he only had 5 healthy all star seasons.

Mcadoo had a brief prime and was a role player(important one but still) by the time he won anything important.

Pistol Pete never won anything period.

Nique would be called just a scorer who never led a team as close to a title as KJ and never beat a team as good as the showtime lakers KJ beat.


All of that is true. The guys outside the elite are there for a reason. They were great....but didnt do anything to seperate themselves like the true all time elites did.

Because of it they dont have much one can use to dismiss a guy like KJ who was well rounded, with great numbers, and won a good bit(for a non all time elite).

But to put him that high you have to go against a lot of the usual standards people rank players by. Have to dismiss MVPs....titles...guys who had crazy high peaks but got hurt...innovators...all nba teams...reputation.

KJ did juuuuuuuust enough to earn mention in that long list that comes after 30 but before 100 but to put him closer to 30 than 100 takes a lot of work and a strong desire to put him as high as possible with no concern for the greatness or respect owed to a lot of legends.

Its easier to say "KJ is top 30-40" than to explain "If hes top 30-40 how come Tim Hardaway/Mark Price/Chris Mullin arent when they were considered on the same level in their primes?"

Its the biggest problem with ranking modern(even kinda modern) players so high. There are always guys we remember who were considered just as good....but dont get that credit now.

KJ is one of my favorite players of the 80s/90s but in all honesty....him at his peak vs Spre at his...Sprewell was probably considered the better player. I wouldnt say so. But in the 90s and late 80s KJ didnt seperate himself in the eye of the public from plenty of guys who nobody would dream of ranking this high.

I see what your saying on there isn't too much seperation between players after 30. After a little bit, it goes from "great" to "very good". And that very good is the 30-100 you were talking about.

But in that "very good" KJ sticks out. The only thing he was lacking was a ring. But everything else, he is nearly perfect. He had some injury problems, but so have many other stars, and his wasn't "that" bad. I think he only had 4 injury seasons as well. Seasons where he missed 16 games or more. Not that bad.

And once again, I really think the fact that he has played every playoff game makes up for a lot of it. He has been there when it counts. If your a team wanting to win the championship, having KJ is perfect. He will be there for you in the playoffs, when the "wins" and "losses" count the most. And he will perform at a high level. One of the guy's that stepped it up in the playoffs.

But bottom line, KJ really sticks out in the "Very Good 30-100" section. He really reallly is good.

[Glove_20]

Who the better player is isnt really my concern but I can tell you why I think many would rank Tiny higher.....


He peaked higher. 34/11 and second in MVP voting.
He didnt win as much in his youth but he didnt have the teammates. Ive heard his old coach mention that they had among the worst teams in the league and thats why he had to do everything. He played all 48 minutes like 50-60 times that season. He was on a terrible team that needed him. Not his fault they lost.
Even though his rep is as an injured player he only played under 70 games 5 times before age 34 and 2 of them were 68 and 69 games.
Even with injury issues he was an all star 6 times to KJs 3.
He was all nba first team 3 times to KJs none.
He scored more.
He was very good for the celtics(3 of his 6 all star games were with Boston). Many consider him the second best player on the 81 title team and he was the locker room leader and the captian of the team not Bird. He was also the all star MVP that year. his boston days are overlooked.

No matter if hes better or not...he did a good bit in his career. And hes got enough of those usual key features that get you noticed. He has a major record(only points and assists leader). He was nearly MVP(TSN voted him MVP one year). He won a title as a key player.

Hes got a lot going for him.


34/11? Thats great, but he didn't even make playoffs.

Actually, he only made the playoffs once in his prime. 1 playoff app. in his prime

Honestly, I don't know how someone can rank a player who has been to the playoffs once in his prime, over a player who has been to the playoffs every year besides his rookie year where he only played 28 games for his team because of a trade.

Sure he had a bad starcast around him but,

1. He dominated the ball too much for them to even get involve or improve


Gary Payton in 2000, he had a bad starcast, worse than some of Archibald's, yet he was able to take his team to the playoffs.



The difference also between both of them is KJ makes his teammates better. Where Archibald doesn't, and that also explains his lack of good starcasts around him. Eddie Johnson and Tom Chambers both had their best years in Phoenix. And Chambers even sadi "KJ made me the player I am today" at his peak.


1 playoff appearance in his prime, no matter how bad your starcast is, thats just unacceptable. He was also traded to 3 DIFFERENT teams in his prime, yet still 1 playoff app in his prime.



As for Tiny's numbers. The main reason he put up such high numbers was because he controlled the ball all the time. His didn't think too highly of his teammates, and always had the ball, bringing up his overall numbers.

Seriously, whats the point of all the great numbers if your team isn't winning? 34/11, thats great, but you don't even make it to the playoffs.

Its not that hard to put up good numbers, when you dominate the ball, and actually lessen your chances of winning, while putting up good numbers.





There more advantages for KJ, but I think you get the point.

[Kblaze8855]

He dominated the ball too much? While looking for footage for this I watched an NBA video called "Below the rim" on the all time best little men. tiny was in there. his coach and teammates didnt seem to think he dominated the ball too much. They seemed to think he did as asked. His coach flat out said he asked him to do everything to make up for the lack of talent on the team. I tend to side with the people who played with and coached him. Sure he had a scorers mentality but its hard to blame him for doing as asked or to say he hurt his teammates when ive heard his teammates say otherwise and talk up how good he was at finding them.

[L.Kizzle]

34/11? Thats great, but he didn't even make playoffs.

Actually, he only made the playoffs once in his prime. 1 playoff app. in his prime

Honestly, I don't know how someone can rank a player who has been to the playoffs once in his prime, over a player who has been to the playoffs every year besides his rookie year where he only played 28 games for his team because of a trade.

Sure he had a bad starcast around him but,

1. He dominated the ball too much for them to even get involve or improve


Gary Payton in 2000, he had a bad starcast, worse than some of Archibald's, yet he was able to take his team to the playoffs.



The difference also between both of them is KJ makes his teammates better. Where Archibald doesn't, and that also explains his lack of good starcasts around him. Eddie Johnson and Tom Chambers both had their best years in Phoenix. And Chambers even sadi "KJ made me the player I am today" at his peak.


1 playoff appearance in his prime, no matter how bad your starcast is, thats just unacceptable. He was also traded to 3 DIFFERENT teams in his prime, yet still 1 playoff app in his prime.



As for Tiny's numbers. The main reason he put up such high numbers was because he controlled the ball all the time. His didn't think too highly of his teammates, and always had the ball, bringing up his overall numbers.

Seriously, whats the point of all the great numbers if your team isn't winning? 34/11, thats great, but you don't even make it to the playoffs.

Its not that hard to put up good numbers, when you dominate the ball, and actually lessen your chances of winning, while putting up good numbers.





There more advantages for KJ, but I think you get the point.
But when he did get players around him, he still put numbers (though not as great), made All-NBA and All-Star teams, won All-Star MVP and helped Boston to a title.

[GMATCallahan]

I think Terry Porter got in that season.

Actually, Porter made the All-Star team in 1991, as one of five points guards on the Western Conference's roster. The others were K.J. and Magic (who started), plus Stockton and Tim Hardaway. Here are highlights from that game, with a bizarre ending involving K.J.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl8Nnsz9bKY

And here's the box score (K.J. recorded a game-high 7 assists, 3 of which you can see in that video):

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/all_star_game/1991.htm

In 1989, the West featured one point guard in Stockton (after Magic withdrew due to injury) and four centers. Olajuwon was a superstar and the retiring Abdul-Jabbar was the sentimental choice, but even Mark Eaton and Kevin Duckworth somehow received the nod over K.J. Eaton was a great defender and Duckworth was a talented offensive center, but neither was a complete player and one would have thought that K.J. would have at least been Magic's replacement. He was indeed perennially underrated.

Ironically, the 6'1" K.J. dunked on both Eaton and Duckworth that season. Here was his climb-and-slide-down-the-mountain-man-ladder dunk on the 7'4" Eaton:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEoMsHHfa4

Here's the box score for the 1989 All-Star Game:

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/all_star_game/1989.htm

[GMATCallahan]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/i0ttke

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zqfRC9GEyYE

Not the highest quality at all points(and youtube doesnt help) but lets see you get 3 minutes of prime mostly pre Barkley Kevin Johnson footage. Its mostly from old NBA action tapes, a few home videos, and other sources. Left out the Bulls 93 title video footage. Wanted more of his pre injury days.

Now....

Hes one of the few to lead a team past a Magic Johnson led team when Magic was actually playing. Moses Malone, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, and Kevin Johnson. Magic was hurt when they played the Pistons and got swept. Hamstring issue. Him and Magic are the only 20+ point 10+ assists 50% shooting players ever and both of them did it twice. Some choose to consider Tom Chambers the leader of those suns but its no different than Nash and Amare. Anyone giving Nash credit for the Suns should probably give KJ credit for his. Both had crazy talent to do what they did but not all talented teams come together so well..

Think these suns are great scorers? KJ was leading some of the best offensive teams anyone could hope to see. Hed led a 119ppg team one season. The brief "This day in history" clip in the video is from a game the Suns scored 173 points in regulation. One season they had 130 in 3 of the first 4 games of the season. Later that year they had 3 130+ point games in a 3 week stretch and dropped 138 points 3 days after the last of those. They topped 120 in 3 of the last 4 games of that season with a game of 141. They only went under 100 points in 3 games one season. Gave the warriors 154. They had 3 straight playoff games with over 130 points. KJ probably led the greatest offense of the last quarter century outside the early 80s Nuggets and Showtime(who never actually scored 119 a game as the Suns did).

When Nash went off in the 05 playoffs he had people saying it proved he was MVP. He put up 24 and 11 that playoff run. Kevin Johnson had long playoff runs(10 games or more 3 of them to the WCF) getting:

24/12
24/12(not a mistake he did it in 2 seasons)
27 and 10
25/9(shot 57% that run too)

And really he could have put up more assists but the Suns had an oldschool style of fastbreak. They didnt just run with the ball they broke out like wide recievers and had guys throwing full court outlet passes. In the video I showed clips from a Suns/heat game where Kevin did a lot of what im talking about. Get the rebound and toss it 80 feet for the layup or to a teammate who then gets the assist by hitting the open man. He might have averaged more assists if he kept the ball himself more on the break.

In the halfcourt he had a good bit of scoring responsibility. He didnt lead them in ppg but id say he was their best one on one scorer. Bit of a TJ ford and Wade hybrid. Always willing to pass but he could get to the basket at will.

And his defense. He wasnt an elite defender but he was great on the ball when he had to be. Even guarded Michael Jordan pretty well at times even though the bigger(and all D team level defender) Majerle was on the team. List of current points you could throw on Jordan is not long.

Im not saying hes top 30-50 all time as a few do but he sure as hell wasnt worse than Steve Nash.

http://www.nba.com/media/suns/kevin_johnson_190.jpg

Praise KJ.

Great video, thanks a lot for posting it. I'd been waiting for someone to compile an extensive K.J. montage.

[AppleNader]

GMAT, do you have any photos of KJ on Dream Team II? I can't find any on google

[GMATCallahan]

One advantage that K.J. would hold over Archibald is that he was a better shooter and he shot superior field goal percentages. Archibald's were pretty effective (career .467), but K.J. was extremely efficient for a point guard who also happened to be a dominant scorer (career .493, with three full seasons above .500, two others at .499, and another at .496). K.J. was also the more prolific playmaker (career 9.1 assists to Archibald's 7.4), the more productive rebounder (career 3.4 rebounds to Archibald's 2.3), and the somewhat better free throw shooter (career .841 to Archibald's .810).

Here's a February 1991 article from the New York Times that quotes Archibald on K.J. and also compares the two rather extensively. I'll copy it for your reading pleasure.

PRO BASKETBALL; Speedy Johnson Races to the Top
GOLDAPER, SAM. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Feb 10, 1991. pg. A.6

He is nearly 25 years old, looks younger and has an altar boy demeanor. He is earning $1,750,000 this season and will reach $2,750,000 in 1995 as part of his seven-year, $15 million contract. Not bad for someone who grew up in the poor section of Sacramento, Calif., thinking baseball rather than basketball.

He is Kevin Johnson, K. J to some, the point guard of blinding speed, quickness, athleticism, passing ability and penetration for the Phoenix Suns. He is also the starting point guard for the Western Conference in today's National Basketball Association All-Star Game in Charlotte, N.C.

While Johnson has gained increasing individual recognition, he has been even more impressive as a part of the team resurgence of the Suns, who have risen from 28 victories in 1987-88 to become a title contender in the last three seasons.

"He has meant everything to this team," said Cotton Fitzsimmons, who took over as the Suns' coach for the 1988-89 season.

That was the season Johnson gained membership in the exclusive 20-10 club by averaging 20.4 points and 12.2 assists a game. He was in lofty company: Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson and Nate Archibald are the only other players to have accomplished the feat in the history of the N.B.A. He did it again last year and is well on his way to a reprise again this season, averaging 22.2 points (14th in the league), 10.1 assists (4th) and 2.5 steals (5th) after 46 games.

Johnson, who prefers using "we," instead of "I," would rather not discuss being a member of that illustrious club.

But when pressed, he did.

"It wasn't my goal; it's just something that occurred," Johnson said. "My goal is always for the team to have a successful season. Magic and Isiah are my contemporaries and they have championship rings. So does Robertson and Archibald. If I want to be considered in their category, I've got to get a ring. That's how I look at it."

Johnson is often compared with outstanding players past and present, and the same names keep coming up. An informal survey of several players, coaches and general managers produced opinions that the right-handed Sun guard can penetrate like Magic Johnson, is as quick with the ball as John Stockton, and is as good with his left hand as Larry Bird.

But the name that surfaced most often in the comparisons was that of Nate (Tiny) Archibald, the only player ever to have led the N.B.A. in both scoring (34.0) and assists (11.4). He did it playing for the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 1972-73 season.

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."

Tom Chambers, Johnson's high-scoring teammate, said, "K. J. has the quickest first step I've ever seen."

Rory Sparrow, the Sacramento Kings' playmaker, said: "He has unbelievable quickness and is a great jumper. He's very tough to guard. The best way to do it is to back off on him and make him prove he can consistently hit the outside jumper."

"K. J. is a rocket," said Maurice Cheeks, the Knicks' point guard. "He's so explosive that he almost invites you to double-team him so he can get by you."

"Tiny was slicker," said Fitzsimmons, who has coached many other outstanding point guards, Archibald and Phil Ford among them, in his 18 years as an N.B.A. coach. "He really knew how to maneuver. Kevin has a great step to basket and is a more physical player. I take him for granted; he's the best I've ever coached. The only way to stop Kevin is to hold him. If the officials don't curtail it, he's unstoppable."

Paul Westphal and Lionel Hollins, both former All-Star guards, now assistant coaches with the Suns, have helped Johnson expand his natural repertory. Naturally ambidextrous, Westphal, who is scheduled to be the Suns' coach when Fitzsimmons retires, has taught Johnson to use the left-hand drive. Hollins has shown him how to use his body and the rim to frustrate shot blockers and how to better find the open man when he is double-teamed.

The 6-foot-1-inch Johnson has become one of the league's most productive point guards in just four pro seasons after a rocky start.

In 1987, his selection as the seventh player in the draft by the Cleveland Cavaliers was met with boos and groans of disappointment by fans. Few had heard of Johnson and some skeptics even questioned the sanity of Wayne Embry, the general manager, who drafted him.

Embry was sure he had made the correct choice.

The Cavs had done their homework well. Johnson, who attended the University of California, was the Golden Bears' career leader in scoring (1,665 points), assists (521) and steals (155).

"We watched films and liked what we saw," Embry said. "We got good reports on him from everywhere but it was his play at the Aloha Classic in Hawaii that moved him up as a lottery pick in most everyone's estimation."

Johnson, describing his trip to Hawaii as "one for business," said he went there to show everyone that "I was a true point guard."

"I had to beat the rap of being a shooting guard in a point guard's body," he said.

Embry was more certain he had made the right choice when he and Gary Fitzsimmons, the Cavaliers' player-personnel director, went to the airport to pick up Johnson for his first news conference. Gary Fitzsimmons is Cotton's son.

"The kid had great personality," Embry said. "As he got off the plane, it was like President Reagan had arrived. He was smiling, joking around and shaking every hand in sight."

But the Cavaliers already had a point guard, a good one at that, in Mark Price. Rather than let one of them languish on the bench, four months into Johnson's rookie season, Johnson was the central figure in a five-player trade that brought Larry Nance to Cleveland.

"We didn't think they could survive together," said Embry, who said he remained a fan of Johnson. "Mark needed the playing time and so did Kevin."

Johnson looks back at his rookie season with Cleveland, when he averaged 20 minutes in 52 games, as a learning experience. "There was a night and day difference between Price and myself," he said. "He taught me so much in a short period of time. I told myself that when I came back for my second season, I would implement all the things he taught me. Whether it was practice or a game, he did everything with the same consistency. He took 500 shots in practice every day, maybe more. If he would have given me one inch, I thought I would have been able to challenge him for the job. He never gave me that inch."

Johnson likes playing in the Pacific Division, and with the Suns in particular, where the offense is more suited to his game.

"Cleveland was a half-court team," he said, "geared to go inside and slow it up. Here, we run and push the ball up the court and, play tough defense. Our objective is to run and outhustle the opposition at both ends of the court."

Johnson believes that "it was one of the greatest trades of all time."

"It was meant to benefit both teams and it has," he said.

A lot of good things have happened to Johnson in Phoenix, the latest of which has been his elevation to starter in the All-Star Game.

What a difference a year makes. The Western Conference coaches voted him on to last year's team as a reserve. But he was in awe of being in the company of Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Akeem Olajuwon and felt more like a spectator than a participant.

"I was so excited I didn't even care if I played," he said. "It was just a dream come true to have my name announced during the introductions and to sit on the bench and be able to listen to Pat Riley in the huddle asking Magic who he wanted to guard on defense, Larry Bird or Michael Jordan."

Today, he will be playing alongside Magic in an all-Johnson starting backcourt.

[Photograph]
Kevin Johnson driving around John Stockton of the Jazz. (Reuters)

[Illustration]
"Watching a Sun Rise," showing Kevin Johnson's year-by-year statistics.

[GMATCallahan]

GMAT, do you have any photos of KJ on Dream Team II? I can't find any on google

Here's one of K.J. and Team USA/Phoenix Suns teammate Dan Majerle with their gold medals:

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/00382493.html

If I run into any action photos, I'll let you know.

[GMATCallahan]

What's curious is the differing philosohpies that defenders held when it came to guarding K.J. In the article that I posted above, Rory Sparrow talked about playing off K.J. and letting him shoot the jumper. However, in the following Los Angeles Times article on the eve of the 1989 Western Conference Finals between the Lakers and Suns, L.A.'s Byron Scott stated that the best way to play K.J. was hard-and-tight rather than giving him room for his jumper. Naturally, K.J. could beat a defender both ways and force him into a tough choice.

Again, I'll copy the article for your reading pleasure.

NBA PLAYOFFS A WEAKNESS? If Lakers Have One, It May Be Playing One-on-One Defense; [Home Edition]
SAM McMANIS. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 19, 1989. pg. 1

Spontaneity seemingly has no place in Pat Riley's regimented practices, where every action must have a purpose.

So, when Riley interrupted a half-court drill during the Lakers' first pre-playoff practice late last month, it was understood that he had something significant to say to his players. Riley spoke passionately and convincingly to his players about their perceived defensive weakness. He cited scouting reports obtained from obliging opponents, plus another report elicited from an independent scout, all noting that the way to beat the Lakers is to exploit their defensive matchups.

Assured that the point had been made, Riley folded his practice notes into thirds, tucked them into the back pocket of his khakis and went back to silent observation.

"That was a motivational tool," said Riley, when reminded of his short speech. "A lot of that was for attitude. We were building a challenge in them, like, `If that's what they think about us, then . . . ' I mean, I wanted them to know that other people don't think they can guard them."

That evaluation, however, cannot be totally dismissed. There is some truth, it seems, in the assessment that one of the Lakers' few problem areas is individual defense-as opposed to team defense, such as their effective half-court trap.

"It has to be a little realistic, because that's what other teams are saying," said Michael Cooper, the Lakers' defensive specialist. "We had lapses, sure. But it was a different intensity in the regular season."

So far in the playoffs, however, the Lakers have proved those appraisals either inaccurate or obsolete. In sweeping the first two rounds, against Portland and Seattle, the Lakers have given up nearly six fewer points a game than during the regular season.

But the Lakers, who credit their defensive resurgence to greater intensity and concerted effort, will face their biggest challenge yet starting Saturday, when they play the Phoenix Suns in Game 1 of the Western Conference finals.

The Suns, led by quick point guard Kevin Johnson and high-scoring forward Tom Chambers, averaged 116.8 points against the Lakers during the regular season, when the teams split six games. And, so far in the playoffs, the Suns are averaging 122.8 points a game, more than any other playoff team.

Though respectful of Phoenix's offensive capabilities, the Lakers say they are confident they can harness the Suns' powerful running game. If so, the Lakers will have to once again prove wrong the scouts who said they have trouble stopping open-court and isolation moves the Suns often use.

"Those other teams that sent us reports, they always said the same thing," Riley said. "It was, `Take it at them, beat them off the dribble. There's an opinion around that we don't have good individual defenders.

"But, in this league, against the many offensive talents, there aren't many good individual (defensive) players. Everybody gets beat off the dribble sometimes. But you got to keep that to a minimum.

"(The scouts) got to look at something and ask, `What can we attack?' Look at our starting lineup. Magic (Johnson) is a 6-9 guard and even though he is an excellent team defender-probably the best team defender in the NBA-he cannot really contain point guards. There's a physiological difference.

"Byron (Scott) can guard and can contain point guards. James (Worthy) and A. C. (Green) are thought of as guys that aren't good defending out on the floor (away from the basket). And, then, Kareem (Abdul-Jabbar) . . .

"Teams think they can break us down. So, we see a lot of isolation and putting the ball on the floor."

The Lakers already have faced such tactics against the Trail Blazers and the SuperSonics in their first two series and were hardly threatened. Through seven playoff games, opponents have made only 44% of their shots against the Lakers.

The combination of tough individual and team defense, in the form of switches and traps, enabled the Lakers to hold Dale Ellis and Xavier McDaniel, Seattle's scoring threats, to 42% and 43% shooting, respectively. And, in the first round, Portland's Clyde Drexler made 49% of his shots.

"I'm pleased," Riley said. "We're doing a better job individually, cutting the (uncontested drives to the basket) down to a minimum. Once they apply themselves, our guys are capable of guarding people."

The Suns, however, present matchup problems because they often play without a center. They also favor a fast-break offense-"You can't really call it a passing game," Riley said-and spread the court for Kevin Johnson in half-court situations.

Johnson is the Western Conference's version of Detroit's Isiah Thomas, but he may even be quicker and more of a scoring threat. In six games against the Lakers this season, he averaged 22.5 points and 16 assists.

Probably drawing the assignment against Johnson will be Scott, with considerable relief by Cooper. Both talked as if it would be their toughest assignment in the playoffs, even if they end up playing Thomas and the Pistons again in the finals.

"The fact that he can shoot and drive presents a problem," Scott said. "You can't play him just one way. You can't say, `I'll play him back and make him shoot the jumper,' because that's what he likes to do. You've got to get up on him and play him as tough as possible."

And risk having Johnson simply drive around him for a layup or easy assist.

"You can't be scared of his quickness, because he might beat you anyway," Scott added. "Myself and Coop are more aware now what he likes to do and what he does best. We can't relax at all when we're on him. When you relax or straighten up, just for a second, he's gone."

Even stopping Johnson, were that possible, would not ensure stopping the Suns. Chambers averaged 20.5 points against the Lakers and the Suns' other Johnson, sixth-man Eddie, averaged 22.4.

"We've got to stop two of their three threats," Cooper said. "That's the same line of attack (the Lakers used) against Seattle, where we had to stop two of the three-McDaniel, Ellis or (Derrick) McKey-in order to win.

"There's no way we can beat these guys with two of them getting 30 and holding one down, and then having guys like (Dan) Majerle and (Tyron) Corbin come in and hurt us."

If the Lakers manage to contain Johnson and the rest of the Suns, and advance to the championship series for the third straight season, maybe those scouting reports will have to be amended.

Not that Laker players believed them much anyway.

"They were just looking at us in the regular season," Scott said of the scouts. "That's not the same. We've shown already that we're playing different. Everybody here plays stronger and more intense in the playoffs. But you'd have to say, definitely, this will be our toughest (defensive) test."

Cooper said he has heard the criticism of the Laker defense before. "People have always said that about this club, that we're weak," he said. "Yet, we somehow always manage to pull it off. I don't think there's a weak link on any individual on this club. It's just a matter of asserting ourselves."

Riley said that he, too, believes in the Lakers' defensive capabilities, that he just felt compelled to make his players aware of what others are saying.

"I wanted (the scouts) to be very critical, as well as telling us our good parts," Riley said. "There are a number of parts of our game that can be looked at critically."

No doubt, Laker players will eventually hear about them.

Laker Notes

Guard Byron Scott aggravated his bruised right wrist Thursday in practice while trying to dunk over teammate Orlando Woolridge. Scott had the wrist taped by trainer Gary Vitti and continued practicing. . . . For the first time in eight seasons, Laker guard Michael Cooper was not voted onto either the all-defensive first or second team by NBA coaches. However, Laker power forward A.C. Green made the second team.

Said Cooper: "There were a lot of good defensive players this year. It just gives me more incentive to play hard the rest of this season and next year. I've built a reputation on (defense). Not making it this year isn't going to make me or break me. But I've marked my consistency by it."

[Illustration]
PHOTO: Phoenix point guard Kevin Johnson, dribbling past Chicago's John Paxson during a regular-season game (left), figures to give the Lakers problems matching up defensively during the Western Conference finals. Johnson, who averaged 22.5 points and 16 assists in six games against the Lakers this season, is sometimes compared to Detroit's Isiah Thomas.; PHOTO: (Orange County Edition) Byron Scott of the Lakers attempts to cut off SuperSonic guard Nate McMillan. The Lakers will likely find their one-to-one defense challenged in the conference finals against Phoenix. / Associated Press; PHOTO: Byron Scott (above) will probably draw the assignment of guarding Johnson and will get relief help from Michael Cooper (below).

[GMATCallahan]

Indeed, a New York Times article from right about the same time notes that K.J. had become "an excellent outside shooter."

Cool Presence in Phoenix
CLIFTON BROWN, Special to The New York Times. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: May 26, 1989. pg. A.26

Most athletes have a ritual they use to relax before games. Some listen to music. Others meditate.

Kevin Johnson reads the Bible. Perhaps that is fitting, because Johnson's emergence at point guard this season has been a godsend for the Phoenix Suns.

''It's kind of scary that Kevin is so good already,'' said Eddie Johnson, the Suns forward. ''I mean, he's only 23 years old, so he should get better. With his ability, the only way he won't get better is if he lets all the attention he's getting go to his head. But with him, that won't happen. He's too levelheaded. He's definitely the driving force behind this team.''

It will take all of Johnson's resolve, plus his teammates', to beat the Los Angeles Lakers in the Western Conference championship. Los Angeles leads the four-of-seven-game series, 2-0, as the teams prepare for the third game Friday night in Phoenix.

Johnson is averaging 24.5 points and 14 assists per game so far in the series, yet he is still unhappy with his play. He scored just 2 points in the second half Tuesday night as the Lakers overcame an 8-point deficit to win, 101-95.

To have a realistic chance of winning this series, the Suns think they must win at home on Friday and Sunday. The Lakers are unbeaten (10-0) during the playoffs, but Phoenix won all three home games against the Lakers this season. One of those streaks will end on Friday. Johnson hopes the Lakers' streak ends.

On-the-Job Maturity

''We've grown up a lot the last two games,'' Johnson said. ''The Lakers' experience has been the main reason they've won the first two games. You can just feel their confidence on the court. The playoffs are a way of life for them, and we're still trying to figure out how to approach the games. By the second half on Tuesday, I was mentally drained. I wanted to come out aggressive, but I was too keyed up. Then late in the game, I had nothing left.

''But at home, we're more confident. It's really important that I get my teammates involved early: make good passes, penetrate, anything I can to control the game and my team's destiny. We've had a great year, but we're not satisfied. We think we can still win this series.''

Considering what Johnson has accomplished this season, he has reason to be confident. He became only the fifth player in National Basketball Association history to average more than 20 points and 10 assists in the same season. Oscar Robertson, Nate Archibald, Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas are the others.

Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter. When asked how Johnson could be contained, Cotton Fitzsimmons, the Suns' coach, smiled and said: ''There are only a few ways to contain Kevin. You can double-team him. You can foul him. You can hurt him. Or you can put a saddle on him. Other than that, you can't stop him.''

Quickness Is His Defense

Michael Cooper, the Lakers' defensive specialist, who has alternated with Byron Scott trying to check Johnson, said: ''No one in the league right now is quicker than Kevin. Some guys who aren't playing anymore have been as quick. But no one is quicker right now.

''With Kevin, the one thing we've tried to do is bump him, play him physically. He's only 6-foot-2, and when he goes into the lane, he's going to get knocked around. But he's so quick, he's going to hurt you, sooner or later. You just hope he doesn't hurt you enough to beat you.''

When Johnson was acquired from Cleveland in a trade midway through the 1987-88 season, he was the catalyst that rejuvenated the faltering Suns franchise. After a fine collegiate career at California, Johnson was Cleveland's first-round draft pick in 1987. But Johnson spent the first half of his rookie season backing up Mark Price, Cleveland's All-Star point guard.

Needing more frontcourt help, the Cavaliers sent Johnson, Mark West, Tyrone Corbin and two draft picks to Phoenix in February of last year for Larry Nance, Mike Sanders and a draft choice.

From the moment Johnson arrived in Phoenix, Fitzsimmons, who was then director of player personnel, made him the starting point guard and gave him the freedom to run the Suns' uptempo offense. Fitzsimmons has never regretted the decision. After winning 28 games last season, Phoenix won 55 games this season, the third-biggest one-year improvement in league history. Johnson was named the league's most improved player earlier this week, and Fitzsimmons was named coach of the year. Heat Shifted to Cleveland

''I probably had more confidence in Kevin when he came here than Kevin did,'' said Fitzsimmons, who took over as coach this season. ''The fans condemned the trade. The people wanted me out of town on the next train, but they wanted me under the train, not on it.

''It's funny how things work out. Now Wayne Embry, Cleveland's general manager, is taking a lot of heat in Cleveland because Kevin's playing so well. But people forget that when the Cavaliers drafted Kevin, noboby in Cleveland wanted him.

''Obviously they knew Kevin could play. But Mark Price developed better than they expected, and Price plays the halfcourt style that Cleveland plays better than Kevin does. I talked to Wayne Embry just this morning about the trade. Personally, I've never seen a trade work out better for both teams than that one.''

Not only has Johnson excelled on the court, he has also quickly become a favorite in the Phoenix community. He buys 10 tickets for each home game and distributes them to different people. He is a devout Christian who prefers spending his free evenings quietly at home.

Such a surprise was Johnson this season, he wasn't even listed on the All-Star ballot. But you can bet that won't happen again. And the Suns figure the best from Johnson is yet to come.

''I believe I'm going to be talking about Kevin Johnson for a long time,'' Fitzsimmons said. ''And personally, I couldn't be happier.'' The 20-10 Club The five players who have averaged as many as 20 points and 10 assists in a single season. Oscar Robertson Cincinnati Royals

[Table]
Season
Scoring
Assists


1961-62
30.8
11.4


1963-64
31.4
11.0


1964-65
30.4
11.5


1965-66
31.3
11.1


1966-67
30.5
10.7





Nate Archibald


Kansas City Kings


1972-73
34.0
11.4





Isiah Thomas


Detroit Pistons


1983-84
21.3
11.1


1984-85
21.2
13.9


1985-86
20.9
10.8


1986-87
20.6
10.0





Magic Johnson


Los Angeles Lakers


1986-87
23.9
12.2


1988-89
22.5
12.8





Kevin Johnson


Phoenix Suns


1988-89
20.4
12.2

[GMATCallahan]

As for where K.J. would rank all-time, that's really a subjective question, but certainly a case can be made for the 21-40 range. Consider some of the elite circles that K.J. travels in when it comes to statistical performance.

*Kevin Johnson is one of the seven players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in the same season (along with Oscar Robertson, Tiny Archibald, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Michael Adams, and Tim Hardaway).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in three different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and Magic Johnson).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the three players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in three consecutive seasons (along with Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the five players in NBA history to have averaged at least 12.0 assists in a season (along with Kevin Porter, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, and John Stockton).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the six players in NBA history to have averaged at least 11.0 assists in two different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Steve Nash).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the five players in NBA history to have averaged at least 10.0 assists in four different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, and John Stockton).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the six players in NBA history to have averaged at least 18.0 points and 11.0 assists in a season (along with Oscar Robertson, Tiny Archibald, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, and Steve Nash).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history to have averaged at least 18.0 points and 11.0 assists in two different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and Magic Johnson).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history to recorded at least 30 points and 12 assists in three consecutive games (along with Oscar Robertson, Tiny Archibald, and Dwyane Wade).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19890224.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/LAL19890226.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/POR19890228.html

*Kevin Johnson is one of the five players in NBA history to have recorded at least 25 assists in a single game (along with Scott Skiles, John Stockton, Nate McMillan, and Jason Kidd).

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1993&b=19940406&tm=PHO

*Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history to have averaged at least 15.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season (along with Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Steve Nash).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the three players in NBA history to have averaged at least 18.0 points, 11.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season (along with Magic Johnson and Steve Nash).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the two players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season (along with Magic Johnson).

*Kevin Johnson is the only player in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, and 2.0 steals in the same season.


Then consider that in 1998, the Sporting News named K.J., along with Isiah Thomas, as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s (behind Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler on the First Team). K.J. set new NBA records for minutes played in an NBA Finals game (62, in Game Three of the 1993 NBA Finals) and consecutive made free throws in a playoff game (21, in Game Seven of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals, since tied by Paul Pierce in Game One of the 2003 Eastern Conference First Round). In three career Game Sevens, K.J. averaged 31.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .933 free throw percentage. In short, he was a big-game player in addition to all of his elite statistical accomplishments (in six career winner-take-all playoff games, K.J. averaged 27.2 points and 9.3 assists).

To quote Pat Riley after Game Five of the 1990 Western Conference Semifinals, in which K.J. had scored 37 points (14-23 FG, 9-10 FT) and delivered 8 assists to lead Phoenix's elimination of L.A., "Kevin Johnson is a unique player." In sending the 63-win Lakers to their earliest playoff exit since 1981, K.J. had averaged 29.7 points and 11.3 assists in the last three games of the series, including 33.5 points and 12.0 assists in the last two. In fourteen games against the eventual champion Houston Rockets in the 1994 and 1995 playoffs, K.J. averaged 27.2 points and 9.6 assists, including 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage (28-29 FT) in the two Game Sevens. As Hakeem Olajuwon wrote on page 282 of his 1996 autobiography, Living the Dream, about K.J. in Game Seven of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals, "Every time I looked K.J. was driving. When he wasn't penetrating he was pulling up and hitting his jump shots. He was just incredible. It's a trial just being on the same court with someone who is playing so well."

Or consider a couple quotes regarding Game Four of that series, in Houston. Behind K.J.'s 43 points (18-24 FG, 7-7 FT), 9 assists, 6 rebounds, and 3 steals, the Suns had rallied out of a 15-point third quarter hole and squeezed out a 114-110 road playoff victory. In the fourth quarter of that game, NBC play-by-play man Dick Enberg stated the following:

Kevin Johnson is playing like he invented the game of basketball.

Or consider the following quotation from Suns' center Joe Kleine afterward, as reported on page 37 of the May 22, 1995 edition of Sports Illustrated:

When Kevin plays like that, you just get out of his way. Go where he tells you to go and then just stand there and watch the master.

[Kblaze8855]

Seems about 80% of that is some combo of points and assists. Its impressive but its all basically one thing.


As for where K.J. would rank all-time, that's really a subjective question, but certainly a case can be made for the 21-40 range.

No way in hell is Kevin Johnson anywhere starting with a 2. The mere fact that there are 26 MVPs and and like 19-20 guys to lead a team to a title(not all of them on both lists) should throw out any consideration for him being in that area. Barring a few exceptions(and not enough to drop the list under 21) anyone to lead a team to a title or win the MVP should probably be over Kevin Johnson.

Too many accomplishments have to be disregarded to put him that high. Elvin Hayes was a 27/18 player in his prime, led the L in points and rebounds, made several time all nba first teams, 12 all star teams in a row, went to 3 finals and won a title. And he isnt even ranked in the low 20s by most.

Way too many crazy accomplished people to throw KJ that high because to dismiss half of them you have to prop up his winning and bash them for losing and the rest you have to prop up his individual talent and bash the legends who won but didnt have KJs numbers. No consistient way to wipe out that many legends. The reasoning would begin to conflict real fast.

If people with both MVPs and multiple titles as elite players have to be dismissed to put him that high its just not right to try. I mean....I love Scottie Pippen. And hes got a better case than KJ for top 21 but I cant put him over the quality of people id have to to make that case.

[GMATCallahan]

Seems about 80% of that is some combo of points and assists. Its impressive but its all basically one thing.



No way in hell is Kevin Johnson anywhere starting with a 2. The mere fact that there are 26 MVPs and and like 19-20 guys to lead a team to a title(not all of them on both lists) should throw out any consideration for him being in that area. Barring a few exceptions(and not enough to drop the list under 21) anyone to lead a team to a title or win the MVP should probably be over Kevin Johnson.

Too many accomplishments have to be disregarded to put him that high. Elvin Hayes was a 27/18 player in his prime, led the L in points and rebounds, made several time all nba first teams, 12 all star teams in a row, went to 3 finals and won a title. And he isnt even ranked in the low 20s by most.

Way too many crazy accomplished people to throw KJ that high because to dismiss half of them you have to prop up his winning and bash them for losing and the rest you have to prop up his individual talent and bash the legends who won but didnt have KJs numbers. No consistient way to wipe out that many legends. The reasoning would begin to conflict real fast.

If people with both MVPs and multiple titles as elite players have to be dismissed to put him that high its just not right to try. I mean....I love Scottie Pippen. And hes got a better case than KJ for top 21 but I cant put him over the quality of people id have to to make that case.

K.J. was one of the best point guards in history, and I think that most of the great point guards in history start to fall into place in the 20-range. Indeed, a great point guard is more valuable and important than a great player at most other positions aside from center, because he leads an offense, catalyzes baskets, and directly effects the performance of his teammates. Now, I'm not saying that K.J. should necessarily rank that high, but once you reach the twenties, the discussion becomes extremely ambiguous and invites varying possibilities. That's all that I'm saying.

As for the statistical combinations, what separates K.J. in many of those cases is also field goal percentage. He was not just extremely prolific but also extremely efficient (and steals also separates him at one point). Aside from Magic Johnson, no one combined points, assists, and field goal percentage (the three most important statistical catgeories for a star point guard) better than K.J. did. And the point about points and assists is that K.J. is pretty close to the top of the mountain in NBA history in terms of combining them. In many ways, he epitomized the 20-10 point guard.

I don't think that being an MVP necessarily means everything, especially since the award is only pertinent in the context of one's era, and not all eras are created equal. Did Bob McAdoo, Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, or even Steve Nash lead their respective teams closer to a championship or to more overall success than K.J.? Was their level of play necessarily higher? McAdoo later won a couple championships, but only as a role player off the bench on the eighties Lakers, not as a star.

Likewise, not everyone who "led" a team to a title was superior to K.J. Was Chauncey Billups better? Who was really the leader on the '79 Sonics? And take a legend such as Bob Cousy, who shot .375 from the field for his career and never reached .400 in a single season. Yes, he won six championships with Bill Russell, but Russell won five more championships after Cousy retired. Cousy revolutionzed the game, but frankly, the record indicates that he was not indispensable in the least. He never led a team to elite status before Russell arrived, and Russell won nearly as many championships without Cousy as he won with him.

As for Scottie Pippen, he'd probably make my top twenty-five. He was arguably the greatest all-around small forward in history (taking into account both sides of the ball).

[GMATCallahan]

And for the record, the reason why I said "21-40" is because I was talking loosely in terms of a conceptual range based on the type of performance, production, and value that K.J. offered a team. I don't believe in exact rankings at all, for I feel that they represent a simplistic, contrived, cheap, and fallacious form of analysis that reflects the sadly technocratic and mechanical manner of modern thought. The idea that one player should be "21" and another should necessarily be "22," as if everyone can or should be discretely separated in descending fashion, is ludicrous and represents nothing but bureaucracy and the artificial sway of information science.

I will note that in March 2001, Hubie Brown told K.J. that he was one of the greatest players that Brown had ever seen, in March 2005, Steve "Snapper" Jones said during a telecast that "Everyone forgets what a great player Kevin Johnson was," and that in November 2006, Bill Walton stated during a telecast that K.J. was one of the "brilliant players of [his] era."

