We won in spite of Jordan getting on guys - Pippen

[8Ball]

Another haymaker from Pippen:


"In the doc, Michael attempted to justify the occasions in which he berated a teammate in front of the group. He felt these guys needed to develop the toughest to get past the the NBA's more physical teams. Seeing again how poorly Michael treated his teammates, I cringed, as I did back then.

"Michael was wrong. We didn't win six championships because he got on guys. We won in spite of his getting on guys. We won because we played team basketball, which hadn't been the case my first two seasons, when Doug Collins was our coach. That's what was special about playing for the Bulls: the camaraderie we established with one another, not that we felt blessed to be on the same team with the immortal Michael Jordan.



Pippen spitting truth right now.

[ImKobe]

They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.

[theman93]

They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.

Ethered. Next thread.

[ELITEpower23]

MJ stains in full on meltdown mode now :oldlol:

[hateraid]

Another haymaker from Pippen:




Pippen spitting truth right now.

This is believable. I have never once won on a team where the "leader" berated teammates. It's usually the voice of reason guy who glues the group together. Jordan was lucky to have a Pippen to be the dam of MJs shit flood. And to a lesser extent Cliff Livingston.

[8Ball]

If Pippen wasn't a great teammate Jordan would not be able to berate his teammates to 50 wins.

[8Ball]

They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.

No excuses.

LeBron had even less help in 2018 playoffs and made the finals.

[theman93]

No excuses.

LeBron had even less help in 2018 playoffs and made the finals.

What happened in the Finals? Remember, no excuses.

[8Ball]

They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.


What happened in the Finals? Remember, no excuses.

Imkobe blamed Pippen for not making finals in 1990.

[97 bulls]

They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.

How did Pippen sabotage that series? Wasn't it Jordan that decided to stop shooting in game 5 because the coach told him he was being selfish?

And we gonna not give Pippen any kind of slack for having a bad game when he lost his father 3 weeks before that game 7? But we excuse Jordan for retiring a few weeks before the start of the season because his dad died? Wow.

[97 bulls]

If Pippen wasn't a great teammate Jordan would not be able to berate his teammates to 50 wins.

Exactly!!! How do people miss this? How many players do you think would put up with that day after day before demanding a trade? Or even worse pulling a Ron Artest and hurting Jordan. On any other team, Jordan's behavior would've made him a locker room cancer.

[outofstomach]

They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.first reply body bag. 8ball should just retire from this site honestly :lol

[theman93]

Imkobe blamed Pippen for not making finals in 1990.

And do you not blame Lebron's supporting cast for all the Finals he's lost?

[8Ball]

first reply body bag. 8ball should just retire from this site honestly :lol

Name me the 50 win seasons Jordan had without Pippen?

I won't be holding my breath.

[dankok8]

In games Pippen missed during their title years, the Bulls went 32-12 which is 60-win pace.

[97 bulls]

In games Pippen missed during their title years, the Bulls went 32-12 which is 60-win pace.

Lol. That don't mean much. Jordan's only successful stint without Pippen was 98. But the rest is either a small sample size, or the Bulls were just terrible.

[dankok8]

Lol. That don't mean much. Jordan's only successful stint without Pippen was 98. But the rest is either a small sample size, or the Bulls were just terrible.

He was 1-0 without Pippen in 1993, 5-0 in 1996 and 26-12 in 1998. The overall sample size is 44 games which is sizable, more than half a season's worth.

[Airupthere]

If it had been drexler instead of MJ with the Bulls, would they have done 2 3peats as well? If pippen is saying it was because they simply played team basketball. Would they have been as successful with drexler?

[3ba11]

Jordan wouldn't be hard on Kareem, Worthy, McHale or Parish - he was only hard on Pippen, Grant and Cartwright because they were low-producing bums.. Inconsistent role players that needed constant prodding like a kindergartener to keep their focus up

[SATAN]

Jordan wouldn't be hard on Kareem, Worthy, McHale or Parish - he was only hard on Pippen, Grant and Cartwright because they were low-producing bums.. Inconsistent role players that needed constant prodding like a kindergartener to keep their focus up

Pippen is one of the best players of all time and Horance Grant was an all star. Cartwright threatened to beat the shit out of MJ. He should have.

[Hey Yo]

He was 1-0 without Pippen in 1993, 5-0 in 1996 and 26-12 in 1998. The overall sample size is 44 games which is sizable, more than half a season's worth.

What was Chicago's postseason record without Pippen during those title runs?

[Reggie43]

This is pretty much Jordan's only real weakness. While it could be effective and necessary, that in your face leadership style needed Phil and Pippen to balance things out. It is also true the other way around, you wont win trying to please everybody on the team and telling them things they wanna hear. Somebody needs to be the asshole and tell them what they need to hear to make the team better and tougher.

[Honor Boost]

Name me the 50 win seasons Jordan had without Pippen?

I won't be holding my breath.

If you hold it you will die

[97 bulls]

He was 1-0 without Pippen in 1993, 5-0 in 1996 and 26-12 in 1998. The overall sample size is 44 games which is sizable, more than half a season's worth.

So you just repeated what I stated. 1 game in 1 season, 5 in another and half of 98. What about the other 5 seasons he played without Pip?

[Gohan]

In games Pippen missed during their title years, the Bulls went 32-12 which is 60-win pace.


So you just repeated what I stated. 1 game in 1 season, 5 in another and half of 98. What about the other 5 seasons he played without Pip?

He would of won with shawn kemp too. F pippen and his fans they can all eat a dick

[leopardJuice]

https://townsquare.media/site/88/files/2020/05/GettyImages-74047244.jpg?w=980&q=75

[dankok8]

So you just repeated what I stated. 1 game in 1 season, 5 in another and half of 98. What about the other 5 seasons he played without Pip?

He had terrible supporting casts before and after Pippen. He was also clearly past his prime with the Wizards. Both of those statements are objective takes. No one reasonable would even disagree with them.

The only sample we do have of Jordan with a good cast is the 44 games I posted. I didn't even mean it to be a slight at Pippen. I've always said Pippen was a great player and top 50 all time even if he didn't play with MJ.

[Hey Yo]

What was Chicago's postseason record without Pippen during those title runs?

??

[Axe]

You guys call the 90s a weak and watered down era but worship pippen too much. The irony. :lol

[97 bulls]

He had terrible supporting casts before and after Pippen. He was also clearly past his prime with the Wizards. Both of those statements are objective takes. No one reasonable would even disagree with them.

The only sample we do have of Jordan with a good cast is the 44 games I posted. I didn't even mean it to be a slight at Pippen. I've always said Pippen was a great player and top 50 all time even if he didn't play with MJ.

I actually agree. The teams Jordan had without Pippen weren't good. But we're in Rome. And in Rome, context doesn't matter. That's why you have people knocking Pippen for not winning in 94. Or why you have people ripping Pippen for not winning in 00 at 35 years old. And you're in those chats saying the same shit against Pippen that you justify for Jordan. Those 94 and 95 teams were not good enough to win a championship and or got jobbed in 94, or Pippen while good, had too many miles and was too old in 00 to lead a team to a championship. So which one is it Dankok? Make up your mind.

[ImKobe]

How did Pippen sabotage that series? Wasn't it Jordan that decided to stop shooting in game 5 because the coach told him he was being selfish?

And we gonna not give Pippen any kind of slack for having a bad game when he lost his father 3 weeks before that game 7? But we excuse Jordan for retiring a few weeks before the start of the season because his dad died? Wow.

You have to understand who I'm replying to, lol. These same guys call Jordan "dad killer".

[dankok8]

I actually agree. The teams Jordan had without Pippen weren't good. But we're in Rome. And in Rome, context doesn't matter. That's why you have people knocking Pippen for not winning in 94. Or why you have people ripping Pippen for not winning in 00 at 35 years old. And you're in those chats saying the same shit against Pippen that you justify for Jordan. Those 94 and 95 teams were not good enough to win a championship and or got jobbed in 94, or Pippen while good, had too many miles and was too old in 00 to lead a team to a championship. So which one is it Dankok? Make up your mind.

Pippen wasn't good enough to lead a team to a championship as the best player but then again only twenty or so players in the 75-year history of the sport have been. It's not a slight on Pippen. Not many titles teams in league history would still win the title if you take away their best player? I think the 1994 Bulls weren't good enough to win a championship. Their win total of 55 wins (and actually 57-win pace with Pippen playing IIRC) is misleading. Their SRS which is a better predictor of team quality than W/L record was only +2.87 good for 11th in the league. They were 14th in ORtg and 6th in DRtg out of 27 teams. The Bulls overachieved in the regular season because they were motivated to prove they were still good without Jordan. And they were pretty good. Just not championship good... There is also the fact that the Bulls added Toni Kukoc in that 1993 offseason and he could have been worth a couple of wins as well. The 1993 Bulls before Jordan's retirement were sleepwalking through the regular season and still had a +6.19 SRS which was 4th in the league. 2nd in ORtg and 7th in DRtg. The 1993 Bulls were objectively a much better team than the 1994 Bulls despite comparable win totals.

You might have misunderstood some of my posts because I was responding to people who posted numbers without context. Unfortunately since this forum is full of Lebron stans, people actually perceive me as a Jordan stan which is kind of hilarious. I think Jordan is better than Lebron but I don't worship Jordan and have stated over and over that other players have GOAT cases as well. Anyways I never thought I would be defending MJ even a couple of years ago. If you check my posts from a few years ago I was a lot more pro-Lebron but then the hype train became too much and I started seeing Lebron as overrated.

Context is everything! :cheers:

[3ba11]

Jordan unfairly got a bad reputation for being hard on teammates because his teammates were THAT BAD so he had to treat them like children..

He would never be that way with real players like Worthy or Kareem that didn't need to be raised like children - they dominated instead of wetting the bed with role player low production

Only Jordan had low-producing bums like Kerr, Paxson Pippen, or Cartwright that need whipping into shape - these guys were always wetting the bed and were usually bums

[97 bulls]

Jordan unfairly got a bad reputation for being hard on teammates because his teammates were THAT BAD so he had to treat them like children..

He would never be that way with real players like Worthy or Kareem that didn't need to be raised like children - they dominated instead of wetting the bed with role player low production

Only Jordan had low-producing bums like Kerr, Paxson Pippen, or Cartwright that need whipping into shape - these guys were always wetting the bed and were usually bums

Oh shut up. He had great teammates. He played with 3 other hall of farmers and 2 hall of fame coaches.

[2much_knowledge]

They didn't win the first 2 seasons because Pippen sabotaged the Pistons series. They had Phil in '90 when MJ averaged 37/7/7/3 in the Playoffs and they were a game from the Finals and winning it all. What happened in that Game 7?

Pippen + Grant + Hodges + Cartwright + Armstrong combined for 28 pts on 11/57 shooting (19.29%) vs MJ's 13/27 FG for 31 points. Maybe MJ should have played less team basketball in that game and taken those shots himself.

Let me quote Scott Maurice

" As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. Maybe it was the pressure of the game. I wasn't myself on the basketball court. I couldn't answer the bell"

The End

[97 bulls]

Pippen wasn't good enough to lead a team to a championship as the best player but then again only twenty or so players in the 75-year history of the sport have been. It's not a slight on Pippen. Not many titles teams in league history would still win the title if you take away their best player? I think the 1994 Bulls weren't good enough to win a championship. Their win total of 55 wins (and actually 57-win pace with Pippen playing IIRC) is misleading. Their SRS which is a better predictor of team quality than W/L record was only +2.87 good for 11th in the league. They were 14th in ORtg and 6th in DRtg out of 27 teams. The Bulls overachieved in the regular season because they were motivated to prove they were still good without Jordan. And they were pretty good. Just not championship good... There is also the fact that the Bulls added Toni Kukoc in that 1993 offseason and he could have been worth a couple of wins as well. The 1993 Bulls before Jordan's retirement were sleepwalking through the regular season and still had a +6.19 SRS which was 4th in the league. 2nd in ORtg and 7th in DRtg. The 1993 Bulls were objectively a much better team than the 1994 Bulls despite comparable win totals.

You might have misunderstood some of my posts because I was responding to people who posted numbers without context. Unfortunately since this forum is full of Lebron stans, people actually perceive me as a Jordan stan which is kind of hilarious. I think Jordan is better than Lebron but I don't worship Jordan and have stated over and over that other players have GOAT cases as well. Anyways I never thought I would be defending MJ even a couple of years ago. If you check my posts from a few years ago I was a lot more pro-Lebron but then the hype train became too much and I started seeing Lebron as overrated.

Context is everything! :cheers:

Context is everything. How do you know he wasn't good enough? The context has to be applied. Did he have the team? How many times did Pippen have top tier talent around him while in his prime to say what he couldn't do? Did he have a fair chance?

That's what's funny. See guys like Worthy, McHale, are ways looked at as being good enough to be the best player on a championship team, even though they never got remotely close to doing so. Pippen did.

So how are you quantifying Pippen nor being able to win a championship? Because the teams he led weren't as good as the teams Jordan led. Why didn't Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Wilkins to name a few not win a championship or win championship as the teams best player as in the case with Robinson.

You don't get to say Pippen wasn't good enough and then excuse the players I listed for not doing what Pippen wasn't able to do when those players had a whole career to win as the best player where Pippen only had 1. Truth be told, Pippen faired as well as anybody else. The only reason the 20 players you alluded to have rings is because they had one of the top 3 teams that year. Typically players aren't expected to win unless they have the most talent. Unless you're Scottie Pippen.

I mean let's be fair.

[3ba11]

Oh shut up. He had great teammates. He played with 3 other hall of farmers and 2 hall of fame coaches.


We're all adults here and know the facts

Kukoc was HOF for his euro career, so you're the one lying and stretching the truth

and Jordan 3-peated from 91-93' with 1 HOF and a 1st time, nobody coach - Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach in 90/91, while Jordan was already a goat candidate.

Those are the facts

[97 bulls]

Let me quote Scott Maurice

" As the pressure grew, the pounding grew. Maybe it was the pressure of the game. I wasn't myself on the basketball court. I couldn't answer the bell"

The End

His father died 3 week before that game 7 jackass. The pistons were literally trying to hurt him. Yall don't cut Pippen any slack. He may have got the migraine by being kicked and elbowed into the head by the Pistons.

[3ba11]

His father died 3 week before that game 7 jackass. The pistons were literally trying to hurt him. Yall don't cut Pippen any slack. He may have got the migraine by being kicked and elbowed into the head by the Pistons.


Jordan 3-peated from 91-93' with a single all-star teammate and a 1st-time coach

Only the goat can do that

[97 bulls]

We're all adults here and know the facts

Kukoc was HOF for his euro career, so you're the one lying and stretching the truth

and Jordan 3-peated from 91-93' with 1 HOF and a 1st time, nobody coach - Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach in 90/91, while Jordan was already a goat candidate.

Those are the facts

Kukoc is a hall of famer for his basketball career. Not just what he did in Europe. 3 championships, 6th man of the year.

[90sgoat]

Jordan definitely has sociopathic traits.

And Pippen is right that he was probably very important in acting as the battered wife who keeps the family together.

[outofstomach]

His father died 3 week before that game 7 jackass. The pistons were literally trying to hurt him. Yall don't cut Pippen any slack. He may have got the migraine by being kicked and elbowed into the head by the Pistons.

are you actually ****ing serious?

[outofstomach]

that has to be the absolutely most insane, brain-dead take that i have had the displeasure of reading on here, and that is definitely an accomplishment, how the **** do i block someone on here?

[Axe]

Oh shut up. He had great teammates. He played with 3 other hall of farmers and 2 hall of fame coaches.
This.

[dankok8]

Context is everything. How do you know he wasn't good enough? The context has to be applied. Did he have the team? How many times did Pippen have top tier talent around him while in his prime to say what he couldn't do? Did he have a fair chance?

That's what's funny. See guys like Worthy, McHale, are ways looked at as being good enough to be the best player on a championship team, even though they never got remotely close to doing so. Pippen did.

So how are you quantifying Pippen nor being able to win a championship? Because the teams he led weren't as good as the teams Jordan led. Why didn't Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Wilkins to name a few not win a championship or win championship as the teams best player as in the case with Robinson.

You don't get to say Pippen wasn't good enough and then excuse the players I listed for not doing what Pippen wasn't able to do when those players had a whole career to win as the best player where Pippen only had 1. Truth be told, Pippen faired as well as anybody else. The only reason the 20 players you alluded to have rings is because they had one of the top 3 teams that year. Typically players aren't expected to win unless they have the most talent. Unless you're Scottie Pippen.

I mean let's be fair.

I don't think Worthy or McHale are capable of winning titles as #1 options either. I have Pippen over both of them on my all-time list. And over Nique who was basically just a scorer.

I am fair. I just honestly don't see Pippen as a #1 option type of player. You probably have to score more than 22 ppg OR be a defensive anchor i.e. defensive big like Garnett to win titles as the clear-cut best player. There are a few exceptions but generally best players on title teams are either elite offensive players or elite two-way big men. Pippen fits into neither of those molds. Pippen at his peak in 1994 in terms of impact still falls well short of guys like Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Shaq and Hakeem. Pippen and Ewing are comparable around 1994 but 1990 peak Ewing was a bit better than any version of Pippen. Ewing was so good offensively that season and couldn't really sustain it as he got older.

