Another commentator saying Pippen was on Jordan's level in 96.

[97 bulls]

https://youtu.be/EDryId_BC3I

At some point, you Pippen haters need to admit that you're just that. A Pippen hater. Your arguments have absolutely no merit as to what the actual narrative was in 96.

Pippen was routinely considered a top 5 player in the league during the 90s. And just as valuable as MJ. Even though Jordan is the GOAT.

[La Frescobaldi]

https://youtu.be/EDryId_BC3I

At some point, you Pippen haters need to admit that you're just that. A Pippen hater. Your arguments have absolutely no merit as to what the actual narrative was in 96.

Pippen was routinely considered a top 5 player in the league during the 90s. And just as valuable as MJ. Even though Jordan is the GOAT.
Down at the pool hall talking hoops.

The agendizing people who show up on bulletin boards talking about teams and players that they obviously never watched don’t have any excuse for their foul stenchful foolishness

especially about 90s nba playoffs which film is widely and easily available to watch those games

_ B_ll in the corner pocket.

[1987_Lakers]

Oh no, now we have to see 3ball spam this thread nonstop like a crazy person.

[La Frescobaldi]

Who is already flushed in the corner pocket

[TheCorporation]

If Pippen was the one that took 2 years off to quit / rest up he'd be killing it and MJ would be breaking down.

[3ba11]

Oh no, now we have to see 3ball spam this thread nonstop like a crazy person.


There's nothing to squirm out of - you guys are the ones squirming by even posting this

Of course there will be a handful of times over the course of a decade and 6 titles that someone said "Pippen is just as good as Jordan!!"

Pointing that out means nothing and represents the "squirming" that you apparently feel when discussing the massive gap between MJ and Pippen.

But rather than going by 1 in a billion statements about MJ/Pippen, the historical record of performance gap tells the story - Pippen has the lowest peak capability in a playoff series outside the 1st Round of any sidekick in the 90's (22/5), and he's the only sidekick that never led their team (never a 1b), aka carried in every series.

[SATAN]

1-9

[sdot_thadon]

https://youtu.be/EDryId_BC3I

At some point, you Pippen haters need to admit that you're just that. A Pippen hater. Your arguments have absolutely no merit as to what the actual narrative was in 96.

Pippen was routinely considered a top 5 player in the league during the 90s. And just as valuable as MJ. Even though Jordan is the GOAT.

Nice find. Just another piece of actual truth rather than endless defensive narratives that have been created in MJ's name. I think it would be pretty cool for current fans and stans that were too young to grasp the actual media climate of the time to learn how everything really was. Its annoying to read made up scripts 20 years later.

[3ba11]

Nice find. Just another piece of actual truth rather than endless defensive narratives that have been created in MJ's name. I think it would be pretty cool for current fans and stans that were too young to grasp the actual media climate of the time to learn how everything really was. Its annoying to read made up scripts 20 years later.


Pippen was never reported on back then

Literally

No one paid attention to him because they knew he wasn't going to dominate

I haven't watched the clip btw. I don't worry about exceptions that prove the rule

[sdot_thadon]

Pippen was never reported on back then

Literally

No one paid attention to him because they knew he wasn't going to dominate

I haven't watched the clip btw. I don't worry about exceptions that prove the rule

Poor you, these things are never about what you want them to be about my man. People reported on Pippen because he was a member of the dominant team, the 2nd best player at that. So yeah he dominated. Just more cold water thrown on your stupid anti Scottie crusade.....which was retarded af to begin with, good day sir.

[3ba11]

.
Who's on who's level?



FINALS CAREER

Lebron..... 28 on 48%
Kyrie........ 28 on 47%

Jordan..... 34 on 48%
Pippen..... 19 on 42%


^^^ Obviously, the narrative that Pippen is on MJ's level is far more preposterous than saying Kyrie is on Lebron's level

Saying Pippen is on MJ's level is the fake news

[1987_Lakers]

.
Who's on who's level?



FINALS CAREER

Lebron..... 28 on 48%
Kyrie........ 28 on 47%

Jordan..... 34 on 48%
Pippen..... 19 on 42%


^^^ Obviously, the narrative that Pippen is on MJ's level is far more preposterous than saying Kyrie is on Lebron's level

Saying Pippen is on MJ's level is the fake news

Pippen was voted by ISH as a top 30 player ever, Irving wasn't even announced as a top 75 player.

[3ba11]

Pippen was voted by ISH as a top 30 player ever, Irving wasn't even announced as a top 75 player.


Pippen is the only notable sidekick in the 90's that 1) never dominated and 2) never led the team (carried in every series)

Every other sidekick peaked above Pippen's 22/5 (dominated) and routinely led their team in many series (not always carried like Pippen)

[3ba11]

Pippen was voted by ISH as a top 30 player ever, Irving wasn't even announced as a top 75 player.


What's the argument for Lillard over Kyrie or KJ?

They both dominated the league MVP in 90' and 16, while also making the Finals and multiple conference finals

That destroys Lillard

So you guys are all just wrong.. it happens all the time with today's media - they're wrong about literally everything

Again, anyone in the top 75 has a seminal performance like 06' Wade, 11' Dirk, 21' Giannis or 16' Kyrie... what does Pippen have?...

Pippen is the only notable sidekick in the 90's that 1) never dominated and 2) never led the team (carried in every series)

Every other notable 90's sidekick peaked above Pippen's 22/5 (dominated) and routinely led their team in many series (not always carried like Pippen)

[sdot_thadon]

.
Who's on who's level?



FINALS CAREER

Lebron..... 28 on 48%
Kyrie........ 28 on 47%

Jordan..... 34 on 48%
Pippen..... 19 on 42%


^^^ Obviously, the narrative that Pippen is on MJ's level is far more preposterous than saying Kyrie is on Lebron's level

Saying Pippen is on MJ's level is the fake news
Only because you're an Unga bunga caveman that only values scoring in a game with so many ways to contribute....

And of course in the grand scheme of things we know Pippen is not on MJ's level. But that's a snapshot of time in the 90s where maybe he was. 2nd 3peat Mj wasn't nearly as untouchable or unapproachable as 1st 3peat Mjs was, he was just a more experienced and smarter player by then. Still was my favorite version of Mj although he wasn't nearly the best version.

[3ba11]

Only because you're an Unga bunga caveman that only values scoring in a game with so many ways to contribute....

And of course in the grand scheme of things we know Pippen is not on MJ's level. But that's a snapshot of time in the 90s where maybe he was. 2nd 3peat Mj wasn't nearly as untouchable or unapproachable as 1st 3peat Mjs was, he was just a more experienced and smarter player by then. Still was my favorite version of Mj although he wasn't nearly the best version.

Pippen averaged less apg than Jordan for their Finals career, playoff career or regular season career, and Pippen never won DPOY, while getting less DPOY votes every year than Jordan.. So it makes no difference if we include passing and defense - Pippen couldn't get more than 7 apg and was never DPOY.

And MJ was still scoring champ for the 2nd three-peat and led all the advanced categories, while Pippen averaged 17 on 41% and was horrible.

So you're just delusional about Pippen.. Jordan literally doubled this bums playoff scoring average and assisted 30% more often

[3ba11]

What's the argument for Lillard over Kyrie or KJ?

They both dominated the league MVP in 90' and 16, while also making the Finals and multiple conference finals

That destroys Lillard

So you guys are all just wrong.. it happens all the time with today's media - they're wrong about literally everything

Again, anyone in the top 75 has a seminal performance like 06' Wade, 11' Dirk, 21' Giannis or 16' Kyrie... what does Pippen have?...

Pippen is the only notable sidekick in the 90's that 1) never dominated and 2) never led the team (carried in every series)

Every other notable 90's sidekick peaked above Pippen's 22/5 (dominated) and routinely led their team in many series (not always carried like Pippen)


Lakers guy ran

[sdot_thadon]

Pippen averaged less apg than Jordan for their Finals career, playoff career or regular season career, and Pippen never won DPOY, while getting less DPOY votes every year than Jordan.. So it makes no difference if we include passing and defense - Pippen couldn't get more than 7 apg and was never DPOY.

And MJ was still scoring champ for the 2nd three-peat and led all the advanced categories, while Pippen averaged 17 on 41% and was horrible.

So you're just delusional about Pippen.. Jordan literally doubled this bums playoff scoring average and assisted 30% more often

Scoring, scoring , scoring. With that you literally reduce MJ's legacy to that of a gunner, making him appear far more inferior than he actually was. Mj fam definitely needs a better field rep than you. I have no clue how you manage to make someone so great seem so shit consistently.

[1987_Lakers]

What's the argument for Lillard over Kyrie or KJ?


Lillard has actually led his teams to nice playoff runs in his career, including a WCF in 2019, also helps that he has been fairly healthy most of his career and I'm not even a big fan of him.

Kyrie on the other hand is injury prone and his time in Boston as the number 1 option backfired big time, his team actually played better without him, it's well known what a bad leader he is. :lol

[Round Mound]

Pippen was not in the same level as MJ. Nobody was. Pippen though, was a Top 10 Player in the 90's.

[Manny98]

Pippen wasn't as good as Jordan, not even close

But that's ok because he's still one of the greatest sidekicks ever

Let's not overrate Pippen

[ShawkFactory]

Again, anyone in the top 75 has a seminal performance like 06' Wade, 11' Dirk, 21' Giannis or 16' Kyrie... what does Pippen have?...



2 of the 4 you listed are in your top 10. And I have a feeling the other two aren't far behind.

What's this "top 75" talk :lol

It's like saying "any of the top 25 quarterbacks of all time like Peyton Manning and Drew Brees have done.."

[expansionera]

Pippen wasn't as good as Jordan, not even close

But that's ok because he's still one of the greatest sidekicks ever

Let's not overrate Pippen

The fact Jordan needed an MVP caliber sidekick to escape the first round suggest to me Jordan isn’t quite as dominate as the media likes for us to remember him

[MadDog]

Pippen wasn't as good as Jordan, not even close

But that's ok because he's still one of the greatest sidekicks ever

Let's not overrate Pippen

OP has a weird fixation with putting Pippen on Jordan's level. Despite Jordan engulfing Pippen in: scoring, efficiency, advanced stats and impact. Pippen was great in the 96 regular-season, sure, but averaged just 17/9/6 on 36% shooting in the playoffs. Great defense although putrid scoring and efficiency. MJ carried the scoring load while playing all-time defense.

Generally speaking, Chicago was a well oiled machine.

[97 bulls]

OP has a weird fixation with putting Pippen on Jordan's level. Despite Jordan engulfing Pippen in: scoring, efficiency, advanced stats and impact. Pippen was great in the 96 regular-season, sure, but averaged just 17/9/6 on 36% shooting in the playoffs. Great defense although putrid scoring and efficiency. MJ carried the scoring load while playing all-time defense.

Generally speaking, Chicago was a well oiled machine.

The argument can be made that Pippen was on Jordan's level as far as importance to the team's success (which is all that matters really). But I also stated that MJ is the GOAT, and that Pippen at that time was a top 5 player.

The point of me sending the video was to show how Pippen was perceived at that time as opposed to this revisionist history that Pippen was a bum being carried by Michael Jordan.

But as usual, many so-called basketball fans like the one I'm responding to that are casual followers can only rely on stats to make an unintelligent analysis.

[MadDog]

No an "argument" cannot be made. Jordan's impact metrics literally annihilate Pippen's. What Jordan brought to the team was simply harder to replace. Suggesting otherwise is just laughable.

[97 bulls]

No, an argument cannot be made. Jordan's impact metrics literally annihilate Pippen's. What Jordan brought to the team was simply harder to replace. Suggesting otherwise is just laughable.

Well, the facts (IE wins) tell a different story. Pippen wasn't a stats guy. He did what he needed to do to win. Jordan was a stats guy. Doesn't mean Jordan Isn't the GOAT, but Pippen is a great player. And was equally important ti the Bulls success.

