Players that lack expert jumpshot to shoot over defenses NEED SPACING to drive

[3ba11]

It's a vulnerability... a flaw... a weakness compared to guys that can rely on their jumper and therefore win with lane-cloggers as teammates (bricklayers or centers).

Furthermore, expert jumpshooters will lead their team in jumpshooting in the playoffs and this includes threes - they can play the "shooter" role (so they don't need as many shooters as teammates), and they can shoot over defenses, so they don't need wide driving lanes or spacing.

[RRR3]

You were warned to stop making the same threads over and over again and you STILL can’t do it. Please see a therapist.

[1987_Lakers]

You've made this thread before.

Think of something new.

[3ba11]

You were warned to stop making the same threads over and over again and you STILL can’t do it. Please see a therapist.


This is a legitimate thread so f*ck off loser and go stalk someone else you weirdo

Everyone remembers that you spent Christmas looking up family and you probably spent Thanksgiving adding more soil to the burials on your back yard... Sicko

[Kblaze8855]

Prime Iverson couldn’t drive
Iverson was an expert jump shooter
Eric Snow, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, and Mutombo were “spacing”


Which of those things were true? Feels like if you’re right…one of the 3 has to be. Not that you like to apply your theories to anyone but the subject of your eternal struggle….I still find myself curious. If non expert shooters need spacing to drive why could Allen Iverson and dozens of other non-expert shooters playing without spacing drive so successfully?

[Kblaze8855]

You were warned to stop making the same threads over and over again and you STILL can’t do it. Please see a therapist.

obviously, he’s not actually making a point that isn’t about LeBron but here I am trying to give an out to see if he can poke his head into talking about people completely unrelated.

He will do it on Alts to throw off the scent I’m just trying to get it out of the main account. I’m bored in hobby lobby with this woman looking for decorations.

[3ba11]

Prime Iverson couldn’t drive
Iverson was an expert jump shooter
Eric Snow, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, and Mutombo were “spacing”


Which of those things were true? Feels like if you’re right…one of the 3 has to be. Not that you like to apply your theories to anyone but the subject of your eternal struggle….I still find myself curious. If non expert shooters need spacing to drive why could Allen Iverson and dozens of other non-expert shooters playing without spacing drive so successfully?


Iverson was an expert jumpshooter just like Jordan - the vast majority of his shots were jumpers - he absolutely didn't need the rim attack to get 40 or 50

And guys like Westbrick can still get numbers without spacing, but their numbers and winning is better with spacing and they need more of it than expert jumpshooters need

[3ba11]

obviously, he’s not actually making a point that isn’t about LeBron but here I am trying to give an out to see if he can poke his head into talking about people completely unrelated.

He will do it on Alts to throw off the scent I’m just trying to get it out of the main account. I’m bored in hobby lobby with this woman looking for decorations.


I never said that spotty-shooting ball-dominators can't put up numbers without great spacing, but their skillset needs spacing more than expert jumpshooters because they rely on driving more than shooting over defenses.. Otoh, guys that consistently shoot over defenses can win without an elite-shooting team or with lane-cloggers/bricklayers as sidekick.

[StrongLurk]

Plenty of non-shooters have still been able to drive to the rim almost at-will. This thread is dumb like most of OPs.

[RRR3]

This is a legitimate thread so f*ck off loser and go stalk someone else you weirdo

Everyone remembers that you spent Christmas looking up family and you probably spent Thanksgiving adding more soil to the burials on your back yard... Sicko
Jews don’t celebrate Christmas buddy. Meltdown.

[3ba11]

Plenty of non-shooters have still been able to drive to the rim almost at-will without good spacing.





2 reasons that ball-dominators need more shooters/spacing help than expert jumpshooters:



1) Wider driving lanes benefit the ball-dominator more than the expert jumpshooter, who can shoot over defenses

2) The ball-dominator needs good kickout options to have viable team offense and a viable team, while the expert jumpshooter plays the shooter role themselves, which reduces the amount of shooting help they need


i.e. the 2008 Cavs were a bummy, 45-win underdog until elite shooting help arrived in 2009 to open up Lebron's game and turn the team into league favorites

[RRR3]

spam
You just want to be banned again don’t you

[Phoenix]

2 reasons that ball-dominators need more shooters/spacing help than expert jumpshooters:



1) Wider driving lanes benefit the ball-dominator more than the expert jumpshooter, who can shoot over defenses

2) The ball-dominator needs good kickout options to have viable team offense and a viable team, while the expert jumpshooter plays the shooter role themselves, which reduces the amount of shooting help they need


i.e. the 2008 Cavs were a bummy, 45-win underdog until elite shooting help arrived in 2009 to open up Lebron's game and turn the team into league favorites

There it is.