Now, I'm not delusional enough to think that K.J. was a top-twenty all-time player, but nor am I simplistic enough to believe that just because Cousy won six rings by playing with Bill Russell, he was necessarily the better player than K.J., or that just because Archibald and Payton played for championship teams, they were necessarily superior. Merely adding up titles or awards can be misleading in a team sport.

[Chalkmaze]

You also are going to overlook his injuries it looks like.

[L.Kizzle]

Kevin Johnson anywhere in then 20's or 30's is not right. KJ was a great player, but top 20-40 is exclusive company and he just not on that level. He had a great 3-4 season run in the late 80's and early 90's but their are a tone of players who have had a good 3-4 season run and they aren't top 20-40. A Bernard King, Steve Nash, Walt Bellamy, types come to mind and those guys are not top 20-40 players.


How I rank Kevin Johnson among guards

Tier One
Jordan, Magic, Robertson, West, ect.

Tier Two
Kobe, Drexler, Ice Gervin, ect.

Tier Three
Hal Greer, Pearl Monroe, Pistol Pete, Tiny, ect

Tier Four
Sidney Moncrief, Fat Lever, Ray Allen

Tier Five
Terry Porter, Andrew Toney, ect.


KJ could go anywhere from tier three to tier four on that list but know higher or lower.

[GMATCallahan]

Kevin Johnson anywhere in then 20's or 30's is not right. KJ was a great player, but top 20-40 is exclusive company and he just not on that level. He had a great 3-4 season run in the late 80's and early 90's but their are a tone of players who have had a good 3-4 season run and they aren't top 20-40. A Bernard King, Steve Nash, Walt Bellamy, types come to mind and those guys are not top 20-40 players.


How I rank Kevin Johnson among guards

Tier One
Jordan, Magic, Robertson, West, ect.

Tier Two
Kobe, Drexler, Ice Gervin, ect.

Tier Three
Hal Greer, Pearl Monroe, Pistol Pete, Tiny, ect

Tier Four
Sidney Moncrief, Fat Lever, Ray Allen

Tier Five
Terry Porter, Andrew Toney, ect.


KJ could go anywhere from tier three to tier four on that list but know higher or lower.

I disagree. First, the fourth tier is much too low for K.J. Guards like Moncrief, Lever, and Allen were fine players, but they were limited in the kind of impact that they could make and where they could lead a team. The third tier is acceptable, but I think that K.J. could fit in quite well in the second tier. If you look at him and Drexler, their value was really pretty similar, and K.J. elevated his teammates in ways that Bryant and Gervin could not. There's more to basketball than volume scoring and one-on-one play, and in fact, I might place Archibald in the second tier as well.

You talk about K.J.'s three-four years, but they represented one of the best three-four year runs in NBA history, by anyone. From 1989-1991, K.J. became the third player ever to average at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in each of three consecutive seasons (joining Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas), averaging 21.7 points, 11.3 assists, a .507 field goal percentage, an .854 free throw percentage, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.7 steals. From 1989-1992, K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, an .843 free throw percentage, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.6 steals. I challenge you to find how many guards in NBA history have ever put up numbers at that level over a three or four-year stretch, especially combining that degree of production in both points and assists with that stratum of shooting efficiency. I believe that the only guy who'll you find at that level in each of the "big three" categories (points, assists, and field goal percentage, the three most important for a star guard) is Magic Johnson, who from 1987-1990 averaged 22.1 points, 12.1 assists, a .502 field goal percentage, and an .876 free throw percentage (plus 6.8 rebounds and 1.7 steals). The only other player who'll be in that ballpark is Oscar Robertson.

What's true of three-four years is also true of nine. Over a nine-season run from 1989-1997, K.J. averaged 19.8 points, 10.0 assists, and a .497 field goal percentage. Again, the only other players in NBA history to reach a similar level of elite effectiveness in all three categories (which, again, are the three most important for a star guard and especially a star point guard) are Magic Johnson from 1983-1991 (20.0/12.2/.518) and Oscar Robertson from 1962-1970 (29.1/10.3/.490). Those three (Magic, Oscar, K.J.) are in a league of their own when combining elite effectiveness in the most vital statistical categories for a star playmaker, and only Magic combined greatness in all three better than K.J. over either a three-four year run or virtually an entire decade.

[GMATCallahan]

You also are going to overlook his injuries it looks like.

Injuries are the knock on K.J., and that's understandable. However, you also have to understand the injuries. Some feel that in the history of the NBA, no one has penetrated the lane and attacked the basket like K.J., and he played in an extremely physical era. As Danny Ainge once said, in the 1990s, referees just stopped calling fouls, and K.J. paid the price. To quote a post of mine:

As the '95-'96 ESPN NBA preview noted, when K.J. was hot, it seemed like the only way to stop him was to hurt him. Well, don't think that teams didn't realize that and didn't try to make him pay a price when he rocketed through lane and attacked the rim. In 2001, an Arizona Republic sportswriter (Norm Frauenheim) recalled that opponents would sometimes pummel K.J. into the floor at old Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Phoenix so hard that it seemed as if the earth was shaking.

In today's NBA, I'd bet that K.J. would hold up much better. Besides, Tiny Archibald played in 876 of 1,148 potential regular season games over the 14-season span of his career (1971-1984), a 76.3% rate. K.J., meanwhile, played in 729 of 902 potential regular season games over the 11-season span of his career (1988-1998), an 80.8% rate (I'm not counting K.J.'s brief comeback in the spring of 2000 when he popped out of a two-year, official retirement to help the Suns after Jason Kidd broke his ankle). And K.J. played in 105 of 106 potential playoff games (99.1%).

[Glove_20]

I disagree. First, the fourth tier is much too low for K.J. Guards like Moncrief, Lever, and Allen were fine players, but they were limited in the kind of impact that they could make and where they could lead a team. The third tier is acceptable, but I think that K.J. could fit in quite well in the second tier. If you look at him and Drexler, their value was really pretty similar, and K.J. elevated his teammates in ways that Bryant and Gervin could not. There's more to basketball than volume scoring and one-on-one play, and in fact, I might place Archibald in the second tier as well.

You talk about K.J.'s three-four years, but they represented one of the best three-four year runs in NBA history, by anyone. From 1989-1991, K.J. became the third player ever to average at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in each of three consecutive seasons (joining Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas), averaging 21.7 points, 11.3 assists, a .507 field goal percentage, an .854 free throw percentage, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.7 steals. From 1989-1992, K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, an .843 free throw percentage, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.6 steals. I challenge you to find how many guards in NBA history have ever put up numbers at that level over a three or four-year stretch, especially combining that degree of production in both points and assists with that stratum of shooting efficiency. I believe that the only guy who'll you find at that level in each of the "big three" categories (points, assists, and field goal percentage, the three most important for a star guard) is Magic Johnson, who from 1987-1990 averaged 22.1 points, 12.1 assists, a .502 field goal percentage, and an .876 free throw percentage (plus 6.8 rebounds and 1.7 steals). The only other player who'll be in that ballpark is Oscar Robertson.

What's true of three-four years is also true of nine. Over a nine-season run from 1989-1997, K.J. averaged 19.8 points, 10.0 assists, and a .497 field goal percentage. Again, the only other players in NBA history to reach a similar level of elite effectiveness in all three categories (which, again, are the three most important for a star guard and especially a star point guard) are Magic Johnson from 1983-1991 (20.0/12.2/.518) and Oscar Robertson from 1962-1970 (29.1/10.3/.490). Those three (Magic, Oscar, K.J.) are in a league of their own when combining elite effectiveness in the most vital statistical categories for a star playmaker, and only Magic combined greatness in all three better than K.J. over either a three-four year run or virtually an entire decade.

Also just to add on Oscar's part, it is easier to put up good stats when your teammates are not that good and you don't make playoffs.

KJ and Magic are the only 2 putting up those big numbers, while still having a playoff team all their prime. While Oscar, he failed to make the playoffs many times.

[Glove_20]

But when he did get players around him, he still put numbers (though not as great), made All-NBA and All-Star teams, won All-Star MVP and helped Boston to a title.
And hwas out of his prime as well. Putting up 14/8 isn't really "good'. I don't know why you think it is.


And like I said, either way, 1 playoff in prime, is sad. It really is, and he didn't play well in that playoff series, and they lost as well.

To add on, it is easier to put up great stats when you are told to have the ball a lot because your teammates aren't as great. But whats the point of all the numbers when your team isn't going to the playoffs?


Lastly, if you missed the quote GMAT posted,

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."

That was from Archibald towards Kevin Johnson.









Anyways, just another to add against Archibald. He played in an era where the ABA was at his best. So the competetion in the NBA for Archibald wasn't as great either. Yet he still failed to make playoffs. Even with the competetion being a little washed down. This also has an overall impact on his numbers as well.

[L.Kizzle]

Also just to add on Oscar's part, it is easier to put up good stats when your teammates are not that good and you don't make playoffs.

KJ and Magic are the only 2 putting up those big numbers, while still having a playoff team all their prime. While Oscar, he failed to make the playoffs many times.
Yeah Oscar missed the playoffs in his rookie season and I think his last two with the Royals. But look at KJ's teams they were always stacked.

Tom Chamber (All-Star X4)
Dan Majerle (All-Star X2)
Jeff Hornacek (All-Star)
Cedric Ceballos (All-Star)
Charles Barkley (Who)

Then guys like Eddie Johnson who were good for 18 a night.

Same with Magic as you know his squad.


Oscar only had Jerry Lucas with him from 63 to 69 and thats it.

[Glove_20]

Yeah Oscar missed the playoffs in his rookie season and I think his last two with the Royals. But look at KJ's teams they were always stacked.

Tom Chamber (All-Star X4)
Dan Majerle (All-Star X2)
Jeff Hornacek (All-Star)
Cedric Ceballos (All-Star)
Charles Barkley (Who)

Then guys like Eddie Johnson who were good for 18 a night.

Same with Magic as you know his squad.


Oscar only had Jerry Lucas with him from 63 to 69 and thats it.
You missed the point though.

I was talking mainly about Oscar Robertson's numbers. And said it was because his team wasn't stacked, he was able to put up good numbers. Its easier to put up good numbers with a bad team.

Lastly, I still think, with the numbers he put up, they should've gone at least to playoffs. I mean, it seems like, wow he's putting such great numbers, but his team isn't going to the playoffs? Gary Payton in 2000 had starcasts just as bad, yet he was able to take them to the playoffs.

Payton's best players with him were:

Ruben Patterson (2nd year)
Vin Baker (Put 12/6 year before)

Yet he still took them to the playoffs, in the mighty west too.

[L.Kizzle]

You missed the point though.

I was talking mainly about Oscar Robertson's numbers. And said it was because his team wasn't stacked, he was able to put up good numbers. Its easier to put up good numbers with a bad team.

Lastly, I still think, with the numbers he put up, they should've gone at least to playoffs. I mean, it seems like, wow he's putting such great numbers, but his team isn't going to the playoffs? Gary Payton in 2000 had starcasts just as bad, yet he was able to take them to the playoffs.

Payton's best players with him were:

Ruben Patterson (2nd year)
Vin Baker (Put 12/6 year before)

Yet he still took them to the playoffs, in the mighty west too.
The two seasons Oscar didn't make it were in the late 1960's The Celtics were the Celtics, New York was starting to become a force and Wes Unseld and Pearl made Baltimore a contender. Then you had Phila with Hal Greer, Cunningham and Chet Walker so those a are the four squads (only four teams made it from each conferene back then).


Thats another thing, since only four squads made the playoffs back then (not 8 as it is now) it was even tougher to make the post-season. And if you weren't on stacked squads like Tiny and Oscar were, you had your work cut out for you.

[Glove_20]

The two seasons Oscar didn't make it were in the late 1960's The Celtics were the Celtics, New York was starting to become a force and Wes Unseld and Pearl made Baltimore a contender. Then you had Phila with Hal Greer, Cunningham and Chet Walker so those a are the four squads (only four teams made it from each conferene back then).


Thats another thing, since only four squads made the playoffs back then (not 8 as it is now) it was even tougher to make the post-season. And if you weren't on stacked squads like Tiny and Oscar were, you had your work cut out for you.

First of all, I think he didn't make it the last 3 years in Cincinnati.

2nd, its not just the playoffs, their record also had fallen. He didn't finish above .500 any of the years.

And as for Tiny, he couldn't make it to the playoffs in the mid 70s. After the Boston, Philly, and Laker dynasties had fallen. So that excuse does not work for Tiny Archibald.

And especially since in his prime, ABA was at its strongest, so there was less competition overall anyways.

[L.Kizzle]

Tiny did play on some pretty terrible teams. Look at the best team he played for in his prime, the Kansas City-Omaha Kings. Their roster included:

- Jalen Rose's father Jimmy Walker
- Don Kojis in his last season
- current coaches in D'Antonio and Rick Adleman
- Scott Wedman

That was his best team, they made the playoffs. I'm pretty sure it's hard to have two hometown teams.

[Glove_20]

Tiny did play on some pretty terrible teams. Look at the best team he played for in his prime, the Kansas City-Omaha Kings. Their roster included:

- Jalen Rose's father Jimmy Walker
- Don Kojis in his last season
- current coaches in D'Antonio and Rick Adleman
- Scott Wedman

That was his best team, they made the playoffs. I'm pretty sure it's hard to have two hometown teams.
Yeah no doubt they weren't good. But once again, its still possible to take yoru team to the playoffs. Or at least post a good record. Jimmy Walker stayed with Tiny for a while, yet only this year they made playoffs.

And even on the 34/11, no playoffs.


But also, his stats are inflated too, since they had bad teams, he got the ball more.

Lastly, don't forget the ABA effect. ABA was loaded in his prime, so he is lucky there wasn't tougher competetion against him, thoug he would have a better team, but it ultimately would've hurt his stats and he wouldn't have gotten to the playoffs again.

[L.Kizzle]

Yeah no doubt they weren't good. But once again, its still possible to take yoru team to the playoffs. Or at least post a good record. Jimmy Walker stayed with Tiny for a while, yet only this year they made playoffs.

And even on the 34/11, no playoffs.


But also, his stats are inflated too, since they had bad teams, he got the ball more.

Lastly, don't forget the ABA effect. ABA was loaded in his prime, so he is lucky there wasn't tougher competetion against him, thoug he would have a better team, but it ultimately would've hurt his stats and he wouldn't have gotten to the playoffs again.
Actually, I think the ABA would have helped Nate more then it would have hurt him. Imagine some of the players from the ABA being his teammate. Maybe an Artis Gilmore, or David Thompson or somebody.


Peoole credit Larry and Magic with the resurgence of the NBA, but the ABA coming into the NBA was as big of an impact as they were.

[GMATCallahan]

Yeah Oscar missed the playoffs in his rookie season and I think his last two with the Royals. But look at KJ's teams they were always stacked.

Tom Chamber (All-Star X4)
Dan Majerle (All-Star X2)
Jeff Hornacek (All-Star)
Cedric Ceballos (All-Star)
Charles Barkley (Who)

Then guys like Eddie Johnson who were good for 18 a night.

Same with Magic as you know his squad.


Oscar only had Jerry Lucas with him from 63 to 69 and thats it.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you about Robertson (although he did have an All-Star power player in Wayne Embry through 1966 and a very solid power forward named Happy Hairston), but K.J. had a lot to do with some of those All-Star appearances by his teammates. Hornacek made his only All-Star Game playing next to K.J. in 1992, even though he later spent six-and-a-half seasons alongside John Stockton in Utah's backcourt. Dan Majerle never averaged as many as 11.0 points in his seven seasons after leaving K.J., immediately dropping from 15.6 with Phoenix in 1995 to 10.6 in Cleveland in 1996. Part of that decline can be explained by Majerle playing fewer minutes on a new team, but he was still just 30 years old and could have played more had his new coaching staff deemed him effective enough. Without K.J., though, that wasn't the case, even though Majerle had joined one of the better point guards of the day in Terrell Brandon (and later Tim Hardaway in Miami). Still, he couldn't come close to duplicating his success alongside K.J. in Phoenix.

As for Tom Chambers, he'd made one All-Star Game in seven seasons prior to joining K.J., but he then made the All-Star team three years in a row as soon as he started running with Johnson. Check out these K.J.-Chambers hook-ups:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2&page=212&sort=postusername&order=asc&daysprune=-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_jBWSGqGyw&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN4-bmxnBQI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBSTQDwH8&mode=related&search=

And Eddie Johnson received his only NBA honor (1989 Sixth Man of the Year) playing next to K.J.

Let me also quote a recent post of mine on another board to reveal more about the K.J.-Chambers dynamic and how K.J. had made the Sixers' "Barkley haul" (Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) seem quite attractive at the time.

In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/column_042299.html?nav=ArticleList

Playing with K.J. allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-season scoring average record two years in a row with 25.7 in 1989 and 27.2 in 1990, the latter mark remaining a franchise record. Playing with K.J. also allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-game scoring record with 60 points, just a month after scoring 56.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19900324.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/GSW19900218.html

Conversely, Shawn Kemp never averaged 20.0 points per game with Payton, a mark that he surely would have reached with K.J. Or look at the three players whom Phoenix dealt to Philadelphia in the Charles Barkley blockbuster of June 1992. On the surface, it seemed as if the Sixers were receiving quite a haul of talent, three starters off a 53-win team (Jeff Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) who had shot the following respective field goal percentages during the '92 season: .512, .523, .522. Three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field should have helped the Sixers. However, as Philadelphia soon found out, those players were not nearly as effective once removed from K.J., even though Hornacek was a fine guard either way. Indeed, in Philadelphia in '93, Hornacek, Perry, and Lang shot just .470, .468, and .425 from the field, respectively. Perhaps the Sixers should have listened to Clyde Drexler after Perry scored 27 points in Game Three of the 1992 Western Conference Semifinals, with K.J. posting 16 points and 16 assists after going for 35 points (including 18 in a row, 22 in the third quarter, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line) in Game Two and before recording 35 points and 14 assists in Game Four. Here was Drexler's quotation in the Los Angeles Times.

Johnson and Hornacek Put Run, Fun in Suns; [Home Edition] Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 10, 1992. pg. 5

Kevin Johnson, who runs the Phoenix offense, had 16 points and 16 assists.

"We ran up and down the court, and I found (Tim) Perry open, and pretty soon it just opened up for everybody," Johnson said

... "I don't think we stopped Kevin (Johnson) because he was able to get the ball to Perry and those other guys. I believe he might as well have scored Perry's 27 points," Drexler said.

K.J. actually made Perry seem like an attractive commodity to Philadelphia.

I'll also quote Hornacek's letter to K.J. in 2001:

I also want to thank you for helping to make my career what it was. I wasn't happy at first ... Cotton made you the point guard without even having to beat me out, but obviously he knew what he was doing! I learned quickly, as did everyone else who has had the privilege of playing along side of you, that my game would benefit from having you at point guard. You are one of few players who can elevate the play of those around you.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnson_letters_hornacek.html?nav=ArticleList

[Glove_20]

It could go the other way around too. Imagine Nate getting no one and the rest getting stronger.

But the point I was making with the ABA were on his numbers. He wouldn't have led th league in scoring/assists with Erving in the league. He wouldn't have put as good numbers with, better teammates, not way better, but just better teammates. Or would top players come to his team, or will the rest of the league strengthen against him making it tougher...

Most likely, his team would get better (not way better), the rest of the league overall would get better, Tiny's numbers would fall, and his team would still likely miss playoffs since his team and the rest of the league got better.



But anyways, one thing is certain, with ABA at their best in his prime, that definately is an argument against him since the competetion in the league against him wasn't as high.












Quick quote:

put up his biggest stats during some weak NBA years (1972-76, when the ABA was stealing young talent from college and high school)

-Bill Simmons on Tiny


Just saying, its not just me that thinks that

[GMATCallahan]

Actually, I think the ABA would have helped Nate more then it would have hurt him. Imagine some of the players from the ABA being his teammate. Maybe an Artis Gilmore, or David Thompson or somebody.


Peoole credit Larry and Magic with the resurgence of the NBA, but the ABA coming into the NBA was as big of an impact as they were.

I don't know about that last statement. Drug scandals swamped the league in the late seventies (after the NBA-ABA merger of 1976), and the NBA had reached something of a nadir prior to the arrival of Magic and Bird in the fall of 1979.

[L.Kizzle]

I don't know about that last statement. Drug scandals swamped the league in the late seventies (after the NBA-ABA merger of 1976), and the NBA had reached something of a nadir prior to the arrival of Magic and Bird in the fall of 1979.
LOL, I'm talking about talent wise not doping wise. You had Erving/Moses/Gervin who were 3 of the top players before Magic/Larry and after they entered the league.

The league went through some doping during the Magic/Larry years with Micheal Ray and Roy Tarply among others.

[GMATCallahan]

First of all, I think he didn't make it the last 3 years in Cincinnati.

That's correct, and the Royals failed to post a winning record in any of Robertson's final four years in Cincinnati, winning fewer than 40 games three times.

I'm not saying that it was Oscar's fault, just stating the facts.

[GMATCallahan]

LOL, I'm talking about talent wise not doping wise. You had Erving/Moses/Gervin who were 3 of the top players before Magic/Larry and after they entered the league.

The league went through some doping during the Magic/Larry years with Micheal Ray and Roy Tarply among others.

Okay, I was interpreting your use of the term "impact" in a broader sense. Certainly, the ABA introduced an incredible influx of talent into the NBA, but the larger resonance proved limited until Magic and Bird arrived.

[Kblaze8855]

K.J. was one of the best point guards in history, and I think that most of the great point guards in history start to fall into place in the 20-range. Indeed, a great point guard is more valuable and important than a great player at most other positions aside from center, because he leads an offense, catalyzes baskets, and directly effects the performance of his teammates.

A great point being more valuable than a great player at most positions doesnt mean that when you compare the top players of all of them the points all belong over everyone but the centers. Too big a sample size from all of them. The best of the best from each position stand up to the best pointguards. And really only 2 points belong in the top 10-12 all time. All top 20 lists are are the best of the best. With 5 spots it wouldnt even take 5 players per position to put KJ below your highest estimates. There are about 11 people just as the 4 and 5 who were better than Kevin Johnson:

Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Ewing
Duncan
Malone
Barkley
Petitt

And there is only even one "Well maybe he accomplished more but you cant really prove hes better" on that list. All the rest are either no brainers or guys who played with KJ and were considered flat out better. KJ is getting a higher ranking in retrospect than he did in his prime. Kinda like Pistol Pete....though id take him over Pistol Pete....


Bird
Doc
Baylor
Hondo
Barry
Pippen
Jordan
West
Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Hayes

Plus you would have to put him over some of these guys.

Thats putting KJ on a level with the best of the best of the best all time. And that no matter how stretched or well written simply cant be done for a guy who in his prime was considered a peer with Tim Hardaway,, Chris Mullin, and so on who wouldnt even crack top 50. Speaking of which...

KJ wasnt voted top 50 all time in 1996. Im sure you agree nothing after 96 made his legacy. Even with all these coaches and players talking him up that you post(you dedicate yourself enough damn near every great player has similar quotes on him). Got a list of legends, long long time media members who covered 30+ years, coaches, and so on voting and KJ did not crack top 50. Yet 12 years later having done nothing to add to his legacy he jumps from below 50 to arguably #21? He might be underrated...but hes not that underrated.

This is strictly a fan made thing by his supporters to put him as highly as possible. It isnt and wouldnt be supported by any non biased group of fans(even thosel ike me who remember and loved KJs game). It wouldnt be supported by coaches. Not by players. No group of people could you poll and get KJ nearly this high and id bet anything on it.

Only his own fans.


Now, I'm not saying that K.J. should necessarily rank that high, but once you reach the twenties, the discussion becomes extremely ambiguous and invites varying possibilities. That's all that I'm saying.

Well yea I mentioned that. The non elites is a long long list that gives fans of borderline elites a lot of ammo to put guys higher than they deserve due to the flaws of the people on that level. That doesnt mean its right to do it. Or thats its accurate. It would take too much conflicting logic player to player to put him over as many legends as one would need to.


As for the statistical combinations, what separates K.J. in many of those cases is also field goal percentage. He was not just extremely prolific but also extremely efficient (and steals also separates him at one point). Aside from Magic Johnson, no one combined points, assists, and field goal percentage (the three most important statistical catgeories for a star point guard) better than K.J. did. And the point about points and assists is that K.J. is pretty close to the top of the mountain in NBA history in terms of combining them. In many ways, he epitomized the 20-10 point guard.

Considering the fact that a few non 20/10 points are still considered btter(and with good reason) that isnt that major. Its impressive. But im pressive in the way Steve Francis being on a list with Magic, Oscar, and Grant Hill as the only 15/5/5 players over their first 3 years players. Or arenas being the only player with 2000 points and 200 threes and 500FTs in a season(that not exactly it but he has one of those records similar to it). Those stat minimum records will bring up some odd players if you look across the board.


I don't think that being an MVP necessarily means everything, especially since the award is only pertinent in the context of one's era, and not all eras are created equal. Did Bob McAdoo, Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitzki, or even Steve Nash lead their respective teams closer to a championship or to more overall success than K.J.?

Cmon now. Did KJ himself lead a team closer to a title than Ray Allen, Rasheed Wallace, or Paul Pierce who all went to conference finals? Paul Westphal who went to the finals and made more than one all nba first team? Gus Williams who won a title? Plenty of guys not on KJs level all time managed to win on his level or close to it. And plenty of guys above KJs level didnt win beyond what he was able to. Doesnt make him their equal anymore than it makes Gus Williams KJs equal. Take 20-30 teams over 60 years(I know there were not hat many team for the whole 60) a lot of guys who dont deserve high rank will win as much or more than guys who do. Sideeffect of being a team sport.


Was their level of play necessarily higher? McAdoo later won a couple championships, but only as a role player off the bench on the eighties Lakers, not as a star.

Bob Mcadoo was for a time considered the equal of Kareem. Kevin Johnson at his peak was ranked as the equal of Tim Hardaway. I think we are overrating the level KJ reached when we question if MVPs hit a higher level of play.


Likewise, not everyone who "led" a team to a title was superior to K.J. Was Chauncey Billups better? Who was really the leader on the '79 Sonics?

Billups was who I meant when I mentioned exceptions. But there would need to be a hell of a lot more than there are. Its basically Billups, Gus Williams or Dennis Johnson, and 2-3 guys before 1956. Not nearly enough.


And take a legend such as Bob Cousy, who shot .375 from the field for his career and never reached .400 in a single season. Yes, he won six championships with Bill Russell, but Russell won five more championships after Cousy retired. Cousy revolutionzed the game, but frankly, the record indicates that he was not indispensable in the least. He never led a team to elite status before Russell arrived, and Russell won nearly as many championships without Cousy as he won with him.

Ive been saying the same thing for years. glove has argued with me over that for at least a few months whenever it comes up just because id take Steve Nash, Payton, Kidd, Isiah, and most modern points who proved themselves over him. KJ included. I just dont trust the skill set of a guy who predates the modern jumper. Not in a pointguard.


As for Scottie Pippen, he'd probably make my top twenty-five. He was arguably the greatest all-around small forward in history (taking into account both sides of the ball).

Hes also my second favorite player ever(Bulls fan since 83). But I cant let my bias blind me to reality. I refuse to be one of the fans propping up my favorite more than they justify just because I feel they are underrated. More often than not a non fan of th guy has a more accurate rating than a hardcore fan. We tend to overrate our guys more than non fans underrate them. Need the disconnect to rank it fairly. I think youre a reasonable guy who probably knows the game but really....nothing but bias could make one think Kevin Johnson is that high. There is just no other way.

[L.Kizzle]

A great point being more valuable than a great player at most positions doesnt mean that when you compare the top players of all of them the points all belong over everyone but the centers. Too big a sample size from all of them. The best of the best from each position stand up to the best pointguards. And really only 2 points belong in the top 10-12 all time. All top 20 lists are are the best of the best. With 5 spots it wouldnt even take 5 players per position to put KJ below your highest estimates. There are about 11 people just as the 4 and 5 who were better than Kevin Johnson:

Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Ewing
Duncan
Malone
Barkley
Petitt

And there is only even one "Well maybe he accomplished more but you cant really prove hes better" on that list. All the rest are either no brainers or guys who played with KJ and were considered flat out better. KJ is getting a higher ranking in retrospect than he did in his prime. Kinda like Pistol Pete....though id take him over Pistol Pete....


Bird
Doc
Baylor
Hondo
Barry
Pippen
Jordan
West
Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Hayes

Plus you would have to put him over some of these guys.

Thats putting KJ on a level with the best of the best of the best all time. And that no matter how stretched or well written simply cant be done for a guy who in his prime was considered a peer with Tim Hardaway,, Chris Mullin, and so on who wouldnt even crack top 50. Speaking of which...

KJ wasnt voted top 50 all time in 1996. Im sure you agree nothing after 96 made his legacy. Even with all these coaches and players talking him up that you post(you dedicate yourself enough damn near every great player has similar quotes on him). Got a list of legends, long long time media members who covered 30+ years, coaches, and so on voting and KJ did not crack top 50. Yet 12 years later having done nothing to add to his legacy he jumps from below 50 to arguably #21? He might be underrated...but hes not that underrated.

This is strictly a fan made thing by his supporters to put him as highly as possible. It isnt and wouldnt be supported by any non biased group of fans(even thosel ike me who remember and loved KJs game). It wouldnt be supported by coaches. Not by players. No group of people could you poll and get KJ nearly this high and id bet anything on it.

Only his own fans.


Well yea I mentioned that. The non elites is a long long list that gives fans of borderline elites a lot of ammo to put guys higher than they deserve due to the flaws of the people on that level. That doesnt mean its right to do it. Or thats its accurate. It would take too much conflicting logic player to player to put him over as many legends as one would need to.


Considering the fact that a few non 20/10 points are still considered btter(and with good reason) that isnt that major. Its impressive. But im pressive in the way Steve Francis being on a list with Magic, Oscar, and Grant Hill as the only 15/5/5 players over their first 3 years players. Or arenas being the only player with 2000 points and 200 threes and 500FTs in a season(that not exactly it but he has one of those records similar to it). Those stat minimum records will bring up some odd players if you look across the board.


Cmon now. Did KJ himself lead a team closer to a title than Ray Allen, Rasheed Wallace, or Paul Pierce who all went to conference finals? Paul Westphal who went to the finals and made more than one all nba first team? Gus Williams who won a title? Plenty of guys not on KJs level all time managed to win on his level or close to it. And plenty of guys above KJs level didnt win beyond what he was able to. Doesnt make him their equal anymore than it makes Gus Williams KJs equal. Take 20-30 teams over 60 years(I know there were not hat many team for the whole 60) a lot of guys who dont deserve high rank will win as much or more than guys who do. Sideeffect of being a team sport.


Bob Mcadoo was for a time considered the equal of Kareem. Kevin Johnson at his peak was ranked as the equal of Tim Hardaway. I think we are overrating the level KJ reached when we question if MVPs hit a higher level of play.


Billups was who I meant when I mentioned exceptions. But there would need to be a hell of a lot more than there are. Its basically Billups, Gus Williams or Dennis Johnson, and 2-3 guys before 1956. Not nearly enough.


Ive been saying the same thing for years. glove has argued with me over that for at least a few months whenever it comes up just because id take Steve Nash, Payton, Kidd, Isiah, and most modern points who proved themselves over him. KJ included. I just dont trust the skill set of a guy who predates the modern jumper. Not in a pointguard.


Hes also my second favorite player ever(Bulls fan since 83). But I cant let my bias blind me to reality. I refuse to be one of the fans propping up my favorite more than they justify just because I feel they are underrated. More often than not a non fan of th guy has a more accurate rating than a hardcore fan. We tend to overrate our guys more than non fans underrate them. Need the disconnect to rank it fairly. I think youre a reasonable guy who probably knows the game but really....nothing but bias could make one think Kevin Johnson is that high. There is just no other way.
Another thing about Kev, in his prime he probally was never a 10 player of his era (late 80's to early 90's)

He sure wasn't a top 5 player fighting against these guys:

Jordan
Magic
Dream
Chuck
Glide
Robinson
Pat Ew
Stockton
Malone
Zeke Thomas
'Nique

Then you have players maybe closer to his level (above or below-you decide)


Worthy
McHale
Timmy Hardaway
Mullin
Joe D
Terry Porter
Pippen
Mitch Richmond
Kemp
Alvin Robertson (yes him)
Rodman


So I think it's very hard to put Kevin Johnson as a top 21 player ever, when he sometimes wasn't even a top 10 player. This is not any hate towared KJ as he was one of my faves.

[Kblaze8855]

By the number(eff) this was the top 20 in his best overall season. Im not saying it proves anything but its a little interesting to see.

1 Michael Jordan CHI 34.57 1989-90
2 Hakeem Olajuwon HOU 32.38 1989-90
3 Patrick Ewing NYK 32.34 1989-90
4 Karl Malone UTA 31.88 1989-90
5 Charles Barkley PHI 31.67 1989-90
6 David Robinson SAS 30.56 1989-90
7 Magic Johnson LAL 30.49 1989-90
8 Larry Bird BOS 29.27 1989-90
9 John Stockton UTA 27.10 1989-90
10 Kevin Johnson PHO 26.34 1989-90
11 Chris Mullin GSW 25.82 1989-90
12 Clyde Drexler POR 25.52 1989-90
13 Lafayette Lever DEN 24.53 1989-90
14 Tom Chambers PHO 24.47 1989-90
15 Kevin Mchale BOS 24.21 1989-90
16 Dominique Wilkins ATL 23.58 1989-90
17 Roy Tarpley DAL 22.71 1989-90
18 Mark Price CLE 22.42 1989-90
19 James Worthy LAL 22.29 1989-90
20 Reggie Miller IND 22.18 1989-90


In his best season going just by numbers:

1 Michael Jordan CHI 36.99 1988-89
2 Magic Johnson LAL 33.31 1988-89
3 Charles Barkley PHI 32.68 1988-89
4 Hakeem Olajuwon HOU 31.02 1988-89
5 Karl Malone UTA 29.53 1988-89
6 Clyde Drexler POR 28.87 1988-89
7 Lafayette Lever DEN 27.48 1988-89
8 Patrick Ewing NYK 27.46 1988-89
9 John Stockton UTA 27.40 1988-89
10 Kevin Johnson PHO 27.06 1988-89
11 Robert Parish BOS 26.10 1988-89
12 Chris Mullin GSW 26.01 1988-89
13 Tom Chambers PHO 24.11 1988-89
14 Moses Malone ATL 23.84 1988-89
15 Kevin Mchale BOS 23.68 1988-89
16 Dominique Wilkins ATL 22.84 1988-89
17 Larry Nance CLE 22.66 1988-89
18 Terry Porter POR 22.42 1988-89
19 Brad Daugherty CLE 22.37 1988-89
20 Mark Price CLE 22.33 1988-89



He ended up 10th right behind Stockton both years.

[Glove_20]

Why is everybody stuck on KJ being 21st?

I said 30-40 from the beggining, you could make a case for the 20s, but in the end, the injuries are going to push him back in the 30s.

I don't see how Stockton was better than KJ in his prime, or even Clyde.




And KBlaze, I never said I'd take Cousy over Nash at his peak either. I just saying Nash was "way" better than Cousy ever was off, and thats what I was arguing. And I still stand by that statement.

All players shot low %s back then, so the % isn't as bad as it really is. Not only that, he was Top 3 in the league in scoring twice, not 100% sure on that, but I am pretty sure, even finished 2nd in the league in scoring as well.

And passing/playmaking, I don't think I neeed to explain anymore on that. He was just as good as Magic and Stockton.



So based on all that, there is no way you can say Nash is WAY better than Cousy ever was. Cousy also won a MVP, and would've probably had 2 if the award existed before.

[GMATCallahan]

A great point being more valuable than a great player at most positions doesnt mean that when you compare the top players of all of them the points all belong over everyone but the centers. Too big a sample size from all of them. The best of the best from each position stand up to the best pointguards. And really only 2 points belong in the top 10-12 all time. All top 20 lists are are the best of the best. With 5 spots it wouldnt even take 5 players per position to put KJ below your highest estimates. There are about 11 people just as the 4 and 5 who were better than Kevin Johnson:

Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Ewing
Duncan
Malone
Barkley
Petitt

And there is only even one "Well maybe he accomplished more but you cant really prove hes better" on that list. All the rest are either no brainers or guys who played with KJ and were considered flat out better. KJ is getting a higher ranking in retrospect than he did in his prime. Kinda like Pistol Pete....though id take him over Pistol Pete....


Bird
Doc
Baylor
Hondo
Barry
Pippen
Jordan
West
Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Hayes

Plus you would have to put him over some of these guys.

I don't disagree with you here, and I have no problem with putting any of these guys over K.J. In fact, I might do so myself. I was just speaking to the range at which a point guard of K.J.'s caliber and efficacy could begin to enter the conversation.


Thats putting KJ on a level with the best of the best of the best all time. And that no matter how stretched or well written simply cant be done for a guy who in his prime was considered a peer with Tim Hardaway,, Chris Mullin, and so on who wouldnt even crack top 50. Speaking of which...

K.J. was also a peer of Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, and even Magic Johnson at times. He certainly wasn't as great as Magic overall, but in 1991, the Sporting News debated whether Magic or K.J. was the better point guard and Charles Barkley later claimed in Sports Illustrated that K.J. was the best point guard in basketball that year.

He was the best point guard in basketball. He was unstoppable.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/1999/12/09/barkley_flashback1/

In 1989, long before they became teammates, Barkley offered similiar comments to the Washington Post.

Phoenix' Johnson Is Suns' Rising Star; [FINAL Edition]
Chris Cobbs. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 16, 1989. pg. e.06

Johnson has needed only two pro seasons to establish himself as a legitimate NBA star. Some observers believe he's approaching an elite group, composed of Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley, that deserves consideration for most valuable player. Barkley himself has said that K.J. may be the league's premier point guard.

These viewpoints are supported by empirical evidence. K.J. and Magic are the only two players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season, and they each did it twice, with K.J. missing a third such season by .001 on his field goal percentage. Compare their individual and team performance on a yearly basis from 1989-1991.

1989:

Magic Johnson: 22.5 points, 12.8 assists, .509 field goal percentage, 57-25 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to NBA Finals (beat K.J.'s Suns 4-0 in Western Conference Finals

Kevin Johnson: 20.4 points, 12.2 assists, .505 field goal percentage, 55-27 regular season in Pacific Division , advanced to Western Conference Finals (lost to Magic's Lakers 4-0)

1990:

Magic Johnson: 22.3 points, 11.5 assists, .480 field goal percentage, 63-19 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to Western Conference Semifinals (lost to K.J.'s Suns 4-1)

Kevin Johnson: 22.5 points, 11.4 assists, .499 field goal percentage, 54-28 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to Western Conference Finals (beat Magic's Lakers 4-1)

1991:

Magic Johnson: 19.4 points, 12.5 assists, .477 field goal percentage, 58-24 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to NBA Finals

Kevin Johnson: 22.2 points, 10.1 assists, .516 field goal percentage, 55-27 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to Western Conference First Round

Now, Magic holds a slight edge based on that information, and obviously he enjoys a large advantage in basketball history. But in the late eighties and early nineties, K.J. was challenging him, playing in his ballpark (they started the 1991 All-Star Game together for the Western Conference), and was a definite rival. Consider the following quotation from L.A. Times sportswriter Randey Harvey from May 1990:

Suns Find a Forum to Show That They Have Come of Age; [Home Edition]
RANDY HARVEY. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 16, 1990. pg. 6

Kevin Johnson is the player that Isiah Thomas is supposed to be, the real Pocket Magic. He even has the right last name.

There is no doubting him now. After he played less than his best in the first two games, the Suns' coaches told him that he was thinking too much, that he was taking only what the Lakers gave him. They told him to take what he wanted.

He was the second-best Johnson on the court Tuesday night, but not by much. While the Lakers' Magic scored 43 points and had seven assists, the Suns' Kevin had 37 points and eight assists.

That excerpt also pretty much answers the question of whether K.J. was a rival of Isiah Thomas. If you need any more evidence, go back and read the L.A. Times article that I posted earlier that compares K.J. and Thomas. If you want any more proof, consider the empirical evidence with an old post of mine:

Actually, in terms of statistical efficacy, it's more like Isiah Thomas was a poor man's Kevin Johnson (more accurately, it's more that Tim Hardaway/Rod Strickland were a poor man's Isiah Thomas/Kevin Johnson). K.J. was much more efficient from the field (a career .493 field goal percentage to Thomas' .452), far more efficient from the foul line (a career .841 free throw percentage to Thomas' .759), and he took much better care of the basketball (3.1 turnovers per game for his career to Thomas' 3.8). K.J.'s career assists-to-turnovers ratio was 2.97:1.00, whereas Thomas' was just 2.46:1.00, and their points and assists averages were about the same. In K.J.'s nine prime seasons (1989-1997), he averaged 19.8 points and 10.0 assists (shooting .497/.839 with 3.3 turnovers); in Thomas' nine prime seasons (1983-1991), he averaged 20.1 points and 9.9 assists (shooting .462/.770 with 3.8 turnovers).