[ShawkFactory]

We're all adults here and know the facts

Kukoc was HOF for his euro career, so you're the one lying and stretching the truth

and Jordan 3-peated from 91-93' with 1 HOF and a 1st time, nobody coach - Phil was a 1st time, nobody coach in 90/91, while Jordan was already a goat candidate.

Those are the facts

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/32400000/Chandler-chandler-bing-32402354-245-230.gif

[97 bulls]

I don't think Worthy or McHale are capable of winning titles as #1 options either. I have Pippen over both of them on my all-time list. And over Nique who was basically just a scorer.

I am fair. I just honestly don't see Pippen as a #1 option type of player. You probably have to score more than 22 ppg OR be a defensive anchor i.e. defensive big like Garnett to win titles as the clear-cut best player. There are a few exceptions but generally best players on title teams are either elite offensive players or elite two-way big men. Pippen fits into neither of those molds. Pippen at his peak in 1994 in terms of impact still falls well short of guys like Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Shaq and Hakeem.Pippen and Ewing are comparable around 1994 but 1990 peak Ewing was a bit better than any version of Pippen. Ewing was so good offensively that season and couldn't really sustain it as he got older.

Magic on the Lakers, Isiah Thomas of the Bad Boy Pistons, the 08 Celtics, Tim Duncan on the Spurs, the 04 Pistons, that's 14 Championships We're the teams best player was scoring at roughly the same level as Scottie Pippen. The best player on the winningest NBA team ever wasn't a great scorer in Bill Russell. Pippen proved he could be just as effective at anchoring a defense as a great center when he led the Bulls to the 2nd best defense, led the league in steals, and led the league in defensive rating. What he didn't have was a bunch of opportunities and a top 3 team in his prime. Now I'm not saying Pippen is a top 10 level talent, but I put him in that 2nd tier with guys like Wade, Robinson, Nowitzki etc.

[97 bulls]

are you actually ****ing serious?

WTF is wrong with you? You think his father dying and playing a game 7 against a violent team had nothing to do with him being under stress and pressure? What is Pippen a robot?

[outofstomach]

WTF is wrong with you? You think his father dying and playing a game 7 against a violent team had nothing to do with him being under stress and pressure? What is Pippen a robot?

moreso the pistons roughing up Pippen somehow induces a magical migraine, you’re definitely a moron :lol

[97 bulls]

moreso the pistons roughing up Pippen somehow induces a magical migraine, you’re definitely a moron :lol

Not just that asshole, his father dying a few weeks prior as well

[dankok8]

Magic on the Lakers, Isiah Thomas of the Bad Boy Pistons, the 08 Celtics, Tim Duncan on the Spurs, the 04 Pistons, that's 14 Championships We're the teams best player was scoring at roughly the same level as Scottie Pippen. The best player on the winningest NBA team ever wasn't a great scorer in Bill Russell. Pippen proved he could be just as effective at anchoring a defense as a great center when he led the Bulls to the 2nd best defense, led the league in steals, and led the league in defensive rating. What he didn't have was a bunch of opportunities and a top 3 team in his prime. Now I'm not saying Pippen is a top 10 level talent, but I put him in that 2nd tier with guys like Wade, Robinson, Nowitzki etc.

Magic was an elite offensive player. He obviously didn't score a lot but he was the greatest playmaking machine in history. Garnett, Duncan and Russell were elite two-way big men that I mentioned as the other lead dog archetype. It's a big offensive star or a two-way big man. Other kinds of players very rarely lead teams to titles as clear cut best players.

The Bad Boy Pistons are a good counterexample you gave. Isiah in 89 and 90 doesn't fit either of the two archetypes but then again he isn't a big megastar. I could see Pippen winning a ring on such a team as the best player (Isiah and Pippen are the same tier) but those teams are tougher to construct. You typically need really good depth of 3-4 borderline all-stars around the lead player and it's a very delicate balance of egos. And I'm not even sure Pippen could even carry a load offensively to pull it off. Isiah didn't score more than Pippen but he did so in key games and key moments. And if another player is carrying the offense then Pippen isn't the clear-cut best player any more and the argument falls apart. Pippen is an impactful defender but he isn't an anchor like the two-way big men. Pippen's defensive impact is small compared to someone like Garnett or Robinson so if someone else carries a lot of offensive load Pippen won't be clearly the best player any more.

[Bawkish]

moreso the pistons roughing up Pippen somehow induces a magical migraine, you’re definitely a moron :lol

You're literally arguing with a Pippen's chief of advertising here so don't waste it :lol

[TheGoatest]

#NEVERFORGET:

Averaged 37.1 points per game. Fully healthy, played 82 games.
Had a teammate who averaged 14.5 points, 13.1 rebounds and 3.6 assists - numbers which were averaged only by Charles Barkley, Shaq, Garnett, Giannis and Embiid since. Fully healthy, played 82 games.
Still failed to do as well as an all-star-less team led by a rookie version of this guy:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0420/9718/0826/products/The_Rifleman_Chuck_Person_Awn_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1 602520243

Then this happened:

https://i.postimg.cc/sxQfmm9F/23has-Asavior-PIP.jpg

[hateraid]

This is pretty much Jordan's only real weakness. While it could be effective and necessary, that in your face leadership style needed Phil and Pippen to balance things out. It is also true the other way around, you wont win trying to please everybody on the team and telling them things they wanna hear. Somebody needs to be the asshole and tell them what they need to hear to make the team better and tougher.

Being critical does not mean berating teammates. Berating teammates does not elevate a team

[hateraid]

You're literally arguing with a Pippen's chief of advertising here so don't waste it :lol

So basically the same applies with you and Jordan. Gotcha

[Blazers32]

is Pippen broke? I see he wants to make some money throwing such statements.

[RogueBorg]

And do you not blame Lebron's supporting cast for all the Finals he's lost?

Yes 8ball does.

[RogueBorg]

Pippen is one of the best players of all time and Horance Grant was an all star. Cartwright threatened to beat the shit out of MJ. He should have.

LOLing at Grant's 1 All-Star appearance.

[RogueBorg]

Context is everything. How do you know he wasn't good enough? The context has to be applied. Did he have the team? How many times did Pippen have top tier talent around him while in his prime to say what he couldn't do? Did he have a fair chance?

That's what's funny. See guys like Worthy, McHale, are ways looked at as being good enough to be the best player on a championship team, even though they never got remotely close to doing so. Pippen did.

So how are you quantifying Pippen nor being able to win a championship? Because the teams he led weren't as good as the teams Jordan led. Why didn't Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Wilkins to name a few not win a championship or win championship as the teams best player as in the case with Robinson.

You don't get to say Pippen wasn't good enough and then excuse the players I listed for not doing what Pippen wasn't able to do when those players had a whole career to win as the best player where Pippen only had 1. Truth be told, Pippen faired as well as anybody else. The only reason the 20 players you alluded to have rings is because they had one of the top 3 teams that year. Typically players aren't expected to win unless they have the most talent. Unless you're Scottie Pippen.

I mean let's be fair.

There was only one year the Bulls lost to the Knicks in the playoffs in the 90's...

[Reggie43]

Being critical does not mean berating teammates. Berating teammates does not elevate a team

You must have missed the part when I called it a weakness?

[jlip]

What Pippen is saying is not particularly new information. I made the following post on here over a decade ago.


"On the Bulls he [Pippen] was probably the player most liked by the others. He mingled. He could bring out the best in the players and communicate the best. Leadership, real leadership, is one of his strengths. Everybody would say Michael is a great leader. He leads by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but it's a leadership of patting the back, support."

Phil Jackson
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017938/5/index.htm

"Scottie was our team leader. He was the guy that directed our offense and he was the guy that took on a lot of big challenges defensively..."

Phil Jackson
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2005/12/scottie-pippens-place-in-basketball.html

Bill Wennington echoes the same sentiments in his book, entitled Bill Wennington's Tales from the Bulls Hardwood. He says

"Scottie was my favorite Bull. It's not the most popular thing to say in Chicago, because Michael is supposed to be everybody's favorite. And I loved Michael as a person and as a teammate. I just appreciated Scottie more...

Michael will test you everyday. But Michael will also let you burn in the coach's eyes to see how you handle the situation. Scottie handled his relationships with his teammates differently, and better, in my opinion ...

My first season with the Bulls was the 1993-94 season, the first one Michael did not play because of his initial retirement. In that season I saw Scottie as No. 1...I played with a lot of players--Chris Webber, Mark Aguirre, Sam Perkins--Scottie was head and shoulders above all of those players in terms of leadership and what he stood for as a team basketball player...

...But what Scottie represented to me is a player whom I would pick 1st for my team every time. Even if Michael was available, I would pick Scottie Pippen...

...Scottie led that team ['93-'94 Bulls] to 55 wins...Maybe it's apples to oranges, but that season was an indication of what Scottie was capable of doing as a team leader."
http://books.google.com/books?id=EipQcbzkyvoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=bill+wennington&hl=en&ei=vTiaTKq6MoG0lQeMvJTuDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false pp.11-17

[999Guy]

Seems you have to be an unprincipled beta bitch to think of Jordan as great at pretty much anything outside of being an amazing lead guard in an offense.

Complete flawed jackass mentally.

[97 bulls]

There was only one year the Bulls lost to the Knicks in the playoffs in the 90's...

And what does that mean? Let's cut the false equivalentcies. Nobody I'm their right mind would suggest that the Bulls should've won without MJ. And I'd you do, what does that say for MJ?

[TheGoatest]

LOLing at Grant's 1 All-Star appearance.

Grant's 1 All-Star appearance happened in the exact 1 season he played with on the Bulls but without Jordan.
The fact that this was the case is at least as much of a bad look for Jordan as it is for Grant.

[RogueBorg]

Grant's 1 All-Star appearance happened in the exact 1 season he played with on the Bulls but without Jordan.
The fact that this was the case is at least as much of a bad look for Jordan as it is for Grant.

How many all-star appearances did Grant make with the Magic and the Lakers? I'll wait while you Google it.

[RogueBorg]

Grant's 1 All-Star appearance happened in the exact 1 season he played with on the Bulls but without Jordan.
The fact that this was the case is at least as much of a bad look for Jordan as it is for Grant.

So in '93-'94 Pippen had 2 all-star teammates and they got bounced in the second round. Jordan had 1 all-star teammate from 92-93 and they won the chip each year. In fact, he had no all-star teammates in 91.

[hateraid]

So in '93-'94 Pippen had 2 all-star teammates and they got bounced in the second round. Jordan had 1 all-star teammate from 92-93 and they won the chip each year. In fact, he had no all-star teammates in 91.

The fact that they ARE all star calibre is relevant. Otherwise fukk outta here with that Kyrie bs.

[TheGoatest]

How many all-star appearances did Grant make with the Magic and the Lakers? I'll wait while you Google it.

Grant's All-Star appearances with the Magic, the Lakers and the Bulls while playing without Jordan: 1
Grant's All-Star appearances with the Magic, the Lakers and the Bulls while playing with Jordan: 0


So in '93-'94 Pippen had 2 all-star teammates and they got bounced in the second round. Jordan had 1 all-star teammate from 92-93 and they won the chip each year. In fact, he had no all-star teammates in 91.

Yes, something sure was bouncing. It was that little ball inside the refs whistle as he blew air in it while calling out one of the most bullshit calls ever:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdOzWd6XEAAkFpW.jpg

The type of call which the Bulls always got called in their favor when ref-darling Jordan was playing for them.

[RogueBorg]

Grant's All-Star appearances with the Magic, the Lakers and the Bulls while playing without Jordan: 1
Grant's All-Star appearances with the Magic, the Lakers and the Bulls while playing with Jordan: 0



Yes, something sure was bouncing. It was that little ball inside the refs whistle as he blew air in it while calling out one of the most bullshit calls ever:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdOzWd6XEAAkFpW.jpg

The type of call which the Bulls always got called in their favor when ref-darling Jordan was playing for them.

Nice attempt at a deflection. What do ref bad calls have to do with the number of all-star appearances for Grant?

[Hey Yo]

Hubert Davis was another top nemesis of Jordan's

[3ba11]

Grant's All-Star appearances with the Magic, the Lakers and the Bulls while playing without Jordan: 1
Grant's All-Star appearances with the Magic, the Lakers and the Bulls while playing with Jordan: 0



Yes, something sure was bouncing. It was that little ball inside the refs whistle as he blew air in it while calling out one of the most bullshit calls ever:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CdOzWd6XEAAkFpW.jpg

The type of call which the Bulls always got called in their favor when ref-darling Jordan was playing for them.


.
Pippen hacks the shit out of Hubert:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif



Here's what Pippen did right BEFORE the dumb foul on Hubert Davis - he passes up a huge clearout and gives it to BJ for a rushed shot:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/_p33FZ.gif



Phil was pissed at Pippen after that - he already knew that Pippen couldn't be trusted when it mattered and that he should've gone with Kukoc again:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/8uUPI_.gif


So Pippen choked many times - the "sit out" game, the "dumb foul" game, and Game 7, plus a lot of other little chokes in between.. Ewing easily outplayed Pippen because Ewing was a real 1st option, while Pippen wasn't even a 2nd option without MJ

Pippen won 55 in 94' because he had a defending 3-peat champion - without that, the Bulls were borderline lottery in 95' until MJ returned to restore 3-peat capability.. It isn't like the 95' Bulls were going to recover without MJ and be a contender in 96' - only MJ elevated them from borderline lottery in 95' to 3-peat caliber in 96'

[RogueBorg]

.
Pippen hacks the shit out of Hubert:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif



Here's what Pippen did right BEFORE the dumb foul on Hubert Davis - he passes up a huge clearout and gives it to BJ for a rushed shot:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/_p33FZ.gif



Phil was pissed at Pippen after that - he already knew that Pippen couldn't be trusted when it mattered and that he should've gone with Kukoc again:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/8uUPI_.gif


So Pippen choked many times - the "sit out" game, the "dumb foul" game, and Game 7, plus a lot of other little chokes in between.. Ewing easily outplayed Pippen because Ewing was a real 1st option, while Pippen wasn't even a 2nd option without MJ

Pippen won 55 in 94' because he had a defending 3-peat champion - without that, the Bulls were borderline lottery in 95' until MJ returned to restore 3-peat capability

Pippen passing to Armstrong sure reminds me of LeBeta passing to Kyrie, except Kyrie hit the shot.

[ELITEpower23]

Eerily similar players

https://i.postimg.cc/8PLMxbGv/Demar-De-Jordan.jpg

[Micku]

I don't think Worthy or McHale are capable of winning titles as #1 options either. I have Pippen over both of them on my all-time list. And over Nique who was basically just a scorer.

I am fair. I just honestly don't see Pippen as a #1 option type of player. You probably have to score more than 22 ppg OR be a defensive anchor i.e. defensive big like Garnett to win titles as the clear-cut best player. There are a few exceptions but generally best players on title teams are either elite offensive players or elite two-way big men. Pippen fits into neither of those molds. Pippen at his peak in 1994 in terms of impact still falls well short of guys like Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Shaq and Hakeem. Pippen and Ewing are comparable around 1994 but 1990 peak Ewing was a bit better than any version of Pippen. Ewing was so good offensively that season and couldn't really sustain it as he got older.

Y'know I changed my mind about Pippen being a #1 option and could win a chip. I used to think it wasn't possible, but now I think it is. Like if the Pistons 04 could do it, I'm sure if you place Pippen in a similar type of team, he could've. It also depends on the era and who are they facing of course. But I would say Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley and Robinson would probably be easier to build around than Pippen due to the fact I think they are better players that have better impact. I think they are better #1 options even when Pippen played at his peak.

I do think Pippen is trippin when he compares himself to KD and think he is just as good as a player. It does seem from the reviews of his new book, he is rather whiny and jealous of MJ accomplishments and the attention he gets. And he thinks he doesn't get enough respect and praise. I wonder if it isn't just from fans and the media, but his peers and the current generation. I feel like this isn't the way to do it tho. And he ain't MJ, so he just will never get the praise or the respect of that type of lvl. He could talk about being a better teammate tho, but it just sounds like being petty in a way, at least how Pippen is handling it. He also talks about not being a starter in 1990 even though Larry Bird was better than him at the time and Barkley.

[3ba11]

Y'know I changed my mind about Pippen being a #1 option and could win a chip. I used to think it wasn't possible, but now I think it is. Like if the Pistons 04 could do it, I'm sure if you place Pippen in a similar type of team, he could've. It also depends on the era and who are they facing of course. But I would say Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley and Robinson would probably be easier to build around than Pippen due to the fact I think they are better players that have better impact. I think they are better #1 options even when Pippen played at his peak.

I do think Pippen is trippin when he compares himself to KD and think he is just as good as a player. It does seem from the reviews of his new book, he is rather whiny and jealous of MJ accomplishments and the attention he gets. And he thinks he doesn't get enough respect and praise. I wonder if it isn't just from fans and the media, but his peers and the current generation. I feel like this isn't the way to do it tho. And he ain't MJ, so he just will never get the praise or the respect of that type of lvl. He could talk about being a better teammate tho, but it just sounds like being petty in a way, at least how Pippen is handling it. He also talks about not being a starter in 1990 even though Larry Bird was better than him at the time and Barkley.


