Russell Westbrick walks up the court....

[Mask the Embiid]

1st. First thing he sees is lebron standing @ half court while lebron blows into his hands to warm them up (trying to send rus a subtle hint to give him the damn ball). His man is of course 10 feet off him cheating to play help defense

2nd he sees Deandre's defender sitting directly under the rim waiting to block any rus layup attempt

3rd he sees Bazemore's man not guarding him @ all in the corner waiting to play help defense on Rus's drive

4th he sees AD's man not guarding him @ all on the wing (because no 1 fears AD at all from 3). Waiting to play help defense

5th he remembers they changed the rules so he wont get any calls

6 the ball feels a little weird...o yeah they changed that too so his shot is a little off more than even usual

7 he hears someone in the crowd talking about a tweet shannon sharp just made throwing him under the boss for his performance tonight

8 He hears the (home) crowd booing him because he was distracted by all of the above and turnt the ball over. They booed him just like they boo him and only him for every mistake that he makes on the court


this is what he dealt with for 80% of the games....dont be so quick to throw dirt on his grave because he "fell off"

20/8/8 44% shooting. He has to deal with a lot. dont judge without walking in his shoes

[ralph_i_el]

Point guards are supposed to be able to take care of the ball and get the team into their offense in the half-court. If you can't do that, you shouldn't play point guard.

Shooting guards are supposed to be able to space the floor and move off ball to utilize the threat of their shot. If you can't do that, you shouldn't play shooting guard.

If you can't do either of those things at an NBA level...go play rugby.

[imdaman99]

Lol y'all are right, he shouldn't even be in the NBA. How is 20-8-8 even impressive when I could do that playing water polo?

[WhiteKyrie]

Lol y'all are right, he shouldn't even be in the NBA. How is 20-8-8 even impressive when I could do that playing water polo?
Westbrook is a skill-less hack, with a high motor, the aggression and tantrums of a female on her period. With just raw athleticism.

After that even somewhat faded? Exposed for the loser he is as a player.

More athlete than hooper. And he’s definitely never been a quality PG.

All the talent he’s played with in his career without experiencing a truly career altering injury? He’s pathetic af. He’s been washed. Look how many damn times he’s been traded?

[Kblaze8855]

Point guards are supposed to be able to take care of the ball and get the team into their offense in the half-court. If you can't do that, you shouldn't play point guard.

Shooting guards are supposed to be able to space the floor and move off ball to utilize the threat of their shot. If you can't do that, you shouldn't play shooting guard.

If you can't do either of those things at an NBA level...go play rugby.

If whatever you do makes you a 10 time all star, mvp, lead the league in both scoring and assists multiple times each, cruise into the hall of fame and make 300 million dollars as among the most beloved teammates of your era….you may have made the right call sticking with basketball.

[ralph_i_el]

If whatever you do makes you a 10 time all star, mvp, lead the league in both scoring and assists multiple times each, cruise into the hall of fame and make 300 million dollars as among the most beloved teammates of your era….you may have made the right call sticking with basketball.

I'm going back through his all star appearances, and every year I'm finding guys who didn't make the team that I would rather have in the playoffs.

Tony Parker didn't make the 2010-11 team, for example. Would you rather have Russ suiting up for you in the playoffs that year or Parker? Almost every season I could find a guard who was snubbed who I'd rather have in the playoffs over Russ. The first year he was an all-star he got benched in a playoff game for Erick Maynor because he couldn't get KD the ball.

He's the least deserving MVP of my lifetime. People didn't understand how pace makes triple doubles much less impressive. His rebounding numbers were never impressive to me as a person who watches the games. Steven Adams defensive rebounding rate went from 15% to 25% as soon as Russ left OKC. Letting the bigs throw outlet passes is the fundamental play..but it doesn't lead to the star racking up huge numbers in regular season play. Stealing boards from the bigs and sprinting up court yourself is not the best strategy for a TEAM.

He shot below 40% in 10/21 of his career playoff series, because the style of basketball that gave him MUH STATS fundamentally does not work when teams get serious on defense.

He's a gimmick player. If I wanted to watch a track meet, I would.


TL;DR the people that paid him $300m shouldn't have, and probably regret it. The people that voted him to all star games are idiots. The people that voted him MVP are too.

[ralph_i_el]

Lol y'all are right, he shouldn't even be in the NBA. How is 20-8-8 even impressive when I could do that playing water polo?