K.J. also proved similarly brilliant in the postseason, and in 1998, the Sporting News named both K.J. and Isiah Thomas as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s (behind Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler on the First Team, with Gary Payton nowhere in sight). However, because "Zeke" won two rings, he will understandably be remembered more vividly in history. I'll certainly give him credit for twice reaching the top of the mountain, because that's what the game is all about (although as "rikemaru" has pointed out, Thomas enjoyed the team defensive support to compensate for his inefficiencies).

If you want more evidence, consider the following quotation from the Washington Post's Michael Wilbon in 1990.

After Hours, It Was Showtime; [FINAL Edition]
MICHAEL WILBON. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1990. pg. d.01

The only point guard in the league better than Kevin Johnson is Magic.

Yes, that would include Isiah Thomas, as well as John Stockton. K.J. went through both Stockton and Magic in 1990 playoffs, and while these quotations don't represent the gospel, neither do MVPs and top-fifty lists that are determined by the same types of people offering these quotations. You can't choose to believe these people in some cases but not in others. Likewise, K.J. was the only guard to make the All-NBA Second Team each year from 1989-1991, while Magic and Jordan possessed a joint stranglehold on the First Team. Isiah Thomas last made any All-NBA Team in 1987, and K.J. finished higher than Stockton (Third Team) in 1991. The same writers who vote for MVPs and top-fifty lists also vote for All-NBA Teams, so if you're going to give yourself over to their supposedly holy judgment, then you must do so in this case as well and recognize that K.J. was very much a rival of Thomas and Stockton and that for awhile, many people considered him better than them.

Of course, I form my own conclusions irrespective of media analysis, and the fact that K.J. averaged 31 points and 11 assists (shooting 51% from the field) versus Stockton over a 14-game regular season stretch from 1989-1993 as the Suns went 10-4 versus the Jazz tells me that K.J. tended to dominate Stockton head-to-head and was very much a rival.

Obviously, I've proven that K.J. was as much a rival of Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, and John Stockton as he was a rival of Tim Hardaway and Chris Mullin. These groupings are far more fluid than your rigid classifications allow for, especially since at times, some people justifiably considered K.J. superior to Thomas and Stockton and wondered just how close he was to Magic, and if he might not have even surpassed him.

All-NBA Teams aren't everything, and K.J. would be snubbed by them later in his career. However, that tells you that MVPs and top-fifty lists should be treated with the exact same grains of salt. Instead of letting awards and the bias of other individuals determine your thinking, the analyst should analyze objectively based on one's own interpretation and the available empirical evidence.

[GMATCallahan]

KJ wasnt voted top 50 all time in 1996. Im sure you agree nothing after 96 made his legacy. Even with all these coaches and players talking him up that you post(you dedicate yourself enough damn near every great player has similar quotes on him). Got a list of legends, long long time media members who covered 30+ years, coaches, and so on voting and KJ did not crack top 50. Yet 12 years later having done nothing to add to his legacy he jumps from below 50 to arguably #21? He might be underrated...but hes not that underrated.

What you don't realize is that that top-fifty list was as much a popularity contest crafted for entertainment purposes as much as anything. Do you actually believe that the people who vote on such matters are archival basketball scholars in possession of Ph.D.s? How do you explain Shaq making the list after just four NBA seasons and having won no games in the NBA Finals while being swept out of the playoffs three years in a row? How about Dominique Wilkins not making it but now a member of the Hall of Fame? There were all kinds of questionable and debatable selections on a list derived from popularity and notoriety and for entertainment. The people who voted on the matter are just as biased as you or I, and you shouldn't bow down to the establishment like that. Question authority with a critical eye and penetrate the ideological scaffolding that imprisons your independent thought.


This is strictly a fan made thing by his supporters to put him as highly as possible. It isnt and wouldnt be supported by any non biased group of fans(even thosel ike me who remember and loved KJs game). It wouldnt be supported by coaches. Not by players. No group of people could you poll and get KJ nearly this high and id bet anything on it.

Only his own fans.

Again, have you considered that everyone is potentially biased, and that people in the public spotlight feel greater pressure to conform to dogma and act in politically correct and fallacious manners? You're making a huge mistake by assuming that I am biased, but that these other groups are perfectly objective and scholarly. They're not, and they're more suscpetible to the sway of reputation and less inclined toward objective analysis.



Well yea I mentioned that. The non elites is a long long list that gives fans of borderline elites a lot of ammo to put guys higher than they deserve due to the flaws of the people on that level. That doesnt mean its right to do it. Or thats its accurate. It would take too much conflicting logic player to player to put him over as many legends as one would need to.

Again, you're basing your analysis on slipshod mythology rather than objective inquiry. Who defines a "legend'? What is a "legend"? Might not a "legend" be a chimera and as much a product of reputation as reality?




Considering the fact that a few non 20/10 points are still considered btter(and with good reason) that isnt that major. Its impressive. But im pressive in the way Steve Francis being on a list with Magic, Oscar, and Grant Hill as the only 15/5/5 players over their first 3 years players. Or arenas being the only player with 2000 points and 200 threes and 500FTs in a season(that not exactly it but he has one of those records similar to it). Those stat minimum records will bring up some odd players if you look across the board.

I'm talking about more cystal-clear statistical standards. 15/5/5 is pretty meaningless; in 1992, Jeff Hornacek did 20/5/5, so what? As for the Arenas numbers, that just a sign that he's a gunner, nothing more. You're using feckless measures as opposed to major standards in points, assists, and field goal percengtage.




Cmon now. Did KJ himself lead a team closer to a title than Ray Allen, Rasheed Wallace, or Paul Pierce who all went to conference finals? Paul Westphal who went to the finals and made more than one all nba first team? Gus Williams who won a title? Plenty of guys not on KJs level all time managed to win on his level or close to it. And plenty of guys above KJs level didnt win beyond what he was able to. Doesnt make him their equal anymore than it makes Gus Williams KJs equal. Take 20-30 teams over 60 years(I know there were not hat many team for the whole 60) a lot of guys who dont deserve high rank will win as much or more than guys who do. Sideeffect of being a team sport.

A) Ray Allen made one conference finals in an extremely weak Eastern Conference, and it wasn't even clear that he was the leader of that 2001 Milwaukee team. Instead, there was no dominant star among him, Sam Cassell, and Glenn Robinson.

B) Likewise, Paul Pierce made one conference finals in an extremely weak Eastern Confernce in 2002.

C) It was certainly never clear that Rasheed Wallace was the leader of the 2000 Trail Blazers, who featured the virtual defintion of an ensemble cast.

D) K.J. played in three conference finals and actually reached the NBA Finals. You could suggest that he didn't "lead" the Suns in '93, but consider that he was just as vital to the franchise's championship chances as his more famous teammate. Although Charles Barkley was Phoenix's best player that season, K.J. was just as vital to the team's championship chances. First, let's remember that Barkley needed K.J. and the Suns as much as vice-versa. In the spring of 1992, the Western Conference championship was going through perennial contender Phoenix for the third time in four years, whereas Barkley wasn't in the playoffs, period. In the four seasons prior to Sir Charles' arrival in Arizona, the Suns won 217 regular season games (the fifth-most in the NBA) and advanced to two Western Conference Finals and three Western Conference Semifinals. Barkley pushed them over the top in the West, but the Suns were actually doing just fine without him.

Second, consider the start of the 1993 playoffs. After the following regular season victory in late April 1993 in Portland, Barkley raised K.J. off the ground in celebration.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1992&b=19930422&tm=POR

Predictably, K.J. received the worst of the collision, suffering a sprained MCL that was supposed to keep him out for most, if not all, of the Suns' First Round series with the 39-win, eighth-seeded Lakers. Well, considering the quality of the opponent and Barkley's presence, there should have been no problem, even without K.J., right? But without Johnson in Game One, the Suns lost at home, with the Lakers shutting down Barkley in the fourth quarter. K.J. returned well ahead of schedule for Game Two but was limited my a mechanical knee brace, and again the 62-win Suns lost at home to the 39-win Lakers, as again Barkley disappeared down the stretch (he regularly tired late in games because his conditioning was subpar).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6yogMKQbNCU

With the Suns now having to go to Los Angeles and face elimination in the best-of-five series, the prognosis appeared bleak. However, Phoenix head coach Paul Westphal offered a daring prognostication. At his press conference after Game Two, he said that the Suns would come back to win each of the next three games, and that afterward, everyone would say what a great series it had been. Sure enough, they did just that, with K.J. going for 24 points and 13 assists in the overtime victory in winner-take-all Game Five. Afterwards, Westphal revealed the reason for his confidence after Game Two, saying that he had seen that K.J.'s knee was improving and that the Suns would have something more like the real Kevin Johnson for the remainder of the series. Without K.J., Barkley and the 62-win Suns would have been swept out of the playoffs by a 39-win eighth seed (Game Three in L.A. had been extremely close), and Sir Charles would have received his MVP trophy on the golf course. And as Seattle's Eddie Johnson said about Game Seven of the 1993 Western Confernce Finals, "Everybody talks about Barkley, but Kevin Johnson won them the game today" (see my post earlier in the thread).

[GMATCallahan]

E) You see, I don't think that Garnett, Iverson, Nowitzki, and Nash were better players than K.J., regardless of the team factor. And if they were so much better, than they should have clearly led their teams to greater success, which they have failed to do. Just because they won MVP awards in a relatively weak era does not make them better.

It's important to look beyond subjective judgments such as awards and honors, which, after all, are just a reflection of other people's bias. What's amusing is that you seem to believe that sportswriters are somehow holy and perfectly objective when they are just as biased as the average person behind a computer and possibly more so because their opinions are public and thus engender a sense of political correctness.

Iverson is woefully inefficient compared to K.J., he is a far inferior playmaker, and he cannot elevate the performance of his teammates or run an offense anywhere near as well as K.J. Garnett has historically struggled to take over games and has made it out of the First Round once in a dozen NBA seasons. Nowitzki is prone to folding in clutch moments and is a subpar defender and merely an adequate passer, and Nash is similar to K.J. but his numbers are no better and he has not led a team to greater success (nor has he made the Finals). Again, it's imperative to analyze based on what occurs between the white lines rather than with biased judgments made off the field, ones that are only pertinent in terms of shifting historical contexts.

[ScottStuart]

Put it this way, if KJ would have won a championship during his career, we would be talking about him being a hall of famer right now. If the Suns would have beat the bulls, he would have been elevated a few notches.

[GMATCallahan]

Bob Mcadoo was for a time considered the equal of Kareem. Kevin Johnson at his peak was ranked as the equal of Tim Hardaway. I think we are overrating the level KJ reached when we question if MVPs hit a higher level of play.

I think that you are worrying too much about how players may or may not have been "ranked" (which is just as much a source of bias as any that you or I might hold) rather than examining the matter more comprehensively. McAdoo was never Kareem's overall equal (looking beyond points and rebounds to defense, and not just blocked shots) and he never led the Buffalo Braves to a single 50-win season or the Eastern Conference Finals. That wasn't necessarily his fault, but he didn't elevate his teammates to any great degree and he was soft. Read the analysis of longtime basketball writer, author, and historian Charley Rosen, and check out some of the other players that he deems overrated:

Bob McAdoo

Here's all anyone needs to know about McAdoo's game: When he played against the Celtics, McAdoo was usually defended by Dave Cowens. Now Cowens was a legitimate tough guy who always played with intensity, power, and courage, and whose rough-house tactics on defense would often approach minor felonies. At the start of McAdoo's matchups with Cowens, B-Mac would assume his favorite position on the left box. Perhaps he'd even get a shot off. Perhaps he'd even get fouled. But Cowens would definitely assault him with elbows, knees, hips, forearms, and fists. By the middle of the first quarter, McAdoo would post-up five feet beyond the box. By the end of the fourth quarter, he'd be looking to receive the ball near the 3-point line. Anything to avoid contact. In other words, McAdoo was nothing more than a big, quick, soft, jump-shooter deluxe.

http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=100850

Now, I'm not saying that K.J. should necessarily be ranked above McAdoo, but McAdoo was hardly Abdul-Jabbar's overall equal, especially when you go beyond points and rebounds and examine defense (and not just blocked shots, either). Likewise, Tim Hardaway was hardly K.J.'s equal. For his career, K.J. shot .493 from the field and averaged 9.1 assists to Hardaway's .431 field goal percentage and 8.3 assists, and for his career, K.J. attempted 6.4 free throws per game (shooting .841) to Hardaway's 3.8 FTA (shooting .782). And regarding cross-over dribbles, consider the following quotation from Hakeem Olajuwon on page 282 of the Dream's 1996 autobiography, Living the Dream:

K.J. finishes better than almost any guard in the league. He has one of the best crossover dribbles in the NBA. Tim Hardaway crosses over but then he has to hit his jump shot, K.J. crosses over and beats you and goes to the basket. That's different. He's coming full speed, then all of a sudden he changes direction and sees a clear path to the basket. When he's on his game, by the time I come over to block him I'm always a second too late, he's putting it on the glass before I get there. If I go too soon he draws the foul as well. He knows how to get you to foul him and how to make the basket at the same time.

I also recall that Inside Sports magazine rated the NBA's point guards in its February 1993 edition, and its "insiders" (a collection of about ten executives, assistant coaches, and scouts) placed K.J. second (behind John Stockton) and Hardaway third. The blurb on K.J. mentioned that originally, the "insiders" had seen him as more of a runner, but that he'd learned to slow down his thinking really well (i.e. in the half-court). The blurb on Hardaway, meanwhile, noted that the "insiders" saw Hardaway as an even stronger and more aggressive version of K.J. in some ways, but also as less of a team leader (which is obviously what you need from a star point guard).

Aside from three-point shooting over the course of a career, I can't think of anything that Hardaway did better or as effectively as K.J. It's telling that Hardaway played in zero NBA Finals, one conference finals (and even that one was due to a brawl that wiped out half the Knicks' team in 1997), and two conference semifinals, whereas K.J. played in one NBA Finals, three conference finals, and seven conference semifinals. K.J. was so much more efficient and consistent, but Hardaway received more buzz because he ran his mouth more and Nike featured him in some supposedly hip "I Got Skillz" commercials.


Billups was who I meant when I mentioned exceptions. But there would need to be a hell of a lot more than there are. Its basically Billups, Gus Williams or Dennis Johnson, and 2-3 guys before 1956. Not nearly enough.

Ive been saying the same thing for years. glove has argued with me over that for at least a few months whenever it comes up just because id take Steve Nash, Payton, Kidd, Isiah, and most modern points who proved themselves over him. KJ included. I just dont trust the skill set of a guy who predates the modern jumper. Not in a pointguard.

Hes also my second favorite player ever(Bulls fan since 83). But I cant let my bias blind me to reality. I refuse to be one of the fans propping up my favorite more than they justify just because I feel they are underrated. More often than not a non fan of th guy has a more accurate rating than a hardcore fan. We tend to overrate our guys more than non fans underrate them. Need the disconnect to rank it fairly. I think youre a reasonable guy who probably knows the game but really....nothing but bias could make one think Kevin Johnson is that high. There is just no other way.

I am thinking objectively here, but what I'm not doing is just going by reputation and image, which is the basis for way too much so-called analysis. As I've proven with detailed empirical evidence in this thread, K.J.'s level of statistical performance in the most vital areas for a star playmaker was extremely rare and frankly has only been mirrored, approached, or exceeded by Magic Johnson and possibly Oscar Robertson. He was one of the greatest point guards of all-time, and I think that many of the great point guards in history begin to enter the equation in the twenties.

I think that you made too much of a loose, conceptual comment regarding 21-40 for K.J. I was not thinking specifically but philosophically, and more directly, I'd say something in the 26-40 range.

The bottom line is that you need to realize that bias floats all-around. It's not about me liking Kevin Johnson or Scottie Pippen, because I've liked other players as well. It's about analyzing independently based on empirical evidence (meaning statistical data and team success within relative contexts), plus visual information available via video. It's not about complying with mythic and predefined notions of legends and legacies and holy scribes who determine other people's opinions. It's not about letting go of one's own bias only to bow down to the bias of others who subjectively vote on lists and MVP awards, nor is it about adding up championships irrespective of era and other temporally fickle factors. Instead, it's about gathering all the available information and statistical data, weighing the various factors, and determining which players could offer the most. It's about independent judgments rather than submitting to politically correct dogma for the purposes of entertainment, and realizing that specific lists are inherently fallacious and that there is no clear standard. And if after all that, I deem Scottie Pippen one of the twenty-five greatest players ever, and Kevin Johnson one of the 26-40 best, then so be it (personally, I don't know where exactly I'd place K.J., especially since I don't even believe in such lists). What's important, though, is to think inductively rather than adhering to deductive and chimerical standards of what constitutes a legend or the most effective players, especially when that constitution is often nothing more than the bias inherent in a writer's MVP vote.

[GMATCallahan]

Another thing about Kev, in his prime he probally was never a 10 player of his era (late 80's to early 90's)

He sure wasn't a top 5 player fighting against these guys:

Jordan
Magic
Dream
Chuck
Glide
Robinson
Pat Ew
Stockton
Malone
Zeke Thomas
'Nique

Then you have players maybe closer to his level (above or below-you decide)


Worthy
McHale
Timmy Hardaway
Mullin
Joe D
Terry Porter
Pippen
Mitch Richmond
Kemp
Alvin Robertson (yes him)
Rodman


So I think it's very hard to put Kevin Johnson as a top 21 player ever, when he sometimes wasn't even a top 10 player. This is not any hate towared KJ as he was one of my faves.

If K.J. was never a top-ten player in the late eighties and early nineties, then how do you explain his four All-NBA Second Teams (1989, 1990, 1991, 1994), in an absolutely loaded era where the two greatest guards in history (Magic and Jordan) owned the First Team? How do you explain a level of statistical performance for his position that only Magic Johnson has touched in history? How do you explain the quotes that I've just posted above? K.J. was most certainly in the same league as Stockton, Thomas, Drexler, and possibly even Magic during those years. That's proven in the numbers, the "honors" (as gingerly as you have to treat them, because K.J. would often be snubbed later in his career), and the journalistic obersvations that I've just quoted. Again, one L.A. Times writer claimed that "Kevin Johnson is the player that Isiah Thomas is supposed to be, the real pocket Magic."

I don't think that I'd put K.J. in the top 21 either. However, 26-40 is worthy of contemplation. To me, he's certainly a top-five-to-top-ten all-time point guard.

[Glove_20]

:applause:
Well done


I wasn't lying when I said GMAT is the best debator ever.

[L.Kizzle]

If K.J. was never a top-ten player in the late eighties and early nineties, then how do you explain his four All-NBA Second Teams (1989, 1990, 1991, 1994), in an absolutely loaded era where the two greatest guards in history (Magic and Jordan) owned the First Team? How do you explain a level of statistical performance for his position that only Magic Johnson has touched in history? How do you explain the quotes that I've just posted above? K.J. was most certainly in the same league as Stockton, Thomas, Drexler, and possibly even Magic during those years. That's proven in the numbers, the "honors" (as gingerly as you have to treat them, because K.J. would often be snubbed later in his career), and the journalistic obersvations that I've just quoted. Again, one L.A. Times writer claimed that "Kevin Johnson is the player that Isiah Thomas is supposed to be, the real pocket Magic."

I don't think that I'd put K.J. in the top 21 either. However, 26-40 is worthy of contemplation. To me, he's certainly a top-five-to-top-ten all-time point guard.
Yeah KJ did make 4 al-2nd teams, but those don't really tel lthe whole story. Hell, Rod Stricklnd made an All-NBA 2nd squad in 97 ot 98 and he wasn't a top
10 player, ever.


KJ was probally a top 10 player in 1990 or very close to it around 11 or 12.

[GMATCallahan]

By the number(eff) this was the top 20 in his best overall season. Im not saying it proves anything but its a little interesting to see.

1 Michael Jordan CHI 34.57 1989-90
2 Hakeem Olajuwon HOU 32.38 1989-90
3 Patrick Ewing NYK 32.34 1989-90
4 Karl Malone UTA 31.88 1989-90
5 Charles Barkley PHI 31.67 1989-90
6 David Robinson SAS 30.56 1989-90
7 Magic Johnson LAL 30.49 1989-90
8 Larry Bird BOS 29.27 1989-90
9 John Stockton UTA 27.10 1989-90
10 Kevin Johnson PHO 26.34 1989-90
11 Chris Mullin GSW 25.82 1989-90
12 Clyde Drexler POR 25.52 1989-90
13 Lafayette Lever DEN 24.53 1989-90
14 Tom Chambers PHO 24.47 1989-90
15 Kevin Mchale BOS 24.21 1989-90
16 Dominique Wilkins ATL 23.58 1989-90
17 Roy Tarpley DAL 22.71 1989-90
18 Mark Price CLE 22.42 1989-90
19 James Worthy LAL 22.29 1989-90
20 Reggie Miller IND 22.18 1989-90


In his best season going just by numbers:

1 Michael Jordan CHI 36.99 1988-89
2 Magic Johnson LAL 33.31 1988-89
3 Charles Barkley PHI 32.68 1988-89
4 Hakeem Olajuwon HOU 31.02 1988-89
5 Karl Malone UTA 29.53 1988-89
6 Clyde Drexler POR 28.87 1988-89
7 Lafayette Lever DEN 27.48 1988-89
8 Patrick Ewing NYK 27.46 1988-89
9 John Stockton UTA 27.40 1988-89
10 Kevin Johnson PHO 27.06 1988-89
11 Robert Parish BOS 26.10 1988-89
12 Chris Mullin GSW 26.01 1988-89
13 Tom Chambers PHO 24.11 1988-89
14 Moses Malone ATL 23.84 1988-89
15 Kevin Mchale BOS 23.68 1988-89
16 Dominique Wilkins ATL 22.84 1988-89
17 Larry Nance CLE 22.66 1988-89
18 Terry Porter POR 22.42 1988-89
19 Brad Daugherty CLE 22.37 1988-89
20 Mark Price CLE 22.33 1988-89



He ended up 10th right behind Stockton both years.

EFF is grossly skewed toward rebounds, which are less rare and less valuable than assists (which lead directly to baskets, whereas rebounds just grant you possession). There's no way that Fat Lever was better than Stockton and K.J., and it obviously cannot measure defense beyond blocks and steals.

EFF can retain a little value in comparing players of a similar position or type. However, if you wish to employ the metric, it does indicate K.J.'s career greatness among all-time guards (I'm counting Paul Pierce as a small forward at this point).

1. Oscar Robertson 31.61
2. Michael Jordan 29.19
3. Magic Johnson 29.10
4. Jerry West 27.10
5. Clyde Drexler 22.42
6. Dwyane Wade 22.23
7. Kevin Johnson 21.56

[Glove_20]

Yeah KJ did make 4 al-2nd teams, but those don't really tel lthe whole story. Hell, Rod Stricklnd made an All-NBA 2nd squad in 97 ot 98 and he wasn't a top
10 player, ever.


KJ was probally a top 10 player in 1990 or very close to it around 11 or 12.
I doubt Rod Strickland was around the time where Jordan, Drexler, Magic, Isiah, Stockton, and more were all around their primes/peaks.

There is a huge difference.



I remember you saying Gary Payton is a better 90s PG than Kevin Johnson. I am a huge Gary Payton fan, but I think there is another place you underrate Kevin Johnson. Even though I am a big Payton fan, I'd put KJ over Payton in the 90s anyday.

The problem is, your just underrating KJ a bit.

The 90s PG goes:

Stockton
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton

[GMATCallahan]

Yeah KJ did make 4 al-2nd teams, but those don't really tel lthe whole story. Hell, Rod Stricklnd made an All-NBA 2nd squad in 97 ot 98 and he wasn't a top
10 player, ever.


KJ was probally a top 10 player in 1990 or very close to it around 11 or 12.

Actually, I think that Strickland had a case for being the game's best point guard in 1998. He led the NBA in assists average that season by a wide margin.

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leadersbyseason.htm?stat=apg&lg=n&yr=1997

I know that All-NBA Teams don't reveal the whole story, because K.J. received the shaft later in his career (finishing behind Latrell Sprewell for a First Team guard slot in 1994, not making it entirely in 1997 when he had a great case for the First Team). Even in 1996, he deserved more consideration. But when K.J. did make it, his statistics supported his case and to the larger point, people did consider him a top-ten player.

Your final analysis about K.J. in the nineties is fair enough.

[GMATCallahan]

I doubt Rod Strickland was around the time where Jordan, Drexler, Magic, Isiah, Stockton, and more were all around their primes/peaks.

There is a huge difference.



I remember you saying Gary Payton is a better 90s PG than Kevin Johnson. I am a huge Gary Payton fan, but I think there is another place you underrate Kevin Johnson. Even though I am a big Payton fan, I'd put KJ over Payton in the 90s anyday.

The problem is, your just underrating KJ a bit.

The 90s PG goes:

Stockton
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton

Yes, I would agree with that, even though I would take K.J. head-to-head against Stockton (for the reasons that I explained earlier) and for peak value. Stockton's durability, however, just cannot be ignored.

[Kblaze8855]

K.J. was also a peer of Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, and even Magic Johnson at times. He certainly wasn't as great as Magic overall, but in 1991, the Sporting News debated whether Magic or K.J. was the better point guard and Charles Barkley later claimed in Sports Illustrated that K.J. was the best point guard in basketball that year.

He was the best point guard in basketball. He was unstoppable.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...ey_flashback1/

In 1989, long before they became teammates, Barkley offered similiar comments to the Washington Post.

Phoenix' Johnson Is Suns' Rising Star; [FINAL Edition]
Chris Cobbs. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 16, 1989. pg. e.06

Johnson has needed only two pro seasons to establish himself as a legitimate NBA star. Some observers believe he's approaching an elite group, composed of Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and Charles Barkley, that deserves consideration for most valuable player. Barkley himself has said that K.J. may be the league's premier point guard.

These viewpoints are supported by empirical evidence. K.J. and Magic are the only two players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season, and they each did it twice, with K.J. missing a third such season by .001 on his field goal percentage. Compare their individual and team performance on a yearly basis from 1989-1991.

1989:

Magic Johnson: 22.5 points, 12.8 assists, .509 field goal percentage, 57-25 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to NBA Finals (beat K.J.'s Suns 4-0 in Western Conference Finals

Kevin Johnson: 20.4 points, 12.2 assists, .505 field goal percentage, 55-27 regular season in Pacific Division , advanced to Western Conference Finals (lost to Magic's Lakers 4-0)

1990:

Magic Johnson: 22.3 points, 11.5 assists, .480 field goal percentage, 63-19 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to Western Conference Semifinals (lost to K.J.'s Suns 4-1)

Kevin Johnson: 22.5 points, 11.4 assists, .499 field goal percentage, 54-28 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to Western Conference Finals (beat Magic's Lakers 4-1)

1991:

Magic Johnson: 19.4 points, 12.5 assists, .477 field goal percentage, 58-24 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to NBA Finals

Kevin Johnson: 22.2 points, 10.1 assists, .516 field goal percentage, 55-27 regular season in Pacific Division, advanced to Western Conference First Round

Now, Magic holds a slight edge based on that information, and obviously he enjoys a large advantage in basketball history. But in the late eighties and early nineties, K.J. was challenging him, playing in his ballpark (they started the 1991 All-Star Game together for the Western Conference), and was a definite rival. Consider the following quotation from L.A. Times sportswriter Randey Harvey from May 1990:

Suns Find a Forum to Show That They Have Come of Age; [Home Edition]
RANDY HARVEY. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 16, 1990. pg. 6

Kevin Johnson is the player that Isiah Thomas is supposed to be, the real Pocket Magic. He even has the right last name.

There is no doubting him now. After he played less than his best in the first two games, the Suns' coaches told him that he was thinking too much, that he was taking only what the Lakers gave him. They told him to take what he wanted.

He was the second-best Johnson on the court Tuesday night, but not by much. While the Lakers' Magic scored 43 points and had seven assists, the Suns' Kevin had 37 points and eight assists.

That excerpt also pretty much answers the question of whether K.J. was a rival of Isiah Thomas. If you need any more evidence, go back and read the L.A. Times article that I posted earlier that compares K.J. and Thomas. If you want any more proof, consider the empirical evidence with an old post of mine:

Actually, in terms of statistical efficacy, it's more like Isiah Thomas was a poor man's Kevin Johnson (more accurately, it's more that Tim Hardaway/Rod Strickland were a poor man's Isiah Thomas/Kevin Johnson). K.J. was much more efficient from the field (a career .493 field goal percentage to Thomas' .452), far more efficient from the foul line (a career .841 free throw percentage to Thomas' .759), and he took much better care of the basketball (3.1 turnovers per game for his career to Thomas' 3.8). K.J.'s career assists-to-turnovers ratio was 2.97:1.00, whereas Thomas' was just 2.46:1.00, and their points and assists averages were about the same. In K.J.'s nine prime seasons (1989-1997), he averaged 19.8 points and 10.0 assists (shooting .497/.839 with 3.3 turnovers); in Thomas' nine prime seasons (1983-1991), he averaged 20.1 points and 9.9 assists (shooting .462/.770 with 3.8 turnovers).

K.J. also proved similarly brilliant in the postseason, and in 1998, the Sporting News named both K.J. and Isiah Thomas as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s (behind Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler on the First Team, with Gary Payton nowhere in sight). However, because "Zeke" won two rings, he will understandably be remembered more vividly in history. I'll certainly give him credit for twice reaching the top of the mountain, because that's what the game is all about (although as "rikemaru" has pointed out, Thomas enjoyed the team defensive support to compensate for his inefficiencies).

If you want more evidence, consider the following quotation from the Washington Post's Michael Wilbon in 1990.

After Hours, It Was Showtime; [FINAL Edition]
MICHAEL WILBON. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1990. pg. d.01

The only point guard in the league better than Kevin Johnson is Magic.

Yes, that would include Isiah Thomas, as well as John Stockton. K.J. went through both Stockton and Magic in 1990 playoffs, and while these quotations don't represent the gospel, neither do MVPs and top-fifty lists that are determined by the same types of people offering these quotations. You can't choose to believe these people in some cases but not in others. Likewise, K.J. was the only guard to make the All-NBA Second Team each year from 1989-1991, while Magic and Jordan possessed a joint stranglehold on the First Team. Isiah Thomas last made any All-NBA Team in 1987, and K.J. finished higher than Stockton (Third Team) in 1991. The same writers who vote for MVPs and top-fifty lists also vote for All-NBA Teams, so if you're going to give yourself over to their supposedly holy judgment, then you must do so in this case as well and recognize that K.J. was very much a rival of Thomas and Stockton and that for awhile, many people considered him better than them.

Of course, I form my own conclusions irrespective of media analysis, and the fact that K.J. averaged 31 points and 11 assists (shooting 51% from the field) versus Stockton over a 14-game regular season stretch from 1989-1993 as the Suns went 10-4 versus the Jazz tells me that K.J. tended to dominate Stockton head-to-head and was very much a rival.

Obviously, I've proven that K.J. was as much a rival of Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, and John Stockton as he was a rival of Tim Hardaway and Chris Mullin. These groupings are far more fluid than your rigid classifications allow for, especially since at times, some people justifiably considered K.J. superior to Thomas and Stockton and wondered just how close he was to Magic, and if he might not have evern surpassed him.

All-NBA Teams aren't everything, and K.J. would be snubbed by them later in his career. However, that tells you that MVPs and top-fifty lists should be treated with the exact same grains of salt. Instead of letting awards and the bias of other individuals determine your thinking, the analyst should analyse objectively based on one's own interpretation and the available empirical evidence.

Let me see if I understand...because someone somewhere believed it I should consider it a widespread opinion? Or important? SI ranked Terrell Brandon as the best point in the league over Kidd and Payton at one point. just last year there were huge discussions on if Arenas was better than Kobe or not. Shaq has said AI is one of the 5 greatest players of all time. Kareem said Earl the goat was the best player he ever saw. Wilt chamberlain ranked harlem globetrotter teammate Meadowlark Lemon as a starter on his all time team with Michael Jordan as the 6th man. Barkley said Mchale was the best player he ever played against yet I notice people dont rank him over Malone and Duncan. Bird said Dennis Johnson was the best player he ever played with yet it seems most give Mchale and Parish more credit. Magic Johnson said Michael Ray Richardson was the best player he ever played against at one point in the 80s.

Point? anyone dedicated enough to find articles from years past or looking just to find someone propping a guy up is probably gonna get a lot of crazy things in the process. The mere fact that someone says something doesnt make it true or even credible. Hell it doesnt even always mean they believe it since so many people will later contradict themselves.

Some old article where a reporter makes a statement is of no importance to me. I didnt mention the players, media, and coaches votes to say they are infallible. I mentioned them because you quoted some of the people who voted on the top 50 list so I mentioned the list to show that it doesnt seem many of those types did consider Kevin so good.

You clearly have a thing with Kevin Johnson and probably articles saved in some little folder for the express purpose of defending or propping him up at every chance. Those types who go to those lengths just dont change theirs minds or begin to see things the way the rest of the world do. So I have no intention of changing your opinion(or belief that I could).

But quotes just dont do much. Any great player has people spouting hyperboles and media members writing articles. Because you have a KJ thing and therefore keep track of it doesnt mean hes the only one it exists for.

Common sense it all it takes to tell Magic was flat better than Kevin Johnson and that Isiah historically is on another level. As I said earlier it takes too many conflicting points to put him over this level of guys or even equal to them.

The quotes just dont matter much. making my Tim Hardaway video a while back an old NBA action episode had similar comments about him. Magic calling him unstoppable, Isiah talking about how great he is, Don Nelson comparing him to super heroes, and all that. Its what people do when great players come up.....exaggerate.

If someone in 15 years posts articles including the greatest praise ever lavished upon Tracy Mcgrady, Chris Webber, and Gilbert Arenas im sure people would oooo and aaah if they were the types to be impressed by such things. Ato ne time or another ive seen Tmac=Jordan articles, Webber>Duncan articles, and Arenas>Kobes ones too.

Doesnt make them accurate nor doesnt it mean the majority of the fanbase believed it at the time. Just means someone might.

I dont care what Michael Wilbon thinks on Isiah/KJ more than what he thought on Wade/Duncan(he ranked Wade as the best player in the league for some time). Its a good read and nothing more.

[GMATCallahan]

By the way, here's the abstract for the Sporting News story about K.J. possibly surpassing Magic by 1991:

Changing of the Guard
McManis, Sam. Sporting News. St. Louis: Feb 11, 1991. Vol. 211, Iss. 6; pg. 6
Abstract (Summary)
Earvin "Magic" Johnson has been named the NBA's Most Valuable Player for the last two seasons, but now Kevin Johnson, point guard for the Phoenix Suns, may supplant Magic as the best player on the court.

Do I agree with that analysis? Not necessarily, but that viewpoint should be viewed just as (if not more) seriously as a marketing stunt like that top-fifty list.

[Glove_20]

Thats strange KBlaze, you care a lot what the 50 greatest Player Voters say, however, you don't care about the people that say KJ is great.

Strange...

Caring about some, yet not caring about others....strange...

[Kblaze8855]

After a quick scan I see about 20 paragraphs on this issue directed to me. Im just not up to responding to 20 more paragraphs worth of information. Especially considering the fact there is no chance of changing anyones mind and the only people who consider KJ this high have to have a level of bias impossible to really do anything with. Some people rank Kobe top 20, some Dirk, some Nash, and some want to throw KJ higher than can be justified. I suppose KJ just isnt so often discussed that ive come to ignore the arguments like those other guys.

I like the guy. Decided he needed a little attention and praise since hes often underrated or flat out forgotten. But a 10 page 20 paragraph at a time argument on something maybe .01 percent of the basketball world would ever believe anyway?

That would take me caring waaaaaaaay more than I do about the issue. And I dont feel like getting to the point KJ annoys me because of people overrating him(like Dirk, Kobe, nash, and a few others have reached now and then). Carry on.....

[GMATCallahan]

Let me see if I understand...because someone somewhere believed it I should consider it a widespread opinion? Or important? SI ranked Terrell Brandon as the best point in the league over Kidd and Payton at one point. just last year there were huge discussions on if Arenas was better than Kobe or not. Shaq has said AI is one of the 5 greatest players of all time. Kareem said Earl the goat was the best player he ever saw. Wilt chamberlain ranked harlem globetrotter teammate Meadowlark Lemon as a starter on his all time team with Michael Jordan as the 6th man. Barkley said Mchale was the best player he ever played against yet I notice people dont rank him over Malone and Duncan. Bird said Dennis Johnson was the best player he ever played with yet it seems most give Mchale and Parish more credit. Magic Johnson said Michael Ray Richardson was the best player he ever played against at one point in the 80s.

Point? anyone dedicated enough to find articles from years past or looking just to find someone propping a guy up is probably gonna get a lot of crazy things in the process. The mere fact that someone says something doesnt make it true or even credible. Hell it doesnt even always mean they believe it since so many people will later contradict themselves.

Some old article where a reporter makes a statement is of no importance to me. I didnt mention the players, media, and coaches votes to say they are infallible. I mentioned them because you quoted some of the people who voted on the top 50 list so I mentioned the list to show that it doesnt seem many of those types did consider Kevin so good.

You clearly have a thing with Kevin Johnson and probably articles saved in some little folder for the express purpose of defending or propping him up at every chance. Those types who go to those lengths just dont change theirs minds or begin to see things the way the rest of the world do. So I have no intention of changing your opinion(or belief that I could).

But quotes just dont do much. Any great player has people spouting hyperboles and media members writing articles. Because you have a KJ thing and therefore keep track of it doesnt mean hes the only one it exists for.

Common sense it all it takes to tell Magic was flat better than Kevin Johnson and that Isiah historically is on another level. As I said earlier it takes too many conflicting points to put him over this level of guys or even equal to them.

The quotes just dont matter much. making my Tim Hardaway video a while back an old NBA action episode had similar comments about him. Magic calling him unstoppable, Isiah talking about how great he is, Don Nelson comparing him to super heroes, and all that. Its what people do when great players come up.....exaggerate.

If someone in 15 years posts articles including the greatest praise ever lavished upon Tracy Mcgrady, Chris Webber, and Gilbert Arenas im sure people would oooo and aaah if they were the types to be impressed by such things. Ato ne time or another ive seen Tmac=Jordan articles, Webber>Duncan articles, and Arenas>Kobes ones too.

Doesnt make them accurate nor doesnt it mean the majority of the fanbase believed it at the time. Just means someone might.

I dont care what Michael Wilbon thinks on Isiah/KJ more than what he thought on Wade/Duncan(he ranked Wade as the best player in the league for some time). Its a good read and nothing more.

Hey, I fully agree with your about Terrell Brandon on the cover of S.I. (although that judgment was based on a completely contrived ratings system rather than real intellectual analysis), and I agree that Magic was superior to K.J. (I never said anything different, except that they were rivals late in Magic's career), but now you're just being hypocritical. On the one hand, you cite MVP awards and top-fifty lists that are determined by writers like Michael Wilbon, but then you censure those same writers when they produce judgments that you don't care for. You can't have it both ways, clinging to journalistic observations when they match your tastes but derideing them when they contradict your deductive notions. That was my point, to show you that such standards break both ways and also to reveal that people back then did consider K.J. a rival of Magic/Thomas/Stockton, and not just Hardaway/Mullin. But most of all, the statistical evidence supports many of those observations.

And, no, I don't have any articles stored up. I just find them and post the quotes.

(By the way, Wilbon wasn't the only one saying that K.J. was better than Thomas at that time. I also quoted another writer, Randy Harvey, and look at the All-NBA Teams, determined by writers. Look at the statistics, too.)

If I really thought that K.J. was on Magic's historical plane, then I would put him in the top-ten all-time. Instead, I'm thinking 26-40, so I'm hardly delusional. But at one point, yes, they were rivals of a stripe and they went toe-to-toe at the top of the Western Conference, with each winning a series from the other and posting highly similar numbers.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats strange KBlaze, you care a lot what the 50 greatest Player Voters say, however, you don't care about the people that say KJ is great.

Strange...

Caring about some, yet not caring about others....strange...

Not really. I dont even think the top 50 was exactly accurate and ive said already id take him over a few guys on the list(Pistol Pete and Cousy for examples). I explained the top 50 list mention already. Just went to show that even if a select number of guys choose to rank KJ very high it either wasnt enough of them to matter in voting or those who said it then had changed their minds by the time they voted(a few guys he mentioned were on the voting panel).

Nobody has ever seen me say the top 50 list was 100% accurate. However....nobody on the list off the top of my head just pales in comparison to Kevin Johnson unless youre the "Everyone in the 50s sucked" type. Well actually I think Cousy is far below KJ but...thats a whole other discussion.

[L.Kizzle]

I doubt Rod Strickland was around the time where Jordan, Drexler, Magic, Isiah, Stockton, and more were all around their primes/peaks.

There is a huge difference.



I remember you saying Gary Payton is a better 90s PG than Kevin Johnson. I am a huge Gary Payton fan, but I think there is another place you underrate Kevin Johnson. Even though I am a big Payton fan, I'd put KJ over Payton in the 90s anyday.