The 2004 Pistons required Chauncey Billups to be extremely clutch and hit a ton of big shots to win FMVP (Chauncey earned clutch-related nicknames from his goat level of clutchness throughout those playoffs), so Pippen couldn't be #1 option and win with those Pistons.

However, the 2004 Pistons won with Tyshaun Prince at SF, so they can win with a ton of SF's and could probably win with Pippen, but not as 1st option because clutch is required from a champion 1st option.

And I say "probably" because Pippen was a negative in the 4th quarter and when the game was tight (clutch time), so it isn't a guarantee they could win with him.. Ultimately, it means exactly nothing to cite the most balanced team that ever won and say that Player X could've won with them.

[Axe]

The 2004 Pistons required Chauncey Billups to be extremely clutch and hit a ton of big shots to win FMVP (Chauncey earned clutch-related nicknames from his goat level of clutchness throughout those playoffs), so Pippen couldn't be #1 option and win with those Pistons.

However, the 2004 Pistons won with Tyshaun Prince at SF, so they can win with a ton of SF's and could probably win with Pippen, but not as 1st option because clutch is required from a champion 1st option.

And I say "probably" because Pippen was a negative in the 4th quarter and when the game was tight (clutch time), so it isn't a guarantee they could win with him.. Ultimately, it means exactly nothing to cite the most balanced team that ever won and say that Player X could've won with them.
Meanwhile, it took kobe bricking a lot of shots and being selfish that led to his team losing in the 2004 finals while they'd probably do fine without him.

[kawhileonard2]

No excuses.

LeBron had even less help in 2018 playoffs and made the finals.

Lebron had Iverson, Wade, Melo, Dwight, Duncan and got bronze medal.

Lebron with Shaq was bounced in round 2. Wade with Shaq won a title, Kobe with Shaq won 3 titles.

[97 bulls]

Y'know I changed my mind about Pippen being a #1 option and could win a chip. I used to think it wasn't possible, but now I think it is. Like if the Pistons 04 could do it, I'm sure if you place Pippen in a similar type of team, he could've. It also depends on the era and who are they facing of course. But I would say Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley and Robinson would probably be easier to build around than Pippen due to the fact I think they are better players that have better impact. I think they are better #1 options even when Pippen played at his peak.

I do think Pippen is trippin when he compares himself to KD and think he is just as good as a player. It does seem from the reviews of his new book, he is rather whiny and jealous of MJ accomplishments and the attention he gets. And he thinks he doesn't get enough respect and praise. I wonder if it isn't just from fans and the media, but his peers and the current generation. I feel like this isn't the way to do it tho. And he ain't MJ, so he just will never get the praise or the respect of that type of lvl. He could talk about being a better teammate tho, but it just sounds like being petty in a way, at least how Pippen is handling it. He also talks about not being a starter in 1990 even though Larry Bird was better than him at the time and Barkley.

Give the 94 Bulls an Allen Houston level SG, and he'd have a great chance at winning a championship as the best player. Replace Tayshaun Prince with prime Pippen on that 2004 team. Theh probably win 2-3 championships and are considered an all-time great team. And Pippen would be the clear cut best player.

But what I don't get is, why would you take players like Robinson and Barkley over Pippen? I mean, we saw what those two could do with a combined 20+ years leading a team to a title and they failed. What's the difference?

[dankok8]

Y'know I changed my mind about Pippen being a #1 option and could win a chip. I used to think it wasn't possible, but now I think it is. Like if the Pistons 04 could do it, I'm sure if you place Pippen in a similar type of team, he could've. It also depends on the era and who are they facing of course. But I would say Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley and Robinson would probably be easier to build around than Pippen due to the fact I think they are better players that have better impact. I think they are better #1 options even when Pippen played at his peak.

I do think Pippen is trippin when he compares himself to KD and think he is just as good as a player. It does seem from the reviews of his new book, he is rather whiny and jealous of MJ accomplishments and the attention he gets. And he thinks he doesn't get enough respect and praise. I wonder if it isn't just from fans and the media, but his peers and the current generation. I feel like this isn't the way to do it tho. And he ain't MJ, so he just will never get the praise or the respect of that type of lvl. He could talk about being a better teammate tho, but it just sounds like being petty in a way, at least how Pippen is handling it. He also talks about not being a starter in 1990 even though Larry Bird was better than him at the time and Barkley.

Long time no see Micku! How've you been bud? :D

This is what I literally said in the post after the one you quoted! Pippen could definitely win as the best player on an ensemble squad like the 2004 Pistons. However as you said, those teams are tough to construct. That's why there haven't been too many championship teams like that.

[Bawkish]

Y'know I changed my mind about Pippen being a #1 option and could win a chip. I used to think it wasn't possible, but now I think it is. Like if the Pistons 04 could do it, I'm sure if you place Pippen in a similar type of team, he could've. It also depends on the era and who are they facing of course. But I would say Hakeem, Shaq, Barkley and Robinson would probably be easier to build around than Pippen due to the fact I think they are better players that have better impact. I think they are better #1 options even when Pippen played at his peak.

I do think Pippen is trippin when he compares himself to KD and think he is just as good as a player. It does seem from the reviews of his new book, he is rather whiny and jealous of MJ accomplishments and the attention he gets. And he thinks he doesn't get enough respect and praise. I wonder if it isn't just from fans and the media, but his peers and the current generation. I feel like this isn't the way to do it tho. And he ain't MJ, so he just will never get the praise or the respect of that type of lvl. He could talk about being a better teammate tho, but it just sounds like being petty in a way, at least how Pippen is handling it. He also talks about not being a starter in 1990 even though Larry Bird was better than him at the time and Barkley.

I remember one time in Open Court when they're arguing if there's any player that was "Lebron" before Lebron. 1st thing came up was Grant Hill, then Chuck suggest what about Pippen, and oh boy you could see the reactions of Chauncey, CWebb and especially Zeke. Zeke about to have a breakdown on that particular topic

[Axe]

I remember one time in Open Court when they're arguing if there's any player that was "Lebron" before Lebron. 1st thing came up was Grant Hill, then Chuck suggest what about Pippen, and oh boy you could see the reactions of Chauncey, CWebb and especially Zeke. Zeke about to have a breakdown on that particular topic
You always think of him lmao.

[Bawkish]

You always think of him lmao.

like stalking me now?

[Micku]

Long time no see Micku! How've you been bud? :D

This is what I literally said in the post after the one you quoted! Pippen could definitely win as the best player on an ensemble squad like the 2004 Pistons. However as you said, those teams are tough to construct. That's why there haven't been too many championship teams like that.

Wassssup man!! I've been busy, but this Pippen thing is pretty crazy lol. I had to come over here to see what ppl were saying. I know the trolls were gonn'a go rampage and hide the actual good b-ball discussions. But I couldn't help myself.

It is good to see y'all here tho!


Give the 94 Bulls an Allen Houston level SG, and he'd have a great chance at winning a championship as the best player. Replace Tayshaun Prince with prime Pippen on that 2004 team. Theh probably win 2-3 championships and are considered an all-time great team. And Pippen would be the clear cut best player.

But what I don't get is, why would you take players like Robinson and Barkley over Pippen? I mean, we saw what those two could do with a combined 20+ years leading a team to a title and they failed. What's the difference?

Better numbers. Better impact. They are more proven as the number 1 guy, tho not of Pippen's didn't get enough seasons to prove it. Although they didn't win a chip either as the number 1 and Barkley didn't win any at all. It indicates that Pippen as the number 1 guy it would be just as or more difficult...at least to me. However it depends on the team construction. It's not impossible. The Bulls were an amazing team, even without MJ. It wasn't always the case tho.

Give Pippen a solid team at his very peak, then I think they could be a championship contender for sure. Would they win it? I dunno about that. Hard to say. But the same thing with the other stars with better numbers too. Could they get to the finals? It's possible. Like the Bulls nearly beat the Knicks in 94. Should've beat the Knicks. But even if they beat the Knicks, would they beat the Pacers? While you may say the Bulls beat'em in the RS 3-1, the Knicks swept the pacers too. And they still went seven games.

And the Bulls had a losing record 1-3 against the knicks in 94, but could've beaten them.

So who knows. But given that Ewing went to the finals, and took the Bulls when they had MJ, Pippen and Grant to the brick, a peak Ewing would've been a easier piece to build around as well.

But do you see what I'm doing? It's a dance that could go back and forward with a bunch of players. It just all depends on the team. A bunch of what ifs too and a bit of luck.

Without MJ, Pippen would've been similar as those guys. With Barkley in his case, he ran into the Bulls where MJ averaged 41 ppg. Like who does that? Nobody in the history of the league ever did that before or since. Granted, they never got back there, but it happens in sports. That was their peak. David Robinson ran into Hakeem at his peak, but David Robinson always underperforms in the playoffs. So you got that argument.

It is unknown whatever Pippen could've done any better as the guy if he had to lead the rest of his career. But if we were to assume if Pippen continued to play like he did in 94 continuously, it would be something to see. I still don't know and I personally doubt he would've won. But without MJ, it's pretty much anybody's game.

[Micku]

I remember one time in Open Court when they're arguing if there's any player that was "Lebron" before Lebron. 1st thing came up was Grant Hill, then Chuck suggest what about Pippen, and oh boy you could see the reactions of Chauncey, CWebb and especially Zeke. Zeke about to have a breakdown on that particular topic

Hahaha yeah.

Nobody respects Pippen like a superstar like that. At least his peers it seems. lol
Like Zeke don't believe Pippen was on his lvl. Shaq of course. I think CWebb don't think so either. Reggie Miller. I think the whole crew didn't think Pippen was on Grant Hill's lvl. Ernie even made a joke about it.

But especially Zeke. He mentioned that he could understand if MJ didn't want him on the dream team. But Pippen had no right to talk. lol!

It would appear only the Bulls teammates respect Pippen more so than the players outside of the team. And John Sally lol. I think he said he thinks Pippen is better than MJ, then the interviewer laughed and was like, "Naw, you don't believe that. That's the detriot in you coming out," and he laughed said there is some truth to that I think.

They all acknowledge that Pippen is a good player tho. But they don't think he is that guy tho. Like he don't get the respect similar to the other sidekicks along with the stars. Like Mchale/Bird, Magic/Kareem, Wade/LeBron, Curry/KD, and especially Shaq/Kobe.

I personally think Ewing is pretty underrated and Joe Dumars. Dwight Howard is underrated too given the top 75 and he is not on it.

Pippen is overrated or underrated depending who you talk to. But I think his peers don't think he is that dude. Current gen don't respect Pippen as much either. Especially KD, although KD was bit sensitive. But Pippen thinks he is just as good as KD..hahah.

But y'know who did respect Pippen a lot? Kobe. He loved watching him play defense. He once invited Kayne West to play ball or whatever. But instead of playing ball, they watched Pippen tapes. Kobe loved watching Pippen play defense. He thought it was unreal how much ground he would cover. He even have a video of his detailed series just on Pippen. And even he wouldn't think Pippen was good or as important as MJ.

Everybody studies MJ or Kobe tho. They both had very similar games. KD mentions watching MJ play defense too, he found it amazing on his timing and his reflexes. Everyone who watch him play d mentions that. And he was like, "No wonder why they call him the black cat."

Pippen never got that respect tho even though he was amazing defensively. Other ppl do acknowledge it and I think his defense got more acknowledge over time. However I just feel him releasing a book talking about MJ and sort'a comparing himself to him is a bad idea to convince the masses and the peers. They would never consider him to be as important or just as good as MJ. MJ is MJ man. He has the stats, accomplishments, the moves, and the popularity. Made the league a lot of money.

[getting_old]

there were 3 championship rosters with a manic driven star and a 2nd that didn't quite care enough to reach his potential, for which the dominant was vocal in his concerns

Bird - McHale
Jordan - Pippen
Kobe - Shaq

Magic was kind of like the less-driven role, he couldn't bother to work on a decent jump shot, the exception to the rule, and KA-J wasn't publicly motivated enough to badmouth his teammate, not that he was a nice guy....

[expansionera]

Pippen was the locker room leader and captain of the team, Jordan—much like Wilt Chamberlain before him—chased statistical accolades over any sort of team success.

[97 bulls]

Pippen was the locker room leader and captain of the team, Jordan—much like Wilt Chamberlain before him—chased statistical accolades over any sort of team success.

Bingo@!!!!!

Pippen has always been a team first guy. Winning a championship requires far more than just being talented.

Shaq and MJ could run roughshod over the league. But how long until one or the other developes an issue with their role? Like Kobe did.

Put Shaq and Jordan on the same team, for 20 years and an age difference of a couple years and one or the other is no longer looked at the same way.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pippen being overrated by the same clueless posters.

:oldlol:

If you put Shaq and Jordan together, they would completely annhilate the league. Pippen's 'leadership' was nothing more than being a reliable sidekick. Period. He was and has always been jealous of Mike.

[97 bulls]

Pippen being overrated by the same clueless posters.

:oldlol:

If you put Shaq and Jordan together, they would completely annhilate the league. Pippen's 'leadership' was nothing more than being a reliable sidekick. Period. He was and has always been jealous of Mike.

Comprehension. Jordan and Pippen and the Bulls completely annihilated the league. 72, 69, 67, able to remain competitive with with Jordan gone in 94, able to remain competitive with Pippen gone in 98. And 6 championships in 8 years. Lol if that ain't annihilation relative to other dynasties, I don't know what is.

But here's where the comprehension come in. I said Shaq and Jordan would run roughshod over the league. But what I also said was how long would one be willing to sacrifice their personal glory for team success and watch as the other gets all the credit before he wants to break off and do his own thing like Kobe did. No other dynasty can say that their two best players shared their primes together and stay together as long as Jordan and Pippen.

Again, why did Kobe leave?

Why did Durant leave?

Why did Irving leave?

And let's be honest, by all accounts, Jordan was a terrible teammate. He all but admitted it. It takes a special type of player to be good enough to do what Pippen did in Jordan's hiatus and be willing to take a backseat his whole career. And be willing to stand beside him while he behaved the way he did.

If either Shaq or Jordan is forced to play behind the other all their career, they wouldn't be looked at as we see then today. Kobe was not nearly as respected for his role in winning those 3 championships with Shaq as he was for winning those two. If anything Gasol saved Bryant's legacy. Because the Lakers were looked at as a joke before Gasol came. That's why Bryant publicly demanded a trade. Let's stop with the revisionist history.

[ShawkFactory]

Based on what I’ve heard from Horace and Kerr (on top of Pippen obviously), I don’t think Jordan’s style in practice necessarily made them better. At least when it came to his temper/competitiveness.

The Last Dance made it seem like Jordan was a god in practice, but Horace was basically saying how people would buck back at Jordan all the time and not out of being angry so much as just wanting him to shut the fvck up, but knuckle if it’s there.

He knocked at Kerr, which is why he felt bad because Kerr apparently isn’t the only one who let him have it like that.

[TheCorporation]

1994 Pippen would have won a championship with Demar Derozan in place of Pete Myers whereas Jordan had Oakley and Woolridge and could not win a fu**ing playoff game :lol

Jordan needs Pippen. Pippen needs Derozan.

[Micku]

Based on what I’ve heard from Horace and Kerr (on top of Pippen obviously), I don’t think Jordan’s style in practice necessarily made them better. At least when it came to his temper/competitiveness.

The Last Dance made it seem like Jordan was a god in practice, but Horace was basically saying how people would buck back at Jordan all the time and not out of being angry so much as just wanting him to shut the fvck up, but knuckle if it’s there.

He knocked at Kerr, which is why he felt bad because Kerr apparently isn’t the only one who let him have it like that.


Eh...it depends on who you talk to. He was pretty harsh on his teammates and a jerk. But they did say, "I guess it worked," as mentioned in the documentary.



Another former teammate, Will Perdue, didn't mince words when recalling what it was like to practice with Jordan: "Let's not get it wrong, he was an asshole. He was a jerk. He crossed the line numerous times. But as time goes on, and you think back about what he was actually trying to accomplish, you were like, Yeah, he was a hell of a teammate."



Ultimately, "he was pushing us all to be better because he wanted to win," said Bill Wennington, who played with Jordan and the Bulls from 1993-1999. "And guess what. It worked."


https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/17/michael-jordan-was-jerk-says-teammates-why-it-helped.html

But Kobe did something similar to MJ. Pretty much cut from the same cloth, but it seems like MJ was a bit harsher? But maybe it's not as publicized?

Shaq yelled at his teammates and belittle sometimes, to get them fired up. Got into a fight with Kobe. Rodman said that environment was worse than all of his previous teams if I can recall.

Kenny told stories about those Rockets team did something similar.

Even Magic yelled at his teammates, and I think the Celts mentioned how they preferred how Bird lead.

And you have Jimmy Butler now lol.