[TheGoatest]

Doesn't surprise me. This opinion was pretty common throughout the 90s, when people were actually witnessing the impact of The Great Scott Pippen real-time.
Must've been the fact that the 1993-94 Bulls lost only two games less than their previous season with Jordan and then lost because one of the most bullshitty calls ever in the playoffs.

[MadDog]

Well, the facts (IE wins) tell a different story. Pippen wasn't a stats guy. He did what he needed to do to win. Jordan was a stats guy. Doesn't mean Jordan Isn't the GOAT, but Pippen is a great player. And was equally important ti the Bulls success.

They actually don't though. In 98, Jordan's win percentage without Pippen was better than the win % Pippen's Bulls had in 94. Using team stats to credit one individual is asinine anyway - but as usual you're wrong. Compared to Pippen's defense and extra rebounds and assists, Jordan's offense coupled with his defense brought more to the table.

In the playoffs and finals, the gap only widened. Having Jordan who could get you a bucket anytime in the half-court (unlike Pippen who shot miserably during the second 3-peat), or when the game is on the line, is what's premium here. It makes sense too, because Jordan's REAL +/- (isolated impact to the team) dwarfed Pippen's.

MJ was the man in Chicago. And his effect on the game was irreplaceable. Move on and accept it, fanboy.

[FireDavidKahn]

Pippen was never reported on back then

Literally

No one paid attention to him because they knew he wasn't going to dominate

I haven't watched the clip btw. I don't worry about exceptions that prove the rule

Madonna paid attention to Scottie "Tree Trunk" Pippen.

[97 bulls]

They actually don't though. In 98, Jordan's win percentage without Pippen was better than the win % Pippen's Bulls had in 94. Using team stats to credit one individual is asinine anyway - but as usual you're wrong. Compared to Pippen's defense and extra rebounds and assists, Jordan's offense coupled with his defense brought more to the table.

In the playoffs and finals, the gap only widened. Having Jordan who could get you a bucket anytime in the half-court (unlike Pippen who shot miserably during the second 3-peat), or when the game is on the line, is what's premium here. It makes sense too, because Jordan's REAL +/- (isolated impact to the team) dwarfed Pippen's.

MJ was the man in Chicago. And his effect on the game was irreplaceable. Move on and accept it, fanboy.

The Bulls replaced Pippen with Scott Burrell who was much better than the replacement that they picked for Jordan in Pete Myers. The 94 Bulls had Kukoc as a rookie, where as the 98 Bulls had a more established Kukoc. The 94 team had a very good PF in Horace Grant. The 98 Bulls had future hall of famer and all time rebounder in Dennis Rodman. Factor all that, and the Bulls W-L record was only slightly better in 98 vs 94.

Again, stats don't tell the whole story, Pippen wasn't concerned about getting stats, he was concerned about winning.

[SATAN]

Hey 97 bulls you might be interested in this video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj7k0nJC3gc

:lol

[Gohan]

If Pippen was the one that took 2 years off to quit / rest up he'd be killing it and MJ would be breaking down.

Are you this stupid? If all it took was taking seasons off from playing basketball then alot of superstars should take off.

[Baller789]

Are you this stupid? If all it took was taking seasons off from playing basketball then alot of superstars should take off.

Yes he is that stupid.
You are correct.

[MadDog]

The Bulls replaced Pippen with Scott Burrell who was much better than the replacement that they picked for Jordan in Pete Myers. The 94 Bulls had Kukoc as a rookie, where as the 98 Bulls had a more established Kukoc. The 94 team had a very good PF in Horace Grant. The 98 Bulls had future hall of famer and all time rebounder in Dennis Rodman. Factor all that, and the Bulls W-L record was only slightly better in 98 vs 94.

Again, stats don't tell the whole story, Pippen wasn't concerned about getting stats, he was concerned about winning.

But the 94 Bulls had Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong. Both were all-stars that year. :confusedshrug: The 94 team was deeper, and why many think they're the best version with MJ. In 98, though, Jordan carried on offense and was still very good on defense (1st team on that end).

You dont need "stats" telling you Jordan was their best offensive player (much better: shooter, finisher, scorer, in isos and triple threat; comparable playmaking as well). And a close second to Pippen on defense. What's more, the playoffs showed Jordan's impact had more weight. A lot more.

[Hey Yo]

Are you this stupid? If all it took was taking seasons off from playing basketball then alot of superstars should take off.

MJ was still under contract and getting paid to not play basketball in his prime. Don't think other owners would do that for their players.

[3ba11]

And a close second to Pippen on defense.





If Jordan was 2nd to Pippen on defense, why was Jordan DPOY and got more DPOY votes every year except 96 & 97'?

Why was MJ the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton, Miller and Isiah, while Pippen was almost never the primary defender on the opponent's best player?

Pippen was 9th for DPOY in 98' and Jordan was 4th, while Pippen got no votes in 93' and Jordan was 2nd..

And why do you keep saying Pippen averaged more assists when Jordan averaged more for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career?.. why keep lying?.. Pippen couldn't average over 7 apg (Jordan did many series) and Pippen was never DPOY, so Jordan was a better defender, passer and doubled Pippen's scoring (the only player that carried the scoring load in every series)

[Ne 1]

If Jordan was 2nd to Pippen on defense, why was Jordan DPOY and got more DPOY votes every year except 96 & 97'?

Why was MJ the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton and Isiah, while Pippen was almost never the primary defender on the opponent's best player?

Pippen was 9th for DPOY in 98' and Jordan was 4th, while Pippen got no votes in 93' and Jordan was 2nd..

And why do you keep saying Pippen averaged more assists when Jordan averaged more for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career?.. why keep lying?.. Pippen couldn't average over 7 apg (Jordan did many times) and Pippen was never DPOY

They finished tied for 7th place in DPOY voting in 91, tied for 3rd in 92 & Scottie Pippen finished ahead of him in 96 & 97.

[3ba11]

They finished tied for 7th place in DPOY voting in 91, tied for 3rd in 92 & Scottie Pippen finished ahead of him in 96 & 97.


So Jordan finished far ahead of him most years - how does finishing ahead most years make Jordan behind Pippen on defense ? Why are you lying about Pippen

[Micku]

Well, the facts (IE wins) tell a different story. Pippen wasn't a stats guy. He did what he needed to do to win. Jordan was a stats guy. Doesn't mean Jordan Isn't the GOAT, but Pippen is a great player. And was equally important ti the Bulls success.


I don't know about equal.

Like I know there players that you can't determine everything on stats, but this is different. While Pippen was really important to the team success, as stated, MJ posted up legendary advance metrics stats and +/- stats that are among the best in nba history. He is number 1 in the league history in +/- according to b-ball-reference. But there are many different plus/minus stats out there and what you prefer. Even in real plus/minus stats with epsn uses, it shows MJ being the best in the league in 97.

As you can see here:
http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/1997
All in the year 97.
MJ has OBPM of 5.15
DBPM of 2.47
total 7.62

Pippen has an OBPM of 3.87
DBPM of 0.90
total of 4.77.

MJ always lead the team in +/- stats. While the stats can indeed be deceiving, depending on what line up you use and how you use the stats in general; like comparing player a is better than player b on a different team cuz he is better plus/minus. That's the wrong way to use it. But using on the same team, that's more crucial in depending which player provides the most contribution on the floor. And granted, it really depends on the lineup, but MJ consistently was the best every year when he was on the bulls. In the playoffs, I believe it was closer in the late 90s....maybe? But MJ always edges out. He was always the best in the league except for a few years while he was with the bulls.

And that comment that commentator made, further proves the significance of MJ. Like Pippen "finally" is playing really good to be even on the level as MJ in terms of importance of the team. This implies he wasn't as important the years prior. And as the stats indicates, he still wasn't. And these are stats before it became popular. Imo, it just shows reconfirms how great MJ was during their dynasty.

Though stats don't always tell the whole story. Just cuz someone has a better DBPM doesn't always mean they are better defensively or vice versa. Pippen do things that the stats don't pick up and it also contribute to the wins. You do have players like that. Stats don't tell how you how great their communication is, how well they shut down a play entirely, or the right pass etc. It also depends on the sample size and how you use the stats.

But with that said, the stats of MJ are too great. His net value of the team is not only historic, it's among the league's best in nba history. And it's always among the best in the league the years that he played. As good as Pippen was, I think it's hard argument to say he was as important as MJ due to obvious statistical disadvantage on the same team. Not only do we have the eye tests, we had the raw stats and advance stats that came later. But he was no bum for sure. Even if you use raw plus/minus stats, Pippen was right up there with MJ. To show he ain't no scrub. The GSW subreddit posted up a stat recently to show how close Pippen was to MJ in those raw stats.

https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/s91hel/now_this_is_an_insane_stat_look_at_how_many/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

But again, it's how you use the stats and what stats you are using. Like the GSW pic for example, if you use the stats to say Dray is better LeBron 09, that is the wrong way to use'em. If you use it to say Dray was extremely important to the GSW, then that's better. Especially raw numbers.

But again, I ain't saying Pippen ain't great. Pippen was amazing and probably the best second option of the 90s you can have. At least it in certain years. But MJ was always better, the better player and more important than Pippen to the team in terms production. They aren't equal. And it's many stats. MJ had better clutch stats, offensive output of not only himself, but producing for the team, and defensively it was better some years and other years they were either equal or Pippen was better (especially in 96). Either way, MJ was elite on the d. But what separates mainly was the offense.

But Pippen was really great on his own right. Pippen was a perfect compliment to MJ. While MJ was the man, the way Pippen played was a significant reason why they were so successful. But this isn't a Curry/KD type of thing.

[3ba11]

I don't know about equal.


But again, I ain't saying Pippen ain't great. Pippen was amazing and probably the best second option of the 90s you can have.





Do you realize that Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers in the 92' WCF?

Every sidekick in the 90's was actually a 1b that led their team in many series - when did Pippen lead the Bulls alongside MJ?

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was carried in every series and also had the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)

In addition to having the lowest peak and being the only sidekick that was always carried, Pippen has the worst clutch resume (best choking resume) of any 90's sidekick

Btw, how can it be optimal for a sidekick to have a low peak capability that forces MJ to carry the scoring load?.. Carrying the scoring load isn't optimal and no one else had to do it in every series and playoff run.. it simply isn't optimal, so you guys are just lying about Pippen being a perfect sidekick... And don't talk about passing or defense because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg (Jordan did in many series), and never got DPOY (Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY votes nearly every year).. Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, so you guys just lie about Pippen.

[Gohan]

Do you realize that Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers in the 92' WCF?

Every sidekick in the 90's was actually a 1b that led their team in many series - when did Pippen lead the Bulls alongside MJ?

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was carried in every series and also had the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)

In addition to having the lowest peak and being the only sidekick that was always carried, Pippen has the worst clutch resume (best choking resume) of any 90's sidekick

Btw, how can it be optimal for a sidekick to have a low peak capability that forces MJ to carry the scoring load?.. Carrying the scoring load isn't optimal and no one else had to do it in every series and playoff run.. it simply isn't optimal, so you guys are just lying about Pippen being a perfect sidekick... And don't talk about passing or defense because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg (Jordan did in many series), and never got DPOY (Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY votes nearly every year).. Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, so you guys just lie about Pippen.

Noooooo dont do it to em 3ball… they only think pippen was so great cause bulls were winning:cheers:

[Micku]

Do you realize that Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers in the 92' WCF?

Every sidekick in the 90's was actually a 1b that led their team in many series - when did Pippen lead the Bulls alongside MJ?

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was carried in every series and also had the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)

In addition to having the lowest peak and being the only sidekick that was always carried, Pippen has the worst clutch resume (best choking resume) of any 90's sidekick

Btw, how can it be optimal for a sidekick to have a low peak capability that forces MJ to carry the scoring load?.. Carrying the scoring load isn't optimal and no one else had to do it in every series and playoff run.. it simply isn't optimal, so you guys are just lying about Pippen being a perfect sidekick... And don't talk about passing or defense because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg (Jordan did in many series), and never got DPOY (Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY votes nearly every year).. Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, so you guys just lie about Pippen.

We can go over how many times Pippen outscored the opposing team second option. In 93, I think he outscored opposing team second option consistently. Even in 92, he outscored and outplayed everybody on the Blazers, except for Drexler in 92 finals.