The problem is, your just underrating KJ a bit.

The 90s PG goes:

Stockton
Kevin Johnson
Gary Payton
I remember that thread, I did it about 2-3 months or so ago.


KJ's best seasons (stat wise anyway) were 88-89 and 89-90, so those I considered 1980's seasons. GP's best seaons' were probally in the early part of this decade (stat wise). Looking back at it now, it's a tough choice to make as to who had the best career in the 90's out of the two. GP has way more awards and what not like All-Star games/All-NBA Games/All-D teams .

[GMATCallahan]

After a quick scan I see about 20 paragraphs on this issue directed to me. Im just not up to responding to 20 more paragraphs worth of information. Especially considering the fact there is no chance of changing anyones mind and the only people who consider KJ this high have to have a level of bias impossible to really do anything with. Some people rank Kobe top 20, some Dirk, some Nash, and some want to throw KJ higher than can be justified. I suppose KJ just isnt so often discussed that ive come to ignore the arguments like those other guys.

I like the guy. Decided he needed a little attention and praise since hes often underrated or flat out forgotten. But a 10 page 20 paragraph at a time argument on something maybe .01 percent of the basketball world would ever believe anyway?

That would take me caring waaaaaaaay more than I do about the issue. And I dont feel like getting to the point KJ annoys me because of people overrating him(like Dirk, Kobe, nash, and a few others have reached now and then). Carry on.....

The December 2006 edition of SLAM magazine stated that K.J. might be the most underrated player of his era. He's extremely underrated, not overrated.

Hey, you jumped all over me just because I suggested that one could start considering K.J. in the twenties. That's all I said, and your went nuts with it, when I'm just saying that that's where I'd start to look at many of the great point guards after Magic and Oscar. What's wrong with that, especially after I carefully support my arguments and don't comply with the brainwashing of the mainstream media?

[BradMiller52]

Thats strange KBlaze, you care a lot what the 50 greatest Player Voters say, however, you don't care about the people that say KJ is great.

Strange...

Caring about some, yet not caring about others....strange...


It's not a sign you won the argument, you guys were just more persistent.

[GMATCallahan]

Not really. I dont even think the top 50 was exactly accurate and ive said already id take him over a few guys on the list(Pistol Pete and Cousy for examples). I explained the top 50 list mention already. Just went to show that even if a select number of guys choose to rank KJ very high it either wasnt enough of them to matter in voting or those who said it then had changed their minds by the time they voted(a few guys he mentioned were on the voting panel).

Nobody has ever seen me say the top 50 list was 100% accurate. However....nobody on the list off the top of my head just pales in comparison to Kevin Johnson unless youre the "Everyone in the 50s sucked" type. Well actually I think Cousy is far below KJ but...thats a whole other discussion.

And I'm not saying that they paled in comparison next to K.J., either, but don't you realize that there's room for differing opinions? Don't you realize that the top-fifty list was a promotional venture, not a scholarly study? How do you explain Shaq there after just four years in the NBA?

And doesn't your point about Cousy prove my point about making objective judgments rather than just following the conventional mythology? Why is it that you make an exception for Cousy but no one else? Couldn't that pattern hold up elsewhere, not with everyone or even the majority but quite a few others?

[GMATCallahan]

I remember that thread, I did it about 2-3 months or so ago.


KJ's best seasons (stat wise anyway) were 88-89 and 89-90, so those I considered 1980's seasons. GP's best seaons' were probally in the early part of this decade (stat wise). Looking back at it now, it's a tough choice to make as to who had the best career in the 90's out of the two. GP has way more awards and what not like All-Star games/All-NBA Games/All-D teams .

'89-'90 is considered the "1990 season," which means the nineties. Anyway, K.J.'s best statistical season might have actually been '91, when he shot a career-high .516 from the field and averaged a career-high 2.1 steals, in addition to 22.2 points (his second-highest scoring average) and 10.1 assists. That year, K.J. became the only player in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, and 2.0 steals in one season.

[GMATCallahan]

And again, Kblaze, as I noted, I actually agreed with most and possibly all of those guys that you listed who you would place above K.J.! In many ways, we're on the same page, and yet you chose to censure me just because I casually stated that I'd start considering K.J. in the twenties-range.

[L.Kizzle]

'89-'90 is considered the "1990 season," which means the nineties. Anyway, K.J.'s best statistical season might have actually been '91, when he shot a career-high .516 from the field and averaged a career-high 2.1 steals, in addition to 22.2 points (his second-highest scoring average) and 10.1 assists. That year, K.J. became the only player in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, and 2.0 steals in one season.
LOL, sure is.

[Kblaze8855]

On the one hand, you cite MVP awards and top-fifty lists that are determined by writers like Michael Wilbon, but then you censure those same writers when they produce judgments that you don't care for. You can't have it both ways, to cling to journalistic observations when they match your tastes but to deride them when they contradict your deductive notions.

For one thing....a large group of people are almost always more likely to come closer to the widespread opinion than a single person writing an article. One person might call Webber better than Duncan or KJ better than Isiah. An entire fanbase is almost sure not to. If the discussion is about where most people had these guys put the more people asked the more accurate the answer. And I dont think you would disagree that if the entire basketball world were asked at the time.....Magic and Isiah are ognna be over KJ.

Secondly...most of the top 50 voters were players and coaches. About 37 of the 50 voters.



That was my point, to show you that they break both ways and also to reveal that people back then did consider K.J. a rival of Magic/Thomas/Stockton, and not just Hardaway/Mullin. But most of all, the statistical evidence supports many of those observations.

"People back then" doesnt mean "most people back then". There are people in every era that have unusual opinions. There are people who would put Arenas on the level of Kobe and Lebron right now. And in the future one could honestly say "People believed Arenas was as good as Kobe." That doesnt make it the norm nor does it mean its really being honest to act like a lot of people thought it.

When it comes right down to it...you look hard enough....someone thinks just about everything.


And again, Kblaze, as I noted, I actually agreed with most and possibly all of those guys that you listed who you would place above K.J.! In many ways, we're on the same page, and yet you chose to censure me just because I casually stated that I'd start considering K.J. in the twenties-range.

"Censure" you? I also saw you mentioned I "went nuts". Which kinda amuses me. I suppose you would have to be around me longer than you have to see how I am. Im almost never as outraged as my "matter of fact" tone might suggest. Im just a confrontational bastard when I even sorta disagree about something. But I can still say KJ being argued in the 20s is among the most "out there" things ive ever read. Im not as concerned about you thinking itas my tone might suggest. But I do find it bordering on insanity.

You caught me like 2 years too late for this. Used to have these looooong drawn out things but I just dont have it in me anymore. I expected to if anything need to defend KJ. I'll read whatever it is you have to say I just dont feel like writing another few thousand words on the matter right now.

[GMATCallahan]

For one thing....a large group of people are almost always more likely to come closer to the widespread opinion than a single person writing an article. One person might call Webber better than Duncan or KJ better than Isiah. An entire fanbase is almost sure not to. If the discussion is about where most people had these guys put the more people asked the more accurate the answer. And I dont think you would disagree that if the entire basketball world were asked at the time.....Magic and Isiah are ognna be over KJ.

Secondly...most of the top 50 voters were players and coaches. About 37 of the 50 voters.




"People back then" doesnt mean "most people back then". There are people in every era that have unusual opinions. There are people who would put Arenas on the level of Kobe and Lebron right now. And in the future one could honestly say "People believed Arenas was as good as Kobe." That doesnt make it the norm nor does it mean its really being honest to act like a lot of people thought it.

When it comes right down to it...you look hard enough....someone thinks just about everything.

You caught me like 2 years too late for this. Used to have these looooong drawn out things but I just dont have it in me anymore. I expected to if anything need to defend KJ. I'll read whatever it is you have to say I just dont feel like writing another few thousand words on the matter right now.

I quoted more than one writer. Instead, I noted two of them, Michael Wilbon and Randy Harvey, from two of the nation's most prominent newspapers, the Washington Post and the L.A. Times, respectively. I also quoted Byron Scott and Michael Cooper talking as if K.J. was a tougher matchup for them than Isiah Thomas in a long L.A. Times article from '89, earlier in the thread. I've also quoted the Sporting News pertaining to Magic and K.J., and here's another quote, this one from David Aldridge of the Washington Post:

Johnson: Lakers Out of Gear;Guard Says Playoff Mode Not Reached in Loss to Suns; [FINAL Edition]
David Aldridge. The Washington Post (pre-1997 Fulltext). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1990. pg. d.01

They can beat the Lakers in transition. And they have someone who can can out-Showtime Showtime: Kevin Johnson.

"Kevin Johnson is a unique player," Lakers Coach Pat Riley said. "We tried to do everything we could with him. He just rose to the occasion."

These were leading sportswriters in the nation's premier publications, not just a couple of crazies. But, hey, I agree that writers don't always make the correct assessment. However, they do tend to shape and reflect the common viewpoints of the day, and you can't support their perspective in the MVP balloting but ignore it elsewhere. After all, the writers vote for the All-NBA Teams, too. They last selected Isiah Thomas in 1987, whereas K.J. made one of the All-NBA Teams in five of six years from 1989-1994 (the last six seasons of Thomas' career). Plenty of writers were voting for K.J. and not Thomas, and with sound statistical reason (as I explained earlier).

As for players and coaches, they're subject to the same bias, political correctness, and possible ineptitude as anyone else. In 1999, American League managers gave Rafael Palmerio the Gold Glove for first base even though he spent nearly the enitre season as a designated hitter. There is no "safe," bias-free group at work here, but again, if you want to take the word of coaches, look at Pat Riley's quote about K.J. He'd seen plenty of star players and point guards in his NBA career as a player and coach, but he termed K.J. "unique." Also see Archibald's quote on K.J. from earlier in the thread, or how players, coaches, and executives from around the league said that he could penetrate like Magic Johnson, was as quick with the ball as John Stockton, and had a left-hand like Larry Bird (again, it's all in one of the articles that I posted). See my quote from Olajuwon on K.J., too. I've cited players, coaches, executives, writers, statistics, team success, head-to-head competition, everything. I've covered all the angles here.

Anyway, I still thank you for compiling the video.

[Kblaze8855]

With the exception of having a left hand like Larry Bird(Larry was able to play entire games left handed for fun...and did a few times in 86 and 87)...I dont disagree much with anything I see there.

[GMATCallahan]

With the exception of having a left hand like Larry Bird(Larry was able to play entire games left handed for fun...and did a few times in 86 and 87)...I dont disagree much with anything I see there.

And remember, that's the opinion of those players, coaches, and executives surveyed around the NBA, not my statement.

[GMATCallahan]

Put it this way, if KJ would have won a championship during his career, we would be talking about him being a hall of famer right now. If the Suns would have beat the bulls, he would have been elevated a few notches.

Late in his career, teammates felt that K.J. was a Hall of Famer. It hasn't turned out that way so far, but ...

Jason Kidd on K.J., March 1998:

When you have a future Hall-of-Famer in KJ, you have to believe in him. He kept everybody composed and took charge, and that's what we've been lacking.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1997&b=19980327&tm=PHO

Rex Chapman on K.J., February 1998:

In the fourth quarter when everything we did ran dry, we get a Hall-of-Famer off the bench. He was able to break down their defense at will when he wanted to.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1997&b=19980202&tm=PHI

[Glove_20]

I remember that thread, I did it about 2-3 months or so ago.


KJ's best seasons (stat wise anyway) were 88-89 and 89-90, so those I considered 1980's seasons. GP's best seaons' were probally in the early part of this decade (stat wise). Looking back at it now, it's a tough choice to make as to who had the best career in the 90's out of the two. GP has way more awards and what not like All-Star games/All-NBA Games/All-D teams .
1989-1990 is considred part of the 90s. Otherwise, 99-00 would need to be considered part of the 90s, and since seasons are said by the year when the Finals are played, 89-90 is part of the 90s. The Lakers are the 00 Champoins, so 99-00 is part of the 00s.

[Glove_20]

KBlaze, one thing I still haven't understood, and were you haven't made sense.



KJ wasnt voted top 50 all time in 1996. Im sure you agree nothing after 96 made his legacy. Even with all these coaches and players talking him up that you post(you dedicate yourself enough damn near every great player has similar quotes on him). Got a list of legends, long long time media members who covered 30+ years, coaches, and so on voting and KJ did not crack top 50. Yet 12 years later having done nothing to add to his legacy he jumps from below 50 to arguably #21? He might be underrated...but hes not that underrated.


This was your number one argument why KJ doesn't deserve Top 40. You argued some other points as well, but GMAT rebuted them and then you didn't argue them back.


And then later you argued more about why what "others" think, matter nothing to you. Hypocritical. I understand that there were more people on the Top 50, than a journal article, but how many time has the "Majority" been wrong? Not just basketball, but in real life. And are you saying you just believe what the "Majority" believes.

The same "coaches" and everything voted Larry Hughes to All-Defensive. The "Majority" did. Does that mean he deserved it?



And then you just kept on arguing how there is "No way" KJ can be that high, and just held that stance. Way too narrow minded. Just didn't believe it because "There is no way it could be true".

Well its not always like that, and its a very ignorant way of thinking. Just because a large majoriity doesn' think so, once you actually start throwing "real" arguments, and giving KJ a chance and a look, you'll come to a different conclusion.

KJ was just as good as Isiah, and better than Stockton at his peak (they played around the same time). I don't see how its "so" unbelievablle.



But yeah, bottom line, you're WAY too narrow minded.
"KJ can't be that high, he just can't, I am not going to even try reading"
You sound ignorant

[Kblaze8855]

Really how many times am I supposed to explain this? Pointing out that most wouldnt put him highly doesnt mean im saying the majority is always right. But if what im being given to support it is a few people saying he IS that high pointing out that most wouldnt say it is not only reasonable its pretty much the only thing that needs to be said. I am shown articles with a couple reporters and a couple players saying how great he is. The top 50 list is 37 legends and coaches and more than a dozen longtime media members. Point of mentioning them is the same as his point of showing me what Barkley, Riley, and whoever else said.

Neither opinion from either source proves it right. But he said it to show some people who believed one thing....I showed that a hell of a lot more(equally qialified) peoples combined opinions say otherwise.

Its the exact same thing just on a grander scale without the indidivual quote aspect.

Ive never said the top 50 list is actually the top 50 players. But when most of what I see to suggest KJ deserves to be ranked highly is a few peoples opinion showing 50 of the same kind of peoples combined opinion is relevant.

I dont think I could explain it clearer than that.

[Glove_20]

Really how many times am I supposed to explain this? Pointing out that most wouldnt put him highly doesnt mean im saying the majority is always right. But if what im being given to support it is a few people saying he IS that high pointing out that most wouldnt say it is not only reasonable its pretty much the only thing that needs to be said. I am shown articles with a couple reporters and a couple players saying how great he is. The top 50 list is 37 legends and coaches and more than a dozen longtime media members. Point of mentioning them is the same as his point of showing me what Barkley, Riley, and whoever else said.

Neither opinion from either source proves it right. But he said it to show some people who believed one thing....I showed that a hell of a lot more(equally qialified) peoples combined opinions say otherwise.

Its the exact same thing just on a grander scale without the indidivual quote aspect.

Ive never said the top 50 list is actually the top 50 players. But when most of what I see to suggest KJ deserves to be ranked highly is a few peoples opinion showing 50 of the same kind of peoples combined opinion is relevant.

I dont think I could explain it clearer than that.

Ok so, KJ not being one of the Top 50, or not being there, or not being here don't prove anything. So then why did you post it to start out with?

Thats the only reason GMAT posted all his articles, was because you made it sound like

1. He wasn't in the 50 greatest, so he isn't that great
2. He was compared to lesser players like Hardaway, not greats.


And thats why all the articles were posted.







So basically, him not making 50 greatest doesn't prove anything, and I guess to "you" the articles don't prove anything either. But it does show, the comparisoin is legit, its not something totally off the mark. It proves that it is "believable", not true or false, but has a shot of being true.



So really, you haven't shown anything to say he isn't Top 40, and I guess all the articles posted didn't do anything either.




Quick Question:


Jason Kidd or Kevin Johnson? Tell me career and prime/peak

[Kblaze8855]

Ok so, KJ not being one of the Top 50, or not being there, or not being here don't prove anything. So then why did you post it to start out with?

Didnt you just ask that?


Thats the only reason GMAT posted all his articles, was because you made it sound like

1. He wasn't in the 50 greatest, so he isn't that great
2. He was compared to lesser players like Hardaway, not greats.


And thats why all the articles were posted.


Articles were posted before I said anything to him and not all of them were in response to me even then.


So basically, him not making 50 greatest doesn't prove anything, and I guess to "you" the articles don't prove anything either. But it does show, the comparisoin is legit, its not something totally off the mark. It proves that it is "believable", not true or false, but has a shot of being true.

Not really. Someone believing something doesnt make it generally believable. You more than most will dismiss an opinion you dont like and go as far as to claim you can prove things are or arent true. You shouldnt be one speaking on the greatness of an open mind.




Quick Question:


Jason Kidd or Kevin Johnson? Tell me career and prime/peak

I dont consider the difference big enough to bother arguing over it. Tossup.

[Glove_20]

Didnt you just ask that?




Articles were posted before I said anything to him and not all of them were in response to me even then.



Not really. Someone believing something doesnt make it generally believable. You more than most will dismiss an opinion you dont like and go as far as to claim you can prove things are or arent true. You shouldnt be one speaking on the greatness of an open mind.






Come on, I have a open mind. I'll be honest, I went in with Payton over Reed. A little biased, but mostly just without thinking too much becaues Payton was already 3-4 spots behind Stockton. But quickly the arguments made me change my mind, becaues I realized thats what I would be sayiing...Though its still close. I kept on arguing, because the list wasn't about accuracy anymore, it was about who you like. But anyways, at least it shows I have an open mind.



I dont consider the difference big enough to bother arguing over it. Tossup.


EXACTLY what I wanted to hear. I remember you calling KJ NOT Top 50.


So either you consider Jason Kidd not Top 50, or your mind has changed because of this thread....


Your call....

[Kblaze8855]

Actually the problem is the divide between peak and career. Its hard to decide who ranks higher in those situation. There is the "Who would I rather have" question and the "Who had the btter career" question. On one its a tossup and on the other the answer is clear. Not being able to decide myself which id rather use at the moment it wouldnt be right to argue with someone who has the same opinion I might if asked on a different day.

There is no major difference between how good the two players were and ill leave it at that. should be enough anyway.

[Glove_20]

Actually the problem is the divide between peak and career. Its hard to decide who ranks higher in those situation. There is the "Who would I rather have" question and the "Who had the btter career" question. On one its a tossup and on the other the answer is clear. Not being able to decide myself which id rather use at the moment it wouldnt be right to argue with someone who has the same opinion I might if asked on a different day.

There is no major difference between how good the two players were and ill leave it at that. should be enough anyway.

Now your trying to back off from what you said...


Jason Kidd or Kevin Johnson? Tell me career and prime/peak

Thats what I said. I asked for career AND peak.

Your answer:


I dont consider the difference big enough to bother arguing over it. Tossup.


You called it a tie on both.


And now your changing because I questioned your previous calls on KJ
:oldlol:

Someone is back pedaling...



There is the "Who would I rather have" question and the "Who had the btter career" question. On one its a tossup and on the other the answer is clear.

I am trying to figure out which one is a tossup and which one is clear. Because I can't see it. Because even career, is mostly who was better, with slight additions to longevity. Accomplisments can really go into both, but yeah, they go mostly with career as well.



But anyways KBlaze, nice backpedal, I asked for Career AND Peak, and you called it a toss up. But now, you change up...:applause:

[Kblaze8855]

You really think I look that deeply into such a question? I told you its a tossup the first time you asked then explained why its a tossup. That isnt a backpedal...its just an explanation. I dont even know what id be backing off of if I were. Do you have some point that I missed and dont know that im supposed to be arguing with?

Oh I see. Since you said peak/career my one response is supposed to have covered both? I just figured you meant in general. Had you asked 2 seperate questions you would have been given two seperate answers. Didnt think it needed two answers at the time.

[Glove_20]

Oh I see. Since you said peak/career my one response is supposed to have covered both? I just figured you meant in general. Had you asked 2 seperate questions you would have been given two seperate answers. Didnt think it needed two answers at the time.

Finally you see.

When someone says


Jason Kidd or Kevin Johnson? Tell me career and prime/peak

And puts a "and" in there, that usually means 2 answers. And you gave it all in 1, so that probably meant that its tossup for both. But then later, after I questioned it, you started to change and seperate the 2 answers...Thats where backpedaling came


2nd, really, the main difference between prime/peak and career is there is a "slight" addition on how long the player played and longevity. Most of career also is how good the player was.

[Kblaze8855]

Im gonna go ahead and assume I know what I meant better than you do. I gave you an answer and when you seemed to not get it I explained it better. All there is to it.

[Glove_20]

Im gonna go ahead and assume I know what I meant better than you do. I gave you an answer and when you seemed to not get it I explained it better. All there is to it.
I didn't get it?

You said "Tossup". What is there not to get? But then later, you changed your answer and said ______ for career and peak is toss up.



Also I don't get one thing


There is the "Who would I rather have" question and the "Who had the btter career" question. On one its a tossup and on the other the answer is clear.

First of all I don't know who you think has the clear edge and on where.


Also, I don't get how career can be so clear while peak/prime toss up. (If thats what you meant) Because, when comparing careers, last time I checked, most of career is determined by how good the player was in his peak and prime. Kevin Johnson isn't no Bill Walton either, so unless you HEAVILY weight longevity and injuries, I don't see how a "clear" edge can come from a toss up at peak, especially with KJ. Who has missed only 1 playoff game in his career, and had 9 prime years.

[RidonKs]

Who has missed only 1 playoff game in his career, and had 9 prime years.
He also missed 25 games a year throughout that sparkling career. The guy is Marcus Camby lite.

Just sayin.

[JtotheIzzo]

Glove:

You do realize that Western Conference PGs in the early to mid nineties had inflated stats when compared with every other era in history?

You do realize that the way the game was played in that conference at that time (high scoring, minimal defense, no zones) made the stats somewhat larger than they would be in other eras?

I admire your permawood for Payton and KJ, but it is all *******-ism of the highest standard if you dont take that into account.

[Glove_20]

He also missed 25 games a year throughout that sparkling career. The guy is Marcus Camby lite.

Just sayin.
RidonK, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't interfere.


I am guessing you counted the last year 2000? Kevin Johnson only played in the end of the year because Jason Kidd hurt his ankle and had to sit out some games in the playoffs. So Kevin Johnson, comes OUT OF RETIREMENT, to play a couple of games in the end of the season, and play for Kidd in the playoffs at the end. Though he didn't make much of a difference, they got out of the 1st round with Kidd only playing 1 game in the 1st round series. And that was the only time Kidd got out of the first round in the West as well. (The other team's star player was also out)


I doubt you were old enough to remember all of that so you added 2000 as part of KJ's career, but he didn't even get injured that year, and came out of retirement just to help give his team a boost.

[L.Kizzle]

What makes KJ so much more underrated then another Phoenix great Paul Westphal?

[RidonKs]

Sure, 21 games per year. Which ever way you slice it, or try to avoid the issue by saying 'he never missed a playoff game', he was still injury prone. Very much so as a matter of fact. Broke the 80 game barriar once in his career, and only played 70+ games 33% of his career.

I'm not trying to 'interfere', I'm just making a point. A point that you don't really have to have seen Kevin Johnson play a lot to make. He was injury prone. That's a major career detriment.

Once again, just sayin.

But sure, feel free to continue to talk down to me as if I'm an infant. As long as it produces positive effects for youself, I see no reason for you to stop.

[Glove_20]

What makes KJ so much more underrated then another Phoenix great Paul Westphal?
Whose underrating Westphal? He was never that good. I mean he was a great scorer and a solid passer, but how many of those are in the league today? Pierce, McGrady, Allen, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Vince, are all on his level or better...

[L.Kizzle]

Whose underrating Westphal? He was never that good. I mean he was a great scorer and a solid passer, but how many of those are in the league today? Pierce, McGrady, Allen, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Vince, are all on his level or better...
Bad question, alright here goes another try.


Some peoples are putting KJ between the 25 - 40 range of All-Time greats, so comparing him to some players that might fit around those rankings, why Kevin Johnson over an Alex English, a Hal Greer or a Dominoque Wilkins?

[Glove_20]

Sure, 21 games per year. Which ever way you slice it, or try to avoid the issue by saying 'he never missed a playoff game', he was still injury prone. Very much so as a matter of fact. Broke the 80 game barriar once in his career, and only played 70+ games 33% of his career.

I'm not trying to 'interfere', I'm just making a point. A point that you don't really have to have seen Kevin Johnson play a lot to make. He was injury prone. That's a major career detriment.

Once again, just sayin.

But sure, feel free to continue to talk down to me as if I'm an infant. As long as it produces positive effects for youself, I see no reason for you to stop.

:rollingeyes:

Once again, your off. People who can't do simple addition and division with a calculator or can't read deserve to be treated like infants.

He averaged a little more than 66 games per year.

Now I don't know where the mistake was, maybe in your addition, divison, or subtraction, or reading, but another stupid mistake. Two. Thats why I told you not to interfere, people like you can't do math with a calculator, and then come talk with facts. Or can't read.




Broke the 80 game barriar once in his career, and only played 70+ games 33% of his career.

It must've been a reading error.

He broke 80 twice, and he played 70+ games 55% of his career (not counting the last out of retirement season, and even counting that, its 50%, so your "WAY" off)




Maybe now you have learned your lesson, I mean, at least before you come, make sure you know what your talking about, or that you did simple math with a calculator right. Or that you "read" right....

[Glove_20]

Bad question, alright here goes another try.


Some peoples are putting KJ between the 25 - 40 range of All-Time greats, so comparing him to some players that might fit around those rankings, why Kevin Johnson over an Alex English, a Hal Greer or a Dominoque Wilkins?

Come on...


How can you even argue Greer over a great like KJ?

Even in scoring, I'd take Kevin Johnson. Greer put like 22/45% in his prime, vs. KJ, 21/50% in his prime. Passing, no comments....


You get the point? Greer isn't even close to Kevin Johnson.

[GOBB]

Kblaze came, he saw, he conquered! :banana:

[Glove_20]

Kblaze came, he saw, he conquered! :banana:
Saw what? Conquered what?

Right now he is afraid to say Kidd over Kevin Johnson career or peak/prime (which I've asked him about 5 times and he hasn't said Kidd over KJ directly, because he knows he will be proved wrong)



And ask KBlaze if he's made ANY argument against KJ being really good besides....


"He didn't get voted into Top 50"

An opinion of others, and GMAT responded with opinion of others as well.
And then KBlaze just said, "I don't believe in other opinions and the Top 50 list of opinion either"


And the other one, lol.

"KJ no way is that great" and he said that in 4 or 5 forms...:oldlol:





Bottom line, no real argument,


But don't worry, I'll start a Kidd vs. KJ thread soon....

[L.Kizzle]

Come on...


How can you even argue Greer over a great like KJ?

Even in scoring, I'd take Kevin Johnson. Greer put like 22/45% in his prime, vs. KJ, 21/50% in his prime. Passing, no comments....


You get the point? Greer isn't even close to Kevin Johnson.
Kevin Johnson is just on a whole 'nother level then a top 50 Hall of Famer that was a 10 time All-Star and made 7 straight All-NBA 2nd teams?

[Glove_20]

Kevin Johnson is just on a whole 'nother level then a top 50 Hall of Famer that was a 10 time All-Star and made 7 straight All-NBA 2nd teams?
Just tell me what he was better in. You think he was a better scorer? 21/50% >>> 22/45%.

And honestly, the edge in passing/playmaking is so great, that nothing can make it up.

[L.Kizzle]

Just tell me what he was better in. You think he was a better scorer? 21/50% >>> 22/45%.

And honestly, the edge in passing/playmaking is so great, that nothing can make it up.
KJ drove to the hoop much more then not only Hal but probally any guard during the 1960's. Hal Greer was a great jump shooter and probally most of his points were on jump shots.


KJ was a better palaymaker, because he was the point guard, Hal was a combo shooting guard/small foward like Sam Jones. His career high in assist is over 5 assist per. He was top ten in assist 3 times during his career's wich probally means he was a good passer.


He has a more accomplishments then KJ, 7 All-NBA 2nd teams to KJ's 4 and Ten All-Star games compared to his 3.


He was considered the 3rd best gurd of his era behind Oscar and West.

[Glove_20]

KJ drove to the hoop much more then not only Hal but probally any guard during the 1960's. Hal Greer was a great jump shooter and probally most of his points were on jump shots.


KJ was a better palaymaker, because he was the point guard, Hal was a combo shooting guard/small foward like Sam Jones. His career high in assist is over 5 assist per. He was top ten in assist 3 times during his career's wich probally means he was a good passer.


He has a more accomplishments then KJ, 7 All-NBA 2nd teams to KJ's 4 and Ten All-Star games compared to his 3.


He was considered the 3rd best gurd of his era behind Oscar and West.

Well its not just that KJ drove in a lot, it was also that he was very good at driving in. Great penetrator and very quick and fast. He was better than Greer was or could be.

KJ also had a deadly mid-range jumper. Right there with Greer's.


But anyways, sure Greer has the longevity factor over Kevin Johnson, but thats really as far as its going to get.



And who cares if KJ drove in a lot? He was good at it so he did. That doesn't make him any less of a scorer. He was still a better scorer than Greer.


And yeah KJ was a PG, but the passing/playmaking edge stays for KJ.


And really, you still haven't shown one major area of their game where Greer was better. KJ obviously was the better player.



As for the All-NBA Teams, would Greer have made them if Jordan, Magic, Stockton, Drexler, Hardaway were all his rivals to make the All-NBA 2nd? And either way, KJ was underrated.







Greer has no advantage over Kevin Johnson besides longevity. Kevin Johnson was "easily" the better player.

[L.Kizzle]

Well its not just that KJ drove in a lot, it was also that he was very good at driving in. Great penetrator and very quick and fast. He was better than Greer was or could be.

KJ also had a deadly mid-range jumper. Right there with Greer's.


But anyways, sure Greer has the longevity factor over Kevin Johnson, but thats really as far as its going to get.



And who cares if KJ drove in a lot? He was good at it so he did. That doesn't make him any less of a scorer. He was still a better scorer than Greer.


And yeah KJ was a PG, but the passing/playmaking edge stays for KJ.


And really, you still haven't shown one major area of their game where Greer was better. KJ obviously was the better player.



As for the All-NBA Teams, would Greer have made them if Jordan, Magic, Stockton, Drexler, Hardaway were all his rivals to make the All-NBA 2nd? And either way, KJ was underrated.







Greer has no advantage over Kevin Johnson besides longevity. Kevin Johnson was "easily" the better player.
I'm not trying to take anything from KJ by saying he went to the basket more I wasjust stating that how his FG % was really high (like Tony Parker). I was saying that most guards back in the 60's didn't go to the hoop a lot a relied on their jump shot, witch Hal Greer had one of the best in the league.



One of Greer's strong points was his jump shot. His favorite spot to hit from was inside the top of the key. His one-time coach, Alex Hannum, said Greer could sink that shot about 70 percent of the time and encouraged him to take it whenever he had the opportunity. "Hal's quickness enables him to free himself for the moment of daylight that he needs," Hannum said. "He's so good on his jumper that it startles you when he misses."


Hal was a better rebounder then Kev.


I wouldn't call Jordan and Magic KJ's rivals to makew the All-NBA second team and Hal hade some comp for 2nd place in Dave Bing and Peal Monre among others.

[Glove_20]

I'm not trying to take anything from KJ by saying he went to the basket more I wasjust stating that how his FG % was really high (like Tony Parker). I was saying that most guards back in the 60's didn't go to the hoop a lot a relied on their jump shot, witch Hal Greer had one of the best in the league.





Hal was a better rebounder then Kev.


I wouldn't call Jordan and Magic KJ's rivals to makew the All-NBA second team and Hal hade some comp for 2nd place in Dave Bing and Peal Monre among others.


1. Yeah and whats wrong with talking it to the hoop to get a high FG%. That still makes you a better scorer...I'd rather have a player that takes it to the hoop and puts the same amount of points on a higher FG% than low FG% with same points becaue of jump shot...

Bottom line, takiing it to the hoop, and getting a better FG%, is better and more effective than what Greer has done on the scoring end, and the numbers prove it.



2. I think you haven't mentioned it yet, or acknowledged it, but Kevin Johnson also is an excellent shooter. Not only did you have to stop him from penetrating and creating offense, you also had to watch out for his mid-range jumper.

Here are some quotes GMAT posted....

"The fact that he can shoot and drive presents a problem, You can't play him just one way. You can't say, `I'll play him back and make him shoot the jumper,' because that's what he likes to do. You've got to get up on him and play him as tough as possible."

-Byron Scott



Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter.

-Sports Article (NY Times) in 1989


Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter

-Same article (NY Times) in 1989





Bottom line, not only was he really quick, he could also shoot that mid-range jumper.

He was a better scorer than Hal Greer.




2. Ok Hal Greer was a better rebounder because of his size. And KJ was 100 times the passer. It doesn't matter if he is a PG, PGs are usually higher ranked because of that. He creates the whole offense for his team. Can't say the same for Greer. KJ not only scores very well, but he also sets up his teams. Greer only does the first mostly.


With the only advantage being reboudngin, I don't see how it is close.



3. Lastly, nice try, Greer was in the 60s. Bing and Monroe were in the 70s. They weren't really competetion for Greer for the All-NBA Teams. Maybe 1 year where they crossed, and "maybe" 1 year.

KJ routinly had to go against Stockton, Drexler, Hardaway, Price.


But seriously, a player that creates the offense and scores for it as well as KJ, is better than Greer.

[L.Kizzle]

1. Yeah and whats wrong with talking it to the hoop to get a high FG%. That still makes you a better scorer...I'd rather have a player that takes it to the hoop and puts the same amount of points on a higher FG% than low FG% with same points becaue of jump shot...

Bottom line, takiing it to the hoop, and getting a better FG%, is better and more effective than what Greer has done on the scoring end, and the numbers prove it.



2. I think you haven't mentioned it yet, or acknowledged it, but Kevin Johnson also is an excellent shooter. Not only did you have to stop him from penetrating and creating offense, you also had to watch out for his mid-range jumper.

Here are some quotes GMAT posted....

"The fact that he can shoot and drive presents a problem, You can't play him just one way. You can't say, `I'll play him back and make him shoot the jumper,' because that's what he likes to do. You've got to get up on him and play him as tough as possible."

-Byron Scott



Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter.

-Sports Article (NY Times) in 1989


Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter

-Same article (NY Times) in 1989





Bottom line, not only was he really quick, he could also shoot that mid-range jumper.

He was a better scorer than Hal Greer.




2. Ok Hal Greer was a better rebounder because of his size. And KJ was 100 times the passer. It doesn't matter if he is a PG, PGs are usually higher ranked because of that. He creates the whole offense for his team. Can't say the same for Greer. KJ not only scores very well, but he also sets up his teams. Greer only does the first mostly.


With the only advantage being reboudngin, I don't see how it is close.



3. Lastly, nice try, Greer was in the 60s. Bing and Monroe were in the 70s. They weren't really competetion for Greer for the All-NBA Teams. Maybe 1 year where they crossed, and "maybe" 1 year.

KJ routinly had to go against Stockton, Drexler, Hardaway, Price.


But seriously, a player that creates the offense and scores for it as well as KJ, is better than Greer.
There is nothing wrong at all with taking it too the hoop, but I' was sayng Greer didn't take it to the hoop as most guards in bis era didn't tke the ball to the rack. That's like saying Ray Allen was a better three point shooter then Pistol Pete, well Pete didn't take 3's because they didn't have the line and Hal didn't take it to the basket because guards then relied on their jumper more. Also, I know how good a jump shooter KJ was, I was a Rockets fan in the mid-90's.


Hal was only 6'2 to KJ's 6'1 so the height isn't really that big of a difference.


Also Greer actually set up his team really good, just because his's assist numbers aren't high doesn't mean he was a bad playmaker. Also assist numbers weren't that high in the 1960's as they were in the early 90's. I just picked a random year in the 60's; Jerry West was 3rd in assist in 1965 with 6.3 assist per game. He finished 7th, 8th and 10th in assist for 3 seasons (good for a shooting guard/small foward) back then.

[Glove_20]

There is nothing wrong at all with taking it too the hoop, but I' was sayng Greer didn't take it to the hoop as most guards in bis era didn't tke the ball to the rack. That's like saying Ray Allen was a better three point shooter then Pistol Pete, well Pete didn't take 3's because they didn't have the line and Hal didn't take it to the basket because guards then relied on their jumper more. Also, I know how good a jump shooter KJ was, I was a Rockets fan in the mid-90's.


Hal was only 6'2 to KJ's 6'1 so the height isn't really that big of a difference.


Also Greer actually set up his team really good, just because his's assist numbers aren't high doesn't mean he was a bad playmaker. Also assist numbers weren't that high in the 1960's as they were in the early 90's. I just picked a random year in the 60's; Jerry West was 3rd in assist in 1965 with 6.3 assist per game. He finished 7th, 8th and 10th in assist for 3 seasons (good for a shooting guard/small foward) back then.


1. I mean even when he did take it in, his driving game wasn't nearly as good as KJ's. And you look at players like Tiny Archibald, they took it in quite a bit. And Archibald himself said KJ was quicker and a better shooter.

Greer was one of those players who took it in less than the average player even back then. He's like the Rip Hamilton of today. He stayed at jump shooting vs. driving more than the average player even bac kthen. It also explains his lack of injuries. And once again, KJ was a good jump shooter too.


Anyways, even if you make Greer's %, a little higher, he still isn't as good of a scorer as KJ. But Greer would be like Rip Hamilton today, he'd still shoot a lot of jumpers.




2. Although Greer is only a inch taller,

A. The pace was faster back then
B. His teammates and the whole league was shorter, so making him taller compared to the rest of the league vs. KJ


3. And come on, KJ has finished Top 3 in assists 4 times, and has put up 10+ apg 4 years in a row at one time.



KJ has "proven" to improve teammates.
Bring out the best of his teammates.

Things that "All-Time" greats do. He has been the captain and catalyst of the top offenses of his generation. And they were mostly that good because of him.

Its like the Steve Nash affect, KJ had it too.







We are really comparing Greer (All-Star Caliber player) to a KJ (Superstar)


There are so many things Kevin Johnson does that Greer can't.

Its like comparing Rip Hamilton to Steve Nash today.
KJ is a better scorer than Nash, and Greer is more all-around.

But you get what I am saying, why would you take Nash over Rip?

Because he gets the offense going, is an excellent passer, influences the team greatly, and improves teammates.

Same is the case with KJ, I understand Greer is a better playmaker than Rip, but KJ is a better scorer than Nash, so that cancels out.



KJ really is on another level or 2 higher than Greer.

[L.Kizzle]

I don't think Rip and Hal is a good comparison.

Also while reading up on Hal, I found this:



But in his first season Greer already showed the skills that would eventually make him a star: a deadly jump shot, quick penetrations to the basket, and tenacious defense. He came off the bench for 11.1 ppgin 1958-59, shooting .454 from the field and .778 from the line. His field-goal percentage was the fourth-highest mark in the NBA that year.
Goin' by this, he apparently he was one of the top FG% shooters of his era. He was top 10 three times, (more then KJ as he was never top 10 period).


It also seems he penetrated to the basket more then we thought he did. That should erase the Hamilton comparisons. It does talk about his deadly jump shot (maybe were the Rip comparison comes from).


It also states he was a tenacious defender.

[Glove_20]

I don't think Rip and Hal is a good comparison.

Also while reading up on Hal, I found this:



Goin' by this, he apparently he was one of the top FG% shooters of his era. He was top 10 three times, (more then KJ as he was never top 10 period).


It also seems he penetrated to the basket more then we thought he did. That should erase the Hamilton comparisons. It does talk about his deadly jump shot (maybe were the Rip comparison comes from).


It also states he was a tenacious defender.

You know, I was thinking with his FT attempts so high, he had to go in quite some...


Well back then Centers shot 40%, and Centers and Guards shot around the same. Today, you know that isn't true so its tough for a guard to finish high.


And starting in the 60s, when Big Men even became more important with guys like Chamberlain and Russell dominating, Greer never finished high in the FG% category.


But either way, even if you adjust Greer's FG% and make it a little higher, I would still take Kevin Johnson's scoring ability. Becaue he really was "unstoppable" at his Peak. If you guarded him tight, he would go right by you because he was so quick. If you gave him room, he would shoot the jumper on you. And in the playoffs he really showed how good he really was.
Scoring multiple 40pt games. And he still has the FG% advantage, which I think is enough to give him the overall edge, along with his "ability" which you had to see in his peak. But if you want, we can call scoring even.


But passing/playmaking is the biggest edge for Kevin Johnson. Magic, Stockton, and Cousy are the only passers/playmakers I can say are above KJ. Players like Nash are on par in terms of passing/playmaking with Kevin Johnson. All his teammates had career numbers while playing with him, and he has improved all of them. Not only that, the offense fails without him, and rises with him. These things are only what All-Time greats are supposed to do.