It just depends. Either or, you need a solid team to really do it. And you have to give credit to Pippen. It seemed he was a very good leader with the Bulls squad. But he even had his up and downs. Especially with the refusal to come to the game when he couldn't take the last shot. And it didn't carry over with the Rockets, but it be like that sometimes. But if you look at all the quotes, even before the last dance, lots of ppl call Pippen their favorite teammate. When MJ would belittle the teammates, Pippen would pick them back up and say, "Don't worry about that. You're okay. Don't listen to him."

There are different ways to lead. But it also depends on the personality of the team as well. Sometimes the way MJ leads won't be as effective with some other players. Barkley mentioned that he knew what teammate to yell at and get them fired up and what teammate not to. Shaq was the same way. But sometimes they just fall within that trap. Some players play better mad, some do not.

[Axe]

Comprehension. Jordan and Pippen and the Bulls completely annihilated the league. 72, 69, 67, able to remain competitive with with Jordan gone in 94, able to remain competitive with Pippen gone in 98. And 6 championships in 8 years. Lol if that ain't annihilation relative to other dynasties, I don't know what is.
And they're saying the 90s were basically a weak and watered-down era. 😒

[97 bulls]

Eh...it depends on who you talk to. He was pretty harsh on his teammates and a jerk. But they did say, "I guess it worked," as mentioned in the documentary.





https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/17/michael-jordan-was-jerk-says-teammates-why-it-helped.html

But Kobe did something similar to MJ. Pretty much cut from the same cloth, but it seems like MJ was a bit harsher? But maybe it's not as publicized?

Shaq yelled at his teammates and belittle sometimes, to get them fired up. Got into a fight with Kobe. Rodman said that environment was worse than all of his previous teams if I can recall.

Kenny told stories about those Rockets team did something similar.

Even Magic yelled at his teammates, and I think the Celts mentioned how they preferred how Bird lead.

And you have Jimmy Butler now lol.

It just depends. Either or, you need a solid team to really do it. And you have to give credit to Pippen. It seemed he was a very good leader with the Bulls squad. But he even had his up and downs. Especially with the refusal to come to the game when he couldn't take the last shot. And it didn't carry over with the Rockets, but it be like that sometimes. But if you look at all the quotes, even before the last dance, lots of ppl call Pippen their favorite teammate. When MJ would belittle the teammates, Pippen would pick them back up and say, "Don't worry about that. You're okay. Don't listen to him."

There are different ways to lead. But it also depends on the personality of the team as well. Sometimes the way MJ leads won't be as effective with some other players. Barkley mentioned that he knew what teammate to yell at and get them fired up and what teammate not to. Shaq was the same way. But sometimes they just fall within that trap. Some players play better mad, some do not.

But the funny thing is Micku, I've never really heard about how disrespectful a teammate Shaq and Kobe and Magic were. Shaq and Kobe didn't get along. Because of a power struggle. What does that say. I find it hard to believe that the players you named didn't scream at their teammates. That's a part of being a team. But for some reason, that's big point when talking about Jordan as a teammate.

What happened when Draymond Green called Kevin Durant a bitch? And said 'we don't need you'. Durant left for the Nets. Players can take criticism, but when it's gets to be too much, something has to give. Pippen smoothed that over. And that's a big reason for the Bulls success.

[1987_Lakers]

But the funny thing is Micku, I've never really heard about how disrespectful a teammate Shaq and Kobe and Magic were. Shaq and Kobe didn't get along. Because of a power struggle. What does that say. I find it hard to believe that the players you named didn't scream at their teammates. That's a part of being a team. But for some reason, that's big point when talking about Jordan as a teammate.

What happened when Draymond Green called Kevin Durant a bitch? And said 'we don't need you'. Durant left for the Nets. Players can take criticism, but when it's gets to be too much, something has to give. Pippen smoothed that over. And that's a big reason for the Bulls success.

lol, there is a bunch of stuff out there on Kobe being a douche to his teammates. And given Shaq's petty personality it wouldn't surprise me at all if he mistreated teammates, especially in his younger days.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Comprehension. Jordan and Pippen and the Bulls completely annihilated the league. 72, 69, 67, able to remain competitive with with Jordan gone in 94, able to remain competitive with Pippen gone in 98. And 6 championships in 8 years. Lol if that ain't annihilation relative to other dynasties, I don't know what is.

But here's where the comprehension come in. I said Shaq and Jordan would run roughshod over the league. But what I also said was how long would one be willing to sacrifice their personal glory for team success and watch as the other gets all the credit before he wants to break off and do his own thing like Kobe did. No other dynasty can say that their two best players shared their primes together and stay together as long as Jordan and Pippen.

You're repeating the same talking points, and they're still moot. Chicago would dominate even more with Shaq. Remove Pippen's poor postseason shooting, and the second 3-peat Bulls would look unbeatable against Utah and Indiana.

Pippen was always envious, but also passive aggressive and could never stand up to Mike. What exposed him are his actions. The truth is, he wasn't a leader. Scottie Pippen was always about Scottie Pippen, and did whatever it took to get out of Jordan's shadow. Whatever his skillset allowed anyway.

Shaq and Jordan would've bumped heads, sure. Both have sky high egos. But they would have been so dominate it wouldn't matter. Shaq has ALWAYS respected Mike and views him as an elder statesman. An original. The two would've lasted longer than Kobe/Shaq and unlike Pippen, Shaq could command double and triple teams. Imagine freeing up Michael Jordan for easier baskets. Yeah...frightening.


And let's be honest, by all accounts, Jordan was a terrible teammate. He all but admitted it. It takes a special type of player to be good enough to do what Pippen did in Jordan's hiatus and be willing to take a backseat his whole career. And be willing to stand beside him while he behaved the way he did.

MJ led the Bulls to 6 rings. You don't do that being a 'terrible' teammate. :lol Mike led with Pippen literally jealous of his success throughout. If anything, it speaks to great leadership.

That's the honest take here. Not some lip service, revisionist history bulljive.

[Hey Yo]

No chance MJ would share the scoring with Shaq. He'd expect him to strictly concentrate on rebounding and defense, just as Rodman's role was.

[3ba11]

Based on what I’ve heard from Horace and Kerr (on top of Pippen obviously), I don’t think Jordan’s style in practice necessarily made them better. At least when it came to his temper/competitiveness.

The Last Dance made it seem like Jordan was a god in practice, but Horace was basically saying how people would buck back at Jordan all the time and not out of being angry so much as just wanting him to shut the fvck up, but knuckle if it’s there.

He knocked at Kerr, which is why he felt bad because Kerr apparently isn’t the only one who let him have it like that.


Pippen averaged 8 ppg in 1988, which cost the Bulls the title - ditto Horace

It wasn't much better in 89' or 90'

These guys were bums that MJ had to curse, scrape, prod, and cajole into being just solid producers - he was never able to get them to juggernaut, elite-producing status... because again, they started out as bums - they weren't good right away like Worthy or Nique', who Jordan would never need to lose his temper with.. Heck, in Worthy's first Playoffs, he averaged 22 on 64% in the Finals.

[97 bulls]

lol, there is a bunch of stuff out there on Kobe being a douche to his teammates. And given Shaq's petty personality it wouldn't surprise me at all if he mistreated teammates, especially in his younger days.

Really? Show me. Again, not saying Kobe and others weren't confrontational. But show me where the players mentioned had behaviors anywhere near Jordan.

[Hey Yo]

Smush Parker:

"He told me one day at practice – I tried to talk to him (Kobe) outside of basketball, about football. And he looked at me in practice and was dead serious and said, ‘You can’t talk to me. You need more accolades under your belt before you come talk to me.'"

http://www.thepostgame.com/blog/dish/201406/smush-parker-says-kobe-bryant-said-not-talk-him-during-practice

[3ba11]

Really? Show me. Again, not saying Kobe and others weren't confrontational. But show me where the players mentioned had behaviors anywhere near Jordan.


Show me where others had to raise 8 ppg and 14 ppg bums like rookie and sophomore Pippen/Horace

I'll wait

The reality is that only MJ had to actually make teammates better to win

And that was the narrative at the time - the term "elevate teammates" began with MJ, where people used the term to describe why he wasn't on Bird or Magic's level.. People wanted MJ to elevate bums like rookie Pippen into stars like Worthy, Kareem, Parish or DJ.... So the goat did it

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen averaged 8 ppg in 1988, which cost the Bulls the title - ditto Horace

It wasn't much better in 89' or 90'

These guys were bums that MJ had to curse, scrape, prod, and cajole into being just solid producers - he was never able to get them to juggernaut, elite-producing status... because again, they started out as bums - they weren't good right away like Worthy or Nique', who Jordan would never need to lose his temper with.. Heck, in Worthy's first Playoffs, he averaged 22 on 64% in the Finals.

It’s so weird how you just forget how basketball, and life, works sometimes.

[3ba11]

It’s so weird how you just forget how basketball, and life, works sometimes.


Show me where others had to raise 8 ppg and 14 ppg bums like rookie and sophomore Pippen/Horace

I'll wait

The reality is that only MJ had to actually make teammates better to win, while everyone else had ready-made stars that were great right away.. Heck, Worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals and it was his first playoffs!!

The term "elevate teammates" infact began with MJ, where people used the term to describe why he wasn't on Bird or Magic's level.. People wanted MJ to elevate bums like rookie Pippen into stars like Worthy, Kareem, Parish or DJ.... So the goat did it

[ShawkFactory]

Are you really trying to say that people don’t sometimes score less as rookies/sophomores than they do when they’re in their primes?

And if so, are you saying Jordan is the only one who is able to have teammates improve as they gain experience?

[fsvr54]

People who hate on Jordan are just flat out weird.

[3ba11]

Are you really trying to say that people don’t sometimes score less as rookies/sophomores than they do when they’re in their primes?

And if so, are you saying Jordan is the only one who is able to have teammates improve as they gain experience?


Show me someone that won by waiting numerous years for an 8 ppg bench-warming rookie to develop to all-star-caliber?

Maybe Curry with Klay and Dray - his path is most like MJ's, except MJ won 6 chips & fmvp's without adding KD.

But aside from Curry, everyone else already had all-star teammates on their team or guys that were good right away like Worthy dominating his first playoffs with 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals.. That's just 1 example.. Penny was good right away and better than Pippen (outplayed Pippen), yet Jordan destroyed Shaq and made him leave Orlando.

If Pippen went from an 8 ppg rookie to 16/5/5 career average on another team with zero rings - he would be like Shawn Marion and no one would talk about him.... (and we know he would have zero rings because no one ever won by leading their sidekick in every series by 10-30 ppg - only MJ can carry that load, so only MJ has the ability to win with a defensive slasher at 2nd option and no 3rd scorer)

[ShawkFactory]

Show me someone that won by waiting numerous years for an 8 ppg bench-warming rookie to develop to all-star-caliber?

Maybe Curry with Klay and Dray - his path is most like MJ's, except MJ won 6 chips & fmvp's without adding KD.

But aside from Curry, everyone else already had all-star teammates on their team or guys that were good right away like Worthy dominating his first playoffs with 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals.. That's just 1 example.. Penny was good right away and better than Pippen (outplayed Pippen), yet Jordan destroyed Shaq and made him leave Orlando.

If Pippen went from an 8 ppg rookie to 16/5/5 career average on another team with zero rings - he would be like Shawn Marion and no one would talk about him.... (and we know he would have zero rings because no one ever won by leading their sidekick in every series by 10-30 ppg - only MJ can carry that load, so only MJ has the ability to win with a defensive slasher at 2nd option and no 3rd scorer)

That’s not the culture anymore. Instant gratification is the name of the game.

This applies to life in general, not just basketball.

[97 bulls]

You're repeating the same talking points, and they're still moot. Chicago would dominate even more with Shaq. Remove Pippen's poor postseason shooting, and the second 3-peat Bulls would look unbeatable against Utah and Indiana.

Pippen was always envious, but also passive aggressive and could never stand up to Mike. What exposed him are his actions. The truth is, he wasn't a leader. Scottie Pippen was always about Scottie Pippen, and did whatever it took to get out of Jordan's shadow. Whatever his skillset allowed anyway.

Shaq and Jordan would've bumped heads, sure. Both have sky high egos. But they would have been so dominate it wouldn't matter. Shaq has ALWAYS respected Mike and views him as an elder statesman. An original. The two would've lasted longer than Kobe/Shaq and unlike Pippen, Shaq could command double and triple teams. Imagine freeing up Michael Jordan for easier baskets. Yeah...frightening.



MJ led the Bulls to 6 rings. You don't do that being a 'terrible' teammate. :lol Mike led with Pippen literally jealous of his success throughout. If anything, it speaks to great leadership.

That's the honest take here. Not some lip service, revisionist history bulljive.

How much more? I don't even disagree that they wouldn't. But for how long? How do you guys miss stuff that slapping you right in the face. Why didn't Shaq take a backseat to Kobe for the sake of winning? That's my point. Pippen could've said, I don't want to play in Jordan's shadow and sat out and force the Bulls to trade him. Put the video game controller down bro. We're talking about real people with huge egos and borderline narcissistic personalities. Like I said earlier, it takes a hell of a lot more than talent to win a championship.

[3ba11]

That’s not the culture anymore. Instant gratification is the name of the game.

This applies to life in general, not just basketball.


It's a skill-deficit - young ball-handlers like Ingram, Hughes, Rose or Pippen can't develop alongside a ball-dominant producer like Lebron, Westbrook, or Harden, so all these guys eventually resorted to team-hopping, starting with Lebron - their skill restriction to ball-dominance imposed spot-up roles that stalled young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping).. Lebron had plenty of Pippen's but lacks the elite jumpshooting skill to produce sufficiently off-ball, which would allow everyone to achieve close to their maximum production.

[97 bulls]

Show me where others had to raise 8 ppg and 14 ppg bums like rookie and sophomore Pippen/Horace

I'll wait

The reality is that only MJ had to actually make teammates better to win

And that was the narrative at the time - the term "elevate teammates" began with MJ, where people used the term to describe why he wasn't on Bird or Magic's level.. People wanted MJ to elevate bums like rookie Pippen into stars like Worthy, Kareem, Parish or DJ.... So the goat did it
I keep telling you the circumstances of Pippen's rookie year and you just want to stay ignorant.

Pippen was playing with a herniated disk almost his whole rookie year. And he came in playing behind Brad Sellers who was a lottery pick the previous year.

Pippen missed the first 10 games of his second season because he had back surgery in the off season. And you're calling him a bum for that? Come on bro.

[3ba11]

I keep telling you the circumstances of Pippen's rookie year and you just want to stay ignorant.

Pippen was playing with a herniated disk almost his whole rookie year. And he came in playing behind Brad Sellers who was a lottery pick the previous year.

Pippen missed the first 10 games of his second season because he had back surgery in the off season. And you're calling him a bum for that? Come on bro.


Pippen was a bum for getting outplayed and losing the 90' ECF, and nearly derailing titles in the 98' ECF or 92' ECF - MJ rarely needed 7 games, but he needed 7 in all of those series because Pippen was destroyed so badly..

Pippen was the kind of guy to average 15 on 33% and let a rebounder like Kevin Willis outplay him in the 93' 1st Round, or he let Majerle have better gamescore in those Finals - Pippen's 21 on 43% was arguably outplayed by 16 on 57% from rookie 4th option Dumas, who won Game 5.

^^^ and that was Pippen's prime..

He averaged 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs and 11 ppg from 99-03'..

So guys like Giannis have the 2021 Finals, while Dirk has 2011 and Wade has 2006 and 2011 - so everyone has top 75 performance to support their ranking, EXCEPT PIPPEN

[97 bulls]

Pippen was a bum for getting outplayed and losing the 90' ECF, and nearly derailing titles in the 98' ECF or 92' ECF - MJ rarely needed 7 games, but he needed 7 in all of those series because Pippen was destroyed so badly..

Pippen was the kind of guy to average 15 on 33% and let a rebounder like Kevin Willis outplay him in the 93' 1st Round, or he let Majerle have better gamescore in those Finals - Pippen's 21 on 43% was arguably outplayed by 16 on 57% from rookie 4th option Dumas, who won Game 5.

^^^ and that was Pippen's prime..

He averaged 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs and 11 ppg from 99-03'..

So guys like Giannis has the 2021 Finals, while Dirk has 2011 and Wade has 2006 and 2011 - so everyone has top 75 performance to support their ranking, EXCEPT PIPPEN

This is why I hate messaging. You called Pippen a bum for averaging 8 ppg in his rookie season. I told you his circumstances were he was playing with a bad back. And behind the lottery pick of the previous year in Brad Sellers. So now you want to run away from that and not acknowledge you were wrong.

Pippen was playing on a sprained ankle in the 92 ECSF. He had a great 92 ECF vs the Cavs where he averaged 20/11/6/2/2 and shot 47%.

Again, most of these instances in which you call him a bum, he's playing hurt. Not to mention Pippen wasn't a stats guy. He was about wins. That's why he was so successful. Even more successful without Jordan than Jordan was with Pippen.

[3ba11]

This is why I hate messaging. You called Pippen a bum for averaging 8 ppg in his rookie season. I told you his circumstances were he was playing with a bad back. And behind the lottery pick of the previous year in Brad Sellers. So now you want to run away from that and not acknowledge you were wrong.

