How badly does a GSW win hurt Durant's 'legacy'?

[ThiccBoi]

Would GSW winning the finals confirm that KD is a massive fraud? How many all time slots does Durant go down? How many spots does Curry go up?

[AlternativeAcc.]

It doesn't

Warriors have the most stacked team in thr league, he was essentially replaced with Wiggins/Poole and a better bench

This run for Golden State is extremely weak and they avoided the champion bucks and 65 win Suns... so nobody cares about this shitty run

[FultzNationRISE]

If Durant stayed and Curry left they probably achieve the same results.

Teams matter more than individuals

[ThiccBoi]

It doesn't

Warriors have the most stacked team in thr league, he was essentially replaced with Wiggins/Poole and a better bench

This run for Golden State is extremely weak and they avoided the champion bucks and 65 win Suns... so nobody cares about this shitty run

Winning is winning bro. Boston is a strong team, they beat the defending champs plus #1 seed Heat.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Winning is winning bro. Boston is a strong team, they beat the defending champs plus #1 seed Heat.

I don't give a damn

[Johnny32]

it's funny/ironic how it would hurt kd's and helps lebron's legacies.

[Im Still Ballin]

If Durant stayed and Curry left they probably achieve the same results.

Teams matter more than individuals

Woke as ****.


https://backpicks.com/2017/07/06/supporting-casts-are-more-important-than-stars/

Supporting Casts are More Important Than Stars

A while back I used 2002-2012 PI RAPM data to quantify differences in the “supporting casts” that surround a star player. The results were largely what we’d expect: That the players who surround a star (including other all-stars themselves) are hugely important in determining a team’s performance.

In the chart below I’ve graphed a team’s best player and his support based on how far they advanced in a season. I’ve also included min/max ranges for the supporting casts based on the data:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RAPM-Supporting-Cast-1024x720.png

The data reflects common sense. As teams grow better, the players surrounding the star grow better. Improvements to the star himself are correlated with more team success, but the supporting players on a team are more important to the team’s success than the star player. This is expected; basketball is not a one-on-one sport. Still, it’s nice to be able to quantify this with a decade of non-box score data.

The importance of supporting casts can be seen most clearly in the correlations. The correlation between the entire team’s individual RAPM values and its Margin of Victory (MOV) is nearly perfect (0.95). The correlation between the “supporting cast’s” RAPM and MOV is 0.91, but the correlation with a best player’s RAPM is only 0.68. So if we removed the star player from every team in the league, we could still reasonably predict who the best teams were based on the performance of the other players. We could not make this prediction by only looking at the stars themselves.

Graphically, we can see the relative lack of relationship between the top player and team MOV compared to the strong relationship between the supporting players and team MOV:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/RAPM-Cast-and-MOV-Correlation-1024x754.png

Finally, note the vast disparity in supporting cast among non-playoff teams. The floor for a playoff team and the floor for a non-playoff team are separated by 10 points! Literally, off the chart.

Methodology

- “Best Player” is defined by the player with best minute-weighted RAPM for a team for a season. For example, if Player A has +5 RAPM and Player B a +4 RAPM but Player B plays 100% of the minutes and Player A 50% of the team minutes, Player B is credited with a “4” lift to the team and is thus considered their best player. (B would have a +2.5 lift).

- “Supporting Cast” is defined by the minute-weighted totals of all other players on the team, summed together.

- For traded players, the total season RAPM value was used

- For minute-weighted totals, only players with 300 MP were considered

[HylianNightmare]

What legacy

[BigShotBob]

Winning is winning bro. Boston is a strong team, they beat the defending champs plus #1 seed Heat.

Injuries

[Hey Yo]

Would GSW winning the finals confirm that KD is a massive fraud? How many all time slots does Durant go down? How many spots does Curry go up?

How can Curry go up when he was part of the KD recruiting process for most of their 73 win season?

[Full Court]

It doesn't hurt it nearly as much as him getting eliminated in the first round does.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It wouldn't help lol

Winning a title and Steph securing a FMVP gives credence to Chuck's "bus rider" comment. Which is hilarious because Barkley is never right. :lol

[SATAN]

KD went ultra ballhog mode and threw up an all ball in the final seconds resulting in a playoff exit. This season was worse.

I can't take him seriously enough to rank in the first place.

[Stephonit]

It doesn't affect Durant at all. GSW already won a championship without him. What would be new for us to learn?

[SouBeachTalents]

It doesn't affect Durant at all. GSW already won a championship without him. What would be new for us to learn?
Idk, getting swept in the first round while playing like shit while Curry proceeds to beat the same team playing significantly better wouldn't be a good look :lol

[Shooter]

The cuck that formed a superteam with Harden and Kyrie, only to be stopped in the weak East 3 years in a row before even making a Conference Finals?

[Lakers Legend#32]

It hurts Steph's legacy.

He could only have a chance to win Finals MVP once Durant left.

[Nb1]

When he was there he was their best player, so it actually hurts GSW players more individually. Which means they’re an amazing team, but also anyone could come in and win a chip in that team and still be the best player.

If he wasn’t considered their best player unanimously it would have hurt him. But since he was the best over there, just means that he’s above all of them and they would have won more chips with him anyway.

[TheGoatest]

I knew that the cowardly move of stacking himself on top of a 73-9 team that had just eliminated him in the western conference finals would come back to haunt him.
I said this the day he pulled off this cowardly move.
His legacy is completely FUBAR'd. Theoretically, he could repair it somewhat if he went on to win with the Nets, but a lot of luck and opponent-contra-teammate injury stars would have to align for him to do this at the age of 34 against a Celtics team that should be even better next season and a presumably healthy Bucks team. And that's just the east.

[ImKobe]

It does nothing for KD's legacy. This is a different team with pieces that were not present when KD was a Warrior. Him agreeing to a S&T led to them having the assets to get Wiggins, and they also added Poole and Porter on top of that. Warriors won 2 out of 2 with KD and had arguably the most dominant title run in NBA history with him, they haven't been close to as dominant without him in the POs.

[Sulico]

Pretty badly. Imagine Pippen winning in 1994. MJ legacy wouldn't be the same.

[DMAVS41]

It does nothing for KD's legacy. This is a different team with pieces that were not present when KD was a Warrior. Him agreeing to a S&T led to them having the assets to get Wiggins, and they also added Poole and Porter on top of that. Warriors won 2 out of 2 with KD and had arguably the most dominant title run in NBA history with him, they haven't been close to as dominant without him in the POs.

Of course it impacts it.

All the people saying they couldn't win without Durant would be objectively proven wrong. If this Warriors team wins...they'd be winning with diminished versions of Klay / Dray...it calls into question, even more now, of just how important Durant was to those titles.

And, fair or not, Durant has no noteworthy results outside of the Warriors for an all-time great to warrant where a lot of people place him in the all-time rankings.

A title for the Warriors here would absolutely impact his legacy...at least in the present. He's basically played with a current all-nba teammate every year of his prime...and never won a title as the true leader of a team. That will rightly be part of his legacy if that is how his career ends.

[Im Still Ballin]

It clearly does affect his legacy and anyone saying otherwise is being willfully ignorant. The first thing we must understand is what a 'legacy' is.

A legacy is just a bunch of perceptions. It's a player's reputation, what people think of him as a basketball player, how good he was. It's the idea of Kevin Durant within people's minds.

That's all. That's all it is.

[DMAVS41]

It clearly does affect his legacy and anyone saying otherwise is being willfully ignorant. The first thing we must understand is what a 'legacy' is.

A legacy is just a bunch of perceptions. It's a player's reputation, what people think of him as a basketball player, how good he was. It's the idea of Kevin Durant within people's minds.

That's all. That's all it is.

I think what a player accomplishes is also part of it.

With Durant...part of his legacy is winning MVP and two finals mvp's...part of his legacy is bailing on the Thunder with a championship level supporting cast to join the 73 win Warriors...and, if the Warriors win again without him, part of his legacy will be that he really wasn't needed for the Warriors to have championship level success.

The Warriors being good enough to win titles without him was obvious to anyone with a brain of course, but in sports you have to prove shit...right now...the Durant fans can still hold onto the narratives that the title in 15 was lucky, Steph missed the playoffs last year...and if the Warriors lose...they couldn't win without KD bailing them out...etc.

Now, even if the Warriors lose...this is a terrible look for KD because very few teams in NBA history could lose a player like Durant and still be easily making the finals like the Warriors did in 19 and now in 22...but a title and finals MVP for Steph...that does and should objectively impact the legacy of Durant.

[bdonovan]

Woke as ****.

No offense but this appears to be junk science. Unless you can show the supporting cast's performance with the best player off the court and compare it to when he's on the court. Simply subtracting the RAPM and MOV of the best player and evaluating the performance of the rest of the players ignores the fact that their metrics increase with the presence of the best player on the court.

IE:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/klay-thompson-stats-without-steph-curry

Klay's FG and 3 PT % are down without Steph for example.

This is a point I meant to make on a separate thread. Sports fans use statistics but the conclusions they draw from the data cannot be supported by the data. It's not enough to use acronyms and statistics terminology.

[bdonovan]

If Durant stayed and Curry left they probably achieve the same results.

Teams matter more than individuals

Unfortunately for the logic of this argument, individuals (star players) build the team culture, work ethic, and group strategy which is crucial for winning.

If people after watching the Warriors win where the second biggest contributor is andrew wiggins, and can't figure out how Curry's read-respond motion offense is responsible for winning games, they are thinking on a FAR too individualistic and atomized level. In other words, they've learned nothing over the years. You can tabulate the quality individual players on a number of teams- the Nets - for example and assume on that talent basis, they should win. But they won't. Winning basketball has very little to do with the 'sum of their parts'.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think what a player accomplishes is also part of it.

With Durant...part of his legacy is winning MVP and two finals mvp's...part of his legacy is bailing on the Thunder with a championship level supporting cast to join the 73 win Warriors...and, if the Warriors win again without him, part of his legacy will be that he really wasn't needed for the Warriors to have championship level success.

The Warriors being good enough to win titles without him was obvious to anyone with a brain of course, but in sports you have to prove shit...right now...the Durant fans can still hold onto the narratives that the title in 15 was lucky, Steph missed the playoffs last year...and if the Warriors lose...they couldn't win without KD bailing them out...etc.

Now, even if the Warriors lose...this is a terrible look for KD because very few teams in NBA history could lose a player like Durant and still be easily making the finals like the Warriors did in 19 and now in 22...but a title and finals MVP for Steph...that does and should objectively impact the legacy of Durant.
One of the dumbest narratives that resulted from that move was that the Warriors need KD to be a championship team. People watched this team over the previous 2 years win 140 games, a championship, then come within 1-2 plays of another, and thought this squad needed peak Kevin Durant to win a championship :lol Despite them winning like 6 playoff games in a row without him in 2019, and having a real possibility of winning it all if Klay stayed healthy, that narrative still persisted for years. I know they've added Wiggins/Poole, but just the fact they're on the verge of winning another chip all these years later with their core players now all in their mid 30's speaks volumes.

[BigShotBob]

One of the dumbest narratives that resulted from that move was that the Warriors need KD to be a championship team. People watched this team over the previous 2 years win 140 games, a championship, then come within 1-2 plays of another, and thought this squad needed peak Kevin Durant to win a championship :lol Despite them winning like 6 playoff games in a row without him in 2019, and having a real possibility of winning it all if Klay stayed healthy, that narrative still persisted for years. I know they've added Wiggins/Poole, but just the fact they're on the verge of winning another chip all these years later with their core players now all in their mid 30's speaks volumes.

The real issue was that as we've seen, if teams hone in on Curry and the complimentary players don't step up, the Warriors don't have a chance. Curry is always due for one bad game in the Finals. Always. That's just the nature of shooting. It happened in the 2015 Finals and the 2018 Finals when KD bailed him and Klay out in Game 3 against Cleveland. Where KD had 43 and Steph had 12....

This Boston team wouldn't have made it past a healthy Bucks team anyways and Tatum is playing at an all time low (if he played like this against the Bucks or the Heat for the series then they would have beaten the Celtics) so I don't see how it matters. KD was needed for a time, but not forever.

[DMAVS41]

One of the dumbest narratives that resulted from that move was that the Warriors need KD to be a championship team. People watched this team over the previous 2 years win 140 games, a championship, then come within 1-2 plays of another, and thought this squad needed peak Kevin Durant to win a championship :lol Despite them winning like 6 playoff games in a row without him in 2019, and having a real possibility of winning it all if Klay stayed healthy, that narrative still persisted for years. I know they've added Wiggins/Poole, but just the fact they're on the verge of winning another chip all these years later with their core players now all in their mid 30's speaks volumes.

Yea, I completely agree.

I've heard countless people say that Steph needs to win without KD to prove himself...when they've had it backwards the entire time. It really is pathetic how brainwashed people can get when they just don't like that a small guard that isn't a freak athlete is one of the best players ever.

Warriors were a dynasty level team before KD and are a dynasty level team without him. Evidence is clear...