As for defense, Greer might've been solid there too, he was an All-Arounder, but KJ was also a solid to good defender. Not a lot of size, but was very quick.



The overall advantage still goes to Kevin Johnson. He was being compared to Magic Johnson by some in his Peak, and was considered better than Isiah Thomas. He also outperformed John Stockton routinely in his Peak, while Stockton was also in his peak. As you can see, KJ was "up" there. Greer, I don't think he was ever close to the Big O or West.



KJ was just a far too superior passer/playmaker vs. Greer. His teams had a high number of success and so did his teammates when they played with KJ. That really seperates them.

[L.Kizzle]

I'd still have to say Greer was the better scorer. He was top 10 in points 8 times compared to KJ's zero and finished top 5 one season with over 24.


Greer also made his teammates better as he played a major role in the 67 76ers team. KJ was the better playmaker though.


Also Hal Greer won more then KJ did. His teams made the Eastern conference finals 5 times (losing to Boston all 5) and won the title in 67. He made the playoffs all but his last two seasons when he wasn't an important factor.

[Glove_20]

I'd still have to say Greer was the better scorer. He was top 10 in points 8 times compared to KJ's zero and finished top 5 one season with over 24.


Greer also made his teammates better as he played a major role in the 67 76ers team. KJ was the better playmaker though.


Also Hal Greer won more then KJ did. His teams made the Eastern conference finals 5 times (losing to Boston all 5) and won the title in 67. He made the playoffs all but his last two seasons when he wasn't an important factor.

Well then again, who was Greer's great competetion besides Oscar and West. He played in a weaker era. Sam Jones was the 4th best perimeter player of that era.

KJ played in maybe the toughest era, with Magic and Jordan both at their best. And Stockton, Drexler, Wilkins, Mullins, Hardaway, and many more great perimeter players back then.
And once again, even though Greer scored more, KJ still had higher %s.



How did Greer make his teammates better? KJ sure did.


Take 1 example, Tom Chambers:

1988: 44.8% 20.4ppg
Joins KJ
1989: 47.1% 25.7ppg
1990: 50.1% 27.2ppg


As you can see, his numbers went right up with KJ.

This is even a quote from Tom Chambers:

In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999



Also another example is Charles Barkley. When did Barkley win his MVP? When did he have his best season? Right when he played with Kevin Johnson. Kevin Johnson "really" improved his teammates. Its becaue he was a real leader. Something that only the greats are supposed to do. Greer did NOT improve his teammates on the level of Kevin Johnson.



KJ's 4 year run was one of the best in history. From 1989-1992, K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, a .500 field goal percentage. How many in history have put those kind of numbers in NBA History? Magic Johnson is probably the only one EVER to do that. Oscar comes close. You listening, Magic, and Oscar, those are the players to do what KJ did. How many players have put 20/10 3 years in a row? Isiah Thomas and Oscar Roberstson are the only ones. How many players have put up 20/10/50% seasons, Magic and KJ are the only ones, and they both did it twice, with KJ missing a 3rd time by .001%.

You realize, that for a PG, scoring, and passing are the 2 most important categories. For normal players, its probably scoring and defense, but for a PG its scoring/passing. KJ and Magic are the only 2 combine both at a high efficient level of 20/10/50%.

I can name you countless amount of players who have put Greer type numbers. McGrady, Pierce, Wilkins, Drexler, Kobe, English, and more. Many have. While, for KJ, only players like Magic have put his numbers up.

And its just not the 4 year peak, you can beyond and look at the 9 years of KJ's prime. Putting up near 20/10/50% there as well. Only Magic, and Oscar are close to that mark over a 9 year period. Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson are the only ones. They are the only other 2 to combine scoring efficiently and well with excellent passing.



Really, Greer was never on the level of Kevin Johnson. And I have shown why. The things Kevin Johnson did, only players like Magic and Oscar can match up to. The things Greer did, MANY players can match up to.

Not only that, KJ improved teammates, and ran offenses. He, as the number one player on his team, defeeated Magic, and took his team to 2 straight WCF in a tougher Era.

[L.Kizzle]

Well then again, who was Greer's great competetion besides Oscar and West. He played in a weaker era. Sam Jones was the 4th best perimeter player of that era.

KJ played in maybe the toughest era, with Magic and Jordan both at their best. And Stockton, Drexler, Wilkins, Mullins, Hardaway, and many more great perimeter players back then.
And once again, even though Greer scored more, KJ still had higher %s.



How did Greer make his teammates better? KJ sure did.


Take 1 example, Tom Chambers:

1988: 44.8% 20.4ppg
Joins KJ
1989: 47.1% 25.7ppg
1990: 50.1% 27.2ppg


As you can see, his numbers went right up with KJ.

This is even a quote from Tom Chambers:

In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999



Also another example is Charles Barkley. When did Barkley win his MVP? When did he have his best season? Right when he played with Kevin Johnson. Kevin Johnson "really" improved his teammates. Its becaue he was a real leader. Something that only the greats are supposed to do. Greer did NOT improve his teammates on the level of Kevin Johnson.



KJ's 4 year run was one of the best in history. From 1989-1992, K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, a .500 field goal percentage. How many in history have put those kind of numbers in NBA History? Magic Johnson is probably the only one EVER to do that. Oscar comes close. You listening, Magic, and Oscar, those are the players to do what KJ did. How many players have put 20/10 3 years in a row? Isiah Thomas and Oscar Roberstson are the only ones. How many players have put up 20/10/50% seasons, Magic and KJ are the only ones, and they both did it twice, with KJ missing a 3rd time by .001%.

You realize, that for a PG, scoring, and passing are the 2 most important categories. For normal players, its probably scoring and defense, but for a PG its scoring/passing. KJ and Magic are the only 2 combine both at a high efficient level of 20/10/50%.

I can name you countless amount of players who have put Greer type numbers. McGrady, Pierce, Wilkins, Drexler, Kobe, English, and more. Many have. While, for KJ, only players like Magic have put his numbers up.

And its just not the 4 year peak, you can beyond and look at the 9 years of KJ's prime. Putting up near 20/10/50% there as well. Only Magic, and Oscar are close to that mark over a 9 year period. Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson are the only ones. They are the only other 2 to combine scoring efficiently and well with excellent passing.



Really, Greer was never on the level of Kevin Johnson. And I have shown why. The things Kevin Johnson did, only players like Magic and Oscar can match up to. The things Greer did, MANY players can match up to.

Not only that, KJ improved teammates, and ran offenses. He, as the number one player on his team, defeeated Magic, and took his team to 2 straight WCF in a tougher Era.
Oscar and West wasn't his only comp. He had Cousy for about 4 seasons (just as KJ had Magic), Elgin Baylor, Johnny Green, Dave Bing, Havlicek, Lenny Wilkens, Gail Goodrich, "Super" Lou Hudson, Cliff Hagan, Pearl Monroe, Clyde Frazer and others, (most are Hall of Famers)


Was it just KJ who made them better (Chambers and Chuck) or was it the team (Phoenix) they went to. It's not like Charles went to a bad franchise KJ was playing on they magically made the finals once he came.


So KJ being in elite company with Magic and Oscar make him a top 25-40 player ever? Walt Bellamy is one of only 3 players to average over 31 and 19 during a season, does that make him a top 20 player along side Elgin and Wilt. Alex English is the top scorer of the 80's but what does that mean, nothing really as he wasn't even a top 5 player of the decade.

[Glove_20]

Oscar and West wasn't his only comp. He had Cousy for about 4 seasons (just as KJ had Magic), Elgin Baylor, Johnny Green, Dave Bing, Havlicek, Lenny Wilkens, Gail Goodrich, "Super" Lou Hudson, Cliff Hagan, Pearl Monroe, Clyde Frazer and others, (most are Hall of Famers)


Was it just KJ who made them better (Chambers and Chuck) or was it the team (Phoenix) they went to. It's not like Charles went to a bad franchise KJ was playing on they magically made the finals once he came.


So KJ being in elite company with Magic and Oscar make him a top 25-40 player ever? Walt Bellamy is one of only 3 players to average over 31 and 19 during a season, does that make him a top 20 player along side Elgin and Wilt. Alex English is the top scorer of the 80's but what does that mean, nothing really as he wasn't even a top 5 player of the decade.

1. Like I said, not all those players played with Greer's prime. Frazier was in the 70s, same with Monroe, Greer was already done before them....I don't know why you keep mentioning them


2. Of course it was KJ that improved them. It wasn't a coincidence that right when they met KJ they all hit their peaks. And come on, they even SAID KJ made them the player they were. What more do you want?

3. Bellamny, how many years did he do that? 1 year, thats what I thought. KJ did it for a 9 year span, and only Magic and Oscar have met that statline. Not 1 year.

Not only that, it wasn't "any old" categories he did it in. Like I said, he did it with the most important categories for a PG. Scoring, and doing it efficiently, and passing. He met Magic and Oscar in the most important categories for a PG. And he met them for a 9 year Span, not just 1 year, how was Bellamy for 9 years?


To continue on, I thought this was KJ vs. Greer. Now its, "is this what makes KJ 25-40". At least your realizing, Greer was on a level less.



And to add more, not only was KJ able to match Magic and Oscar on the most important things for a PG, he was able to do other things that only legends and the very best are able to do. Improve teammates, have a strong offense, get many win seasons, and so on.


:applause:
He is trully underrated, and all great things he has done are forgotten. I mean, back in the day they did compare him to Magic Johnson, both players put similar stats, and both teams won around the same amount of games, KJ even knocked out Magic's team in 1990 I believe. He was better than Stockton in his peak, and Stockton was at his peak too, and now these days Stockton is considered better, and always was better. He was considered better than Isiah by a lot, at least ability/skillwise, but Isiah's titles always won the argument.

[Chalkmaze]

He was better than Stockton in his peak, and Stockton was at his peak too, and now these days Stockton is considered better, and always was better.

I though Stockton was as good at the time, and now...

It was arguable....

Kevin was more of a scorer, and neglected to get his team involved some of the time. Great player and all... Fantastic offensive game for a guard, while still being able to get guys involved, but sometimes he got into ballhog mode.

I think you are starting to over-rate him a bit.

[L.Kizzle]

1. Like I said, not all those players played with Greer's prime. Frazier was in the 70s, same with Monroe, Greer was already done before them....I don't know why you keep mentioning them


2. Of course it was KJ that improved them. It wasn't a coincidence that right when they met KJ they all hit their peaks. And come on, they even SAID KJ made them the player they were. What more do you want?

3. Bellamny, how many years did he do that? 1 year, thats what I thought. KJ did it for a 9 year span, and only Magic and Oscar have met that statline. Not 1 year.

Not only that, it wasn't "any old" categories he did it in. Like I said, he did it with the most important categories for a PG. Scoring, and doing it efficiently, and passing. He met Magic and Oscar in the most important categories for a PG. And he met them for a 9 year Span, not just 1 year, how was Bellamy for 9 years?


To continue on, I thought this was KJ vs. Greer. Now its, "is this what makes KJ 25-40". At least your realizing, Greer was on a level less.



And to add more, not only was KJ able to match Magic and Oscar on the most important things for a PG, he was able to do other things that only legends and the very best are able to do. Improve teammates, have a strong offense, get many win seasons, and so on.


:applause:
He is trully underrated, and all great things he has done are forgotten. I mean, back in the day they did compare him to Magic Johnson, both players put similar stats, and both teams won around the same amount of games, KJ even knocked out Magic's team in 1990 I believe. He was better than Stockton in his peak, and Stockton was at his peak too, and now these days Stockton is considered better, and always was better. He was considered better than Isiah by a lot, at least ability/skillwise, but Isiah's titles always won the argument.
Monroe and Frazier were both drafted oin 67 so they played in Greers peak/prime for about 3 seasons as Greer was making All-Star teams untuil 1970.


Never said KJ didn't have a role in improving.


Well Bellamy over a span of four season put up over 27 ppg, 17 boards and 51%FG, not many over four years have done that, just Chamberlain I believe. That shouldn't make Walt Bellamy any better then he was. Hell, if wwe look hard enough we could find many players having similar stats over a long period time compared to other greats, that doesn't mean they're on that greats level or right below.


I'm pretty sure a not so great legend like a Spencer Haywood or someone put up some stats that are comparable with a Bob Pettit, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon or something over a 5 year stretch but that doesn't mean that Spencer is on those players levels?


As I said many times, I'm with you on KJ being underrated but I think you are slightly overrating him.

[Glove_20]

I though Stockton was as good at the time, and now...
They were about even at their Peaks...However, KJ domianted Stockton head to head...Just like Payton dominated Stockton defensively, KJ dominated Stockton offensively....And thats why I'd give the edge to KJ, he always got the better of Stockton Head to HEad

[Glove_20]

Kevin was more of a scorer, and neglected to get his team involved some of the time. Great player and all... Fantastic offensive game for a guard, while still being able to get guys involved, but sometimes he got into ballhog mode.

I think you are starting to over-rate him a bit.

Kevin Johnson and ballhog? I think you're confusing him with Tim Hardaway or someone.

How was he selfish? First time I heard someone shooting the ball 50+% and giving out 10-12apg called selfish. Thats Magic type numbers, and your calling him selfish? His teammates improved, and his teams posted winning numbers every year, thats selfish?


Here are his Shots to Assist Ratio. So how many times he shoots vs. gives an assist.

K.J.: 1.36:1.00
Nash: 1.39:1.00
Kidd: 1.40:1.00

I don't think you can call KJ selfish based on this.

[Chalkmaze]

They were about even at their Peaks...However, KJ domianted Stockton head to head...Just like Payton dominated Stockton defensively, KJ dominated Stockton offensively....And thats why I'd give the edge to KJ, he always got the better of Stockton Head to HEad

Stockton was always better at getting the rest of the team more involved... not just measured in assists either... he would set things up... get people in position etc... So I don't know about that... scoring wise... yeah Johnson was better... making the rest of the team better... Stockton almost always won that battle.

[Glove_20]

Monroe and Frazier were both drafted oin 67 so they played in Greers peak/prime for about 3 seasons as Greer was making All-Star teams untuil 1970.


Never said KJ didn't have a role in improving.


Well Bellamy over a span of four season put up over 27 ppg, 17 boards and 51%FG, not many over four years have done that, just Chamberlain I believe. That shouldn't make Walt Bellamy any better then he was. Hell, if wwe look hard enough we could find many players having similar stats over a long period time compared to other greats, that doesn't mean they're on that greats level or right below.


I'm pretty sure a not so great legend like a Spencer Haywood or someone put up some stats that are comparable with a Bob Pettit, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon or something over a 5 year stretch but that doesn't mean that Spencer is on those players levels?


As I said many times, I'm with you on KJ being underrated but I think you are slightly overrating him.


1. Walt Bellamy?


A. First of all, he did it for 4 years, not 9 years. Magic is the only one who matches KJ's 4 years, and Oscar and Magic are the only ones who measure KJ's 9 years.

B. Part of the reason no one could measure Bellamy is becaue of the Era he played in. No Center or PF is going to put 17 rebounds in today's league, so its unfair from the start.

C. Bellamy did that without making it to the playoffs most of the years. Like I have said before, its easier to put up great stats on a bad team that can't even make playoffs. And its even more impressive if you can put up great stats on a team that actually wins. KJ and Magic did, Bellamy didn't.

D. Bob Pettit has done the same. Elgin Baylor has too. It also wasn't that hard for a Center to get that many rebounds in the 60s. It got tougher later on. Moses put on 30/15 over a some years, and that was in the late 70s to early 80s. That easily overrides Bellamy's performance. And you know there are a lot more who have done the same.


As you can see, those are 4 strong points to not look at Bellamy's performance too far.



2. Spencer Haywood has some of the same problems. He usually failed to make playoffs, and I can't tell you HOW many have put his statline throughout the years. And once again, 9 year span.

Those 4 points against Bellamy, can be made against Spencer.





However, against, KJ, he was the real deal so nothing can be said against him. You can try though. Remember, 9 years, playoffs every year, 20/10/50%, Oscar and Magic are the only ones in there. And not only that, we are talking about the most important stats for a PG. Scoring/Passing/Scoring efficiently. The most important characterists for a PG. Not just any old stats.
And Magic was the only one who compared with him on KJ's PEAK statline, not even Oscar




So yeah, Bellamy and Specner don't work...

[Chalkmaze]

Kevin Johnson and ballhog? I think you're confusing him with Tim Hardaway or someone.

How was he selfish? First time I heard someone shooting the ball 50+% and giving out 10-12apg called selfish. Thats Magic type numbers, and your calling him selfish? His teammates improved, and his teams posted winning numbers every year, thats selfish?


Here are his Shots to Assist Ratio. So how many times he shoots vs. gives an assist.

K.J.: 1.36:1.00
Nash: 1.39:1.00
Kidd: 1.40:1.00

I don't think you can call KJ selfish based on this.

I don't know how to explain what I saw... Perhaps the numbers would show that KJ was great at dishing assists the first 3 quarters and then had the ball 80% of the time in the fourth.. But I recall him holding the ball a lot, over-dribbling or something... I don't know how to describe it or make an argument for it. There's a formula out there somewhere that would explain it though.

I'm not calling him selfish exactly... But, when comparing him to Stockton (You neglected to show his ratio btw), he did look like a ballhog. I mean... that was more his game, and suited his style, but I also felt that Stockton would have got all of Johnson's teammates more involved and made them better. KJ didn't set screen's anywhere near as good as Stockton did, for example.

[L.Kizzle]

Spencer and Bellamy didn't work but Alex English will.:oldlol:


Alex English over a 8 year span averaged over 26 ppg/5.5 rebounds/4.5assist and shot around 50% from the field. Denver went to the playoffs every season during those 9 seasons. Larry Bird and Julius Erving are the only players to put up such numbers.


I think you know what I'm tryin' to say, a great all-time player like (Alex English) can put up similar numbers to Legends like (Doc and Bird) over a long period of time the same way an all-time great like (Kevin Johnson) can put up similar stats to (Magic and Oscar). Those numbers don't make Alex English any better then he was and shouldn't make Kevin Johnson any better then he was.


I told you if you look hard enough you could find a not so great legend (English) with similar stats to the best of the best (Julius and Bird).

[Glove_20]

I was gone, I am trying to decide to tackle which argument down first, I'll do the Stockton one first...

[Glove_20]

Stockton was always better at getting the rest of the team more involved... not just measured in assists either... he would set things up... get people in position etc... So I don't know about that... scoring wise... yeah Johnson was better... making the rest of the team better... Stockton almost always won that battle.

KJ was great at setting up his teammates as well...He would do it by dribble penetration, which attracted attention to him, and opened up his teammate...And of course, KJ made his teammates better as well...Here are their Head to Head matchups over a period of time, and the reason why I gave KJ the edge...



All meetings from 1989-1993



Kevin Johnson
4/11 19pts 12ast Win

John Stockton
5/13 12pts 11ast Loss



Kevin Johnson
5/12 12pts 6ast Loss

John Stockton
6/9 19pts 17ast Win



Kevin Johnson
8/12 32pts 7ast Win

John Stockton
8/16 23pts 16ast Loss




Kevin Johnson
12/21 34pts 14ast Win

John Stockton
8/10 20pts 16ast Loss



Kevin Johnson
6/17 29pts 13ast Win

John Stockton
7/16 18pts 21ast Loss


Kevin Johnson
7/16 37pts 8ast Win

John Stockton
3/12 8pts 11ast Loss



Kevin Johnson
12/18 29pts 10ast Win

John Stockton
4/9 16pts 12ast Loss



Kevin Johnson
7/22 28pts 4ast Loss

John Stockton
5/11 15pts 4ast Win




Kevin Johnson
11/21 30pts 7ast Loss

John Stockton Win
5/12 22pts 15ast



Kevin Johnson
13/21 37pts 20ast Win

John Stockton
12/16 28pts 10ast Loss




Kevin Johnson
16/29 44pts 10ast Win

John Stockton
5/6 14pts 12ast Loss



Kevin Johnson
8/16 28pts 18ast Loss

John Stockton
5/14 13pts 11ast Win



Kevin Johnson
10/19 32pts 14ast Win

John Stockton
5/16 14pts 18ast Loss



Kevin Johnson
4/11 10pts 14ast Loss

John Stockton
8/14 17pts 13ast Win



Kevin Johnson
10/19 29pts 9ast Win

John Stockton
7/13 16pts 7ast Loss



Kevin Johnson
9/15 26pts 3ast Win

John Stockton
3/5 6pts 9ast Loss










Totals:


Kevin Johnson
142/280 50.7% 28.5ppg 10.6apg 11-5


John Stockton
96/192 50.0% 16.3ppg 12.7apg 5-11



That is what "actually" happened between the two, not what we remember or anything.

As you can see, KJ dominated Stockton offensively. Putting up 28/11/50% shooting. Thats what I was talking about too. Stockton, was basically himself, but his FG% was actually lower than KJ's, which is not what you expect. The assist difference is only about 2.1apg as well, while the point total is around 12points. And even the win-loss column has huge edges.
Also look at some of the games for KJ, he had a 30/20 game, and also a 34/14 game.





Bottom line, at both of their peaks, I'd give KJ the edge, because they were close anyways, but Head to Head, KJ dominated Stockton on the offensive end.

[Glove_20]

Spencer and Bellamy didn't work but Alex English will.:oldlol:


Alex English over a 8 year span averaged over 26 ppg/5.5 rebounds/4.5assist and shot around 50% from the field. Denver went to the playoffs every season during those 9 seasons. Larry Bird and Julius Erving are the only players to put up such numbers.


I think you know what I'm tryin' to say, a great all-time player like (Alex English) can put up similar numbers to Legends like (Doc and Bird) over a long period of time the same way an all-time great like (Kevin Johnson) can put up similar stats to (Magic and Oscar). Those numbers don't make Alex English any better then he was and shouldn't make Kevin Johnson any better then he was.


I told you if you look hard enough you could find a not so great legend (English) with similar stats to the best of the best (Julius and Bird).

I think your still off.



1. First of all, interesting how you used "5.5" and "4.5" instead of straight up...



2. I am guessing the years you were talking about were 81-88

English's numbers:

26.9ppg
5.9rpg
4.6apg



And there are many players who have done that as long as the players you mentioned...


Larry Bird, Julius Erving, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Elgin Baylor, and Rick Barry.


So yeah, you were off on how many players have done that...10 others players beside Alex English


While with KJ, Oscar and Magic are the only 2. And MAGIC is the only who has exactly produced the 20/10/50% in peak, no one else. Oscar is right there too, because he produced similar. So really, its only MJ and KJ



3. Lastly, I just want to remind you. For PGs, passing is an important category. Scoring is too. SFs aren't like PGs where they have a category (passing) that they really have to produce well...So it would've been better if you used PGs only...or similar

Remember, I am talking about the most important categories, and this is PGs we are talking about, you realize how important passing/efficiency is to PGs vs. rebounds/assists to SFs.




But yeah, English doesn't come close either. There are 10 other players who have done EXACTLY what he has. Magic is the only one who has done EXACTLY what KJ has done, and Oscar has come close

[Chalkmaze]

KJ was great at setting up his teammates as well...He would do it by dribble penetration, which attracted attention to him, and opened up his teammate...And of course, KJ made his teammates better as well...Here are their Head to Head matchups over a period of time, and the reason why I gave KJ the edge...

As you can see, KJ dominated Stockton offensively. Putting up 28/11/50% shooting. Thats what I was talking about too. Stockton, was basically himself, but his FG% was actually lower than KJ's, which is not what you expect. The assist difference is only about 2.1apg as well, while the point total is around 12points. And even the win-loss column has huge edges.
Also look at some of the games for KJ, he had a 30/20 game, and also a 34/14 game.





Bottom line, at both of their peaks, I'd give KJ the edge, because they were close anyways, but Head to Head, KJ dominated Stockton on the offensive end.

What's this 89-93 bull?
You are being selective... why not compare KJ's whole career, at least up until 96-97??? Go ahead... let's see the truth. You show that KJ was better offensively, and the FG% was close enough to be a wash, Stockton dominated in Assists and steals, and like I said... John did more to help the player's around him besides assists.

You've helped prove that KJ was a bit of a ball hog, even though he had good efficiency... I wonder what percentage Stockton's team mates shot in comparison to KJ's also, because John would play the percentages as well as anyone ever has. So KJ might have shot 50% and John might have shot 50%, but KJ shoots 10 more shots a game at 50% where John might have chosen to get the ball to someone who could have thrown in inside to Malone, who's shooting 55%. Anyway, those are unexplained things that are noticed when you watch games versus look at stat sheets.

Johnson scored and did great and all... but he was always looking to score the whole game, and only when he didn't have a clear look did he pass it out. He held and dribbled the ball a lot, while looking to score, where John would be looking to run the offense. John was better at letting other people get involved, and it wasn't just measured in assists.

Now, I'm not knocking KJ exactly, not in the grand scheme of things... but when you say he dominated Stockton head to head, there are a lot of things not shown on the stat sheet that went on. Stockton's role was to get his team mates involved, to let them touch the ball and work it around, KJ was looking to score, and while his stats went up, a portion of his teammates stats went down some. Stockton also played a lot of help defense and things, and helped his team get buckets off of screens, got a lot of deflections that went to his team mates that didn't count as part of his steals etc.

I watched the games, and I remember people thinking John got smoked because KJ had 30 points or whatever, while John would have 15 points on the same night, but someone else on the team would usually make up the difference. KJ took more shots is what it boiled down to, John could have shot more and got more points, but he always felt it was important to get everyone involved. I don't know about you, but I hate to hustle my ass off, playing defense, and rebounding, and then have someone else hogging the ball all the time, I become a lot more interested in playing hard when I get to be involved offensively in some manner, and have guys setting picks for me, and it motivates me to be more involved on defense.

Different type players, and while I sometimes questioned KJ's scoring first mentality, he also used that threat to get his team mates shots, and you had to respect his speed, quickness, and shooting... He was a tough player indeed... But he was a shoot first type player, while Stockton was a pass first type player, and while KJ may have better scoring stats, Stockton had better stats in assists, steals, and getting his teammates involved, and even during KJ's prime, it was still a pretty even matchup in my eyes.

[Glove_20]

What's this 89-93 bull?
You are being selective... why not compare KJ's whole career, at least up until 96-97??? Go ahead... let's see the truth. You show that KJ was better offensively, and the FG% was close enough to be a wash, Stockton dominated in Assists and steals, and like I said... John did more to help the player's around him besides assists.

You've helped prove that KJ was a bit of a ball hog, even though he had good efficiency... I wonder what percentage Stockton's team mates shot in comparison to KJ's also, because John would play the percentages as well as anyone ever has. So KJ might have shot 50% and John might have shot 50%, but KJ shoots 10 more shots a game at 50% where John might have chosen to get the ball to someone who could have thrown in inside to Malone, who's shooting 55%. Anyway, those are unexplained things that are noticed when you watch games versus look at stat sheets.

Johnson scored and did great and all... but he was always looking to score the whole game, and only when he didn't have a clear look did he pass it out. He held and dribbled the ball a lot, while looking to score, where John would be looking to run the offense. John was better at letting other people get involved, and it wasn't just measured in assists.

Now, I'm not knocking KJ exactly, not in the grand scheme of things... but when you say he dominated Stockton head to head, there are a lot of things not shown on the stat sheet that went on. Stockton's role was to get his team mates involved, to let them touch the ball and work it around, KJ was looking to score, and while his stats went up, a portion of his teammates stats went down some. Stockton also played a lot of help defense and things, and helped his team get buckets off of screens, got a lot of deflections that went to his team mates that didn't count as part of his steals etc.

I watched the games, and I remember people thinking John got smoked because KJ had 30 points or whatever, but while John would have 15 points on the same night, but someone else on the team would usually make up the difference. KJ took more shots is what it boiled down to, John could have shot more and got more points, but he always felt it was important to get everyone involved. I don't know about you, but I hate to hustle my ass off, playing defense, and rebounding, and then have someone else hogging the ball all the time, I become a lot more interested in playing hard when I get to be involved offensively in some manner, and have guys setting picks for me, and it motivates me to be more involved on defense.

Different type players, and while I sometimes questioned KJ's scoring first mentality, he also used that threat to get his team mates shots, and you had to respect his speed, quickness, and shooting... He was a tough player indeed... But he was a shoot first type player, while Stockton was a pass first type player, and while KJ may have better scoring stats, Stockton had better stats in assists, steals, and getting his teammates involved, and it was pretty even in my eyes.


1. ALmost every PG is shoot-first compared to John Stockton, thats what you were saying on the post before this one right? As you saw, KJ's Shot to Assist ratio is lower than Nash and Kidd's, meaining he shot less per assist.

So compared to Nash, yeah he is shoot first, but compared to others like Nash and Kidd, he is right there with them, and even shot less compared to every assist.


2. 1989-1993 was their Peaks. I said I'd compare thier Peaks.


3, You said a lot about Stockton setting up his teammates and passing instead of shooting and actually helping his team more.

Well first of all, there is no way in hell Stockton would average 28 at 50% against any team or player over a 4 year period. If he shot that much, his FG% and assists would drop rapidly.

2nd, well, if Stockton was passing instead of shooting as much, why'd he only get 2 more assists? Is that all he helped? Just getting 2 more assists?

And if you still think Stockton's helping was better....

KJ: 11-5
Stockton: 5-11


That goes into the things "not shown" in the box score. The WIN and the LOSS column still says KJ's game brought in more wins than Stocktons.



And its not suprise, honestly, putting 28/11/50% against a player is DOMINATION. Seriously, 28/11, read that.





Summary:


I don't know how much Stockton "helped" other teammates, and how much all the "extra" things he did, because in the end, 5-11 was his record. While KJ's domination led to a 11-5 record.

And most of the games were before Barkley was even there, so that is even more impressive in KJ's part, beating the Jazz with both Malone and Stockton.






Head to Head Winner: Kevin Johnson....easily

[IceMan2]

Totals:


Kevin Johnson
142/280 50.7% 28.5ppg 10.6apg 11-5


John Stockton
96/192 50.0% 16.3ppg 12.7apg 5-11



KJ > John

29/11 are some crazy numbers. And he even has the wins with him. I don't care how much John Helped, but numbers and wins are with KJ

[L.Kizzle]

I think your still off.



1. First of all, interesting how you used "5.5" and "4.5" instead of straight up...



2. I am guessing the years you were talking about were 81-88

English's numbers:

26.9ppg
5.9rpg
4.6apg



And there are many players who have done that as long as the players you mentioned...


Larry Bird, Julius Erving, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Elgin Baylor, and Rick Barry.


So yeah, you were off on how many players have done that...10 others players beside Alex English


While with KJ, Oscar and Magic are the only 2. And MAGIC is the only who has exactly produced the 20/10/50% in peak, no one else. Oscar is right there too, because he produced similar. So really, its only MJ and KJ



3. Lastly, I just want to remind you. For PGs, passing is an important category. Scoring is too. SFs aren't like PGs where they have a category (passing) that they really have to produce well...So it would've been better if you used PGs only...or similar

Remember, I am talking about the most important categories, and this is PGs we are talking about, you realize how important passing/efficiency is to PGs vs. rebounds/assists to SFs.




But yeah, English doesn't come close either. There are 10 other players who have done EXACTLY what he has. Magic is the only one who has done EXACTLY what KJ has done, and Oscar has come close
I'm pretty sure all those players you named didn't put up those numbers shooting 50% (or damn near close to it) from the field. Only Wilt, Kareem, MJ, along with Doc and Bird I already named did that for an 8 year span. That actually put's him in even more exclusive company then just Doc and Bird.


-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
-Larry Bird
-Wilt Chamberlain
-Alex English
-Julius Erving
-Michael Jordan


Who doesn't belong in that select group or does Alex Englsih just shoot up the All-Time rankings because he was consistant over an 8 season span?

[Chalkmaze]

Phoenix won more because they had a more talented team, so it's hard to measure that when doing a head to head matchup.

1992-1993 teams

Phoenix

Charles Barkley
Tom Chambers
Danny Ainge
Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Cedric Ceballos
Mark West
Oliver Miller
Richard Dumas
(the rest don't matter)

Utah

Karl Malone
Jeff Malone
John Stockton
Tyrone Corbin
Jay Humphries
David Benoit
Mike Brown
Mark Eaton
(rest don't matter)

And I still think you need to show the stats up until 96-97... because they were still in their primes, and it's going to even the numbers more, like coin flip does if you flip it enough times.

[GMATCallahan]

Really how many times am I supposed to explain this? Pointing out that most wouldnt put him highly doesnt mean im saying the majority is always right. But if what im being given to support it is a few people saying he IS that high pointing out that most wouldnt say it is not only reasonable its pretty much the only thing that needs to be said. I am shown articles with a couple reporters and a couple players saying how great he is. The top 50 list is 37 legends and coaches and more than a dozen longtime media members. Point of mentioning them is the same as his point of showing me what Barkley, Riley, and whoever else said.

Neither opinion from either source proves it right. But he said it to show some people who believed one thing....I showed that a hell of a lot more(equally qialified) peoples combined opinions say otherwise.

Its the exact same thing just on a grander scale without the indidivual quote aspect.

Ive never said the top 50 list is actually the top 50 players. But when most of what I see to suggest KJ deserves to be ranked highly is a few peoples opinion showing 50 of the same kind of peoples combined opinion is relevant.

I dont think I could explain it clearer than that.

And that's just not true, not for the time period that I was referring to. Again, writers from across the country vote on the All-NBA Teams. Isiah Thomas last made one of those teams in 1987. In Thomas' last six seasons (1989-1994), during which time he played he played in three Eastern Conference Finals, played in two NBA Finals, won two NBA championships, and won an NBA Finals MVP, thus remaining a highly visible presence in the league, he did not make a single All-NBA Team. Kevin Johnson, conversely, made five All-NBA Teams during that time, including for All-NBA Second Teams. So obviously, the vast majority of basketball writers during that time believed that K.J. was more effective than Isiah Thomas, and I used a few quotations from prominent writers (or major players or coaches) in leadings publications to reflect that broader opinion.

Now of course, the writers are not always right, and K.J. proved underrated in many respects. For example, I believe that K.J. deserved a First Team guard slot over Latrell Sprewell in 1994. K.J. averaged 9.5 assists per game and shot .487 from the field and .819 from the free throw line (while averaging 20.0 points to lead all point guards that season), whereas Sprewell averaged 4.7 assists and shot .433 from the field and .774 from the free throw line (while averaging 21.0 points in sort of a "combination guard" role). And, sure enough, K.J. smoked Sprewell in the 1994 Western Conference First Round, averaging 26.7 points and 9.3 assists as the Suns swept the Warriors, 3-0 (Sprewell averaged 22.7 points and 7.0 assists, shooting .433 from the field). In that case, the regular season statistics didn't necessarily indicate that Sprewell was the superior guard, and the playoff matchup only affirmed the dubiety of the writers' selection.

But in the case of K.J. versus Thomas from 1989-1994, K.J. has the statistics on his side and it's frankly not even close. Over those six seasons combined, here are the respective averages, reflecting their mean season:

Kevin Johnson: 20.4 points, 10.5 assists, .498 field goal percentage, .837 free throw percentage (7.2 attempts), 3.4 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 3.5 turnovers, 2.96:1.00 assists-to-turnovers ratio, 36.9 minutes, 71.0 regular season games.

Isiah Thomas: 17.5 points, 8.3 assists, .438 field goal percentage, .766 free throw percentage, 3.3 rebounds, 1.5 steals, 2.27:1.00 assists-to-turnovers ratio, 35.8 minutes, 70.7 regular season games.

So in this particular case, the empirical evidence supports the writers' judgment and indicates that K.J. indeed played on Isiah Thomas' level (or actually a higher one) back then. And if you want popular affirmation of that indication, see the eight players that NBC selected for its original introduction video in '90-'91, its initial season of NBA coverage:

Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Isiah Thomas
David Robinson
Charles Barkley
Kevin Johnson
Karl Malone
Magic Johnson

You can see an example here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYLhDC1mvJM

Again, a television video shouldn't be the final story, but it confirms the quotations, the All-NBA Teams, and most importantly, the statistics. Kevin Johnson was indeed a rival of Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, and John Stockton back then (note that NBC did not bother to select Stockton for the video), and not "just" Tim Hardaway. And indeed, he was a top-ten player of the era, which might have been the richest in NBA history.

Now, history has remembered Thomas more vividly, and understandably so because he won two championships. Let's remember, though, that basketball is a team game, and teams wins titles. As "rikemaru" of the ESPN general NBA message board has shrewdly noted, one might wonder how a team would win two titles while led by a star (Thomas) who was not an especially efficient player, in terms of his shooting percentage and his turnovers (or assists-to-turnovers ratios, which did not measure up to those of K.J., Stockton, or Magic). After all, all of the stars who've led their respective clubs to multiple championships since the dawn of the eighties, namely Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and Larry Bird, have been extremely efficient. The same was true, in fact, for other championship superstars such as Moses Malone, Bill Walton, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Willis Reed and Walt Frazier, and Wilt Chamberlain.

One must then contemplate why Thomas (career .452 field goal percentage, 3.8 turnovers per game) and Bob Cousy, who shot .375 from the field for his career and not once reached .400, combined for eight championships whereas K.J. and Stockton combined for zero despite being vastly more efficient from the field and free throw line and taking better care of the ball than "Zeke" (K.J. shot .493 from the field for his career and averaged 3.1 turnovers, while Stockton shot .515 from the field for his career and averaged 2.8 turnovers). K.J. (.841) and Stockton (.826) also shot much better from the free throw line than Thomas (.759), and K.J. and Thomas proved virtually equal in combining scoring and playmaking (from 1989-1997, K.J. averaged 19.8 points and 10.0 assists, and from 1983-1991, Thomas averaged 20.1 points and 9.9 assists). They were also similarly brilliant in the postseason, with The Sporting News naming both Thomas and K.J. as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s, behind Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler on the First Team. So given that seeming equality, what put Thomas and Cousy over the top, especially in light of their relative inefficiency?

The answer, of course, lies with their teammates. Unlike Stockton and certainly K.J., Cousy and Thomas enjoyed tremendous defensive support behind them. Cousy had Bill Russell, the greatest shot-blocker and defender of all-time, and Thomas had the toughest defensive team of his era, one marked by a bedrock front line featuring Bill Laimbeer, James Edwards, Rick Mahorn (for the first title), John Salley, and Dennis Rodman. As "rikemaru" has correctly noted, you can afford to be more inefficient offensively if your team can stop the opposition consistently enough, and that helps explain the vast discrepancy in rings between Cousy and Thomas on the one hand and Stockton and K.J. on the other.

That irony brings me back to the original point about considering K.J. in the twenties among history's greatest players. As "Glove" stated, realistically, his injuries push him back into the thirties, but the point is the ambiguity of the matter. Basketball is a team sport, and the amount of factors necessary to win a championships is multitudinous. Henceforth, ranking players individually almost becomes a juvenile exercise, or at least a fallacious, artificial, and potentially misleading one. Now, there are some players, namely the top-ten in history, who proved so dominant and effective that they stand out dramatically and almost transcend their context. Indeed, you could use any as a franchise player and probably still be able to put together a championship-caliber club. For me, those top-ten are as follows in alphabetical order:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell

However, even there, championships are not guaranteed unless the player is surrounded by the right supporting talent. Oscar Robertson missed the playoffs entirely in his last three seasons in Cincinnati and failed to lead his club to a winning season in the last four, even though he played with another Hall of Famer in Jerry Lucas and other talented guys such as Happy Hairston. He then won a championship with Lew Alcindor (soon Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) in Milwaukee in 1971, but Kareem wasn't invincible, either. When Robertson retired in 1974, Milwaukee instantly collapsed from 59 wins and Game Seven of the NBA Finals to 38 wins and missing the playoffs entirely. In fact, in Abdul-Jabbar's five seasons without either Robertson or Magic Johnson (1975-1979), his teams won 50 games just once, won one division title, and reached a conference final once. Once again, basketball is very much a team game and should largely be judged as such.

By the time that you move from the top-ten to the top-twenty, the matter of which players were most effective and would give you the best chance to win becomes extremely murky. For instance, I would probably place John Havlicek in the top-twenty and ahead of K.J., but one could make a case for K.J. if starting a virtual team. Sure, Havlicek won eight championships in his career, but one could argue that he was never the best player on any of those clubs. He won his championships with MVP centers in Bill Russell (in the sixties) and Dave Cowens (in the seventies), guys whose presence on defense and on the boards helped compensate for the fact that Havlicek was not a terribly efficient player (he shot .439 for his career). In the one season where Havlicek did not play with either Russell or Cowens (1970), he led the Celtics to all of 34 wins as they missed the playoffs and finished with the fourth-worst record in the NBA. So if you put him, instead of K.J., on the '88-'89 Suns as the team's leading playmaker, a team that was defensively soft across its front line, would they necessarily have been better? Could they not have been worse?

[GMATCallahan]

The bottom line is that because it's so ambiguous, uncertain, and close, once you reach beyond the top 15-20 players of all-time, you can go in any number of directions in determining who was the best. It may actually be impossible or implausible to render a "pure," isolated judgment, and it may become necessary to weight context and contingencies such as who the player's teammates might be, what kind of style the team will be running, and what kind of competition will emerge (head-to-head matchups), or whether you're looking more for a championship run or longevity (especially in the case of someone such as Bill Walton or George Mikan), scoring or defense, playmaking or rebounding, a guard or a big man.

The 11-31 players might look something as follows, again in alphabetical order.

Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Dave Cowens
Clyde Drexler
Julius Erving
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
Elvin Hayes
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
George Mikan
Bob McAdoo
Bob Pettit
Scottie Pippen
Willis Reed
David Robinson
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Bill Walton
Jerry West

But even so, K.J. should have a great, safe case for the thirties, and the point is that one could start to consider him in the twenties. As I've revealed, it's really not clear that Isiah Thomas or John Havlicek was a more effective player than K.J., but they played with the kinds of teammates who gave them a better chance at a championship. And consider that until Tim Duncan arrived, David Robinson actually led a team to less success than K.J., even before Barkley arrived in Phoenix (and Robinson did play with talented teammates such as Dennis Rodman, Sean Elliot, Terry Cummings, and Rod Strickland). Nor was it ever clear that John Stockton would give you a better chance at a championship than Kevin Johnson, especially in light of their head-to-head competition. During a 14-game regular season stretch beginning in the spring of 1989 and ending in the fall of 1993, K.J. averaged 30 points and 11 assists per game (shooting 52% from the field) against Stockton as the Suns went 10-4 versus the Jazz (and two of those losses came by one point each, so it easily could have been 12-2). Here are the box scores for the 14 consecutive head-to-head matchups over that time period:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19890405.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19900214.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19900313.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19900409.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19901102.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19901103.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/UTA19910206.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19910402.html

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1991&b=19911130&tm=phx

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1991&b=19920131&tm=uta

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1991&b=19920301&tm=phx

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1991&b=19920403&tm=uta

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1992&b=19930411&tm=phx

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1993&b=19931127&tm=phx

Here are the final statistical tallies for that span of four-and-a-half years:

Kevin Johnson: 30.4 points, 10.8 assists, .518 field goal percentage (18.4 FGA), .881 free throw percentage (12.6 FTA), 2.1 rebounds, 1.8 steals, 4.4 turnovers, 2.44:1.00 assists-to-turnovers, 40.6 minutes, Suns 10-4

John Stockton: 16.4 points, 12.5 assists, .500 field goal percentage (12.1 FGA), .879 free throw percentage (4.1 FTA), 2.7 rebounds, 1.9 steals, 3.3 turnovers, 3.80:1.00 assists-to-turnovers, 37.6 minutes, Jazz 4-10

As "Bizzle" on ESPN's NBA board, a Lakers' fan since the 1960s who saw Bill Russell play live, has stated, he likes Stockton better, but he would take K.J. And of course, the reason is that K.J. could dominate the game with scoring in a way that Stockton simply could not. Indeed, it's thus hardly surprising that K.J. first reached the Western Conference Finals in his second NBA season and his first as a full-time starter, and the NBA Finals in his sixth NBA season and his fifth as a full-time starter, whereas Stockton first reached the Western Conference Finals in his eighth NBA season and his fifth as a full-time starter, and the NBA Finals in his thirteenth NBA season and his tenth as a full-time starter. Frankly, one could go either way, but for at least half the guys on that 11-32 list that I presented, it's not clear that they were more effective than K.J. or would be a better choice for your team, and the question would frankly depend on what you needed and other contextual factors.

You can think of a top-player of all-time list as being akin to a historical draft, and the idea in this situation is that you would draft based on the best player available, that that's what the list would represent. But once you reach the 15-20 range, it's really not clear who was the best, and many of the cases are so close than one could go either way, or in multiple ways. To pretend other wise is to falsify the situation in fallacious simplicity. Even if you look at K.J. versus Drexler, the answer to which player you should choose really ought to come down to whether you need a point guard or a shooting guard, a supreme playmaker or a supreme wing player. To say that one was simply superior to the other is incorrect and simplifies and the complexity of a team sport. Remember, we're talking five-on-five basketball, not tennis or golf. Likewise, the players in the Hall of Fame may not always be the most effective ones, or the ones who'll create the greatest winning impact. Dominique Wilkins is in the Hall of Fame, and Kevin Johnson is not, but Wilkins never played in a single conference finals, not once. I know that the competition was rough in the Eastern Conference of the 1980s, but Wilkins played fifteen NBA seasons. I believe that he deserves his Hall of Fame plaque, but I also know that if I'm starting a team with the hopes of making a championship run, I'm taking Kevin Johnson without question.

The point is that these questions and debates are complex, ambiguous, and worthy of various perspectives rather than simplistic standards or reactionary retorts. That's the nature of a team sport, and to not be open-minded would, as Charles Barkley might have said during his deodorant commercial days, be uncivilized.

[JtotheIzzo]

one question for all you stat afficianatoes here:

Do you factor in the style of play that was prevelant during GP and KJ's era in the Western Conference?

it was high scoring and minimal defense, with lots of open court play benifiting the stats of the pg.

Do you factor in the run and gun style of play employed by both the Suns and Sonics of that era?

Comparing stats between KJ and Isiah is a waste of time because of the teams style of play.

Here is the only stat you need and it is rings:

Zeke-2
KJ - 0

Isiah could have easily been much more 'efficient' and had much prettier stats had he been in KJ's spot in Phoenix, because of the style of play.

Quit whoring these asinine stats when you dont explain the realities of how they came to fruition, because without context they mean nothing.

[GMATCallahan]

Phoenix won more because they had a more talented team, so it's hard to measure that when doing a head to head matchup.

1992-1993 teams

Phoenix

Charles Barkley
Tom Chambers
Danny Ainge
Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Cedric Ceballos
Mark West
Oliver Miller
Richard Dumas
(the rest don't matter)

Utah

Karl Malone
Jeff Malone
John Stockton
Tyrone Corbin
Jay Humphries
David Benoit
Mike Brown
Mark Eaton
(rest don't matter)

And I still think you need to show the stats up until 96-97... because they were still in their primes, and it's going to even the numbers more, like coin flip does if you flip it enough times.

Regarding 1993, you're talking about just one season. Overall, the Suns and Jazz averaged close to the same amount of wins during that era, but the difference was that K.J. dominated Stockton head-to-head, not just in wins, but in the individual matchup (thus leading to the wins). See my previous post where I provide detailed aggregate statistics and box scores.

In the mid-nineties, that trend started to lessen, in part because the Suns' perimeter shooting around K.J. began to decline and thus allowed Utah to help Stockton more readily by running multiple defenders at Johnson to cut him off, without paying as much of a price. Besides, by the '95-'96 season, the Jazz possessed a vastly better team than the Suns (examine the records), not because K.J. had fallen off vis-a-vis Stockton, but because of Utah's superior stability and shrewd development of its supporting cast.

[GMATCallahan]

one question for all you stat afficianatoes here:

Do you factor in the style of play that was prevelant during GP and KJ's era in the Western Conference?

it was high scoring and minimal defense, with lots of open court play benifiting the stats of the pg.

Do you factor in the run and gun style of play employed by both the Suns and Sonics of that era?

Comparing stats between KJ and Isiah is a waste of time because of the teams style of play.

Here is the only stat you need and it is rings:

Zeke-2
KJ - 0

Isiah could have easily been much more 'efficient' and had much prettier stats had he been in KJ's spot in Phoenix, because of the style of play.

Quit whoring these asinine stats when you dont explain the realities of how they came to fruition, because without context they mean nothing.

LOL, you're the one who doesn't understand, because until the late eighties, Isiah Thomas ran the run-and-gun in Detroit (the Pistons averaged 117.1 points in 1984, 116.0 in 1985, 114.1 in 1986, and 111.2 in 1987, and they took part in the highest-scoring game in NBA history on December 13, 1983, a 186-184 victory over Denver in which Thomas scored 47 points). While running the run-and-gun, he posted the same kinds of scoring and playmaking averages as K.J. in the run-and-gun, but with less efficiency.

Isiah Thomas, 1984-1987 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.0 points, 11.5 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.2 steals, .467 field goal percentage, .774 free throw percentage, 3.9 turnovers, 2.97:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson, 1989-1992 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.2 points, 11.1 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.6 steals, .500 field goal percentage, .843 free throw percentage, 3.6 turnovers, 3.07:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

In their greatest four-season stretches, Thomas' assists-to-turnovers ratio proved a little worse than K.J.'s, he averaged more turnovers per game and, more importantly, he was still much more inefficient from the field and the free throw line. What Detroit head coach Chuck Daly discovered was that because of Thomas' relative inefficiencies (relative to other superstars of his era), it did not pay to have him shooting as often and dominating the offense as much in a fast-paced game. The Pistons could only win a championship if Daly turned the roster into a defense-oriented squad that could stymie the opposition and thus compensate for his leader's inefficiencies. Henceforth, out went the offensive-minded Kelly Tripucka, in came defense-first players such as Dennis Rodman and John Salley, and by 1988, the Pistons were averaging fewer than 110 points per game and reaching the NBA Finals.

You're the one who cannot comprehend context if you simplistically break out the "two rings to none" argument. As I explained earlier in one of my posts a few minutes ago, basketball is a team sport, not an individual one. Isiah Thomas, like Bob Cousy, won championships not just because he was a great player and a clutch player (which he was), but because he enjoyed the defensive support that could compensate for his inefficiencies and that is typically necessary to win championships. Thomas won two rings to K.J.'s none largely because his team context was more conducive to championship basketball, not because he was necessarily the greater individual player. As I've noted, in 1998, The Sporting News named both Thomas and K.J. as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s. Thomas and K.J. played in three career Game Sevens each, and here were their respective statistics in those winner-take-all Game Sevens.

Isiah Thomas: 18.7 points, 9.0 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, .368 field goal percentage (19.0 FGA), .200 three-point field goal percentage (1.7 FGA), .765 free throw percentage (5.7 FTA), 2.0 turnovers, 4.50:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson: 31.0 points, 10.0 assists, 2.3 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .424 field goal percentage (19.7 FGA), .250 three-point field goal percentage (1.3 FGA), .933 free throw percentage (15.0 FTA), 2.7 turnovers, 3.75:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

And all three of K.J.'s Game Sevens came with Barkley on his team, whereas Thomas never played with someone who dominated the ball quite to Barkley's degree. And, sure, Thomas had the bum ankle in Game Seven of the 1988 NBA Finals versus the Lakers, but then people fault K.J. for getting hurt. (By the way, Thomas' and K.J.'s teams each went 1-2 in those Game Sevens, again proving that basketball is a team sport. In the two Game Sevens that K.J.'s Suns lost, Johnson averaged 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage, shooting 28-29 from the line. However, no matter how great the individual player's performance, it is still a team sport.)

So K.J. was every bit the clutch player that Thomas was, and don't be a "rings whore" who ignores team context. Also, after Barkley arrived in Phoenix, K.J. could not run-and-gun as much because the Suns moved to a post-up offense, and as the 1990s progressed, the entire NBA became more slowly paced, especially compared to Thomas' statistical heyday in the trigger-happy mid-1980s. Don't pretend that you comprehend context if you don't.

[GMATCallahan]

I don't know how to explain what I saw... Perhaps the numbers would show that KJ was great at dishing assists the first 3 quarters and then had the ball 80% of the time in the fourth.. But I recall him holding the ball a lot, over-dribbling or something... I don't know how to describe it or make an argument for it. There's a formula out there somewhere that would explain it though.

I'm not calling him selfish exactly... But, when comparing him to Stockton (You neglected to show his ratio btw), he did look like a ballhog. I mean... that was more his game, and suited his style, but I also felt that Stockton would have got all of Johnson's teammates more involved and made them better. KJ didn't set screen's anywhere near as good as Stockton did, for example.

Of course Stockton was more pass-first than K.J., so what? The fact that K.J. could take over games in the fourth quarter when Stockton could or would not was an asset, because sometimes that's what you need to do as a star. He was not a ball-hog (look at his efficiency, and his shot attempts were about the same as Magic Johnson's), but he did know how to step up and take over a game at will when the Suns needed it, and that quality gave K.J. a deeply valuable dimension that Stockton generally lacked. As I noted earlier, there's a reason why K.J. first reached the Western Conference Finals in his second NBA season and his first as a full-time starter, and the NBA Finals in his sixth NBA season and his fifth as a full-time starter, whereas Stockton first reached the Western Conference Finals in his eighth NBA season and his fifth as a full-time starter, and the NBA Finals in his thirteenth NBA season and his tenth as a full-time starter. It's a good thing that Stockton's longevity proved so great, because otherwise he might never have achieved the same playoff success as K.J.

Also, the fact that Stockton was more pass-first than K.J. didn't mean that K.J. didn't also pass quite a bit and make his teammates better. Let me quote an earlier part of the thread (one of my earlier posts) in my next post.

[GMATCallahan]

K.J. had a lot to do with some of those All-Star appearances by his teammates. Hornacek made his only All-Star Game playing next to K.J. in 1992, even though he later spent six-and-a-half seasons alongside John Stockton in Utah's backcourt. Dan Majerle never averaged as many as 11.0 points in his seven seasons after leaving K.J., immediately dropping from 15.6 with Phoenix in 1995 to 10.6 in Cleveland in 1996. Part of that decline can be explained by Majerle playing fewer minutes on a new team, but he was still just 30 years old and could have played more had his new coaching staff deemed him effective enough. Without K.J., though, that wasn't the case, even though Majerle had joined one of the better point guards of the day in Terrell Brandon (and later Tim Hardaway in Miami). Still, he couldn't come close to duplicating his success alongside K.J. in Phoenix.

As for Tom Chambers, he'd made one All-Star Game in seven seasons prior to joining K.J., but he then made the All-Star team three years in a row as soon as he started running with Johnson. Check out these K.J.-Chambers hook-ups:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/for...c&daysprune=-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_jBW...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN4-b...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBS...elated&search=

And Eddie Johnson received his only NBA honor (1989 Sixth Man of the Year) playing next to K.J.

Let me also quote a recent post of mine on another board to reveal more about the K.J.-Chambers dynamic and how K.J. had made the Sixers' "Barkley haul" (Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) seem quite attractive at the time.

...

In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/column_...av=ArticleList

Playing with K.J. allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-season scoring average record two years in a row with 25.7 in 1989 and 27.2 in 1990, the latter mark remaining a franchise record. Playing with K.J. also allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-game scoring record with 60 points, just a month after scoring 56.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19900324.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...W19900218.html

Conversely, Shawn Kemp never averaged 20.0 points per game with Payton, a mark that he surely would have reached with K.J. Or look at the three players whom Phoenix dealt to Philadelphia in the Charles Barkley blockbuster of June 1992. On the surface, it seemed as if the Sixers were receiving quite a haul of talent, three starters off a 53-win team (Jeff Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) who had shot the following respective field goal percentages during the '92 season: .512, .523, .522. Three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field should have helped the Sixers. However, as Philadelphia soon found out, those players were not nearly as effective once removed from K.J., even though Hornacek was a fine guard either way. Indeed, in Philadelphia in '93, Hornacek, Perry, and Lang shot just .470, .468, and .425 from the field, respectively. Perhaps the Sixers should have listened to Clyde Drexler after Perry scored 27 points in Game Three of the 1992 Western Conference Semifinals, with K.J. posting 16 points and 16 assists after going for 35 points (including 18 in a row, 22 in the third quarter, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line) in Game Two and before recording 35 points and 14 assists in Game Four. Here was Drexler's quotation in the Los Angeles Times.

Johnson and Hornacek Put Run, Fun in Suns; [Home Edition] Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 10, 1992. pg. 5

Kevin Johnson, who runs the Phoenix offense, had 16 points and 16 assists.

"We ran up and down the court, and I found (Tim) Perry open, and pretty soon it just opened up for everybody," Johnson said

... "I don't think we stopped Kevin (Johnson) because he was able to get the ball to Perry and those other guys. I believe he might as well have scored Perry's 27 points," Drexler said.

K.J. actually made Perry seem like an attractive commodity to Philadelphia.

I'll also quote Hornacek's letter to K.J. in 2001:

I also want to thank you for helping to make my career what it was. I wasn't happy at first ... Cotton made you the point guard without even having to beat me out, but obviously he knew what he was doing! I learned quickly, as did everyone else who has had the privilege of playing along side of you, that my game would benefit from having you at point guard. You are one of few players who can elevate the play of those around you.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnso...av=ArticleList

[JtotheIzzo]

LOL, you're the one who doesn't understand, because until the late eighties, Isiah Thomas ran the run-and-gun in Detroit (the Pistons averaged 117.1 points in 1984, 116.0 in 1985, 114.1 in 1986, and 111.2 in 1987, and they took part in the highest-scoring game in NBA history on December 13, 1983, a 186-184 victory over Denver in which Thomas scored 47 points). While running the run-and-gun, he posted the same kinds of scoring and playmaking averages as K.J. in the run-and-gun, but with less efficiency.

Isiah Thomas, 1984-1987 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.0 points, 11.5 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.2 steals, .467 field goal percentage, .774 free throw percentage, 3.9 turnovers, 2.97:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson, 1989-1992 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.2 points, 11.1 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.6 steals, .500 field goal percentage, .843 free throw percentage, 3.6 turnovers, 2.98:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

In their greatest four-season stretches, Thomas' assists-to-turnovers ratio was close to the same as K.J.'s, but he still averaged more turnovers per game and, more importantly, was still much more inefficient from the field and the free throw line. What Detroit coach Chuck Daly discovered was that because of Thomas' relative inefficiencies (relative to other superstars of his era), it did not pay to have him shooting as often and dominating the offense as much in a fast-paced game. The Pistons could only win a championship if Daly turned the roster into a defense-oriented squad that could stymie the opposition and thus compensate for his leader's inefficiencies. Henceforth, out went the offensive-minded Kelly Tripucka, in came defense-first players such as Dennis Rodman and John Salley, and by 1988, the Pistons were averaging fewer than 110 points per game and reaching the NBA Finals.

You're the one who cannot comprehend context if you simplistically break out the "two rings to none" argument. As I explained earlier in one of my posts a few minutes ago, basketball is a team sport, not an individual one. Isiah Thomas, like Bob Cousy, won championships not just because he was a great player and a clutch player (which he was), but because he enjoyed the defensive support that could compensate for his inefficiencies and that is typically necessary to win championships. Thomas won two rings to K.J.'s none largely because his team context was more conducive to championship basketball, not because he was necessarily the greater individual player. As I've noted, in 1998, The Sporting News named both Thomas and K.J. as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s. Thomas and K.J. played in three career Game Sevens each, and here were their respective statistics in those winner-take-all Game Sevens.

Isiah Thomas: 18.7 points, 9.0 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, .368 field goal percentage (19.0 FGA), .200 three-point field goal percentage (1.7 FGA), .765 free throw percentage (5.7 FTA), 2.0 turnovers, 4.50:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson: 31.0 points, 10.0 assists, 2.3 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .424 field goal percentage (19.7 FGA), .250 three-point field goal percentage (1.3 FGA), .933 free throw percentage (15.0 FTA), 2.7 turnovers, 3.75:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

And all three of K.J.'s Game Sevens came with Barkley on his team, whereas Thomas never played with someone who dominated the ball quite to Barkley's degree. And, sure, Thomas had the bum ankle in Game Seven of the 1988 NBA Finals versus the Lakers, but then people fault K.J. for getting hurt. (By the way, Thomas' and K.J.'s teams each went 1-2 in those Game Sevens, again proving that it's a team sport. In the two Game Sevens that K.J.'s Suns lost, Johnson averaged 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage, shooting 28-29 from the line. However, no matter how great the individual player's performance, it is still a team sport.)

So K.J. was every bit the clutch player that Thomas was, and don't be a "rings whore" who ignores team context. Also, after Barkley arrived in Phoenix, K.J. could not run-and-gun as much because the Suns moved to a post-up offense, and as the 1990s progressed, the entire NBA became more slowly paced, especially compared to Thomas' statistical heyday in the trigger-happy mid-1980s. Don't pretend that you comprehend context if you don't.

whew! Do you think you could just link an audio book next time? I hope you didn't write the essay portion of your GMAT in a similar manner.

YOU STILL WILL NOT acknowledge that the Western Conference was WAY more wide open back in those days and much less physical than the East. The lanes were much less clogged and this directly contributes to KJs higher field goal percentage.

You also act like having Barkley on the team hurt KJ. This is ridiculous. It opened up the floor for KJ and occupied the helpside defense. Zeke was also the primary threat on his team, KJ had his best years as second fiddle.


thinking KJ>Zeke is the retarded musing of a homer fan and you can use all the cross statistical analysis you want it just doesn't add up.

you're wrong.

[GMATCallahan]

Also see the following quotation from Tom Chambers (the one who called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am"), and note how talks about K.J. liking to distribute the ball:

Cesmat: Tom, think back to Kevin Johnson, when you first started playing alongside him. What were your thoughts of this kid?

Chambers: Well, it brought a smile to my face, first of all. He was enthusiastic, energetic. He had skills, he could jump, he liked to distribute the ball. He could shoot it. I mean, he was just a really, really complete athlete. And most of all, he liked to run. He was always running. And to clear up one more thing, I wouldn't have come to Phoenix without Kevin Johnson being here ... I wanted to come here and be on a young, running team with some enthusiasm and go from ground zero where we were starting from to getting ourselves back to an elite team. So it was just awesome playing with Kevin.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnson_roundtable_010306.html

Indeed, in seven seasons before joining K.J. in Phoenix in 1988, the 29-year old Chambers had made one All-Star Team and zero All-NBA Teams. In his first three years with K.J., however, Chambers made three All-Star Teams and two All-NBA Second Teams. Playing with K.J. actually turned Chambers into a top-ten NBA player for a couple years. It's no wonder then, that in 2001, Chambers (who later played with Stockton in Utah for two seasons) claimed that he would rather take passes from K.J. than Stockton.

jake tempe from [63.230.193.1], at 2:37pm ET
if you had to pick one!!! who would you rather get the ball from?? kj or john stockton?


Tom Chambers
at 2:38pm ET
KJ for sure. He was always looking for me and I was his number one priority.

http://www.nba.com/suns/interactive/chambers_transcript_010306.html

But what was great about K.J. was that he could play both ways, and when his teammates weren't doing anything, he could take over himself. As Chambers also stated in that chat:

Kevin was very good -- there aren't many point guards who are capable of that kind of thing. Isiah Thomas could do it every night, but beyond that, they're tough to find. I would compare those two a lot. Kevin was the most explosive guard I've seen and he could just take over a game almost at will. There are very few players like that who have played the point guard position.

http://www.nba.com/suns/interactive/chambers_transcript_010306.html

Indeed, that 1992 Western Conference Semifinals series with Portland, the one that I referenced in the previous post, is a perfect example of how K.J. could and would adjust his game from the point guard position based on the context of the competition and the needs of his team (K.J. always did what the team needed to win, whether it was passing or scoring, depending on what the situation called for).

In Game Two of that series, the Suns were down big at halftime and K.J. had scored just 2 points. With his team desperate, K.J. didn't just lay back and play passively, watching his team lose while his teammates couldn't do anything. In the third quarter, he scored 22 points, including 18 in a row, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line. Although the Suns lost, they made it a close game and actually took the lead at one point. (That's something that Stockton, for example, would or could not do in Game Three of 1998 NBA Finals: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/CHI19980607.html.)

In Game Three, K.J. found Tim Perry early and often and went for 16 points and 16 assists as the Suns won. In Game Four, K.J. both scored and passed prolificly, posting 35 points and 14 assists before fouling out in the second overtime as the Suns lost, 153-151.

To quote "musictoad," a Stockton fan from the ESPN NBA general message board:

KJ was explosive, plain and simple, but had all the nuances essential for being a good set up guard as well as a scoring guard.

http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=nba&id=general&tid=1153830&tsn=61

That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell, and helps explain why K.J.'s points and assists were so high, and why he wasn't much less efficient than Stockton. One of the criticisms of Stockton was that sometimes, he was so busy playing his "pure," textbook point guard role that he wouldn't always take the shots when they were there or when he was the team's best option. Obviously, he would at times, but especially early in his career, people felt that he wasn't aggressive enough and thus couldn't do as much as K.J. or Isiah Thomas (although Thomas, unlike K.J., was more inefficient).

[JtotheIzzo]

wow, you sourced a first person testimonial from an adoring teammate.:applause: It is really difficult to get a teammate to say nice things about another teammate to the media.

How did you ever find such a thing.

There it is right there, all the proof you need:hammerhead:

KJ is waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Zeke.

Case closed. KJ is the GOAT

I guess I will move on now, those sappy words from TC have me dripping with affection for KJ, I will never try to say Isiah is better than KJ ever again.

ever!

thank you for showing me the error in my ways.:rolleyes:

[GMATCallahan]

whew! Do you think you could just link an audio book next time? I hope you didn't write the essay portion of your GMAT in a similar manner.

YOU STILL WILL NOT acknowledge that the Western Conference was WAY more wide open back in those days and much less physical than the East. The lanes were much less clogged and this directly contributes to KJs higher field goal percentage.

You also act like having Barkley on the team hurt KJ. This is ridiculous. It opened up the floor for KJ and occupied the helpside defense. Zeke was also the primary threat on his team, KJ had his best years as second fiddle.


thinking KJ>Zeke is the retarded musing of a homer fan and you can use all the cross statistical analysis you want it just doesn't add up.

you're wrong.

I do not think that K.J. was better Thomas. I do think that they were on the same level and I use empirical evidence to support my case, and if that's a crime, sue me.

Having Barkley on the team did not hurt K.J. as an overall player or threat, but it did slow the Suns' offense down a little and took the ball out of K.J.'s hands to some degree, hence explaining the drop in his numbers. In the four years prior to Barkley's arrival (1989-1992), K.J. averaged 21.2 points, 11.1 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage. In his four years with Barkley, K.J. averaged 17.8 points, 8.7 assists, and a .491 field goal percentage, still terrific statistics but ones that aren't as spectacular. Instead of running down the court at fast to stop-and-pop the jumper, K.J. would slow it up more often and wait for Barkley because the Suns were running a post-up offense. The floor was actually more open in Phoenix before Barkely arrived, because there was no one to hold the ball in the post for an eternity and slowly dribble while everyone else stood around watching. Barkley made the team better overall, but he certainly rendered the Suns' offense less fluid and a bit more clogged. Before Barkley, the Suns had enough shooters to open up the floor for K.J.

The Western Conference was more open than the East in, say, the early 1990s. In the mid-1980s, when Thomas was at his statistical peak, that wasn't necessarily the case, at least not for Detroit. If everything was so clogged, then how do you explain that the mid-eighties Pistons averaged about as many points as K.J.'s Suns did in the late eighties and early nineties? In fact, the 1985 Pistons featured a faster "pace factor" (107.7) than the '89 Suns (107.2).

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=DET&lg=n&yr=1984

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=PHO&lg=n&yr=1988

In other words, Thomas was playing a slightly faster game because the NBA was even more up-tempo in the mid-eighties, and the faster the game, the less clogged the court.

And K.J. was more efficient than a peak Thomas even in the mid-to-late nineties (say, 1996 and 1997), when the West was more slowly paced than the East had been in the mid-1980s. In '96, when K.J. shot .507 from the field, the Suns' "pace factor" was only 96.1.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=PHO&lg=n&yr=1995

In '97, when he shot .496 from the field, Phoenix's "pace factor" was just 95.8.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/teamyear.htm?tm=PHO&lg=n&yr=1996

But when the 1985 Pistons were playing at a "pace factor" of 107.7, Thomas shot just .458 from the field.

In other words, the game of the mid-to-late nineties (even in the West) was much slower and more defensive-oriented than it had been during Thomas' mid-eighties statistical peak (even in the East), and yet K.J. was still far more efficient. That doesn't mean that he was necessarily the better player in the scope of basketball history, but it is an area where Johnson held an advantage.

[GMATCallahan]

wow, you sourced a first person testimonial from an adoring teammate.:applause: It is really difficult to get a teammate to say nice things about another teammate to the media.

How did you ever find such a thing.

There it is right there, all the proof you need:hammerhead:

KJ is waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Zeke.

Case closed. KJ is the GOAT

I guess I will move on now, those sappy words from TC have me dripping with affection for KJ, I will never try to say Isiah is better than KJ ever again.

ever!

thank you for showing me the error in my ways.:rolleyes:

Again, I do not think that K.J. was better than Thomas, just that they were on the same level. What's more, I have not just used quotations but also extensive statistics. First you damn me for empirical evidence, and now you damn me for personal testimonials? :)

Besides, I was actually using Chambers' quotations to reveal K.J.'s tendencies as a point guard and how they would vary based on what the team needed. I wasn't using them to make any comment about Isiah.

[JtotheIzzo]

Again, I do not think that K.J. was better than Thomas, just that they were on the same level. What's more, I have not just used quotations but also extensive statistics. First you damn me for empirical evidence, and now you damn me for personal testimonials? :)

Besides, I was actually using Chambers' quotations to reveal K.J.'s tendencies as a point guard and how they would vary based on what the team needed. I wasn't using them to make any comment about Isiah.

yes I am aware of that, and I was being cheeky to try and show how emotionally invested you are in this and how much of a waste it would be for me to put in an efforted reply.

I like KJ too, but I do not have the adoration to equate him with Zeke. Not in my world, I realize I cant change your world, and the propaganda front you put up is most impressive.

I'll leave it at that, but for future reference, please remember that numbers and quotes can be sourced and manipulated in all directions ad nauseum, so using them as the determining or damning factor does not make you an authority, it only makes you a know-it-all, and not in the good way.

[GMATCallahan]

Here's another note.

Phoenix Suns, 1989-1992 (four seasons before Barkley): 217 regular season wins, two Western Conference Finals, three Western Conference Semifinals, four playoff trips, qualified for nine rounds of the playoffs total

Phoenix Suns, 1993-1996 (four seasons with Barkley): 218 regular season wins, one NBA Finals, one Western Conference Finals, three Western Conference Semifinals, four playoff trips, qualified for nine rounds of the playoffs total

Now, Barkley constituted a positive overall and he helped K.J. reach the NBA Finals (just as K.J. helped Barkley reach the NBA Finals), but Johnson actually played in more Western Conference Finals without Barkley than with him, and overall, the Suns' regular season and postseason success rates proved virtually identical.

[GMATCallahan]

yes I am aware of that, and I was being cheeky to try and show how emotionally invested you are in this and how much of a waste it would be for me to put in an efforted reply.

I like KJ too, but I do not have the adoration to equate him with Zeke. Not in my world, I realize I cant change your world, and the propaganda front you put up is most impressive.

I'll leave it at that, but for future reference, please remember that numbers and quotes can be sourced and manipulated in all directions ad nauseum, so using them as the determining or damning factor does not make you an authority, it only makes you a know-it-all, and not in the good way.

Well, I'm not trying to put up propaganda or manipulate anything. I don't believe in doing anything dishonestly, and I have indicated (for instance) that Thomas was just as prolific a scorer and playmaker as K.J.

Ultimately, I'm just making an honest argument, one that shouldn't be hard to believe. K.J. and Thomas were similarly explosive, but K.J. was more efficient, and I'm not manipulating anything to show that. I don't believe that K.J. was necessarily better, but I do think that you could take either one and not be dramatically worse off. Thomas will be remembered more in history and understandably so because he led two championship-winning clubs, but as I've noted, he eventually played with the sort of team support conducive to winning a title (just like Bob Cousy). In the end, it is a team game.

[GMATCallahan]

Sure, 21 games per year. Which ever way you slice it, or try to avoid the issue by saying 'he never missed a playoff game', he was still injury prone. Very much so as a matter of fact. Broke the 80 game barriar once in his career, and only played 70+ games 33% of his career.

I'm not trying to 'interfere', I'm just making a point. A point that you don't really have to have seen Kevin Johnson play a lot to make. He was injury prone. That's a major career detriment.

Once again, just sayin.

But sure, feel free to continue to talk down to me as if I'm an infant. As long as it produces positive effects for youself, I see no reason for you to stop.

Being injury-prone is what's hurt K.J.'s legacy most of all, and that's understandable. However, we should also understand context, and I'll copy a post of mine from earlier in the thread:

Injuries are the knock on K.J., and that's understandable. However, you also have to understand the injuries. Some feel that in the history of the NBA, no one has penetrated the lane and attacked the basket like K.J., and he played in an extremely physical era. As Danny Ainge once said, in the 1990s, referees just stopped calling fouls, and K.J. paid the price. To quote a post of mine:

As the '95-'96 ESPN NBA preview noted, when K.J. was hot, it seemed like the only way to stop him was to hurt him. Well, don't think that teams didn't realize that and didn't try to make him pay a price when he rocketed through lane and attacked the rim. In 2001, an Arizona Republic sportswriter (Norm Frauenheim) recalled that opponents would sometimes pummel K.J. into the floor at old Veterans Memorial Coliseum in Phoenix so hard that it seemed as if the earth was shaking.

In today's NBA, I'd bet that K.J. would hold up much better. Besides, Tiny Archibald played in 876 of 1,148 potential regular season games over the 14-season span of his career (1971-1984), a 76.3% rate. K.J., meanwhile, played in 729 of 902 potential regular season games over the 11-season span of his career (1988-1998), an 80.8% rate (I'm not counting K.J.'s brief comeback in the spring of 2000 when he popped out of a two-year, official retirement to help the Suns after Jason Kidd broke his ankle). And K.J. played in 105 of 106 potential playoff games (99.1%).

[GMATCallahan]

RidonK, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't interfere.


I am guessing you counted the last year 2000? Kevin Johnson only played in the end of the year because Jason Kidd hurt his ankle and had to sit out some games in the playoffs. So Kevin Johnson, comes OUT OF RETIREMENT, to play a couple of games in the end of the season, and play for Kidd in the playoffs at the end. Though he didn't make much of a difference, they got out of the 1st round with Kidd only playing 1 game in the 1st round series. And that was the only time Kidd got out of the first round in the West as well. (The other team's star player was also out)


I doubt you were old enough to remember all of that so you added 2000 as part of KJ's career, but he didn't even get injured that year, and came out of retirement just to help give his team a boost.

And although it didn't necessarily reveal itself in the numbers, K.J. actually made a huge difference for the Suns down the stretch in 2000. To quote a post of mine from the ESPN board:

In the spring of 2000, K.J. popped out of a two-year retirement to help fill-in for an injured Kidd. In Game One of the Western Conference First Round versus the defending champion Spurs and their fabled defense in San Antonio, it was K.J.'s uncanny ability to orchestrate the half-court offense that pushed the Suns over the top. Playing on virtually one leg because of a strained groin muscle, K.J. shot just 1-6 from the field, but as long as he was on the floor, you just knew that Phoenix would win the game, regardless of whether they were up by a point or down by a point. One just felt that with the ball in his hands, he would find a way to navigate the storm and create a basket when it was necessary. Inside the final minute, he even set up Corie Blount (of all people) for a couple of crucial free throws as the Suns squeaked out a 72-70 slowdown road victory.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAS20000422.html

Earlier that spring, NBC telecast a Suns-Kings game in Sacramento and used assists and turnovers to reveal the difference in how the out-of-retirement K.J. and the flashy youngster Jason "White Chocolate" Williams could run an offense. K.J. recorded 9 assists against 2 turnovers in 27 minutes off the bench, whereas Williams played 39 minutes and recorded 3 assists versus 4 turnovers. Naturally, the Suns won.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAC20000409.html

And in Game Three of that Suns-Spurs series, San Antonio was on the verge of blowing out Phoenix in the first quarter before K.J. entered the game.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO20000429.html

In Game One, he recorded the game-high assist total (6 in 25 minutes off the bench, when no one else on either side posted more than 4), and in Game Three, K.J. tied for the game's second-highest assist total (6 in 26 minutes off the bench).

I'll always remember K.J.'s performance in Game One of that series as one of his greatest. Despite playing on one leg because of a groin strain that robbed him of his explosiveness, and despite having just popped out of a two-year official retirement, K.J. totally controlled a slow-down game, just working the offense masterfully. It was like seeing a pitcher who ordinarily would have thrown 99 miles per hour being reduced to 79 by an arm injury and yet still winning the game with guile, control, and command. Instead of winning a track meet, as he would in his prime, K.J. won a chess match.

Without K.J. in that series, San Antonio would have swept Phoenix, 3-0, even without Duncan. With K.J., even the hobbled, out-of-retirement version, the Suns won a playoff series for the only time in a nine-season span (1996-2004).

Also, in the six regular season games that K.J. played that year, he shot .571 from the field, 1.000 on threes (albeit in just one attempt), and 1.000 from the free throw line. During his second game back, versus the Lakers, Marv Albert on TNT noted that usually when players (such as Michael Jordan in '95) return from a long layoff (let alone a retirement), they struggle with their shot. Mike Fratello responded to Albert by saying, "Well, he's just a great athlete" (in 1986, the Oakland Athletics drafted K.J. as a shortstop and he played briefly in their minor league system).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO20000404.html

[Glove_20]

I'm pretty sure all those players you named didn't put up those numbers shooting 50% (or damn near close to it) from the field. Only Wilt, Kareem, MJ, along with Doc and Bird I already named did that for an 8 year span. That actually put's him in even more exclusive company then just Doc and Bird.


-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
-Larry Bird
-Wilt Chamberlain
-Alex English
-Julius Erving
-Michael Jordan


Who doesn't belong in that select group or does Alex Englsih just shoot up the All-Time rankings because he was consistant over an 8 season span?


1. Well now your using 4 statistical categories...I used only 3, its much easier to narrow it down with more categories...

2. And once again, assists and passing is very important to a PG and is maybe the biggest category that defines a PG. However, I can't say the same for rebound/assists being the most important for a SF.

You see what I am saying, compare the importance of efficiency/passing to PGs vs. rebounds/assists to SG/SF/PF/C....big difference....


3. I could use just Points/Assists too

Isiah Thomas, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson

are the only 3 to match KJ there...thats just 2 categories, and look, you have the 3 greatest PGs of All-Time



4. And remmeber, MAGIC JOHNSON was the only to actually exactly replicate the 20/10/50%. Oscar Robertson was close and aroudn the same numbers, so I added him too...

If we did the same with English, many of the guy's I mentioned at first would be addeed on...




KJ matches up ONLY to the top, in the categories that are most important to PGs

[Glove_20]

yes I am aware of that, and I was being cheeky to try and show how emotionally invested you are in this and how much of a waste it would be for me to put in an efforted reply.

I like KJ too, but I do not have the adoration to equate him with Zeke. Not in my world, I realize I cant change your world, and the propaganda front you put up is most impressive.

I'll leave it at that, but for future reference, please remember that numbers and quotes can be sourced and manipulated in all directions ad nauseum, so using them as the determining or damning factor does not make you an authority, it only makes you a know-it-all, and not in the good way.
:rollingeyes:

Wow someone is very narrow minded.


I'd say Isiah Thomas is ahead of KJ careerwise as well, the 2 rings seperate them.


However, everywhere else, its close or KJ has the edge.
His Prime Stats are better, and his peak stats are better (And yes they played in the same Era). And even in clutch Game 7s, KJ has outplayed Isiah by far. And you've been "proven" wrong how many times, every statement you make "Barkley didn't hurt KJ" or "Isiah didn't play in the Run/Gun days" have come up and backfired on you. You've looked like a complete joke.




I mean its definately comparable. Name me another player who has put up better numbers, on winning/contending teams, yet is WAY worse than a player who has put up worse numbers with 2 rings....

I mean, Isiah > KJ, but its definately comparable...All you have been is completely ignorant and have that "It can't be true" mentality...

Here are their 9 year Prime statistics:

KJ:

19.8ppg
10.0apg
49.7% FG
83.9% FT
3.3tpg


Isiah:

20.1ppg
9.9apg
46.2%
77.7%
3.8tpg


Obviously KJ has put up better numbers. And I am not a total statistical guy, so even though he has, I am not going to say KJ > Isiah. But its definately comparable, unless you can name me 2 other players, where 1 has put up better numbers (and that too on contending teams) yet is worse than the player with worse numbers. Not even "worse" but uncomparable

Go ahead and try, you won't be able to find one...Just because its "Kevin Johnson" and "Isiah Thomas" doesn't mean it can't be comparable. You need to remove your bias

[Glove_20]

Phoenix won more because they had a more talented team, so it's hard to measure that when doing a head to head matchup.

1992-1993 teams

Phoenix

Charles Barkley
Tom Chambers
Danny Ainge
Kevin Johnson
Dan Majerle
Cedric Ceballos
Mark West
Oliver Miller
Richard Dumas
(the rest don't matter)

Utah

Karl Malone
Jeff Malone
John Stockton
Tyrone Corbin
Jay Humphries
David Benoit
Mike Brown
Mark Eaton
(rest don't matter)

And I still think you need to show the stats up until 96-97... because they were still in their primes, and it's going to even the numbers more, like coin flip does if you flip it enough times.


1. When I have more time I will...but I just showed "Peak" stats, and there KJ outperformed Stockton easily

2. Barkley played only on the last 2 matchups...The rest KJ was without Barkley, yet they still beat Stockton's team plenty of times, because of KJ's domination on the offensive end over Stockton....

[IceMan2]

You got to at least respect what gmat says. he provides sources and makes everything he says credible. most of the time posters here just make things up as they go. also so the way he says everything really makes you listen as well. but yeah, at least he has sources backing up what he says, that makes what he says legit and credible

[AI Nuggets3]

after years of watching KJ throughout the 80s and 90s, (even owning his horrible Converse react-gel shoes about 15 years ago) sadly the first thing i always think about is how he got injured by getting hugged by his own teammate.

everytime i get in a KJ conversation with people thats always the first thing they bring up....the Barkley hug. wasn't he out for like 2 weeks after that? i hope he took off running the next time he hit a buzzer beater.:oldlol:

good career. he should make it in the 45-60 range on that ISH list.

[GMATCallahan]

Sure, 21 games per year. Which ever way you slice it, or try to avoid the issue by saying 'he never missed a playoff game', he was still injury prone. Very much so as a matter of fact. Broke the 80 game barriar once in his career, and only played 70+ games 33% of his career.

I'm not trying to 'interfere', I'm just making a point. A point that you don't really have to have seen Kevin Johnson play a lot to make. He was injury prone. That's a major career detriment.

Once again, just sayin.

But sure, feel free to continue to talk down to me as if I'm an infant. As long as it produces positive effects for youself, I see no reason for you to stop.

Dude, your facts are still wrong. In K.J.'s eleven-season career (1988-1998, not counting the time when he came out of retirement in the spring of 2000 to aid the Suns in an emergency situation), he averaged 66.3 regular season games per year, meaning that he missed less than 16 per season. Obviously, that's not great, but it's not 21, let alone your original number of 25.

Furthermore, K.J. played in 80 or more games twice, not once, and he played in at least 70 games in six of his eleven seasons (again, you can't count the time that he popped out of a two-year retirement on a moment's notice to help the franchise), which is 55% of the seasons, not 33%. See for yourself here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnske02.html

And K.J. played in at least 67 games in seven of those eleven seasons, which is 64% of the time.

There's no doubt that K.J. was injury-prone, but there's also no need to misrepresent the facts to make your case.

By the way, I'll also note that K.J. had planned to retire in the summer of 1997, but the Suns managed to coax him back for one more year, especially since K.J. still dreamed of a championship. In '97-'98, he played in Phoenix's first dozen games before being sidelined for two months by arthroscopic knee surgery and only playing in 50 regular season games. His original instincts about knowing when his body needed to retire were thus correct, but the team's management wanted to milk him further. See the following interview with K.J. by the Suns' Fastbreak magazine, from the spring of 1997.

FB: Why are your instincts to walk away after 10 years?

KJ: I just felt all along that if I could get a certain amount of years in the league, have great years and still have my health when I walked away, that would be great. You know, I want to be able to run around with my kids someday and not have to ice for three or four days. Health is such a delicate thing that I would really like to have. And another reason why I got to this point was that I've been injured previously for so long -- those four years consecutively -- that the rehabilitation and stuff just got so frustrating for me. It was something that I just don't want to keep on doing at that same pace. And then lastly, it's always been a personal goal of mine to be able to walk away and not play just for the money and be at the top of my game.

FB: But don't you think you could play another year or two and still be at the top of your game and still have your health?

KJ: I think I could play another year or two and be at the top of my game, but the health part -- I can't speculate on that. I mean, only the Lord knows that.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/00382486.html

I'll also note that K.J. missed the first 11 games of the '96-'97 season because of hernia surgery that fall. During the surgery, the Suns' doctors discovered a second hernia that they suspected may have been there for several years.

FB: Before this season you had hernia surgery. While operating, the doctors found a second hernia that they think might have been there for several years. Do you think that had something to do with all those injuries?

KJ: The two things I'd say, God's blessing this year and the hernia surgery, those two things may have really alleviated the hamstring and groin problems I've had in the past and it's just unfortunate that the hernia surgery didn't happen sooner. But I probably wouldn't be the same player I am today had I relied 100 percent on just my body. When you can't play physically sometimes, you have to use your mind a little bit more to compete and to achieve certain things. I'm just glad that this year I've been healthy for the most part and I think God and the hernia surgery you know really had a lot to do with it. It looks that way.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/00382486.html

After missing those first 11 games that season (during which time the Suns went 0-11 despite featuring Sam Cassell and a rookie Steve Nash at the point, proving K.J.'s importance to the team), Johnson only missed one more game the entire year, and that was due to the flu. Overall, after the hernia surgery that removed the "secret," "hidden" hernia, K.J. played in 87 of his next 88 games including the playoffs, before undergoing the arthroscopic knee surgery. With today's improved medical technology and knowledge (1997 wasn't too long ago, but medicine and technology are always rapidly advancing), perhaps the doctors would have discovered that original hernia much sooner and spared K.J. many of his problems.

[GMATCallahan]

after years of watching KJ throughout the 80s and 90s, (even owning his horrible Converse react-gel shoes about 15 years ago) sadly the first thing i always think about is how he got injured by getting hugged by his own teammate.

everytime i get in a KJ conversation with people thats always the first thing they bring up....the Barkley hug. wasn't he out for like 2 weeks after that? i hope he took off running the next time he hit a buzzer beater.:oldlol:

good career. he should make it in the 45-60 range on that ISH list.

In the Suns' third-to-last regular season game of the '92-'93 season, Barkley nailed a miraculous last-second shot to give the Suns the victory. Oliver Miller had thrown the ball off the backboard from out of bounds with about a second left, Barkley caught it off the ricochet while off-balance, and he flung it through the hoop.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1992&b=19930422&tm=POR

In running at K.J. and hugging him, Barkley lifted the diminutive point guard off the ground and they bumped knees, resulting a in a sprained MCL for Johnson that was supposed to sideline him for most, if not all, of the Suns' First Round series with the Lakers. He returned by Game Two, however (I write more about that series earlier in the thread, on the fourth or fifth page).

[GMATCallahan]

I though Stockton was as good at the time, and now...

It was arguable....

Kevin was more of a scorer, and neglected to get his team involved some of the time. Great player and all... Fantastic offensive game for a guard, while still being able to get guys involved, but sometimes he got into ballhog mode.

I think you are starting to over-rate him a bit.

Well, for whatever it's worth, here was the opinion of SLAM basketball writer Alan Paul in the February 2007 edition (no. 104) in an article titled "Shining Star: Whether with his scoring, passing or leadership, Kevin Johnson was always a difference maker. That's only been more true since he retired from the game."

KJ played under control at 110 miles per hour and always kept his teammates involved, never hogging the ball, even while seemingly able to score at will.

(The quotation is on page 100.)

The career Shots-to-Assists Ratios that "Glove" posted would also prove that point: K.J. 1.36:1.00, Steve Nash 1.39:1.00, Jason Kidd 1.40:1.00, Sam Cassell 2.10:1.00. All four point guards played on the '96-'97 Suns.

Of course, you're entitled to your perspective or memory, but there are other viewpoints out there.

[Chalkmaze]

Regarding 1993, you're talking about just one season. Overall, the Suns and Jazz averaged close to the same amount of wins during that era, but the difference was that K.J. dominated Stockton head-to-head, not just in wins, but in the individual matchup (thus leading to the wins). See my previous post where I provide detailed aggregate statistics and box scores.

In the mid-nineties, that trend started to lessen, in part because the Suns' perimeter shooting around K.J. began to decline and thus allowed Utah to help Stockton more readily by running multiple defenders at Johnson to cut him off, without paying as much of a price. Besides, by the '95-'96 season, the Jazz possessed a vastly better team than the Suns (examine the records), not because K.J. had fallen off vis-a-vis Stockton, but because of Utah's superior stability and shrewd development of its supporting cast.

Thanks, you just made my point for me. KJ had much better overall talent to help him in the earlier years than Stockton had, eventually by around 95-96, the Jazz finally started to have a talented overall team, and John had a better supporting cast. That was why I wanted to see the rest of the stats which Glove was so sneaky to hide.

[GMATCallahan]

Here's another excerpt from that SLAM feature on K.J., the one that I mentioned in the prior post (page 100):

SLAM: You had seven double-figure scorers on that team [the '93 Suns, who reached the NBA Finals]. Was there ever any tension over touches? As the point guard, that would have fallen on you.

KJ: I took it as a personal challenge to make sure everyone was satisfied with his touches, and it was an easy job. We had a great group of guys who put the success of the team above any personal accomplishments, so tension was nearly non-existent.

[GMATCallahan]

Thanks, you just made my point for me. KJ had much better overall talent to help him in the earlier years than Stockton had, eventually by around 95-96, the Jazz finally started to have a talented overall team, and John had a better supporting cast. That was why I wanted to see the rest of the stats which Glove was so sneaky to hide.

Actually, that's not really true, at least not going by the respective success of the two teams.

Over two seasons in '96 and '97, the Jazz averaged 59.5 wins compared to 41.0 wins per year for the Suns, so the difference in support was overwhelmingly in Stockton's favor during that time. But over seven seasons from 1989-1995, Phoenix averaged 56.3 wins to Utah's 53.6 victories, so there wasn't a dramatic difference in the talent within the two organizations. In fact, in 1990, the Jazz won 55 games and the Suns won 54, and in 1991, the Suns won 55 games and the Jazz won 54, and in 1992, the Jazz won 55 games and the Suns won 53.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/

In 1990, the Jazz were the fourth seed in the Western Conference and the Suns were the fifth seed, and in 1991, the Suns were the fourth seed and the Jazz were the fifth seed. In other words, the teams were neck-and-neck, and it was K.J.'s domination of Stockton from 1989-1993 that seemed to put the Suns over the top in head-to-head competition.

Remember, in 1992, K.J.'s best teammate was Jeff Hornacek, whereas Stockton's best teammate was Karl Malone. And in K.J.'s first full season in Phoenix in '89, the Suns (who hadn't won more than 36 games since 1984) rocketed from 28 wins in '88 to 55 in '89. Adding Tom Chambers had something to do with that, but then again, Chambers later called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," and for good reason (see how Chambers' individual honors and statistics soared upon joining K.J., as I noted earlier in the thread, possibly on the previous page).

[Chalkmaze]

Actually, that's not really true, at least not going by the respective success of the two teams.

They won because John and Karl were that awesome, not because of the rest of the talent on the team. I'm talking about straight up natural, raw talent for the game. You are posting this stuff, like I didn't watch the games or something... It's just somebody else's printed opinions. But I watched every game live, I have my own opinion on the subject.



Remember, in 1992, K.J.'s best teammate was Jeff Hornacek, whereas Stockton's best teammate was Karl Malone. .

Did I not say, overall talent??? You had a prime Jeff Hornacek scoring 20 ppg, 51 fg% 44 3pt%, prime Dan Marjerle, with 17 ppg, Tom Chambers with 16 ppg, Tim Perry with 12 ppg, Mark West who was pretty good defender... plus KJ scored a lot, and the players that didn't score were hustle players. Phoenix had had more talent.

other than John & Karl, there was Jeff Malone 18 ppg and Tyrone Corbin 11.6 ppg... and Mark Eaton who was having back problems, and played limited minutes and games. The rest were quite unremarkable, but John got the most out of them, because he got everyone involved and set them up, based on their strengths.

[GMATCallahan]

What's this 89-93 bull?
You are being selective... why not compare KJ's whole career, at least up until 96-97??? Go ahead... let's see the truth. You show that KJ was better offensively, and the FG% was close enough to be a wash, Stockton dominated in Assists and steals, and like I said... John did more to help the player's around him besides assists.

You've helped prove that KJ was a bit of a ball hog, even though he had good efficiency... I wonder what percentage Stockton's team mates shot in comparison to KJ's also, because John would play the percentages as well as anyone ever has. So KJ might have shot 50% and John might have shot 50%, but KJ shoots 10 more shots a game at 50% where John might have chosen to get the ball to someone who could have thrown in inside to Malone, who's shooting 55%. Anyway, those are unexplained things that are noticed when you watch games versus look at stat sheets.

Johnson scored and did great and all... but he was always looking to score the whole game, and only when he didn't have a clear look did he pass it out. He held and dribbled the ball a lot, while looking to score, where John would be looking to run the offense. John was better at letting other people get involved, and it wasn't just measured in assists.

Now, I'm not knocking KJ exactly, not in the grand scheme of things... but when you say he dominated Stockton head to head, there are a lot of things not shown on the stat sheet that went on. Stockton's role was to get his team mates involved, to let them touch the ball and work it around, KJ was looking to score, and while his stats went up, a portion of his teammates stats went down some. Stockton also played a lot of help defense and things, and helped his team get buckets off of screens, got a lot of deflections that went to his team mates that didn't count as part of his steals etc.

I watched the games, and I remember people thinking John got smoked because KJ had 30 points or whatever, while John would have 15 points on the same night, but someone else on the team would usually make up the difference. KJ took more shots is what it boiled down to, John could have shot more and got more points, but he always felt it was important to get everyone involved. I don't know about you, but I hate to hustle my ass off, playing defense, and rebounding, and then have someone else hogging the ball all the time, I become a lot more interested in playing hard when I get to be involved offensively in some manner, and have guys setting picks for me, and it motivates me to be more involved on defense.

Different type players, and while I sometimes questioned KJ's scoring first mentality, he also used that threat to get his team mates shots, and you had to respect his speed, quickness, and shooting... He was a tough player indeed... But he was a shoot first type player, while Stockton was a pass first type player, and while KJ may have better scoring stats, Stockton had better stats in assists, steals, and getting his teammates involved, and even during KJ's prime, it was still a pretty even matchup in my eyes.

I wouldn't say that K.J. was a shoot-first player or a scoring-first point guard per se (forget about just the comparison to Stockton). Maybe your memories of K.J.'s scoring are more vivid because he was one of the most explosive players in NBA history, but he was actually very balanced. After all, just because he wasn't as pass-first as Stockton doesn't mean that he was obsessed with his scoring or a ball-hog. Consider the following career averages in field goal attempts from the following star point guards of that era.

Kevin Johnson: 12.5

Magic Johnson: 13.2

Gary Payton: 14.0

Tim Hardaway: 15.1

Isiah Thomas: 16.2

K.J.'s single-season highest FGA average was 15.7 (his only time at 15.0 or higher), and yet that was less than Thomas' career average. It's thus not surprising that Sam Cassell made the following statement in the April 2000 edition of SLAM (no.41), in an article titled "Being Sam Cassell," by Scoop Jackson, page 84:

I'm not a point guard. I'm not a point guard.

Gary Payton is not a point guard. Timmy Hardaway is not one. Stephon [Marbury], Allen , the list goes on and on. To me, we are [I]lead guards, we all have scoring mentalities. A point guard's main responsibility should be distribution first. Jason's [Kidd] greatest asset is his creativity with passing the ball and Stockton is the same way. Point guards are not supposed to draw attention to themselves by scoring. Oscar Robertson, to me, was not a point guard. He was a guard, a guard that could do it all. Nate Archibald, a point guard. Kevin Johnson, a point guard. Isiah Thomas, lead guard. Make sense?

And Cassell knew what he was talking about, because he was intimately familiar with K.J. In 1994 and 1995, Cassell faced K.J. in 14 total playoff games, to the point where he later offered the following statement about his NBA education.

"Everybody gets a lesson in the NBA," Cassell said of his matchup with [Steve] Francis. "I got mine from (former Phoenix point guard) Kevin Johnson."

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1999&b=19991102&tm=hou

And then Cassell played with K.J. in Phoenix early in the '96-'97 season, so he learned even more about him then.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1996&b=19961212&tm=uta

Referring to Cassell's classification of K.J. as a point guard rather than a lead guard, inside the Suns, people felt that K.J. was frequently too unselfish, that he spent too much time worrying about complementary players who weren't going to step up at crunch time, anyway. In Game One of the 1996 Western Conference First Round in San Antonio, K.J. posted 14 points on 5-8 (.625) field goal shooting and 4-4 (1.000) free throw shooting with 11 assists against just 2 turnovers.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAS19960426.html

But despite that efficient, downsized (Stockton-like, perhaps) performance, K.J. drew criticism from his coach, Cotton Fitzsimmons, after the Suns had lost by 22 points. Said Fitzsimmons after the game, "Kevin wants to get everyone involved, and we're down by 14. We don't need that."

(See Mike Tulumello's Breaking the Rules: A Season with Sport's Most Colorful Team: Charles Barkley's Phoenix Suns.)

http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Rules-Colorful-Charles-Barkleys/dp/1563522691/ref=sr_1_2/103-0546273-2771855?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185791525&sr=1-2

In Game Two, K.J. followed his coach's edict and looked to score more, posting 21 points while still managing to deliver 16 assists. The Suns lost again, but this time the game was competitive and hanging in the balance until the end.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAS19960428.html

In fact, throughout his career, K.J.'s coaches had to periodically remind him to be more aggressive and look to score more. I'll post some relevant articles, abstracts, and quotations shortly, with the pertinent portions in bold.

Again, for K.J. to not have taken advantage of his scoring skills (skills that, for all his greatness, Stockton simply did not posses to anything like Johnson's degree) would have been a mistake. You play the game to win, not to see who best fits certain ideals, but aside from Magic Johnson, perhaps no one in NBA history offered a better-balanced package of scoring and passing than K.J. As Alan Paul told K.J. in the February 2007 edition of SLAM (page 100), "People talk about scoring point guards versus pass-first ones, but you combined both, seemingly with ease."

Indeed, I disagree with the notion that K.J. was "always looking to score," or that he only passed when he didn't enjoy a clear look himself. If you think about lead guards or playmakers of that stripe, you look at guys in today's game such as Allen Iverson, Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, and Dwyane Wade, guards who average in the neighborhood of 6-8 assists. They're solid playmakers, but their limitations in that regard are fairly self-evident because of their nature as players. K.J., however, routinely finished in the range of 9-12 assists, and you can't do that if you only pass as a last option. K.J. was a dribble-playmaker, meaning that he looked to create plays and high-percentage shots off the dribble. "vcsgrizzfan," a Grizzlies fan from the ESPN NBA message board who actually started following basketball with the Buffalo Braves in the early 1970s, has written that aside from Magic Johnson, K.J. created more "good looks" than any point guard of his era (yes, that includes Stockton). And indeed, that ability of K.J.'s can be seen in the success that I previously documented of teammates such as Tom Chambers, Eddie Johnson, Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, Tim Perry, Andrew Lang (among others), and how those same teammates didn't necessarily achieve the same level of effectiveness elsewhere. When K.J. drove to the basket, he wasn't like Iverson, just looking to score and then pass at the last moment if he had no other choice. Instead, K.J. was seeing the whole floor and keeping all his options open based on how the defense responded, and that's what accounted for his enormous assist averages.

Remember, in that 14-game head-to-head stretch between K.J. and Stockton that I documented with box scores and aggregate statistics, Stockton did not dominate K.J. in assists and steals. In those 14 games, Stockton averaged 12.5 assists to K.J.'s 10.8 and 1.9 steals to K.J.'s 1.8. So, yeah, he held the edge, but K.J. was more than competing in those categories while blowing him out in the scoring department. Sometimes, K.J. could out-assist Stockton as well as out-score him, as in the following game from 1991 when K.J. recorded 37 points and 20 assists against Utah.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19910402.html

That was just one of the six career games where K.J. posted at least 20 points and 20 assists in the same contest, and here are the others.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/LAL19890226.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19890415.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19900321.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19900403.html

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1991&b=19920331&tm=phx

In Game Two of the 1992 Western Conference First Round versus San Antonio, K.J. recorded 24 points and 19 assists, and he went for 21-19 in the following 1996 game.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1995&b=19960419&tm=phx

You would have an argument if K.J.'s greater scoring wasn't helping his team. However, the Suns went 10-4 versus the Jazz during that stretch and K.J. was actually more efficient in shooting the ball, 52% to Stockton's 50% (again, see the aggregate statistics that I posted earlier). K.J. was almost matching Stockton in terms of successfully feeding teammates for baskets, and then scoring nearly twice as many points with slightly higher field goal and free throw percentages. Because he was so efficient and wasted so little time and action on the floor, he could score explosively while still involving and elevating his teammates. Remember, along with Stockton, Scott Skiles, Nate McMillan, and Jason Kidd, K.J. is one of the five players in NBA history to record at least 25 assists in one game.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1993&b=19940406&tm=PHO

[GMATCallahan]

As Hornacek noted, K.J. would feed his teammates the ball.

Question: Nash, Kidd, or KJ (in their prime)? Who would you choose & why?-- Ed, Phoenix

Jeff Hornacek: Oh, heck, I’d take all three of them. They all pass you the ball. I’d take any one of those guys. Three top draft picks, you can pick any of them and you’d be alright. You like the versatility of Steve and Kevin because they shoot the ball a little better than Jason does. There were times, even when Jason was playing here, I had talked to him on the phone a couple of time to tell he to shoot it a few more times. He really wanted to pass every time. Any of those guys, you’d just love to play with.

http://www.nba.com/suns/interactive/email_experts.html

Now, I don't think that K.J. was a greater player than Stockton in the scope of basketball history, but he did have more in his tool box. I invite you to check out Hakeem Olajuwon's 1996 autobiography, Living the Dream.

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Dream-My-Life-Basketball/dp/0316094277/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0546273-2771855?ie=UTF8&s=books&sr=1-1

Olajuwon went through both K.J.'s Suns and Stockton's Jazz in 1994 and again in 1995 on route to the championship both years, and he writes about both point guards in his book. Olajuwon compliments Stockton, but his praise is more matter-of-fact and somewhat dispassionate. But with K.J., you can see how pressured Olajuwon felt as a defensive center going up against a dominant point guard. Indeed, K.J.'s balance of scoring and passing off penetration could place the defense in a quandary. Referring to the first two games of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals, Olajuwon notes that K.J. would drive and every time the Dream would leave his man to protect the hoop, Johnson would dish off and Phoenix center Joe Kleine would hit the standing jumper. And then Olajuwon notes that if he stayed with Kleine, K.J. would penetrate all the way for a layup (either for himself or someone else). The Dream's conclusion? "Boy, how are we going to beat this Phoenix team?"

Ultimately, K.J. burned Olajuwon and the Rockets both ways in those first two games. Johnson averaged 25.0 points and 12.5 assists while Kleine shot a combined 10-13 (.769) from the field as the Suns won in two straight blowouts by an average of 23 points. Meanwhile, Phoenix forward A.C. Green, who had played with Magic Johnson for six years in L.A., scored a career-playoff high 25 points in Game One (Green is another player, by the way, who set a personal career-high in points per game as soon as he joined K.J., with 14.7 in 1994 after never having averaged over 13.6).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenac01.html

Game Two, meanwhile, showed how K.J. would modulate his game based on the situation. In the first half, he posted 14 points and 10 assists to help the Suns open up a huge lead. Then in the second half, he went for the kill with 15 points and 2 assists, finishing with game totals of 29 points and 12 assists in the Suns' 118-94 victory.

[GMATCallahan]

They won because John and Karl were that awesome, not because of the rest of the talent on the team. I'm talking about straight up natural, raw talent for the game.

The Jazz' distribution of talent was a little more top-heavy than the Suns', but in terms of the overall amount, it was similar, hence the similar records. Would you not admit that Karl Malone was ultimately a far superior player to any of K.J.'s pre-Barkley teammates, even Tom Chambers? And don't sleep on the talent of guys like Thurl Bailey, Jeff Malone (a five-time 20-point scorer and a two-time All-Star before he ever played with Stockton, and one of the purest jump-shooters of his era), and Mark Eaton, a two-time Defensive Player of the Year who led the NBA in blocked shots per game four times and finished second in two other seasons.

The reason why the Suns were so successful against the Jazz during those years was that K.J., normally a 20-21-point scorer, averaged 30-31 against Stockton while shooting as efficiently as ever and maintaining his customary assists averages in the 10-11 range.


You are posting this stuff, like I didn't watch the games or something... It's just somebody else's printed opinions. But I watched every game live, I have my own opinion on the subject.

I know, but memories can be foggy or selective. Anyway, my point was just to reveal that there are other opinions and perspectives, so don't take it personally.


Did I not say, overall talent??? You had a prime Jeff Hornacek scoring 20 ppg, 51 fg% 44 3pt%, prime Dan Marjerle, with 17 ppg, Tom Chambers with 16 ppg, Tim Perry with 12 ppg, Mark West who was pretty good defender... plus KJ scored a lot, and the players that didn't score were hustle players. Phoenix had had more talent.

other than John & Karl, there was Jeff Malone 18 ppg and Tyrone Corbin 11.6 ppg... and Mark Eaton who was having back problems, and played limited minutes and games. The rest were quite unremarkable, but John got the most out of them, because he got everyone involved and set them up, based on their strengths.

You act as if K.J. had nothing to do with how well those Phoenix teammates performed. Did you read my earlier posts in which I quoted Chambers and Hornacek, or showed what happened to Chambers' statistics and accomplishments after he joined K.J., or what occurred to Majerle's numbers after he left K.J., or what happened to the field goal percentages of Hornacek, Perry, and Andrew Lang after they left K.J. and joined Philadelphia? You say that Stockton, with regard to his teammates, "got the most out of them, because he got everyone involved and set them up, based on their strengths," and he did, but K.J. did the same. Just because he wasn't quite as "pure" of a point guard didn't mean that he failed to fulfill a similar function. Again, I've explained all these points with well-documented statistics and quotations, so go back and read those posts. See the one where Clyde Drexler says that as far he's concerned, K.J. might as well have scored Perry's 27 points in a 1992 playoff game versus Portland, and see what happened to Perry's career after he left K.J. In four years with Johnson, Perry shot .524 from the field (never lower than .513), but in four years after K.J. (the last four of his NBA career), he shot .446. K.J. made Perry seem like a legitimate and attractive starting NBA power forward when it turned out that in terms of raw talent, he was a fringe player at best (although you don't seem to want to acknowledge that point). K.J. did virtually the same for his teammates as Stockton did for his Jazz mates.

A similar example is Andrew Lang. In four years with K.J., Lang shot a combined .538 from the field (never lower than .522), but in his first year with Philadelphia, he dropped like a rock, all the way to .425. Because of his shot-blocking skills, Lang managed to play eight more NBA seasons after leaving K.J., but he never again shot higher than .473 from the field, and overall without K.J., he shot just .447, almost the exact same percentage as Perry without K.J. In other words, K.J. was able to take natural sub-45% field goal shooters and turn them into guys who shot 52-54% from the field. He got everything out of them that there was to get, and possibly more than anyone else ever could have gotten.

The irony is that when the Sixers received Hornacek, Perry, and Lang from Phoenix in exchange for Barkley, many thought that they'd received quite a load of talent, three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field. Indeed, some also thought that the Suns had surrendered too much talent. However, Perry and Lang were not nearly as effective away from K.J., and even Hornacek saw his field goal percentage fall from .512 in '92 with K.J. to .470 in Philadelphia in '93. Give K.J. credit for his ability to involve and elevate his teammates.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/perryti01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/langan01.html

[GMATCallahan]

Also, as for Stockton setting better screens than K.J., that may have been true, but many felt that Stockton (like Malone) was a dirty player who turned his elbows into dangerous weapons. I suppose that K.J. could have also set superior screens had he been willing to play illegally ... :)

Stockton came up with more steals, but K.J. was the superior man-to-man defender.

[GMATCallahan]

Suns Find a Forum to Show That They Have Come of Age; [Home Edition]
RANDY HARVEY. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 16, 1990. pg. 6

Cotton Fitzsimmons was not the NBA's coach of the year in 1990. He won that last year, when his team went to the Western Conference finals before losing to the Lakers in four straight games.

This year is better. His Phoenix Suns beat the team that is coached by the coach of the year in the Western Conference semifinals.

To do that, they beat the Lakers twice at the Forum, including Tuesday night's 106-103 victory to end the best-of-seven series in five games.

Before Game 1, the Suns had not beaten the Lakers at the Forum since 1984. It had been even longer since Fitzsimmons had won a game at the Forum.

"I believe it was right after Lincoln was assassinated," he said Tuesday night. Actually, it was 1974.

Fitzsimmons knew all along that this is the way the Suns would have to do it if they were to contend for the NBA championships, by winning at the Forum.

"Every time it seemed like the Phoenix Suns were going somewhere in the past, it was the Los Angeles Lakers who were in their way," he said. "I said when the season started that if anybody is going to the finals from the Western Conference besides Los Angeles, they're going to have to drive the team bus right through the Forum."

The bus driver was surprisingly low-key but characteristically gracious after one of the most satisfying victories of his 17-year NBA coaching career.

Like his team, he maintained his composure.

It must be a comfort to the young Suns when they look to the bench in a spot like they were in after one quarter Tuesday night and see that their coach looks as if he has just gotten up from a nap.

Now, we can start the game, he must have told them.

It was as apparent to him as to everyone else in this series that the Lakers had no knockout punch.

"They came out and gave us all they had," Fitzsimmons said of the Lakers, who had a 15-point lead entering the second quarter. "They kept coming and coming. But we kept our composure. My team never gave up. We kept clawing and scratching."

He later called the Suns his "little bitty guys."

He stood behind the comment he made before the series began that his team was a 100-1 shot to beat the Lakers.

But he didn't believe it.

"Last year, I was very proud of my team," he said. "We won 55 games after winning only 28 the year before. The Lakers beat us four straight (in the playoffs), but some people forget the fact that the games were tough. Whatever they needed at the end of those games, Magic took. Ya'll wrote that they swept right through us.

"I didn't buy it. I thought we were close. I didn't think we were this close."

Kevin Johnson is the player that Isiah Thomas is supposed to be, the real Pocket Magic. He even has the right last name.

There is no doubting him now. After he played less than his best in the first two games, the Suns' coaches told him that he was thinking too much, that he was taking only what the Lakers gave him. They told him to take what he wanted.

He was the second-best Johnson on the court Tuesday night, but not by much. While the Lakers' Magic scored 43 points and had seven assists, the Suns' Kevin had 37 points and eight assists.

It didn't matter who the Lakers put in front of him, Byron Scott, Larry Drew or Michael Cooper, none could prevent Kevin Johnson from driving into the lane and creating a basket.

He also doesn't back down. The Lakers' 7-1 center, Vlade Divac, threw the ball at Kevin Johnson early in the game. Johnson later paid Divac back with a forearm to the Adam's apple.

"We had a good ballclub last year, and we improved it in December when we added Kurt Rambis to the ballclub," Fitzsimmons said. "He taught us how to win."

That's something Rambis should know after spending so many years with the Lakers. Not even one year with the Charlotte Hornets could make him forget it.

"I thought I'd finish my career in Charlotte," said Rambis, who joined the Hornets last year as a free agent. "I figured I'd played my last playoff game.

"It's a thrill just to be back in the playoffs. To beat the Lakers is unbelievable."

About that time, Magic Johnson entered the Suns' dressing room, headed straight for Rambis and wrapped him in a bear hug.

That broke up Rambis for a moment. He lost his train of thought until he was asked if the Suns' victory represented a changing of the guard.

"We haven't done anything yet," he said. "As far as I'm concerned, you can't count the Lakers out of anything as long as Earvin Johnson is around."

Except for this year's playoffs.

[GMATCallahan]

Johnson Is Shining Bright for Suns; [Bulldog Edition]
BILL BARNARD. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 12, 1989. pg. 4

Kevin Johnson is making Phoenix forget that the Suns traded Larry Nance to Cleveland.

Never mind that Kevin Johnson isn't even the best point guard named Johnson in the NBA.

Never mind that Nance is a two-time All-Star, including this season for the Cavaliers, who have the best record in the league.

Never mind that Nance, who turned 30 last month, lends the hand of experience to a team that barely made the playoffs last season.

What should be remembered is that Kevin Johnson, who just turned 23 a week ago, already is among the best point guards in the NBA and may be the quickest.

Last year's trade that brought Johnson to the Suns and sent Nance to Cleveland is being hailed as the best of all possible deals-one that improved both teams.

"The Cavaliers have been outstanding; they have moved up to another level," Suns Coach Cotton Fitzsimmons said. "The Suns have done that, too. We're 16 games over .500 after missing the playoffs three straight seasons.

"This deal benefitted both teams."

"It was one of the greatest trades of all time," Johnson says. "They have the best record in the East and we have the second-best record in the West, and both teams are happy."

Johnson came to New York last week with the city's newspapers full of praise for the quickness of rookie Rod Strickland, who had 20 points and 14 assists against Chicago in his first start in relief of injured All-Star Mark Jackson.

Although Phoenix lost to the Knicks, Johnson had 31 points and 11 assists and ran circles around Strickland.

Here was Knicks coach Rick Pitino after Strickland finished with six assists and as many fouls as points against the Suns:

"Rod Strickland is quick, but Kevin Johnson is lightning."

Johnson is averaging 19.4 points and is third in the league in assists with 12.1 per game, trailing only John Stockton and Magic Johnson.

And those numbers have been going up. In February, when he was the NBA's Player of the Month, he averaged 24.5 points and 13 assists.

Unquestionably, Nance has been valuable to the Cavaliers, but Johnson filled a historical gap at point guard for the Suns.

He set the Suns' single-game record with 21 assists on Feb. 26 and broke Jay Humphries' single-season assist mark after just 53 games. While Johnson is averaging more than 12 assists, no previous Suns player has ever averaged as many as eight.

Johnson's outstanding performance in February was no accident.

Although he didn't make a scene about it, he admitted he was disappointed at not making the All-Star team, especially after Magic Johnson was injured.

"Anytime things don't go your way, you have to make it work for you," Johnson said.

In the three games just preceding the All-Star break, Johnson had 35 points and 13 assists, 19 points and 12 assists and 34 points and 18 assists.

But Johnson went into the season with far fewer expectations than Fitzsimmons.

"I expected a lot of Kevin," the coach said. "Going into the season, I wasn't concerned about him being too young. No one has more speed or quickness than he does. No one has a bigger heart."

"He told me that a lot, and I started to believe him," Johnson said. "I thought it would come more gradually for me. But he gave me confidence in myself."

Some NBA point guards with the talent to score are reined in by their coaches for the good of the team. Chuck Daly at Detroit believes the Pistons can't win with Isiah Thomas scoring more than he does, for example.

Not so Fitzsimmons.

"Coach wants his point guards to score a lot," Johnson said. "I try to keep the ball distributed well, but we play such a fast-tempo game that I can keep everyone involved and still score myself."

Phoenix is the only team in the NBA with four players who have scored 40 points in a game this season - Johnson, Armon Gilliam, Tom Chambers and Eddie Johnson. A fifth Suns player, Jeff Hornacek, has a season high of 32.

"He knows how to get people fired up," Suns assistant Paul Westphal said. "For a second-year player, it's unbelievable that he's come in and done so well. He's our offense."

At age 23, Kevin Johnson is also the Suns' future.

***
... My Comment:

And of course, K.J. shooting more was different than Thomas shooting more, because K.J. hit a significantly higher percentage of his shots, even while Isiah was in the run-and-gun earlier in the decade.

[GMATCallahan]

K.J. Just Doing What He's Told
Vecsey, Peter. USA TODAY. McLean, Va.: Mar 5, 1992. pg. C4

Abstract (Summary)

Peter Vecsey says that Phoenix Suns coach Cotton Fitzsimmons is the reason Kevin Johnson has been playing more aggressively.

***

... My Comment:

In the seven games before Fitzsimmons told K.J. to play more aggressively (after the game of February 17, 1992), he'd averaged 16.7 points and 12.4 assists, shooting .467 from the field (12.9 FGA) and .846 from the free throw line (5.8 FTA). The Suns went 4-3 (.571) during that stretch.

In the eight games after Fitzsimmons told K.J. to play more aggressively (starting on February 18, 1992), he averaged 29.1 points and 12.6 assists, shooting .527 from the field (18.5 FGA) and .881 from the free throw line (10.5 FTA). The Suns went 6-2 (.750) during that stretch.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/gl.cgi?player=johnske02&year=1992

Again, K.J.'s scoring ability was a weapon that his coaches sought to take advantage of, but he could utilize it while still creating all sorts of plays for his teammates (because of his efficiency and how quickly he could create shots). Here are some comments from his next head coach, Paul Westphal, and teammate Danny Ainge early in the '93-'94 season, from a feature titled "Quicksilver: When he's healthy, Kevin Johnson is nearly unstoppable," by Jim Brewer.

So far in 1993-94, his spot has seemed to be anytime he has trotted onto the court. Hitting jumpers, driving past defenders for dunks, penetrating and dishing off to open teammates - Johnson's aggressiveness on offense is a welcome sight to the Suns.

"We want him to score and be aggressive on offense," Westphal said. "With him hitting, it's hard to know which direction we are going to be coming from."

"Kevin's our leader," Ainge said. "When his defense is great and he puts up numbers, he makes it very difficult for other teams to stop us. He's been very aggressive offensively and that makes us better."

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/00382496.html

So, really, you can't blame K.J. for doing what his coaches and teammates wanted from him. At the same time, he was still able to create for those teammates.

[GMATCallahan]

Now Lakers Need to Three-Peat Game 4: Magic scores playoff-best 43 points, but his teammates falter as balanced Sun attack prevails, 114-101. Lakers must win Tuesday at the Forum.; [Home Edition]
SAM McMANIS. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 14, 1990. pg. 1

All of Magic Johnson's hook shots, all of his twisting drives and set shots, every single one of his 43 points could not prevent the Lakers from another loss to the Phoenix Suns Sunday in Game 4 of the Western Conference semifinals.

The Lakers, during their championship run, had always said they were more than merely a one-man team. But their 114-101 loss to the Suns, which puts them one loss from elimination, failed to justify that boast as never before.

Johnson was superb Sunday in his highest scoring playoff game ever, eclipsing his 42-point performance in Game 6 of the 1980 NBA finals against Philadelphia. He made 15 of 26 shots, all 12 free throws and took only a three-minute rest in the first half.

But Johnson was all the Lakers had against a balanced Sun attack and, as a result, the Lakers trail, three games to one, going into Game 5 Tuesday at the Forum. Only four teams have ever recovered from such a deficit, one being the 1970 Lakers, who won three in a row from the Suns.

Unless his teammates give Johnson some offensive help, the Lakers will be as helpless as they were in losing Game 3 by 14 points and Game 4 by 13.

"You never want to go out and try to score, like, 43 points, but in this situation, I had to," Johnson said. "My role is usually 20 points and 16 assists. But the other guys got to come on now. Hopefully, we'll get some other people playing better, so I won't have to do so much work."

James Worthy, who had been the most consistent Laker in the playoff fortnight, had his first bad game. He made five of 21 shots for 16 points, while main adversary Tom Chambers responded with 27 points.

But perhaps hurting the Lakers most is the disappearance of guard Byron Scott from the offense. Scott, perhaps preoccupied with trying to control Sun point guard Kevin Johnson, made two of eight shots for four points. He had eight points in Game 3, and has made only 46% of his shots for the series. Scott is not the only under-productive Laker. The center tandem of Mychal Thompson and Vlade Divac, which combined for five points in Game 3, combined for seven Sunday. So ineffective were the Laker big men that Coach Pat Riley started the second half without a center. Aside from Johnson, the Lakers made 20 of 60 field goal attempts.

"We got to have more people involved," Magic said. "More than just me and James. For three games, you are trying to ride everybody and get them involved and trying to get your own game going. Today, I just had to do something. I don't know which role I'm going to have to do Tuesday. Hopefully, it'll be different."

Whereas the Lakers' offense relied on increasingly predictable isolation plays to Johnson, the Suns' offense was like the Lakers' used to be. They ran often and well, moved the ball briskly in their half-court offense and got nearly every player involved. No player was more effective than Kevin Johnson, who had 17 of his 30 points in the second half and was able penetrate and pass to open teammates. Chambers, who made 10 of 21 shots, was the recipient of many of Johnson's 16 assists.

Guard Jeff Hornacek, who had a career playoff-high 29 points in Game 3, scored 16 of his 23 in the first quarter, when the Suns rolled to a 36-22 lead. Hornacek made his first six shots in the first quarter, then missed his final seven shots.

When Hornacek turned cold, the Suns turned to alternative sources. Center Mark West, lightly regarded by the Lakers before this series, dominated once again. West had 15 points and 15 rebounds, blocked six shots and altered the flight of many other Laker attempts. "We had to take the ball to the basket," Sun Coach Cotton Fitzsimmons said. "If you don't take it to the basket, then you're not going to win."

Unfortunately for Los Angeles, Johnson was the only Laker who could forge past West and find room to shoot. Worthy's inside game was stifled, and forward A.C. Green's 14 points and 18 rebounds could not make much of a difference.

"A lot of it has to do with our execution," Worthy said. "And the shots we are getting aren't falling. We have to look more for our second and third options, and they've got to hit (the shots)."