Pippen was playing on a sprained ankle in the 92 ECSF. He had a great 92 ECF vs the Cavs where he averaged 20/11/6/2/2 and shot 47%.

Again, most of these instances in which you call him a bum, he's playing hurt. Not to mention Pippen wasn't a stats guy. He was about wins. That's why he was so successful. Even more successful without Jordan than Jordan was with Pippen.


guys like Giannis have the 2021 Finals, while Dirk has 2011 and Wade has the 2006 or 2011 runs - so everyone has top 75 performance to support their ranking, EXCEPT PIPPEN

Where's Pippen's top 75 performance that justifies him being viewed as that kind of player?... Or is it just ring count that fueled media awards and all-time ranking?.. is it performance or ring count?

[97 bulls]

guys like Giannis have the 2021 Finals, while Dirk has 2011 and Wade has the 2006 or 2011 runs - so everyone has top 75 performance to support their ranking, EXCEPT PIPPEN

Where's Pippen's top 75 performance that justifies him being viewed as that kind of player?... Or is it just ring count that fueled media awards and all-time ranking?.. is it performance or ring count?

What about his 1991 playoff run where he averaged 22/9/7/3/1 while shooting 50% from the field? And he led the playoffs in defensive rating when the opposing SF were Kiki Vandewhe, Charles Barkley, Mark Aguiire, and James Worthy. And he helped Jordan out by checking Magic in Game 2 of the NBA Finals. Combine his defensive performance on Magic, and the 20points he scored and that's every bit as spectacular as a 50 point game. And he (not Jordan) led the Bulls in the closout game 5 with 32 points.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How much more? I don't even disagree that they wouldn't. But for how long? How do you guys miss stuff that slapping you right in the face. Why didn't Shaq take a backseat to Kobe for the sake of winning? That's my point. Pippen could've said, I don't want to play in Jordan's shadow and sat out and force the Bulls to trade him. Put the video game controller down bro. We're talking about real people with huge egos and borderline narcissistic personalities. Like I said earlier, it takes a hell of a lot more than talent to win a championship.

Longer than Kobe and Shaq were together. The Kobe/Shaq feud was another animal and got personal later on.

Wouldn't happen with Mike, who I mentioned Shaq had a ton of respect for. Kobe never got the same attention. He was a copycat loner who 'led' with his play. Moreover, Shaq was better than Kobe whereas Mike would've established dominance. From jump. The dynamics couldn't be different. Be it with age or just plain greatness.

That's what you're not getting.

Pippen didn't have the skill or talent to be #1 over Jordan, but certainly had the ego. This is the same guy refusing to check into a game because a play wasn't drawn up for him.

Again, Pippen's ego was thru the roof. And his jealousy was that of a scorned lover.

[97 bulls]

Longer than Kobe and Shaq were together. The Kobe/Shaq feud was another animal and got personal later on.

Wouldn't happen with Mike, who I mentioned Shaq had a ton of respect for. Kobe never got the same attention. He was a copycat loner who 'led' with his play. Moreover, Shaq was better than Kobe whereas Mike would've established dominance. From jump. The dynamics couldn't be different. Be it with age or just plain greatness.

That's what you're not getting.

Pippen didn't have the skill or talent to be #1 over Jordan, but certainly had the ego. This is the same guy refusing to check into a game because a play wasn't drawn up for him.

Again, Pippen's ego was thru the roof. And his jealousy was that of a scorned lover.

Bro. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? Shaq respects MJ for what MJ had accomplished. But in a scenario similar to Jordan and Pippen? Or Shaq and Kobe? Where one player is already established when the other joins the team? I just don't see that happening based on actual evidence. Shaq and Kobe, and Jordans huge ego.

And even if it did, then the player that takes the backseat isn't gonna be as highly regarded

If Pippens ego was through the roof as you say, he would've done what many other players did. Demand a trade.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bro. Why is this so hard for you to comprehend? Shaq respects MJ for what MJ had accomplished. But in a scenario similar to Jordan and Pippen? Or Shaq and Kobe? Where one player is already established when the other joins the team? I just don't see that happening based on actual evidence. Shaq and Kobe, and Jordans huge ego.

And even if it did, then the player that takes the backseat isn't gonna be as highly regarded

If Pippens ego was through the roof as you say, he would've done what many other players did. Demand a trade.

You're not reading posts at this point. Just repeating the same tripe I debunked earlier.

Had Shaq joined Jordan, I don't see how they wouldn't stay longer together than Kobe/Shaq. Knowing their in-game psychology, age and status, I'm not seeing a hyothetical more accurate. Shaq not only respected Jordan, but Jordan was also one of his favorite players growing up.

Nobody is saying they would be 100% peachy, and never bump heads. :oldlol: With PJax, though, I believe the positives simply outweigh the negative.

Mike is the one dude Shaq would listen to and be motivated by. Shaq could legitimately accept that Jordan was better than him. Something most basketball fans already do.

And yeah, Pippen's ego was absolutely ridiculous. Not checking into a game cuz you couldn't take the last shot? Come back to reality, 97.

[97 bulls]

You're not reading posts at this point. Just repeating the same tripe I debunked earlier.

Had Shaq joined Jordan, I don't see how they wouldn't stay longer together than Kobe/Shaq. Knowing their in-game psychology, age and status, I'm not seeing a hyothetical more accurate. Shaq not only respected Jordan, but Jordan was also one of his favorite players growing up.

Nobody is saying they would be 100% peachy, and never bump heads. :oldlol: With PJax, though, I believe the positives simply outweigh the negative.

Mike is the one dude Shaq would listen to and be motivated by. Shaq could legitimately accept that Jordan was better than him. Something most basketball fans already do.

And yeah, Pippen's ego was absolutely ridiculous. Not checking into a game cuz you couldn't take the last shot? Come back to reality, 97.

You didn't debunk anything Kaniva. You keep conflating scenarios. Stay with me here. We're comparing Jordan and Pippens situation to others. Jordan and Pippen were close in age. But Jordan was obviously established and was there first. So you have to apply the same concept to Jordan and Shaq or Shaq and Jordan. Now here's where you mess up. You stated that Shaq respected MJ when he (Shaq) was a kid. I believe Shaq is roughly 10 years younger than MJ. So that makes sense. But that wasn't the same scenario that Jordan and Pippen were in seeing as how they're only a couple years apart in age. Jordan had been in the league 8 years before Shaq. Jordan was working on his 3rd Championship, had multiple MVPs, DPOY etc. Of course Shaq respected MJ lol. But again that's not the Scenario. It has to be a scenario similar to Pippen and Jordan. Where one has been in the league a couple years before the other arrives. I don't see why Shaq would hold MJ in such a high regard since Jordan hadn't accomplished much yet. You're trying to put early 2000s Shaq and early 90s MJ together. When both were at their apex and established. There has to be a progression. If they both join forces, something has to give. I just don't see Shaq scoring at the rate he did because of MJ. And he's probably not winning any MVPs or Finals MVPs. Because if he does (and here's the rub) then that takes away from Jordan's accolades. And as I said previously, them being together would make them dominant, but ones legacy would not be looked at in the same way if they decided to stay together as long as Jordan and Pippen did.

And the same holds true if it's flipped and Jordan joins Shaqs team. I mean we saw that with Shaq and Kobe. Shaq did not want to share the spotlight with Kobe. Hell there were rumors that he didn't like the hype Penny Hardaway was getting. And that was one of the reasons he left Orlando.


And yeah, Pippen's ego was absolutely ridiculous. Not checking into a game cuz you couldn't take the last shot? Come back to reality, 97
Why do you keep bringing this up? Jordan wasn't even on the team lol. Pippen has never said he was mad because Jordan always got the last shot. He understood because it's Jordan. But he felt he earned the right (which he did) to have the opportunity to be the hero and win the game. Jordan did something very similar when he stole the ball from Kukoc when it was clear that Jackson drew up the play for Toni in game 5 of the 98 Finals.

Again, I'm basing my assessment on what actually happened and what's reasonable.

[Micku]

But the funny thing is Micku, I've never really heard about how disrespectful a teammate Shaq and Kobe and Magic were. Shaq and Kobe didn't get along. Because of a power struggle. What does that say. I find it hard to believe that the players you named didn't scream at their teammates. That's a part of being a team. But for some reason, that's big point when talking about Jordan as a teammate.

What happened when Draymond Green called Kevin Durant a bitch? And said 'we don't need you'. Durant left for the Nets. Players can take criticism, but when it's gets to be too much, something has to give. Pippen smoothed that over. And that's a big reason for the Bulls success.

Well with Magic, he was more harsh than Bird was. But Kobe, MJ and Shaq were likely harsher. I remember a story where Magic throw the ball at his teammate head sometime in the beginning of the career on purpose or something. They got into it, but they were fine on the court.

With Kobe, it was known he was a jerk to his teammates. But only because if he doesn't see the "work ethic". He admitted it too a bunch of times.
https://www.sportscasting.com/kobe-bryant-ruthlessly-explained-why-a-hole-with-teammates-i-dont-respect-their-work-ethic/



Phil man, some of my teammates don’t understand the work. I see dudes walk into practice 10 minutes before practice, and they leave right after….why the **** am I going to pass them the basketball. I don’t respect their work ethic. I am in here, busting my ass every day trying to perfect my craft, and these dudes don’t want to work on their game. I don’t trust them, so I’m not going to pass them the basketball. I will ride them every day, and it made perfect sense.



Lakers’ Kobe Bryant was the modern-day Michael Jordan in many aspects. His leadership style matched with that of the 6x Champion because he would never shy away from making his teammates uncomfortable during practice. A firm believer in the mamba mentality, Kobe would not allow anything below greatness to roam around him.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-basketball-news-dont-respect-their-work-ethic-los-angeles-lakers-assistant-coach-phil-handy-reveals-why-kobe-bryant-didnt-trust-his-teammates/

Shaq would get pissed off at his teammates and say shit too, but he would invite them parties afterwards. Kobe was more of a loner. MJ did go to parties and was more of a..."people" person in some aspect.

Dwight Howard mentioned how difficult Kobe was as a teammate. But Howard didn't play with younger Kobe, which was even worse.

Here you can see what Del Harris would say:


Former Los Angeles Lakers head coach Del Harris recently revealed that Kobe wasn't the best of teammates when he started his career. Kobe's desire to become the best player of all time often made him go mad at his teammates, losing patience with them.

Harris said Kobe's priority was himself. They were together for three years and he witnessed how the young Mamba approached the game and his teammates, admitting he later would improve his attitude and become a leader and a mentor for several players.


https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/ex-lakers-coach-kobe-bryant-wasnt-the-best-teammate-early-in-his-career

And this is like 18-20 year old Kobe. Shaq didn't like it cuz:
1. Shaq's the man. The alpha
2. Kobe is a young kid

Kobe would get into it with a bunch of guys. How disrespectful did he get? I dunno. The Lakers did a good job at keeping all hush hush. He got into it with Jeremy Lin too and he mentioned a story about how he stood up for himself in a podcast. He said that if you don't stand up for yourself, Kobe wouldn't respect you. Very similar to MJ. You even see Shaq just giggle whenever they talk about on Inside of the NBA when they mention the practices with Kobe, but he wouldn't reveal the details. But he was definitely more selfish than MJ and it showed on the court. Phil Jackson even tried to invite MJ to teach him about the importance of team play. MJ would do a quick 3 dribbles to attack or score or whatever and he would play within the system. Kobe didn't really do that as often. And when MJ came to Kobe, Kobe was all like, "I can beat you one on one."

But it seemed he was a modern MJ for sure. There is probably a lot of that going on. But they won anyway. And again, Shaq was similar. There are other dudes who were tho.

[97 bulls]

Well with Magic, he was more harsh than Bird was. But Kobe, MJ and Shaq were likely harsher. I remember a story where Magic throw the ball at his teammate head sometime in the beginning of the career on purpose or something. They got into it, but they were fine on the court.

With Kobe, it was known he was a jerk to his teammates. But only because if he doesn't see the "work ethic". He admitted it too a bunch of times.
https://www.sportscasting.com/kobe-bryant-ruthlessly-explained-why-a-hole-with-teammates-i-dont-respect-their-work-ethic/





https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-basketball-news-dont-respect-their-work-ethic-los-angeles-lakers-assistant-coach-phil-handy-reveals-why-kobe-bryant-didnt-trust-his-teammates/

Shaq would get pissed off at his teammates and say shit too, but he would invite them parties afterwards. Kobe was more of a loner. MJ did go to parties and was more of a..."people" person in some aspect.

Dwight Howard mentioned how difficult Kobe was as a teammate. But Howard didn't play with younger Kobe, which was even worse.

Here you can see what Del Harris would say:


https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/ex-lakers-coach-kobe-bryant-wasnt-the-best-teammate-early-in-his-career

And this is like 18-20 year old Kobe. Shaq didn't like it cuz:
1. Shaq's the man. The alpha
2. Kobe is a young kid

Kobe would get into it with a bunch of guys. How disrespectful did he get? I dunno. The Lakers did a good job at keeping all hush hush. He got into it with Jeremy Lin too and he mentioned a story about how he stood up for himself in a podcast. He said that if you don't stand up for yourself, Kobe wouldn't respect you. Very similar to MJ. You even see Shaq just giggle whenever they talk about on Inside of the NBA when they mention the practices with Kobe, but he wouldn't reveal the details. But he was definitely more selfish than MJ and it showed on the court. Phil Jackson even tried to invite MJ to teach him about the importance of team play. MJ would do a quick 3 dribbles to attack or score or whatever and he would play within the system. Kobe didn't really do that as often. And when MJ came to Kobe, Kobe was all like, "I can beat you one on one."

But it seemed he was a modern MJ for sure. There is probably a lot of that going on. But they won anyway. And again, Shaq was similar. There are other dudes who were tho.

Interesting. But I stated such. I don't see anything wrong with getting mad at your teammates for giving the bare minimum. Especially when you as the teams best player is giving 110%.

Jordan berated his teammates. Telling the flight attendant to not give Grant food because he had a bad game? Punching Steve Kerr for playing hard defense? Bullying players? I'm just not hearing that from other alltime greats teammates.

And Jordan wasn't friendly with his teammates. Pippen and Rodman said they never talked outside of the game. The same for the rest of their teammates. They all lived in their own world.

[97 bulls]

Hey Micku, what's your opinion on the conversation Kuniva and I are having? Not sure if you read it

[Micku]

And with the Shaq and MJ thing?

My 2cents is that Shaq would respect MJ just because he was older and was the man initially. He would follow his lead.

The thing with Shaq and Kobe was that Kobe was the golden boy. Young kid who really wanted it and challenged everyone, but the Shaq was the leader. Shaq was always the guy on his team. He was always the best player.

It wouldn't happen like that if you paired him up with MJ. Especially in 88 when MJ went crazy. MVP, DPOY, scoring title and all that? Plus you had Oakley on the team. They would treat him like they would treat all rookies. But eventually, Shaq ego would get to him I would say.

And MJ was similar to Kobe. He would the guys to work as hard and be mentally tough. What is different from those two that MJ would go to Shaq's parties or MJ would invite Shaq to parties.

Phil Jackson even mentioned this:


"Michael was more charismatic and gregarious than Kobe," Jackson says in the book. "He loved hanging out with his teammates and security guards, playing cards, smoking cigars, and joking around."

That just wasn't Kobe. According to Jackson, he kept to himself—a self-imposed isolation that he attributed to the absence of the collegiate experience.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1641637-phil-jackson-breaks-down-michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant-comparisons

There were stories when Shaq would invite Kobe to some clubs or parties or whatever, and Kobe would not go. I read somewhere that this rubbed Shaq the wrong way, but he tried to shrug it off. MJ would've gone. This would've helped their relationship. Or since MJ was the leader and Shaq's senior, MJ would've invited Shaq.

Kobe had to learn to be a better teammate as time went on. But MJ was better than Kobe at the start, so it would've helped with Shaq. And MJ played better with the team concept than Kobe did. He let the offensive game come to him more and he was better at defense. Kobe tended to force things.



"Jordan was also more naturally inclined to let the game come to him and not overplay his hand, whereas Kobe tends to force the action, especially when the game isn't going his way," he explains. "When his shot is off, Kobe will pound away relentlessly until his luck turns. Michael, on the other hand, would shift his attention to defense or passing or setting screens to help the team win the game."


And even Phil Jackson said that MJ was a better leader.



The biggest difference between the two, though? Leadership.

Jordan's congenial persona made for a better leader. Again, he benefited from three years at North Carolina that helped expand his value, both tactically and emotionally. But he had an inherent knack for elevating the play of his teammates, no matter how tough he was on them.

Kobe, meanwhile, has found himself at the center of many internal controversies. His mindset has never been the same as Jordan's, and he's therefore been unable to have as profound an impact on his teammates.