Rebounds aren't a stat in water polo. We do record the number of times you get ejected for trying to drown someone (limit 3 per game).

[Kblaze8855]

What you want to watch means precisely zero. You don’t have to like it. I’m not personally a fan of a lot of people who had incredible careers. I assure you none of these people need our cosign to get that Hall of Fame bust. And he’s getting one.

He has a play style that makes a lot of people who lack perspective talk shit about things that don’t matter. Of what good is shooting 54 percent like Steve Nash when it’s combined with GOAT tier playmaking, 2-3 additional stars, and loses early anyway? What good did it do for Stockton to shoot so well and never turn it over when he plays with an mvp caliber perfect running mate for 18 years of losing even when bolstered with an extra all star and/or a DPOY and all time elite coaching? The purest of points plays perfectly efficient ball and amazing defense with great help and loses in the first round like 8-9 times. You might pick Chris Paul….who has spent 17 years not winning with 6-7 of them having the talent to do so.

Shooting well and losing means no more than a triple double and losing. Especially when a lot of efficient players lost while needing to be more aggressive to help their teams.

Why would I be looking for Tony Parker? Do I get Duncan, Pop, and Manu with him? Russ could be a champ playing his whole career with Duncan. When he ****ed up Pop just benches him for Speedy Clayton exactly like Pop did Tony and won on the back of Timmy.

Perfect situation and “efficiency” have masked a lack of accomplishment or individual dominance for an awful lot of people.

It’s as if shooting well while scoring less points than your team needs to win in the playoffs is a moral victory. Whatever it is…it isn’t a real victory.

In real life Westbrook has pretty middle of the road playoff accomplishments for a legend. I don’t know if id take him over whatever random hall of fame or superstar point you might pick at random. But since I’m as likely to get Dave Bing or Tim Hardaway or whoever as I am to get Magic I wouldn’t bet against it.

[tpols]

I thought this was gonna be a parody at first especially after reading points 5, 6, 7, and 8.

"The ball feels weird" "Refs!!!" and "he feels bad because the crowd booed him and a Shannon Sharpe tweet!"

:biggums:

Points 1-4 were terrible since Westbrook is easily a worse shooter than LeBron, AD, or any of the role player spacers but the last points took the cake.

You had me thinking this was a satire but you're dead serious.

:roll:

[PeroAntic]

Russ could be a champ playing his whole career with Duncan. When he ****ed up Pop just benches him for Speedy Clayton exactly like Pop did Tony and won on the back of Timmy.

lol no he wouldn't be. if by any kind of temporary brain damage Pop would get Westbrook on his team, he would notice right away how he limits his actual superstar and title chances.

Expecting Westbrook to f**k up as much as Parker or less is unrealistic. Parker was infinitely smarter and more refined than Westbrook

[tpols]

lol no he wouldn't be. if by any kind of temporary brain damage Pop would get Westbrook on his team, he would notice right away how he limits his actual superstar and title chances.

Expecting Westbrook to f**k up as much as Parker or less is unrealistic. Parker was infinitely smarter and more refined than Westbrook

Kblaze is basically arguing that westbrook could win as a role player against a Nets team that had no other star outside Kidd like the Spurs did outside Duncan. That's not a good argument. Any NBA player literally ever could win a role player ring.

[ralph_i_el]

Pop wasn't benching 2010 Tony. Pop might have retired 10 years ago if the Spurs traded for Russ. When I judge players, I ask myself how they would fit in on the 2014 Spurs. Russ wouldn't fit.

Nash, Stockton, CP3...for the most part they led teams that overperformed due to their greatness. They got guys paid because they made them look so good. Russ is the opposite of this. He made young future all-stars like Oladipo and Sabonis look like garbage. I firmly believe that Russ held back Durant in OKC. Nobody believes Nash and Stockton held back Amare and Malone.

How different would Jason Kidd's stats look if he never kicked the ball ahead in transition in a situation that wouldn't get him an assist? Kidd made the right TEAM play over and over and over again, night in and night out. How can I believe these stats mean anything when you can watch Russ play and watch Kidd play and know with absolute certainty that Kidd was just a superior player, regardless of ppg?

[FultzNationRISE]

What you want to watch means precisely zero. You don’t have to like it. I’m not personally a fan of a lot of people who had incredible careers. I assure you none of these people need our cosign to get that Hall of Fame bust. And he’s getting one.