[SouBeachTalents]

2 reasons that ball-dominators need more shooters/spacing help than expert jumpshooters:



1) Wider driving lanes benefit the ball-dominator more than the expert jumpshooter, who can shoot over defenses

2) The ball-dominator needs good kickout options to have viable team offense and a viable team, while the expert jumpshooter plays the shooter role themselves, which reduces the amount of shooting help they need


i.e. the 2008 Cavs were a bummy, 45-win underdog until elite shooting help arrived in 2009 to open up Lebron's game and turn the team into league favorites
Sort of like how Pippen turned a bummy 40 win team who couldn’t get out of the first round into a dynasty.

[3ba11]

Sort of like how Pippen turned a bummy 40 win team who couldn’t get out of the first round into a dynasty.


I would agree with you if Pippen arrived on the Bulls and was an all-star in 88' with very good PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM, scoring and efficiency - but he didn't do that until 91' - otoh, Mo arrived and immediately did exactly that with superior stats than 90' Pippen across the board - he was superior offensively than 90' Pippen across the board while the Cavs had the #3 defense (#19 for the Bulls)

btw, both Jordan and Lebron made the 2nd Round in their 3rd healthy season (88' and 06'), except Lebron had a 2x all-star center and a 22/5/5 all-defender in a conference that 1-star teams were winning, while MJ had a bummy team of rookies in a conference that required a super-team to win.

[ShawkFactory]

I would agree with you if Pippen arrived on the Bulls and was an all-star in 88' with very good PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM, scoring and efficiency - but he didn't do that until 91' - otoh, Mo arrived and immediately did exactly that with superior stats than 90' Pippen across the board - he was superior offensively than 90' Pippen across the board while the Cavs had the #3 defense (#19 for the Bulls)

Which is why they won. You just proved his point.

His individual incremental improvement led to incremental improvement in results for the Bulls.

[Phoenix]

I would agree with you if Pippen arrived on the Bulls and was an all-star in 88' with very good PER, WS/48, VORP, BPM, scoring and efficiency - but he didn't do that until 91' - otoh, Mo arrived and immediately did exactly that with superior stats than 90' Pippen across the board - he was superior offensively than 90' Pippen across the board while the Cavs had the #3 defense (#19 for the Bulls)



Mo averaged 5/1/1 on 43% TS as a rookie. What are you talking about?

[3ba11]

Which is why they won. You just proved his point.

His individual incremental improvement led to incremental improvement in results for the Bulls.


1st Year Pippen....... 7 ppg
2nd Year Pippen.... 14 ppg
3rd Year Pippen..... all-star
4th Year Pippen..... champion
5th Year Pippen..... repeat champ and All-NBA


So Pippen grew by leaps and bounds alongside Jordan's off-ball game - it wasn't a bad fit of 2 ball-dominators like Lebron/Westbrook or Lebron/Hughes or Lebron/Wade or Lebron/Ingram.

Ingram and Kuzma are both averaging 20 ppg this season with amazing efficiency - Jordan would 3-peat with them easily because his expert jumpshooting style yields more coaching options and a superior brand of ball/chemistry that wins more with less..

Of course Jordan can also carry the scoring load as an expert jumpshooter with sufficient brand of ball at high scoring volume (the ball still moves), so he can carry the scoring load against top teams and win with secondary producers like Pippen or Wiggins.. Otoh, ball-dominators like Lebron lack sufficient brand of ball to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams, so he needs all-time scoring help like Wade, AD, and Kareem

[3ba11]

Mo averaged 5/1/1 on 43% TS as a rookie. What are you talking about?


Lebron doesn't have to develop rookies.... :kobe:

His skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, so he needs ready-made producers and stars

Mo was a ready-made in 2009 with superior PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP, scoring and efficiency to 1990 Pippen, while the Cavs had the #3 defense (#19 for the Bulls)..

So Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost a couple more times as the favorite in 2010 and super-team in 2011.

[ShawkFactory]

:roll:

I laugh because I knew exactly what your entire moving the goalpost post was going to be. Literally the entire thing.

[Full Court]

You were warned to stop making the same threads over and over again and you STILL can’t do it. Please see a therapist.

And you get upset by every one of his threads. It's obvious that you're the one who needs a therapist.

[Phoenix]

Lebron doesn't have to develop rookies.... :kobe:

His skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, so he needs ready-made producers and stars

Mo was a ready-made in 2009 with superior PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP, scoring and efficiency to 1990 Pippen, while the Cavs had the #3 defense (#19 for the Bulls)..

So Lebron had better help on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost a couple more times as the favorite in 2010 and super-team in 2011.

So you're saying that rookie Scottie should have had the poise of a 6th year player which Mo was in 2009.

[3ba11]

Which is why they won. You just proved his point.

His individual incremental improvement led to incremental improvement in results for the Bulls.


Pippen was less help than what others required - he was a bricklayer and lane-clogger that a ball-dominator like Lebron could never win with - that's the point

His improvement alongside Jordan means nothing except it's a boon to Jordan that his skillset allows young players to improve...