"Though at times he could be hard on his teammates, Michael was masterful at controlling the emotional climate of the team with the power of his presence," Jackson confesses. "Kobe had a long way to go before he could make that claim. He talked a good game, but he'd yet to experience the cold truth of leadership in his bones, as Michael had."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1641637-phil-jackson-breaks-down-michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant-comparisons

Kobe got better over time as a leader, but MJ was ahead at that stand point. This would all contribute to a better relationship between MJ and Shaq I would say. MJ wouldn't force the game. He let the game come to him offensively and was more active on defense. MJ was more a ppl person and etc. Plus you had Phil Jackson at the helm.

What would break them up might not be ego necessary (although it could've been), it would've been money. I don't think Shaq would do the same thing Pippen did. Shaq's ego probably would've gotten to his head, especially when MJ left. More so than Pippen. Shaq would've done the same thing as Pippen and healed on company time obviously. But Shaq definitely would've been after the money. Granted, money back then isn't the same as money now. The team would've been a lot different. They probably would've still won and they probably would've beat Detroit in the 80s if Shaq was there, but I don't know if they would stay together as long as MJ/Pippen. He probably would've went to LA anyway because of business opportunities. He would be after the biggest paycheck.

[Micku]

Interesting. But I stated such. I don't see anything wrong with getting mad at your teammates for giving the bare minimum. Especially when you as the teams best player is giving 110%.

Jordan berated his teammates. Telling the flight attendant to not give Grant food because he had a bad game? Punching Steve Kerr for playing hard defense? Bullying players? I'm just not hearing that from other alltime greats teammates.

And Jordan wasn't friendly with his teammates. Pippen and Rodman said they never talked outside of the game. The same for the rest of their teammates. They all lived in their own world.

Kobe was similar. He didn't really talk to his teammates. Especially in the beginning. And for the fights?

Well, we only know what was said. There is probably a lot stuff lol. As the saying goes, "There are known knowns, and there are knowns unknowns. But there also unknown unknowns." We do know Kobe and Shaq got into it a few times. There are a lot of things we don't know about. Did you know Kobe slapped Samaki Walker across the face cuz he didn't have the $100 to give to Kobe from the bet that they made?

Walker was telling Phil Jackson to stop the bus so he could fight Kobe. Kobe didn't apologize till later.
https://www.sportscasting.com/kobe-bryant-once-nearly-got-into-a-fight-with-a-teammate-over-100/

In terms of in game stuff? Kobe was similar to MJ. Saying harsh things and whatever. We don't know everything, but it's there. He was pretty rowdy. Especially in the Shaq/Kobe era when Kobe younger than most of the guys there and wasn't the best player.

Kobe once made a teammate cry because he told him he needs to rethink his life purpose about playing basketball.



"I have, I have made somebody cry before. There are certain players I have made cry ... there's one teammate that was just so bad. He was so bad. It wasn't Kwame [Brown]. Kwame actually wasn't that bad. I tease Kwame a lot. It wasn't Smush [Parker]. It was a player you guys won't even remember if I said what his name was. I can't even pronounce his name. It was like some European kid. I don't know. But he was really, really bad. I said, 'You know, dude, you might want to reconsider what your life purpose is. Maybe it's not this.' I was like twenty-something. I don't know. I was really young."


https://www.businessinsider.com/kobe-bryant-made-a-teammate-cry-2015-7

He later apologized cuz it didn't come out the way he wanted to. But he did similar stuff as MJ did. But MJ was.....I dunno....more of a people person...which is weird to say. Kobe got better later.

[Micku]

But yeah. I think Pippen was the perfect compliment to MJ.

Even with Shaq, I don't think it would work out as long. As you said 97 bulls, egos would probably clash, but I'm guessing not as hard as Kobe/Shaq. Like MJ wouldn't say "Shaq gave his women hush money," to the press I think. But I think it would be money that would break them up. Shaq was always after the money.

I think he would work wonderfully with Hakeem, but post religion when he became Muslim. His faith helped him a lot. Before, he was like MJ I think. Probably worse? I think he was super quick to snap and super competitive. I dunno. I gott'a read up on it again. But then again, him and MJ would respect the hell outta of each other, but it could've been hell for the other teammates and the league. lol! But they were used to it I think. Hakeem learned how to pass better later tho.

KG would've been a perfect compliment tho. He was pretty loyal. But the dude was crazy, haha. But the defense would've been more intense.

Tim Duncan would've been cool as well in terms of in game. But their personalities does not mesh well. I don't know how it would go. Similar to Pippen, they would probably not be friends off the court. That's okay tho. But Phil Jackson would love Duncan.

Wilt and MJ would not work at all I assume...but who knows.

Bill Russell and MJ would've.

There are a lot of fun combinations. But MJ/Pippen done wonders. You could probably argue that with another star, they could probably win in the 80s maybe. Get over the hump with the Pistons. They wouldn't triple team MJ anymore. But MJ/Pippen is pretty much the gold standard of the modern nba.

[97 bulls]

Kobe was similar. He didn't really talk to his teammates. Especially in the beginning. And for the fights?

Well, we only know what was said. There is probably a lot stuff lol. As the saying goes, "There are known knowns, and there are knowns unknowns. But there also unknown unknowns." We do know Kobe and Shaq got into it a few times. There are a lot of things we don't know about. Did you know Kobe slapped Samaki Walker across the face cuz he didn't have the $100 to give to Kobe from the bet that they made?

Walker was telling Phil Jackson to stop the bus so he could fight Kobe. Kobe didn't apologize till later.
https://www.sportscasting.com/kobe-bryant-once-nearly-got-into-a-fight-with-a-teammate-over-100/

In terms of in game stuff? Kobe was similar to MJ. Saying harsh things and whatever. We don't know everything, but it's there. He was pretty rowdy. Especially in the Shaq/Kobe era when Kobe younger than most of the guys there and wasn't the best player.

Kobe once made a teammate cry because he told him he needs to rethink his life purpose about playing basketball.



https://www.businessinsider.com/kobe-bryant-made-a-teammate-cry-2015-7

He later apologized cuz it didn't come out the way he wanted to. But he did similar stuff as MJ did. But MJ was.....I dunno....more of a people person...which is weird to say. Kobe got better later.

Slapping a guy for not giving you the money he owes you is wrong, but not a bad teammate in my opinion. I don't believe Bryant made a teammate cry because he told him that basketball wasn't for him lol. That's one of those silly Paul Bunyan type tales like the one where Jordan supposedly ruined Mugsey Bouges career because he called him a midget. Or the one about how Wilt Chamberlain stopped to take a piss on the side of a road and a mountain lion attacked him and he threw it back into the bushes. Or that he dunked a ball so hard that the ball broke Red Kerrs foot.

[97 bulls]

And with the Shaq and MJ thing?

My 2cents is that Shaq would respect MJ just because he was older and was the man initially. He would follow his lead.

The thing with Shaq and Kobe was that Kobe was the golden boy. Young kid who really wanted it and challenged everyone, but the Shaq was the leader. Shaq was always the guy on his team. He was always the best player.

It wouldn't happen like that if you paired him up with MJ. Especially in 88 when MJ went crazy. MVP, DPOY, scoring title and all that? Plus you had Oakley on the team. They would treat him like they would treat all rookies. But eventually, Shaq ego would get to him I would say.

And MJ was similar to Kobe. He would the guys to work as hard and be mentally tough. What is different from those two that MJ would go to Shaq's parties or MJ would invite Shaq to parties.

Phil Jackson even mentioned this:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1641637-phil-jackson-breaks-down-michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant-comparisons

There were stories when Shaq would invite Kobe to some clubs or parties or whatever, and Kobe would not go. I read somewhere that this rubbed Shaq the wrong way, but he tried to shrug it off. MJ would've gone. This would've helped their relationship. Or since MJ was the leader and Shaq's senior, MJ would've invited Shaq.

Kobe had to learn to be a better teammate as time went on. But MJ was better than Kobe at the start, so it would've helped with Shaq. And MJ played better with the team concept than Kobe did. He let the offensive game come to him more and he was better at defense. Kobe tended to force things.



And even Phil Jackson said that MJ was a better leader.


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1641637-phil-jackson-breaks-down-michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant-comparisons

Kobe got better over time as a leader, but MJ was ahead at that stand point. This would all contribute to a better relationship between MJ and Shaq I would say. MJ wouldn't force the game. He let the game come to him offensively and was more active on defense. MJ was more a ppl person and etc. Plus you had Phil Jackson at the helm.

What would break them up might not be ego necessary (although it could've been), it would've been money. I don't think Shaq would do the same thing Pippen did. Shaq's ego probably would've gotten to his head, especially when MJ left. More so than Pippen. Shaq would've done the same thing as Pippen and healed on company time obviously. But Shaq definitely would've been after the money. Granted, money back then isn't the same as money now. The team would've been a lot different. They probably would've still won and they probably would've beat Detroit in the 80s if Shaq was there, but I don't know if they would stay together as long as MJ/Pippen. He probably would've went to LA anyway because of business opportunities. He would be after the biggest paycheck.

Again, I don't know much of that is true. I remember Kobe saying he didn't fo to clubs with teammates because he was too young to get in the club.

Steve Kerr, Jud Buechler, and Bills Wennington said they didn't have a relationship with Jordan and Pippen outside of the court. Pippen, Grant, and Rodman stated the same thing. So somebody's lying lol

[97 bulls]

But yeah. I think Pippen was the perfect compliment to MJ.

Even with Shaq, I don't think it would work out as long. As you said 97 bulls, egos would probably clash, but I'm guessing not as hard as Kobe/Shaq. Like MJ wouldn't say "Shaq gave his women hush money," to the press I think. But I think it would be money that would break them up. Shaq was always after the money.

I think he would work wonderfully with Hakeem, but post religion when he became Muslim. His faith helped him a lot. Before, he was like MJ I think. Probably worse? I think he was super quick to snap and super competitive. I dunno. I gott'a read up on it again. But then again, him and MJ would respect the hell outta of each other, but it could've been hell for the other teammates and the league. lol! But they were used to it I think. Hakeem learned how to pass better later tho.

KG would've been a perfect compliment tho. He was pretty loyal. But the dude was crazy, haha. But the defense would've been more intense.

Tim Duncan would've been cool as well in terms of in game. But their personalities does not mesh well. I don't know how it would go. Similar to Pippen, they would probably not be friends off the court. That's okay tho. But Phil Jackson would love Duncan.

Wilt and MJ would not work at all I assume...but who knows.

Bill Russell and MJ would've.

There are a lot of fun combinations. But MJ/Pippen done wonders. You could probably argue that with another star, they could probably win in the 80s maybe. Get over the hump with the Pistons. They wouldn't triple team MJ anymore. But MJ/Pippen is pretty much the gold standard of the modern nba.

There's a lot of guys that I believe could've won with MJ. But how long? And at what cost? Kobe would've never been looked at as the same player he is today if he didn't play outside of Shaqs shadow. Hell, I'd feel similar to many about Pippen if he didn't do what he did in 94 and 95. Most felt that if Jordan left the Bulls, they stink to the highest of the heavens. Like Draymond Green when he was asked to keep the Warriors afloat.

If anything, I think Pippen actually regrets staying and playing alongside MJ for so long. It seems to me he'd get more respect had he left the Bulls and maybe won an MVP and DPOY, but only won 2 Championships. Which is crazy to me.

Reading Pippen's book, confirms that he was a team player. He was about winning. He wasn't in to stats.

[Bawkish]

There's a lot of guys that I believe could've won with MJ. But how long? And at what cost? Kobe would've never been looked at as the same player he is today if he didn't play outside of Shaqs shadow. Hell, I'd feel similar to many about Pippen if he didn't do what he did in 94 and 95. Most felt that if Jordan left the Bulls, they stink to the highest of the heavens. Like Draymond Green when he was asked to keep the Warriors afloat.

If anything, I think Pippen actually regrets staying and playing alongside MJ for so long. It seems to me he'd get more respect had he left the Bulls and maybe won an MVP and DPOY, but only won 2 Championships. Which is crazy to me.

Reading Pippen's book, confirms that he was a team player. He was about winning. He wasn't in to stats.

Dude literally checks himself out of a crucial game because his coach chose a fair decision

And 20 years later he said he would do it again if given a chance to relive it while calling Phil Jackson a racist for doing so

What a team player he was

[Micku]

Again, I don't know much of that is true. I remember Kobe saying he didn't fo to clubs with teammates because he was too young to get in the club.

Steve Kerr, Jud Buechler, and Bills Wennington said they didn't have a relationship with Jordan and Pippen outside of the court. Pippen, Grant, and Rodman stated the same thing. So somebody's lying lol

Yeah, that's true. Kobe said he didn't go to clubs cuz he was too young. But as a nba player, you could get around that. lol! Not to say he should. But he was loner pretty much he was younger.

And with MJ, it was probably more of a prospective thing with Phil Jackson part rather than lying. MJ would invite guys to dinner, play cards and such. There were some articles that mentioned that and you could see it on The Last Dance documentary and other documentaries about MJ. They would do it on the bus or plane or whatever. But they don't go on the banana boat like LeBron and D-Wade. It seems like Kobe didn't do any of these things. It was more like go to practice and get out. And talk trash while you were if things get heated. But you don't always have to a better relationship with yo teammates to succeed. Magic and Kareem didn't really talk for years when they played together.

Kerr also mentioned that it was easier to play with Tim Duncan than it was with MJ. MJ it felt like you played for him rather than with him. But he also mentioned that he had such a intense competitive fire or whatever that it affected his opponents too.

Regardless, I just mention the whole MJ leadership thing because it seemed like Shaq and MJ would possibly get along a little better than Kobe and Shaq. MJ was older, a bit more mature, and had more experience in the leadership category. And him and Shaq would be more interactive than Kobe and Shaq were. Both were hard on their teammates tho.

[Micku]

There's a lot of guys that I believe could've won with MJ. But how long? And at what cost? Kobe would've never been looked at as the same player he is today if he didn't play outside of Shaqs shadow. Hell, I'd feel similar to many about Pippen if he didn't do what he did in 94 and 95. Most felt that if Jordan left the Bulls, they stink to the highest of the heavens. Like Draymond Green when he was asked to keep the Warriors afloat.

If anything, I think Pippen actually regrets staying and playing alongside MJ for so long. It seems to me he'd get more respect had he left the Bulls and maybe won an MVP and DPOY, but only won 2 Championships. Which is crazy to me.

Reading Pippen's book, confirms that he was a team player. He was about winning. He wasn't in to stats.

I don't know if it confirms that to the masses.

I'm sure some ppl do agree with that. I also think he is a team player to an certain extent. He might be like Tim Duncan where the stats don't really show the significance of his play on the floor.

But from the lines that I saw, from the ppl that review the book, it seems he was a bit whiny. I don't think the media or the fans of the masses would change their mind about Pippen. Ppl who think he was underrated would still say he is, ppl who think he is overrated would say he still is. And the fans in the middle, that may change and his peers, and the generation of nba players who care about the past. He said he thought MJ ruined the game of basketball too. Talking about the iso game. When MJ's game was 3 dribbles or less when it comes to attack and the defense was amazing. Players were in awe of the next generation and even the generation after that. Players idolize MJ, even now. But they are more with Kobe. Nowadays, ppl are going to idolize Curry, LeBron, KD.

But I think Pippen made a bunch of mistakes if he was trying to get ppl on his side about it.

I still got to read the whole book myself when I get the time. lol! But honestly, it seems to give out a negative impression. It doesn't really seem like he is a team player, but more jealous of the attention MJ got. Although he definitely was a team player in those championship runs. But all of them were. Including MJ, but MJ was MJ.

[97 bulls]

I don't know if it confirms that to the masses.

I'm sure some ppl do agree with that. I also think he is a team player to an certain extent. He might be like Tim Duncan where the stats don't really show the significance of his play on the floor.

But from the lines that I saw, from the ppl that review the book, it seems he was a bit whiny. I don't think the media or the fans of the masses would change their mind about Pippen. Ppl who think he was underrated would still say he is, ppl who think he is overrated would say he still is. And the fans in the middle, that may change and his peers, and the generation of nba players who care about the past. He said he thought MJ ruined the game of basketball too. Talking about the iso game. When MJ's game was 3 dribbles or less when it comes to attack and the defense was amazing. Players were in awe of the next generation and even the generation after that. Players idolize MJ, even now. But they are more with Kobe. Nowadays, ppl are going to idolize Curry, LeBron, KD.

But I think Pippen made a bunch of mistakes if he was trying to get ppl on his side about it.

I still got to read the whole book myself when I get the time. lol! But honestly, it seems to give out a negative impression. It doesn't really seem like he is a team player, but more jealous of the attention MJ got. Although he definitely was a team player in those championship runs. But all of them were. Including MJ, but MJ was MJ.

There's nothing interesting there that would make him whiney. He actually gives MJ a lot of credit. The problem is that Jordan fans have gone out of their way the demean the teammates of Mixhael Jordan. I've never seen a player be excused for so much lol. But what is Pippen saying that makes him whiney? His problem with the Last Dance was that it didn't catch the participation of Jordan's teammates. And I agree. So did Grant, Cartwright, Hodges, Harper, even Longley. I mean, why did Jordan leave out all the great moments of his teammates? Even if he felt compelled to offer his perfect of 94,m and Pippen sitting out, why not acknowledge the bad call Hue Hollins made?

