My top 10 (supercedes all previous rankings - for reference purposes going forward)

[3ba11]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Bird
4. Russell
5. Curry
6. Dirk
7. Duncan
8. Kawhi
9. Hakeem
10. Giannis


CRITERIA

1. No one that planned their destination is allowed - no one that learned how to team-hop - only guys that learned how to WIN (organic)

2. Guys that won without equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (no 1b's) are highly-valued in the rankings, since that represents 1-man team defensive coverage, aka carry-jobs

3. No 1-dimensional centers or ball-dominators, since they need super-team help and have weaker team ceilings/Finals records (Russell would be a PF in most eras, while Hakeem was all-world skill and could play any position like Giannis)

[SATAN]

What's some new movies to check out?

[Axe]

Both rockstar and blizzard make good games but i choose the former because they have more porn content in their games. What about you fellas.

[SouBeachTalents]

Top 5 movies of the 90’s, I’d prob go

GoodFellas
Pulp Fiction
Reservoir Dogs
Fargo
The Matrix

HM: Casino, American History X

[SATAN]

http://www.todayifoundout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/TIFO-Quick-Fact-625.jpg

[beasted]

Your top 10, not an objective or rational, or fact based top 10. Got it.

Any top 10 that doesn't have LeBron, Magic nor Kareem might as well just call it a "my favorite players" list because it's too biased.

[3ba11]

Your top 10, not an objective or rational, or fact based top 10. Got it.

Any top 10 that doesn't have LeBron, Magic nor Kareem might as well just call it a "my favorite players" list because it's too biased.


^^^ check the "criteria" section of the OP - extremely rational - guys that don't know how to win (organic) and guys that need tons of help can't be in the top 10

you can have 1000 teams with ball-dominating team-hoppers and I'll win more rings with my assassin scorers that can carry teams (don't need 1b's) and win with what they have (win organically)

[Axe]

Pepsi over coke because i love how it tastes

[SATAN]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/ba1742fd89cbb4e57c3b61e76ba81a4c/tumblr_n5gzz8DYb91rhavdko2_500.gif
https://64.media.tumblr.com/826f4d27f6ce4c377e5ffa256c06dd3a/tumblr_o1x8kuXr7a1v0ckqgo1_500.gif

[TheCorporation]

Top 10 list is already made

https://i.postimg.cc/pXk5VjWL/0p0p0p00lololi8776hbbbjt.jpg

[SATAN]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/46/5d/91465da54cfb2b753913253709a6d6ce.gif

[GimmeThat]

OP, which side of your family past away first in order to cause such a huge turnaround

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Damn good list. I think kawhi will be in kobes spot after he wins a title or two with clippers.

Kawhi and curry are the 2010/2020 version of bird and magic, one of them makes the finals every season from 2013-2019 and they will be the main rivalry in the west for the next 5+ years on top of that.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Also the the best regular season teams in the last 20 years were both led by kawhi and curry in 2016

Kawhi > bird

Curry > magic

[2much_knowledge]

Top 10 list is already made

https://i.postimg.cc/pXk5VjWL/0p0p0p00lololi8776hbbbjt.jpg

Tons of extra games = not impressive

[000]

curry top 5? ok i like this guy now.

[ImKobe]

Solid list, OP. 5 stars :applause: .

[ShawkFactory]

Top 5 movies of the 90’s, I’d prob go

GoodFellas
Pulp Fiction
Reservoir Dogs
Fargo
The Matrix

HM: Casino, American History X

LA Confidential is up there.

[Axe]

curry top 5? ok i like this guy now.
Lame :lol

[000]

Lame :lol

:rolleyes:

[Axe]

:rolleyes:
Btw, op made this thread half a year ago.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493318-Curry-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-history

[000]

Btw, op made this thread half a year ago.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493318-Curry-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-history
mustve smartened up

[Axe]

mustve smartened up
Yep op is a fraud.

[j3lademaster]

Top 5 movies of the 90’s, I’d prob go

GoodFellas
Pulp Fiction
Reservoir Dogs
Fargo
The Matrix

HM: Casino, American History XTop 90's movies list that doesn't include Forrest Gump. Must be a troll.

[j3lademaster]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Bird
4. Russell
5. Curry
6. Dirk
7. Duncan
8. Kawhi
9. Hakeem
10. Giannis


CRITERIA

1. No one that planned their destination is allowed - no one that learned how to team-hop - only guys that learned how to WIN (organic)

2. Guys that won without equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (no 1b's) are highly-valued in the rankings, since that represents 1-man team defensive coverage, aka carry-jobs

3. No 1-dimensional centers or ball-dominators, since they need super-team help and have weaker team ceilings/Finals records (Russell would be a PF in most eras, while Hakeem was all-world skill and could play any position like Giannis)Then why is Bill Russell on there? Wasn't he like 2nd or 3rd option on his own teams? And where's Shaq? Literally no one in NBA history demands more defensive attention than he does(except maybe Curry).

[ShawkFactory]

It actually is funny that OP has been called out on so much bullshit over the last year or so that he somehow now has a criteria that puts Curry in the top 5 for him.

[ArbitraryWater]

Your top 10, not an objective or rational, or fact based top 10. Got it.

Any top 10 that doesn't have LeBron, Magic nor Kareem might as well just call it a "my favorite players" list because it's too biased.

why the **** did you take the bait

[j3lademaster]

It actually is funny that OP has been called out on so much bullshit over the last year or so that he somehow now has a criteria that puts Curry in the top 5 for him.It's what happens when you talk yourself into a corner I guess. Curry and Kawhi > Wilt, Shaq, and Lebron.

[dankok8]

Bird didn't carry huge loads in the playoffs. In 1981 finals he got outscored by Maxwell and in 1986 finals by McHale. By your criteria, Bird shouldn't be very high... And Bill Russell? I thought you said no centers and he didn't carry much of a scoring load at all. :lol

[ELITEpower23]

Yep op is a fraud.

+1

Nothing he says matters. He stands for nothing, even his love for Kobe is a secret boost to LeBron's legacy as GOAT

[SouBeachTalents]

Top 90's movies list that doesn't include Forrest Gump. Must be a troll.
Easily one of the most overrated movies of all time. The fact that won the Oscar over Pulp & Shawshank is a joke.

[Ryoka Narusawa]

Pepsi over coke because i love how it tastes

:roll:

[3ba11]

Notice how players with elite jumpshooting skill like Curry or MJ yield instant title contenders by raising a guy like Pippen or Wiggins into a borderline 20-point scorer, while ball-dominators like Lebron or Magic need multiple HOF teammates and absolute juggernaut dominating players to win.

Ultimately, players with elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball have better teammate fits and better strategy (ball movement), so they win with far less help than ball-dominators or centers

[000]

Notice how players with elite jumpshooting skill like Curry or MJ yield instant title contenders by raising a guy like Pippen or Wiggins into a borderline 20-point scorer, while ball-dominators like Lebron or Magic need multiple HOF teammates and absolute juggernaut dominating players to win.

Ultimately, players with elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball have better teammate fits and better strategy (ball movement), so they win with far less help than ball-dominators or centers
Wiggins aint that good. The real success story here is probably Poole

[3ba11]

Wiggins aint that good. The real success story here is probably Poole


Who cares - is Lebron the title favorite with just Poole or Wiggins?

Of course not - ball-dominators need super-teams to contend, while guys with elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball only need a "pippen" like Wiggins or Poole

Curry is showing why Jordan needed so little help (just a pippen) - players with elite jumpshooting skill have better teammate fits and better strategy (ball movement), so they win with far less help than ball-dominators or centers

[SaintzFury13]

Notice how players with elite jumpshooting skill like Curry or MJ yield instant title contenders by raising a guy like Pippen or Wiggins into a borderline 20-point scorer

Um, Wiggins averaged 20 PPG with the Timberwolves three times, you idiot.