He has a play style that makes a lot of people who lack perspective talk shit about things that don’t matter. Of what good is shooting 54 percent like Steve Nash when it’s combined with GOAT tier playmaking, 2-3 additional stars, and loses early anyway? What good did it do for Stockton to shoot so well and never turn it over when he plays with an mvp caliber perfect running mate for 18 years of losing even when bolstered with an extra all star and/or a DPOY and all time elite coaching? The purest of points plays perfectly efficient ball and amazing defense with great help and loses in the first round like 8-9 times. You might pick Chris Paul….who has spent 17 years not winning with 6-7 of them having the talent to do so.

Shooting well and losing means no more than a triple double and losing. Especially when a lot of efficient players lost while needing to be more aggressive to help their teams.

Why would I be looking for Tony Parker? Do I get Duncan, Pop, and Manu with him? Russ could be a champ playing his whole career with Duncan. When he ****ed up Pop just benches him for Speedy Clayton exactly like Pop did Tony and won on the back of Timmy.

Perfect situation and “efficiency” have masked a lack of accomplishment or individual dominance for an awful lot of people.

It’s as if shooting well while scoring less points than your team needs to win in the playoffs is a moral victory. Whatever it is…it isn’t a real victory.

In real life Westbrook has pretty middle of the road playoff accomplishments for a legend. I don’t know if id take him over whatever random hall of fame or superstar point you might pick at random. But since I’m as likely to get Dave Bing or Tim Hardaway or whoever as I am to get Magic I wouldn’t bet against it.


Speedy Clayton :yaohappy:

[WhiteKyrie]

Westbrick couldn’t win with multiple MVP caliber talents. And yet he could replicate what Tony Parker did? Um, no. There’s more to the game than raw statistical output. And I don’t exactly consider Westbrick a legend of the game.

[Kblaze8855]

Pop wasn't benching 2010 Tony. Pop might have retired 10 years ago if the Spurs traded for Russ. When I judge players, I ask myself how they would fit in on the 2014 Spurs. Russ wouldn't fit.

Nash, Stockton, CP3...for the most part they led teams that overperformed due to their greatness. They got guys paid because they made them look so good. Russ is the opposite of this. He made young future all-stars like Oladipo and Sabonis look like garbage. I firmly believe that Russ held back Durant in OKC. Nobody believes Nash and Stockton held back Amare and Malone.

How different would Jason Kidd's stats look if he never kicked the ball ahead in transition in a situation that wouldn't get him an assist? Kidd made the right TEAM play over and over and over again, night in and night out. How can I believe these stats mean anything when you can watch Russ play and watch Kidd play and know with absolute certainty that Kidd was just a superior player, regardless of ppg?


A couple of your examples there are emblematic of our issue here. Perception vs reality. You talk about Oladipo being made worse when Oladipo himself said he learned the professionalism and work ethic required to be a star from Westbrook. You talk about Sabonis when Westbrook was the one coming in to play with him before sunrise doing drills and getting him better when nobody was watching. And not one year later….or 2….3 years later he’s a star and we act like he should have been one as a rookie? He only started five games 2 years after leaving OKC.

Perception makes us blame Westbrook for a player not becoming a star as a rookie even when it takes 3 years for him to start elsewhere. Perception doesn’t demand us point out Durants mvp season, George having his best year ever and being in mvp talks, or Beal having a career year doing 32ppg last year.

Its a matter of fitting the truth around the story you want to tell. You may not feeeeeeel like other points held people back. Doesn’t mean Dirk didn’t immediately get better and peak without Nash right after losing in the first round on a team with the next 3 mvps and 5 total all stars ranging from age 25 to 30. It might not feel like Stockton held anyone back. And I wouldn’t say he did. I’d say his nature held them back a bit because he only turned the scoring on as a last resort when often his team could have used it. I absolutely know that Russ on a team with a 30ppg forward, a DPOY, a 20ppg sixth man and great coaching he’d be mocked for losing in the first round again and again.

Any reference to his stats(and Stockton had good to amazing numbers) would be followed with questions about why those stats…combined with superior talent….resulted in getting swept in the first round.

There is so much talk about Russ being ineffective it drowns out talk about how little most legends nothing like him actually won…often in good situations to do it. People just love good shooting numbers even when it obviously didn’t change the outcome.