Pippen was consistently one of the best of his position in the 90s. And it was proven that he could hold the fort down without their main star. He was probably the best in his position for a stretch. In 94-96. And he was awarded with first all-nba team. But he was on the all-nba team for 5 out of the six championships. John Stockton was also similar.

I do agree and mention it depends on the year. It's definitely a year by year basis. You could argue Penny or whatever. Some other players too. But Pippen was usually up there.


Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was carried in every series and also had the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)
What did Ewing had? Hakeem before Drexler? Barkely? David Robinson? I would think most of the top players didn't have the quality of player like Pippen in their championship contender run except for Hakeem in 95. They had solid and balance teams.

Even the Lakers in 97 and 98, which I think had more talent than any team in the 90s, including the Bulls, didn't have a single player that was better than Pippen in his prime (aside from Shaq of course). Kobe wasn't there yet.

Which sidekick would you rather have that the Bulls opposing team had that they faced in the 90s? The only big one I could think of is Penny out of the top of my head. But you could argue specific years. Like Joe Dumars and James Worthy. Those early 90s Cavs team?

[Hey Yo]

They finished tied for 7th place in DPOY voting in 91, tied for 3rd in 92 & Scottie Pippen finished ahead of him in 96 & 97.

3chins got his ass handed to him.

:oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

Do you realize that Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) to carry the Blazers in the 92' WCF?

Every sidekick in the 90's was actually a 1b that led their team in many series - when did Pippen lead the Bulls alongside MJ?

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was carried in every series and also had the lowest peak capability of any sidekick (22/5)

In addition to having the lowest peak and being the only sidekick that was always carried, Pippen has the worst clutch resume (best choking resume) of any 90's sidekick

Btw, how can it be optimal for a sidekick to have a low peak capability that forces MJ to carry the scoring load?.. Carrying the scoring load isn't optimal and no one else had to do it in every series and playoff run.. it simply isn't optimal, so you guys are just lying about Pippen being a perfect sidekick... And don't talk about passing or defense because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg (Jordan did in many series), and never got DPOY (Jordan finished ahead of Pippen in DPOY votes nearly every year).. Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, so you guys just lie about Pippen.

Pretty difficult for Pippen to do when his teams ‘A’ is the GOAT. It’s intuitively more difficult for a sidekick to be a 1b when the A is better than every other sidekicks’.

[MadDog]

If Jordan was 2nd to Pippen on defense, why was Jordan DPOY and got more DPOY votes every year except 96 & 97'?

Why was MJ the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton, Miller and Isiah, while Pippen was almost never the primary defender on the opponent's best player?

Pippen was 9th for DPOY in 98' and Jordan was 4th, while Pippen got no votes in 93' and Jordan was 2nd..

And why do you keep saying Pippen averaged more assists when Jordan averaged more for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career?.. why keep lying?.. Pippen couldn't average over 7 apg (Jordan did many series) and Pippen was never DPOY, so Jordan was a better defender, passer and doubled Pippen's scoring (the only player that carried the scoring load in every series)

You're not hearing me. Pippen was better on defense certain years and vice versa. We're talking about 96, though, so if you wanna call Jordan better on that end, have at it. I never said Pippen averaged "more assists" either. What I said was Jordan's playmaking was comparable, and that he was MUCH better offensively.

Don't cut my posts and make up shit.

[3ba11]

.
Every notable sidekick in the 90's had higher peak than Pippen with various series where they dominated and led their team (1b):



* Penny demolished Pippen head-to-head in the 96' ECF and was considered a modern version of the robotic Pippen

* Payton has more all-defense and all-nba than Pippen, while being a co-leader with Kemp and being a regular 20/10 player (pippen never averaged 20/10 ever) - Payton was a better scorer, passer and defender than Pippen.

* Kemp was a superior, prodigious talent that barely scratched the surface of his potential but still dominated many series more than Pippen ever did including the 96' Finals or the 96' WCF (20/10 on 69% field goal percentage against Malone).

* Stockton had more All-NBA and is 8th all-time in BPM, while frequently being the team leader over Malone - heck, if Pippen's mid-tier playmaking helped MJ (5 apg), what would Stockton's goat playmaking do?

* Terry Porter averaged 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) in the 92' WCF to carry the Blazers to the Finals

* KJ dominated Magic's top-seeded Lakers in 1990 and was 1st option over Barkley in 2 series against Hakeem in the 94' and 95' Playoffs (28/5/9 for KJ)

* Grant Hill was obviously better and ragdolled Pippen so badly in head-to-head matchups that MJ would have to take over defending him as the game wore on - this is well-documented on Youtube

* Reggie Lewis averaged 28 ppg on a 10-game playoff run in 92' as the 1st option, which demolishes Pippen's 10-game run in 94' across the board (ppg, apg, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48)... stats here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?501312-This-was-the-biggest-shot-Pippen-ever-made&p=14524286&viewfull=1#post14524286)

* Reggie Miller drastically outplayed Pippen against the exact same playoff opponent 6 times (stats here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times))


So Pippen has the lowest peak of any notable sidekick (22/5) and he's the only sidekick that never dominated or led the team (never a 1b).

He's also the only guy that failed to reach Horry-caliber in the Finals over a meaningful sample - Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals, so Jordan won 6 titles with a guy that played worse than Horry's overall stats from the 95' Finals (18/10/3/3/2).. Pippen averaged 19.0 on 42% in 6 Finals, including 2 Finals of 15.7 on 40%.

Again, it's a low bar (pippen-caliber)

[3ba11]

We can go over how many times Pippen outscored the opposing team second option.





Outside of 94', Pippen was outscored by the opposing 2nd leading scorer in 19 of 41 series and had worst-ever westbrick efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg), so he was outplayed for the vast majority of series in his career.. This frequency (51%) barely qualifies him as a 2nd option in his career - he was actually outscored in 7 of 7 series without MJ from 99-03', so he was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer to attract all the attention and leave him "unguarded" (the title of pip's book).

But let's not look at the years where Pippen's poor play tricked off the title (88-90', 95', 99-03', aka the vast majority of his career) - let's just look at the title runs:

During title runs, Pippen outscored the opposing 2nd-leading scorer at the same frequency of lower-tier sidekicks like Klay, Pau, or Rip Hamilton (65-75% of series), and nowhere near the top tier of winning sidekicks like Curry, Kobe, AD or Wade that routinely outplay #1 options... So Pippen is in the lower tier of winning sidekicks, but his low peak capability and worst-ever efficiency makes him the worst of the group - his low peak of 15-22 ppg meant that he never dominated and basically tied his matchups, while his worst-ever efficiency meant that he was infact getting outplayed in most series.






We can go over how many good title runs Pippen had





Pippen had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, TS), and averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, so he was horrible for 4 of 6 title runs (45% true shooting in the 93' Finals).

Furthermore, his true shooting was below league average for every year of his playoff career except 89-91' and 02' (when he was mostly a role player) - so any notion that he could handle more volume is proven false by his worst-ever westbrick efficiency.

(One more thing - Bosh outplayed the league MVP in the 11' ECF just like Kyrie did in the 16' Finals and AD dominated Jokic in 20' WCF, while Wade outplayed fmvp Dirk in the 11' Finals - outplaying the league MVP or FMVP is the most help possible and only Lebron had it with all his sidekicks).






And it was proven that Pippen could hold the fort down without their main star.





In less than 18 months, Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round and then borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber.. After the surprise factor was over and the no-pressure or honeymoon period ended in the 94' playoffs, the REAL bulls without MJ were borderline lottery in 95'.

Ultimately, Pippen's playoff run as 1st option was historically disgraceful with so many chokes that it's hard to fathom... Every disaster that one would imagine without MJ actually happened in those playoffs... lol.. Pippen was a legendary embarrassment and confirmed everything that everyone already thought about him (soft, low-producer, not dominant, mentally weak, choker, can't take over games).






In 94-96. And he was awarded with first all-nba team. But he was on the all-nba team for 5 out of the six championships. John Stockton was also similar.





Stockton averaged 21/11 in the 97' WCF and made the historic series-winner in Barkley's face - this was superior performance to Malone's 23/11, and Stockton had many series where he led the Jazz like this.

So Stockton earned his All-NBA honors with actual PERFORMANCE, whereas Pippen was simply given All-NBA based on ring count and inflated by the winning spotlight.

Unlike every other notable sidekick from the 90's, Pippen had a low peak performance (22/5) and never led his team (carried in every series), while also having the worst clutch resume of all-time.






Ihe Lakers in 97 and 98, which I think had more talent than any team in the 90s, including the Bulls.. 98' Lakers didn't have a single player that was better than Pippen in his prime (aside from Shaq of course). Kobe wasn't there yet.





99' Kobe demolished Pippen in the 1st Round and was already far superior to any version of Pippen.

98' Kobe was also superior but he didn't get enough playing time.. Maybe Pippen was better than 97' Kobe for about 2 weeks to start the season.

And Eddie Jones didn't have the winning spotlight to get the accolades that Pippen got, but he was basically the same player as Pippen except superior offensively (he could really shoot the ball).. Again, pippen-caliber is a low bar - most guys were on his level.






Which sidekick would you rather have that the Bulls opposing team had that they faced in the 90s?





Why wouldn't Jordan win with a guy that could average 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) like Terry Porter in the 92' WCF - that's better than Pippen ever played, so why wouldn't Jordan win with that?

So the point is that guys of Terry Porter or Rik Smits' caliber who can stay healthy would win every year with Jordan in the 90's where expansion had spread the talent around evenly (2-star vs 2-star format)... Obviously, they wouldn't be enough to win in the super-team 80's (top heavy league) - Jordan might need a 3rd star or 1b teammate to win in the 80's.

Btw, Ewing had 1 or more teammates outplay Pippen in the 89' ECSF, 92' ECSF, and 96' ECSF - all losses... So I'd take Ewing's overall cast over Jordan's.

And if Pippen's mid-tier playmaking helped MJ (5 apg), then what would Stockton goat playmaking do?.. No one in history gets more credit for 5 apg than Pippen but he was just a mid-tier playmaker.. He was actually a garbage playmaker when compared to elite playmakers (which includes Jordan) because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg, while MJ could average whatever he wanted and he DID.. Pippen didn't have a handle that could break down defenders or average 30/9/11 at point guard, while Jordan did.







What sidekick did Ewing have? Hakeem before Drexler? Barkely? David Robinson?





^^^ Again, those guys had sidekicks with higher peaks that actually dominated and led the team in various series (1b), while Pippen was never a 1b or team leader and had lower peak - see previous post for specific proof of these assertions.

[AussieSteve]

There's nothing to squirm out of - you guys are the ones squirming by even posting this

Of course there will be a handful of times over the course of a decade and 6 titles that someone said "Pippen is just as good as Jordan!!"

Pointing that out means nothing and represents the "squirming" that you apparently feel when discussing the massive gap between MJ and Pippen.

But rather than going by 1 in a billion statements about MJ/Pippen, the historical record of performance gap tells the story - Pippen has the lowest peak capability in a playoff series outside the 1st Round of any sidekick in the 90's (22/5), and he's the only sidekick that never led their team (never a 1b), aka carried in every series.

Can you find any instances of any BBall commentators suggesting that any of LeBron's team mates were just as good as LeBron?

You may be able to with Wade. But he was a top 5 player in the league. So even if you found an instance of that, it would only serve as evidence that Pip was a top 5 player in the league in 96.

[3ba11]

Can you find any instances of any BBall commentators suggesting that any of LeBron's team mates were just as good as LeBron?

You may be able to with Wade. But he was a top 5 player in the league. So even if you found an instance of that, it would only serve as evidence that Pip was a top 5 player in the league in 96.


The media said Wade was on Lebron's level many times between 2009 and 2011, while they also said AD was the leader in 2020 many times throughout the season..

The difference is that Wade and AD actually led Lebron in the 2011 and 2020 Playoffs, while Pippen never did and was always CARRIED (far less than Jordan in every series).

It's night and day.. Pippen is inflated by the winning spotlight, while AD and Wade were the real deal..

Infact, Lebron is the only guy in history that had sidekicks outplay the league MVP (the most help possible) - Bosh outplayed Rose in 2011... Kyrie outplayed Curry... AD demolished Jokic... And Wade outplayed FMVP Dirk.. it's hard to articulate how far superior this is to Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Can you find any instances of any BBall commentators suggesting that any of LeBron's team mates were just as good as LeBron?

You may be able to with Wade. But he was a top 5 player in the league. So even if you found an instance of that, it would only serve as evidence that Pip was a top 5 player in the league in 96.

And that's the white argument. It has nothing to do with Pippen being as good as Jordan. It has everything to do with how Pippen was perceived AT THAT TIME. These guys want to argue (in my winey voice) "what about stats, what about stats?"

The consensus was that Scottie Pippen was at the least a top 5 player at that time. Again, it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree, IT WAS THE CONSENSUS!!!!

[97 bulls]

But the 94 Bulls had Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong. Both were all-stars that year. :confusedshrug: The 94 team was deeper, and why many think they're the best version with MJ. In 98, though, Jordan carried on offense and was still very good on defense (1st team on that end).

You dont need "stats" telling you Jordan was their best offensive player (much better: shooter, finisher, scorer, in isos and triple threat; comparable playmaking as well). And a close second to Pippen on defense. What's more, the playoffs showed Jordan's impact had more weight. A lot more.

I'd take the team that had two hall of famers playing at a high level over the team that had 2 fringe Allstars lol.

I already addressed the stats argument. Pippen has said many times, he didn't care about stats. Jordan did.

[3ba11]

And that's the white argument. It has nothing to do with Pippen being as good as Jordan. It has everything to do with how Pippen was perceived AT THAT TIME. These guys want to argue (in my winey voice) "what about stats, what about stats?"

The consensus was that Scottie Pippen was at the least a top 5 player at that time. Again, it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree, IT WAS THE CONSENSUS!!!!


The same number of people thought Pippen was top 5 in the 90's as people think Kyrie is top 5 now... So basically no one

Carry on finding exceptions to the rule or 1 in a billion statements and claiming it's "consensus"... I've never seen more desperate shit or a bigger fraud that people are defending

[97 bulls]

The same number of people thought Pippen was top 5 in the 90's as people think Kyrie is top 5 now... So basically no one

Carry on finding exceptions to the rule or 1 in a billion statements and claiming it's "consensus"... I've never seen more desperate shit or a bigger fraud that people are defending

Lol. How many people have Kyrie Irving as being in the top 5 today? You're argument centers around this notion that something can only be valid if EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD AGREES WITH IT. It's a strawman.

[MadDog]

I'd take the team that had two hall of famers playing at a high level over the team that had 2 fringe Allstars lol.

Rodman was nowhere near HOF level in 98. He was coming off the bench, and a shell of his 96 self. Grant & BJ were objectively better producers.


Pippen has said many times, he didn't care about stats. Jordan did.

Already educated you on the difference in impact. :confusedshrug: You don't need stats to tell you Jordan was a much better offensive player. And at worst, a close second to Pippen defensively

[MadDog]

The same number of people thought Pippen was top 5 in the 90's as people think Kyrie is top 5 now... So basically no one

Carry on finding exceptions to the rule or 1 in a billion statements and claiming it's "consensus"... I've never seen more desperate shit or a bigger fraud that people are defending

That guy isn't a Bulls fan. More like a "Pippen fan" lol

[97 bulls]

That guy isn't a Bulls fan. More like a "Pippen fan" lol

Bulls fan through and through. Just because I don't see Jordan the way you Jordan fans do don't mean I'm not a Bulls fan. I'm trying to prove they were much more than Jordan. But again, as I stated time after time and you choose to ignore, Jordan is the GOAT. I'm just not gonna sit here and let clowns that don't know nothing about Basketball past nerd stats shit on Pippen.

[MadDog]

Bulls fan through and through. Just because I don't see Jordan the way you Jordan fans do don't mean I'm not a Bulls fan. I'm trying to prove they were much more than Jordan. But again, as I stated time after time and you choose to ignore, Jordan is the GOAT. I'm just not gonna sit here and let clowns that don't know nothing about Basketball past nerd stats shit on Pippen.

I think the way 99% of basketball fans who've both played and watched do. Jordan's impact was superior to Pippen through: the eye test, stats and skills. No fanboy will convince people who live in reality different. :confusedshrug: I'm not arguing Jordan is GOAT either, so repeating that makes no sense.

[97 bulls]

Rodman was nowhere near HOF level in 98. He was coming off the bench, and a shell of his 96 self. Grant & BJ were objectively better producers.

GTFOH. Why? Because he wasn't scoring a bunch of points? Rodman was the league leader in Rebounds and shut down the 2nd best player in the league in Karl Malone in the NBA Finals. I've sent you the videos. You'd rather stay ignorant.


ready educated you on the difference in impact. :confusedshrug: You don't need stats to tell you Jordan was a much better offensive player. And at worst, a close second to Pippen defensively

Bro, I never said Jordan wasn't a better scorer. That's your argument. I'm talking about success, wins, results. You're the one that keeps trying to put this discussion into a vacuum.

[MadDog]

GTFOH. Why? Because he wasn't scoring a bunch of points? Rodman was the league leader in Rebounds and shut down the 2nd best player in the league in Karl Malone in the NBA Finals. I've sent you the videos. You'd rather stay ignorant.

When did I ever use points to describe Rodman? Don't strawman. Again, he was coming off the bench and checked out frequently that year. Jordan and Phil had to constantly motivate Rodman just so he could stay on track. His defense and rebounding fell off compared to 96.

Anyone who actually saw that team knows this is ALL fact.


Bro, I never said Jordan wasn't a better scorer. That's your argument. I'm talking about success, wins, results. You're the one that keeps trying to put this discussion into a vacuum.

I didn't just say scoring. You're trying to finesse and ignore what I mentioned earlier. Broken down, Jordan's overall game WHICH INCLUDES SCORING had more impact on the Bulls winning. Reality.

[97 bulls]

I think the way 99% of basketball fans who've both played and watched do. Jordan's impact was superior to Pippen through: the eye test, stats and skills. No fanboy will convince people who live in reality different. :confusedshrug: I'm not arguing Jordan is GOAT either, so repeating that makes no sense.

The wins don't say that though. And that's all that matters. That's why I say look at the results. Jordan leaves in 94, and Pippens injury in 98 netted literally the same results. Or a 1 percentage point difference. And I'd much rather have the 98 team minutes Pippen and Jordan over the 94 team.

Harper
Burrell
Kukocs
Rodman
Longley

Is better than

Armstrong
Myers
Kukoc (rookie)
Grant
Cartwright (old ass Cartwright)

[MadDog]

The wins don't say that though. And that's all that matters. That's why I say look at the results. Jordan leaves in 94, and Pippens injury in 98 netted literally the same results. Or a 1 percentage point difference. And I'd much rather have the 98 team minutes Pippen and Jordan over the 94 team.

Harper
Burrell
Kukocs
Rodman
Longley

Is better than

Armstrong
Myers
Kukoc (rookie)
Grant
Cartwright (old ass Cartwright)

That's cap. They absolutely do. Jordan's win rate was better in 98 than Pippen's in 94. You also left out Longely in 94 even though he was on the team :oldlol: Luc produced similarly both years. And again, Burrell can't compare to Grant or BJ who were both stars.

I don't care about your revisionist history and narratives. Remember: team stats was YOUR argument lol

[HoopsNY]

The wins don't say that though. And that's all that matters. That's why I say look at the results. Jordan leaves in 94, and Pippens injury in 98 netted literally the same results. Or a 1 percentage point difference. And I'd much rather have the 98 team minutes Pippen and Jordan over the 94 team.

Harper
Burrell
Kukocs
Rodman
Longley

Is better than

Armstrong
Myers
Kukoc (rookie)
Grant
Cartwright (old ass Cartwright)

Grant and BJ were at their peaks in '94. Not to mention, they were both All-Stars. One thing that should be considered, though, is the injuries the league had, which makes Pippen's '94 run comparable to MJ w/o Pippen in '98.

NYK: Ewing missed 56 games
ORL: Penny missed 63 games
MIA: Zo missed 24 games, Mashburn missed 34 games
NJN: Van Horn missed 20 games, Williams missed 17 games
UTA: Stockton missed 19 games
HOU: Hakeem missed 35 games, Barkley missed 14 games
MIN: Gugliotta missed 41 games
WAS: Howard missed 18 games
LAL: Shaq missed 22 games

Now I haven't gone through the league in '94 to see which teams were missing key players, but it would be interesting to see how many 1st, 2nd, or 3rd options missed significant time. It would also be interesting to see how many of the above mentioned opponents had to face off against Chicago without those players and how it compares to Chicago in '94 and who they faced without their key players.

[97 bulls]

When did I ever use points to describe Rodman? Don't strawman. Again, he was coming off the bench and checked out frequently that year. Jordan and Phil had to constantly motivate Rodman just so he could stay on track. His defense and rebounding fell off compared to 96.

Anyone who actually saw that team knows this is ALL fact.

https://youtu.be/eC0B-9Ma-8M

https://youtu.be/NWwI1_8WEco

https://youtu.be/EglLZwE_frI

https://youtu.be/Ftf0VIZ3Ibw


Perhaps you forgot

I didn't just say scoring. You're trying to finesse and ignore what I mentioned earlier. Broken down, Jordan's overall game WHICH INCLUDES SCORING had more impact on the Bulls winning. Reality.
My bad, you did say offense. I'm talking about results bro. Thus the 94 vs 98 comparison

[97 bulls]

Grant and BJ were at their peaks in '94. Not to mention, they were both All-Stars. One thing that should be considered, though, is the injuries the league had, which makes Pippen's '94 run comparable to MJ w/o Pippen in '98.

NYK: Ewing missed 56 games
ORL: Penny missed 63 games
MIA: Zo missed 24 games, Mashburn missed 34 games
NJN: Van Horn missed 20 games, Williams missed 17 games
UTA: Stockton missed 19 games
HOU: Hakeem missed 35 games, Barkley missed 14 games
MIN: Gugliotta missed 41 games
WAS: Howard missed 18 games
LAL: Shaq missed 22 games

Now I haven't gone through the league in '94 to see which teams were missing key players, but it would be interesting to see how many 1st, 2nd, or 3rd options missed significant time. It would also be interesting to see how many of the above mentioned opponents had to face off against Chicago without those players and how it compares to Chicago in '94 and who they faced without their key players.

Lol. We can apply that logic to any year. Pick one.

[Micku]

Pippen had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, TS), and averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, so he was horrible for 4 of 6 title runs (45% true shooting in the 93' Finals).


Are you talking about in history or in that specific playoffs?

Because in history? Eeeeeh. Hakeem with the Rockets had to carry hard in the playoffs as well. He has worse teammates when it advance. Lower than Pippen when it comes to PER. Unless you gonn'a say Robert Horry performed better than Pippen lol

And in that specific playoffs, he actually perform than Ewing teammates that year. And I think he was the third best player in the finals in 93, unless you wann'a say Dan Majerle or Kevin Johnson was better?

But I don't not mean to imply that MJ wasn't doing any carrying, because he did.



In less than 18 months, Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round and then borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber.. After the surprise factor was over and the no-pressure or honeymoon period ended in the 94' playoffs, the REAL bulls without MJ were borderline lottery in 95'.

Ultimately, Pippen's playoff run as 1st option was historically disgraceful with so many chokes that it's hard to fathom... Every disaster that one would imagine without MJ actually happened in those playoffs... lol.. Pippen was a legendary embarrassment and confirmed everything that everyone already thought about him (soft, low-producer, not dominant, mentally weak, choker, can't take over games).


By 95, they didn't have the same team. And as ppl said before, they didn't get proper replacement for MJ. You can't replace MJ, but a solid SG at the very least. Other than Penny who did the carrying when Shaq was out, I can't imagine another side kick tho holding down the fort in the 90s. Unless you wann'a talk about Drexler. Maybe Kevin Johnson? Since he was the best player on the team before Barkley got there. But his prime was cut short.




99' Kobe demolished Pippen in the 1st Round and was already far superior to any version of Pippen.

98' Kobe was also superior but he didn't get enough playing time.. Maybe Pippen was better than 97' Kobe for about 2 weeks to start the season.

And Eddie Jones didn't have the winning spotlight to get the accolades that Pippen got, but he was basically the same player as Pippen except superior offensively (he could really shoot the ball).. Again, pippen-caliber is a low bar - most guys were on his level.


Far superior? Hahaha! In 99? In what regard? Scoring? He wasn't better in defense, he wasn't better passing, and he didn't score enough imo to even separate themselves. In how he scored, sure. He was a bit too selfish sometimes. Didn't feed the ball to Shaq. He even commented on one of his interviews how he refused to give the ball to Shaq sometimes even when Shaq is all like, "Hit me young fella. I'm open." Kobe was like, "A'ight" and didn't pass him the ball because he felt they were just gonn'a foul him and send him to the line. And he was all like, "If you want to the ball again, you better rebound."

Eddie Jones is good tho. Almost underrated I felt, but I dunno about better than Pippen prime lol. But he was really solid.


Why wouldn't Jordan win with a guy that could average 26/6/8 on 52% three-point shooting (6 attempts) like Terry Porter in the 92' WCF - that's better than Pippen ever played, so why wouldn't Jordan win with that?

It's consistency and being the best at his position. Even with Terry Porter playing like that, Pippen was better than anybody other than Drexler in the 92 finals. Like Pippen performed better than in the finals against'em. And Terry Porter in 90 finals didn't perform as good either. But not to say MJ couldn't have won with'em. He probably could've. That Portland team in general was really talented.

While Pippen did lack the offensive prowse at times and MJ had to carry that load, he always brought it with solid playmaking and defense.




And if Pippen's mid-tier playmaking helped MJ (5 apg), then what would Stockton goat playmaking do?.. No one in history gets more credit for 5 apg than Pippen but he was just a mid-tier playmaker.. He was actually a garbage playmaker when compared to elite playmakers (which includes Jordan) because Pippen couldn't average more than 7 apg, while MJ could average whatever he wanted and he DID.. Pippen didn't have a handle that could break down defenders or average 30/9/11 at point guard, while Jordan did.



^^^ Again, those guys had sidekicks with higher peaks that actually dominated and led the team in various series (1b), while Pippen was never a 1b or team leader and had lower peak - see previous post for specific proof of these assertions.

Well, first Pippen has never been that dude. He is that elite of player to get those stats. He has never shown it nor capability. If he did, then the Bulls would've been more dominated than they were.

But in terms of playmaking, Pippen at his peak did average 7. I don't know how Pippen would do in another system in his prime. And Stockton probably play the same with the triangle. But under the Jazz system, it would be amazing due to MJ off the ball movement and on the open floor.

I get you if you wann'a say that other players had higher peaks. But a lot of them had shorter primes in the 90s. Kevin Johnson was a stud in the early 90s but he dropped off. Penny could've been better than what he was and had amazing upside but injuries got to them. Larry Johnson seemed like he was gonn'a be a dude to look out for, but injuries got'em.

Pippen stayed healthy...for the most part and was always one of the best at his positions. Him and John Stockton. That's why I feel he was the best sidekick of the 90s. The most consistent, perfect compliment, and he held the fort. If you wann'a say other players had higher peaks, I won't argue too much. But I'll argue Kobe tho. Hahha. At least go to Kobe 2000 was better than any version Pippen than 99. Haha

[Micku]

I think the way 99% of basketball fans who've both played and watched do. Jordan's impact was superior to Pippen through: the eye test, stats and skills. No fanboy will convince people who live in reality different. :confusedshrug: I'm not arguing Jordan is GOAT either, so repeating that makes no sense.

That's what I'm sayin. But you can use 89 too. You can use 88. You can use 90. You can use 98, which I think is really impressive given of how old, injured, and the drama the team was dealing with. You could use all the Bulls years tho.

It's a very hard argument imo to make that Pippen had a similar impact than MJ when not only the stats say otherwise, but we can see eye test and the skills. We see it when the Bulls are down, we see the offensive become stagnant, and we see MJ carry them. Not to say Pippen wasn't good, but MJ was on another lvl. He always was. Like watching the games in 88-90 was insane seeing MJ being all over the floor in both offense and defense. Granted, MJ didn't trust in his teammates as much as he did in second peat, but it's a bit exaggerated to a point or there have been players like Kobe who out did MJ in that regard.

But a majority says that MJ was superior. Pippen was important, but like I said..it's not like it was Magic/Kareem in the mid 80s, it wasn't KD/Curry. It wasn't 2011 LeBron/Wade. It's not like they were the same impact. It was clearly MJ. Pippen was second. Nothing wrong with that. Like I said, every statistically measure of both raw and advance says it, the clutch stats, and we can see the games. We can see the skills. And this isn't even about MJ being the GOAT or not. It just happens to be MJ is one of the bests to ever do it. But there is a clear difference of not only player skills set, player impact, and player ability.

It's a tougher argument for Curry/KD than MJ/Pip.

[Micku]

The wins don't say that though. And that's all that matters. That's why I say look at the results. Jordan leaves in 94, and Pippens injury in 98 netted literally the same results. Or a 1 percentage point difference. And I'd much rather have the 98 team minutes Pippen and Jordan over the 94 team.

Harper
Burrell
Kukocs
Rodman
Longley

Is better than

Armstrong
Myers
Kukoc (rookie)
Grant
Cartwright (old ass Cartwright)

I wonder what you think of Barkley for instance. He would say that his time in philly was his best years as a player. Like he think he peaked there. And the stats indicate it too. But with the Suns, he felt like he was on the better team, but he wasn't a better player than what he was in philly.

There are other players throughout history that are similar. Sometimes the wins aren't always the indicator that player a or player b figured things out and learned how to win. Like Kareem in the 70s was the better player than in the 80s, but he won more in the 80s. KG was better with the T'Wolves than he was with Boston.

With MJ, I believed there were ppl who thought MJ peaked in 96. Probably cuz of the 72 wins and the fadeaway was used more. But MJ himself felt like he peaked in 91. And that stats indicate it's between 88-91.

But I suppose what I'm asking is this, you don't think it's possible for a player to be better in losing effort than another player who is not impressive statistically, but still win? Because I think it depends.

[HoopsNY]

Lol. We can apply that logic to any year. Pick one.

I don't think you get my point. The '98 season had an innumerable amount of injuries for playoff teams' best players. Chicago, too, saw such injuries, but the point here is, Pippen lost MJ in '94 and won 55 games while MJ lost Pippen and had the team on a 56 win pace.

But unlike '94, MJ faced a lot of depleted teams. This is a credit to Pippen. Now to be fair, I haven't gone and checked how many games the Bulls faced with those teams without their elite stars (Zo, Penny, Shaq, Howard, Ewing, etc). But it would be interesting to see how that plays into it.

Longley and Kerr missed significant time, too, but that when Pippen had already returned.

[97 bulls]

I don't think you get my point. The '98 season had an innumerable amount of injuries for playoff teams' best players. Chicago, too, saw such injuries, but the point here is, Pippen lost MJ in '94 and won 55 games while MJ lost Pippen and had the team on a 56 win pace.

But unlike '94, MJ faced a lot of depleted teams. This is a credit to Pippen. Now to be fair, I haven't gone and checked how many games the Bulls faced with those teams without their elite stars (Zo, Penny, Shaq, Howard, Ewing, etc). But it would be interesting to see how that plays into it.

Longley and Kerr missed significant time, too, but that when Pippen had already returned.

I see what you're saying.

[97 bulls]

I wonder what you think of Barkley for instance. He would say that his time in philly was his best years as a player. Like he think he peaked there. And the stats indicate it too. But with the Suns, he felt like he was on the better team, but he wasn't a better player than what he was in philly.

There are other players throughout history that are similar. Sometimes the wins aren't always the indicator that player a or player b figured things out and learned how to win. Like Kareem in the 70s was the better player than in the 80s, but he won more in the 80s. KG was better with the T'Wolves than he was with Boston.

With MJ, I believed there were ppl who thought MJ peaked in 96. Probably cuz of the 72 wins and the fadeaway was used more. But MJ himself felt like he peaked in 91. And that stats indicate it's between 88-91.

But I suppose what I'm asking is this, you don't think it's possible for a player to be better in losing effort than another player who is not impressive statistically, but still win? Because I think it depends.

Sure that can happen. Look at Matthew Stafford of the Rams. Much like Barkley, his success came when he got more talent around him.

Again, I also believe Jordan is a better player than Pippen. But I also believe that their importance to the team's success is the same. And thats all I'm really concerned with.

Here's another point. Phil Jackson said one of the biggest changes from 90 to 91 was having Pippen run the offense. Essentially having Pippen become the point forward. Guess what? Jordan ran the offense with the same team in 90. The Bulls obviously did better with Pippen as the PG.

Gaudy stats have never told the whole story. Stats need to be taken in context. Pippen wasn't concerned with getting stats. I'm sure had he been concerned, they would've been better (not saying his stats were bad to begin with). But I also feel it would've been at the expense of the team's success.

Even with Barkley. Barkley never won because he was lazy on defense. And very cavalier about it. And I'm sure he has great advanced stats. Why did Bob Knight cut him? He was probably the 2nd best player on that 84 Olympic team. But he couldn't stay in shape. Or wouldn't stay in shape.

[MadDog]

https://youtu.be/eC0B-9Ma-8M

https://youtu.be/NWwI1_8WEco

https://youtu.be/EglLZwE_frI

https://youtu.be/Ftf0VIZ3Ibw

Perhaps you forgot

My bad, you did say offense. I'm talking about results bro. Thus the 94 vs 98 comparison

Yes, Rodman flustered him in a few of those games, but Malone still had 25/11 and shot 50% lol. Rodman was still a very good rebounder and definitely had impact defensively, but unlike 96, he made no all-defensive teams in 98.

What's more, he was also a distraction.


He is ruining the moment for the Bulls. Dennis the Distraction is rearing his chromatic head again. After he arrived late to practice last Friday, Coach Phil Jackson inserted Toni Kukoc into the lineup for Game 1 against the Pacers on Sunday. If Jackson was considering a switch for Game 2, Rodman made the decision easy when he pulled up to the United Center a half-hour later than his teammates on Tuesday.

Unhappy with the decision to bench him, the man who likes to put on his best dress and make like a model put on a pouty display for Game 2. Rodman sulked when he came onto the court, played passively and grabbed only six rebounds. Of course, simply getting him to the court was an incident in itself. During the first quarter, when Jackson turned to the sideline in search of Rodman, he was not there. Rodman was in the locker room. Apparently, he did not think he would be needed until the two-minute mark.

''It was irritating to have to send for him,'' Jackson said after the Bulls won Game 2. ''I'll talk to him and see if we can't set him straight.''

That's like trying to straighten a phone cord. Rodman is going to be Rodman. He has always alternated Good Dennis and Bad Dennis at his own whim. But this sideshow of his is wearing thin on the Bulls. Michael Jordan, especially. Instead of reveling in the Bulls' lead as this four-of-seven-game series heads to Indiana for Game 3 on Saturday, Jordan was unloading on Rodman.

''This is a crucial time of the season, and the last thing we need is this from Dennis,'' Jordan said with an edge to his voice Tuesday night. ''We've been unhappy with some of his antics of late, like being late for practice, not showing up when he should.

''We've always given him enough room to be Dennis. But when we come to work, he has to be here to work.''

https://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/21/sports/the-nba-playoffs-rodman-is-a-problem-the-bulls-problem.html


My bad, you did say offense. I'm talking about results bro. Thus the 94 vs 98 comparison

I'm also talking about results, 97. The 98 team had a better win percentage with older players and weaker talent. Jordan's Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus (not a boxscore stat) also bested Pippen. This means that when MJ was on the court, he had more influence on games.

[MadDog]

That's what I'm sayin. But you can use 89 too. You can use 88. You can use 90. You can use 98, which I think is really impressive given of how old, injured, and the drama the team was dealing with. You could use all the Bulls years tho.

It's a very hard argument imo to make that Pippen had a similar impact than MJ when not only the stats say otherwise, but we can see eye test and the skills. We see it when the Bulls are down, we see the offensive become stagnant, and we see MJ carry them. Not to say Pippen wasn't good, but MJ was on another lvl. He always was. Like watching the games in 88-90 was insane seeing MJ being all over the floor in both offense and defense. Granted, MJ didn't trust in his teammates as much as he did in second peat, but it's a bit exaggerated to a point or there have been players like Kobe who out did MJ in that regard.

But a majority says that MJ was superior. Pippen was important, but like I said..it's not like it was Magic/Kareem in the mid 80s, it wasn't KD/Curry. It wasn't 2011 LeBron/Wade. It's not like they were the same impact. It was clearly MJ. Pippen was second. Nothing wrong with that. Like I said, every statistically measure of both raw and advance says it, the clutch stats, and we can see the games. We can see the skills. And this isn't even about MJ being the GOAT or not. It just happens to be MJ is one of the bests to ever do it. But there is a clear difference of not only player skills set, player impact, and player ability.

It's a tougher argument for Curry/KD than MJ/Pip.

With regards to Jordan being a better player, you can use all those years dude. This debate just highlights what Prime Pippen brought versus Jordan. By most objective criteria, MJ had the bigger statistical burden, and his skills netted better results (look at their respective playoff & finals performances).

I agree that it wasn't a KD/Curry situation. Or even a Shaq/Kobe situation in 2001. Pippen was a great number 2 whose impact went well beyond stats. Nothing more, nothing less. The games are available on Youtube, so these weird narratives are funny.

[RogueBorg]

The consensus was that Scottie Pippen was at the least a top 5 player at that time. Again, it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree, IT WAS THE CONSENSUS!!!!

No, it was not a consensus. I was there, everyone did not agree Pippen was top 5.

1. Jordan
2. Olajuwon
3. Robinson
4. Shaq
5. Barkley
6. Malone

Pippen was not considered better than these guys.

[MadDog]

No, it was not a consensus. I was there, everyone did not agree Pippen was top 5.

1. Jordan
2. Olajuwon
3. Robinson
4. Shaq
5. Barkley
6. Malone

Pippen was not considered better than these guys.

If we're still focusing on 1996, Penny deserves recognition. He finished ahead of Pippen in MVP voting, made 1st team All-NBA, and had a career year statistically. Orlando was swept in the playoffs, but individually he played well throughout.

[97 bulls]

Yes, Rodman flustered him in a few of those games, but Malone still had 25/11 and shot 50% lol. Rodman was still a very good rebounder and definitely had impact defensively, but unlike 96, he made no all-defensive teams in 98.
Lol, a few? They only played 6, Rodman shut him down in 4 of those six. This is incredible.


What's more, he was also a distraction.



https://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/21/sports/the-nba-playoffs-rodman-is-a-problem-the-bulls-problem.html



I'm also talking about results, 97. The 98 team had a better win percentage with older players and weaker talent. Jordan's Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus (not a boxscore stat) also bested Pippen. This means that when MJ was on the court, he had more influence on games.

That's what you get with Rodman, but he came to play most nights. Rodman feels the league had it out for him and thus picked on him. But again, Rodman was still very effective. Even in 98. And Rodman was playing with torn ligaments in his right hand which made it very difficult for him to rebound. I do feel Malone got the best of him in 97. But it's Malone for goodness sale.

But going back to Malone, see what you did? You alluded to Malones stats. In that 54 point drubbing that the Bulls put on the Jazz, Malone was 8-11. I believe he was 7-8 on Longley, and only made one basket on Rodman. But he had a great efficient game. But they got their ass kicked. It's a prime example as to how stats don't tell the whole story.

[Hey Yo]

No, it was not a consensus. I was there, everyone did not agree Pippen was top 5.

1. Jordan
2. Olajuwon
3. Robinson
4. Shaq
5. Barkley
6. Malone

Pippen was not considered better than these guys.

:oldlol:

[FKAri]

A perfunctory, lazy comment made simply to highlight a player playing well. Nothing more. lol @ "on Jordan's level".

[sdot_thadon]

I think one of the biggest disservice we do in these conversations is, be completely unable, or unwilling to acknowledge different eras/versions of a player. You guys just casually say "Bulls Mj" as if 91 Mj = 97 Mj. Huge difference. Same applies for a guy like Scottie, during the 2nd 3peat he may have been twice the player he was beforehand. Mj during the 2nd 3peat was a lesser version of the goat. During the 1st 3peat Scotties impact was far lesser than Mike's was. However, during the 2nd 3peat I felt like he did just as much damage and had a comparable impact, albeit in different faucets of the game. We know Mj was the scoring wagon, no doubt. Hell he'd have never let it be any other way anyhow. Any Mj fan should know that to be true. Scottie did the other things at a pretty high level, and that's not to say he did these things "better" than Mj did. It's just that he filled those roles more often.

[MadDog]

Lol, a few? They only played 6, Rodman shut him down in 4 of those six. This is incredible.

In 4/6 of those games, Rodman only played around 28 minutes. Barely half a game. :oldlol: Again, he played Malone well but "shutting him down" is an exaggeration. Players don't get shutdown scoring 25 and shooting over 50%. I get you're obsessed with pushing a narrative, but we can't just ignore production.


That's what you get with Rodman, but he came to play most nights. Rodman feels the league had it out for him and thus picked on him. But again, Rodman was still very effective. Even in 98. And Rodman was playing with torn ligaments in his right hand which made it very difficult for him to rebound. I do feel Malone got the best of him in 97. But it's Malone for goodness sale.

But going back to Malone, see what you did? You alluded to Malones stats. In that 54 point drubbing that the Bulls put on the Jazz, Malone was 8-11. I believe he was 7-8 on Longley, and only made one basket on Rodman. But he had a great efficient game. But they got their ass kicked. It's a prime example as to how stats don't tell the whole story.

Chicago didn't have that headache in 96. Nowhere near as frequently which is my point. You cherry-picking a couple of possessions, in one series, and for half a game, doesn't excuse Rodman's inconsistent approach or lackluster effort. I'm talking about as a whole, which includes their entire playoff run.

He was benched for a reason, and it has nothing to do with stats.

[97 bulls]

In 4/6 of those games, Rodman only played around 28 minutes. Barely half a game. :oldlol: Again, he played Malone well but "shutting him down" is an exaggeration. Players don't get shutdown scoring 25 and shooting over 50%. I get you're obsessed with pushing a narrative, but we can't just ignore production.

And thus why I keep saying STOP BASING YOUR ARGUMENT ON STATS!!!! This conversation is whether or not Rodman was effective by 98. HE WAS!!!! 28 minutes per night is more than enough to make that determination. The NBA average for a starter is 36 minutes. One of the games he only played 22 because the Bulls won by 42 points lol. But again, casual basketball fans like you can only reflect on stats. Because you don't know much about the game lol (just joking).

Malone got the lions share of his points on Longley. Even Thomas said that Rodman shut Malone down in one of those videos.


Chicago didn't have that headache in 96. Nowhere near as frequently which is my point. You cherry-picking a couple of possessions, in one series, and for half a game, doesn't excuse Rodman's inconsistent approach or lackluster effort. I'm talking about as a whole, which includes their entire playoff run.

He was benched for a reason, and it has nothing to do with stats.

Did you even watch the videos? It was literally every possession where Rodman matched up with Malone. Not cherrypicked. And definitely not a couple.

I don't know what else to tell you. I actually show your the video, he led the league in rebounds, he stepped up and played big while Pippen was out. Your God Michael Jordan said so. I get that Rodman was a headcase at times, but he was always that. I think by an large, he was on his best behavior with the Bulls when compared to the Spurs and toward the end with the Pistons.

[MadDog]

And thus why I keep saying STOP BASING YOUR ARGUMENT ON STATS!!!! This conversation is whether or not Rodman was effective by 98. HE WAS!!!! 28 minutes per night is more than enough to make that determination. The NBA average for a starter is 36 minutes. One of the games he only played 22 because the Bulls won by 42 points lol. But again, casual basketball fans like you can only reflect on stats. Because you don't know much about the game lol (just joking).

Malone got the lions share of his points on Longley. Even Thomas said that Rodman shut Malone down in one of those videos.

Did you even watch the videos? It was literally every possession where Rodman matched up with Malone. Not cherrypicked. And definitely not a couple.

I don't know what else to tell you. I actually show your the video, he led the league in rebounds, he stepped up and played big while Pippen was out. Your God Michael Jordan said so. I get that Rodman was a headcase at times, but he was always that. I think by an large, he was on his best behavior with the Bulls when compared to the Spurs and toward the end with the Pistons.

You're not addressing the argument here. Again, there are 48 minutes in a game. Nobody is saying Rodman didn't play good defense on Malone. My gripe is that he only played like half the game. Rodman's inconsistency and lack of focus turned him into a bench player.

Those videos you posted also used numbers to illustrate Rodman's impact. Talk about irony :oldlol: You're so fanboyed out you dont even see that. All in all, Rodman's 28 minutes weren't nearly as impactful as his 38 in 96. And compared to 96, there's no way you think 98 Rodman was as effective. Even you're smarter than that.

[97 bulls]

You're not addressing the argument here. Again, there are 48 minutes in a game. Nobody is saying Rodman didn't play good defense on Malone. My gripe is that he only played like half the game. Rodman's inconsistency and lack of focus turned him into a bench player.

Those videos you posted also used numbers to illustrate Rodman's impact. Talk about irony :oldlol: You're so fanboyed out you dont even see that. All in all, Rodman's 28 minutes weren't nearly as impactful as his 38 in 96. And compared to 96, there's no way you think 98 Rodman was as effective. Even you're smarter than that.

I did address the minutes argument. I said, the average starter plays 36 minutes per game. Rodman was at 28. But his lowest minute output came in a blowout. Which means he wasn't really needed which is normal in blowouts. Take away that game 3 and Rodman averaged 32 minutes per game. Slightly under the average and more than enough to show he still had it. And he was playing with torn ligaments in his had which effected his ability to secure rebounds.

I'm not against stats bro. I said they must be put into context. But I'm big on results. Wins and losses. LeBron James is putting up great stat, but the Lakers keep losing. Russell Westbrook is a triple double machine. But his team's go NOWHERE. It's all about results.

[MadDog]

I did address the minutes argument. I said, the average starter plays 36 minutes per game. Rodman was at 28. But his lowest minute output came in a blowout. Which means he wasn't really needed which is normal in blowouts. Take away that game 3 and Rodman averaged 32 minutes per game. Slightly under the average and more than enough to show he still had it. And he was playing with torn ligaments in his had which effected his ability to secure rebounds.

I'm not against stats bro. I said they must be put into context. But I'm big on results. Wins and losses. LeBron James is putting up great stat, but the Lakers keep losing. Russell Westbrook is a triple double machine. But his team's go NOWHERE. It's all about results.

And there are three other games Rodman hovered around 28 minutes. If anything, Game 6 bloated his averages. He essentially got forced to play (Pippen was hurt) 40 minutes. Either way, my argument here is that 96 Rodman > 98 because of his playtime. He was also younger in 96, made all-defense and grabbed more boards. I'm very big on results too, but what you produce carries a lot of weight.

Funny you mentioned LeBron though. Given his age a lot of fans are impressed with his scoring. Are you saying his numbers are empty? :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

And there are three other games Rodman hovered around 28 minutes. If anything, Game 6 bloated his averages. He essentially got forced to play (Pippen was hurt) 40 minutes. Either way, my argument here is that 96 Rodman > 98 because of his playtime. He was also younger in 96, made all-defense and grabbed more boards. I'm very big on results too, but what you produce carries a lot of weight.

Funny you mentioned LeBron though. Given his age a lot of fans are impressed with his scoring. Are you saying his numbers are empty? :confusedshrug:

Yes they are empty. The Lakers are losing. I think he's padding his stats to set that scoring record. The Lakers offense isn't the problem. It's their defense. And James is a big culprit.

With regards to Rodman, they only play six games bro. 28 minutes is more than enough to show his worth. And one of those games was a blowout win. You're acting like Rodman was in the game for 5-8 minutes. I honestly think you're pulling hair stands here bro. Really ticky tack stuff. Just because Rodman didn't play an average of 3-4 more minutes a night? Come on bro.

[MadDog]

Yes they are empty. The Lakers are losing. I think he's padding his stats to set that scoring record. The Lakers offense isn't the problem. It's their defense. And James is a big culprit.

He's definitely statpadded this year, but I cant say his numbers are empty. There are a lot of games the Lakers needed his scoring. Sure LeBron could scale it back and put more effort in defensively (or just with his playmaking), but without AD, they're missing a ton of offense.


With regards to Rodman, they only play six games bro. 28 minutes is more than enough to show his worth. And one of those games was a blowout win. You're acting like Rodman was in the game for 5-8 minutes. I honestly think you're pulling hair stands here bro. Really ticky tack stuff. Just because Rodman didn't play an average of 3-4 more minutes a night? Come on bro.

I'm saying Rodman in 96, a starter, had more impact on the game. Dude was better across the map, and wasn't the distraction he became in 98. What about that do you disagree with? I mean, you can say its "splitting hairs" but I call it being real.

[97 bulls]

He's definitely statpadded this year, but I cant say his numbers are empty. There are a lot of games the Lakers needed his scoring. Sure LeBron could scale it back and put more effort in defensively (or just with his playmaking), but without AD, they're missing a ton of offense.



I'm saying Rodman in 96, a starter, had more impact on the game. Dude was better across the map, and wasn't the distraction he became in 98. What about that do you disagree with? I mean, you can say its "splitting hairs" but I call it being real.

Real petty.

Was Rodman better in 96? Sure. I think he was the Finals MVP to be honest.

This conversation started to show value between Rodman and Horace Grant. Put a healthy 98 Rodman on the 94 Bulls in place of Grant and I think they beat the Knicks. Why? Because Rodman could've done a better job on Ewing. In my opinion. Rodman impacted the game at a higher level than Grant did.

[MadDog]

Real petty.

Was Rodman better in 96? Sure. I think he was the Finals MVP to be honest.

This conversation started to show value between Rodman and Horace Grant. Put a healthy 98 Rodman on the 94 Bulls in place of Grant and I think they beat the Knicks. Why? Because Rodman could've done a better job on Ewing. In my opinion. Rodman impacted the game at a higher level than Grant did.

We've been debating 98 & 96. :confusedshrug: Lol you think its petty, but agreed 96 Rod was better. Anyways, I think Jordan was the rightful MVP because he was the superior player. Had more influence and in ALL aspects. Voters thought the same apparently.

Don't think 98 Rodman is enough to beat 94 New York. He wouldn't get enough playtime, and the Bulls would miss Grant's all-star caliber offense (a series Chicago already struggled to score in). Heck, Grant was solid on defense too.

[warriorfan]

Yeah. Scottie Pippen was as good as MJ.

Sounds legit.

[IMObjective]

I think one of the biggest disservice we do in these conversations is, be completely unable, or unwilling to acknowledge different eras/versions of a player. You guys just casually say "Bulls Mj" as if 91 Mj = 97 Mj. Huge difference. Same applies for a guy like Scottie, during the 2nd 3peat he may have been twice the player he was beforehand. Mj during the 2nd 3peat was a lesser version of the goat. During the 1st 3peat Scotties impact was far lesser than Mike's was. However, during the 2nd 3peat I felt like he did just as much damage and had a comparable impact, albeit in different faucets of the game. We know Mj was the scoring wagon, no doubt. Hell he'd have never let it be any other way anyhow. Any Mj fan should know that to be true. Scottie did the other things at a pretty high level, and that's not to say he did these things "better" than Mj did. It's just that he filled those roles more often.

These are good points. It must have been the second 3peat, I remember announcers kept saying how scottie might be the second best player in the league, how mj turned scottie into the second best in the league.

Talking head do get hyperbolic during the playoffs and finals, I remember how they were calling Pau the best pf in the league during those laker championships.

[TheGoatest]

Yeah. Scottie Pippen was as good as MJ.

Sounds legit.

The Great Scott Pippen was as better than Jordan at every single aspect of basketball other than scoring: Fact.
The Great Scott Pippen was more instrumental to the Bulls' winning based on the fact that he came closer to winning a championships on two occasions he played without Jordan than Jordan did on either of the two occasions he played without The Great Scott Pippen.

You can use sarcasm as a defensive mechanism all you want, but that is 110% legit.

[97 bulls]

We've been debating 98 & 96. :confusedshrug: Lol you think its petty, but agreed 96 Rod was better. Anyways, I think Jordan was the rightful MVP because he was the superior player. Had more influence and in ALL aspects. Voters thought the same apparently.

It seems to me that you'd give Rodman credit for his impact on shutting down Malone if he played 3 more minutes a game lol. That's petty. Again, I feel Rodman was the MVP of that series. And so did George Karl. The head coach of the Sonics.

Teammate Luc Longley: "I thought Dennis did everything to win the MVP. He was sensational. Without him, there's no doubt we wouldn't have won tonight."

Seattle Coach George Karl: "Dennis Rodman won them two ballgames in this series. Game 2 and tonight, he was the reason they were successful. We controlled Michael Jordan for the most part in the series. We put him on the foul line a lot {where he was 11 for 12 on Sunday night}, but without that he had a pretty mediocre game."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1996/06/17/the-worm-turns-into-a-hero/cc04214f-c758-4987-871c-72b8a1e8367f/



Don't think 98 Rodman is enough to beat 94 New York. He wouldn't get enough playtime, and the Bulls would miss Grant's all-star caliber offense (a series Chicago already struggled to score in). Heck, Grant was solid on defense too.

Scoring wasn't the Bulls problem. They actually outscored the Knicks for the series. Ewing is what killed them. We saw what Rodman did to guys like Shaq, Mourning, and Malone. There's no doubt that he would've been enough to change the dynamics of that series if he were put on Ewing. And Grant was horrible on the boards. He only averaged 6. They needed more interior roughness and rebounding. Especially if he was healthy.

[MadDog]

It seems to me that you'd give Rodman credit for his impact on shutting down Malone if he played 3 more minutes a game lol. That's petty. Again, I feel Rodman was the MVP of that series. And so did George Karl. The head coach of the Sonics.

You definitely misunderstood. I already gave Rodman credit on the last page. Yes he played solid defense on Malone for half the game. I'm just saying, Rodman actually started games in 96. And averaged 10 more minutes. Pretty big difference.

Far as the FMVP goes, Rodman was incredible in that series. Jordan's overall game edged him out though. Voters, the NY times and multiple writers in the tribune beleived so too. Is what it is.


Scoring wasn't the Bulls problem. They actually outscored the Knicks for the series. Ewing is what killed them. We saw what Rodman did to guys like Shaq, Mourning, and Malone. There's no doubt that he would've been enough to change the dynamics of that series if he were put on Ewing. And Grant was horrible on the boards. He only averaged 6. They needed more interior roughness and rebounding. Especially if he was healthy.

Disagree. Chicago lost two games barely cracking 86 points. In Game 7, they clearly struggled to score and finished with 77. :oldlol: Even with Rodman, though, Shaq and Malone still got their points on good efficiency. So its hard to imagine Rodman, coming off the bench, while playing around a quarter less, being the difference maker. I dont doubt he'd do a good job on Ewing, but the Bulls still lose 18 points from Grant.

98 Rodman with that team is a cool hypothetical though. Him going up against a prime Oak, Mason & Ewing would've been something.

[sdot_thadon]

These are good points. It must have been the second 3peat, I remember announcers kept saying how scottie might be the second best player in the league, how mj turned scottie into the second best in the league.

Talking head do get hyperbolic during the playoffs and finals, I remember how they were calling Pau the best pf in the league during those laker championships.

Yeah, definitely true. Kind of tells you exactly who was there to see it and what age they may have been if they saw it live. 2nd 3peat was never seen as Mj and his sidekicks as it played out. The Bulls were a legit big 3. You can argue Roman's impact and worth towards the end but it's just semantics in the grand scheme of things, as we give guys credit way farther past their positive impact if we like them lol.

[RogueBorg]

The Great Scott Pippen was as better than Jordan at every single aspect of basketball other than scoring: Fact.


Jordan 5.3 apg career, Jordan 5.4 apg with Bulls
Pippen 5.2 apg career, Pippen 5.3 apg with Bulls

One simple stat wrecks your entire argument.
You are one dumb SOB.

Would you like me to do FG%, 3-pt%, FT%, steals, and blocks?

[97 bulls]

You definitely misunderstood. I already gave Rodman credit on the last page. Yes he played solid defense on Malone for half the game. I'm just saying, Rodman actually started games in 96. And averaged 10 more minutes. Pretty big difference.

Far as the FMVP goes, Rodman was incredible in that series. Jordan's overall game edged him out though. Voters, the NY times and multiple writers in the tribune beleived so too. Is what it is.



Disagree. Chicago lost two games barely cracking 86 points. In Game 7, they clearly struggled to score and finished with 77. :oldlol: Even with Rodman, though, Shaq and Malone still got their points on good efficiency. So its hard to imagine Rodman, coming off the bench, while playing around a quarter less, being the difference maker. I dont doubt he'd do a good job on Ewing, but the Bulls still lose 18 points from Grant.

98 Rodman with that team is a cool hypothetical though. Him going up against a prime Oak, Mason & Ewing would've been something.

But the players mentioned didn't get their points on Rodman. Again, refer back to the videos as a prime example. Had Longley and a lesser defender been tasked with having to check Malone, Malone may have been able to get damn near 40 a night. He was killing Longley. Rodmans rebounding numbers were lower because he was playing with a bad hand. I also think it's silly to try to discredit Rodmans impact because he averaged 28 minutes a night especially when one of those games was a blowout which facilitated him not having to play a lot of minutes. Had that game been close, he might have played 38-40 minutes. You seem too hung up on him not starting. He finished every single game. And he only played 24 minutes in game 5 because he was in foul trouble. Again stats and context.

As far as that 94 series, the Knicks had 2 games where they struggled offensively. Lol. But they killed the Bulls on the boards. And the Bulls had no interior presence to think off. Their best rebounder was Pippen. Had he's trying to be their best scorer, facilitator and helper on defense. Sorry bro. The facts just don't jive with what you're saying.

[RogueBorg]

As far as that 94 series, the Knicks had 2 games where they struggled offensively. Lol. But they killed the Bulls on the boards. And the Bulls had no interior presence to think off. Their best rebounder was Pippen.

Horace Grant was the Bulls best rebounder by far but came up small big time versus the Knicks.

[97 bulls]

Horace Grant was the Bulls best rebounder by far but came up small big time versus the Knicks.

Grant was their best rebounder. But Pippen averaged more. That's a big problem.

[MadDog]

But the players mentioned didn't get their points on Rodman. Again, refer back to the videos as a prime example. Had Longley and a lesser defender been tasked with having to check Malone, Malone may have been able to get damn near 40 a night. He was killing Longley. Rodmans rebounding numbers were lower because he was playing with a bad hand. I also think it's silly to try to discredit Rodmans impact because he averaged 28 minutes a night especially when one of those games was a blowout which facilitated him not having to play a lot of minutes. Had that game been close, he might have played 38-40 minutes. You seem too hung up on him not starting. He finished every single game. And he only played 24 minutes in game 5 because he was in foul trouble. Again stats and context.

As far as that 94 series, the Knicks had 2 games where they struggled offensively. Lol. But they killed the Bulls on the boards. And the Bulls had no interior presence to think off. Their best rebounder was Pippen. Had he's trying to be their best scorer, facilitator and helper on defense. Sorry bro. The facts just don't jive with what you're saying.

Right, but if Rodman is barely playing half the game, and these players are STILL getting their numbers, how much impact did he really have? I get that Rodman played key defense, and I'm not taking that away from him. But zoning in on his 28 minutes isn't exclusive to the finals. He played 28 minutes that ENTIRE playoff run, while Phil and Jordan questioned his effort. Not like I'm making that up. Its a fact.

In those 94 semis, Chicago struggled to score in 3 games. Not 2. Remember, for the season they averaged 98 points a game. They were held to 8 points less and shot poorly. Pippen himself shot a putrid 40%. Don't see how defense was the problem when Chicago held NY to 10 points less than their average. Sounds like another narrative you're making up lol

[MadDog]

Let me also correct myself. Rodman's minutes began to decline in the Pacer series. The "entire playoffs" was hyperbole on my part.

[97 bulls]

Right, but if Rodman is barely playing half the game, and these players are STILL getting their numbers, how much impact did he really have? I get that Rodman played key defense, and I'm not taking that away from him. But zoning in on his 28 minutes isn't exclusive to the finals. He played 28 minutes that ENTIRE playoff run, while Phil and Jordan questioned his effort. Not like I'm making that up. Its a fact.

In those 94 semis, Chicago struggled to score in 3 games. Not 2. Remember, for the season they averaged 98 points a game. They were held to 8 points less and shot poorly. Pippen himself shot a putrid 40%. Don't see how defense was the problem when Chicago held NY to 10 points less than their average. Sounds like another narrative you're making up lol

Nobody plays a whole game. I applied context to his minutes. He was in foul trouble in one and another was a blowout he played over 38 in 2 and I believe roughly 30 in the other 2. You keep ignoring this. I even told you that the average NBA starter plays 36 minutes. Again, you must look at the circumstances.

And yet the Bulls scored more points in that series than New York. I actually said the lack of interior defense was the problem and more importantly, they lost on the boards. You said the Bulls were 8 points below their average right? Well the Knicks were 9 points below their average. Their offense sputtered too. It was a defensive slugfest. But the Knicks outrebounded the Bulls. I mean think about this here. The Bulls shot a better percentage, had more assists, averaged more points for the series, scored more points overall, and had less TOs. The only box they lost in was.....REBOUNDING!!!! And the Bulls best rebounder for the season only averaged SIX in that series!!!!

[MadDog]

Nobody plays a whole game. I applied context to his minutes. He was in foul trouble in one and another was a blowout he played over 38 in 2 and I believe roughly 30 in the other 2. You keep ignoring this. I even told you that the average NBA starter plays 36 minutes. Again, you must look at the circumstances.

And yet the Bulls scored more points in that series than New York. I actually said the lack of interior defense was the problem and more importantly, they lost on the boards. You said the Bulls were 8 points below their average right? Well the Knicks were 9 points below their average. Their offense sputtered too. It was a defensive slugfest. But the Knicks outrebounded the Bulls. I mean think about this here. The Bulls shot a better percentage, had more assists, averaged more points for the series, scored more points overall, and had less TOs. The only box they lost in was.....REBOUNDING!!!! And the Bulls best rebounder for the season only averaged SIX in that series!!!!


Obviously lol. But when a dude only plays half a game, and his opponent still gets numbers, how much impact did he really have? That's a question you're either dodging or just don't have an answer for. Rodman played 24 minutes (a half of basketball) in Game 5 and Malone still ended up with 37 points. Shot over 60% too. He might've defended Malone well for the minutes he got, but again, the game is 48 minutes.

Regarding the 94 series, whether the Bulls outscored New York is irrelevant. They were held to 8 points less than their average. Moreover, the Bulls held New York to 10 points less than their average. That's fantastic defense. So again, why are you pretending scoring wasn't a factor here? The Bulls scored 77 ****ing points in Game 7 :oldlol:

You're harping over rebounds, but the Knicks had a 50% rebounding percentage compared to Chicago's 49%. Get real.

[TheGoatest]

Jordan 5.3 apg career, Jordan 5.4 apg with Bulls
Pippen 5.2 apg career, Pippen 5.3 apg with Bulls

One simple stat wrecks your entire argument.
You are one dumb SOB.

Would you like me to do FG%, 3-pt%, FT%, steals, and blocks?

Jordan career mpg: 38.3
The Great Scott Pippen career mpg: 34.9

What a friggin moron. They sure don't make morons like you anymore. :roll:

Anyway, as I was saying: The Great Scott Pippen was as better than Jordan at every single aspect of basketball other than scoring: Fact.

[97 bulls]

Obviously lol. But when a dude only plays half a game, and his opponent still gets numbers, how much impact did he really have? That's a question you're either dodging or just don't have an answer for. Rodman played 24 minutes (a half of basketball) in Game 5 and Malone still ended up with 37 points. Shot over 60% too. He might've defended Malone well for the minutes he got, but again, the game is 48 minutes.

Regarding the 94 series, whether the Bulls outscored New York is irrelevant. They were held to 8 points less than their average. Moreover, the Bulls held New York to 10 points less than their average. That's fantastic defense. So again, why are you pretending scoring wasn't a factor here? The Bulls scored 77 ****ing points in Game 7 :oldlol:

You're harping over rebounds, but the Knicks had a 50% rebounding percentage compared to Chicago's 49%. Get real.

I'm harping over rebounds and lack of interior defense. That's why they lost.

As far as Rodmans minutes, as I said in a previous post it could've been far worse. Blame Phil Jackson for not playing him more. But again, you're acting like he should've played the whole 48 minutes when no player does that. And i explained why he didn't play more minutes. You choose to ignore it.

[bizil]

What stopped Pip from being AT ONE POINT the GOAT SF was his scoring ability. With six rings, he was NEVER REGARDED as the GOAT SF! LMAO! He has DOUBLE THE RINGS Bird has. Yet Bird was the GOAT SF for the LONGEST TIME until Bron passed him by. Bird HANDS DOWN was a much more superior player to Pippen. Peak-prime status is a HUGE FACTOR when it comes to GOAT status. Pip was a great and legendary player. Hell redefined the SF position. As a product of that IS THE BLUEPRINT of the modern point forward.

The one G Hill and Bron took to the next level. But ONCE AGAIN, G Hill and Bron were FACE OF THE LEAGUE type of superstars. Pip was NEVER ON THAT LEVEL! This AINT HATING..... JUST FACTS!!! If u gave a Barkley, Malone, KG, or Dirk SIX RINGS, ONE OF THEM would be the GOAT PF MOST LIKELY! Not Duncan! BECAUSE their peak-prime value is on that level. OR DAMN CLOSE to Duncan's! The SF's like Bird, Bron, KD, Dr. J, and Baylor had a peak-prime value that Pip's six rings COULDN'T supercede!

Sure at one point Pip was the best SF in the world. BUT at that point, the SF position didn't have great superstar level depth from top to bottom like the Golden Age SF era in the 80's. Bird, Nique, Mullin, King, Dantley, English, Worthy, Kiki, Aguirre, etc. were either past their prime or OUTTA THE LEAGUE when Pip rose up to the SF crown. Once G Hill got in the league and rolling, then he took that crown from Pippen.

And Pip was never HANDS DOWN a top five player in the league. Top five ALL AROUND, HELL YEAH!!! But the better all around player ISN'T the better player in all cases! When MJ retired for baseball, Dream, Barkley, Admiral, Shaq, Ewing, Mailman, and Drexler were all in the league. So even at THAT POINT, Pip wasn't HANDS DOWN a top five player in the league! ALL AROUND WISE though (scoring, passing, defense, rebounding as a package), Pip was the best player in the league when MJ was away. I'll GIVE HIM THAT.

[MadDog]

I'm harping over rebounds and lack of interior defense. That's why they lost.

As far as Rodmans minutes, as I said in a previous post it could've been far worse. Blame Phil Jackson for not playing him more. But again, you're acting like he should've played the whole 48 minutes when no player does that. And i explained why he didn't play more minutes. You choose to ignore it.

And by the numbers, lack of scoring was a bigger factor. Its a BO7 not BO1. The Bulls were outscored 4 times & in Game 7 couldn't even crack 80 points. Rodman having starter minutes or at least getting the playtime he did in 96....isn't asking a lot. It isn't saying he should play the entire game either.

You can't play half the game and have the impact you're eluding to. :confusedshrug: Apparently Jordan & Phil thought the same.

[97 bulls]

And by the numbers, lack of scoring was a bigger factor. Its a BO7 not BO1. The Bulls were outscored 4 times & in Game 7 couldn't even crack 80 points. Rodman having starter minutes or at least getting the playtime he did in 96....isn't asking a lot. It isn't saying he should play the entire game either.

You can't play half the game and have the impact you're eluding to. :confusedshrug: Apparently Jordan & Phil thought the same.

Lol. Bro. I told you why his average minutes were lower. Please address that.

Obviously the Bulls could've scored more. Maybe they could've scored more if their best rebounder did his job and did better than average 6 rebound a game. It's not like the Knicks were scoring all these points as well.

[MadDog]

Lol. Bro. I told you why his average minutes were lower. Please address that.

Obviously the Bulls could've scored more. Maybe they could've scored more if their best rebounder did his job and did better than average 6 rebound a game. It's not like the Knicks were scoring all these points as well.

That's not the only reason. Rod's mintues begain to decline in the Pacer series. He was distracted off the court, and it caused inconsistent play. Read the article I posted where Jordan & Phil literally tell you this verbatim.

In that 94 series, I think both teams did a great job on defense. Sure rebounding played a role, but New York only grabbed them at a 1% clip, higher. That isn't saying much lol. Your led guy, though, only averaged 21 points and shot 40% from the field. And his team was held to 8 points less than their average. Look there first.

[TheCorporation]

If Pippen was the one that took 2 years off to quit / rest up he'd be killing it and MJ would be breaking down.

[Baller789]

If Pippen was the one that took 2 years off to quit / rest up he'd be killing it and MJ would be breaking down.

If Toby Maguire was actually bitten by a radioactive spider, he would be Spiderman.

[97 bulls]

That's not the only reason. Rod's mintues begain to decline in the Pacer series. He was distracted off the court, and it caused inconsistent play. Read the article I posted where Jordan & Phil literally tell you this verbatim.

In that 94 series, I think both teams did a great job on defense. Sure rebounding played a role, but New York only grabbed them at a 1% clip, higher. That isn't saying much lol. Your led guy, though, only averaged 21 points and shot 40% from the field. And his team was held to 8 points less than their average. Look there first.

And like I said when your lead guy has to anchor the defense, run the offense, be the best scorer, be the best rebounder, draw all the defensive attention, etc, it stands to reason that something is gonna give. In a defensive struggle, you need your best rebounder to come through. Especially when your playing against the best defense in the league.

And consider this, the Knicks outrebounded the Bulls in 5 of the 7 games. The only reason the totals are close is because the Bulls outrebounded the Knicks in game 6 by 17. This is why I say numbers need to be taken with context.

I can't help you with regards to Rodman. Its clear you choose to remain ignorant. Especially when you get video evidence, and stats and context.

[3ba11]

And like I said when your lead guy has to anchor the defense, run the offense, be the best scorer, be the best rebounder, draw all the defensive attention, etc, it stands to reason that something is gonna give. In a defensive struggle, you need your best rebounder to come through. Especially when your playing against the best defense in the league.

And consider this, the Knicks outrebounded the Bulls in 5 of the 7 games. The only reason the totals are close is because the Bulls outrebounded the Knicks in game 6 by 17. This is why I say numbers need to be taken with context.

I can't help you with regards to Rodman. Its clear you choose to remain ignorant. Especially when you get video evidence, and stats and context.


Pippen was a joke:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif


And Jordan got more DPOY than Pippen nearly every year while doubling his scoring and leading the assists for 6 of 9 runs while assisting 33% more often (assist percentage)

It's funny because Pippen nearly beat the Knicks despite wetting the bed, so we know MJ would win in Pippen's place - this confirms that Pippen wasn't needed and was just the lucky bum that landed alongside the goat scorer & DPOY (goat 2-way player)