[ShawkFactory]

Who cares - is Lebron the title favorite with just Poole or Wiggins?

Of course not - ball-dominators need super-teams to contend, while guys with elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball only need a "pippen" like Wiggins or Poole

Curry is showing why Jordan needed so little help (just a pippen) - players with elite jumpshooting skill have better teammate fits and better strategy (ball movement), so they win with far less help than ball-dominators or centers

Is Curry?

[72-10]

Is this really 3ball or is this an imposter? Why not discuss the top 18 or 20 instead?

[72-10]

Is this really 3ball, or is this an imposter? Why not discuss the 18 or 20 greatest instead?

[3ba11]

Is Curry?


In many people's eyes - yes - there's an OPTIMISM about the great brand of ball the Warriors play, whereas people are typically PESSIMISTIC about the inferior brand of Lebron-ball (fearing a low team ceiling) and asking for more help..

Furthermore, if Klay doesn't return and Curry contends with Poole or Wiggins - that will prove how replaceable sidekicks like Klay are who don't produce at a juggernaut level (they AREN'T equal-scoring partners like AD or Wade) and are basically 15-20 ppg guys

[ShawkFactory]

In many people's eyes - yes - there's an OPTIMISM about the great brand of ball the Warriors play, whereas people are typically PESSIMISTIC about the inferior brand of Lebron-ball (fearing a low team ceiling) and asking for more help..

Furthermore, if Klay doesn't return and Curry contends with Poole or Wiggins - that will prove how replaceable sidekicks like Klay are who don't produce at a juggernaut level (they AREN'T equal-scoring partners like AD or Wade) and are basically 15-20 ppg guys

Ummm..who?

[3ba11]

Bird didn't carry huge loads in the playoffs. In 1981 finals he got outscored by Maxwell and in 1986 finals by McHale. By your criteria, Bird shouldn't be very high... And Bill Russell? I thought you said no centers and he didn't carry much of a scoring load at all. :lol


Bird had a carry-job against a goat team in the 84' Playoffs and Finals (10 more than sidekick in playoffs and Finals).

It's important to note that ball-dominators like Lebron can't win by carrying the scoring load on the Finals level because a Lebron-centric attack is too ball-dominant (and can't beat good teams)... Otoh, Bird can win by carrying the scoring load on the Finals level because he has elite jumpshooting skill, so his scoring is partially assisted, thereby elevating teammates and allowing the best brand of ball (ball movement)

[3ba11]

Ummm..who?


The Warriors have moved ahead of the Bucks as title favorites according to Vegas - Nets, Lakers, Warriors, Bucks are the "big 4" - and all 4 teams have the most championship-experienced players.

https://sportsbook.draftkings.com/nba-finals--odds?category=team-futures


And many media pundits have included recent injuries to Lebron into their rankings and have the Warriors as favorites:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IzGFI6Hfo3w

[ShawkFactory]

The Warriors have moved ahead of the Bucks as title favorites according to Vegas - Nets, Lakers, Warriors, Bucks are the "big 4" - and all 4 teams have the most championship-experienced players.

https://sportsbook.draftkings.com/nba-finals--odds?category=team-futures


And many media pundits have included recent injuries to Lebron into their rankings and have the Warriors as favorites:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IzGFI6Hfo3w

So not the title favorites..

Got it.

[3ba11]

So not the title favorites..

Got it.


many media pundits have included recent injuries to Lebron into their rankings and have the Warriors as favorites:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IzGFI6Hfo3w

[ShawkFactory]

many media pundits have included recent injuries to Lebron into their rankings and have the Warriors as favorites:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IzGFI6Hfo3w

You already posted the Stephen A video.

[SouBeachTalents]

You already posted the Stephen A video.
many media pundits have included recent injuries to Lebron into their rankings and have the Warriors as favorites:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IzGFI6Hfo3w

[k0kakw0rld]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Bird
4. Russell
5. Curry
6. Dirk
7. Duncan
8. Kawhi
9. Hakeem
10. Giannis


CRITERIA

1. No one that planned their destination is allowed - no one that learned how to team-hop - only guys that learned how to WIN (organic)

2. Guys that won without equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (no 1b's) are highly-valued in the rankings, since that represents 1-man team defensive coverage, aka carry-jobs

3. No 1-dimensional centers or ball-dominators, since they need super-team help and have weaker team ceilings/Finals records (Russell would be a PF in most eras, while Hakeem was all-world skill and could play any position like Giannis)
Kobe was drafted by the Hornets and planned not to play for them because he wanted to play for the Lakers.

Curry played next to KD. (1b situation)
Kobe played next to Shaq (1b situation)

Just to show you how small of a boy you are OP.

[3ba11]

many media pundits have included recent injuries to Lebron into their rankings and have the Warriors as favorites:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IzGFI6Hfo3w


Other ESPN people say the Warriors are the best team in the league:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BYbq-vGOLk0


So ask the question..... Would Jordan Poole be any good alongside Lebron?... I doubt it, since other scorers or ball-handlers like Ingram, Hughes, Kuzma, Jamison, Westbrook, Clarkson, Wade and others became bums next to Lebron.. Otoh, teammates always thrive alongside guys with elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball like Curry.

So the media and fans are optimistic about the team ceiling the Warriors brand could yield, while everyone is always super-pessimistic about Lebron-ball's team ceiling and begging for more help

[fsvr54]

Dirk and Giannis :roll:

[Gohan]

Where the hell is iverson 3ball? You said it yourself no one can stop the juggernaut iverson

[RRR3]

Where the hell is iverson 3ball? You said it yourself no one can stop the juggernaut iverson
Kobe sure couldn't :oldlol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E193lJfPZDs

[ShawkFactory]

Other ESPN people say the Warriors are the best team in the league:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BYbq-vGOLk0


So ask the question..... Would Jordan Poole be any good alongside Lebron?... I doubt it, since other scorers or ball-handlers like Ingram, Hughes, Kuzma, Jamison, Westbrook, Clarkson, Wade and others became bums next to Lebron.. Otoh, teammates always thrive alongside guys with elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball like Curry.

So the media and fans are optimistic about the team ceiling the Warriors brand could yield, while everyone is always super-pessimistic about Lebron-ball's team ceiling and begging for more help

Just for fun: explain to me the aspects of Kuzma’s game that make you come to the conclusion that he’s a ball handler, or that playing with Lebron hurt him on the court.

[RRR3]

Just for fun: explain to me the aspects of Kuzma’s game that make you come to the conclusion that he’s a ball handler, or that playing with Lebron hurt him on the court.
Kuzma is scoring at rougly the same rate on worse efficiency this year. But LeBron "hurt" him according to that retard.

[ShawkFactory]

Kuzma is scoring at rougly the same rate on worse efficiency this year. But LeBron "hurt" him according to that retard.

I don’t really care about his scoring rate. I’m asking for a basketball explanation

[RRR3]

I don’t really care about his scoring rate. I’m asking for a basketball explanation
When does he ever have a basketball explanation? He's legitimately an idiot, he struggles to explain the most basic shit :lol

[Axe]

Nike over adidas because lebron xvi

[RogueBorg]

Both rockstar and blizzard make good games but i choose the former because they have more porn content in their games. What about you fellas.

Have you ever played The Isle?

[SaintzFury13]

Other ESPN people say the Warriors are the best team in the league:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BYbq-vGOLk0


So ask the question..... Would Jordan Poole be any good alongside Lebron?... I doubt it, since other scorers or ball-handlers like Ingram, Hughes, Kuzma, Jamison, Westbrook, Clarkson, Wade and others became bums next to Lebron.. Otoh, teammates always thrive alongside guys with elite jumpshooting skill/off-ball like Curry.