I realize I’m a bit older than you so the legendary guards of the past for me are different from yours. But the ones I came up hearing about? Oscar, Tiny, West, Earl Monroe and so on? All those people lost and lost and lost even with other top 3ish players. Frazier won with 5 hall of famers and Cousy with like 8 and they won 5 rings without him so it’s hard to credit them.

All my legendary guys of the past were losing early and usually with good teams. In the 80s you had Magic and Isiah winning on super teams with 4-6 all stars. All the 90s points lost and lost and lost even when paired with other stars(Timmy, Penny, Stockton, KJ, Payton, and so on). All peaked the same place as Russell winning wise and 3 of them had all time terrible losses. I’m talking 60 win teams losing in the first round to 8th seeds shit.

The story of Russ is really familiar to me because I came up and spent most of my life watching the best points not win shit without goat tier talent around them(and usually lose with that too). I’ve been hearing CP3rd round virgin for a decade. It was very recent when the league basically rigged itself to favor ball handlers.

It all just makes me wonder what league have the rest of you been watching to conclude that Russ has had some kinda bad career from a winning standpoint.

If I stacked up the best 30 or so points ever I don’t think he would stand out at all far as failures or underachieving. Just that nobody talks about the rest. Apparently you can lose a whooooooole lot with plenty of talent and have absolutely nobody remember or care. All the 1-17s, 1 point games, 8th seed upset allowing things just melt away with time.

And they probably should. Big picture? None of that shit matters as much as haters would make them seem if they happened to the legends today. We live in an age of extremes.

[ImKobe]

Russ is far from a perfect PG but his insane motor makes him more valuable than most guards in the league.
How many players in NBA history have played on the level of 2017 Westbrook?

34/11/11/2 averages post-ASB in 2017 (23 games, not counting the last game where he only played 18 minutes and with the seeding already in place)
He had a 10-game run in late March/early April with 35/13/11 48/39/87 averages and clinched the Playoffs with a buzzer-beater against Denver in a 50-point triple-double performance.

He also averaged 37/12/11 in the POs that year and had insane on/off numbers in that Rockets series - The team had a +3.2 Net Rating with him on the court and a -59.8 Net Rating with him off (46 minutes). He almost had two 50-point triple-doubles in a Playoff series (3 pt 1 ast off in Game 5 vs. Rockets). he was +11 in a 4-pt loss in Game 2, +14 in a 4-pt loss in Game 4 and +12 in a 6-pt loss in Game 5 that series.

[ralph_i_el]

Blaze, this has nothing to do with rings from my perspective. I just think his stats are a function of a style that's not actually conducive to winning. Those stats are the reason he's viewed so highly. I'm not commenting on his likeability as a teammate. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, there are better guards who put up much less gaudy stats, and so don't get the recognition. I don't care about his rebounds when it was clear that he wasn't increasing his team's rebound rate (as evidenced by his teammates vastly increasing their rebound rate after he left, with their team rate staying about the same). His gaudy assist numbers don't impress me because it goes along with high turnovers and extreme ball monopolization. I'm not that impressed with his scoring, because he mostly did it via chucking and forcing transition attacks that disappear in the playoffs. I can't think of any guards who saw their efficiency drop so drastically when the games got serious.

These stats are the only reason he's talked about in the company of all those other HoF guards who didn't win rings.


The story of Russ is really familiar to me because I came up and spent most of my life watching the best points not win shit without goat tier talent around them(and usually lose with that too). I’ve been hearing CP3rd round virgin for a decade. It was very recent when the league basically rigged itself to favor ball handlers.

The difference is, Russ actually DID have GOAT tier talent around him. KD has an argument for greatest scorer all time. What playoff series for CP3 can you point to and say "Wow, CP3 really hurt his squad in this series. They would have had a better chance with a different all star point guard". There's a difference between losing because you got unlucky or beat by a better squad, and losing because you're throwing the ball all over the place and the other team is daring you to shoot so they can keep the ball out of KD's hands.

[ralph_i_el]

A couple of your examples there are emblematic of our issue here. Perception vs reality. You talk about Oladipo being made worse when Oladipo himself said he learned the professionalism and work ethic required to be a star from Westbrook. You talk about Sabonis when Westbrook was the one coming in to play with him before sunrise doing drills and getting him better when nobody was watching. And not one year later….or 2….3 years later he’s a star and we act like he should have been one as a rookie? He only started five games 2 years after leaving OKC.