Scott is not scoring, and Johnson says he does not know why. Riley suggested that having to defend Kevin Johnson has been too much for Scott. Magic doesn't think so. "There's no excuse," Magic said. "He just has to start shooting the ball well. What else do you want me to say? We all saw the game. It's just not dropping for him. It may be because of that (guarding Kevin Johnson), but I hope it's not that. He's got to guard him again Tuesday."

Said Scott of his poor shooting: "I have no idea, I don't know why. I'm just exerting a lot of energy on defense on Kevin Johnson. I don't know if I'm taking myself out of the offense. I don't think all the burden of the loss should be on me. I don't think it's just one guy not scoring. We just have to have a better collective group of guys playing harder."

Lack of effort, even when the Suns took a 36-22 first-quarter lead, was not the Lakers' problem. The Suns made 13 of 17 shots and, although they cooled in the second quarter, their lead dipped below 10 only briefly before they opened a 60-48 lead in the second half. The Lakers' dependency on Magic Johnson to the exclusion of others was most apparent with six minutes to play in the second quarter. To that point, Johnson had scored 11 consecutive Laker points. He had made nine of 12 shots. The rest of the Lakers had made five of 20. When Riley went to a small lineup at the start of the second half, Thompson was replaced by Michael Cooper, essentially making Green the center.

The smaller lineup created a few mismatches for the Suns, but Fitzsimmons stayed with West as the last line of defense inside. With Johnson accounting for 14 of their 31 third-quarter points, the Lakers pulled to 84-79 entering the fourth quarter.

But the closest the Lakers could get was 94-90 with 4:39 left. From that point, the Suns outscored the Lakers, 20-11.

After the Lakers pulled to within four, Kevin Johnson converted a three-point play after making a driving basket. The Lakers' last real chance was thwarted when Scott missed an open jumper from the right wing, and Chambers scored off the miss for a 99-90 lead. Then, Magic Johnson and Worthy failed to connect on a pass and Majerle made a fast-break layup for an 11-point lead.

"Kevin and Tom really hit some big baskets for us when the Lakers cut it to four or five," Hornacek said. "I think these last two games really gave us a glimpse of what we're capable of doing."

All it has done for the Lakers is expose the inadequacies that a 63-victory regular-season must have masked.

Laker Notes

Laker rookie Vlade Divac had played well in the Houston series and in the first two games against Phoenix, but has failed to make much of an impact in the last two games. Divac had three points and four rebounds while playing 17 minutes in Game 3 and two points and three rebounds in seven minutes of Game 4. "He hasn't been playing well these last two games," Magic Johnson said. "We've been trying to get him involved." Mychal Thompson played only six minutes in the second half of Game 4. Said Coach Pat Riley of his strategy: "It's been sporadic play from our big guys. I couldn't wait. We were down. We had to go with our quick lineup. They got us back in the game with a chance to win."

The Lakers weren't conceding the series. "The pressure is on us to win, it's cut and dried," Johnson said. "Either we come out and do it, or they'll bury us. You never really think you might be here, but it's reality. You've got to deal with it." Added Michael Cooper: "I think beads of sweat are starting to fall down my forehead. . . . I know we can come back. I still have a lot of confidence in what this team can do."

In addition to reaching his playoff high for points, Johnson had his playoff career high for field goals (15) and field goals attempts (26). . . . The Lakers returned to Los Angeles about an hour after Sunday's game and will practice at the Forum this morning.

[Illustration]
PHOTO: COLOR, James Worthy suffers on the bench in the midst of a five-for-21 shooting performance Sunday. / JAYNE KAMIN-ONCEA / Los Angeles Times; PHOTO: Magic Johnson scored a career playoff-best 43 points Sunday. Here he drives past Kevin Johnson of the Suns in the second half. / JAYNE KAMIN-ONCEA / Los Angeles Times; PHOTO: (Southland Edition) Laker James Worthy pursues ball along with Dan Majerle and Jeff Hornacek (far right) of Phoenix Suns. / Associated Press; PHOTO: Suns Set on Lakers: The Phoenix Suns took a 3-1 lead in their NBA playoff series with the Lakers, winning 114-101. Suns' Kurt Rambis, above, stole the ball from Lakers' Orlando Woolridge.

[GMATCallahan]

This Time, Suns Don't Slacken Pace Western Conference: After wasting 22-point lead in Game 2 loss at Portland, they take a 46-point lead and cruise at Phoenix, 123-89.; [Home Edition]
SAM McMANIS. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 26, 1990. pg. 1

It would not happen again, or so the Phoenix Suns hoped. Another 22-point lead against the Portland Trail Blazers, this time by the end of the first quarter here Friday night, would not be lost.

It turns out they didn't have to hold that lead.

No, it grew to 28 by halftime, then 30, then 40 before finally hitting a high mark of 46 points late in the third quarter of a 123-89 victory over the Trail Blazers in Game 3 of the Western Conference finals.

Two days ago, the concern was whether the Suns could recover after wasting a 22-point lead and losing Game 2 in Portland. Now, the question is whether the Trail Blazers will be the demoralized team.

Portland leads the series, two games to one, with Game 4 here Sunday. But the Suns may be in control.

"Everybody knew what happened the other night," Sun guard Jeff Hornacek said. "That was a good lesson for us never, never to let up. But that happens to teams in the playoffs. You lose leads."

This blowout, which must have reminded Trail Blazer forward Buck Williams of his days as a New Jersey Net, was not a record. But only because Sun Coach Cotton Fitzsimmons cleared the bench in the fourth quarter.

Phoenix, which made 61% of its shots, fell short of a franchise playoff record for margin of victory. The Suns beat the Golden State Warriors by 37 points last season.

The Suns' starters made a combined 35 of 42 shots (83.3%). Tom Chambers had 24 points, guards Hornacek and Kevin Johnson had 17 each and power forward Kurt Rambis got 14 on six-for-six shooting. Center Mark West scored eight of his nine points in the first quarter.

"We wanted to play every single quarter like it was 0-0," Kevin Johnson said.

Fitzsimmons was asked if he had ever seen his starters make 83% of their shots in a game before.

"I probably have been involved in a game like that, but it had to be in junior college where nobody ever plays defense," Fitzsimmons said.

Fitzsimmons wanted it known he was not comparing the Trail Blazers to a junior college team or knocking Portland's defensive effort.

But the Trail Blazers knocked themselves.

"We just played horribly," said Clyde Drexler, who made only five of 14 shots. "We know we're a better team than that."

But, on the road in their last two playoff series, the Trail Blazers have resembled the Sacramento Kings in February, folding at the first hint of a deficit. In their last four road playoff games, the Trail Blazers have lost by an average of 20.4 points.

"We didn't play well offensively-that was our biggest breakdown," said Trail Blazer guard Terry Porter, who made two of eight shots and had six points.

"Our offense made their offense look great because we missed so many shots we got their break going."

The Suns took a we-told-you-so attitude about not letting down after Game 2.

"You hear all kinds of things after our game up there," Hornacek said of Game 2.

"People said we were doubting ourselves. But, as players, you just go out and play the game. You don't worry about the last one."

Instead, the Suns made strategic adjustments. Fitzsimmons said the key was a multifaceted offense.

That was evident in the first four minutes, when the Suns took an 18-4 lead. West scored inside, Chambers made a jump shot, Kevin Johnson made free throws after driving, Rambis scored inside and Chambers scored twice off fast breaks.

"I thought we had them both games up there," said Chambers, who made 11 of 13 shots in only 26 minutes.

"But we allowed them to come back. Tonight, we did not allow that."

Just as Fitzsimmons scoffed at the notion his Suns would fold after the Game 2 loss, Portland Coach Rick Adelman vowed his team would not wilt, despite making 36.3% of their shots and playing only token defense.

"They dominated the game in every way," Adelman said. "But I don't care how many points you get beat by. The series is still 2-1, with us ahead."

Friday, that was the only statistic the Trail Blazers could embrace.

Western Conference Notes

Sun guard Eddie Johnson has renewed his vow of silence for the third consecutive playoff series. But Johnson has done so much explaining about why he is not talking with the media it might be easier for him to answer questions. "You guys are going to write whatever you're going to anyway, whether I talk or not," Johnson told reporters. "I have my job to do. I need to concentrate." . . . Before Friday night's game, Sun forward Tom Chambers had an 0-10 record in Western Conference finals. Chambers was a member of the 1986-87 Seattle SuperSonics that lost four consecutive games to the Lakers. He was with the Suns last season, when they lost four in a row to the Lakers. And the Suns lost the first two games of this series.

[Illustration]
PHOTO: The Phoenix Suns' Mark West scores over the Portland Trail Blazers' Kevin Duckworth Friday night. Suns defeated Trail Blazers, 123-89. / Associated Press

[GMATCallahan]

You got to at least respect what gmat says. he provides sources and makes everything he says credible. most of the time posters here just make things up as they go. also so the way he says everything really makes you listen as well. but yeah, at least he has sources backing up what he says, that makes what he says legit and credible

Thanks.

[GMATCallahan]

He Overcomes Initial Futility; [Home Edition]
MIKE DOWNEY. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 13, 1990. pg. 1

Well, I don't think there's any way Phoenix can blow this series now, is there?

Who in his right mind wouldn't side with the Suns after what they did to the Lakers here Saturday?

I think these guys are a lock to win the NBA championship, and probably many more to come.

Having heard an earful from aggravated Arizonans-before, during and after the 117-103 Laker loss-I would have to agree with them that the 1989-90 Phoenix Suns are the most magnificent basketball team ever assembled, not only in the history of the NBA, but since the dawn of mankind.

They couldn't possibly choke now.

Wow, what a ball team this is! I could hardly believe how good Phoenix looked, although my seat in Veterans Memorial Coliseum was up pretty high, and I had trouble seeing the game through all those championship banners hanging from the ceiling.

What I did see was impressive. These Suns can play, and I will take issue with any California airhead who says they cannot.

For starters, there is Tom Chambers, who lit up the Lakers for 34 points. Or "T.C.," as the Suns' radio guy calls him.

(He also calls Kevin Johnson "K.J." and Eddie Johnson "E.J.," which makes me wonder if he also calls the President of the United States "G.B." and makes me happy that he doesn't regularly broadcast the games of Vlade Divac or Byron Scott.)

Chambers turned the Lakers every which way but loose. He made left-handed lay-ups and running left hooks. He swished right-handed three-pointers and rattled home twisting back-door dunks. He faked out J.W. and M.T. and E. (M.) J. and A.C.G. and every other Laker he encountered.

"I was stronger inside today than I had been in a long time," Chambers said.

Sure was. In Game 2, the Suns used underarm deodorants that were stronger and more effective than T.C. He got four baskets all night, and pulled down one more rebound than a dead man.

In Game 3, however, Chambers was one gun of a Sun who started out hot and got hotter. He also played the whole game with a smile on his face, even on the free-throw line. I guess if Michael Jordan can stick his tongue out, Tom Chambers can bare his teeth.

"We needed a win and I hadn't been playing well," Chambers said. "Kevin (Johnson) and I are All-Stars, and the last two games you couldn't have picked us out of a crowd in a million years."

Now, now, T.C. Don't be too tough on yourself. People here don't like it when anyone is critical of the Phoenix Suns, even a Phoenix Sun.

"Tom's a great player," Laker Coach Pat Riley said. "He was hitting his jumpers and he was making his drives."

As opposed to Jeff Hornacek, who was making his jumpers and hitting his drives.

Hornacek scored 29 points. In Games 1 and 2, he scored a total of 30. He was so ordinary in those two contests, that the announcer wouldn't even use his initials. I think the Lakers should try returning to a dependable old tactic against Hornacek in Game 4-like guarding him.

For a half, the Lakers were OK. "Very efficient," to use Riley's description.

They even pulled out the old Michael Cooper Catches Rebound, Falls Down and Shoots Horizontal trick, which never fails when you're trying to snap out of a one-for-19 shooting slump.

By the end, however, it was Phoenix that was pulling tricks out of its bag. Kevin Johnson even did the old Harlem Globetrotter free-throw bit, pretending to shoot the ball, then hanging onto it while those gullible Lakers lunged into the lane.

Did it seem to everybody back in California watching television that the Suns scored every trip down the floor? Seemed that way here, too. If I had known that the Suns never missed their shots when they played at home, I'd have picked them to win the NBA even sooner.

Between them, Mark West, Kurt Rambis, Dan Majerle, Eddie Johnson and Kenny Battle missed a total of four shots. Three of those guys don't even start. That's how great this unbelievably fabulous, undeniably wonderful, probably unbeatable Phoenix Sun team is.

Know how many points Phoenix's starters scored Saturday? 101.

The entire Laker squad scored 103. And that counted Cooper's goofy hoop.

"We epitomized what team basketball is all about," Kevin Johnson said.

That's Phoenix for you. It epitomizes team basketball. When Americans think of team basketball, then by God, they think of the Phoenix Suns.

Aw, shucks, Coach Cotton Fitzsimmons said. "We haven't accomplished anything yet. You have to brace for the Lakers every day, every hour and every minute. We haven't done anything yet."

No. Really? Go on. Be serious.

[GMATCallahan]

1. Yeah and whats wrong with talking it to the hoop to get a high FG%. That still makes you a better scorer...I'd rather have a player that takes it to the hoop and puts the same amount of points on a higher FG% than low FG% with same points becaue of jump shot...

Bottom line, takiing it to the hoop, and getting a better FG%, is better and more effective than what Greer has done on the scoring end, and the numbers prove it.



2. I think you haven't mentioned it yet, or acknowledged it, but Kevin Johnson also is an excellent shooter. Not only did you have to stop him from penetrating and creating offense, you also had to watch out for his mid-range jumper.

Here are some quotes GMAT posted....

"The fact that he can shoot and drive presents a problem, You can't play him just one way. You can't say, `I'll play him back and make him shoot the jumper,' because that's what he likes to do. You've got to get up on him and play him as tough as possible."

-Byron Scott



Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter.

-Sports Article (NY Times) in 1989


Many players and coaches believe Kevin Johnson is the quickest player in the league, especially off the dribble. His uncanny ability to penetrate puts constant pressure on opposing defenses, and Johnson has also become an excellent outside shooter

-Same article (NY Times) in 1989





Bottom line, not only was he really quick, he could also shoot that mid-range jumper.

He was a better scorer than Hal Greer.

More on K.J.'s jump-shooting ...

Johnson Too Much for Clippers; Pro basketball: Guard has 33 points and 15 assists as Phoenix avoids season sweep with 103-92 victory.; [Home Edition]
Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 25, 1996. pg. 4

The Clippers find it easier to beat the Phoenix Suns when Kevin Johnson isn't around.

Johnson ran past, around and through the Clippers for 33 points and 15 assists, scoring 15 in a big first quarter that carried the Suns to a 103-92 victory over the Clippers on Sunday.

The victory allowed the Suns to avoid the indignity of being swept in the season series by the Clippers.

In two of the first three matchups, the oft-injured Johnson sat out. And in the Suns' season-opening, 112-106 loss to the Clippers, Johnson did all he could with a season-high 39 points.

"Some players are really quick, but can't shoot. Some guys can shoot real well, but can't get around you," Clipper guard Terry Dehere said. "But KJ has the total package and he showed it tonight."

Charles Barkley added 21 points and 14 rebounds as the Suns reached the .500 mark for the 10th time (34-34) this season. Dehere had 17 points and Rodney Rogers 16 for the Clippers, who shaved a 20-point Sun lead to 95-87 on Loy Vaught's jump shot with 2:32 to play.

But Johnson made a 17-foot jump shot 22 seconds later and followed with two free throws to put the game out of reach.

"We're really trying to get over this hump before the playoffs come around, so we're pressing a little bit. But I think that's good," said Johnson, who is averaging 21 points and 10.2 assists in March. "We're playing with a little more sense of urgency."

Michael Finley had 11 points and John Williams and A.C. Green had 10 each for the Suns, who took the lead for good with a 17-0 run late in the first quarter.

Vaught had 14 points and eight rebounds for the Clippers, who never recovered after missing 11 of their first 12 shots.

The Clippers trailed by only one point, 10-9, when Malik Sealy made a 14-footer with 5:08 to play in the first quarter, but Johnson scored five points and dished out three assists over the next 3:44, with two free throws by Barkley capping the run for a 29-12 lead.

Credit: From Associated Press

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1995&b=19960324&tm=PHO

[GMATCallahan]

Thing with this is every player from 35 and down has some flaw that keeps them that low. Something someone good with words who knows not to come off too crazy or aggressive could point out. For examples...Dave Cowens, bob Mcadoo, Pistol Pete, and Nique. Those are guys people might argue for in this range.

Cowens was arguably not the best player on his own team even as MVP. Hondo had insane numbers and got the love at the time from Boston. And Jojo White got him for a finals MVP too. Added to that he only had 5 healthy all star seasons.

Mcadoo had a brief prime and was a role player(important one but still) by the time he won anything important.

Pistol Pete never won anything period.

Nique would be called just a scorer who never led a team as close to a title as KJ and never beat a team as good as the showtime lakers KJ beat.


All of that is true. The guys outside the elite are there for a reason. They were great....but didnt do anything to seperate themselves like the true all time elites did.

Because of it they dont have much one can use to dismiss a guy like KJ who was well rounded, with great numbers, and won a good bit(for a non all time elite).

But to put him that high you have to go against a lot of the usual standards people rank players by. Have to dismiss MVPs....titles...guys who had crazy high peaks but got hurt...innovators...all nba teams...reputation.

KJ did juuuuuuuust enough to earn mention in that long list that comes after 30 but before 100 but to put him closer to 30 than 100 takes a lot of work and a strong desire to put him as high as possible with no concern for the greatness or respect owed to a lot of legends.

Its easier to say "KJ is top 30-40" than to explain "If hes top 30-40 how come Tim Hardaway/Mark Price/Chris Mullin arent when they were considered on the same level in their primes?"

Its the biggest problem with ranking modern(even kinda modern) players so high. There are always guys we remember who were considered just as good....but dont get that credit now.

KJ is one of my favorite players of the 80s/90s but in all honesty....him at his peak vs Spre at his...Sprewell was probably considered the better player. I wouldnt say so. But in the 90s and late 80s KJ didnt seperate himself in the eye of the public from plenty of guys who nobody would dream of ranking this high.

I don't know that people really thought that greatly of Sprewell, who was more infamous than famous. He received plenty of notoriety because he choked his coach and then landed in the New York market, but at best, he was a poor man's Mitch Richmond with a severe attitude problem. Sprewell was an inefficient player with a career .425 field goal percentage and a career assists-to-turnovers ratio of just 1.50:1.00.

[KWALI]

Top 40 all time is a bit much. You gotta throw him over guys like Dave cowens who led 68 win team, 2 title teams, and won MVPs. It can be argued but only because when you get to 35-40 a lot of the players were never super elite. Hes in a really really really wide range of guys on the same basic level(everyone from like 40-70 are still legends and hall of famers). his biggest supporters will put him closer to 40 and others closer to 70. but its still the same basic level of player.

Isnt just a numbering issue. Top 5 is more ahead of top 30 than top 30 is ahead of top 60.
Are we talking on this list or on a real list...cuz we have KB8 on the list at like 20 already....Even Stockton I think is way too high on ISH's list...don't make me talk about Cousy..

[Glove_20]

Thanks, you just made my point for me. KJ had much better overall talent to help him in the earlier years than Stockton had, eventually by around 95-96, the Jazz finally started to have a talented overall team, and John had a better supporting cast. That was why I wanted to see the rest of the stats which Glove was so sneaky to hide.
Didn't I already tell you that the Suns got Barkley in 1993. And were around equal in wins when both KJ and Stockton were in their peaks.


So I used their Peak numbers, and they were equal in wins around then. They were not even close to equal later in the 90s

[Kblaze8855]

ISH list has Elvin Hayes in the mid 30s I think. I mean real life.

[XxNeXuSxX]

Good job GMAT.

[L.Kizzle]

I just watched Game 2 of the 1993 NBA Finals on NBA TV. Kevin Johnson had a total of 4 points and 2 assist. But that wasn't the only stinker, a game before that he put up an amazing 11 and 5. The great Frank Johnson took played for KJ a lot down the stretch.


B.J. Armstrong had more then him in game 1 (16) and game 2 (8).

[Glove_20]

I just watched Game 2 of the 1993 NBA Finals on NBA TV. Kevin Johnson had a total of 4 points and 2 assist. But that wasn't the only stinker, a game before that he put up an amazing 11 and 5. The great Frank Johnson took played for KJ a lot down the stretch.


B.J. Armstrong had more then him in game 1 (16) and game 2 (8).

He was facing injury problems and just got off a tough matchup with Gary Payton and the Sonics in a 7 game series. But yeah, he had some injuries...


The rest of the series he finished:

45.6% 22.0ppg 7.8apg

Not bad...

[GMATCallahan]

I just watched Game 2 of the 1993 NBA Finals on NBA TV. Kevin Johnson had a total of 4 points and 2 assist. But that wasn't the only stinker, a game before that he put up an amazing 11 and 5. The great Frank Johnson took played for KJ a lot down the stretch.


B.J. Armstrong had more then him in game 1 (16) and game 2 (8).

Actually, in Game Two, K.J. scored 4 points with a team-high 6 assists, and in Game One he scored 11 points with 2 assists. But as "Glove" noted, for the remainder of the series (four more games), K.J. averaged 22.0 points (never fewer than 19), 7.8 assists, 4.0 rebounds, a .459 field goal percentage, and a .909 free throw percentage.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1993.htm

Johnson struggled early to adjust to a Chicago defense designed to suffocate him first and foremost, but eventually he came around and his defense momentously changed the series. I'll explain the story by copying an old post from another board momentarily.

But do you think that stars have never suffered poor games in the NBA Finals?
In Game One of the 2000 NBA Finals, Reggie Miller shot 1-16 (.063) from the field.

http://big.chez-alice.fr/webuns/finals/2000.htm

By the way, Gary Payton didn't fare much better than K.J. in the first two games of his own Finals experience versus Chicago. In Games One and Two of the 1996 NBA Finals, Payton averaged 13.0 points and 4.5 assists on 12-32 shooting from the field (.375), 1-7 on threes (.143), and 1-4 from the free throw line (.250).

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1996.htm

Or examine John Stockton's periodic struggles versus the Bulls in the NBA Finals. In the '97 Finals, Stockton had his moments in Games and Four, when he averaged 17.0 points, 12.0 assists, 5.0 rebounds, and 3.0 steals, shooting .524 from the field. But after the Jazz tied the series 2-2 and the championship hung in the balance, Stockton averaged just 13.0 points and 5.0 assists over Games Five and Six, and he averaged just 13.5 points and 6.0 assists over the series' final two contests in Chicago.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1997.htm

In the '98 Finals, Stockton started brilliantly with 24 points, 8 assists, and 2 steals in Game One, shooting 9-12 (.750) from the field and 6-7 (.857) from the free throw line. But over the series' final five games, Stockton averaged just 6.8 points, shooting .405 from the field and .500 from the free throw line as the Jazz went 1-4 over that stretch.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1998.htm

In his NBA Finals career in Games Five and Six, Stockton averaged a combined 10.5 points and 6.8 assists, cracking the 5-assist mark once in four tries, and shooting .472 from the field and .750 (6-8) from the foul line. In his NBA Finals career in Games Five and Six, K.J. averaged 22.0 points and 9.0 assists, shooting .471 from the field and 1.000 (12-12) from the free throw line.

How about Patrick Ewing, who shot .363 in the 1994 Finals (remember, as a seven-foot center)?

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1994.htm

And, hell, in Games Three, Four, and Five of the 1981 NBA Finals, Larry Bird combined to shoot .289 from the field (11-38) as Cedric Maxwell garnered Finals MVP honors for the Celtics.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1981.htm

[GMATCallahan]

Here's my old post discussing K.J. and the 1993 NBA Finals.

***

Simmons is exaggerating and twisting matters. K.J. did struggle badly in the first two games of the NBA Finals at home versus the Bulls, averaging 7.5 points and 4.0 assists per game (while also averaging 4.5 turnovers and shooting a combined 6-21, or .286, from the field). Thanks in part to K.J.'s play, the Suns dropped both contests. However, Barkley also scuffled in Game One, shooting just 9-25 from the field (K.J. shot 4-13, although a couple of the misses came on attempted layups that Richard Dumas turned into putback slams, as you can see in the following footage).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtjHXwHDcLk

Ten years later, here's what Barkley told the Arizona Republic about Game One.

[B]Realistically we lost the Finals in Games 1 and 2 (at home). None of us, myself included, had ever been through anything like that. Game 1 we were like a deer in the headlights.

http://www.nba.com/suns/history/azcentral_barkley_030622.html

So to pin that loss on K.J. would just be to use him as a scapegoat. Actually, after Game One, Phoenix assistant coach Scotty Robertson noted that the Suns hadn't done enough to help Johnson (such as employing backcourt picks to free him up from B.J. Armstrong's defensive pressure). Here's a relevant newspaper excerpt:

PRO BASKETBALL; The New Guard: Bulls' Armstrong Makes His Point BROWN, CLIFTON. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Jun 11, 1993. pg. B.7

But when Game 1 ended, the Bulls had beaten the Suns, 100-92, and Armstrong (16 points, 5 assists) had outplayed Johnson (11 points, 2 assists). Armstrong's baseline-to-baseline defense had harassed Johnson into one of his worst playoff games (4-for-13 shooting, 5 turnovers).

As both teams prepared for Game 2, Friday night in Phoenix, Armstrong had already forced the Suns to make adjustments.

"B. J. played a tremendous game," said Suns Assistant Coach Scotty Robertson. "And I've been told that B. J. was terrific against Mark Price in the Cleveland series -- had him frustrated.

"I've been here for five years, and the way everybody says you beat Phoenix is to take the ball out of Kevin Johnson's hands. That's not unusual -- we've seen it, he's seen it. But two things happened. B. J. did a better job, and we didn't give Kevin enough help. We can't allow B. J. to dog Kevin in the back court like that without helping him."

Five years ago, I re-watched much of Game Two on ESPN Classic. K.J. recorded 4 quick assists in the first quarter off penetration and then headed to the bench after picking up a couple fouls. From there, Barkley took over (42 points), and K.J. spent most of the game in foul trouble. Head coach Paul Westphal actually turned to "Fourth Quarter" Frank Johnson for part of the fourth period, and then K.J. checked back in and picked up his sixth foul, ending his game. His 6 assists and 3 steals led the team, but he only scored 4 points while recording 6 fouls and 4 turnovers in 32 minutes. In a sense, K.J. did "melt down" during the first two games of the 1993 NBA Finals.

Over the final four contests, however, he averaged 22.0 points (never scoring fewer than 19), 7.8 assists, and 4.0 rebounds, shooting .459 from the field and .909 from the free throw line. In other words, he played like an All-Star on offense and his defense momentously changed the series. For Game Three, Westphal switched K.J., instead of Dan Majerle, onto Michael Jordan. K.J. curtailed most of Jordan's driving game and gave him less space for his face-up jumpers, hence keeping him outside the lane and forcing him into tougher shots. The result was that Jordan missed 18 of his last 27 field goal attempts in Game Three as Phoenix pulled out a historic triple-overtime victory. Leading the way had been K.J., for not only had he harassed Jordan (Air scored 44 points but needed 43 field goal attempts to do so), but Johnson scored 25 of his own points, delivered 9 assists, and grabbed 7 rebounds. You can see a few of his plays here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkbK3wAvvb0&mode=related&search=

Most impressively of all, K.J. set an NBA Finals record with 62 minutes played, while guarding Jordan virtually the whole time and running the point. He didn't come out of the game until about 20 seconds remained in the third overtime and the Suns had the crucial road victory safely in the bag.

K.J. continued to perform ably from there, averaging 21.0 points and 7.3 assists over the final three contests and again guarding Jordan in Games Five (which the Suns won) and Six (which they infamously lost on the John Paxson three-pointer, 99-98). With K.J. covering Jordan, the team's defense held up and the Suns kept the Bulls under 100 points in both contests. Late in Game Six with K.J. about to shoot a couple free throws, Marv Albert stated, "Kevin Johnson coming up strong, once again."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB8kG1ZY3vs&mode=related&search=

So, yes, K.J. struggled early against the Bulls' championship-tested defensive schemes, but eventually he adjusted and came through commendably over the last four contests, making huge contributions on both ends of the floor. Here are the box scores for the series, and remember that Barkley also disappointed in Game One by shooting 36% from the field (as the power forward) in 25 attempts, another fact that Simmons ignores. Barkley also shot 39% from the field in Game Six in 18 attempts, and obviously, you'd like your MVP power forward to be at 40% or higher. That's not to say that Sir Charles was at fault (he played terrifically overall), but to simply heap all the praise on him and cite K.J. as the reason for the Finals loss is fallacious.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1993.htm

What people have to remember is that the Bulls originally designed their defense to stop K.J., not Barkley. When K.J. would cross-over early in that series, it seemed like a wall of red gel would shift across the floor to try and suffocate him. As much as some folks care to believe that the '93 Suns were simply Barkley's team and that everyone else was an ancillary presence, before the start of the Finals, Phil Jackson thought differently. Jackson said that Chicago needed to shut off the Suns' engine, and that that was K.J. Indeed, the "Zen Master" claimed that the Bulls needed to replace that "Corvette engine" with a "Volkswagen engine." Here's another newspaper excerpt noting how Chicago would target K.J. most of all, especially because in March 1993, he'd posted the highest single-game assists total of any Bull opponent that year.

BASKETBALL; Bulls' Ethic in the Finals: Work Those Suns Weary MORAN, MALCOLM. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Jun 8, 1993. pg. B.11

He understands how they think. He knows how to make them uncomfortable. Now that B. J. Armstrong's role with the Chicago Bulls has expanded to include a starting spot and specific defensive assignments, he can draw upon his previous basketball life as an outstanding offensive player at the high school and college level.

Armstrong's 3-point shooting percentage of .453 led the National Basketball Association this season. But it is his role within Chicago's defensive structure, and his ability to share in the attempted containment of Phoenix guard Kevin Johnson, that could become a central factor in the championship series against the Suns, which begins Wednesday night in Phoenix.

"That's where they overwhelm us," said Phil Jackson, the Chicago coach, when asked about the point-guard position, and Johnson's impact.

"It's mainly his will," Jackson said. "He has great will. Stubbornness, almost, in that he's going to penetrate the defense. It can get him in trouble. It can make him great. We have to find the first and prevent the latter."

... Johnson May Be the Key

For all of Charles Barkley's overwhelming power and outrageous boldness, Johnson's creative playmaking role makes him a focal point. His 16 assists against the Bulls on March 30, with Armstrong, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippin [sic] and John Paxson taking turns against him, were the most against Chicago this season and an important part of a 113-109 Phoenix victory.

... Armstrong said the task of dealing with Johnson was far from a one-on-one matchup, but he understands his importance.

"After this series, I just want him to know that I'm going to be there," Armstrong said. "I don't know how many points he's going to score. I don't know how many assists he's going to get. You can't stop a guy. You just make him work for every single thing he gets. Every crossover dribble. Every rebound. Every steal.

"I know I'm not going to stop him. He gets the ball too much. Stopping a guy is impossible. But limiting how many times he can touch the ball, making him dribble 90 feet instead of just walking it up and picking him up at halfcourt, those are things that add up in a seven-game series."

Sure enough, the Bulls let Barkley go off for 42 in Game Two and yet still emerged with the victory. The guy that they'd wanted to dog was K.J., and early in the series, they did so expertly, especially since Johnson was foul-ridden in Game Two and was inclined to let Sir Charles dominate, anyway.

Simmons, however, seems to believe that K.J. played poorly for virtually the entire series, which is simply incorrect. In a column last spring, he actually wrote that K.J. didn't show up until Game Five of the '93 Finals. I don't know where he'd been during Game Three, but evidently it wasn't in front of a television set. That triple-overtime affair was arguably as epic and thrilling a contest as any in the history of the NBA Finals, and K.J.'s star burned brightly with his resilient, record-setting, marathon effort. Apparently, Simmons possesses no memory of the game or K.J.'s continuing effectiveness thereafter in the series.

That's why I detest Simmons, because he's a Hollywood entertainment writer who uses his soapbox on this web site to masquerade as a sports journalist. He should stick to comedy and stop trying to be a basketball analyst/historian, especially if he's going to botch or twist his facts. I actually wrote to him about this gaffe last year, but who knows if he read my e-mail. If you guys really want to set him straight on the true story, e-mail him with some of the truth, accompanied by the links that I've provided here. If he's flooded, the veracity may finally penetrate his thick skull.

http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=nba&id=pho&tid=911190&lid=10

[GMATCallahan]

Good job GMAT.

Thanks. Hopefully some of the articles were intriguing historical reads for NBA fans, if nothing else.

[GMATCallahan]

Glove, you say at KJ's peak he was better the Stock, Kidd, Nash, ect. But what seperates his peak from players like Fat Lever, Tim Hardaway or somebody like that?


Those guys had some pretty good 2-3 season stretches.

Fat Lever, 1987-1989 (three seasons): 19.2 points, 7.9 assists, .467 field goal percentage (16.8 FGA), .784 free throw percentage (4.1 FTA), 8.7 rebounds, 2.6 steals, 2.2 turnovers, 3.66:1.00 assists-to-turnovers, 37.7 minutes, 78.3 games.

The Denver Nuggets averaged 45.0 wins per regular season, reaching three Western Conference First Rounds and one Western Conference Semifinals.

Kevin Johnson, 1989-1991 (three seasons): 21.7 points, 11.3 assists, .507 field goal percentage (14.8 FGA), .854 free throw percentage (7.7 FTA), 3.8 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 3.7 turnovers, 3.07:1.00 assists-to-turnovers, 37.6 minutes, 77.3 games.

The Phoenix Suns averaged 54.7 wins per regular season, reaching three Western Conference First Rounds, two Western Conference Semifinals, and two Western Conference Finals.

Tim Hardaway, 1991-1993 (three seasons): 22.7 points, 10.0 assists, .463 field goal percentage (18.8 FGA), .771 free throw percentage (5.0 FTA), 4.0 rebounds, 2.2 steals, 3.3 turnovers, 3.04:1.00 assists-to-turnovers, 40.0 minutes, 76.3 games.

The Golden State Warriors averaged 44.3 wins per season, reaching two Western Conference First Rounds and one Western Conference Semifinals.

All three players enjoyed terrific three-year stretches, but K.J.'s was clearly the most effective and hence resulted in vastly greater (or more consistent) regular season and postseason success. On average, his teams won about ten more games per regular season and were a serious contender for the NBA Finals, twice reaching the Western Conference Finals. Hardaway's Warriors, conversely, didn't even reach the playoffs every year during his peak stretch, even though he was running with other scintillating scorers such as Mitch Richmond (for awhile) and Chris Mullin (remember "Run TMC"). In fact, in Hardaway's five full seasons in Golden State, the Warriors actually missed the playoffs in three of those years (60% of the time) and only won one playoff series (the 1991 Western Conference First Round versus San Antonio). In Hardaway's entire 13-year NBA career, his teams won a grand total of four playoff series, and one of those was primarily due to a brawl that wiped out virtually half the Knicks' roster in 1997.

Hardaway scored on the same prolific level as K.J., but he was much more inefficient from both the field and the free throw line. He required several more field goal attempts to score his points, he was more inconsistent as a shooter, and he didn't attack the basket as well or draw as many fouls. Hardaway also wasn't quite the playmaker that K.J. happened to be, although he was prolific. Still, K.J. averaged over an assist more per game during those three-year stretches, twice reaching 11.0 and once 12.0. Hardaway, conversely, never reached 11.0 assists per contest.

Lever obviously didn't measure up to K.J. and Hardaway as a scorer or a playmaker, and he, too, didn't compare to K.J. when it came to field goal and free throw percentage. He teamed with Hall of Famer Alex English in Denver (who scored more points in the decade of the 1980s than anyone else), along with other fine scorers such as Walter Davis and Michael Adams, but he couldn't consistently elevate his teams like K.J. because he wasn't the same caliber of scorer, shooter, or playmaker.

Lever and K.J. actually squared off in the 1989 Western Conference First Round, with Lever averaging 11.0 points, 9.5 assists, a .375 field goal percentage (12.0 FGA), a 1.000 free throw percentage (2-2, 1.0 FTA), 6.5 rebounds, 2.0 steals, and a 3.17:1.00 assists-to-turnovers. K.J., meanwhile, averaged 30.7 points, 13.0 assists, a .480 field goal percentage (16.7 FGA), a .935 free throw percentage (43-46, 15.3 FTA), 2.7 rebounds, 2.3 steals, 3.7 turnovers, and a 3.55:1.00 assists-to-turnovers ratio. Given those numbers, it shouldn't be surprising that the Suns swept the series, 3-0, averaging 122 points per game and scoring at least 130 in each of the last two. Denver, meanwhile, averaged 113.

Lever was a phenomenal rebounder, so a better comparison for him would be Jason Kidd. Kidd was the more prolific playmaker, but Lever at his peak was a superior scorer and field goal shooter.

When it comes to combining the three more important statistics for an elite playmaker, points, assists, and field goal percentage, three players stand out in NBA history: Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, and Kevin Johnson.

[GMATCallahan]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/i0ttke

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zqfRC9GEyYE

Not the highest quality at all points(and youtube doesnt help) but lets see you get 3 minutes of prime mostly pre Barkley Kevin Johnson footage. Its mostly from old NBA action tapes, a few home videos, and other sources. Left out the Bulls 93 title video footage. Wanted more of his pre injury days.

Now....

Hes one of the few to lead a team past a Magic Johnson led team when Magic was actually playing. Moses Malone, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, and Kevin Johnson. Magic was hurt when they played the Pistons and got swept. Hamstring issue. Him and Magic are the only 20+ point 10+ assists 50% shooting players ever and both of them did it twice. Some choose to consider Tom Chambers the leader of those suns but its no different than Nash and Amare. Anyone giving Nash credit for the Suns should probably give KJ credit for his. Both had crazy talent to do what they did but not all talented teams come together so well..

Think these suns are great scorers? KJ was leading some of the best offensive teams anyone could hope to see. Hed led a 119ppg team one season. The brief "This day in history" clip in the video is from a game the Suns scored 173 points in regulation. One season they had 130 in 3 of the first 4 games of the season. Later that year they had 3 130+ point games in a 3 week stretch and dropped 138 points 3 days after the last of those. They topped 120 in 3 of the last 4 games of that season with a game of 141. They only went under 100 points in 3 games one season. Gave the warriors 154. They had 3 straight playoff games with over 130 points. KJ probably led the greatest offense of the last quarter century outside the early 80s Nuggets and Showtime(who never actually scored 119 a game as the Suns did).

When Nash went off in the 05 playoffs he had people saying it proved he was MVP. He put up 24 and 11 that playoff run. Kevin Johnson had long playoff runs(10 games or more 3 of them to the WCF) getting:

24/12
24/12(not a mistake he did it in 2 seasons)
27 and 10
25/9(shot 57% that run too)

And really he could have put up more assists but the Suns had an oldschool style of fastbreak. They didnt just run with the ball they broke out like wide recievers and had guys throwing full court outlet passes. In the video I showed clips from a Suns/heat game where Kevin did a lot of what im talking about. Get the rebound and toss it 80 feet for the layup or to a teammate who then gets the assist by hitting the open man. He might have averaged more assists if he kept the ball himself more on the break.

In the halfcourt he had a good bit of scoring responsibility. He didnt lead them in ppg but id say he was their best one on one scorer. Bit of a TJ ford and Wade hybrid. Always willing to pass but he could get to the basket at will.

And his defense. He wasnt an elite defender but he was great on the ball when he had to be. Even guarded Michael Jordan pretty well at times even though the bigger(and all D team level defender) Majerle was on the team. List of current points you could throw on Jordan is not long.

Im not saying hes top 30-50 all time as a few do but he sure as hell wasnt worse than Steve Nash.

http://www.nba.com/media/suns/kevin_johnson_190.jpg

Praise KJ.

Actually, when watching T.J. Ford this spring, I also thought that I saw a little K.J. in him, and then Wade does have that explosive quality, balanced by the mid-range jumper (although K.J.'s was better in my view).

Good call on Ford in particular.

[MrFonzworth]

Link's not working

[Round Mound]

KJ was probably the best scoring pg in the 90s. He was a great passer also but he would force the scoring to much a bit when he could have been better as a 1st pass then score pg. He wasn't very durable and missed alot of games with the Suns in the Barkley years. In the 93 finals he played pretty bad but in the next two following play-off runs he played really well while Barkley was batteling injuries. If Reggie Miller, Jack Sikma, Rodman are in the HOF then he should also be in it.

[3ball]

One of the best 2nd options that MJ faced, along with peak 96' Kemp, McHale, Penny, and the all-time assists and steals leader (Stockton).. And guys like Daughtery or Dumars.

[zeerghit]

One of the best 2nd options that MJ faced, along with peak 96' Kemp, McHale, Penny, and the all-time assists and steals leader (Stockton).. And guys like Daughtery or Dumars.
u such a clown

[egokiller]

The best PG in Suns History, sorry Nash unless you win a title for them, you are #2.

Nash couldn