What makes Pippen whiney?

[Micku]

There's nothing interesting there that would make him whiney. He actually gives MJ a lot of credit. The problem is that Jordan fans have gone out of their way the demean the teammates of Mixhael Jordan. I've never seen a player be excused for so much lol. But what is Pippen saying that makes him whiney? His problem with the Last Dance was that it didn't catch the participation of Jordan's teammates. And I agree. So did Grant, Cartwright, Hodges, Harper, even Longley. I mean, why did Jordan leave out all the great moments of his teammates? Even if he felt compelled to offer his perfect of 94,m and Pippen sitting out, why not acknowledge the bad call Hue Hollins made?

What makes Pippen whiney?

Because as much as he mentions how much of a team player he is, which I think he was with his play style, he also mentions a lot of "Is". Like I was as valuable. How come they didn't show the steal that "I" did in game 6 of the Jazz. He did say, what MJ did was nothing special but to pass it to the open man. We were always taught to do that. How come they didn't show our comeback in game 6 in 1992 without MJ? How come they didn't show the trash talk I gave to Karl Malone when I said, "The Mailman don't deliver on Sundays?"

I heard he talks about how he wasn't a starter in all-star 1990 but he was behind Bird and Barkley that year.

There are some things rather interesting. Like how he grew up and he develop the person that he was/is today. And how he treated the team like family in his own right and that everyone has a specific role and such. But there are some things that I think might not fly.

Like the Bulls in game 6 against Portland, the Bulls came back with MJ. But then MJ scored like 12 pts in those 8 and half mins. And MJ hit some clutch shots. So, it would've been back to MJ in the first place. And the whole Doug Collins thing and how they didn't play team ball. But when they did pass it to the role players, especially during the Pistons game, when they were open, it was bunch of bricks. Like they literally left them open. They didn't care as long as it wasn't MJ. MJ was getting like double to triple to four guys on him. I haven't gotten to that part yet when he talks about it, so I might eventually when I get time, so he could mention that as well.

He talked about Sam Vincent and his role was to get the ball to MJ and that's how they went on their run in 88 in their last 13 games. But I don't know if he mentioned that MJ averaged like 38.8 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 stls, 1.1 blks, on 56% shooting. Although he did mention his scoring seasons in the 80s and just being in awe of how he scored with the fastbreak and iso plays. He talked about him calling Phil was a racist was a coping mechanism.

But with his interviews, it just handled the wrong way. Like everything about this seems to be handling the wrong way judging from the reactions from everyone.

I do think he has some points, but it's not executed the best. Plus MJ is MJ. I mean....it is hard to compete with that. I do doubt Pippen will ever gets the respect he wants from the masses, media, peers, or even current generation of stars. However, he make some solid points and ppl should study his game too as well as MJ. The book seems entertaining from another prospective for sure. But to convince ppl he is just as valuable as MJ, that's not going to happen. And judging the reactions from ppl, they not going to share that view anytime soon. From what I seen, ppl think it's embarrassing.

I think what he should emphasis, more so than his own self worth to the team, is that the team was better without MJ than ppl actually think. Obviously not in the beginning cuz that team was trash, but they later they were underrated. That they were a great team than a one man show. Although MJ carried them offensively and made them one of the GOAT teams, but they were real solid without him too. But I don't know anything. This is what Pippen choice to put out there in the public. I just think it'll backfire on how ppl view him.

[Micku]

Slapping a guy for not giving you the money he owes you is wrong, but not a bad teammate in my opinion. I don't believe Bryant made a teammate cry because he told him that basketball wasn't for him lol. That's one of those silly Paul Bunyan type tales like the one where Jordan supposedly ruined Mugsey Bouges career because he called him a midget. Or the one about how Wilt Chamberlain stopped to take a piss on the side of a road and a mountain lion attacked him and he threw it back into the bushes. Or that he dunked a ball so hard that the ball broke Red Kerrs foot.

Hahah! Well, Kobe actually said it. He said he made a few players cry.

And we don't know what he said to the other players. What don't know to what extent or how hard he pushed his teammates either other than he was pretty hard. I know there are some books out there that might give you a glimpse of what happened, but I haven't read it. But what is more popular and out there are the Bulls with MJ. So we know more about them than we do about any other locker room. It happens.

But we do know that with the Spurs with Tim Duncan had no drama other than that Tony Parker thing. And we know James Harden go crazy at the strip clubs and the rockets let him do whatever he wants while he was with him.

[97 bulls]

Because as much as he mentions how much of a team player he is, which I think he was with his play style, he also mentions a lot of "Is". Like I was as valuable. How come they didn't show the steal that "I" did in game 6 of the Jazz. He did say, what MJ did was nothing special but to pass it to the open man. We were always taught to do that. How come they didn't show our comeback in game 6 in 1992 without MJ? How come they didn't show the trash talk I gave to Karl Malone when I said, "The Mailman don't deliver on Sundays?"
Lol. Bro. He said our as in team. He mentions Bobby Hanson by name and said he starts off hitting a big three. He also brings up the other players that were on the court with him He never mentioned that he also scored 12pts in the 4th and hit the go ahead basket in the clutch. And I believe he even mentioned that Jordan came back in and finished the job. But how is that whiney? And how can that possibly be selfish? Even more, why did MJ leave that out?


I heard he talks about how he wasn't a starter in all-star 1990 but he was behind Bird and Barkley that year.
Yeah I thought that was crazy. Or was it that he didn't make the Allstar team in 91? I'd have to go back and read it again.

There are some things rather interesting. Like how he grew up and he develop the person that he was/is today. And how he treated the team like family in his own right and that everyone has a specific role and such. But there are some things that I think might not fly.


Like the Bulls in game 6 against Portland, the Bulls came back with MJ. But then MJ scored like 12 pts in those 8 and half mins. And MJ hit some clutch shots. So, it would've been back to MJ in the first place. And the whole Doug Collins thing and how they didn't play team ball. But when they did pass it to the role players, especially during the Pistons game, when they were open, it was bunch of bricks. Like they literally left them open. They didn't care as long as it wasn't MJ. MJ was getting like double to triple to four guys on him. I haven't gotten to that part yet when he talks about it, so I might eventually when I get time, so he could mention that as well. Lol. Bro. That's not how basketball as a team game works. The Bulls didn't really run an offense. It was Jordan trying to get his shot off and guys watching. No spacing, no movement, no direction, guys trying to get out of Jordan's way, and while they may be "open", they're not in their comfort zone. That's pickup ball.


He talked about Sam Vincent and his role was to get the ball to MJ and that's how they went on their run in 88 in their last 13 games. But I don't know if he mentioned that MJ averaged like 38.8 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 stls, 1.1 blks, on 56% shooting.


Although he did mention his scoring seasons in the 80s and just being in awe of how he scored with the fastbreak and iso plays. He talked about him calling Phil was a racist was a coping mechanism.
This is Pippen's story. Not Jordan's. That's how it was framed in rebuttal to Jordan's teammates voicing their displeasure. See the double standard?


I do think he has some points, but it's not executed the best. Plus MJ is MJ. I mean....it is hard to compete with that. I do doubt Pippen will ever gets the respect he wants from the masses, media, peers, or even current generation of stars. However, he make some solid points and ppl should study his game too as well as MJ. The book seems entertaining from another prospective for sure. But to convince ppl he is just as valuable as MJ, that's not going to happen. And judging the reactions from ppl, they not going to share that view anytime soon. From what I seen, ppl think it's embarrassing.

I think what he should emphasis, more so than his own self worth to the team, is that the team was better without MJ than ppl actually think. Obviously not in the beginning cuz that team was trash, but they later they were underrated. That they were a great team than a one man show. Although MJ carried them offensively and made them one of the GOAT teams, but they were real solid without him too. But I don't know anything. This is what Pippen choice to put out there in the public. I just think it'll backfire on how ppl view him.
It didn't backfire, I'm starting to see people see his pov. What did he lie about? He was as important to Jordan with regards to the Bulls winning those 6 titles. Jordan was the best, but he was equally as important. The problem is these media guys that are voicing their displeasure with Pippen aren't willing to debate the subject.

[dankok8]

I agree with Micku that Pippen's way of doing things is going to backfire with people. The public is more likely to come away from this thinking "Geez Jordan led that headcase to so many rings..." rather than "Pippen was as important as Jordan." Neither of course is a true statement but people are more likely to come away thinking the first. This book sours people's views on Pippen IMO.

[3ba11]

I agree with Micku that Pippen's way of doing things is going to backfire with people. The public is more likely to come away from this thinking "Geez Jordan led that headcase to so many rings..." rather than "Pippen was as important as Jordan." Neither of course is a true statement but people are more likely to come away thinking the first. This book sours people's views on Pippen IMO.


the historical record shows that Pippen is a headcase:



* he never hit a big shot in 2 decades

* he claimed to have a "migraine" that tricked off the 1990 title (headcase)

* he was TARGETED by opponents like the Bad Boys or 92' Knicks as someone that could be broken (16 on 40% vs those teams)

* he sat out in 1994 (historic choke) and committed a dumb foul (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/W44XtX.gif) on Hubert Davis... and had a horrible Game 7

* he lost a 17 point lead in the 4th quarter to trick off the 2000 title

* he missed critical FT's all the time, like right before Reggie Miller's historic game-winner over Jordan in 98' that nearly won the series and tricked off the 98' title

* peers like Shaq (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siFPMd7UAfQ&t=0m47s) and Barkley (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEmjX4T18iU&t=13m42s) say Pippen was weak mentally... ditto Isiah (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEmjX4T18iU&t=14m07s)


So Jordan carried a headcase to 6 titles - MJ had to "raise" and carry a sniveling, immature, low-producing player to 6 chips.. there's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option or mental gap

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You didn't debunk anything Kaniva. You keep conflating scenarios. Stay with me here. We're comparing Jordan and Pippens situation to others. Jordan and Pippen were close in age. But Jordan was obviously established and was there first. So you have to apply the same concept to Jordan and Shaq or Shaq and Jordan. Now here's where you mess up. You stated that Shaq respected MJ when he (Shaq) was a kid. I believe Shaq is roughly 10 years younger than MJ. So that makes sense. But that wasn't the same scenario that Jordan and Pippen were in seeing as how they're only a couple years apart in age. Jordan had been in the league 8 years before Shaq. Jordan was working on his 3rd Championship, had multiple MVPs, DPOY etc. Of course Shaq respected MJ lol. But again that's not the Scenario. It has to be a scenario similar to Pippen and Jordan. Where one has been in the league a couple years before the other arrives. I don't see why Shaq would hold MJ in such a high regard since Jordan hadn't accomplished much yet. You're trying to put early 2000s Shaq and early 90s MJ together. When both were at their apex and established. There has to be a progression. If they both join forces, something has to give. I just don't see Shaq scoring at the rate he did because of MJ. And he's probably not winning any MVPs or Finals MVPs. Because if he does (and here's the rub) then that takes away from Jordan's accolades. And as I said previously, them being together would make them dominant, but ones legacy would not be looked at in the same way if they decided to stay together as long as Jordan and Pippen did.

That's the thing. It doesn't have to be the 'same' scenario.

This is all hypothetical in case you forgot.

I'm only talking about Shaq in the 90s. If you paired that guy with Jordan, say, as early as '90... Not seeing how they DONT have a run more dominant than Pippen/Jordan. Individually they would be even better than Kobe/Shaq... and without the feuding.

Under your example, Shaq is drafted in 87 and probably a different player with an altered mindset. He wouldn't have the same affinity for Mike. Apples and oranges.


Why do you keep bringing this up? Jordan wasn't even on the team lol. Pippen has never said he was mad because Jordan always got the last shot. He understood because it's Jordan. But he felt he earned the right (which he did) to have the opportunity to be the hero and win the game. Jordan did something very similar when he stole the ball from Kukoc when it was clear that Jackson drew up the play for Toni in game 5 of the 98 Finals.

Again, I'm basing my assessment on what actually happened and what's reasonable.

I don't get why you're confused.

Pretty sure we're talking about egos here. Jordan being on the team is not relevant.

Again, how is Pippen refusing to play based on anything other than ego? Whatever Pippen felt he could have done doesn't matter because in that moment, he put himself over the team. You know it. I know it. Everyone seeing it play out knows it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Good posts by Micku.

Jordan was allegedly a 'bad' teammate, but his sidekick was fueled by jealousy and plotted against him the entire time.

This makes Jordan's titles (and leadership) even more impressive. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

I agree with Micku that Pippen's way of doing things is going to backfire with people. The public is more likely to come away from this thinking "Geez Jordan led that headcase to so many rings..." rather than "Pippen was as important as Jordan." Neither of course is a true statement but people are more likely to come away thinking the first. This book sours people's views on Pippen IMO.

Because it exposes the real Jordan. But I have a question, how are you quantifying who was more important? Mind not better, but more important to the Bulls success.

[3ba11]

it exposes the real Jordan.





It lies

It says that Jordan ruined basketball by only scoring, despite Jordan averaging more assists than Pippen in the regular season, playoffs and Finals

It says that Jordan wasn't a defender and didn't guard the opposing team's best player, despite Jordan getting more DPOY votes every year and being the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller, Payton and Isiah.

So Pippen has proven to be a liar, in addition to the sniveling, immature player that Jordan had to "raise" and amazingly carried to 6 chips.. there's never been a bigger statistical OR mental gap between a 1st and 2nd option.

[Micku]

Lol. Bro. He said our as in team. He mentions Bobby Hanson by name and said he starts off hitting a big three. He also brings up the other players that were on the court with him He never mentioned that he also scored 12pts in the 4th and hit the go ahead basket in the clutch. And I believe he even mentioned that Jordan came back in and finished the job. But how is that whiney? And how can that possibly be selfish? Even more, why did MJ leave that out?


Yeah I thought that was crazy. Or was it that he didn't make the Allstar team in 91? I'd have to go back and read it again.

There are some things rather interesting. Like how he grew up and he develop the person that he was/is today. And how he treated the team like family in his own right and that everyone has a specific role and such. But there are some things that I think might not fly.

Lol. Bro. That's not how basketball as a team game works. The Bulls didn't really run an offense. It was Jordan trying to get his shot off and guys watching. No spacing, no movement, no direction, guys trying to get out of Jordan's way, and while they may be "open", they're not in their comfort zone. That's pickup ball.




Although he did mention his scoring seasons in the 80s and just being in awe of how he scored with the fastbreak and iso plays. He talked about him calling Phil was a racist was a coping mechanism.
This is Pippen's story. Not Jordan's. That's how it was framed in rebuttal to Jordan's teammates voicing their displeasure. See the double standard?


It didn't backfire, I'm starting to see people see his pov. What did he lie about? He was as important to Jordan with regards to the Bulls winning those 6 titles. Jordan was the best, but he was equally as important. The problem is these media guys that are voicing their displeasure with Pippen aren't willing to debate the subject.

The reason why it's whiny, imo, is because it comes across to say "What about me? What about my steal? What about the things that I did? Why do MJ get all the spot? Yeah, he averaged crazy numbers and hit game winners, but it wouldn't happened without my defense and contribution!" But I do think there are things that should've been in the doc. I don't know if the comeback should've been in the doc. Maybe. But that quote, "The mailman don't deliver on Sundays" should've. Definitely. Rodman defense on Shaq should've too. Luc Longley had some good games. Kukoc should've gotten more spotlight. But it is what it is.

And I don't know what type of offense was running when MJ was averaging those insane numbers under Doug Collins. But it did remind me a bit of Bron/James Harden ball. Just MJ didn't hold the ball as much as those guys and he wasn't as good as a play maker but he wasn't bad. However, the spacing was terrible back then, so it wouldn't be as effective anyway. Regardless, he did pass. There were definitely times where he missed the open dude to take the shot, but it wasn't as bad as Kobe back in the day. But those teams just couldn't buy a basket and the Pistons were sent the team at MJ. At the time, ppl criticize MJ for scoring too much or too little. But from what I saw, there were so many bricks. MJ definitely got better at playing under the team concept in the 90s for sure. He let the game come to him much better than back then in the 80s. Less is better in that instance. But it was insane how many open looks team had that they just missed. If he had better shooters around him, then I would imagine that style would be better just like Harden and LeBron. But they didn't use the 3pt shot a lot back then. So, the long range 2. Pippen especially wasn't good at that shot either till later. But it wasn't just him. It was pretty much the whole team stunk. Especially in 89 when they shouldn't even got there in the first place. It is amazing how much they improved at both ends.

And as you said, they probably weren't at their comfort zone. It wasn't their game, at least to compete with the Pistons. They improved tho of what they could do for sure by the 90s. But that's a whole essay to write about that on it's own. But Phil Jackson and Tex Winter put in the triangle, and they played much better with the team. Simultaneously, the team improved overall in what they could do.

And I get it's a Pippen story. But this Pippen story is talks about MJ a whole lot. And as you said, voicing his and teammates displeasure over the Last Dance and how he was treated and view. He wanted to be acknowledge of his accomplishments too. But I do think it'll backfire. I'm checking some youtube vids out who read the book, they think Pippen is bitter. They media does, for the most part. And I dunno if you checked out the subreddit of the Bulls? They just think it's embarrassing. And the calls that some of these podcasts and radio shows get when they talk about Pippen? Most of them think Pippen is trippin. But you really don't think it'll backfire? Cuz I see it personally that it's backfiring with a bunch of fans.

But you do have ppl who are sympathetic of Pippen and his book may enhance that. But for the most part, at least from what I seen, I don't think so. I think it's a shame cuz he tackled on some good points. And the teamball of the Bulls were amazing. Yeah ppl paid attention to MJ majority, but they were an amazing team. I don't think the book will do that any favors with the public due to Pippen interviews and some of the comments.

[97 bulls]

That's the thing. It doesn't have to be the 'same' scenario.

This is all hypothetical in case you forgot.

I'm only talking about Shaq in the 90s. If you paired that guy with Jordan, say, as early as '90... Not seeing how they DONT have a run more dominant than Pippen/Jordan. Individually they would be even better than Kobe/Shaq... and without the feuding.
Shaq and Kobe didn't have a run as dominant as Jordan and Pippen. Not sure how much more dominant a Shaq/Jordan 1-2 punch would be. Based on how much better you think Jordan is over Bryant. But that neither here nor there. Again, this is a hyothetical, but it's based on what we know from the players in question. Is Jordan gonna be OK with Shaq making rap songs, and movies instead of working on trying to win? Again, it's no secret that Shaq had an issue with the pub Penny Hardaway was getting. But he's gonna be cool with Jordans godlike publicity? And he didn't want the Lakers offense to run though Kobe to the point that he threatened to stop playing defense if he didn't get the ball. I mean you're ignoring all of these facets that were plainly there in you euphoric scenario.


Under your example, Shaq is drafted in 87 and probably a different player with an altered mindset. He wouldn't have the same affinity for Mike. Apples and oranges.
Because that was the scenario between Jordan and Pippen. You changed it and basically used hindsight. IE Jordan led his team to 6 championships, Shaq to 3 the MVPs accolades etc. It can't play out that way if they play together. Somebody is gonna have to take a backseat.



I don't get why you're confused.

Pretty sure we're talking about egos here. Jordan being on the team is not relevant.

Again, how is Pippen refusing to play based on anything other than ego? Whatever Pippen felt he could have done doesn't matter because in that moment, he put himself over the team. You know it. I know it. Everyone seeing it play out knows it.

Pippen played in the shadow of Jordan basically his whole career. Which meant he had to check his ego, at the door every night. You gonna use one moment to show he had an ego? Lol. That's insane bro.

[Micku]

It lies

It says that Jordan ruined basketball by only scoring, despite Jordan averaging more assists than Pippen in the regular season, playoffs and Finals

It says that Jordan wasn't a defender and didn't guard the opposing team's best player, despite Jordan getting more DPOY votes every year and being the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller, Payton and Isiah.

So Pippen has proven to be a liar, in addition to the sniveling, immature player that Jordan had to "raise" and amazingly carried to 6 chips.. there's never been a bigger statistical OR mental gap between a 1st and 2nd option.


Hahahah, oh yeah. He did say that. About the defensive part. That's crazy. Did he say he didn't want to guard the best player? I think that's something perhaps. But regardless, he did guard the best player of the opposing team. A lot of the time. Especially in the first peat. We got the tape and we got the stats. We even had teams that said, "Don't pass it in the area that MJ is guarding" because he was that good with his timing and help defense. Other coaches and players commented on MJ's defense. Like Pippen got the credit for guarding Magic effectively as deserved, but MJ guarded him the majority of the time in the finals and did pretty well aside from game 1. I think Pippen got fouled out in game 3 and it went back to MJ. MJ guarded him a majority of the time period whenever they played.

We have so many vids to show that MJ did guard the best player and to show he was effective in doing so. But not to say MJ didn't get cook, every players does, but he really good in that aspect. His peers talk about how good he was in defense, the coaches, even his teammates at the time and we as fans could also see it. lol! And we have the stats. What Pippen said was a big claim that I don't think will fly.

[97 bulls]

The reason why it's whiny, imo, is because it comes across to say "What about me? What about my steal? What about the things that I did? Why do MJ get all the spot? Yeah, he averaged crazy numbers and hit game winners, but it wouldn't happened without my defense and contribution!" But I do think there are things that should've been in the doc. I don't know if the comeback should've been in the doc. Maybe. But that quote, "The mailman don't deliver on Sundays" should've. Definitely. Rodman defense on Shaq should've too. Luc Longley had some good games. Kukoc should've gotten more spotlight. But it is what it is.

And I don't know what type of offense was running when MJ was averaging those insane numbers under Doug Collins. But it did remind me a bit of Bron/James Harden ball. Just MJ didn't hold the ball as much as those guys and he wasn't as good as a play maker but he wasn't bad. However, the spacing was terrible back then, so it wouldn't be as effective anyway. Regardless, he did pass. There were definitely times where he missed the open dude to take the shot, but it wasn't as bad as Kobe back in the day. But those teams just couldn't buy a basket and the Pistons were sent the team at MJ. At the time, ppl criticize MJ for scoring too much or too little. But from what I saw, there were so many bricks. MJ definitely got better at playing under the team concept in the 90s for sure. He let the game come to him much better than back then in the 80s. Less is better in that instance. But it was insane how many open looks team had that they just missed. If he had better shooters around him, then I would imagine that style would be better just like Harden and LeBron. But they didn't use the 3pt shot a lot back then. So, the long range 2. Pippen especially wasn't good at that shot either till later. But it wasn't just him. It was pretty much the whole team stunk. Especially in 89 when they shouldn't even got there in the first place. It is amazing how much they improved at both ends.

And as you said, they probably weren't at their comfort zone. It wasn't their game, at least to compete with the Pistons. They improved tho of what they could do for sure by the 90s. But that's a whole essay to write about that on it's own. But Phil Jackson and Tex Winter put in the triangle, and they played much better with the team. Simultaneously, the team improved overall in what they could do.

And I get it's a Pippen story. But this Pippen story is talks about MJ a whole lot. And as you said, voicing his and teammates displeasure over the Last Dance and how he was treated and view. He wanted to be acknowledge of his accomplishments too. But I do think it'll backfire. I'm checking some youtube vids out who read the book, they think Pippen is bitter. They media does, for the most part. And I dunno if you checked out the subreddit of the Bulls? They just think it's embarrassing. And the calls that some of these podcasts and radio shows get when they talk about Pippen? Most of them think Pippen is trippin. But you really don't think it'll backfire? Cuz I see it personally that it's backfiring with a bunch of fans.

But you do have ppl who are sympathetic of Pippen and his book may enhance that. But for the most part, at least from what I seen, I don't think so. I think it's a shame cuz he tackled on some good points. And the teamball of the Bulls were amazing. Yeah ppl paid attention to MJ majority, but they were an amazing team. I don't think the book will do that any favors with the public due to Pippen interviews and some of the comments.

So it's whiney because his teammate is taking all the credit for the work the team did? That's not whiney.I was actually appalled that Jordan opted to leave out key moments in the Bulls title runs. Why arent you?

[3ba11]

"The mailman don't deliver on Sundays" should've been in the doc.





So should the documentary have included Derrick McKey whispering to Pippen when Pippen missed 2 free throws in the 98' ECF that nearly lost that series??.. They were right before Miller's historic winner over MJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1lCjwWJ1Ds&t=7121s






Rodman defense on Shaq should've too. Luc Longley had some good games. Kukoc should've gotten more spotlight.





Rodman did spot-duty on Shaq, who still averaged almost 30 with good efficiency... No player has ever been cited in a documentary for playing spot-duty on a guy that still dominated....

EXCEPT PIPPEN ON MAGIC!!!!... Pippen has been lionized for his spot-duty, so the idea that Pippen doesn't get enough credit is preposterous - he gets far more credit than he ever deserved - the stats & facts show that.

Ultimately, the guys that dominated or hit big shots were appropriately lionized in the doc - Jordan, Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc






But the 80's Bulls couldn't buy a basket so the Pistons sent the team at MJ.. .

But from what I saw, there were so many bricks.





^^^ exactly, so Jordan was forced to take a lot of shots, yet he still shot far above the league average true shooting every year of his career, including 1987 when he averaged 37 ppg

In addition to good efficiency despite the goat volume, the goat aspect of Jordan's scoring is that it was partially off-ball and therefore assisted, which elevated teammate role and allowed the best strategy (ball movement) - so Jordan could win with high scoring and has many series-wins with high scoring.. This contrasts with ball-dominators (unassisted scoring), which reduces teamamtes to spot-up shooter and uses inferior strategy (ball-domination) - so ball-dominators can't win with high scoring against the top teams and need elite-scoring teammates to match or exceed their scoring when needed.






MJ definitely got better at playing under the team concept in the 90s for sure. He let the game come to him much better than back then in the 80s. Less is better in that instance.





Jordan appeared like less of a chucker as his teammates started to improve at basketball - there's a direct correlation with them becoming veterans that knew how to play and Jordan not needing to chuck as much.

But he never "toned it down" to win because he won every title as scoring champ and averaged 36 ppg in the 91-93' Finals and 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs - so his burden (scoring and usage) increased for him to win.






Especially in 89 when they shouldn't even got there in the first place.





If Jordan doesn't carry his low seed over the #1 SRS team with "the shot" and propel the Bulls to the 89' ECF, the Bulls would've been in rebuild mode instead of ECF veterans and a year away from starting a 3-peat - his carry-job in those playoffs was the difference between remaining a bad franchise and becoming a dynasty.. he FORCED his lottery cast to contend with those Bad Boys and not get swept or beaten by record amount.






And I dunno if you checked out the subreddit of the Bulls?





Pippen cannot show his face in Chicago ever again.. Everyone knows how much of a fraud he is and how it makes MJ the goat even more to carry such a bum.






MJ wasn't as good as a play maker as Harden or Lebron but he wasn't bad.





Lebron and Harden bring the ball up the court, so they look like superior playmakers to Jordan, who was an off-guard - but the media said MJ was better than Magic and Stockton after only 10 games at point guard in 1989 - Jordan's 30/10/10 point guard style was similar to Luka, Harden, Westbrook, or Lebron, and therefore 30 years ahead of it's time.

So anytime the Bulls needed more than 7 apg, Jordan was the only option - Jordan had numerous series with 8-11 APG.. He's actually the only player that ever averaged 10 apg without bringing the ball up and playing point guard (1991 Finals).

So no - Lebron and Harden aren't better playmakers than Jordan - they simply play the ball-dominator role more often and Jordan was on their level anytime he played that role - but he preferred the off-guard role, which was fortunate because it allowed better teammate fits and the best strategy (ball movement), which allowed the best teams (6/6).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shaq and Kobe didn't have a run as dominant as Jordan and Pippen. Not sure how much more dominant a Shaq/Jordan 1-2 punch would be. Based on how much better you think Jordan is over Bryant. But that neither here nor there. Again, this is a hyothetical, but it's based on what we know from the players in question. Is Jordan gonna be OK with Shaq making rap songs, and movies instead of working on trying to win? Again, it's no secret that Shaq had an issue with the pub Penny Hardaway was getting. But he's gonna be cool with Jordans godlike publicity? And he didn't want the Lakers offense to run though Kobe to the point that he threatened to stop playing defense if he didn't get the ball. I mean you're ignoring all of these facets that were plainly there in you euphoric scenario.

Didn't say they did, but individually Kobe/Shaq were better.

Kobe and Shaq had superior numbers together, and completed a postseason run more dominant than any of Chicago's.

Jordan would help motivate Shaq because of the respect he already had for Mike. If Rodman could listen to MJ, who was actually older than him, I don't think it would be that big of an issue. At least not to the degree of Kobe/Shaq.

Like I mentioned earlier, Mike was also more vocal than Kobe and clearly a better leader of men. For as many shots Jordan hoisted, he was also the better playmaker than Kobe and had a better understanding of the 'team' concept.

Nobody knows for sure either way, but understanding how Shaq and Jordan functioned, especially during their title reign.... I don't see a scenario where they aren't a dynasty.

With Mike, Shaq wins right away and wouldn't have an incentive to leave. Shaq could still be Hollywood like Dennis Rodman tried to be, but the difference is Shaq was tiers apart as a player, and less of a headcase. Shaq reigned it in when needed, which he would likely do with Mike.


Because that was the scenario between Jordan and Pippen. You changed it and basically used hindsight. IE Jordan led his team to 6 championships, Shaq to 3 the MVPs accolades etc. It can't play out that way if they play together. Somebody is gonna have to take a backseat.

You misread.

I've been talking about 90s Shaq, which is why I brought up his adulation and respect for Mike.

Only reason you moved it to the 80s was to fit your narrative. I mean, most of this debate is hypothetical speculative BS. Obviously. But at least my scenario doesn't wipe Shaq's game or his memory. :lol


Pippen played in the shadow of Jordan basically his whole career. Which meant he had to check his ego, at the door every night. You gonna use one moment to show he had an ego? Lol. That's insane bro.

Don't be naive. There have been countless instances Pippen's flexed his ego. You can admit in this case, Pippen was selfish...right?

Pippen also had no choice but to play under Mike's shadow. He was an inferior player. :oldlol:

[Micku]

So it's whiney because his teammate is taking all the credit for the work the team did? That's not whiney.I was actually appalled that Jordan opted to leave out key moments in the Bulls title runs. Why arent you?

I didn't say that. I'm saying he comes across as whiney for talking about himself compared to MJ. Cuz he mentioned that they credit steals to MJ instead of Pippen. That MJ ruined the game of basketball. That the Last Dance documentary didn't show his defensive top which lead to a MJ game winner or a MJ pass to a game winner, and say it wasn't special. And calling Phil a racist for not letting him take the last shot. Although he said it was coping mechanism. While he has some good points, it doesn't come across well and it seems whiny when it compares himself to MJ.

If he talked about the team, that's one thing. But he talked about himself as relation to a MJ. It was more, "I did this! I made that steal! I passed it to that guy! Where's my highlight" type of approach.

And I'm not the only one. As I said, the subreddit of the Bulls think it's embarrassing. A bunch of media heads think so, podcast ppl, youtube ppl, ppl on the forums. Even Nick Wright who is a Pippen sympathizer think Pippen needs a spokesman to help him address some points. But don't take my word for it, look the reviews from goodreads. A bunch of them say the exact same thing.



Wesley Policky
Its his version of the story. Some comes off as whiny and jealous - other parts seem genuine and grateful. I could not put it down, so the story is good. I just sit in the camp of Jordan is the greatest I've watched and Scottie was awesome as well, just not Jordan and that should be good enough. Sometimes it feels as though for Pippen, it was not.





Corban Ford
Man, this was tough. I respect Scottie Pippen's career and I feel that he definitely deserves more credit than he has received in "The Last Dance" and other Chicago Bulls-centric retrospectives but man.... resentment and bitterness permeate this entire book. Pippen spends most of it talking about how important HE was to the team and success, except for when it comes to acknowledging his shortfalls or giving more than just the passing credit to MJ.





Andre
A bit whiny at times, mostly in regards to Michael Jordan and it comes off as petty even though some of his points about Michael Jordan are indeed legitimate. Scottie is one of twelve children and so family has always been a part of his development and outlook on life.

The basketball parts of the book are the strength of this memoir.

But you also have ppl who do like it.



Georgette
I really enjoyed Scottie's book. A lot of people are dogging him for being upfront and not mincing words. He does manage to be complimentary and yet also tells it like it is. A good memoir.


https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56898224-unguarded#other_reviews

But there are a lot of reviews that are like this. This is a small sample size to reflect the masses, but you can check out what other ppl are saying about it on other sites as well. Ppl say Pippen comes across as whiny even though he do talk about some good points. So they do get enjoyment out of it even though they may agree with everything. As for what The Last Dance, sure there could've been more stuff. I personally like the stuff where they go into detail and the tactics of the game personally in a b-ball doc, but it wasn't that. They pretty much talked about everything that I already know about, except for a couple of things. But I was a bit bummed, but not appalled. One of things that I wish they were talk about is that when the Bulls lost, MJ got pissed off. He was saying how the team didn't show up that night, didn't do anything for him, and that he should never come back and such.

But regardless, I think you see a backlash with this book. I don't think he'll ever be remembered as important as MJ. It isn't backed up by the stats for the statheads for sure, majority of the fans or the media who saw'em don't say that, and he isn't backed up by the current gen of stars. But maybe for his teammates of the Bulls. And this book and the interviews won't help his case for the masses I think.

[bison]

How many guys did Jordan ‘get on’? That Bulls locker room had to have been a sticky mess in the 90s. No wonder pippin is mad.

[outofstomach]

Good posts by Micku.

Jordan was allegedly a 'bad' teammate, but his sidekick was fueled by jealousy and plotted against him the entire time.

This makes Jordan's titles (and leadership) even more impressive. :oldlol::lol

[outofstomach]

So it's whiney because his teammate is taking all the credit for the work the team did? That's not whiney.I was actually appalled that Jordan opted to leave out key moments in the Bulls title runs. Why arent you?
you are such a ****ing loser like you really are :lol