[DMAVS41]

The real issue was that as we've seen, if teams hone in on Curry and the complimentary players don't step up, the Warriors don't have a chance. Curry is always due for one bad game in the Finals. Always. That's just the nature of shooting. It happened in the 2015 Finals and the 2018 Finals when KD bailed him and Klay out in Game 3 against Cleveland. Where KD had 43 and Steph had 12....

This Boston team wouldn't have made it past a healthy Bucks team anyways and Tatum is playing at an all time low (if he played like this against the Bucks or the Heat for the series then they would have beaten the Celtics) so I don't see how it matters. KD was needed for a time, but not forever.

I disagree, not completely, but mostly.

The only series those Warriors had a chance of losing with a decent player in place of KD...was the Rockets series...and they probably win anyway once Paul got hurt.

Again...they won a title, won 73 games, were within a shot or two at another title, made the finals in 19 without KD, and are now one game away from another title years later with the same core...with two of the core not playing at their peak levels.

The debate is over...even with just this Finals trip...a title in a few days? With Steph playing great against the same team that Durant looked shook against in a round 1 sweep with an all-nba level teammate?

Ouch.

[Wally450]

Makes Durant look like a guy that was just riding along on the bus.

[BigShotBob]

I disagree, not completely, but mostly.

The only series those Warriors had a chance of losing with a decent player in place of KD...was the Rockets series...and they probably win anyway once Paul got hurt.

Again...they won a title, won 73 games, were within a shot or two at another title, made the finals in 19 without KD, and are now one game away from another title years later with the same core...with two of the core not playing at their peak levels.

The debate is over...even with just this Finals trip...a title in a few days? With Steph playing great against the same team that Durant looked shook against in a round 1 sweep with an all-nba level teammate?

Ouch.

You're blowing it out of proportion. KD was a toe away from going all the way without Kyrie and Harden, and then COVID hits and Kyrie is gone for over half the season and Harden is hobbled and he gets traded for a player that doesn't even play. Injuries and lack of defense thanks to in the ineptitude of Steve Nash's coaching has decimated the Nets every season. This upcoming season with everyone coming back healthy and having an ability to mesh should work wonders.

You guys are making it seem like KD is retiring tomorrow. He has 2-3 good-to-great seasons left.

[DMAVS41]

You're blowing it out of proportion. KD was a toe away from going all the way without Kyrie and Harden, and then COVID hits and Kyrie is gone for over half the season and Harden is hobbled and he gets traded for a player that doesn't even play. Injuries and lack of defense thanks to in the ineptitude of Steve Nash's coaching has decimated the Nets every season. This upcoming season with everyone coming back healthy and having an ability to mesh should work wonders.

You guys are making it seem like KD is retiring tomorrow. He has 2-3 good-to-great seasons left.

I completely agree that he's not done and could potentially so something special.

My point is simple...to date, outside the Warriors, he hasn't done anything noteworthy compared to the guys he's routinely ranked above. He played with a teammate to make an all-nba team from 2011 through last year. That is insane levels of help...

And it is also insane to think that the team he left winning a title while he has only made 1 finals in his career (with great help)...won't impact his legacy. It absolutely will if it happens (I still have the Celtics actually)...and he'll have to lead a team to the title to overcome that.

And, honestly, that is how it should be...a player as great as KD should be held to the standard of doing something truly special at least once in his career.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Of course it hurts his legacy - the Warriors were competing for championships before he arrived, during his stay and now look where they are at now after he's left.

KD could have been on any team during 2017-2019 and the Warriors would have been and are just fine.


Unfortunately for the logic of this argument, individuals (star players) build the team culture, work ethic, and group strategy which is crucial for winning.

If people after watching the Warriors win where the second biggest contributor is andrew wiggins, and can't figure out how Curry's read-respond motion offense is responsible for winning games, they are thinking on a FAR too individualistic and atomized level. In other words, they've learned nothing over the years. You can tabulate the quality individual players on a number of teams- the Nets - for example and assume on that talent basis, they should win. But they won't. Winning basketball has very little to do with the 'sum of their parts'.

Solid post.

[bdonovan]

One of the dumbest narratives that resulted from that move was that the Warriors need KD to be a championship team. People watched this team over the previous 2 years win 140 games, a championship, then come within 1-2 plays of another, and thought this squad needed peak Kevin Durant to win a championship :lol Despite them winning like 6 playoff games in a row without him in 2019, and having a real possibility of winning it all if Klay stayed healthy, that narrative still persisted for years. I know they've added Wiggins/Poole, but just the fact they're on the verge of winning another chip all these years later with their core players now all in their mid 30's speaks volumes.

I documented on this forum over the 3 years Durant was with the team the defensive lapses he committed that often more than made up for the points he scored.

Infographics like this do not surprise me in the slightest (below).

Few watch defense; they ball-watch and count points. Team basketball includes team offense (screens, creating plays for others, etc.) and team defense (ie: help defense, not breaking the defense by losing your man) - in these areas, KD was highly deficient but stats do not track it and most fans don't bother paying attention.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUH2MZTXwAEgX1H?format=jpg&name=900x900

[DMAVS41]

I documented on this forum over the 3 years Durant was with the team the defensive lapses he committed that often more than made up for the points he scored.

Infographics like this do not surprise me in the slightest (below).

Few watch defense; they ball-watch and count points. Team basketball includes team offense (screens, creating plays for others, etc.) and team defense (ie: help defense, not breaking the defense by losing your man) - in these areas, KD was highly deficient but stats do not track it and most fans don't bother paying attention.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUH2MZTXwAEgX1H?format=jpg&name=900x900

It really is so absurd.

They went 27-4...and some of those wins were in the playoffs...where they easily made the finals without KD after he got hurt. Now, what do you know, they easily made the finals yet again after getting healthy...and are one win away from another title.

It is the worst look possible for KD and if this was Lebron...this forum wouldn't even be able to exist because the servers would go down every other day.

[Im so nba'd out]

If KD doesnt win another ring as the man I dont think anyone can even honestly ever rank him over Curry again. KD would also have the doors of the top 10 players ever slammed shut and closed on him.....forever. This is would be the biggest legacy damaging event to ever happen to KD's all time placement


Who am i kidding, just the fact that KD got swept by this boston team that curry is daddy dicking, he already will never be ranked over curry again....KD gambled and crapped out. He was actually deluded into thinking he controlled if they won rings. He was so obsessed with trying to beat LeBron in the Finals, that he left the western conference so that he could try to add to his Finals winning record vs lebron...Because he knows that ppl who never seen both of them play would just default to "well kd has a winning record vs him so he must be better".... He tried to bill russell his way over lebron (wilt) but it backfired in his face and now he has actually damaged his legacy beyond repair......idiot....


Now Kobe moves back over him
now curry is over him
now moses malone is neck to neck with him
now hakeem is back over him
now isiah thomas is back over him

:oldlol:


what a backfire :oldlol:

Now the dude is hovering around KG all time when he was just about to crack the top 10 all time

[John8204]

2019 - Leonard
2020 - Lebron
2021 - Giannis
2022 - Curry

I don't know if he has a "legacy" at this point. 2 rings, 1 MVP, and 30K scorer and the way he got those rings. The guy went from the clear 2nd best player in this generation and a top 20 lock to now a guy that's really going to have to fight to put in the top 30. Brooklyn was his baby that was put together to have a dynasty they didn't even win a conference championship. It's a big reason why you don't here me trashing Lebron for "colluding" because look at Durant he played with a much higher caliber of players and he could only win joining a 73 win team.

[DMAVS41]

2019 - Leonard
2020 - Lebron
2021 - Giannis
2022 - Curry

I don't know if he has a "legacy" at this point. 2 rings, 1 MVP, and 30K scorer and the way he got those rings. The guy went from the clear 2nd best player in this generation and a top 20 lock to now a guy that's really going to have to fight to put in the top 30. Brooklyn was his baby that was put together to have a dynasty they didn't even win a conference championship. It's a big reason why you don't here me trashing Lebron for "colluding" because look at Durant he played with a much higher caliber of players and he could only win joining a 73 win team.

We know enough to say he's an all-time great player...after that...we actually don't know much...meaning...we don't know how great he really is...because part of greatness is leading and overcoming and finding ways to win when it is really hard...reaching a new level...getting the most out of your teammates...performing your best when your team needs it the most...and he's answered none of that on the Warriors and outside the Warriors he's pretty much just failed every year at that.

We know that even with a current all-nba teammate...he loses...year after year after year....and we know that he runs to join the best team in the league even when he has championship level help on his current team.

Most players don't dream of playing with the kind of help he has...and as you point out...the results absolutely are not indicative of a top 10 player...not even close imo so far...I personally wouldn't put him top 20 because I think he's over-rated, but obviously I get why people rank him so highly...he's really good.