So the media and fans are optimistic about the team ceiling the Warriors brand could yield, while everyone is always super-pessimistic about Lebron-ball's team ceiling and begging for more help

Wait, you've always claimed that LeBron needed superteams to win. Now you're claiming the second best player on two of his championship teams became a bum playing alongside him.

So which is it? Either LeBron had stacked superteams or he carried bums to a title. You can't have it both ways.

[3ba11]

Dirk and Giannis :roll:


Both have the highest quality of rings:

Neither had an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention (no 1b's), so they faced 1-man team defensive coverage, and neither had super-teams and won organically - organic rings with no 1b's and no super-teams is the highest quality ring, so guys with these type or rings (my top 10) are superior

[3ba11]

Just for fun: explain to me the aspects of Kuzma’s game that make you come to the conclusion that he’s a ball handler, or that playing with Lebron hurt him on the court.


My post said that Lebron reduces ball-handlers OR scorers, and Kuzma is the latter, just like Jamison..

The stats tell the story - Kuzma takes a lot more shots early in the shot clock (he's allowed to call his own number) or late in the shot clock (he's allowed to close).

Consequently, Kuzma is a real factor for the East's best team, whereas he wasn't a factor that drove winning for the lakers because he was reduced to spot-up role by Lebron's ball-dominance and lack of elite jumpshooting skill..

[Axe]

Have you ever played The Isle?
Nani!?

[RRR3]

My post said that Lebron reduces ball-handlers OR scorers, and Kuzma is the latter, just like Jamison..

The stats tell the story - Kuzma takes a lot more shots early in the shot clock (he's allowed to call his own number) or late in the shot clock (he's allowed to close).

Consequently, Kuzma is a real factor for the East's best team, whereas he wasn't a factor that drove winning for the lakers because he was reduced to spot-up role by Lebron's ball-dominance and lack of elite jumpshooting skill..
He's scoring at a lower rate and at a lower efficiency without LeBron :yaohappy:

[ShawkFactory]

My post said that Lebron reduces ball-handlers OR scorers, and Kuzma is the latter, just like Jamison..

The stats tell the story - Kuzma takes a lot more shots early in the shot clock (he's allowed to call his own number) or late in the shot clock (he's allowed to close).

Consequently, Kuzma is a real factor for the East's best team, whereas he wasn't a factor that drove winning for the lakers because he was reduced to spot-up role by Lebron's ball-dominance and lack of elite jumpshooting skill..

Kuzma spot up frequency:

2018-2019: 22% (Lebron, no Davis; career high in points)
2019-2020: 28% (Lebron and Davis)
2020-2021: 29% (Lebron and Davis)
2021-2022: 40% (No Lebron, no Davis; career low in TS%)

[SouBeachTalents]

Kuzma spot up frequency:

2018-2019: 22% (Lebron, no Davis; career high in points)
2019-2020: 28% (Lebron and Davis)
2020-2021: 29% (Lebron and Davis)
2021-2022: 40% (No Lebron, no Davis; career low in TS%)
:roll:

[ShawkFactory]

:roll:

It is amusing. He uses the same agenda logic umbrella for every situation without any actual analyzation. Which might play when talking about things that happened 30 years ago. Although not really because YouTube and social media exists.

But trying to do that for something that’s literally happening right now? Fvck outta here.

[3ba11]

Kuzma spot up frequency:

2018-2019: 22% (Lebron, no Davis; career high in points)
2019-2020: 28% (Lebron and Davis)
2020-2021: 29% (Lebron and Davis)
2021-2022: 40% (No Lebron, no Davis; career low in TS%)


Kuzma takes a lot more shots early in the shot clock this year (he's allowed to call his own number) or late in the shot clock (he's allowed to close).

Consequently, Kuzma is a real factor for the East's best team, whereas he wasn't a factor that drove winning for the lakers and the weaker brand meant he didn't WIN with Lebron in 2019

[Pip' N Rodman]

Kuzma takes a lot more shots early in the shot clock (he's allowed to call his own number) or late in the shot clock (he's allowed to close).

Why did Jordan win with 4 and 2, while LeBron lost with 12 and 10?

[RRR3]

Kuzma takes a lot more shots early in the shot clock this year (he's allowed to call his own number) or late in the shot clock (he's allowed to close).

Consequently, Kuzma is a real factor for the East's best team, whereas he wasn't a factor that drove winning for the lakers because he was reduced to spot-up role by Lebron's ball-dominance and lack of elite jumpshooting skill..
He literally proved this isn’t true you bot

[ShawkFactory]

whereas he wasn’t a factor that drove winning for the lakers because he was reduced to spot-up role


Kuzma spot up frequency:

2018-2019: 22% (Lebron, no Davis; career high in points)
2019-2020: 28% (Lebron and Davis)
2020-2021: 29% (Lebron and Davis)
2021-2022: 40% (No Lebron, no Davis; career low in TS%)

:facepalm

[3ba11]

He literally proved this isn’t true you bot


It was a weaker team brand of ball-dominance so he didn't win with Lebron in 2019, whereas Beal's elite jumpshooting skill (superior team offense and ball movement) wins more with Kuzma than Lebron did.. Lebron needs super-teams to compete with the big boys and can't win without super-teams or 1b's

[RRR3]

It was a weaker team brand of ball-dominance so he didn't win with Lebron in 2019, whereas Beal's elite jumpshooting skill (superior team offense and ball movement) wins more with Kuzma than Lebron did.. Lebron needs super-teams to compete with the big boys and can't win without super-teams or 1b's
He is spotting up more with Beal.

[ShawkFactory]

He is spotting up more with Beal.

This guy changed his post retroactively because he got destroyed so badly while at the same time saying the Lebron James played a weaker brand of ball than Bradley fvcking Beal.

Top notch weaselry :lol

[RRR3]

This guy changed his post retroactively because he got destroyed so badly while at the same time saying the Lebron James played a weaker brand of ball than Bradley fvcking Beal.

Top notch weaselry :lol
He is quite possibly the worst poster in NBA forum history tbqh.

[3ba11]

He is spotting up more with Beal.


The team offense is far superior with Beal's elite jumpshooting style, so Kuzma is winning more with Beal than Lebron's weaker team brand (ball-dominance)

[RRR3]

Bleep bloop I’m a bot
I know.

[3ba11]

I know.


^^^ Translation: you won the argument (Kuzma succeeding more with Beal)

[RRR3]

D-duh I’m retarded duhhhhh
He won a ring with LeBron and his stats were better.

[ShawkFactory]

The team offense is far superior with Beal's elite jumpshooting style, so Kuzma is winning more with Beal than Lebron's weaker team brand (ball-dominance)

They’re the 17th ranked offense

[3ba11]

They’re the 17th ranked offense


Wizards are 15th and Lakers were 24th before AD arrived, so Lebron couldn't do shit out West without AD, and couldn't win the East more than an Iverson/Dwight one-off despite multiple 1 seeds (needed super-teams)

[Axe]

Guys, do y'all remember when op said about predicting oubre jr. > klay last season?

[3ba11]

Guys, do y'all remember when op said about predicting oubre jr. > klay last season?


That was an obvious troll, whereas these rankings are real rankings with real criteria - this is a top 10 comprised of players that know how to win (organic) without equal-scoring partners/1b's or super-teams, aka carry-jobs, and these players yielded the best team ceilings/Finals records... :confusedshrug:

What's your criteria?.. Media Awards?... :yaohappy:

[Axe]

That was an obvious troll, whereas these rankings are real rankings with real criteria - this is a top 10 comprised of players that know how to win (organic) without equal-scoring partners/1b's or super-teams, aka carry-jobs, and these players yielded the best team ceilings/Finals records... :confusedshrug:

What's your criteria?.. Media Awards?... :yaohappy:
:sleeping

[3ba11]

:sleeping


Apparently you prefer players with media awards but don't know how to win (team-hoppers), while needing equal-scoring partners/1b's and super-teams (more help), and these players yielded the lowest team ceilings/Finals records.

[ShawkFactory]

Wizards are 15th and Lakers were 24th before AD arrived, so Lebron couldn't do shit out West without AD, and couldn't win the East more than an Iverson/Dwight one-off despite multiple 1 seeds (needed super-teams)

Your “argument” has been destroyed, in other words.

[SouBeachTalents]

Your “argument” has been destroyed, in other words.
Idk about that, he does make some reasonable points that Bradley Beal plays a higher brand of ball than an 8x MVP

[ShawkFactory]

Idk about that, he does make some reasonable points that Bradley Beal plays a higher brand of ball than an 8x MVP

When guys like Kuzma and Clarkson (the ones who were reduced to spot-up roles apparently) are now spotting up way more than they ever did with Lebron. Whoops.

[2much_knowledge]

Its a crazy list but hey, as long as #1 is correct

[3ba11]

Your “argument” has been destroyed, in other words.


The argument that Lebron reduces the stats of teammates compared to their stats without him?

No, that's 100% historical record and public information

Ingram had a 1-year drop across the board alongside Lebron in 2019 (3-point efficiency, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), while Bosh/Love/Jamison/Kuzma saw far lower stats and/or role alongside Lebron - Bosh/Love became role players and a far cry from the 20 ppg and ability to dominate of other 3rd options like Klay, Jrue, Ray Allen, Worthy, Manu, etc.

[ShawkFactory]

The argument that Lebron reduces the stats of teammates compared to their stats without him?

No, that's 100% historical record and public information

So we’ve moved on from “reducing them to spot up shooter”. Might need to do some further analyzation then :lol

[3ba11]

So we’ve moved on from “reducing them to spot up shooter”. Might need to do some further analyzation then :lol


Of course he reduces them to spot-up shooter - he literally reduces their playmaking (apg) and increases their play-finishing (assisted rate) - so he turns them from playmakers to play-finishers, aka makes them worse players... And by lowering teammates' apg, he lowers the TEAM'S apg and has a low ball movement brand that yields underperforming team ceilings/Finals records.. Indeed, the common thread in Lebron's Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists.

Again, the stats tell the story - Mo, Love, Bosh, Wade, Kyrie, Ingram and Hughes saw their apg decrease and assisted rate increase alongside Lebron (he made them play-finishers), while his team had low assists including massive deficits in the Finals.

And of course the players themselves see their stats decline... Ingram had a 1-year drop across the board alongside Lebron in 2019 (3-point efficiency, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), while Bosh/Love/Jamison/Kuzma saw far lower stats and/or role alongside Lebron - Bosh/Love became play-finishing role players and a far cry from other 3rd options that averaged 20 ppg or dominated when needed like Klay, Jrue, Ray Allen, Worthy, Manu, etc.

[ShawkFactory]

Then why do all of these player spot up more now, huh??

I already highlighted Kuzma and Clarkson and how they spot up at a FAR higher rate now than they did with Lebron. Go look up Ingram if you want (hint: he spots up at a higher frequency now too).

So the entire premise of your argument, that Lebron reduces guys by turning them into spot up shooters, is debunked.

Now we’ll move along to the actual basketball scenario, being that a players stats are going to decrease when they are demoted in option number on the team (I.e 1st to 2nd, 1st to 3rd, 2nd to 4th, etc). This is the case throughout basketball history.

[GimmeThat]

Of course he reduces them to spot-up shooter - he literally reduces their playmaking (apg) and increases their play-finishing (assisted rate) - so he turns them from playmakers to play-finishers, aka makes them worse players... And by lowering teammates' apg, he lowers the TEAM'S apg and has a low ball movement brand that yields underperforming team ceilings/Finals records.. Indeed, the common thread in Lebron's Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists.

Again, the stats tell the story - Mo, Love, Bosh, Wade, Kyrie, Ingram and Hughes saw their apg decrease and assisted rate increase alongside Lebron (he made them play-finishers), while his team had low assists including massive deficits in the Finals.

And of course the players themselves see their stats decline... Ingram had a 1-year drop across the board alongside Lebron in 2019 (3-point efficiency, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP), while Bosh/Love/Jamison/Kuzma saw far lower stats and/or role alongside Lebron - Bosh/Love became play-finishing role players and a far cry from other 3rd options that averaged 20 ppg or dominated when needed like Klay, Jrue, Ray Allen, Worthy, Manu, etc.

the whole reducing teammates APG is a simple idea, the basketball court is a rectangle, for good reasons. unless the basketball court is turned into a square with the 3 point line being a round circle, (which would serve no purpose when you consider pace as a factor) the best play maker will naturally reduce others into play-finishers. you also have to consider coaching as a play maker, as coaches do in fact turn players into play-finishers.

[Wally450]

LeBron Top 3 all Time.

Meltdown.

[3ba11]

Then why do all of these player spot up more now, huh??

I already highlighted Kuzma and Clarkson and how they spot up at a FAR higher rate now than they did with Lebron. Go look up Ingram if you want (hint: he spots up at a higher frequency now too).

So the entire premise of your argument, that Lebron reduces guys by turning them into spot up shooters, is debunked.

Now we’ll move along to the actual basketball scenario, being that a players stats are going to decrease when they are demoted in option number on the team (I.e 1st to 2nd, 1st to 3rd, 2nd to 4th, etc). This is the case throughout basketball history.


His teammates go to teams that move the ball better, so the spot-ups are off ball movement (better brand) instead of predictable ball-dominant drive-and-kicks.. Getting the spot-ups via ball movement is a more equal-opportunity approach that wins more with guys like Kuzma and doesn't need super-teams

And of course, the idea that Lebron turns star players like Bosh/Love/Wade into spot-up shooters is true, but you misapplied it to lesser players like Clarkson who are already spot-up shooters

[ShawkFactory]

But let’s get back to Kuzma. In 2019 he had his highest PPG, assist%, and second highest TS% of his career. This year he has his lowest assist%, TS%, and by far the highest spot up percentage (as well as highest 0 dribble scoring plays and scoring plays with less than 2 seconds of possession time).

The Wizards are also averaging 23.4 assists per game and the 2019 lakers averaged 25.6 per game

Meaning? Lebron didn’t do shit to him. And couple that with you always claiming Lebron turned Clarkson into a spot up shooter (yes, he is on your “list”; but you are now saying Clarkson was already a spot up shooter..dafuq??) means you only have the ability to use your “Lebron rules” as a blanket statement for all things basketball. You lack the ability (or interest) to apply any nuance and look at things on a case-by-case scenario, which is how analyzation of basketball works.

I know this will fall on deaf ears and you’ll just be repeating the same shit over and over tomorrow. But it’s fun to sometimes come in every now and then and obliterate your “points“ and make you move the goalposts. Even if it doesn’t matter.

[3ba11]

But let’s get back to Kuzma. In 2019 he had his highest PPG, assist%, and second highest TS% of his career. This year he has his lowest assist%, TS%, and by far the highest spot up percentage (as well as highest 0 dribble scoring plays and scoring plays with less than 2 seconds of possession time).

The Wizards are also averaging 23.4 assists per game and the 2019 lakers averaged 25.6 per game

Meaning? Lebron didn’t do shit to him. And couple that with you always claiming Lebron turned Clarkson into a spot up shooter (yes, he is on your “list”; but you are now saying Clarkson was already a spot up shooter..dafuq??) means you only have the ability to use your “Lebron rules” as a blanket statement for all things basketball. You lack the ability (or interest) to apply any nuance and look at things on a case-by-case scenario, which is how analyzation of basketball works.

I know this will fall on deaf ears and you’ll just be repeating the same shit over and over tomorrow. But it’s fun to sometimes come in every now and then and obliterate your “points“ and make you move the goalposts. Even if it doesn’t matter.


Lebron turns star players like Bosh/Love/Wade into spot-up shooters and play-finishers - this applies less to role players like Clarkson who are already spotting up a lot, but it still applies because they're getting crappier spot-ups, aka drive-and-kick versus equal-opportunity ball movement that can win with less talent..

And again, turning star players into spot-up shooters reduces their assists which reduces the TEAM'S assists and creates a brand that struggles on the Finals level - the common thread in Lebron's Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists.

And Kuzma is playing in a superior offense than Lebron's lottery Lakers and this offense can be a top team without super-team help or MVP sidekick help like AD

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron turns star players like Bosh/Love/Wade into spot-up shooters and play-finishers - this applies less to role players like Clarkson who are already spotting up a lot, but it still applies because they're getting crappier spot-ups, aka drive-and-kick versus equal-opportunity ball movement that can win with less talent..

And again, turning star players into spot-up shooters reduces their assists which reduces the TEAM'S assists and creates a brand that struggles on the Finals level - the common thread in Lebron's Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists.

And Kuzma is playing in a superior offense than Lebron's lottery Lakers and this offense can be a top team without super-team help or MVP sidekick help like AD

Huh? Didn’t we already discuss how they were middle of the pack offensively?

[3ba11]

Huh? Didn’t we already discuss how they were middle of the pack offensively?


Middle of the pack > near-last for the 19' Lakers

Near-last = guaranteed lottery, while middle of the pack can win (and is)

[ShawkFactory]

The Lakers had a 15-4 stretch in November/December before Lebron got hurt. And then Ingram not too long after; although Ingram was dealing with nagging issues all year.

We’ll see if the Wizards can keep this up (both offensively and record wise) should they lose Beal and Dinwiddie for months at a time: their two best ball-handlers and creators.

[3ba11]

The Lakers had a 15-4 stretch in November/December before Lebron got hurt. And then Ingram not too long after; although Ingram was dealing with nagging issues all year.

We’ll see if the Wizards can keep this up (both offensively and record wise) should they lose Beal and Dinwiddie for months at a time: their two best ball-handlers and creators.


Lakers had easiest schedule to start 2019, yet they still had a 48-win pace when Lebron got hurt (20-14) that would've lost the tie-breaker with the Clippers for the 8 seed..

[ShawkFactory]

Lakers had easiest schedule to start 2019, yet they still had a 48-win pace when Lebron got hurt (20-14) that would've lost the tie-breaker with the Clippers for the 8 seed..

They were a weird case because they had several other injuries throughout.

Missed games:

Kuzma- 14
Lebron- 27
Ingram- 30
Lonzo- 35
Rondo- 36

Rondo and Ingram has issues earlier on; Lebron, Ingram, Kuzma and Lonzo later.

Just a very unlucky year.

[RogueBorg]

Why did Jordan win with 4 and 2, while LeBron lost with 12 and 10?

Because Lebron had 21 turnovers in 5 games to Jordan's 10 turnovers in 6 games.

[SouBeachTalents]

Because Lebron had 21 turnovers in 5 games to Jordan's 10 turnovers in 6 games.
So LeBron had more than twice as many assists as turnovers while Jordan was barely above an equal ratio

[3ba11]

I knew this thread would age spectacularly

[WhiteKyrie]

I respect that list and criterium, to be honest

[Shooter]

https://i.postimg.cc/MTVvVFZY/No-One-cares.gif

[Phoenix]

I knew this thread would age spectacularly

That's one of the worst top 10 lists I've ever seen. Kudos for being the village idiot on a website full of em....

[WhiteKyrie]

That's one of the worst top 10 lists I've ever seen. Kudos for being the village idiot on a website full of em....
He clearly values respectful levels of competitors and players that cultivated winning. From a perspective, it has a lot of credibility and truth. You post here too, are you extracting yourself above the stupidity? Why do you keep posting here then?

[3ba11]

He clearly values respectful levels of competitors and players that cultivated winning. From a perspective, it has a lot of credibility and truth. You post here too, are you extracting yourself above the stupidity? Why do you keep posting here then?


Winning organically is linked to brand of ball - all the organic winners had superior chemistry and brand of ball than their Finals opponent like the 04' Pistons over the Lakers or 11' Mavs over the Heat.

So Lebron never developed sufficient brand of ball to win organically - he quit in 2010 before developing the know-how and opted for talent-based winning (team-hopping.. all-star game strategy)..

Nowadays his frontcourt ball-dominance is known for the worst teammate fits and chemistry ever (woat brand) that needs ridiculous talent to win (talent-based winner that never learned how to win, aka chemistry/brand)

[Cleverness]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Bird
4. Russell
5. Curry
6. Dirk
7. Duncan
8. Kawhi
9. Hakeem
10. Giannis

Good list other than Kawhi at 8

[3ba11]

Good list other than Kawhi at 8


Yeah, time to switch him and Giannis

I'm thinking about putting Rick Barry in the top 10 because he didn't use team-hopper or all-star team strategy (talent-based winning) and actually knew how to WIN (organic.. brand of ball), while also having the elite jumpshooting skill to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load for playoffs and Finals of title run)

[Phoenix]

He clearly values respectful levels of competitors and players that cultivated winning. From a perspective, it has a lot of credibility and truth. [I] You post here too,1) are you extracting yourself above the stupidity? 2) Why do you keep posting here then?

1)Clearly, and 2) mostly for shits and giggles. Note I said a 'website full of idiots'. That doesn't mean everyone here is. I can separate the trolls from the few genuine posters arguing in good faith. I don't care what criteria you think he's using for his picks, you're defending a guy who had both Giannis and Curry as incredibly overrated one year and top 10 the next. And now thinks Rick Barry is possibly in the top 10, which is not to shit on him, but come on man.

[SouBeachTalents]

1)Clearly, and 2) mostly for shits and giggles. Note I said a 'website full of idiots'. That doesn't mean everyone here is. I can separate the trolls from the few genuine posters arguing in good faith. I don't care what criteria you think he's using for his picks, you're defending a guy who had both Giannis and Curry as incredibly overrated one year and top 10 the next. And now thinks Rick Barry is possibly in the top 10, which is not to shit on him, but come on man.
He organizes his top 10 all time based off literally one year playoff runs, instead of the entirety of a players career. Hence the retarded list you see that will probably soon include Rick Barry :lol

And of course, only on this shithole would other posters actually agree it was a good list lol.

[3ba11]

He organizes his top 10 all time based off literally one year playoff runs, instead of the entirety of a players career. Hence the retarded list you see that will probably soon include Rick Barry :lol

And of course, only on this shithole would other posters actually agree it was a good list lol.


I use a player's entire career to see if they learned to win (brand of ball.. organic) instead of just learning to team-hop (talent-based winning)

And I use their whole career to see if they were capable of defeating maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title run)

So looks like you're wrong again - if a player goes an entire career without learning to win (organic) or defeating maximum defensive attention (carry load), then they aren't top 10

[RRR3]

Good list other than Kawhi at 8
Good to know you’re braindead about basketball too.

[SouBeachTalents]

I use a player's entire career to see if they learned to win (brand of ball.. organic) instead of just learning to team-hop (talent-based winning)

And I use their whole career to see if they were capable of defeating maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title run)

So looks like you're wrong again - if a player goes an entire career without learning to win (organic) or defeating maximum defensive attention (carry load), then they aren't top 10
Nope, I'm actually 100% correct. Kawhi, Dirk & Giannis are all included on the basis of literally one playoff run, you take out their lone superstar title runs and they suddenly don't meet your criteria. So suffice to say, it's an incredibly idiotic way to analyze & rank 10-15+ year careers, but that shouldn't surprise anyone considering it's coming from you :lol

[3ba11]

Nope, I'm actually 100% correct. Kawhi, Dirk & Giannis are all included on the basis of literally one playoff run, you take out their lone superstar title runs and they suddenly don't meet your criteria. So suffice to say, it's an incredibly idiotic way to analyze & rank 10-15+ year careers, but that shouldn't surprise anyone considering it's coming from you :lol


That's how careers work without team-hopping

Players have many chances to defeat maximum defensive attention or win organically in their career - if they never do it, then that means they CAN'T

[SouBeachTalents]

That's how careers work without team-hopping

Players have many chances to defeat maximum defensive attention or win organically in their career - if they never do it, then that means they CAN'T
Bill Russell never came close to defeating maximum defensive attention, he might have been the Celtics leading scorer on maybe 2 of the 11 title teams, so looks like you can't even follow your own criteria.

[RRR3]

Bill Russell never came close to defeating maximum defensive attention, he might have been the Celtics leading scorer on maybe 2 of the 11 title teams, so looks like you can't even follow your own criteria.
Honesty how does he even remember how to turn on his phone?

[Wally450]

One of the dumbest lists I've seen. Congrats 2ball.

[3ba11]

Bill Russell never came close to defeating maximum defensive attention, he might have been the Celtics leading scorer on maybe 2 of the 11 title teams, so looks like you can't even follow your own criteria.


Yeah but he won organically 11 times

So he's a "10" on knowing how to win and a 3 on defeating maximum defensive attention, compared to Lebron's 0 for knowing how to win and 5 for defeating maximum defensive attention.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah but he won organically 11 times

So he's a "10" on knowing how to win and a 3 on defeating maximum defensive attention, compared to Lebron's 0 for knowing how to win and 5 for defeating maximum defensive attention.
So then how the hell is Duncan ranked below Dirk with 5x the titles? Why did Kawhi & Dirk make it but not Kareem or Wade, who both won organically and by defeating maximum defensive attention? And where the hell is Hondo who not only meets both criteria, but won EIGHT god damn titles, and was 8-0 in the Finals?

[3ba11]

So then how the hell is Duncan ranked below Dirk with 5x the titles? Why did Kawhi & Dirk make it but not Kareem or Wade, who both won organically and by defeating maximum defensive attention? And where the hell is Hondo who not only meets both criteria, but won EIGHT god damn titles, and was 8-0 in the Finals?


Duncan defeated maximum defensive attention on the 03' run, while obviously knowing how to win (organic)

Nonetheless, Dirk is ranked above him because he nearly beat duncan and DID beat duncan with far less help.. His skillset (big man shooter) was a Bird skillset, which is more deadly than Duncan's - Dirk would be battling with Jokic every year for MVP in today's game

See, if Lebron could've won organically once like Dirk, while also defeating maximum defensive attention, then this would easily make him top 10... But in 20 seasons, he did neither, and therefore CAN'T

[SouBeachTalents]

Duncan defeated maximum defensive attention on the 03' run, while obviously knowing how to win (organic)

Dirk is ranked above him because he nearly beat Duncan and beat Duncan with far less help.. His skillset (big man shooter) was a Bird skillset, which is more deadly than Duncan's - Dirk would be battling with Jokic every year for MVP in today's game
Yeah, don't address the other points I made :lol

[3ba11]

So then how the hell is Duncan ranked below Dirk with 5x the titles? Why did Kawhi & Dirk make it but not Kareem or Wade, who both won organically and by defeating maximum defensive attention? And where the hell is Hondo who not only meets both criteria, but won EIGHT god damn titles, and was 8-0 in the Finals?


You make some good points about Hondo, Wade and Kareem.. The rankings could be re-adjusted but maybe not because all those guys needed other top 10 candidates to win - it's all about needing the least help and I don't think Kareem or Hondo qualify.

[Phoenix]

You make some good points about Hondo, Wade and Kareem.. The rankings could be re-adjusted but maybe not because all those guys needed other top 10 candidates to win - it's all about needing the least help and I don't think Kareem or Hondo qualify.

Shaq dropped 14/10 in the 2006 finals. Regardless of whether his overall career is top 10 and/or he's top 5 in terms of GOAT dominance/peak ( which he is in both cases), within the context of that finals Pau Gasol produced more in both the 2009 and 2010 finals than Shaq did in the 2006 finals, but you'd sit there and underplay Pau's relevance to the 2009 and 2010 Laker chips.

Wade was on the Heat team BEFORE Shaq got there and was the clear-cut 1st option in 2006, so everything you use to assign top 10 status to Kawhi could be applied to Wade. You give Pippen shit for MJ outproducing him 10-20ppg, so what would you call Wade averaging 35ppg to Shaq's 14ppg? You set a criteria and then seem to miss the obvious loopholes it creates.

Kawhi incidentally, won his first chip in 2014 with a 37 year old Duncan also outproducing Shaq's 2006 final production, and who team-hopped onto an already competitive Raptors team for his 2nd chip( which he likely doesn't win if KD plays the entire series).

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq dropped 14/10 in the 2006 finals. Regardless of whether his overall career is top 10 and/or he's top 5 in terms of GOAT dominance/peak ( which he is in both cases), within the context of that finals Pau Gasol produced more in both the 2009 and 2010 finals than Shaq did in the 2006 finals, but you'd sit there and underplay Pau's relevance to the 2009 and 2010 Laker chips.

Wade was on the Heat team BEFORE Shaq got there and was the clear-cut 1st option in 2006, so everything you use to assign top 10 status to Kawhi could be applied to Wade. You give Pippen shit for MJ outproducing him 10-20ppg, so what would you call Wade averaging 35ppg to Shaq's 14ppg? You set a criteria and then seem to miss the obvious loopholes it creates.

Kawhi incidentally, won his first chip in 2014 with a 37 year old Duncan also outproducing Shaq's 2006 final production, and who team-hopped onto an already competitive Raptors team for his 2nd chip( which he likely doesn't win if KD plays the entire series).
Word, '09 & '10 Gasol is at WORST on the same level as '06 Shaq, and I bet he'd get the nod if a poll were taken asking which player was better.

And the Kawhi inclusion frankly doesn't make sense. He was the Spurs 4th leading scorer in the playoffs, 2nd in the Finals, then goes to a team that while not championship caliber, was an annual contender before he got there, and was on a 60 win pace the season after he left. So I don't see anything "organic" about that title, and for his Spurs one he was a role player surrounded by HOF's.

[3ba11]

Shaq dropped 14/10 in the 2006 finals. Regardless of whether his overall career is top 10 and/or he's top 5 in terms of GOAT dominance/peak ( which he is in both cases), within the context of that finals Pau Gasol produced more in both the 2009 and 2010 finals than Shaq did in the 2006 finals, but you'd sit there and underplay Pau's relevance to the 2009 and 2010 Laker chips.

Wade was on the Heat team BEFORE Shaq got there and was the clear-cut 1st option in 2006, so everything you use to assign top 10 status to Kawhi could be applied to Wade. You give Pippen shit for MJ outproducing him 10-20ppg, so what would you call Wade averaging 35ppg to Shaq's 14ppg? You set a criteria and then seem to miss the obvious loopholes it creates.

Kawhi incidentally, won his first chip in 2014 with a 37 year old Duncan also outproducing Shaq's 2006 final production, and who team-hopped onto an already competitive Raptors team for his 2nd chip( which he likely doesn't win if KD plays the entire series).


Not all organic winners can make the top 10

Some must be left off

Both Wade and Kawhi won organically, but I think Kawhi's peak was a little better on both ends..

Specifically, he had better jumpshooting skill, so his teammate fits and chemistry was better.. He fit into a system, while 06' Wade benefitted from getting Shaq and Zo - it was a more talent-based victory, while Kawhi mastered brand of ball..

Wade's weaker brand and chemistry manifested itself in massive debacles alongside Lebron in 11, 14', and nearly 13'... One shot by Allen turned Wade's career from goat-caliber underachiver to viable

[Phoenix]

Not all organic winners can make the top 10

Some must be left off

Both Wade and Kawhi won organically, but I think Kawhi's peak was a little better on both ends..

Specifically, he had better jumpshooting skill, so his teammate fits and chemistry was better.. He fit into a system, while 06' Wade benefitted from getting Shaq and Zo - it was a more talent-based victory, while Kawhi mastered brand of ball..

Wade's weaker brand and chemistry manifested itself in massive debacles alongside Lebron in 11, 14', and nearly 13'... One shot by Allen turned Wade's career from goat-caliber underachiver to viable

Based on what? If the Allen shot doesn't go in Wade still has 2 titles and a finals MVP. He could only be an underachiever if he had major expectations coming into the league, which he didn't. Kawhi set a level of expectation after the 2019 chip that he's failed to meet since leaving Toronto, speaking of underachieving...

[Phoenix]

Word, '09 & '10 Gasol is at WORST on the same level as '06 Shaq, and I bet he'd get the nod if a poll were taken asking which player was better.

And the Kawhi inclusion frankly doesn't make sense. He was the Spurs 4th leading scorer in the playoffs, 2nd in the Finals, then goes to a team that while not championship caliber, was an annual contender before he got there, and was on a 60 win pace the season after he left. So I don't see anything "organic" about that title, and for his Spurs one he was a role player surrounded by HOF's.

Easily, but you can figure out which posters would pick Shaq.

[RRR3]

Easily, but you can figure out which posters would pick Shaq.
ImKobe, ttrolls and Kenny the holy trinity of Kobetardedness

[tpols]

ImKobe, ttrolls and Kenny the holy trinity of Kobetardedness

Shaq did average 22/11 on 65+% shooting in the 2006 ECFs against Detroit. Pau never had a single series in his entire career as good as that. Miami Heat Shaq finished 2nd in MVP voting. To say he was worse than Pau is a true exposure of your basketball knowledge mi amigo.

[ShawkFactory]

Shaq did average 22/11 on 65+% shooting in the 2006 ECFs against Detroit. Pau never had a single series in his entire career as good as that. Miami Heat Shaq finished 2nd in MVP voting. To say he was worse than Pau is a true exposure of your basketball knowledge mi amigo.

You can absolutely make the case that Pau in 09/10 was better than Shaq in 2006. Particularly since Shaq had some injuries.

[Phoenix]

Shaq did average 22/11 on 65+% shooting in the 2006 ECFs against Detroit. Pau never had a single series in his entire career as good as that. Miami Heat Shaq finished 2nd in MVP voting. To say he was worse than Pau is a true exposure of your basketball knowledge mi amigo.

But he was 14/10 in the finals, and was out-produced by Pau's 2009 and 2010 finals which was the original point. If Shaq was on the 2010 Lakers and produced that in the finals against Boston, you'd give him shit and say Kobe carried him. Frankly if Pau had produced Shaqs 2006 finals statline the Lakers lose that series.

[RRR3]

ImKobe, ttrolls and Kenny the holy trinity of Kobetardedness
Right on cue :oldlol:


Must. Defend. Beeeeeeeee.

[tpols]

But he was 14/10 in the finals, and was out-produced by Pau's 2009 and 2010 finals which was the original point. If Shaq was on the 2010 Lakers and produced that in the finals against Boston, you'd give him shit and say Kobe carried him. Frankly if Pau had produced Shaqs 2006 finals statline the Lakers lose that series.

Pau in his first year with the Lakers when everybody said it was unfair and he was at his youngest and most prime averaged 14/10 in the Finals. KG bullied him. I shudder to think what the Pistons would do to him. At the end of the day, Miami Shaq was an MVP candidate. Pau has never been on that level.

[3ba11]

Based on what? If the Allen shot doesn't go in Wade still has 2 titles and a finals MVP. He could only be an underachiever if he had major expectations coming into the league, which he didn't. Kawhi set a level of expectation after the 2019 chip that he's failed to meet since leaving Toronto, speaking of underachieving...


2/4 was an underachevement with Lebron/Bosh

1/4 would've been worst-ever underachevement

So Wade underachieved big time.

Btw, the 2/4 included goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do with Lebron/Bosh, and it was a lucky bounce away from 1/4

So Wade's spotty-shooting ball-dominant skillset has the same poor teammate fits and chemistry as Lebron's... It isn't quite as bad as Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance, but any ball-dominance is suboptimal except in bailout situations (end-of-shot clock)

[Phoenix]

Pau in his first year with the Lakers when everybody said it was unfair and he was at his youngest and most prime averaged 14/10 in the Finals. KG bullied him. I shudder to think what the Pistons would do to him. At the end of the day, Miami Shaq was an MVP candidate. Pau has never been on that level.

2005 Shaq was an MVP candidate. 2006 Shaq wasn't.

Pau produced more in the 2009 and 2010 finals than 2006 finals Shaq. Right or wrong? Countering that with what Shaq did to a different opponent is your usual on-brand diversionary bullshit. Shaq's physicality neutralized the Pistons frontline better than Pau would have, agreed, but you also shit on that physicality when it suits you. Furthermore, the 2010 Celtics frontline with Perkins, Wallace, and KG weren't exactly punks either and Pau dropped 19/11 on them, capping the series off as the best overall performer in game 7. Or would you like to negate your usual wanking off about efficiency to argue for Kobe here?

Again, if Shaq was on the 2010 Lakers and dropped his 2006 finals numbers, you'd be screaming from the rooftops (if the Lakers lost) that he underperformed, and if the Lakers won it's a Kobe carry job to fuel your Kobe>Shaq narrative. You're hilariously transparent.

[Phoenix]

2/4 was an underachevement with Lebron/Bosh

1/4 would've been worst-ever underachevement

So Wade underachieved big time.

Btw, the 2/4 included goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do with Lebron/Bosh, and it was a lucky bounce away from 1/4

So Wade's spotty-shooting ball-dominant skillset has the same poor teammate fits and chemistry as Lebron's... It isn't quite as bad as Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance, but any ball-dominance is suboptimal except in bailout situations (end-of-shot clock)

Wade performed well enough in 2011 for the Heat to have gone 3/4 if Lebron hadn't underperformed against Dallas relative to the standard he had set at that point. Again, he was never projected to be as good as he ended up so nobody (except you) looks at his career as an underachievement, especially a GOAT level one. That's your usual hyperbolic bullshit.

[John8204]

2 Rings was fine for the Heat....people act like they were a super team but in reality where would you rank Wade and Bosh compared to the other finalists from those four years.

1. Lebron
2. Duncan
3. Dirk
4. Leonard
5. Durant
6. Kidd
7. Harden
8. Wade
9. Allen
10. Parker
11. Westbrook
12. Manu
13. Bosh
14. Marion
15. Green

Maybe you could have Wade at 7 over Harden all-time and maybe you could rank Bosh ahead of Manu and Westbrook...people are way to hyped about that Heat team

[3ba11]

Isn't it amazing that Curry and Giannis proving me wrong??.. It confirms their greatness

That's what the goats do.

heck, in 1985 I probably would've been like:

"that skinny little shooting guard will never win anything - it's a big man's league - and everyone knows that scoring champs can't win"

lol.. goat gonna goat.. Curry is top 5 all-time

[3ba11]

2 Rings was fine for the Heat....people act like they were a super team but in reality where would you rank Wade and Bosh compared to the other finalists from those four years.





In 2010, Lebron asked the NBA:

"Who has the highest PER aside from me?"

And he teamed up with that guy - Wade was #2 in everything - PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP.

That's like Magic teaming up with Bird or Kobe with Tmac, aka UNPRECEDENTED






Maybe you could have Wade at 7 over Harden all-time and maybe you could rank Bosh ahead of Manu and Westbrook...people are way to hyped about that Heat team






Pre-Lebron

2010 Wade..... 28 PER... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe...... 21 PER... 4.4 BPM

Bosh............... 6x all-star
Pau ................ 1x all-star


So Lebron teamed up with Kobe-Pau II, but went 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do.

[red1]

this retard has kawhi in a top-10 list of all-time nba players


3ball you're literally mentally ill my guy

[3ba11]

this retard has kawhi in a top-10 list of all-time nba players


3ball you're literally mentally ill my guy


Kawhi's 2019 run with Lowry defeated Embiid/Butler/Simmons all on the same team and then ragdolled Giannis and the Curry Warriors - that's a far better run with a non-super-team than Lebron's super-team rings against trash East

Then he also destroyed Lebron in the last 3 games of the 14' Finals. He's a better 2-way player that knows how to win (brand of ball, chemistry, organic), while Lebron has horrific chemistry and is a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy)

[red1]

Kawhi's 2019 run with Lowry defeated Embiid/Butler/Simmons all on the same team and then ragdolled Giannis and the Curry Warriors - that's a far better run with a non-super-team than Lebron's super-team rings against trash East

I enjoy educating you my dude. You said lebron would never win a non superteam ring meanwhile he is literally the GOAT game 7 performer and the only finals MVP over a 70-win team.

a lebron james team is never desperate

https://assets-cms.thescore.com/uploads/image/file/185635/w640xh480_CkxtiagUgAA3D09.jpg

[red1]

down 3-1 in the finals my guy is just chilling wearing an undertaker back from the dead tshirt :roll:

[3ba11]

down 3-1 in the finals my guy is just chilling wearing an undertaker back from the dead tshirt :roll:


Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals)

Whenever he had to carry the scoring load against a #1 SRS team, he wet the bed Durant-style like the 08' ECSF (26 on 35%), or the 07' Finals, or the 14' Finals (28/4)

[red1]

Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals)

Whenever he had to carry the scoring load against a #1 SRS team, he wet the bed Durant-style like the 08' ECSF (26 on 35%), or the 07' Finals, or the 14' Finals (28/4)

you aint got shit dude. that finals run in 2016 must really hurt the soul of a dedicated lifelong hater like you.


what a godly game 7 finals performance against the spurs as well. this shit is just iconic.


https://wp.usatodaysports.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/90/2013/06/lebron31.gif

[SpaceJam]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Bird
4. Russell
5. Curry
6. Dirk
7. Duncan
8. Kawhi
9. Hakeem
10. Giannis


CRITERIA

1. No one that planned their destination is allowed - no one that learned how to team-hop - only guys that learned how to WIN (organic)

2. Guys that won without equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention (no 1b's) are highly-valued in the rankings, since that represents 1-man team defensive coverage, aka carry-jobs

3. No 1-dimensional centers or ball-dominators, since they need super-team help and have weaker team ceilings/Finals records (Russell would be a PF in most eras, while Hakeem was all-world skill and could play any position like Giannis)

Make it make sense

[John8204]

In 2010, Lebron asked the NBA:

"Who has the highest PER aside from me?"

And he teamed up with that guy - Wade was #2 in everything - PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP.

That's like Magic teaming up with Bird or Kobe with Tmac, aka UNPRECEDENTED







Pre-Lebron

2010 Wade..... 28 PER... 9.2 BPM
2010 Kobe...... 21 PER... 4.4 BPM

Bosh............... 6x all-star
Pau ................ 1x all-star


So Lebron teamed up with Kobe-Pau II, but went 2/4 including the goat choke and record loss - that's the worst anyone can do.

Wade -
Points 23,165 (22.0 ppg)
Rebounds 4,933 (4.7 rpg)
Assists 5,701 (5.4 apg)

Harden -
Points - 23,477
Rebounds - 5,294
Assists - 6,397

Using "advanced" metrics is fine but Harden has already surpassed Wade in Pt's, Rebounds, Assists, and MVP's

Bosh might have been a 6 time all-star in the East...but remember Gasol had to get selected over KG, Duncan, Carmello, and Dirk

[Phoenix]

Wade -
Points 23,165 (22.0 ppg)
Rebounds 4,933 (4.7 rpg)
Assists 5,701 (5.4 apg)

Harden -
Points - 23,477
Rebounds - 5,294
Assists - 6,397

Using "advanced" metrics is fine but Harden has already surpassed Wade in Pt's, Rebounds, Assists, and MVP's

Bosh might have been a 6 time all-star in the East...but remember Gasol had to get selected over KG, Duncan, Carmello, and Dirk

Western forward all-stars 2006-2010( bolded are starters)

2006: Tmac,Duncan,Marion,Brand,Garnett, Dirk, Gasol
2007: Dirk, KG, Duncan, Melo, Marion, Amare, Josh Howard, Okur
2008: Duncan, Melo,Dirk, Amare, Boozer, West
2009: Amare, Duncan,Gasol, West, Dirk
2010: Melo,Dirk, Amare,Duncan,Gasol, Randolph,Kama, Durant( was Kobe injured for this game, don't recall but he's not listed on b-ball ref :confusedshrug:)

At best it's a toss-up a few of those years with someone like Marion, Boozer, West. 2007 he'd probably get in over Howard or Okur, 2010 over Kaman. Likely best case is 3 all-star nods those years.

[John8204]

Eastern
2006 - Lebron, Oneal, Pierce, R. Wallace, Bosh
2007 - Lebron, Bosh, Burler, O'Neal
2008 - Lebron, KG, Butler, Bosh, Jamison, Pierce
2009 - Lebron, KG, Bosh, Pierce, Granger, Lewis
2010 - Lebron, KG, Pierce, Bosh, G. Wallace, Horford
2011 - Lebron, Stoudamire, KG, Pierce, Bosh
2012 - Lebron, Carmello, Pierce, Bosh, Iguodala, Deng,
2013 - Lebron, Carmello, Deng, Bosh, George
2014 - Lebron, Carmello, George, Millsap, Bosh

It's pretty telling that guys would jump from the West to the East and get that second forward spot

[Shooter]

https://i.postimg.cc/MTVvVFZY/No-One-cares.gif

[Gohan]

list has no credibility, no iverson no credibility

[3ba11]

.
Aging well


https://c.tenor.com/86DqqMXeVRMAAAAM/nod-yes.gif

[3ba11]

3ball is the first guy that had him top 10 or top 5... :pimp:

[kawhileonard2]

Top 5 movies of the 90’s, I’d prob go

GoodFellas
Pulp Fiction
Reservoir Dogs
Fargo
The Matrix

HM: Casino, American History X

Nothing tops Titanic if we are being honest.

[Phoenix]

3ball is the first guy that had him top 10 or top 5... :pimp:

You're also the first to say he's the most overrated player ever. You look like a complete retard pendulum-swinging this hard the other direction, not enlightened, not ahead of the curve. Just retarded.... and should have the ability to walk around freely, along with access to the internet and a keyboard, permanently revoked.

[3ba11]

People laughed at Curry being top 5

Now that he's carried Wiggins to a title and defeated maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in Finals), he's won a tougher ring than almost anyone

[Phoenix]

3ball is Jeff.

[Shooter]

You're also the first to say he's the most overrated player ever. You look like a complete retard pendulum-swinging this hard the other direction, not enlightened, not ahead of the curve. Just retarded.... and should have the ability to walk around freely, along with access to the internet and a keyboard, permanently revoked.

:roll:

[Axe]

People laughed at Curry being top 5

Now that he's carried Wiggins to a title and defeated maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in Finals), he's won a tougher ring than almost anyone
Just like when shaq carried kobe to the 2000 finals? Amusing.

[GrayGoat]

Op had wilt in 2nd up until last year