[SouBeachTalents]

:roll:

I laugh because I knew exactly what your entire moving the goalpost post was going to be. Literally the entire thing.
Yep, when LeBron’s teammates play well, it only shows how stacked his teams are. But when Jordan’s teammates play well, it’s only because they were developed by him.

And the opposite is true too. When LeBron’s teammates don’t play well, it’s because of his shitty brand of ball. But when Jordan’s teammates don’t play well, it’s only because they suck lol.

I remember after the ‘16 Finals he was literally doing this, making Kyrie threads showing how unprecedented his help was, then Love ones showing how he craters his teammates. His fakkitry is shameless :lol

[3ba11]

So you're saying that rookie Scottie should have had the poise of a 6th year player which Mo was in 2009.


I'm saying that Mo Williams improved the Cavs - Lebron needed that spacing, while Jordan won with a bricklayer and lane-clogger like Pippen.

.Lebron can't win with lane-cloggers like Westbrick or Pippen

[Phoenix]

I'm saying that Mo Williams improved the Cavs - Lebron needed that spacing, while Jordan won with a bricklayer and lane-clogger like Pippen.


Lebron can't win with lane-cloggers like Westbrick or Pippen

Did you by chance see Mo in the playoffs? He shot 41% in both the 2009 and 2010 playoffs.

[ShawkFactory]

Did you by chance see Mo in the playoffs? He shot 41% in both the 2009 and 2010 playoffs.

It's the fault of the Lebron brand of ball. That claim is literally coming next.

[3ba11]

Yep, when LeBron’s teammates play well, it only shows how stacked his teams are. But when Jordan’s teammates play well, it’s only because they were developed by him.

And the opposite is true too. When LeBron’s teammates don’t play well, it’s because of his shitty brand of ball. But when Jordan’s teammates don’t play well, it’s only because they suck lol.

I remember after the ‘16 Finals he was literally doing this, making Kyrie threads showing how unprecedented his help was, then Love ones showing how he craters his teammates. His fakkitry is shameless :lol


Jordan won with less... that's the point.. he won with less help than Lebron needed, while beating Magic, Isiah, Payton, or Barkley with less help than they had.

And a ball-dominator like Lebron needs elite spacing help like Mo to have a good team, while Jordan won with a bricklayer and lane-clogger like Pippen.

And why make fun of the historical record?... Jordan's teammates were infact developed by him, while Lebron needed ready-made stars because his skillset can't develop young players - he imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, whereby needing ready made stars.

[3ba11]

Did you by chance see Mo in the playoffs? He shot 41% in both the 2009 and 2010 playoffs.


Jordan won 2 titles with the worst efficiency ever



https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg



Otoh, Lebron lost with a bed-wetting Mo because lebron actually NEVER carried bed-wetting sidekicks over a top team, aka he never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.. In addition to not carrying bed-wetting sidekicks over top teams, Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals).

There's a reason that ball-dominators can't carry the scoring load, while expert jumpshooters can - ball-dominators lack sufficient brand of ball to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant), so they need all-time scoring help like Kareem, AD, Wade or Kyrie.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters can carry the scoring load while the ball moves, so they can carry the scoring load against top teams and win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen, Lowry, Pau, or Terry.

[Phoenix]

[SIZE=3]

Otoh, Lebron lost with a bed-wetting Mo because lebron actually NEVER carried bed-wetting sidekicks over a top team, aka he never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.. In addition to not carrying bed-wetting sidekicks over top teams, Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals).


So Mo didn't actually improve the Cavs in any meaningful sense then.

[3ba11]

So Mo didn't actually improve the Cavs in any meaningful sense then.


Of course he did - Mo gave Lebron the spacing his stiff-arm needs to be MVP-caliber

Lebron infact isn't MVP-caliber without elite spacing, while MJ was MVP with rookie Pippen's 7 ppg off the bench - again, Jordan could shoot over defenses and didn't need wide driving lanes to be MVP like Lebron

88' Jordan had that truly dominant MVP season while carrying bums on a bad team, while Lebron needed all-star Mo and elire spacing to get his rocks off

it's a weakness compared to Bird, Curry MJ or Kobe who provide spacing themselves as expert jumpshooters

[┌∩┐(﹒︠益﹒︡)┌∩┐]

Jews don’t celebrate Christmas buddy. Meltdown.

You spent Yom Kippur on ish :lol

[3ba11]

So Mo didn't actually improve the Cavs in any meaningful sense then.


Mo didn't play great in the playoffs, but Lebron should still be able to win with a top defense and bed-wetting offense from the sidekick because MJ did (and you guys say Lebron is on MJ's level).

But since Lebron can't beat top teams with bed-wetting sidekicks, we know that he infact isn't on MJ's level for all the reasons mentioned previously (insufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume so he needs all-time scoring help, aka can't beat #4 SRS Magic with 18 on 38% from Mo.. which is actually solid for Pippen).

And people say Lebron carried teams but the historical record shows that he was only winning 45-50 games through his 5th healthy season (08') despite having the East all-star, top 5 defenses and a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisition....

45-50 wins in your 3rd to 5th healthy seasons with these veterans is hardly "carrying".. So yeah, Mo improved the Cavs a ton and took them to the next level of LEAGUE FAVORITE

[Phoenix]

Of course he did - Mo gave Lebron the spacing his stiff-arm needs to be MVP-caliber



In terms of how far the team actually progressed, not really. They had already been to the finals and 2nd round before Mo arrived. The two years he was there they got to the conference finals and then 2nd round. They could have done that without Mo.

[3ba11]

In terms of how far the team actually progressed, not really. They had already been to the finals and 2nd round before Mo arrived. The two years he was there they got to the conference finals and then 2nd round. They could have done that without Mo.


The 2006-2008 Cavs were pedestrian teams that won 45-50 games and lost in the 2nd Round - this was after taking 3 long years to make the 06' Playoffs with the East all-star center and a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisiition.

That's hardly an all-time example "carrying"

in b4 you point out that these pedestrian Cavs had a fluke in 07', which shows that Lebron's carry-job ability compares to AI, Kidd, or Dwight (although Dwight and AI actually won games in the Finals off Shaq and Kobe, while Lebron couldn't take a game off Duncan because he wet the bed with worst-ever performance).

This simply isn't a great record of "carrying" before Mo arrived - Mo took the Cavs from this pedestrian level to 66-win league favorites (including a top 5 offense and defense), while the effectiveness of Lebron's drives improved to MVP-caliber - that's an entirely different level than 06-08'... Mo's spacing was clearly the difference

Btw, I know you'll be least likely to agree with the following but it's true - the Cavs' defense improved with Mo's arrival because their defensive requirements were less - they were facing worn-down opponents from defending the Cavs' vastly improved offense (winning the attrition battle more often).

[Phoenix]

The 2006-2008 Cavs were pedestrian teams that won 45-50 games and lost in the 2nd Round - this was after taking 3 long years to make the 06' Playoffs with the East all-star center and a 22/5/5 all-defender acquisiition.

That's hardly an all-time example "carrying"

in b4 you point out that these pedestrian Cavs had a fluke in 07', which shows that Lebron's carry-job ability compares to AI, Kidd, or Dwight (although Dwight and AI actually won games in the Finals off Shaq and Kobe, while Lebron couldn't take a game off Duncan because he wet the bed with worst-ever performance).

This simply isn't a great record of "carrying" before Mo arrived - Mo took the Cavs from this pedestrian level to 66-win league favorites (including a top 5 offense and defense), while the effectiveness of Lebron's drives improved to MVP-caliber - that's an entirely different level than 06-08'... Mo's spacing was clearly the difference

Btw, I know you'll be least likely to agree with the following but it's true - the Cavs' defense improved with Mo's arrival because their defensive requirements were less - they were facing worn-down opponents from defending the Cavs' vastly improved offense (winning the attrition battle more often).

I didn't say anything about an all-time carry. You're overcomplicating it. 2007 and 2008...finals and 2nd round. 2009 and 2010....conference finals and 2nd round. Unless the Cavs ended up making it further when it counted( the playoffs) with Mo, then it doesn't matter that the season record improved. You're the same person who argues that season record doesn't matter when people bring up the 55 win 94 Bulls. The same principle applies here: the Cavs didn't do anything with Mo that they hadn't already done without him. Lebron was also a better player in 2009 and 2010 then he was in 2007 and 2008, so Mo's 'improvement' to the roster was some regular season wins that meant sweet fukk all when the playoffs rolled around.

[WhiteKyrie]

This is a legitimate thread so f*ck off loser and go stalk someone else you weirdo

Everyone remembers that you spent Christmas looking up family and you probably spent Thanksgiving adding more soil to the burials on your back yard... Sicko
:oldlol:

[3ba11]

I didn't say anything about an all-time carry. You're overcomplicating it. 2007 and 2008...finals and 2nd round. 2009 and 2010....conference finals and 2nd round. Unless the Cavs ended up making it further when it counted( the playoffs) with Mo, then it doesn't matter that the season record improved. You're the same person who argues that season record doesn't matter when people bring up the 55 win 94 Bulls. The same principle applies here: the Cavs didn't do anything with Mo that they hadn't already done without him. Lebron was also a better player in 2009 and 2010 then he was in 2007 and 2008, so Mo's 'improvement' to the roster was some regular season wins that meant sweet fukk all when the playoffs rolled around.


The Cavs did many new things with Mo:



1) underdogs to league favorite

2) top 20 to top 5 on offense and defense

3) #16 to #1 SRS

4) Lebron became MVP-caliber (needs elite spacing to be MVP-caliber)


For Lebron to reach MVP-caliber, he needed an all-star teammate to open things up for him.

Otoh, MJ won MVP in 1988 with a bum cast and no spacing..

Unlike Lebron, expert jumpshooters like MJ can shoot over defenses and therefore don't need spacing/wide driving lanes...

Ultimately, Lebron could never win 66 games with a lane-clogger like Pippen or without an elite-shooting team - do you agree with this?.. He won with Wade but that was with the best 3-point shooting in the league and HOF Bosh/Allen playing spot-up roles.

[ShawkFactory]

For Lebron to reach MVP-caliber, he needed an all-star teammate to open things up for him.. :confusedshrug:




He was the scoring champion the year before that...

Also led the NBA in PER, BPM, and VORP (I've seen you use the statistics quite a bit).

[3ba11]

He was the scoring champion the year before that...


The historical record shows that Lebron was below Kobe, CP3 and KG for MVP in 2008

He didn't reach MVP-caliber until Mo's spacing arrived to improve the effectiveness of his drives (which he relies on)

Specifically, Lebron's efficiency improved to elite levels for the first time (near 60 TS and over 120 ORtg)

It's funny because Lebron can only win 66 with elite spacing like Mo, and couldn't win with a lane-clogger like Pippen

[Red Pill Sports]

The historical record shows that Lebron was below Kobe, CP3 and KG for MVP in 2008

He didn't reach MVP-caliber until Mo's spacing arrived to improve the effectiveness of his drives (which he relies on)

Specifically, Lebron's efficiency improved to elite levels for the first time (near 60 TS and over 120 ORtg)

It's funny because Lebron can only win 66 with elite spacing like Mo, and couldn't win with a lane-clogger like Pippen

This is why I'm always dismissive of the "He never had a teammate like Pippen!" Yeah, he wouldn't have wanted Pippen for precisely this reason. Not to mention Pippen needed to be the main ball handler in order to develop and knowing Bron's obsession with inflating his stats, we know that ain't happening.

[ShawkFactory]

The historical record shows that Lebron was below Kobe, CP3 and KG for MVP in 2008



Bitch please :lol

[Hey Yo]

The Cavs did many new things with Mo:



1) underdogs to league favorite

2) top 20 to top 5 on offense and defense

3) #16 to #1 SRS

4) Lebron became MVP-caliber (needs elite spacing to be MVP-caliber)


For Lebron to reach MVP-caliber, he needed an all-star teammate to open things up for him.

Otoh, MJ won MVP in 1988 with a bum cast and no spacing..

Unlike Lebron, expert jumpshooters like MJ can shoot over defenses and therefore don't need spacing/wide driving lanes...

Ultimately, Lebron could never win 66 games with a lane-clogger like Pippen or without an elite-shooting team - do you agree with this?.. He won with Wade but that was with the best 3-point shooting in the league and HOF Bosh/Allen playing spot-up roles.

1. Cleveland was ranked 6th as preseason favorites.

More lies from you as usual.

[3ba11]

This is why I'm always dismissive of the "He never had a teammate like Pippen!" Yeah, he wouldn't have wanted Pippen for precisely this reason. Not to mention Pippen needed to be the main ball handler in order to develop and knowing Bron's obsession with inflating his stats, we know that ain't happening.


Expert jumpshooters like MJ and Curry put the ball in teammates' hands and then act as the goat assist target to bailout their young, ball-handling teammate if needed - that's how young ball-handlers like Pippen, Draymond, Ingram or Hughes develop..

Unfortunately, Lebron's skillset reduced Ingram and Hughes to stand-around roles, so their assists decreased alongside Lebron and they couldn't grow.

Ultimately, Lebron starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time) - these 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 PG lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that loses on the championship level.

[3ba11]

1. Cleveland was ranked 6th as preseason favorites.

More lies from you as usual.


Cavs were the favorite heading into the playoffs over Kobe's Lakers:

https://www.thespread.com/nba-articles/041609-2009-nba-finals-odds-to-win-cleveland-cavaliers-54-favorites-to-win-nba-title


So again, the Cavs were a pedestrian, 45-win underdog before Mo made them league favorites over Kobe's Lakers.

Accept the reality that Lebron's stiff arm is vastly improved WITH spacing, while expert jumpshooters like MJ and Kobe can win with lane-cloggers at sidekick because they can shoot over defenses

[Hey Yo]

If MO was the X factor, then how come coaches around the league didn't see that and name him to the All-Star team the first time around? Why did it take 2 dudes to drop out before he was added?

Why not at least 3rd team All-NBA if his impact was abig as you claim it was?

[ShawkFactory]

If MO was the X factor, then how come coaches around the league didn't see that and name him to the All-Star team the first time around? Why did it take 2 dudes to drop out before he was added?

Why not at least 3rd team All-NBA if his impact was abig as you claim it was?

Relax he's just saying things that sound good to his narrative but that he can't actually back up with reason.

[3ba11]

Relax he's just saying things that sound good to his narrative but that he can't actually back up with reason.


Hey Yo was already proven wrong because the Cavs were the favorite heading into the playoffs over Kobe's Lakers:

https://www.thespread.com/nba-articles/041609-2009-nba-finals-odds-to-win-cleveland-cavaliers-54-favorites-to-win-nba-title


So again, the Cavs were a pedestrian, 45-win underdog before Mo made them league favorites over Kobe's Lakers.

Accept the reality that Lebron's stiff arm is vastly improved WITH spacing, while expert jumpshooters like MJ and Kobe can win with lane-cloggers at sidekick (Pippen/Pau) because they can shoot over defenses

[ShawkFactory]

Hey Yo was already proven wrong because the Cavs were the favorite heading into the playoffs over Kobe's Lakers:

https://www.thespread.com/nba-articles/041609-2009-nba-finals-odds-to-win-cleveland-cavaliers-54-favorites-to-win-nba-title


So again, the Cavs were a pedestrian, 45-win underdog before Mo made them league favorites over Kobe's Lakers.

Accept the reality that Lebron's stiff arm is vastly improved WITH spacing, while expert jumpshooters like MJ and Kobe can win with lane-cloggers at sidekick because they can shoot over defenses

So his drives became more effective with spacing? That's how you explain the difference in efficiency between 08 and 09?

Surely you'd have something to back that up.

[Hey Yo]

Hey Yo was already proven wrong because the Cavs were the favorite heading into the playoffs over Kobe's Lakers:

https://www.thespread.com/nba-articles/041609-2009-nba-finals-odds-to-win-cleveland-cavaliers-54-favorites-to-win-nba-title


So again, the Cavs were a pedestrian, 45-win underdog before Mo made them league favorites over Kobe's Lakers.

Accept the reality that Lebron's stiff arm is vastly improved WITH spacing, while expert jumpshooters like MJ and Kobe can win with lane-cloggers at sidekick (Pippen/Pau) because they can shoot over defenses

Funny how all of a sudden you use " heading into the playoffs" instead of your usual "preseason favorite"

Why didn't coaches notice he was such a factor and reward him with an All-star or All-NBA nod?

[3ba11]

So his drives became more effective with spacing? That's how you explain the difference in efficiency between 08 and 09?

Surely you'd have something to back that up.


Lebron spent the first 5 years of his career never cracking 70% in at-rim efficiency

Then Mo gave him the spacing he needed to shatter that glass ceiling and reach all-time level thereafter (Lebron almost always had elite spacing after that because Mo showed GM's how spacing helps his game).

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron spent the first 5 years of his career never cracking 70% in at-rim efficiency

Then Mo gave him the spacing he needed to shatter that glass ceiling and reach all-time level thereafter (Lebron almost always had elite spacing after that because Mo showed GM's how spacing helps his game).

In addition to wider driving lanes, Mo's spacing effect improved all aspects of the Cavs and Lebron's game, aka passing, cutting, and offense in general.

To be honest...I'm not sure I've ever you more completely full of shit :lol

It's almost like you're trying to hard at this point because it's become obvious.

[3ba11]

To be honest...I'm not sure I've ever you more completely full of shit :lol

It's almost like you're trying to hard at this point because it's become obvious.


You're just mad because I've discovered an entire new line of attack against Lebron... :roll:

The bum never won MVP without an all-star to open up his game.. He can't shoot over defenses, so his penetrator skillset benefits greatly from elite spacing - his game isn't MVP-caliber without it and his teams aren't elite without it as we saw in 2008 and 2009.

Mo's spacing made Lebron's rim attack impactful (66-wins vs 45 wins)

[GrayGoat]

Mo Williams > Pippen

[ShawkFactory]

You're just mad because I've discovered an entire new line of attack against Lebron... :roll:

The bum never won MVP without an all-star to open up his game.. He can't shoot over defenses, so his penetrator skillset benefits greatly from elite spacing - his game isn't MVP-caliber without it and his teams aren't elite without it as we saw in 2008 and 2009.

Your line of attack is based on nothing but dishonest musings from your own narrative. Why would that make me mad?

This one will be easily refuted like many of the others, and you'll either ignore it an continue to post so that you can have those conversations with others who haven't already refuted or you'll just move on to the next.

Like..why would it matter that his 3pt and FT% both increased dramatically between 2008 and 2009, thus providing the bulk of the TS% boost we saw?

Why would it matter that in 2008, the 7 highest contributors after Lebron missed an average of 37 games? Yes, that is 100% true. Lebron missed 7 himself and the team went...0-7 in those games :lol

Comparing to 09 when 2-8 missed an average of 13. That couldn't be important in a teams improvement though, could it?

It also wouldn't matter that Lebron was still 23 years old and improving his game (peep the shooting volume and efficiency between 08 and 09; quite a difference).

None of the real stuff matters.

Just continue along your narrative. I know it's fun.

[Phoenix]

The Cavs did many new things with Mo:



1) underdogs to league favorite

2) top 20 to top 5 on offense and defense

3) #16 to #1 SRS

4) Lebron became MVP-caliber (needs elite spacing to be MVP-caliber)


For Lebron to reach MVP-caliber, he needed an all-star teammate to open things up for him.

Otoh, MJ won MVP in 1988 with a bum cast and no spacing..

Unlike Lebron, expert jumpshooters like MJ can shoot over defenses and therefore don't need spacing/wide driving lanes...

Ultimately, Lebron could never win 66 games with a lane-clogger like Pippen or without an elite-shooting team - do you agree with this?.. He won with Wade but that was with the best 3-point shooting in the league and HOF Bosh/Allen playing spot-up roles.

All of that and the Cavs still ended up not doing anything with Mo they hadn't already done the prior two seasons.

BTW Lebron was 2nd in MVP voting in 2006, 3 years before Mo showed up. Basically if the Suns had fallen off a cliff due to Amare missing the year, Lebron would have won MVP. Sound pretty 'MVP caliber' to me without Mo.

[Phoenix]

The historical record shows that Lebron was below Kobe, CP3 and KG for MVP in 2008



It also shows he was 2nd in 2006, above Kobe, KG and CP3, Check your historical records again.

[3ba11]

why would it matter that his 3pt and FT% both increased dramatically between 2008 and 2009, thus providing the bulk of the TS% boost we saw?





At-rim attack made up the vast majority of his shot attempts, while three-pointers were a tiny fraction






Why would it matter that in 2008, the 7 highest contributors after Lebron missed an average of 37 games? Yes, that is 100% true. Lebron missed 7 himself and the team went...0-7 in those games :lol





It wasn't just 2008 - Lebron won 45-50 games for three straight years before Mo arrived to provide the elite spacing Lebron needs to have an elite team and be MVP-caliber






It also wouldn't matter that Lebron was still 23 years old and improving his game (peep the shooting volume and efficiency between 08 and 09; quite a difference).





That's what elite spacing does for penetrators... :confusedshrug:

Mo provided the spacing that Lebron's game needs to be MVP-caliber and have an elite team - that's the historical record

[3ba11]

It also shows he was 2nd in 2006, above Kobe, KG and CP3, Check your historical records again.


^^^ Lebron's game and teams were getting more stagnant and predictable by 2008

there was a low ceiling to Lebron's brand of ball until Mo provided the elite spacing needed to make Lebron's game more impactful..

Lebron's skillset needs elite spacing to be MVP-caliber and have an elite team.

[ShawkFactory]

At-rim attack made up the vast majority of his shot attempts, while three-pointers were a tiny fraction



Just...blatantly false.

[Phoenix]

^^^ Lebron's game and teams were getting more stagnant and predictable by 2008 - there was a low ceiling to Lebron's brand of ball until Mo provided the elite spacing needed to make Lebron's game more impactful.. Lebron's skillset needs elite spacing to be MVP-caliber and have an elite team.

That has nothing to do with my post. You said Lebron didn't become 'MVP caliber' until Mo showed up and listed him behind Kobe, KG and CP3 as demonstrative of that. If you consider CP3 to be 'MVP caliber' in 2008 placing 2nd to Kobe, then Lebron would also be 'MVP caliber' placing 2nd in 2006 to Nash. So the historical record two years earlier than the season you cherry-picked( 2008) showed that Lebron was in fact "MVP caliber' without Mo. Your own argument beat you but that's par for the course.

[RRR3]

That has nothing to do with my post. You said Lebron didn't become 'MVP caliber' until Mo showed up and listed him behind Kobe, KG and CP3 as demonstrative of that. If you consider CP3 to be 'MVP caliber' in 2008 placing 2nd to Kobe, then Lebron would also be 'MVP caliber' placing 2nd in 2006 to Nash. So the historical record two years earlier than the season you cherry-picked( 2008) showed that Lebron was in fact "MVP caliber' without Mo. Your own argument beat you but that's par for the course.
He’s so incredibly stupid it honestly is painful to witness.

[3ba11]

That has nothing to do with my post. You said Lebron didn't become 'MVP caliber' until Mo showed up and listed him behind Kobe, KG and CP3 as demonstrative of that. If you consider CP3 to be 'MVP caliber' in 2008 placing 2nd to Kobe, then Lebron would also be 'MVP caliber' placing 2nd in 2006 to Nash. So the historical record two years earlier than the season you cherry-picked( 2008) showed that Lebron was in fact "MVP caliber' without Mo. Your own argument beat you but that's par for the course.


I don't consider CP3 to be MVP-caliber because he never won just like Blake Griffin isn't MVP-caliber even though he finished 2nd too.

The historical record shows that Lebron isn't capable of MVP or an elite team without elite spacing and all-star teammates to open up his game.

It's just another reason that he's inferior to Jordan, who won MVP with lane-cloggers and a bum team of rookies in 88'... Jordan actually carried a bad team as MVP, while Lebron needed to realize synergies with an elite-spacer and all-star to be MVP - see the thread title

[StrongLurk]

OP is mad as hell...down real bad

[3ba11]

OP is mad as hell...down real bad


Phoenix sharpened my arguments so there's no holes in it, as the last post/exchange between me and Phoenix shows.. I'm pretty sure that's it.. all leaks plugged

[StrongLurk]

Phoenix sharpened my arguments so there's no holes in it, as the last post/exchange between me and Phoenix shows.. I'm pretty sure that's it.. all leaks plugged

No idea what this post is referencing...I just hope that you aren't rambling on about Lebron James when you are breathing you lasts breaths...although it wouldn't surprise anyone.

[3ba11]

No idea what this post is referencing...I just hope that you aren't rambling on about Lebron James when you are breathing you lasts breaths...although it wouldn't surprise anyone.


You're the Lebron fan - you actually like Lebron as a ballplayer

[Phoenix]

I don't consider CP3 to be MVP-caliber because he never won just like Blake Griffin isn't MVP-caliber even though he finished 2nd too.

The historical record shows that Lebron isn't capable of MVP or an elite team without elite spacing and all-star teammates to open up his game.

It's just another reason that he's inferior to Jordan, who won MVP with lane-cloggers and a bum team of rookies in 88'... Jordan actually carried a bad team as MVP, while Lebron needed to realize synergies with an elite-spacer and all-star to be MVP - see the thread title

And if you did, the fact that I've brought that to the fore means you now have to deny it anyway in order to stick with your agenda.

You've also got( or had, it changes by the week) Kawhi in your top 10 and he's never won MVP. Or are you going to twist it and say because he won finals MVP that he's MVP caliber?

[Phoenix]

Phoenix sharpened my arguments so there's no holes in it, as the last post/exchange between me and Phoenix shows.. I'm pretty sure that's it.. all leaks plugged

No.

[StrongLurk]

You're the Lebron fan - you actually like Lebron as a ballplayer

Lebron haters obsess far more over Lebron than his actual fans. You are the one posting hundreds of thousands of topics about Lebron, not me.

What's hilarious is you didn't deny at all the possibility that you'll be rambling about Lebron during your last moments alive...you just tried to redirect my comment to me and act like doing so would be "normal" and I would be doing the same thing.

Get help dude.

[3ba11]

No.


You just did in the last exchange.

You informed me that using the term MVP "caliber" leaves some ambiguity, so the term "capable" is better and infact more historically-accurate, aka Lebron isn't capable of MVP without the all-star teammate and elite spacing to open up his game/drives.. indeed, Lebron was just CP3-level in 2008 and not Kobe-level (MVP -caliber)

[Phoenix]

You just did in the last exchange.

You informed me that using the term MVP "caliber" leaves some ambiguity, so the term "capable" is better and infact more historically-accurate, aka Lebron isn't capable of MVP without the all-star teammate and elite spacing to open up his game/drives.. indeed, Lebron was just CP3-level in 2008 and not Kobe-level (MVP -caliber)

No.

[3ba11]

No.


Yup

And ty

[Phoenix]

Yup

And ty

No.

And ty

[3ba11]

No.

And ty


Stay in denial if you prefer, but these narratives will come up again because they're now fine-tuned and congruent with the historical record

It's a clear-cut demonstration of Jordan's superior dominance (being MVP with lane-cloggers and a bum team instead of needing another all-star and elite spacing to open up his game)

Jordan also won 2 titles with the worst -shooting team in the league, while Lebron never won without a team that was top 10 in three-point efficiency

[Phoenix]

Stay in denial if you prefer, but these narratives will come up again because they're now fine-tuned and congruent with the historical record

It's a clear-cut demonstration of Jordan's superior dominance (being MVP with lane-cloggers and a bum team instead of needing another all-star and elite spacing to open up his game)

Jordan also won 2 titles with the worst -shooting team in the league, while Lebron never won without a team that was top 10 in three-point efficiency


























































































































No.

[Axe]

Lebron haters obsess far more over Lebron than his actual fans. You are the one posting hundreds of thousands of topics about Lebron, not me.

What's hilarious is you didn't deny at all the possibility that you'll be rambling about Lebron during your last moments alive...you just tried to redirect my comment to me and act like doing so would be "normal" and I would be doing the same thing.

Get help dude.
So accurate af. He may not be currently a top 20 player anymore let alone top 30 but it's funny how he's still able to gather attention like this without too much effort. Tbf some have already been robbed of their sleep simply because of him alone.