Perception makes us blame Westbrook for a player not becoming a star as a rookie even when it takes 3 years for him to start elsewhere. Perception doesn’t demand us point out Durants mvp season, George having his best year ever and being in mvp talks, or Beal having a career year doing 32ppg last year.
.

I remember reading the deep article that came out after Dipo blew up. Didn't remember him talking about Russ at all, just about doing more advanced conditioning down in Miami. Regardless, he took a huge jump the very next season after leaving OKC.

Sabonis might not have been a starter his very next season, but he went from being hilariously bad on OKC (because he was just standing in the corner as a stretch 4, and playing in a half court offense with no ball movement) to being one of the most effective bench players in the league the next season. The story at the time was that Russ had no talent on his team and HAD to monopolize the ball every posession.

KD could be dropped into any team in the league and be an MVP candidate. Beal basically put up the exact same stats with Russ as he did the year before. Replacing Isaiah Thomas and Shabazz Napier with Russ led to the Wiz winning 9 more games. They were better with Ish Smith or Raul Neto on the floor last year than with Russ. But he still put up lots of stats!!!

[ImKobe]

I remember reading the deep article that came out after Dipo blew up. Didn't remember him talking about Russ at all, just about doing more advanced conditioning down in Miami. Regardless, he took a huge jump the very next season after leaving OKC.

Sabonis might not have been a starter his very next season, but he went from being hilariously bad on OKC (because he was just standing in the corner as a stretch 4, and playing in a half court offense with no ball movement) to being one of the most effective bench players in the league the next season. The story at the time was that Russ had no talent on his team and HAD to monopolize the ball every posession.

KD could be dropped into any team in the league and be an MVP candidate. Beal basically put up the exact same stats with Russ as he did the year before. Replacing Isaiah Thomas and Shabazz Napier with Russ led to the Wiz winning 9 more games. They were better with Ish Smith or Raul Neto on the floor last year than with Russ. But he still put up lots of stats!!!

Oladipo improved his game and grew into a star role on a different team, doesn't mean that Russ made him worse lol. He was HORRIBLE in that Houston series in 2017 in close losses, even when Russ sat on the bench and he had free reign to run the offense and do his thing to hold the lead, the team was hilariously bad without Russ on the court. In the RS, they were -5.3 with Oladipo on the court with Russ on the bench and +1.2 with Russ on & Oladipo off and a pathetic -11.6 with both off. In the POs, OKC was a -72.18 with Oladipo on the court & Russ on the bench. It's unfair to use the Sabonis argument IMO, he was a damn rookie and didn't become a star until his 4th year, they needed him to space the floor because they didn't have the spacing to really do anything else.

And yeah, that's exactly what Russ had to do in 2017. It's all backed up by the data and the fact that KD walked in FA and they got nothing in return for him. He had to have some insane games like a 50-pt triple-double to get his team the win on the very last possession of the game. He had some help but not nearly enough to compete in the WC that year, yet he got them a 6th seed. They had to use Oladipo and Sabonis to space the floor because that team lacked 3PT shooters. They were was dead last in the NBA in 3PT% and that's with Russ shooting 34.3% from deep (~2% higher than the team average) that year & with Oladipo as their best volume shooter. He played a role that was necessary for that team to win and it didn't fit his skillset but it's not like they'd have been better off with him dominating the ball more and having Russ play off the ball and they couldn't completely stagger their minutes either because they needed Oladipo's 3PT ability with Russ on the court.

You can't say his triple-doubles are empty either when he has a 74.1% (140-49) win rate in those games with a +6.4 Net Rating. I doubt the Wizards would have been better off without Russ last year lol. They had a slightly better Net Rating with both on the court than with Russ off/Ish on and Westbrook's post-ASB run is what got them into the POs so you can't really be mad at him either. They're considerably worse on offense so far this year and that's with them replacing Russ with Dinwiddie + the trade the package they got (KCP, Kuzma, Harrell) so maybe Westbrook was not the problem last season.

[aj1987]

Man, some of y'all killing yourselves over WB IIT. Wish you had the same energy in the thread I made 6-7 months ago praising WB. Agendas have changed since then though. :roll: :Roll: