Lowest reasonable rank for LeBron

[MadDog]

Another forum is doing this with most of the top 10. Since "dankok" is making an ALL TIME project might as well ask. :confusedshrug: Would say the lowest reasonable rank would have to be mid top 10. 7ish maybe. Not a fan of LeBron's intangibles or deck stacking, but he's still a GOAT-tier athlete with a savvy basketball acumen.

[SaintzFury13]

I feel like any ranking system that has LeBron outside the top 5 is a laughable excuse for a list.

[ELITEpower23]

1st in every imaginable stat, second most finals mvps, and the goat chip. He's easily top 2 or the list is trash.


https://i.postimg.cc/kGSrjPvJ/LeBron_James_Dominates.png


https://i.postimg.cc/8c8k2yTQ/7631_Forever_Goat.png


https://i.postimg.cc/WzqNqNKR/LBJ_Top_Producer.png



https://i.postimg.cc/VLzymXKB/q23y4-RX6033-XzwLQ-5549-B19-Jx32.png


Uh, you tell me :oldlol:

[MadDog]

No troll posts bruh. Keep it real....if you're even capable of that.


I feel like any ranking system that has LeBron outside the top 5 is a laughable excuse for a list.

Idk about laughable however the argument would have to kickass. I have him around 5 but prefer TIER placement.

[ELITEpower23]

Idk about laughable however the argument would have to kickass. I have him around 5 but prefer TIER placement.

If LeBron is five then the list is flawed and thus laughable to begin with. MJ doesn't even have a solid case over LeBron and after them it gets very distant for 3rd.

[SaintzFury13]

Idk about laughable however the argument would have to kickass. I have him around 5 but prefer TIER placement.

There is no argument out there that exists that can justifiably place LeBron outside the top 5.

[90sgoat]

I'm not putting Lebron above Hakeem.

No way.

That means it depends on where you rank Hakeem.

[MadDog]

There is no argument out there that exists that can justifiably place LeBron outside the top 5.

Well its all subjective. Trolls and idiots aside, though, 5 is probably the lowest you're going to see LeBron. Would like to hear from RRR3, Manny and other LeBron fans.


I'm not putting Lebron above Hakeem.

No way.

That means it depends on where you rank Hakeem.

Where do you put Hakeem? :confusedshrug:

[coastalmarker99]

It's funny to think that.


If a combined total of two minutes in 2013 and 2016 hadn't unfolded in Lebron's favour, out of the roughly 55,000 in his career, you're looking at an entirely different legacy for him.


Lebron loses two championship rings and would be nowadays sitting on a 2 and 8 finals record and as a result, the comparison between him and Jordan would be pretty much over.

[90sgoat]

Well its all subjective. Trolls and idiots aside, though, 5 is probably the lowest you're going to see LeBron. Would like to hear from RRR3, Manny and other LeBron fans.



Where do you put Hakeem? :confusedshrug:

10th or so.

MJ
Bird
Kareem
Russel
Magic
Kobe
Shaq
Wilt
Duncan
Hakeem

[ELITEpower23]

I'm not putting Lebron above Hakeem.

No way.

That means it depends on where you rank Hakeem.


Riiiight. And I'm not putting Jordan above Bird

No way.

That means it depends on where you rank Bird.


https://i.postimg.cc/W4zRyF8H/MJ-0-for-6-Failure-100-failure.png

[SaintzFury13]

10th or so.

MJ
Bird
Kareem
Russel
Magic
Kobe
Shaq
Wilt
Duncan
Hakeem

So you refuse to put LeBron ahead of Hakeem but have no problem putting Kobe ahead of him?

[Manny98]

The Absolute lowest I can see him reasonably be ranked is 11th depending on your personal criteria

Personally I have him top 3

[RRR3]

The Absolute lowest I can see him reasonably be ranked is 11th depending on your personal criteria

Personally I have him top 3
11th isn’t reasonable. Maybe if you’re on meth.

[Airupthere]

10-11 should not be an insult and would still be reasonable for Lebron. Deconvolute everything, we know he statpadded through bronballing and colluded. We know he is not a true competitor and quits when the going gets tough.

[90sgoat]

Riiiight. And I'm not putting Jordan above Bird

No way.

That means it depends on where you rank Bird.


I'm ok with putting Bird above Jordan.

[90sgoat]

So you refuse to put LeBron ahead of Hakeem but have no problem putting Kobe ahead of him?

Yes, I think looking back, Kobe had a greater run than Lebron and a more consistent and larger impact than Hakeem.

[Full Court]

Riiiight. And I'm not putting Jordan above Bird

No way.

That means it depends on where you rank Bird.


https://i.postimg.cc/W4zRyF8H/MJ-0-for-6-Failure-100-failure.png

I have Bird above Lebron. And KAJ. And Wilt and Russel. Of course, MJ is at the top, so Lebron is not top 5.

But to answer the OP as far as the lowest reasonable rank, 7 is probably about the right answer.

[Manny98]

11th isn’t reasonable. Maybe if you’re on meth.
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem

All of these guys have CASES over LeBron, not all strong cases but depending on your criteria like how much you value staying in one team or if you think today's era isn't as good as previous eras, or how much you value certain skills, a case can be made for the players above

[MadDog]

10th or so.

MJ
Bird
Kareem
Russel
Magic
Kobe
Shaq
Wilt
Duncan
Hakeem

Interesting list. What is your argument for leaving LeBron outside the 10? His accolades and career resume already lineup with the top echelon. His overall game was also better than a few of those guys you mentioned. Like, its hard to ignore the impact data placing him beside MJ\Kareem\Duncan\Shaq\Magic.

[RRR3]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem

All of these guys have CASES over LeBron, not all strong cases but depending on your criteria like how much you value staying in one team or if you think today's era isn't as good as previous eras, or how much you value certain skills, a case can be made for the players above
:oldlol:

[Gohan]

If LeBron is five then the list is flawed and thus laughable to begin with. MJ doesn't even have a solid case over LeBron and after them it gets very distant for 3rd.


Mj doesnt have a case over lebron? Then lebron has no case over iverson, thats how retardrd you sound. Have you been hanging out at warriorfan crib?

[MadDog]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Shaq
Hakeem

All of these guys have CASES over LeBron, not all strong cases but depending on your criteria like how much you value staying in one team or if you think today's era isn't as good as previous eras, or how much you value certain skills, a case can be made for the players above

Thanks for sharing bruh. Which criteria would be reasonable though? All of them? :confusedshrug: LeBron's numbers, impact and career achievements are absolutely top 10 worthy. And really mid top 10 ish. Portability is something I hear often, but most teams would get better with LeBron since he can fill the majority of positions. Yea sure he might be a ball dominator, or reluctant to sacrifice numbers, but in most systems he would fit.

[SaintzFury13]

Yes, I think looking back, Kobe had a greater run than Lebron and a more consistent and larger impact than Hakeem.

I guess George Mikan is the GOAT if we're going off of these reasons.

[RRR3]

I guess George Mikan is the GOAT if we're going off of these reasons.
He’s a troll and a racist one at that. Ignore.

[Axe]

Top 5 is the most rational in him being ranked least that i could see. Unfortunately, there are people who think that he's just a 'honda civic' compared to jordan's 'lamborghini' when kong himself could have been a dodge viper or honda nsx in that said analogy instead.

[Manny98]

Thanks for sharing bruh. Which criteria would be reasonable though? All of them? :confusedshrug: LeBron's numbers, impact and career achievements are absolutely top 10 worthy. And really mid top 10 ish. Portability is something I hear often, but most teams would get better with LeBron since he can fill the majority of positions. Yea sure he might be a ball dominator, or reluctant to sacrifice numbers, but in most systems he would fit.


I feel like players have to adjust to playing with LeBron more so than players have to adjust to playing with any player in the top 10, he requires shooters and floor spacing and is probably the weakest at playing without the ball out of everyone in the top 10

Also I could see a lot of posters ranking LeBron lower due to the decision and his general tendency to quit when the going gets tough.

[RRR3]

I feel like players have to adjust to playing with LeBron more so than players have to adjust to playing with any player in the top 10, he requires shooters and floor spacing and is probably the weakest at playing without the ball out of everyone in the top 10

Also I could see a lot of posters ranking LeBron lower due to the decision and his general tendency to quit when the going gets tough.
If he requires shooters and spacing how did he win in 2020? You’re really bad at trolling.

[3ba11]

Real ballers know - MJ, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Duncan - all these guys have more rings with comparable dominance (everyone dominates in different ways, so it's subjective and therefore the results, aka rings tell the story).

Oh, and Russell.

And KD superceded Lebron's super-teams with his own and outplayed Lebron H2H... So you could throw him in there.. That's 10 guys, so Lebron is outside the top 10. and #11

That's the lowest possible rank for mainstream fans.. For more knowledgeable fans, Lebron is knocked for the many skill deficits he has including non-elite jumpshooting skill, lack of assisted skillset/ball movement/high assist teams, and ultimately his Westbrook brand of basketball (ball-dominance, aka triple-doubles) - these things limit teammate role, team strategy, and ultimately team ceiling.. This is the case for any ball-dominator, so I have Lebron outside the top 15 and borderline top 20 behind guys like Dirk, Kawhi, Giannis and more.

[Gohan]

If he requires shooters and spacing how did he win in 2020? You’re really bad at trolling.

Miami would of beat fakers if it wasnt for the dragic and bam injury

[Manny98]

If he requires shooters and spacing how did he win in 2020? You’re really bad at trolling.
He had great spacing in 2020 when they went smaller with AD at the 5
.
Lakers struggled offensively when McGee and Dwight were at the 5

[RRR3]

He had great spacing in 2020 when they went smaller with AD at the 5
.
Lakers struggled offensively when McGee and Dwight were at the 5
Rondo/Caruso, KCP, Kuzma, Morris and AD wow what spacing :yaohappy:


KCP is literally the only good shooter there.

[SaintzFury13]

I feel like players have to adjust to playing with LeBron more so than players have to adjust to playing with any player in the top 10, he requires shooters and floor spacing and is probably the weakest at playing without the ball out of everyone in the top 10

Also I could see a lot of posters ranking LeBron lower due to the decision and his general tendency to quit when the going gets tough.

I'm really not getting where this "quit when the going gets tough" nonsense comes from. He's one of the all time greatest game 7 players in the history of the NBA and when down 3-1 in 2016, he had back to back 41 point performances and a triple double in game 7. I feel like this is a made up narrative by people who think what happened in 2010 (and even then I don't think he quit at all) and 2011 (where he was simply locked down by Dallas) happened on a regular basis, which is simply not true.


Rondo/Caruso, KCP, Kuzma, Morris and AD wow what spacing :yaohappy:


KCP is literally the only good shooter there.

They also had Danny Green, although he wasn't half the shooter he was in San Antonio.

[SaintzFury13]

Real ballers know - MJ, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Duncan - all these guys have more rings with comparable dominance (everyone dominates in different ways, so it's subjective and therefore the results, aka rings tell the story).

Oh, and Russell.

And KD superceded Lebron's super-teams with his own and outplayed Lebron H2H... So you could throw him in there.. That's 10 guys, so Lebron is outside the top 10. and #11

That's the lowest possible rank for mainstream fans.. For more knowledgeable fans, Lebron is knocked for the many skill deficits he has including non-elite jumpshooting skill, lack of assisted skillset/ball movement/high assist teams, and ultimately his Westbrook brand of basketball (ball-dominance, aka triple-doubles) - these things limit teammate role, team strategy, and ultimately team ceiling.. This is the case for any ball-dominator, so I have Lebron outside the top 15 and borderline top 20 behind guys like Dirk, Kawhi, Giannis and more.

A knowledgeable fan watches the games, so you don't fall under that criteria.

[Axe]

I'm really not getting where this "quit when the going gets tough" nonsense comes from. He's one of the all time greatest game 7 players in the history of the NBA and when down 3-1 in 2016, he had back to back 41 point performances and a triple double in game 7. I feel like this is a made up narrative by people who think what happened in 2010 (and even then I don't think he quit at all) and 2011 (where he was simply locked down by Dallas) happened on a regular basis, which is simply not true.



They also had Danny Green, although he wasn't half the shooter he was in San Antonio.
Yea but while that's true, you also have to acknowledge that most of the teammates he played with back then are scrubs. So it's only natural that with the way he performed, he's the ultimate carrying machine that people have ever seen during that year. But if he had a handful number of all-star calibre teammates like curry did with the warriors, the disparity between him and them in their capabilities wouldn't be that huge tbh.

[90sgoat]

Interesting list. What is your argument for leaving LeBron outside the 10? His accolades and career resume already lineup with the top echelon. His overall game was also better than a few of those guys you mentioned. Like, its hard to ignore the impact data placing him beside MJ\Kareem\Duncan\Shaq\Magic.

I want to compare players across different eras and career lengths.

Can't do that if we give points for longevity alone.

My main criteria is the eye test, was this player someone who was so obviously superior in "skill"?

Second, I would look at if the eye test was proven by a peak, this would be 5 years or so.

Judging Lebron he fails the eye test. His skill used to be almost exclusively based on athleticism (though he improved) and his peak was underwhelming with something like 2 rings out of 5 possible in Miami and Cavs.

I just think Hakeem or Kobe or Duncan all have more impressive peaks, more impressive skills.

I consider Charles Barkley better than KG and Malone for the same reason.

[Gohan]

I want to compare players across different eras and career lengths.

Can't do that if we give points for longevity alone.

My main criteria is the eye test, was this player someone who was so obviously superior in "skill"?

Second, I would look at if the eye test was proven by a peak, this would be 5 years or so.

Judging Lebron he fails the eye test. His skill used to be almost exclusively based on athleticism (though he improved) and his peak was underwhelming with something like 2 rings out of 5 possible in Miami and Cavs.

I just think Hakeem or Kobe or Duncan all have more impressive peaks, more impressive skills.

I consider Charles Barkley better than KG and Malone for the same reason.

Agree with this post

[ELITEpower23]

1st in every imaginable stat, second most finals mvps, and the goat chip. He's easily top 2 or the list is trash.


https://i.postimg.cc/kGSrjPvJ/LeBron_James_Dominates.png


https://i.postimg.cc/8c8k2yTQ/7631_Forever_Goat.png


https://i.postimg.cc/WzqNqNKR/LBJ_Top_Producer.png



https://i.postimg.cc/VLzymXKB/q23y4-RX6033-XzwLQ-5549-B19-Jx32.png


3ball/90s goat?

[Axe]

1st in every imaginable stat, second most finals mvps, and the goat chip. He's easily top 2 or the list is trash.


https://i.postimg.cc/kGSrjPvJ/LeBron_James_Dominates.png


https://i.postimg.cc/8c8k2yTQ/7631_Forever_Goat.png


https://i.postimg.cc/WzqNqNKR/LBJ_Top_Producer.png



https://i.postimg.cc/VLzymXKB/q23y4-RX6033-XzwLQ-5549-B19-Jx32.png


3ball/90s goat?
Stephen curry is nowhere to be found in those lists. I wonder why. :ohwell:

[Full Court]

I feel like players have to adjust to playing with LeBron more so than players have to adjust to playing with any player in the top 10, he requires shooters and floor spacing and is probably the weakest at playing without the ball out of everyone in the top 10

Also I could see a lot of posters ranking LeBron lower due to the decision and his general tendency to quit when the going gets tough.

This is a spot on and intelligent post.

[8Ball]

Another forum is doing this with most of the top 10. Since "dankok" is making an ALL TIME project might as well ask. :confusedshrug: Would say the lowest reasonable rank would have to be mid top 10. 7ish maybe. Not a fan of LeBron's intangibles or deck stacking, but he's still a GOAT-tier athlete with a savvy basketball acumen.

Top 2 all time.

Below top 1 is pretty unreasonable as it is.

[ELITEpower23]

Stephen curry is nowhere to be found in those lists. I wonder why. :ohwell:

And of course the MJ stains go silent with no rebuttal, tails tucked between their legs like always.

https://i.postimg.cc/mkMF4gPH/Elite_Company,_Top_5_goats.png



https://i.postimg.cc/Jzk9jw9z/LeGiannis_LeButler_LeBron.png



https://i.postimg.cc/1XYkLCH7/The_Gold_Standard_King_James.png



https://i.postimg.cc/mkT5BzGC/LeQUATRO_passes_all.png

[8Ball]

I want to compare players across different eras and career lengths.

Can't do that if we give points for longevity alone.

My main criteria is the eye test, was this player someone who was so obviously superior in "skill"?

Second, I would look at if the eye test was proven by a peak, this would be 5 years or so.

Judging Lebron he fails the eye test. His skill used to be almost exclusively based on athleticism (though he improved) and his peak was underwhelming with something like 2 rings out of 5 possible in Miami and Cavs.

I just think Hakeem or Kobe or Duncan all have more impressive peaks, more impressive skills.

I consider Charles Barkley better than KG and Malone for the same reason.

Kobe?

Your entire post is automatically disqualified.

Name me 1 great Kobe finals game. I want to see where he peaked.

Not scoring 40 ppg in regular season. I want to see the finals game where he peaked. Name it.

[8Ball]

Yes, I think looking back, Kobe had a greater run than Lebron and a more consistent and larger impact than Hakeem.

Greater run?

What run?

What finals series was Kobe clear cut better than Bron's 3rd best finals series?

This is actually totally horseshit.

I didn't think you were such a awful poster 90sgoat but the idiots can't hide it for long.

[8Ball]

He had great spacing in 2020 when they went smaller with AD at the 5
.
Lakers struggled offensively when McGee and Dwight were at the 5

Struggled so hard they steam rolled the entire playoffs playing McGee and Dwight at the 5 until last game of playoffs.

Struggled offensively so hard they were never down in any playoff series.

"Struggled".

While they didn't run their best offensive lineup with dwight and Mcgee, they made life hell for other team to score.

[ELITEpower23]

Walked in with my responses like

https://media.giphy.com/media/vRf4Z1OZ21j9e/giphy.gif



Had the MJ fan bois like

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oFzm0o2jMKftsaBoc/giphy.gif




Had them SILENT very quickly. I appreciate acceptance and obedience.

https://media.giphy.com/media/49M0YGdMjt0Pu/giphy.gif

[deathawaitu]

The general consensus in the real world has Lebron ranked 9-15

Minority of the fan base sucking off lebron on forum and analysis just cry the loudest

[RRR3]

I'm really not getting where this "quit when the going gets tough" nonsense comes from. He's one of the all time greatest game 7 players in the history of the NBA and when down 3-1 in 2016, he had back to back 41 point performances and a triple double in game 7. I feel like this is a made up narrative by people who think what happened in 2010 (and even then I don't think he quit at all) and 2011 (where he was simply locked down by Dallas) happened on a regular basis, which is simply not true.



They also had Danny Green, although he wasn't half the shooter he was in San Antonio.
Sure but no sane person would claim that team had good spacing. Even as a LeBron fan I was surprised at how little he was effected by the shitty spacing. Shows you how narratives from LeBron haters are almost always bullshit. Basically the “argument” now would be well LeBron couldn’t win if he literally had 1980s spacing and everyone else still had 2020s spacing but I’m not really sure what that proves. The 2020 Lakers were without a doubt near the bottom in terms of spacing.

[jlip]

5th

[Lebron23]

Another forum is doing this with most of the top 10. Since "dankok" is making an ALL TIME project might as well ask. :confusedshrug: Would say the lowest reasonable rank would have to be mid top 10. 7ish maybe. Not a fan of LeBron's intangibles or deck stacking, but he's still a GOAT-tier athlete with a savvy basketball acumen.

You are just a f*cking hater. 4 MVP 4 finals MVP. All time leading scorer in the playoffs, most all NBA teams in NBA history. And by the end of his career all time leading scorer in the regular season.

[Lebron23]

The general consensus in the real world has Lebron ranked 9-15

Minority of the fan base sucking off lebron on forum and analysis just cry the loudest

No chance in hell that Kobe, shaq and Duncan are better than LeBron.

[dbugz]

with all the help, I'll give him the 11th and that being considerable.

[Rysio]

If you value rings the most I guess he can be outside top 5 since all his rings were on some super teams but so was kareems and a lot of people have him as goat.

[SATAN]

Not ranking LeBron #1 is unreasonable.

[Bankaii]

If you value rings the most I guess he can be outside top 5 since all his rings were on some super teams but so was kareems and a lot of people have him as goat.
MJ and Kobe had at worst top 3 supporting casts every year they won.
Magic/Bird/Kareem/Russell played on super teams.
Shaq/Duncan/Wilt had tremendous help throughout their entire careers.

This bs notion that only Lebron has had help in insane.

[Thenameless]

I just think Hakeem or Kobe or Duncan all have more impressive peaks, more impressive skills.

I consider Charles Barkley better than KG and Malone for the same reason.

I can agree with Olajuwon and Duncan having more impressive peaks, but not Kobe. And I'm a Laker fan. Kobe is nothing more than an inefficient volume shooter. And yes, I can see a case for Barkley over Garnett and Malone.

[dankok8]

There are a lot of different ways of looking at the game. I've seen Russell not ranked in the top 10. Thus I guess I can see Lebron not being ranked in the top 10. It's weird to me but people have their ways. Some people will be like "Collusion disqualifies a player." and there is really not response to that. It's their opinion and that's that.

[CountDracula]

Durant and Giannis will eventually force Lebron out of the top ten, plus Joe Ingles highest ppg is 12.1! While Hornacek’s is 20.1ppg! Rest easy Prince James!

https://i.ibb.co/fFybCXR/378-AA17-C-A5-E5-4-A6-E-B38-A-0021-D9-FC87-FB.jpg (https://ibb.co/KhfY95Z)

https://i.ibb.co/99FYsXS/African-American-man-60s-in-wheelchair-holding-hand-weights-ready-for-physical-therapy-session.jpg (https://ibb.co/tM7C8fF)

https://i.ibb.co/TM2FqjB/60-C4538-F-74-A6-4192-AF82-D16601-FE83-FA.gif (https://imgbb.com/)

[Cyrus334]

Walked in with my responses like

https://media.giphy.com/media/vRf4Z1OZ21j9e/giphy.gif



Had the MJ fan bois like

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oFzm0o2jMKftsaBoc/giphy.gif




Had them SILENT very quickly. I appreciate acceptance and obedience.

https://media.giphy.com/media/49M0YGdMjt0Pu/giphy.gif

This topic is about Lebron and yet every post you've made is about slandering MJ lol.

[Manny98]

Rondo/Caruso, KCP, Kuzma, Morris and AD wow what spacing :yaohappy:


KCP is literally the only good shooter there.


https://youtu.be/lywD6i2VSM0

After that they played AD and Morris at the 5 a lot more to give LeBron spacing

[Manny98]

Top 2 all time.

Below top 1 is pretty unreasonable as it is.
Get your head out of his ass for once in your life jesus

[Manny98]

Struggled so hard they steam rolled the entire playoffs playing McGee and Dwight at the 5 until last game of playoffs.

Struggled offensively so hard they were never down in any playoff series.

"Struggled".

While they didn't run their best offensive lineup with dwight and Mcgee, they made life hell for other team to score.

McGee and Dwight were literally unplayable against the rockets and McGee didn't play against the Nuggets at all

So yes the Lakers struggled offensively until the went with a smaller lineup that provided more spacing

[Manny98]

I'm really not getting where this "quit when the going gets tough" nonsense comes from. He's one of the all time greatest game 7 players in the history of the NBA and when down 3-1 in 2016, he had back to back 41 point performances and a triple double in game 7. I feel like this is a made up narrative by people who think what happened in 2010 (and even then I don't think he quit at all) and 2011 (where he was simply locked down by Dallas) happened on a regular basis, which is simply not true.

.
You know damn well he quit in 2010

Quit in 2014

Checked out after game 1 if the 2018 finals

Quit on his team in this playoffs as well

2016 doesn't just dismiss the amount of times LeBron has quit on his team

[NBAGOAT]

I will say outside top 4 is getting unreasonable

[Spurs m8]

Get your head out of his ass for once in your life jesus

They don't call him 8owling 8ball for nothing

Not very sharp

[8Ball]

They don't call him 8owling 8ball for nothing

Not very sharp

I am smarter than you.

You beg for money every 2 weeks from your employer.

I semi retired by 30.

You will never be as smart as I am.

Go **** yourself you piece of shit. Challenge me and I will wreck you like I did you friend dabigsalshisha.

[8Ball]

You know damn well he quit in 2010

Quit in 2014

Checked out after game 1 if the 2018 finals

Quit on his team in this playoffs as well

2016 doesn't just dismiss the amount of times LeBron has quit on his team


18 year old kid here manny was a 10 year old while watching these games.

Having a bad game to you means quitting.

Never quit ever.

[8Ball]

McGee and Dwight were literally unplayable against the rockets and McGee didn't play against the Nuggets at all

So yes the Lakers struggled offensively until the went with a smaller lineup that provided more spacing

Lakers struggled so much with Dwight they started him vs Denver and he helped neutralized Joker.

You don't even watch games Manny.

You have a 3ball level narrative and just stick with it.

[8Ball]

Get your head out of his ass for once in your life jesus

Top 2 all time is unreasonable? Get your head out of your teenager ass for once in your life.

[8Ball]

The general consensus in the real world has Lebron ranked 9-15

Minority of the fan base sucking off lebron on forum and analysis just cry the loudest

You are a ****ing idiot.

Nobody in real world you talk to but the dog you stick your dick in thinks LeBron is ranked 9-15.

[8Ball]

with all the help, I'll give him the 11th and that being considerable.

How do you feel about Rondo enjoying being a Laker with Bron more than he ever did as a Celtic :lol

[Manny98]

Lakers struggled so much with Dwight they started him vs Denver and he helped neutralized Joker.

You don't even watch games Manny.

You have a 3ball level narrative and just stick with it.
You clearly didn't read what I said or you did and chose to be ignorant

[Manny98]

Top 2 all time is unreasonable? Get your head out of your teenager ass for once in your life.
You said having him below top 1 is unreasonable

[8Ball]

If you value rings the most I guess he can be outside top 5 since all his rings were on some super teams but so was kareems and a lot of people have him as goat.

Another low IQ poster here.

Russell had the biggest super team.
Jordan had the only super team in the 90s.
Magic was gifted a super team day 1.
Tim Duncan always had a super team in the 2000s with Manu and Parker and then Kawhi.
Kareem had superteams.


This thread brought out the most retard posters on this forum like yourself.

[8Ball]

He had great spacing in 2020 when they went smaller with AD at the 5
.
Lakers struggled offensively when McGee and Dwight were at the 5

Here is your idiot post.

All modern NBA teams have offensive struggles when playing a non shooting 5.

But Lakers kept playing a non shooting 5 most of the playoff games to crush the other team defensively.


You don't understand that concept since you are low IQ anti vaxxer.

[Manny98]

Here is your idiot post.

All modern NBA teams have offensive struggles when playing a non shooting 5.

But Lakers kept playing a non shooting 5 most of the playoff games to crush the other team defensively.


You don't understand that concept since you are low IQ anti vaxxer.
The best offense in NBA history had a non shooting 5

LeBron needs shooters to spot up more so than any player in the top 10

It's always a fit issue with LeBron, see Westbrook,Wade

Love,AD and Bosh had to change their games to accommodate to LeBrons play style that Is a fact

[RRR3]

https://youtu.be/lywD6i2VSM0

After that they played AD and Morris at the 5 a lot more to give LeBron spacing
How dare LeBron not get frustrated playing with significant worse spacing than every other modern team lol. LeBron has to play with a handicap or manpee98 will say he needs shooters :yaohappy:

Btw Durant pooped his pants in overtime in game 7

[Manny98]

How dare LeBron not get frustrated playing with significant worse spacing than every other modern team lol. LeBron has to play with a handicap or manpee98 will say he needs shooters :yaohappy:

Btw Durant pooped his pants in overtime in game 7
Durant played with the worst spacing ever for 2/3 of his career

Westbrook
Sefolasha
Ibaka
Perkins

Westbrook
Andre Roberson
Ibaka
Steven Adams

Imagine LeBron having to play with such terrible spacing for the first 10 years of his career:lol

He would have probably turned Kendrick Perkins into a spot up shooter :roll:

[RRR3]

Durant played with the worst spacing ever for 2/3 of his career

Westbrook
Sefolasha
Ibaka
Perkins

Westbrook
Andre Roberson
Ibaka
Steven Adams

Imagine LeBron having to play with such terrible spacing for the first 10 years of his career:lol

He would have probably turned Kendrick Perkins into a spot up shooter :roll:
Like how you’re forgetting LeBron played with two centers in Cleveland a lot from 03-10 lol. Tell us where Giannis bullying Durant hurt you.

[Manny98]

Like how you’re forgetting LeBron played with two centers in Cleveland a lot from 03-10 lol. Tell us where Giannis bullying Durant hurt you.
Big Z was a stretch 5

[Phoenix]

Real ballers know - MJ, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Duncan - all these guys have more rings with comparable dominance (everyone dominates in different ways, so it's subjective and therefore the results, aka rings tell the story).

Oh, and Russell.



Interesting, considering you use Russell playing in '2 point basketball' era as a means to disqualify him from the GOAT discussion or at the least a reason to say he couldn't possibly be ranked above MJ, but ( unsurprisingly) it's not a barrier for you ranking him above Lebron. Kareem himself was at his most dominant before the 3 pointer became a thing.

[RRR3]

Big Z was a stretch 5
He made 31 3s in his career. Why are you a pathological liar?

[deathawaitu]

No chance in hell that Kobe, shaq and Duncan are better than LeBron.

Hate to break it to you kid

But majority of the fan base has those 3 easily ahead of Lebron

All their rings and career are more impressive and harder than Lebron

[deathawaitu]

I am smarter than you.

You beg for money every 2 weeks from your employer.

I semi retired by 30.

You will never be as smart as I am.

Go **** yourself you piece of shit. Challenge me and I will wreck you like I did you friend dabigsalshisha.

Spur 8mate just owned this kid

8ball go back flipping your burger boy :roll:

There is a reason why you are a dumb ******

[GOBB]

Someone picked Bill Russell with a straight face over Lebron. Jesus that’s cringe if I ever saw it.

Bron at 5 is the most reasonable rank. You can’t even bullshyt a post beyond that.

[Manny98]

He made 31 3s in his career. Why are you a pathological liar?
Did you ever watch him play?

Most of his points came from the mid range and pick and pop with LeBron

[nayte]

Yeah close .5 at the worst imo .the rest is what opinions u have for goat

[Phoenix]

If you're top 5 then you should have a credible case for being #1 IMO, because at that level we're nitpicking.

[ELITEpower23]

LeBron is first in every imaginable stat, has the second most finals mvps, and holds the goat chip. He's easily top 2 or the list is trash.


https://i.postimg.cc/kGSrjPvJ/LeBron_James_Dominates.png


https://i.postimg.cc/8c8k2yTQ/7631_Forever_Goat.png


https://i.postimg.cc/WzqNqNKR/LBJ_Top_Producer.png



https://i.postimg.cc/VLzymXKB/q23y4-RX6033-XzwLQ-5549-B19-Jx32.png

Is it done then?

[LeCola]

10

[8Ball]

Spur 8mate just owned this kid

8ball go back flipping your burger boy :roll:

There is a reason why you are a dumb ******

Who the **** are you?

I have a nicer place than you will ever live in your life.

Here it is:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495139-8balless-the-biggest-fraud-in-the-history-of-i-h/page2


Now go **** yourself you stupid piece of rotten shit. I take shits more valuable than your life.

[RRR3]

If you're top 5 then you should have a credible case for being #1 IMO, because at that level we're nitpicking.
Yeah well LeBron does have a credible case for 1

[8Ball]

Like how you’re forgetting LeBron played with two centers in Cleveland a lot from 03-10 lol. Tell us where Giannis bullying Durant hurt you.


Big Z was a stretch 5

"Big Z was a stretch 5"

https://c.tenor.com/8jlC25Qb-jEAAAAM/spiderman-funny.gif

[RRR3]

"Big Z was a stretch 5"

https://c.tenor.com/8jlC25Qb-jEAAAAM/spiderman-funny.gif
No wonder Manny got kicked out of the LeBron fam with that shockingly low bball iq.

[8Ball]

Durant played with the worst spacing ever for 2/3 of his career

Westbrook
Sefolasha
Ibaka
Perkins

Westbrook
Andre Roberson
Ibaka
Steven Adams

Imagine LeBron having to play with such terrible spacing for the first 10 years of his career:lol

He would have probably turned Kendrick Perkins into a spot up shooter :roll:

Oh poor Durant had to play with 1st team all-nba Westbrook and Harden.

How did he cope?

[8Ball]

No wonder Manny got kicked out of the LeBron fam with that shockingly low bball iq.

"Big Z was a stretch 5"

I won't even bother arguing. There's no hope when people believe shit like that.

[Phoenix]

Yeah well LeBron does have a credible case for 1

My post didn't suggest otherwise. I'm saying *however* one chooses to rank a top 5 list, whoever is in said list should have a case for GOAT but everyone is judging via different criteria so the whole 'GOAT' conversation is useless anyway. Tier approach is better.

[Jasper]

It's funny to think that.


If a combined total of two minutes in 2013 and 2016 hadn't unfolded in Lebron's favour, out of the roughly 55,000 in his career, you're looking at an entirely different legacy for him.


Lebron loses two championship rings and would be nowadays sitting on a 2 and 8 finals record and as a result, the comparison between him and Jordan would be pretty much over.

That is why it would easy to look at his faults and say top10 . .... I will put him at 8.
But when he wins another chip at 4 count it will be everything else he has done to qualify him as the best SF of all time.
That will put him in the Top 5 permanently.

[StrongLurk]

Lowest for me would be 4th all time. Can't see how anyone objectively has him outside of the top five.

Rankings should be done in tiers anyways, not direct numbers. He is my tier list for best players ever.

Tier 1 - MJ
Tier 2 - Lebron, Kareem
Tier 3 - Wilt, Magic, Shaq, Kobe
Tier 4 - Duncan, Bird, Hakeem, Russell, KD

[Manny98]

"Big Z was a stretch 5"

https://c.tenor.com/8jlC25Qb-jEAAAAM/spiderman-funny.gif
He was a stretch 5 you ****ing moron

The majority of his points literally came from mid range jumpshots

You and RRR3 have made it very clear that you've never watch him play :facepalm

[ELITEpower23]

That is why it would easy to look at his faults and say top10 . .... I will put him at 8.
But when he wins another chip at 4 count it will be everything else he has done to qualify him as the best SF of all time.
That will put him in the Top 5 permanently.

When he wins a 4th Finals MVP?

Who wants to tell him? :oldlol:

[8Ball]

He was a stretch 5 you ****ing moron

The majority of his points literally came from mid range jumpshots

You and RRR3 have made it very clear that you've never watch him play :facepalm

How the hell does Big Z space the floor if he shoots like this for the majority of his career:


https://i.ibb.co/3rGfCWY/Screen-Shot-2021-09-05-at-9-54-12-AM.png


And the later years were when he took 3-4 FGA per year, that ain't a floor spacer.

[Manny98]

How the hell does Big Z space the floor if he shoots like this for the majority of his career:


https://i.ibb.co/3rGfCWY/Screen-Shot-2021-09-05-at-9-54-12-AM.png


And the later years were when he took 3-4 FGA per year, that ain't a floor spacer.
60% of his fga are outside of the paint area

I rest my case


https://youtu.be/iReVs2eIqeM

[8Ball]

That is why it would easy to look at his faults and say top10 . .... I will put him at 8.
But when he wins another chip at 4 count it will be everything else he has done to qualify him as the best SF of all time.
That will put him in the Top 5 permanently.

https://sportshub.cbsistatic.com/i/r/2020/10/12/8fab22d7-e8fd-447d-9fed-86eb61c8bede/thumbnail/1200x675/c948ef375bb9da69fd5188ada3a9743a/lakers-title.jpg

[StrongLurk]

Idk why I even post here anymore. Just read through this entire thread and it's 90% garbage/trolls.

[8Ball]

60% of his fga are outside of the paint area

I rest my case



Can you read charts?

60% is within the paint area for majority of his career until the very end when he took only 3-4 FGA per game.

Stretch 5 Big Z myth was busted within minutes.

[ELITEpower23]

Can you read charts?

60% is within the paint area for majority of his career until the very end when he took only 3-4 FGA per game.

Stretch 5 Big Z myth was busted within minutes.

Manny is off the rails. What a shame.

I really thought there was hope for that midget Phillipino too.

[SaintzFury13]

Did you ever watch him play?

Most of his points came from the mid range and pick and pop with LeBron

Teams didn't pay a lot of attention to Z when he was out by the perimeter. They usually gambled on defense and hoped that if the ball were passed to him that he'd miss. Every time the ball was dished out to him, he was usually open. It's one of the reasons why he was still able to generate points for LeBron in his later years despite being pretty immobile.


You know damn well he quit in 2010

No, he didn't. In game 6 of the 2010 playoffs he gave a genuine effort to will Cleveland to a victory. He wasn't able to get it done.

If you're going to claim someone quit on their team, you need to provide instances where their actions are consistent with it.


Quit in 2014

Lmao what? LeBron was the only person on Miami who was actually doing anything that entire series. If anything the rest of his team quit. (They didn't, btw. They were just outplayed by a much better Spurs team)


Checked out after game 1 if the 2018 finals

Now you're naming an instance where he had an injury and claiming he "quit"? Are you dumb?

And before you try the "his hand injury was fake" nonsense...

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2018/06/11/lebron-james-hand-injury-photographic-investigation/


Quit on his team in this playoffs as well

At this point you're just naming random playoff series and hoping I'll be stupid enough to believe you.

His most shot attempts came in the last three playoff games of that series you are referring to. You can't just name a series where the guy lost to a superior team and claim he quit. That's not how this works.


2016 doesn't just dismiss the amount of times LeBron has quit on his team

It wasn't just 2016.

2007 ECF against the Pistons where he could have easily just said **** it and stopped literally carrying the team on his back against the Pistons in game 5. 2012 ECF against the Celtics where they were down 3-2 heading into Boston (and we all know what happened there). 2013 where the Spurs had a double digit lead at the beginning of the fourth quarter of game 6, and LeBron erased that lead with a 16 point performance in that quarter. Lost Kyrie Irving after game 1 of the 2015 Finals, played with literally every ounce of energy he had to help Cleveland steal the next two games (before GS went small ball and took the next three games. You'll probably try to claim that LeBron quit there too, right?). 2008 in a game 7 matchup against a 66 win Celtics team, LeBron drops 45 and Cleveland almost steals the series against the heavily favored Celtics. 2018 ECF where Cleveland failed to gain homecourt advantage against Boston and have to try to win game 7 on their homecourt, LeBron responds by dropping 35 and leads Cleveland to victory.

LeBron doesn't "quit" on his teams. That stopped being a thing a long time ago, and even then it was an unsubstantiated claim with no proof to back it up. Sure, 2010 is arguable since he admitted he didn't think his team could beat the Celtics, but that doesn't = a guy quitting, it just means he knows his team is inferior, just like he probably knew his team was inferior to the Warriors in 2018. That didn't stop him from doing everything he could to propel them to victory.

If you're going to try to pretend that you're some objective fan who acknowledges LeBron's greatness, then stop saying dumb shit like this. No objective person with a brain would think LeBron quit in 2014.

[8Ball]

Teams didn't pay a lot of attention to Z when he was out by the perimeter. They usually gambled on defense and hoped that if the ball were passed to him that he'd miss. Every time the ball was dished out to him, he was usually open. It's one of the reasons why he was still able to generate points for LeBron in his later years despite being pretty immobile.



No, he didn't. In game 6 of the 2010 playoffs he gave a genuine effort to will Cleveland to a victory. He wasn't able to get it done.

If you're going to claim someone quit on their team, you need to provide instances where their actions are consistent with it.



Lmao what? LeBron was the only person on Miami who was actually doing anything that entire series. If anything the rest of his team quit. (They didn't, btw. They were just outplayed by a much better Spurs team)



Now you're naming an instance where he had an injury and claiming he "quit"? Are you dumb?

And before you try the "his hand injury was fake" nonsense...

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2018/06/11/lebron-james-hand-injury-photographic-investigation/



At this point you're just naming random playoff series and hoping I'll be stupid enough to believe you.

His most shot attempts came in the last three playoff games of that series you are referring to. You can't just name a series where the guy lost to a superior team and claim he quit. That's not how this works.



It wasn't just 2016.

2007 ECF against the Pistons where he could have easily just said **** it and stopped literally carrying the team on his back against the Pistons in game 5. 2012 ECF against the Celtics where they were down 3-2 heading into Boston (and we all know what happened there). 2013 where the Spurs had a double digit lead at the beginning of the fourth quarter of game 6, and LeBron erased that lead with a 16 point performance in that quarter. Lost Kyrie Irving after game 1 of the 2015 Finals, played with literally every ounce of energy he had to help Cleveland steal the next two games (before GS went small ball and took the next three games. You'll probably try to claim that LeBron quit there too, right?). 2008 in a game 7 matchup against a 66 win Celtics team, LeBron drops 45 and Cleveland almost steals the series against the heavily favored Celtics. 2018 ECF where Cleveland failed to gain homecourt advantage against Boston and have to try to win game 7 on their homecourt, LeBron responds by dropping 35 and leads Cleveland to victory.

LeBron doesn't "quit" on his teams. That stopped being a thing a long time ago, and even then it was an unsubstantiated claim with no proof to back it up. Sure, 2010 is arguable since he admitted he didn't think his team could beat the Celtics, but that doesn't = a guy quitting, it just means he knows his team is inferior, just like he probably knew his team was inferior to the Warriors in 2018. That didn't stop him from doing everything he could to propel them to victory.

If you're going to try to pretend that you're some objective fan who acknowledges LeBron's greatness, then stop saying dumb shit like this. No objective person with a brain would think LeBron quit in 2014.

SaintzFury is high IQ poster. This post is very accurate.

Regarding Bron quitting:

https://scholarlykitchen.sspnet.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/MythBusted.jpeg

[Manny98]

Down only 18 with 6 and a half minutes left

LeBron sat on the bench


https://youtu.be/3bCc2bD3tAo

[8Ball]

Manny is off the rails. What a shame.

I really thought there was hope for that midget Phillipino too.

He's not yet at chart reading on basketball reference.

It will take time to teach this one.

[StrongLurk]

Down only 18 with 6 and a half minutes left

LeBron sat on the bench


https://youtu.be/3bCc2bD3tAo

I can't believe this kid actually felt bullied by other Lebron stans so he immediately switched up his schtick and jumped on the Durant bandwagon :roll:

That's some sad shit man.

[8Ball]

Down only 18 with 6 and a half minutes left

LeBron sat on the bench


https://youtu.be/3bCc2bD3tAo

Game was over. Coach pulls players when games are over.


Kevin Durant went to the bench game 5 NBA finals 2012.


By your logic Durant quit here too when there was still a chance. To normal civilized people he just lost the game:



https://i.ibb.co/Hqp3QkR/Screen-Shot-2021-09-05-at-10-11-46-AM.png

[Manny98]

I can't believe this kid actually felt bullied by other Lebron stans so he immediately switched up his schtick and jumped on the Durant bandwagon :roll:

That's some sad shit man.
I have been stanning KD and the Nets since I joined ISH

Keep up bud

[Phoenix]

Lowest for me would be 4th all time. Can't see how anyone objectively has him outside of the top five.

Rankings should be done in tiers anyways, not direct numbers. He is my tier list for best players ever.

Tier 1 - MJ
Tier 2 - Lebron, Kareem
Tier 3 - Wilt, Magic, Shaq, Kobe
Tier 4 - Duncan, Bird, Hakeem, Russell, KD

With you on the tiers, though I'm curious why you have Bird and Magic on different tiers? I do have a few other issues with who you have in which tier but I feel like Bird and Magic are in the same tier.

[SaintzFury13]

Hate to break it to you kid

But majority of the fan base has those 3 easily ahead of Lebron

All their rings and career are more impressive and harder than Lebron

The majority of the fan base? What are you basing this off of? Because I can talk to any casual and I'm almost certain they'll acknowledge that LeBron is above all three of these guys.

Also, their rings are more impressive and harder? The 2013 and 2016 championship rings are much greater and were more challenging than any of the championships any of these guys had. The only ones that are comparable are Kobe's 2010 ring (which he almost lost after having one of the worst game 7 Finals performances for a top star of all time) and Duncan's 2005 ring against the Pistons (and you can argue that Manu was the more deserving Finals MVP of that series).

[Manny98]

Game was over. Coach pulls players when games are over.


Kevin Durant went to the bench game 5 NBA finals 2012.


By your logic Durant quit here too when there was still a chance. To normal civilized people he just lost the game:



https://i.ibb.co/Hqp3QkR/Screen-Shot-2021-09-05-at-10-11-46-AM.png
There was 6 and a half minutes left

It was FAR from over, plenty of teams have come back from a 18 point deposit in 6.5 minutes, *cough* LeBron himself


https://youtu.be/hIsTerzFv6I

[RRR3]

I can't believe this kid actually felt bullied by other Lebron stans so he immediately switched up his schtick and jumped on the Durant bandwagon :roll:

That's some sad shit man.
MAHNEEEEEEEEEE :roll: :roll: :roll:

[tontoz]

To me the top 3 all time (in any order) are Kareem/Lebron/MJ. I dont see a case for anyone else being in the top 3.

[SaintzFury13]

Down only 18 with 6 and a half minutes left

LeBron sat on the bench


https://youtu.be/3bCc2bD3tAo

First off, LeBron had 31 of Miami's 72 points at this point. There was literally nothing the man more the man could do. San Antonio was going to win regardless of what he did. That's not quitting. That's the coaching staff telling him enough is enough and it's time to concede.

Second, if this is the best example you have of someone "quitting", then you're going to be in for a big surprise when you learn how many star players were benched this late in games because their teams were being blown out.

Again, learn what "quitting on your team" means. Try using your brain. It's not difficult.

[SaintzFury13]

There was 6 and a half minutes left

It was FAR from over, plenty of teams have come back from a 18 point deposit in 6.5 minutes, *cough* LeBron himself

In an NBA Finals? No, they haven't.

[Manny98]

First off, LeBron had 31 of Miami's 72 points at this point. There was literally nothing the man more the man could do. San Antonio was going to win regardless of what he did. That's not quitting. That's the coaching staff telling him enough is enough and it's time to concede.

Second, if this is the best example you have of someone "quitting", then you're going to be in for a big surprise when you learn how many star players were benched this late in games because their teams were being blown out.

Again, learn what "quitting on your team" means. Try using your brain. It's not difficult.
https://media.giphy.com/media/xT1XGESDlxj0GwoDRe/giphy-downsized-large.gif?cid=ecf05e47po700bckq2ciae3aa9qyqohpjgk0 vtmohwdqunw5&rid=giphy-downsized-large.gif&ct=g

Kobe or Jordan would never be sat on the bench only down 18 with 7 minutes left In an elimination game

[RRR3]

Manny is legit crying rn

[ELITEpower23]

Are we really entertaining whether the greatest comeback player of all time is a quitter?

https://i.postimg.cc/HxGgjFMj/The-Comeback-Kid.png

Next :oldlol:

[SaintzFury13]

https://media.giphy.com/media/xT1XGESDlxj0GwoDRe/giphy-downsized-large.gif?cid=ecf05e47po700bckq2ciae3aa9qyqohpjgk0 vtmohwdqunw5&rid=giphy-downsized-large.gif&ct=g

Kobe or Jordan would never be sat on the bench only down 18 with 7 minutes left In an elimination game

They also would never account for nearly 50% of their teams points while losing by that much. That's the luxury they had of not having to worry about playing against superior teams in NBA Finals, except for when they did, in which case they literally couldn't even produce decent numbers, at least in Kobe's case.

22 points on 31% shooting against Boston in 2008? The same team LeBron dropped 45 on in an elimination game? Who here is the soft one again?

[Axe]

Teams didn't pay a lot of attention to Z when he was out by the perimeter. They usually gambled on defense and hoped that if the ball were passed to him that he'd miss. Every time the ball was dished out to him, he was usually open. It's one of the reasons why he was still able to generate points for LeBron in his later years despite being pretty immobile.



No, he didn't. In game 6 of the 2010 playoffs he gave a genuine effort to will Cleveland to a victory. He wasn't able to get it done.

If you're going to claim someone quit on their team, you need to provide instances where their actions are consistent with it.



Lmao what? LeBron was the only person on Miami who was actually doing anything that entire series. If anything the rest of his team quit. (They didn't, btw. They were just outplayed by a much better Spurs team)



Now you're naming an instance where he had an injury and claiming he "quit"? Are you dumb?

And before you try the "his hand injury was fake" nonsense...

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2018/06/11/lebron-james-hand-injury-photographic-investigation/



At this point you're just naming random playoff series and hoping I'll be stupid enough to believe you.

His most shot attempts came in the last three playoff games of that series you are referring to. You can't just name a series where the guy lost to a superior team and claim he quit. That's not how this works.



It wasn't just 2016.

2007 ECF against the Pistons where he could have easily just said **** it and stopped literally carrying the team on his back against the Pistons in game 5. 2012 ECF against the Celtics where they were down 3-2 heading into Boston (and we all know what happened there). 2013 where the Spurs had a double digit lead at the beginning of the fourth quarter of game 6, and LeBron erased that lead with a 16 point performance in that quarter. Lost Kyrie Irving after game 1 of the 2015 Finals, played with literally every ounce of energy he had to help Cleveland steal the next two games (before GS went small ball and took the next three games. You'll probably try to claim that LeBron quit there too, right?). 2008 in a game 7 matchup against a 66 win Celtics team, LeBron drops 45 and Cleveland almost steals the series against the heavily favored Celtics. 2018 ECF where Cleveland failed to gain homecourt advantage against Boston and have to try to win game 7 on their homecourt, LeBron responds by dropping 35 and leads Cleveland to victory.

LeBron doesn't "quit" on his teams. That stopped being a thing a long time ago, and even then it was an unsubstantiated claim with no proof to back it up. Sure, 2010 is arguable since he admitted he didn't think his team could beat the Celtics, but that doesn't = a guy quitting, it just means he knows his team is inferior, just like he probably knew his team was inferior to the Warriors in 2018. That didn't stop him from doing everything he could to propel them to victory.

If you're going to try to pretend that you're some objective fan who acknowledges LeBron's greatness, then stop saying dumb shit like this. No objective person with a brain would think LeBron quit in 2014.
You can tell this guy is way too seriously defensive about kong. :ohwell:

[Manny98]

They also would never account for nearly 50% of their teams points while losing by that much. That's the luxury they had of not having to worry about playing against superior teams in NBA Finals, except for when they did, in which case they literally couldn't even produce decent numbers, at least in Kobe's case.

22 points on 31% shooting against Boston in 2008? The same team LeBron dropped 45 on in an elimination game? Who here is the soft one again?

Did Kobe quit though?

He went out swinging and came back and beat them 2 year later.

LeBron on the other hand ran away and formed a superteam not once but twice :oldlol:

[SaintzFury13]

You can tell this guy is way too seriously defensive about kong. :ohwell:

I don't think I've ever once denied that.

[SaintzFury13]

Did Kobe quit though?

He went out swinging and came back and beat them 2 year later.

LeBron on the other hand ran away and formed a superteam not once but twice :oldlol:

If you consider Cleveland to be a super team, then you are literally too stupid to insult, not to mention that team didn't even have Kevin Love at the time that he joined and it was pure speculation at the time, so even going by your own standards he didn't.

And are you really going to act like Kobe's never once quit after what happened in 2006 and the fact that he requested a trade before?

[Manny98]

https://i.postimg.cc/vZS3MpXj/092614-FSO-NBA-Cavs-Le-Bron-Love-Kyrie2-PI-vresize-1024-576-high-79.jpg

"Not a superteam"

https://media.giphy.com/media/VIVWFx6c91AAwWLwWB/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47vfoiwlcdwakaurh8z28haziw1x2f 6waj0stoegrt&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[ELITEpower23]

https://i.postimg.cc/vZS3MpXj/092614-FSO-NBA-Cavs-Le-Bron-Love-Kyrie2-PI-vresize-1024-576-high-79.jpg

"Not a superteam"

https://media.giphy.com/media/VIVWFx6c91AAwWLwWB/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47vfoiwlcdwakaurh8z28haziw1x2f 6waj0stoegrt&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

If 2016 Kyrie is a super team then what is 2021 Kyrie?
If 2016 Love is a super team what is 2021 Harden?

Tread lightly Durant fan :oldlol:

[SaintzFury13]

https://i.postimg.cc/vZS3MpXj/092614-FSO-NBA-Cavs-Le-Bron-Love-Kyrie2-PI-vresize-1024-576-high-79.jpg

"Not a superteam"

https://media.giphy.com/media/VIVWFx6c91AAwWLwWB/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47vfoiwlcdwakaurh8z28haziw1x2f 6waj0stoegrt&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

Yes, Kevin Love whose entire role was to be a spot up shooter, taking away his most affective offensive game and what made him one of the best offensive players in the league in the first place. And Kryie Irving, who literally only did one thing great and that's score.

Again, use your brain. It's not difficult.

[warriorfan]

LeBron stans absolutely fuming right now

:roll:

[Manny98]

If 2016 Kyrie is a super team then what is 2021 Kyrie?
If 2016 Love is a super team what is 2021 Harden?

Tread lightly Durant fan :oldlol:
Um... I've never said the Nets weren't a superteam

[8Ball]

Did Kobe quit though?

He went out swinging and came back and beat them 2 year later.

LeBron on the other hand ran away and formed a superteam not once but twice :oldlol:

Durant was up 3-1 vs warriors then joined em.

This 18 year old kid confused.

Still learning how to read charts. Its called school.

[SaintzFury13]

LeBron stans absolutely fuming right now

:roll:

I don't know why you're laughing. You literally provide nothing valuable to any thread based on what I've seen so far. All you do is come into threads and piggy back off of the laughable opinions of other posters who share your thoughts because you aren't smart enough to convey them into your own words.

[Hey Yo]

https://i.postimg.cc/vZS3MpXj/092614-FSO-NBA-Cavs-Le-Bron-Love-Kyrie2-PI-vresize-1024-576-high-79.jpg

"Not a superteam"

https://media.giphy.com/media/VIVWFx6c91AAwWLwWB/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47vfoiwlcdwakaurh8z28haziw1x2f 6waj0stoegrt&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

2 postseason virgins is considered 2/3rds of a superteam?

[Manny98]

Yes, Kevin Love whose entire role was to be a spot up shooter, taking away his most affective offensive game and what made him one of the best offensive players in the league in the first place. And Kryie Irving, who literally only did one thing great and that's score.

Again, use your brain. It's not difficult.

Love the season before playing for the Cavs

4th in scoring
3rd in rebounds
4th in WS/48
2nd in BPM (ahead of LeBron)
3rd in VOR (only KD and Lebron were ahead)
3rd in PER

Love was a legit top 5 player in the NBA statistically in 2014

Kyrie was a considered a superstar in the making

They were 1000% a Superteam when they got together and 100% the heavy favorites to win the championship that year

[Hey Yo]

What was Love's postseason numbers in 15 and 16?

[SaintzFury13]

Love the season before playing for the Cavs

4th in scoring
3rd in rebounds
4th in WS/48
2nd in BPM (ahead of LeBron)
3rd in VOR (only KD and Lebron were ahead)
3rd in PER

Love was a legit top 5 player in the NBA statistically in 2014

Kyrie was a considered a superstar in the making

They were 1000% a Superteam when they got together and 100% the heavy favorites to win the championship that year

Kyrie as Cleveland's best player failed to keep Cleveland out of the lottery.

Kevin Love was a legit defensive liability.

Cleveland was 19-20 with this new team, struggling a lot more than Miami did when they got their first big three. Cleveland didn't truly become an elite team until they traded for Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert. After that, they had an actual roster to work with.

This is why the super team argument is an extremely laughable one and can be ripped apart the moment you start using your brain, something you clearly aren't capable of doing. It didn't matter how good Love was before coming to Cleveland and it didn't matter how much potential Irving had. They were both very flawed players with weaknesses that could easily be exploited. Cleveland became legitimate contenders once they got solid roleplayers to fill out the holes that were so clear that your car would be totaled after running over it.

[Manny98]

LeBron stans are so delusional holy shit

[outofstomach]

I am smarter than you.

You beg for money every 2 weeks from your employer.

I semi retired by 30.

You will never be as smart as I am.

Go **** yourself you piece of shit. Challenge me and I will wreck you like I did you friend dabigsalshisha.
jesus you’re melting down :lol :lol imagine being this mad because people don’t think your favorite player is that great

[SaintzFury13]

LeBron stans are so delusional holy shit

Again, when confronted with facts, you duck and run instead of refuting the argument. You have literally nothing.

[outofstomach]

2 postseason virgins is considered 2/3rds of a superteam?

what team was better than them in the East?

[Manny98]

Loves second best player was Ricky f*cking Rubio and they still finshed .500

Goes to show how monstrous Love was that year

Timberwolves were +5.6 whilst Love was on the court that year so it obviously wasn't his fault they missed the playoffs

[SaintzFury13]

what team was better than them in the East?

Before Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert were traded to the Cavaliers? A good four or five teams in the East were superior.

[Manny98]

Before Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert were traded to the Cavaliers? A good four or five teams in the East were superior.
:roll:

[Hey Yo]

what team was better than them in the East?

Being the best team in your conference doesn't automatically make you a superteam.

Basic common sense.

[ELITEpower23]

Loves second best player was Ricky f*cking Rubio and they still finshed .500

Goes to show how monstrous Love was that year

Timberwolves were +5.6 whilst Love was on the court that year so it obviously wasn't his fault they missed the playoffs

What if I told you 2007 LeBron's second best player was Larry f*cking Hughes and they still went to the Finals?

[ELITEpower23]

what team was better than them in the East?

Dumb question. LeBron makes them a super team. Take LeBron off and keep the playoff virgin duo and those Cavaliers are a 7 seed at best.

Take KD off the 2017 Warriors and...still 73 games. Take MJ off the Bulls and...Still 55 wins and a near ECF appearance. Understood now?

-Professor Elite

[SaintzFury13]

Loves second best player was Ricky f*cking Rubio and they still finshed .500

Goes to show how monstrous Love was that year

Timberwolves were +5.6 whilst Love was on the court that year so it obviously wasn't his fault they missed the playoffs

No one is denying how good Kevin Love was in Minnesota. None of that means anything once he goes to Cleveland. His post up game was his greatest attribute in Minny and that was taken away from him by Blatt. He was a defensive liability who could be abused on that end by opposing teams. And he lost weight before going to Cleveland, which hurt his ability to bang with opposing players downlow when fighting for rebounds.

The Kevin Love of Minnesota and the Kevin Love of Cleveland are two completely different players. Kevin Love in Cleveland was still a very good player don't get me wrong, but was never going to be anything close to being good enough for Cleveland to be a legitimate "super team". And to make matters worse, LeBron made the NBA Finals in 2015 without Love playing after the first round of the playoffs. Kyrie Irving struggled with injuries during the series against the Bulls. And Cleveland's greatest challenge? The 60 win Hawks team with four all stars? The Cavaliers swept them with Kyrie not even playing one full game in that series. And Golden State didn't get the upper hand on Cleveland until they went small ball and Cleveland literally lacked the bodies to counter it.

So the "LeBron needed a super team" nonsense has no merit to it. Cleveland wasn't a super team and even if they were, LeBron already proved he didn't need one to win that year. You can make the argument that he probably would have done it with just Kyrie.

You have no argument here. None. You've taken enough ass kickings today as is. Take the L before it gets any worse for you.

[SaintzFury13]

:roll:

So the 19-20 Cavaliers were the best team in the East?

[sdot_thadon]

At this point if you have him below top 5 you're looking like a clown. For me personally, he's top 3 in tier 1.

[Manny98]

So the 19-20 Cavaliers were the best team in the East?

They were the most talented team in the East by a country mile

[ELITEpower23]

So the 19-20 Cavaliers were the best team in the East?

Check. Mate.

[Phoenix]

Ok when did Manny go anti-Lebron? :wtf:

[MadDog]

I feel like players have to adjust to playing with LeBron more so than players have to adjust to playing with any player in the top 10, he requires shooters and floor spacing and is probably the weakest at playing without the ball out of everyone in the top 10

Also I could see a lot of posters ranking LeBron lower due to the decision and his general tendency to quit when the going gets tough.

Those are actually fair points. LeBron's weak off-ball play might compromise his portability. He can play 1-4, but if the system isn't dependent on your pointguard, and requires perpetual cuts and moving without the ball, he wouldn't look right. Question would then be, is "LeBron ball" better than the system?


My post didn't suggest otherwise. I'm saying *however* one chooses to rank a top 5 list, whoever is in said list should have a case for GOAT but everyone is judging via different criteria so the whole 'GOAT' conversation is useless anyway. Tier approach is better.

Idk about 5. I would say that's more accurate with the top 3. You're nitpicking with most of the top 10 truthfully. But as far as careers go, the top 3 seem to have the "greatest" argument. After that I also prefer tiers, as rankings become a crapshoot.


At this point if you have him below top 5 you're looking like a clown. For me personally, he's top 3 in tier 1.

Basically. I have him around 5

[Phoenix]

Idk about 5. I would say that's more accurate with the top 3. You're nitpicking with most of the top 10 truthfully. But as far as careers go, the top 3 seem to have the "greatest" argument. After that I also prefer tiers, as rankings become a crapshoot.




The thing is, there are very minute differences once you even get into the top 10. Once you get into whatever you consider the top 5 it's even more splitting hairs. You said more like top 3 but there's probably barely any distinction between whoever you have at #3/4/5.

[SaintzFury13]

They were the most talented team in the East by a country mile

Thanks for proving you don't understand the sport of basketball. A team being the most talented does not = the best team. Talent only gets you so far in this league. Fit, coaching, and chemistry are all much more important than talent and it's not arguable.

The Cavaliers had an incredibly dysfunctional roster. They had no rim protection. They had no bench. They were incredibly weak at the SG and C positions. They had Shawn Marion (yes, Shawn ****ing Marion) as their starting two guard at one point. Dion Waiters still had trouble playing with Irving. At one point, Kevin Love was forced to play the center position because Varejao went down with injury. Kevin was restricted to being a perimeter shooter and nothing more. They had to go through multiple line up changes because nothing was working.

Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert being traded to Cleveland changed the entire dynamic of the team. First, it rid them of Dion Waiters, who simply was not a good fit with Cleveland and was never going to be with his inconsistent shooting from the perimeter. Cleveland not only found a much more suitable replacement for him at the starting position, but even managed to get a very solid back up at the same position. They solved the SG problem in one trade. JR Smith, who had developed into a very good catch and shoot player with the ability to get hot from deep was the perfect, and I mean PERFECT two guard for LeBron James. Yes, he made some incredibly stupid plays, but his style of play was perfect for this team. It gave Cleveland more consistent floor spacing and it allowed Blatt to run more plays suited to his style of play. Next there's Shumpert, who I felt should have been the starter but I could see the logic behind him coming off the bench. He and Delly provided Cleveland's second unit with very good defense at the perimeter and helped make up for the lack of scoring that they were receiving from them. This also meant Blatt didn't have to play guys like Marion at the two guard, which I once again need to state is insane. And last but not least there's Mozgov, who still to this day is an underrated pick up from Cleveland in 2015. He was mobile, could defend at the rim without fouling, could stretch the floor out a bit with his mid range shooting, but above all else he was familiar with Blatt's system. He knew where to be on the floor when needed. He was able to find cuts to the basket a lot easier and he had decent offensive awareness which allowed him to be positioned better on the floor for LeBron and others who attacked the rim. Those 40 or so games that he played with Cleveland were the best basketball of his career, and there's a reason for that. It's a shame that he was never the same again after the injury he suffered in the offseason.

This is exactly what the 2013 Lakers, another team many stupid people consider a super team, were desperately missing. Key pick ups that solved the very glaring weaknesses the roster possessed. Those were not only never addressed, but were made worse by the signing of D'Antoni, an overrated coach who was brought in to solve LA's problems and instead made them worse.

So again I say, stop giving us the bullshit super team narrative. I don't care how much talent they had. I don't care how favored they were at the start of the season. They weren't a super team, not by any stretch of the imagination. If you need solid role players acquired mid season at a point where you're almost halfway through the season and you're below .500 to make you a contender, then you aren't a super team. Miami was a super team and that's why they didn't need any pickups to become one of the top teams in the league and make it to the finals. Cleveland did.

[HylianNightmare]

3 at worst

[outofstomach]

Thanks for proving you don't understand the sport of basketball. A team being the most talented does not = the best team. Talent only gets you so far in this league. Fit, coaching, and chemistry are all much more important than talent and it's not arguable.

The Cavaliers had an incredibly dysfunctional roster. They had no rim protection. They had no bench. They were incredibly weak at the SG and C positions. They had Shawn Marion (yes, Shawn ****ing Marion) as their starting two guard at one point. Dion Waiters still had trouble playing with Irving. At one point, Kevin Love was forced to play the center position because Varejao went down with injury. Kevin was restricted to being a perimeter shooter and nothing more. They had to go through multiple line up changes because nothing was working.

Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert being traded to Cleveland changed the entire dynamic of the team. First, it rid them of Dion Waiters, who simply was not a good fit with Cleveland and was never going to be with his inconsistent shooting from the perimeter. Cleveland not only found a much more suitable replacement for him at the starting position, but even managed to get a very solid back up at the same position. They solved the SG problem in one trade. JR Smith, who had developed into a very good catch and shoot player with the ability to get hot from deep was the perfect, and I mean PERFECT two guard for LeBron James. Yes, he made some incredibly stupid plays, but his style of play was perfect for this team. It gave Cleveland more consistent floor spacing and it allowed Blatt to run more plays suited to his style of play. Next there's Shumpert, who I felt should have been the starter but I could see the logic behind him coming off the bench. He and Delly provided Cleveland's second unit with very good defense at the perimeter and helped make up for the lack of scoring that they were receiving from them. This also meant Blatt didn't have to play guys like Marion at the two guard, which I once again need to state is insane. And last but not least there's Mozgov, who still to this day is an underrated pick up from Cleveland in 2015. He was mobile, could defend at the rim without fouling, could stretch the floor out a bit with his mid range shooting, but above all else he was familiar with Blatt's system. He knew where to be on the floor when needed. He was able to find cuts to the basket a lot easier and he had decent offensive awareness which allowed him to be positioned better on the floor for LeBron and others who attacked the rim. Those 40 or so games that he played with Cleveland were the best basketball of his career, and there's a reason for that. It's a shame that he was never the same again after the injury he suffered in the offseason.

This is exactly what the 2013 Lakers, another team many stupid people consider a super team, were desperately missing. Key pick ups that solved the very glaring weaknesses the roster possessed. Those were not only never addressed, but were made worse by the signing of D'Antoni, an overrated coach who was brought in to solve LA's problems and instead made them worse.

So again I say, stop giving us the bullshit super team narrative. I don't care how much talent they had. I don't care how favored they were at the start of the season. They weren't a super team, not by any stretch of the imagination. If you need solid role players acquired mid season at a point where you're almost halfway through the season and you're below .500 to make you a contender, then you aren't a super team. Miami was a super team and that's why they didn't need any pickups to become one of the top teams in the league and make it to the finals. Cleveland did.

who was their rival in the east?

[outofstomach]

Being the best team in your conference doesn't automatically make you a superteam.

Basic common sense.
it makes them a super team in that relative conference, sorry to break it to you

[outofstomach]

Dumb question. LeBron makes them a super team. Take LeBron off and keep the playoff virgin duo and those Cavaliers are a 7 seed at best.

Take KD off the 2017 Warriors and...still 73 games. Take MJ off the Bulls and...Still 55 wins and a near ECF appearance. Understood now?

-Professor Elite


why can’t all four of you name me any teams that were a threat to make the finals over them?

it’s almost like they had no competition out East because they were the alpha dogs of that conference..

hmm..

[90sgoat]

60% of his fga are outside of the paint area

I rest my case


https://youtu.be/iReVs2eIqeM

This video shows just how raw Lebron played early on and how inefficient his playstyle was.

[Manny98]

Ok when did Manny go anti-Lebron? :wtf:

I'm not I think he's top 3, just don't stan him as hard anymore

[outofstomach]

How dare LeBron not get frustrated playing with significant worse spacing than every other modern team lol. LeBron has to play with a handicap or manpee98 will say he needs shooters :yaohappy:

Btw Durant pooped his pants in overtime in game 7
so first you say lebron won with no spacing, then he disproved it with that video of him crying about it, and then you move the goalposts and say “well ok it was significantly worse than everyone else’s” in an attempt to cover up, you really are a shameless taint eater

you won’t be taken seriously basketball wise from here on out

[Manny98]

Thanks for proving you don't understand the sport of basketball. A team being the most talented does not = the best team. Talent only gets you so far in this league. Fit, coaching, and chemistry are all much more important than talent and it's not arguable.

The Cavaliers had an incredibly dysfunctional roster. They had no rim protection. They had no bench. They were incredibly weak at the SG and C positions. They had Shawn Marion (yes, Shawn ****ing Marion) as their starting two guard at one point. Dion Waiters still had trouble playing with Irving. At one point, Kevin Love was forced to play the center position because Varejao went down with injury. Kevin was restricted to being a perimeter shooter and nothing more. They had to go through multiple line up changes because nothing was working.

Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert being traded to Cleveland changed the entire dynamic of the team. First, it rid them of Dion Waiters, who simply was not a good fit with Cleveland and was never going to be with his inconsistent shooting from the perimeter. Cleveland not only found a much more suitable replacement for him at the starting position, but even managed to get a very solid back up at the same position. They solved the SG problem in one trade. JR Smith, who had developed into a very good catch and shoot player with the ability to get hot from deep was the perfect, and I mean PERFECT two guard for LeBron James. Yes, he made some incredibly stupid plays, but his style of play was perfect for this team. It gave Cleveland more consistent floor spacing and it allowed Blatt to run more plays suited to his style of play. Next there's Shumpert, who I felt should have been the starter but I could see the logic behind him coming off the bench. He and Delly provided Cleveland's second unit with very good defense at the perimeter and helped make up for the lack of scoring that they were receiving from them. This also meant Blatt didn't have to play guys like Marion at the two guard, which I once again need to state is insane. And last but not least there's Mozgov, who still to this day is an underrated pick up from Cleveland in 2015. He was mobile, could defend at the rim without fouling, could stretch the floor out a bit with his mid range shooting, but above all else he was familiar with Blatt's system. He knew where to be on the floor when needed. He was able to find cuts to the basket a lot easier and he had decent offensive awareness which allowed him to be positioned better on the floor for LeBron and others who attacked the rim. Those 40 or so games that he played with Cleveland were the best basketball of his career, and there's a reason for that. It's a shame that he was never the same again after the injury he suffered in the offseason.

This is exactly what the 2013 Lakers, another team many stupid people consider a super team, were desperately missing. Key pick ups that solved the very glaring weaknesses the roster possessed. Those were not only never addressed, but were made worse by the signing of D'Antoni, an overrated coach who was brought in to solve LA's problems and instead made them worse.

So again I say, stop giving us the bullshit super team narrative. I don't care how much talent they had. I don't care how favored they were at the start of the season. They weren't a super team, not by any stretch of the imagination. If you need solid role players acquired mid season at a point where you're almost halfway through the season and you're below .500 to make you a contender, then you aren't a super team. Miami was a super team and that's why they didn't need any pickups to become one of the top teams in the league and make it to the finals. Cleveland did.
The Lakers were supposed to be a superteam but they were riddled with injuries and Dwight wasn't the same player he was in Orlando

The Cavs struggled at first mainly because they had to develop chemistry. Pre season they were heavy favorites to win it all and were considered a Superteam by most people

[sdot_thadon]

Those are actually fair points. LeBron's weak off-ball play might compromise his portability. He can play 1-4, but if the system isn't dependent on your pointguard, and requires perpetual cuts and moving without the ball, he wouldn't look right. Question would then be, is "LeBron ball" better than the system?
I think this is where alot of guys have it misunderstood. Lebron showed he was perfectly capable of playing off ball within a system in Miami, each season they played a bit different as far a what they did with him. The 1st year was him and Wade on ball 24/7 taking turns. The following seasons he and Wade both became more effective off ball and they won chips that way. Where you get the game confused is, that when the chips are down, on any team Lebron's ever been on, him with the ball in his hands is the nuclear option in high leverage moments. And to be honest it's in most cases the most effective setup for his team. So it's not that he "can't play this way per se, it's more of that what has been best for the teams he's had. Unless you're in the firm belief that a team is better off with Chalmers or Kyrie making playmaking decisions full time when you literally have Lebrons James on the same roster.....




Idk about 5. I would say that's more accurate with the top 3. You're nitpicking with most of the top 10 truthfully. But as far as careers go, the top 3 seem to have the "greatest" argument. After that I also prefer tiers, as rankings become a crapshoot.
Everybody up to like no.5 for me has a goat claim depending on criteria.


Basically. I have him around 5
That's fair but is it for good reasons? I'd like to hear.

[sdot_thadon]

it makes them a super team in that relative conference, sorry to break it to you

So how does this line of thinking apply to the 90s Bulls then?

[SaintzFury13]

The Lakers were supposed to be a superteam but they were riddled with injuries and Dwight wasn't the same player he was in Orlando

The Cavs struggled at first mainly because they had to develop chemistry. Pre season they were heavy favorites to win it all and were considered a Superteam by most people

Just like Kevin Love wasn't the same player that he was in Minnesota.

So again, going by your logic, the Cavaliers aren't a superteam.

And that's not why the Cavaliers struggled. It wasn't a "chemistry" issue. They had a dysfunctional roster with holes that needed to be filled. Anyone who was watching at the time could tell you this.

Again, just stop already. You have no argument here. None.

[outofstomach]

So how does this line of thinking apply to the 90s Bulls then?

you could go ahead and call them a super team, but what makes it different for me compared to lebron is that jordan never lost and he dominated with sufficient help, always won when he was supposed to

not to mention jordan didn’t collude, stayed on the same team and helped develop role players that were there

lebron on the other hand didn’t do any of this

[outofstomach]

not to even mention that rodman was a pretty mid level scorer (which he understandably made up for with his rebounding and defensive prowess) but nevertheless lots of the scoring load still laid on jordan

lebron had definitely less of one with kyrie and love

[sdot_thadon]

you could go ahead and call them a super team, but what makes it different for me compared to lebron is that jordan never lost and he dominated with sufficient help, always won when he was supposed to

not to mention jordan didn’t collude, stayed on the same team and helped develop role players that were there

lebron on the other hand didn’t do any of this

Mj absolutely asked for players he wanted and management laughed at him. He wanted every Carolina guy who entered the draft lol. And sure he never failed with "sufficient " help, if by sufficient we mean always having the best 2nd option while already being so much better than anybody else in the league at that point. Some of us wouldn't call that sufficient, we'd call it overkill. And last but not least that era didn't allow the type of movement players are afforded now. If it was possible back then Mj would have left the moment his rookie deal was up.

[SaintzFury13]

not to even mention that rodman was a pretty mid level scorer (which he understandably made up for with his rebounding and defensive prowess) but nevertheless lots of the scoring load still laid on jordan

lebron had definitely less of one with kyrie and love

MJ had a lot more defensive help than LeBron did. The main thing however is that even though MJ never lost, he was never the underdog in any of his finals series. He's still the GOAT, but these are factors we cannot ignore.

[sdot_thadon]

not to even mention that rodman was a pretty mid level scorer (which he understandably made up for with his rebounding and defensive prowess) but nevertheless lots of the scoring load still laid on jordan

lebron had definitely less of one with kyrie and love

And there's a trade off. Lebron had a slightly lesser scoring load but also had the entire playmaking responsibility as well, which Mj didn't have. Especially in the 2nd 3peat when he was mostly tasked with just getting buckets.

[Manny98]

Just like Kevin Love wasn't the same player that he was in Minnesota.

So again, going by your logic, the Cavaliers aren't a superteam.

And that's not why the Cavaliers struggled. It wasn't a "chemistry" issue. They had a dysfunctional roster with holes that needed to be filled. Anyone who was watching at the time could tell you this.

Again, just stop already. You have no argument here. None.

Dwight wasn't the same player because of injuries dumbass

[outofstomach]

Mj absolutely asked for players he wanted and management laughed at him. He wanted every Carolina guy who entered the draft lol. And sure he never failed with "sufficient " help, if by sufficient we mean always having the best 2nd option while already being so much better than anybody else in the league at that point. Some of us wouldn't call that sufficient, we'd call it overkill. And last but not least that era didn't allow the type of movement players are afforded now. If it was possible back then Mj would have left the moment his rookie deal was up.

didn’t say that he didn’t ask for help, i said he never colluded (jump ship team to team) i don’t care about the what if’s i care about what happened

i never understood how lebron gets a pass for jumping team to team because “management was bad” and they should count just as much, but we never run a scenario where jordan plays with other players of his time, imagine if jordan teamed up with Olajuwon, stockton or shaq around those times?

pippen was a fantastic player, but i believe wade is somewhat comparable, and i believe kyrie is very comparable at least on the scoring end of things, hell i can’t even imagine if jordan had an AD during his championship runs

[outofstomach]

And there's a trade off. Lebron had a slightly lesser scoring load but also had the entire playmaking responsibility as well, which Mj didn't have. Especially in the 2nd 3peat when he was mostly tasked with just getting buckets.
MJ was able to play PG if necessary (pretty sure there was a season where he lead in assists or he had at least had a very impressive season in the PG position if im recalling correctly) however it was wiser to allow him to score and to not ball dominate all the time

[Bronbron23]

Honestly depending on what you value i could see bron being anywhere from 1-10. I have him somewhere in the top 5. I don't really have my top 5 ranked because it's impossible tbh. I do have mj ahead of bron though

[tpols]

Top 7-12. GOAT longevity but can't produce a dynasty cieling like other GOATs...

Even when he had enough to do a self proclaimed "not 3, not 4, not 5" super team. But then was embarrased with GOAT choke in 2011 and biggest Finals margin of defeat in history in 2014. 1 shot away from losing 2013 as well.

[hold this L]

Anything lower than top 5 would be a complete joke.

[RRR3]

Ok when did Manny go anti-Lebron? :wtf:
Some of the LeBron stans made fun of him and he got so butthurt he became a hater.

[sdot_thadon]

didn’t say that he didn’t ask for help, i said he never colluded (jump ship team to team) i don’t care about the what if’s i care about what happened

i never understood how lebron gets a pass for jumping team to team because “management was bad” and they should count just as much, but we never run a scenario where jordan plays with other players of his time, imagine if jordan teamed up with Olajuwon, stockton or shaq around those times?

pippen was a fantastic player, but i believe wade is somewhat comparable, and i believe kyrie is very comparable at least on the scoring end of things, hell i can’t even imagine if jordan had an AD during his championship runs
I never understood how rational human beings can't make a connect the dots level thought without confusion. Nobody could move teams as they wanted in that era, so they didn't. As free agency became a big deal so did guys playing for different teams. From here on it will be rare to see guys sit in one spot. We have guys legit changing teams after winning the chip! Different eras have different charms man.


MJ was able to play PG if necessary (pretty sure there was a season where he lead in assists or he had at least had a very impressive season in the PG position if im recalling correctly) however it was wiser to allow him to score and to not ball dominate all the time
Mj did it and the team decided they'd never win that way and actually implemented an offense that had the primary objective of taking the ball out of his hands. That's never happend in Lebron's life, let alone his nba career. Just saying.

[SaintzFury13]

didn’t say that he didn’t ask for help, i said he never colluded (jump ship team to team) i don’t care about the what if’s i care about what happened

i never understood how lebron gets a pass for jumping team to team because “management was bad” and they should count just as much, but we never run a scenario where jordan plays with other players of his time, imagine if jordan teamed up with Olajuwon, stockton or shaq around those times?

pippen was a fantastic player, but i believe wade is somewhat comparable, and i believe kyrie is very comparable at least on the scoring end of things, hell i can’t even imagine if jordan had an AD during his championship runs

Because for starters, the very idea of your argument is counter intuitive. You just got done saying you don't care about what ifs. Now you suddenly are asking about what ifs and why we shouldn't give LeBron a pass for it. Either you care about what happened or you don't. You can't pick and choose here.

Moving on...

It's not a matter of moving team to team. Again, context matters. You need to look at every specific situation and understand the circumstances that led up to them.

No one in their right mind would deny that Miami was a super team. They absolutely were. But San Antonio still took Miami to seven games and were one shot away from sealing the deal in game 6. OKC was a very good team that kept the first four games of the 2012 Finals close. LeBron left Cleveland and went to Miami to give himself a better CHANCE to win. But by no means were those wins guarantees. LeBron still had to deliver a fantastic finals performance in 2012, and have two legendary close out performances in games 6 and 7 in 2013 in order to beat San Antonio. Those rings absolutely count. It's idiotic to try to pretend they don't simply because of the team he went to.

Jumping to Cleveland can be looked at in two ways. On one hand, it can be looked at as LeBron going back to the franchise he left in the first place because he had unfinished business. On the other hand, you can look at it as LeBron seeing an opportunity to further add to his legacy by being the one to end Cleveland's drought and they just so happened to have the roster pieces to give him the supporting cast he needed. Me? I choose to look at the latter, but by no means does that make me think any less of him going there. But with that said, Cleveland was still a young and unproven team, and in the end, he still had to win his title in Cleveland by producing one of the greatest finals series performances of all time against one of the greatest teams of all time.

So in other words, LeBron was the underdog in two of his three championship wins. There was no guarantee to any of his victories. He gave himself a better chance to achieve it, but in the end he still had to be the one to will his team to victory by any means necessary.

This is why people view LeBron's title wins in a more favorable light compared to, say, Durant's wins with Golden State. Golden State wasn't an unproven franchise with an incomplete roster. They literally just won 73 games the previous season and were in the finals the previous two seasons. They didn't need Durant to beat Cleveland. Cleveland had no realistic chance of beating Golden State in both 17 and 18.

I don't get what's so difficult to understand about that tbh.

[Manny98]

Some of the LeBron stans made fun of him and he got so butthurt he became a hater.
Why lie?

[90sgoat]

Ok when did Manny go anti-Lebron? :wtf:

I don't know, but it's good!

[outofstomach]

I never understood how rational human beings can't make a connect the dots level thought without confusion. Nobody could move teams as they wanted in that era, so they didn't. As free agency became a big deal so did guys playing for different teams. From here on it will be rare to see guys sit in one spot. We have guys legit changing teams after winning the chip! Different eras have different charms man.


Mj did it and the team decided they'd never win that way and actually implemented an offense that had the primary objective of taking the ball out of his hands. That's never happend in Lebron's life, let alone his nba career. Just saying.
yeah because ball dominators tend to not win championships… don’t mean to sound 3ball-y but it’s pretty obvious ball movement and team basketball wins more rings

it isn’t Jordan’s fault that he was better served as an amazing scorer rather than a facilitator

[outofstomach]

Because for starters, the very idea of your argument is counter intuitive. You just got done saying you don't care about what ifs. Now you suddenly are asking about what ifs and why we shouldn't give LeBron a pass for it. Either you care about what happened or you don't. You can't pick and choose here.

Moving on...

It's not a matter of moving team to team. Again, context matters. You need to look at every specific situation and understand the circumstances that led up to them.

No one in their right mind would deny that Miami was a super team. They absolutely were. But San Antonio still took Miami to seven games and were one shot away from sealing the deal in game 6. OKC was a very good team that kept the first four games of the 2012 Finals close. LeBron left Cleveland and went to Miami to give himself a better CHANCE to win. But by no means were those wins guarantees. LeBron still had to deliver a fantastic finals performance in 2012, and have two legendary close out performances in games 6 and 7 in 2013 in order to beat San Antonio. Those rings absolutely count. It's idiotic to try to pretend they don't simply because of the team he went to.

Jumping to Cleveland can be looked at in two ways. On one hand, it can be looked at as LeBron going back to the franchise he left in the first place because he had unfinished business. On the other hand, you can look at it as LeBron seeing an opportunity to further add to his legacy by being the one to end Cleveland's drought and they just so happened to have the roster pieces to give him the supporting cast he needed. Me? I choose to look at the latter, but by no means does that make me think any less of him going there. But with that said, Cleveland was still a young and unproven team, and in the end, he still had to win his title in Cleveland by producing one of the greatest finals series performances of all time against one of the greatest teams of all time.

So in other words, LeBron was the underdog in two of his three championship wins. There was no guarantee to any of his victories. He gave himself a better chance to achieve it, but in the end he still had to be the one to will his team to victory by any means necessary.

This is why people view LeBron's title wins in a more favorable light compared to, say, Durant's wins with Golden State. Golden State wasn't an unproven franchise with an incomplete roster. They literally just won 73 games the previous season and were in the finals the previous two seasons. They didn't need Durant to beat Cleveland. Cleveland had no realistic chance of beating Golden State in both 17 and 18.

I don't get what's so difficult to understand about that tbh.i said when you people run what if’s you always do it for jordan in a negative way, but never do it in a way where he would benefit from it.. it’s perfectly fine to imagine lebron in the 80s-90s era where he would supposedly dominate, but it isn’t okay to imagine jordan going team from to team making super teams…

removed from that, him almost losing to the Spurs with a super team detracts from his legacy rather than adding to it, jordan never played a game 7 in the finals, he always got the job done handily

you can dress up his move to Cleveland in any movie narratives that you want, the point is that as soon as it started getting bad in Miami, he moved to form another juggernaut, it’s literally that simple

underdog in what two series? i hope you’re not talking about the Spurs one, and 2016, curry was not 100%, draymond was suspended, and he had a fantastic second option (kyrie Irving) who doesn’t even get enough credit for his performance in the playoffs if you ask me

a team proven or unproven he had no competition in the East whatsoever, i still haven’t even gotten a team named that was supposed to be formidable opponents for them, because they did not exist, lebron’s cavs WERE the super team of the East, it was obvious they were coming out from the jump

[Hey Yo]

Ok when did Manny go anti-Lebron? :wtf:

Soon after his "ImKobe" alt got exposed.

[RRR3]

Why lie?
It’s the truth. Tell us where with hurts.

[Manny98]

It’s the truth. Tell us where with hurts.

Show the posts then of me getting "kicked out"

Oh wait you can't, I stopped stanning LeBron because I couldn't be bothered anymore to hype up a fraud and the stans have been lashing out at me ever since

[Hey Yo]

it makes them a super team in that relative conference, sorry to break it to you
So every team that has won their conference is a superteam?

Sounds like dumb logic.

[RRR3]

Show the posts then of me getting "kicked out"

Oh wait you can't, I stopped stanning LeBron because I couldn't be bothered anymore to hype up a fraud and the stans have been lashing out at me ever since
I don’t keep track of every post of yours lmao. We all know it happened. No one just stops being a fan after 3+ years of nonstop ballwashing. Imagine picking Durant to stan yikes, talk about low self awareness. Helpless without papa Curry.

[Hey Yo]

i said when you people run what if’s you always do it for jordan in a negative way, but never do it in a way where he would benefit from it.. it’s perfectly fine to imagine lebron in the 80s-90s era where he would supposedly dominate, but it isn’t okay to imagine jordan going team from to team making super teams…

removed from that, him almost losing to the Spurs with a super team detracts from his legacy rather than adding to it, jordan never played a game 7 in the finals, he always got the job done handily

you can dress up his move to Cleveland in any movie narratives that you want, the point is that as soon as it started getting bad in Miami, he moved to form another juggernaut, it’s literally that simple

underdog in what two series? i hope you’re not talking about the Spurs one, and 2016, curry was not 100%, draymond was suspended, and he had a fantastic second option (kyrie Irving) who doesn’t even get enough credit for his performance in the playoffs if you ask me

a team proven or unproven he had no competition in the East whatsoever, i still haven’t even gotten a team named that was supposed to be formidable opponents for them, because they did not exist, lebron’s cavs WERE the super team of the East, it was obvious they were coming out from the jump

LOL @ calling the Cavs and 2018 Lakers juggernauts.

Both were lottery teams when James signed. Change you name to... outofmyass

[8Ball]

Anything lower than top 5 would be a complete joke.

Curry fans know the truth.

Lebron fans know curry is hitting the top 10.

[outofstomach]

LOL @ calling the Cavs and 2018 Lakers juggernauts.

Both were lottery teams when James signed. Change you name to... outofmyassyeah because i was totally talking about those particular teams of that year, and not the kyrie-love-lebron era

please stay out of this conversation while the adults are talking , ****ing idiot :lol

[sdot_thadon]

yeah because ball dominators tend to not win championships… don’t mean to sound 3ball-y but it’s pretty obvious ball movement and team basketball wins more rings
Whenever you don't mean to sound like an idiot, it's because you sound like an idiot. Narratives are nice, but grownups don't let them rule us. Before Mj could even get to the finals the narrative was you couldn't win with a scoring champ, you couldn't win without a pivot presence.....until Mj did. You couldn't win being ball dominant...until Lebron did. You cant win a chip relying on jumpshooting.....until the Warriors did it. You can win any kind of way as long as you're good enough. Some ways are easier than others. They all count as a ring at the end of the day.



it isn’t Jordan’s fault that he was better served as an amazing scorer rather than a facilitator
It isn't Lebron's fault he is better served as the hub of the offense. Common sense says use your strengths.

[Hey Yo]

yeah because i was totally talking about those particular teams of that year, and not the kyrie-love-lebron era

please stay out of this conversation while the adults are talking , ****ing idiot :lol
Adults dont call the 2015 -2018 Cavs juggernauts. Varejao may have been the only player with postseason experience when James signed. It matters who's on the team when you sign, not after if citing a juggernaut team. Signing/trading for players after the fact is what teams are suppose to do. That how champion teams are built.

To say that players brought in afterwards is a blemish to LeBron is really fukking dumb. Teams are suppose to build around their best players.

[Axe]

I don't know why you're laughing. You literally provide nothing valuable to any thread based on what I've seen so far. All you do is come into threads and piggy back off of the laughable opinions of other posters who share your thoughts because you aren't smart enough to convey them into your own words.
:lol

He's a literal crackhead. He once made a thread about stephen curry winning his first finals mvp way back in 2015 when the warriors won their chip for the first time in 40 years.

[outofstomach]

Whenever you don't mean to sound like an idiot, it's because you sound like an idiot. Narratives are nice, but grownups don't let them rule us. Before Mj could even get to the finals the narrative was you couldn't win with a scoring champ, you couldn't win without a pivot presence.....until Mj did. You couldn't win being ball dominant...until Lebron did. You cant win a chip relying on jumpshooting.....until the Warriors did it. You can win any kind of way as long as you're good enough. Some ways are easier than others. They all count as a ring at the end of the day.


It isn't Lebron's fault he is better served as the hub of the offense. Common sense says use your strengths.who’s style was more conducive for winning?

[outofstomach]

Adults dont call the 2015 -2018 Cavs juggernauts. Varejao may have been the only player with postseason experience when James signed. It matters who's on the team when you sign, not after if citing a juggernaut team. Signing/trading for players after the fact is what teams are suppose to do. That how champion teams are built.

To say that players brought in afterwards is a blemish to LeBron is really fukking dumb. Teams are suppose to build around their best players.
yeah you’re right you are

you aren’t supposed to request superstars from every single team and then jump ship when it starts getting tough, if you respect that, that’s cool but i personally don’t and don’t see why i would

ultimately jordan stayed on one team, adapted his playing style, was a great leader and was a very dominant player throughout his entire run, that’s why i prefer him, if you prefer lebron that’s cool

i gave you my reasoning, if you think it’s “dumb” then i’d put forth you’re arguing in bad faith regardless

[Axe]

Curry fans know the truth.

Lebron fans know curry is hitting the top 10.
Unfortunately, not having a finals mvp along with no iconic playoff moments until now only hurts that possibility.

[coin24]

20.

Shameless ring chasing and team hopping

[SaintzFury13]

i said when you people run what if’s you always do it for jordan in a negative way, but never do it in a way where he would benefit from it.. it’s perfectly fine to imagine lebron in the 80s-90s era where he would supposedly dominate, but it isn’t okay to imagine jordan going team from to team making super teams…

Who is out here doing it in a negative way for Jordan?


removed from that, him almost losing to the Spurs with a super team detracts from his legacy rather than adding to it

How? The Spurs were an elite team that had been there and done that. They never lost in an NBA finals before. LeBron was the clear cut best player on Miami in that series and needed two historic performances to will them to victory. How is that a detractor against his legacy?

This is the problem with the superteam argument. It ignores both context and logic. Yeah LeBron had all star teammates but wanna know how much good that did him? Wade barely averaged 20 points that series. Bosh struggled offensively against Duncan and averaged a measly 11 PPG for that series. So what difference does it make if LeBron had a superteam or not? He still had to be the clear cut best player just to give his team a chance to win.


jordan never played a game 7 in the finals, he always got the job done handily

Jordan never went to the NBA Finals as the underdog. Jordan never faced a literal dynasty like the Spurs. He never faced a team that was clearly better than his before. LeBron's never had a teammate like Scottie Pippen before who did everything else while he only had to focus on one thing. Hell, going back to 2013 for a minute, LeBron had to be the one to guard Tony Parker because no one else on the team could guard him. This is on top of also being the one who ran the offense and was the number one option on offense.

Don't talk to me about what Jordan's never had to deal with. Jordan is the GOAT but it's a well known fact by now that Jordan not only never played the level of competition LeBron went up against, but he always had the superior team with players who did most of the dirty work for him, especially in the second threepeat. But since we're talking about nevers... LeBron never needed his third best player to bail him out of an entire series like Jordan did in 96 and then took all the credit for it.


you can dress up his move to Cleveland in any movie narratives that you want, the point is that as soon as it started getting bad in Miami, he moved to form another juggernaut, it’s literally that simple

If he went to form another juggernaut then he did a terrible job of it. He went to Cleveland and his two new all star teammates were guys who couldn't play defense and had consistent injury issues. And the team didn't even become elite until they traded for Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert. You want to tell me he left because the going got tough in Miami? All they would have needed was a key player pick up and they would have been fine. You can claim he didn't go to Cleveland out of the goodness of his heart, but to even claim he went there because it'd be easier is both laughable and incorrect.


underdog in what two series? i hope you’re not talking about the Spurs one, and 2016, curry was not 100%, draymond was suspended, and he had a fantastic second option (kyrie Irving) who doesn’t even get enough credit for his performance in the playoffs if you ask me

I actually don't know why I said two of his three championships. Miami was most certainly not the underdog in 2013 (in 2014 San Antonio was favored).

And 2016 isn't arguable. The Cavaliers were clearly the underdogs and Golden State was clearly the better team. No, I don't care if Curry was not 100%. That didn't stop Golden State from taking the first two games by a record margin and game 4 by double digits. Yes, Draymond got suspended in game 5. That's his own fault. They still had game 6 and 7 to win and Cleveland instead took both games.

And Kyrie Irving gets the exact amount of credit that he deserves. His game 5 performance and the shot he hit in game 7 get praise, as they should. But Irving was also a liability throughout the entire series, including game 7 where he almost threw the ball away after Love locked up Curry in the final minute. In game 1, a game that was very winnable for Cleveland, Irving not only continuously shot Cleveland out of key possessions, but he got lit up on defense by Shaun Livingston, Golden State's seventh or eight best player on the team. Hell, Kevin Love was actually much better for Cleveland in that game than Irving was. In game 2 he was somehow even worse, scoring only 10 points on 31% shooting from the field. Game 3 he did great and in game 4 he did great offensively, but once again he allowed himself to get lit up on defense over and over again. And in game 6, he was almost non existent again while LeBron had to carry Cleveland to a win to force a game 7.

So in other words, no. Kyrie Irving was not a "fantastic second option". He was, at best, a good second option who still did enough harm to the point where it's hard to really praise him for his performance as a whole.


a team proven or unproven he had no competition in the East whatsoever, i still haven’t even gotten a team named that was supposed to be formidable opponents for them, because they did not exist, lebron’s cavs WERE the super team of the East, it was obvious they were coming out from the jump

Coming out from the jump? They started the season 19-20. That's 39 games into an 82 game season below .500. There were already talks about trading Kevin Love to another team because the Cavaliers were just that bad. They didn't become a truly elite team until they made key trades. At that point they finally started playing like a team that had their shit together.

And yeah, of course you can't find any, because LeBron beat them all. Of course people are going to sit here and act like he had no competition. The 2017 Golden State Warriors had no competition in the West, that doesn't mean there weren't any formidable opponents. They were just that much better. The 2015 Hawks won 60 games and had four all star players. That's a formidable team. The Chicago Bulls were still a formidable team. It's just like the people who look at what happened in 2018 in the series between the Cavaliers and Raptors where LeBron's team swept them and act like that's somehow an example of Toronto being a joke of a team. LeBron and Love were just dominant. You want to talk about blatant double standards? People like you pretend to act like Jordan's wins were due to his dominance and not to due to his opponents underperforming. And granted, it usually was due to his dominance. But why are we suddenly now acting like LeBron's wins weren't due to HIS dominance? Why does Jordan get the benefit of the doubt but LeBron doesn't? A man is literally hitting contested fadeway shots form everywhere on the floor and that's somehow due to Toronto not "belonging" there. You tell me how that makes any sense.

[SaintzFury13]

Dwight wasn't the same player because of injuries dumbass

Again, it doesn't matter. Going by YOUR LOGIC, the Lakers are still a superteam because of what Dwight was doing the year before. I don't care what injuries he had. Injuries, role on a team, the only thing that matters in the end is your production on the court. So if the Lakers are not a superteam, then the Cavaliers are not a superteam.

[outofstomach]

Who is out here doing it in a negative way for Jordan?



How? The Spurs were an elite team that had been there and done that. They never lost in an NBA finals before. LeBron was the clear cut best player on Miami in that series and needed two historic performances to will them to victory. How is that a detractor against his legacy?

This is the problem with the superteam argument. It ignores both context and logic. Yeah LeBron had all star teammates but wanna know how much good that did him? Wade barely averaged 20 points that series. Bosh struggled offensively against Duncan and averaged a measly 11 PPG for that series. So what difference does it make if LeBron had a superteam or not? He still had to be the clear cut best player just to give his team a chance to win.



Jordan never went to the NBA Finals as the underdog. Jordan never faced a literal dynasty like the Spurs. He never faced a team that was clearly better than his before. LeBron's never had a teammate like Scottie Pippen before who did everything else while he only had to focus on one thing. Hell, going back to 2013 for a minute, LeBron had to be the one to guard Tony Parker because no one else on the team could guard him. This is on top of also being the one who ran the offense and was the number one option on offense.

Don't talk to me about what Jordan's never had to deal with. Jordan is the GOAT but it's a well known fact by now that Jordan not only never played the level of competition LeBron went up against, but he always had the superior team with players who did most of the dirty work for him, especially in the second threepeat. But since we're talking about nevers... LeBron never needed his third best player to bail him out of an entire series like Jordan did in 96 and then took all the credit for it.



If he went to form another juggernaut then he did a terrible job of it. He went to Cleveland and his two new all star teammates were guys who couldn't play defense and had consistent injury issues. And the team didn't even become elite until they traded for Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert. You want to tell me he left because the going got tough in Miami? All they would have needed was a key player pick up and they would have been fine. You can claim he didn't go to Cleveland out of the goodness of his heart, but to even claim he went there because it'd be easier is both laughable and incorrect.



I actually don't know why I said two of his three championships. Miami was most certainly not the underdog in 2013 (in 2014 San Antonio was favored).

And 2016 isn't arguable. The Cavaliers were clearly the underdogs and Golden State was clearly the better team. No, I don't care if Curry was not 100%. That didn't stop Golden State from taking the first two games by a record margin and game 4 by double digits. Yes, Draymond got suspended in game 5. That's his own fault. They still had game 6 and 7 to win and Cleveland instead took both games.

And Kyrie Irving gets the exact amount of credit that he deserves. His game 5 performance and the shot he hit in game 7 get praise, as they should. But Irving was also a liability throughout the entire series, including game 7 where he almost threw the ball away after Love locked up Curry in the final minute. In game 1, a game that was very winnable for Cleveland, Irving not only continuously shot Cleveland out of key possessions, but he got lit up on defense by Shaun Livingston, Golden State's seventh or eight best player on the team. Hell, Kevin Love was actually much better for Cleveland in that game than Irving was. In game 2 he was somehow even worse, scoring only 10 points on 31% shooting from the field. Game 3 he did great and in game 4 he did great offensively, but once again he allowed himself to get lit up on defense over and over again. And in game 6, he was almost non existent again while LeBron had to carry Cleveland to a win to force a game 7.

So in other words, no. Kyrie Irving was not a "fantastic second option". He was, at best, a good second option who still did enough harm to the point where it's hard to really praise him for his performance as a whole.



Coming out from the jump? They started the season 19-20. That's 39 games into an 82 game season below .500. There were already talks about trading Kevin Love to another team because the Cavaliers were just that bad. They didn't become a truly elite team until they made key trades. At that point they finally started playing like a team that had their shit together.

And yeah, of course you can't find any, because LeBron beat them all. Of course people are going to sit here and act like he had no competition. The 2017 Golden State Warriors had no competition in the West, that doesn't mean there weren't any formidable opponents. They were just that much better. The 2015 Hawks won 60 games and had four all star players. That's a formidable team. The Chicago Bulls were still a formidable team. It's just like the people who look at what happened in 2018 in the series between the Cavaliers and Raptors where LeBron's team swept them and act like that's somehow an example of Toronto being a joke of a team. LeBron and Love were just dominant. You want to talk about blatant double standards? People like you pretend to act like Jordan's wins were due to his dominance and not to due to his opponents underperforming. And granted, it usually was due to his dominance. But why are we suddenly now acting like LeBron's wins weren't due to HIS dominance? Why does Jordan get the benefit of the doubt but LeBron doesn't? A man is literally hitting contested fadeway shots form everywhere on the floor and that's somehow due to Toronto not "belonging" there. You tell me how that makes any sense.
one of the classic arguments against Jordan is that he would not score in this era (which is mind-boggling with all of the spacing and amount of touch fouls called nowadays) it’s also said he wouldn’t be able to adapt to shooting a lot of 3 pointers, you may not do it, but it is definitely done.

the Spurs were an elite team in the sense that they were greater than the sum of their parts… they were not stacked by any stretch of the imagination, all they did was play a better brand of basketball along with brilliant coaching to bring home the title, lebron tried to take the easy way out by colluding and stacking the deck and he still lost, they were not stacked and insurmountable. wade and bosh struggled because of brilliant defense, it’s almost like when you stack the deck and then run into a team that knows how to scheme against it, it doesn’t work out like it’s supposed to?

using preseason odds as some sort of light house for your argument is not going to work here. underdog or not the point is that jordan always got the job done and more than always exceeded expectations, not only did he handle a scoring load, he also played amazing defense (enough that he won DPOY…) lebron needed a rotating cast of stars and all stars in order to succeed while jordan needed one or two constants in addition to good role players. it’s somewhat consensus that jordan faced tougher competition getting to the finals, and that lebron faced tougher competition in the finals, and i guarantee you if he played in the west those 8 straight finals do not happen whatsoever.

just another key player? it was an aging roster and they were all becoming jaded with one another, you’re definitely oversimplifying that completely

[outofstomach]

Who is out here doing it in a negative way for Jordan?



How? The Spurs were an elite team that had been there and done that. They never lost in an NBA finals before. LeBron was the clear cut best player on Miami in that series and needed two historic performances to will them to victory. How is that a detractor against his legacy?



If he went to form another juggernaut then he did a terrible job of it. He went to Cleveland and his two new all star teammates were guys who couldn't play defense and had consistent injury issues. And the team didn't even become elite until they traded for Mozgov, Smith and Shumpert. You want to tell me he left because the going got tough in Miami? All they would have needed was a key player pick up and they would have been fine. You can claim he didn't go to Cleveland out of the goodness of his heart, but to even claim he went there because it'd be easier is both laughable and incorrect.



I actually don't know why I said two of his three championships. Miami was most certainly not the underdog in 2013 (in 2014 San Antonio was favored).

And 2016 isn't arguable. The Cavaliers were clearly the underdogs and Golden State was clearly the better team. No, I don't care if Curry was not 100%. That didn't stop Golden State from taking the first two games by a record margin and game 4 by double digits. Yes, Draymond got suspended in game 5. That's his own fault. They still had game 6 and 7 to win and Cleveland instead took both games.

And Kyrie Irving gets the exact amount of credit that he deserves. His game 5 performance and the shot he hit in game 7 get praise, as they should. But Irving was also a liability throughout the entire series, including game 7 where he almost threw the ball away after Love locked up Curry in the final minute. In game 1, a game that was very winnable for Cleveland, Irving not only continuously shot Cleveland out of key possessions, but he got lit up on defense by Shaun Livingston, Golden State's seventh or eight best player on the team. Hell, Kevin Love was actually much better for Cleveland in that game than Irving was. In game 2 he was somehow even worse, scoring only 10 points on 31% shooting from the field. Game 3 he did great and in game 4 he did great offensively, but once again he allowed himself to get lit up on defense over and over again. And in game 6, he was almost non existent again while LeBron had to carry Cleveland to a win to force a game 7.

So in other words, no. Kyrie Irving was not a "fantastic second option". He was, at best, a good second option who still did enough harm to the point where it's hard to really praise him for his performance as a whole.



Coming out from the jump? They started the season 19-20. That's 39 games into an 82 game season below .500. There were already talks about trading Kevin Love to another team because the Cavaliers were just that bad. They didn't become a truly elite team until they made key trades. At that point they finally started playing like a team that had their shit together.

And yeah, of course you can't find any, because LeBron beat them all. Of course people are going to sit here and act like he had no competition. The 2017 Golden State Warriors had no competition in the West, that doesn't mean there weren't any formidable opponents. They were just that much better. The 2015 Hawks won 60 games and had four all star players. That's a formidable team. The Chicago Bulls were still a formidable team. It's just like the people who look at what happened in 2018 in the series between the Cavaliers and Raptors where LeBron's team swept them and act like that's somehow an example of Toronto being a joke of a team. LeBron and Love were just dominant. You want to talk about blatant double standards? People like you pretend to act like Jordan's wins were due to his dominance and not to due to his opponents underperforming. And granted, it usually was due to his dominance. But why are we suddenly now acting like LeBron's wins weren't due to HIS dominance? Why does Jordan get the benefit of the doubt but LeBron doesn't? A man is literally hitting contested fadeway shots form everywhere on the floor and that's somehow due to Toronto not "belonging" there. You tell me how that makes any sense. golden state looked mortal throughout that entire post-season, they were in the midst of being blown out by the Spurs before kawhi got zaza’d, they were also down 3-1 to OKC, they were an absolutely fantastic team, but it was obvious they weren’t as great as it is they were perceived to be, you remove draymond from any of those two series i guarantee you that they end up eliminated. every starter is essential in a championship team, and it’s rare that it’s ever the other case period. Kyrie does not get enough credit for his entire post season performance whatsoever, if it wasn’t for him quite literally outplaying curry for most of that entire series, it wouldn’t even had set up lebron to have performances of that caliber in the first place, there are games where kyrie was obviously better than lebron

Game 3

James 32 pts 6 ast 5 TO 56.7%TS, 115 ORTG, +24
Irving 30 pts 8 ast 3 TO 57%TS, 135 ORTG, +24

Game 5

James 41 pts 7 ast 2 TO 61.2%TS, 132 ORTG, +13
Irving 41 pts 6 ast 4 TO 82.4%TS, 146 ORTG, +20

Game 7

James 27 pts 11 ast 5 TO 47.5%TS, 98 ORTG +4
Irving 26 pts 1 ast 2 TO 52.5%TS, 106 ORTG +10

you also say that kyrie was a liability on defense and yet he averaged over 2 steals and was 3rd in blocks as well.. what are you going to say to this? because lebron’s stats are apparently infinitely valid removed from context or not, kyrie also played less minutes than lebron did this series and averaged similar numbers, if you also actually sit down and watch the games, kyrie is the one who started clutch rallies and stopped the bleeding as well, kyrie set the tempo. the eye test proves it.

you did all that typing and still didn’t tell me any formidable opponents that lebron faced in the East, you know why? because it literally did not exist. and to say Jordan’s opponents underperformed every single post-season run sounds very agenda-driven and nonsensical, you’re telling me every single time jordan won it was due to his opponents not performing up to standard? or maybe it was because of amazing team defense and Jordan’s relentless scoring throughout the entire run? the hawks were obviously fraudulent, the bulls :lol :lol i can’t believe you even said that

and no one ever took the Raptors seriously as a threat, especially with Derozan spearheading that team, derozan was always known as an empty calorie scorer who could never get the job done when it was necessary

he’s hitting fadeaway shots on what defenders? who is a threat to lebron during that run?

[outofstomach]

overall it comes to preference, i gave you my argumentation and reasoning, you’re not inclined to agree with it whatsoever

i don’t respect lebron’s style of play or his game, i think it’s hideous and based mainly around his athleticism, the part of his game i always respected the most was his basketball IQ, it’s insanely high and he’s an extremely smart player

he wasn’t as dominant as any of the other all time greats when it came down to their “eras” i don’t respect his colluding or team jumping either

i prefer jordan and i rest my case

[Axe]

Don't talk to me about what Jordan's never had to deal with. Jordan is the GOAT but it's a well known fact by now that Jordan not only never played the level of competition LeBron went up against, but he always had the superior team with players who did most of the dirty work for him, especially in the second threepeat. But since we're talking about nevers... LeBron never needed his third best player to bail him out of an entire series like Jordan did in 96 and then took all the credit for it.

Lol that's because jordan's team was the dynasty to face during that decade. So i guess it's sort of natural unless a hampered 91 lakers team is still considered a dynasty even if they won more during the showtime 80s era. Also there's no use in convincing these haters to like kong, despite your effort to build those walls of texts.

[3ba11]

golden state looked mortal throughout that entire post-season, they were in the midst of being blown out by the Spurs before kawhi got zaza’d, they were also down 3-1 to OKC, they were an absolutely fantastic team, but it was obvious they weren’t as great as it is they were perceived to be, you remove draymond from any of those two series i guarantee you that they end up eliminated. every starter is essential in a championship team, and it’s rare that it’s ever the other case period. Kyrie does not get enough credit for his entire post season performance whatsoever, if it wasn’t for him quite literally outplaying curry for most of that entire series, it wouldn’t even had set up lebron to have performances of that caliber in the first place, there are games where kyrie was obviously better than lebron

Game 3

James 32 pts 6 ast 5 TO 56.7%TS, 115 ORTG, +24
Irving 30 pts 8 ast 3 TO 57%TS, 135 ORTG, +24

Game 5

James 41 pts 7 ast 2 TO 61.2%TS, 132 ORTG, +13
Irving 41 pts 6 ast 4 TO 82.4%TS, 146 ORTG, +20

Game 7

James 27 pts 11 ast 5 TO 47.5%TS, 98 ORTG +4
Irving 26 pts 1 ast 2 TO 52.5%TS, 106 ORTG +10

you also say that kyrie was a liability on defense and yet he averaged over 2 steals and was 3rd in blocks as well.. what are you going to say to this? because lebron’s stats are apparently infinitely valid removed from context or not, kyrie also played less minutes than lebron did this series and averaged similar numbers, if you also actually sit down and watch the games, kyrie is the one who started clutch rallies and stopped the bleeding as well, kyrie set the tempo. the eye test proves it.

you did all that typing and still didn’t tell me any formidable opponents that lebron faced in the East, you know why? because it literally did not exist. and to say Jordan’s opponents underperformed every single post-season run sounds very agenda-driven and nonsensical, you’re telling me every single time jordan won it was due to his opponents not performing up to standard? or maybe it was because of amazing team defense and Jordan’s relentless scoring throughout the entire run? the hawks were obviously fraudulent, the bulls :lol :lol i can’t believe you even said that

and no one ever took the Raptors seriously as a threat, especially with Derozan spearheading that team, derozan was always known as an empty calorie scorer who could never get the job done when it was necessary

he’s hitting fadeaway shots on what defenders? who is a threat to lebron during that run?


Wow Saintz got destroyed and ran

Ultimately, the only way that Jordan's ring quality could be as low as Lebron's 2016 ring is if Pippen destroyed MVP Barkley or Malone in the Finals like Kyrie did Curry...

So all 6 of Jordan's rings are far superior to Lebron's 2016 ring, where Kyrie matched Lebron's stats all series long, as your post demonstrates - otoh, pippen never came anywhere near Jordan statistically in any series

[Axe]

And yeah, of course you can't find any, because LeBron beat them all. Of course people are going to sit here and act like he had no competition. The 2017 Golden State Warriors had no competition in the West, that doesn't mean there weren't any formidable opponents. They were just that much better. The 2015 Hawks won 60 games and had four all star players. That's a formidable team. The Chicago Bulls were still a formidable team. It's just like the people who look at what happened in 2018 in the series between the Cavaliers and Raptors where LeBron's team swept them and act like that's somehow an example of Toronto being a joke of a team. LeBron and Love were just dominant. You want to talk about blatant double standards? People like you pretend to act like Jordan's wins were due to his dominance and not to due to his opponents underperforming. And granted, it usually was due to his dominance. But why are we suddenly now acting like LeBron's wins weren't due to HIS dominance? Why does Jordan get the benefit of the doubt but LeBron doesn't? A man is literally hitting contested fadeway shots form everywhere on the floor and that's somehow due to Toronto not "belonging" there. You tell me how that makes any sense.
Since you mentioned that jordan never faced a literal dynasty team in the 90s, people act that his competition is garbage too. To the point that someone had to ask what's his best ring multiple times. It's a hilarious affair tbh.

[Axe]

golden state looked mortal throughout that entire post-season, they were in the midst of being blown out by the Spurs before kawhi got zaza’d, they were also down 3-1 to OKC, they were an absolutely fantastic team, but it was obvious they weren’t as great as it is they were perceived to be, you remove draymond from any of those two series i guarantee you that they end up eliminated. every starter is essential in a championship team, and it’s rare that it’s ever the other case period. Kyrie does not get enough credit for his entire post season performance whatsoever, if it wasn’t for him quite literally outplaying curry for most of that entire series, it wouldn’t even had set up lebron to have performances of that caliber in the first place, there are games where kyrie was obviously better than lebron

Game 3

James 32 pts 6 ast 5 TO 56.7%TS, 115 ORTG, +24
Irving 30 pts 8 ast 3 TO 57%TS, 135 ORTG, +24

Game 5

James 41 pts 7 ast 2 TO 61.2%TS, 132 ORTG, +13
Irving 41 pts 6 ast 4 TO 82.4%TS, 146 ORTG, +20

Game 7

James 27 pts 11 ast 5 TO 47.5%TS, 98 ORTG +4
Irving 26 pts 1 ast 2 TO 52.5%TS, 106 ORTG +10

you also say that kyrie was a liability on defense and yet he averaged over 2 steals and was 3rd in blocks as well.. what are you going to say to this? because lebron’s stats are apparently infinitely valid removed from context or not, kyrie also played less minutes than lebron did this series and averaged similar numbers, if you also actually sit down and watch the games, kyrie is the one who started clutch rallies and stopped the bleeding as well, kyrie set the tempo. the eye test proves it.
By this, then it should also mean that scottie pippen is valuable to the team too. Mj doesn't get six rings without him and we saw what happened to him without pip by his side.


you did all that typing and still didn’t tell me any formidable opponents that lebron faced in the East, you know why? because it literally did not exist. and to say Jordan’s opponents underperformed every single post-season run sounds very agenda-driven and nonsensical, you’re telling me every single time jordan won it was due to his opponents not performing up to standard? or maybe it was because of amazing team defense and Jordan’s relentless scoring throughout the entire run? the hawks were obviously fraudulent, the bulls :lol :lol i can’t believe you even said that

and no one ever took the Raptors seriously as a threat, especially with Derozan spearheading that team, derozan was always known as an empty calorie scorer who could never get the job done when it was necessary

he’s hitting fadeaway shots on what defenders? who is a threat to lebron during that run?
The 2018 celtics won 55 games and met the cavs in that year's ecf. They took a 2-0 lead and the series went to seven games, which they lost in game 7 unfortunately. But they did all of that without hayward and kyrie in the lineup. One year later, kyrie played in the playoffs for the first time outside of a cavaliers uniform but they lost to the favored bucks team in five games during the 2019 semifinals.

[3ba11]

Since you mentioned that jordan never faced a literal dynasty team in the 90s, people act that his competition is garbage too. To the point that someone had to ask what's his best ring multiple times. It's a hilarious affair tbh.


Jordan didn't have a super-team, so who cares if he faced one - that's the point.

Jordan beat non-super-teams with a non-super-team.. Otoh, Lebron had super-teams and never beat any.. He never beat the KD Warriors and otherwise, only Lebron had super-teams from 2011-2016, when he hand-picked the preaseason favorite every year.

You guys simply ignore the facts and make up your own reality, and then say that I'm the crazy one... lol.. it's hilarious - you guys are literally delusional and making up your own facts - that's some crazy for that azz

[Axe]

Jordan didn't have a super-team, so who cares if he faced one - that's the point.

Jordan beat non-super-teams with a non-super-team.. Otoh, Lebron had super-teams and never beat any.. He never beat the KD Warriors and otherwise, only Lebron had super-teams from 2011-2016, when he hand-picked the preaseason favorite every year.

You guys simply ignore the facts and make up your own reality, and then say that I'm the crazy one... lol.. it's hilarious - you guys are literally delusional and making up your own facts - that's some crazy for that azz
Rubbish. Doesn't change the fact that kong still has two more finals mvps than your precious hero black mamba.

[outofstomach]

By this, then it should also mean that scottie pippen is valuable to the team too. Mj doesn't get six rings without him and we saw what happened to him without pip by his side.


The 2018 celtics won 55 games and met the cavs in that year's ecf. They took a 2-0 lead and the series went to seven games, which they lost in game 7 unfortunately. But they did all of that without hayward and kyrie in the lineup. One year later, kyrie played in the playoffs for the first time outside of a cavaliers uniform but they lost to the favored bucks team in five games during the 2019 semifinals.

i didn’t discredit pippen at all, i acknowledge that he was a great player and pretty important to the team, that isn’t my issue. my issue is colluding and getting immense credit for it

that 2018 celtics team was good, but again, no one realistically thought they would end up beating lebron a literal playoff veteran, versus a rookie led squad? that would’ve been absolutely embarrassing, it isn’t formidable competition

it’s amazing how much credit lebron gets for beating these weak ass teams while harden is constantly shit on for struggling against dynasties and teams that were actually fantastic

[Axe]

i didn’t discredit pippen at all, i acknowledge that he was a great player and pretty important to the team, that isn’t my issue. my issue is colluding and getting immense credit for it
Ah i see. Some mj or kobe stans, like 3ball, ImKobe and tpols think that scottie pippen is a nonsense player just because his scoring numbers are quite average lol.


that 2018 celtics team was good, but again, no one realistically thought they would end up beating lebron a literal playoff veteran, versus a rookie led squad? that would’ve been absolutely embarrassing, it isn’t formidable competition
Well they almost did it but there seems to be a case of kyrie irving being detrimental to that team in the playoffs.


it’s amazing how much credit lebron gets for beating these weak ass teams while harden is constantly shit on for struggling against dynasties and teams that were actually fantastic
Idk about harden but kong usually gets laughed at for having a losing record in the finals.

[outofstomach]

Wow Saintz got destroyed and ran

Ultimately, the only way that Jordan's ring quality could be as low as Lebron's 2016 ring is if Pippen destroyed MVP Barkley or Malone in the Finals like Kyrie did Curry...

So all 6 of Jordan's rings are far superior to Lebron's 2016 ring, where Kyrie matched Lebron's stats all series long, as your post demonstrates - otoh, pippen never came anywhere near Jordan statistically in any series
i can’t even imagine the narratives and the agendas that would be compiled if pippen consistently touched jordan in terms of scoring, but since it’s taken for granted that jordan had such a polished skill set to score at will and come up with buckets when needed, everything else that pippen and Rodman did in terms of support is emphasized and seen as more impressive which is mind boggling, because in spite of the team being constructed brilliantly, jordan is the only player who had the skill set to push the offense over the top to produce championships along with fantastic defense and shaping players to play their role the way they are supposed to

not only did Jordan win when he was supposed to, was dominant, and has two three peats under his name, he did it with MORE SKILL

i rest my case

[Axe]

i can’t even imagine the narratives and the agendas that would be compiled if pippen consistently touched jordan in terms of scoring, but since it’s taken for granted that jordan had such a polished skill set to score at will and come up with buckets when needed, everything else that pippen and Rodman did in terms of support is emphasized and seen as more impressive which is mind boggling, because in spite of the team being constructed brilliantly, jordan is the only player who had the skill set to push the offense over the top to produce championships along with fantastic defense and shaping players to play their role the way they are supposed to

not only did Jordan win when he was supposed to, was dominant, and has two three peats under his name, he did it with MORE SKILL

i rest my case
What is your opinion about jordan's finals competition tho?

[outofstomach]

Ah i see. Some mj or kobe stans, like 3ball, ImKobe and tpols think that scottie pippen is a nonsense player just because his scoring numbers are quite average lol.


Well they almost did it but there seems to be a case of kyrie irving being detrimental to that team in the playoffs.


Idk about harden but kong usually gets laughed at for having a losing record in the finals.
honestly that team suffered from way too many wannabe first options, it was obvious that team was extremely dysfunctional with kyrie not being satisfied with the way the team was being ran, tatum refused to take a step back and allow kyrie to be in fully control of the reins etc

if you look at the team when he left tatum and brown both blossomed into a one two punch, rozier is now somewhat of a scorer himself since he left as well, it honestly just wasn’t a very good set up for kyrie at all (although kyrie admittedly did make questionable comments and didn’t set a very good locker room presence as well) but regardless, they were just your averagely good East team, no one deemed them an actual threat, and they certainly were no threat for the warriors that year whatsoever

if they had gotten past the cavs somehow and my rockets had met them that year, they would’ve been swept very handily

[outofstomach]

What is your opinion about jordan's finals competition tho?

i will always concede and admit to a point that jordan’s finals competition definitely does not compare to the Warriors’ dynasty whatsoever, however GETTING to the finals was much tougher and he consistently showed up for those series most of those three peats.

jordan’s finals competition were no pushovers, but i don’t think they compare to how ridiculously stacked the warriors were once they added KD, it is worthy to note however, that KD simply did what lebron did and “took his talents” to where he would be guaranteed the best shots at winning a championship, he didn’t join the monolith Celtics that constantly handed his ass to him (which would’ve been embarrassing) but he saw an opportunity and simply took it a step further than lebron would’ve ever did

if you don’t want to face super teams, don’t start the trend (and i don’t care to be quoted with “hurr durr there were always super teams da da da” lebron sparked super teams back up in the MODERN ERA. that’s what happened and that’s what matters)

[3ba11]

Ah i see. Some mj or kobe stans, like 3ball, ImKobe and tpols think that scottie pippen is a nonsense player just because his scoring numbers are quite average lol.





The only runs where Pippen was viable was 91' playoffs and most of 92' (aside from the X-man debacle that nearly derailed the repeat).. Otherwise, he was literally bad every other year of his playoff career (88-90' and 93-03')..

His PER and WS/48 is the worst-ever for winning sidekick in 93', while his TS, BPM and VORP was nearly the worst-ever... He was destroyed by Ewing in the 94' Playoffs (21.7 on 40%) and lost the 95' 2nd Round by averaging 19 on 40% - aka Pandemic Pippen... Then he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 11 ppg in the 99-03' Playoffs..

So Pippen was bad for nearly his entire playoff career, yet MJ won 6 chips with him!! GOAT

[Axe]

honestly that team suffered from way too many wannabe first options, it was obvious that team was extremely dysfunctional with kyrie not being satisfied with the way the team was being ran, tatum refused to take a step back and allow kyrie to be in fully control of the reins etc

if you look at the team when he left tatum and brown both blossomed into a one two punch, rozier is now somewhat of a scorer himself since he left as well, it honestly just wasn’t a very good set up for kyrie at all (although kyrie admittedly did make questionable comments and didn’t set a very good locker room presence as well) but regardless, they were just your averagely good East team, no one deemed them an actual threat, and they certainly were no threat for the warriors that year whatsoever

if they had gotten past the cavs somehow and my rockets had met them that year, they would’ve been swept very handily

i will always concede and admit to a point that jordan’s finals competition definitely does not compare to the Warriors’ dynasty whatsoever, however GETTING to the finals was much tougher and he consistently showed up for those series most of those three peats.

jordan’s finals competition were no pushovers, but i don’t think they compare to how ridiculously stacked the warriors were once they added KD, it is worthy to note however, that KD simply did what lebron did and “took his talents” to where he would be guaranteed the best shots at winning a championship, he didn’t join the monolith Celtics that constantly handed his ass to him (which would’ve been embarrassing) but he saw an opportunity and simply took it a step further than lebron would’ve ever did

if you don’t want to face super teams, don’t start the trend (and i don’t care to be quoted with “hurr durr there were always super teams da da da” lebron sparked super teams back up in the MODERN ERA. that’s what happened and that’s what matters)
:cheers:

[Axe]

The only runs where Pippen was viable was 91' playoffs and most of 92' (aside from the X-man debacle that nearly derailed the repeat).. Otherwise, he was literally bad every other year of his playoff career (88-90' and 93-03')..

His PER and WS/48 is the worst-ever for winning sidekick in 93', while his TS, BPM and VORP was nearly the worst-ever... He was destroyed by Ewing in the 94' Playoffs (21.7 on 40%) and lost the 95' 2nd Round by averaging 19 on 40% - aka Pandemic Pippen... Then he averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 11 ppg in the 99-03' Playoffs..

So Pippen was bad for nearly his entire playoff career, yet MJ won 6 chips with him!! GOAT
Sierra
Tango
Foxtrot
Uniform

[3ba11]

i will always concede and admit to a point that jordan’s finals competition definitely does not compare to the Warriors’ dynasty





The KD Warriors dynasty? Or the Curry Warriors?

There's no way the Curry Warriors were a tougher opponent than a myriad of Jordan opponents...

I'll concede that the KD Warriors are a tougher opponent than Jordan faced in the Finals, but it's apples and oranges because Jordan didn't have a 3rd perennial all-star teammate (super-team) like Lebron did - give Jordan a 3rd star and he would beat any team in history.. People simply forget that Lebron had his own super-team to face the 17' Warriors that many people thought would beat the Warriors (like Nick Wright (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQR259CrwQ&t=01m02s) and others)...

Ultimately, Lebron hand-picked the pre-season favorite from 2011-2016, but fell to underdog or loser every year in the Finals, except the Ray Allen miracle - it's Lebron's fault for underachieving the expectation but regardless, Lebron's super-teams were still extremely unfair, so KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.

[outofstomach]

The KD Warriors dynasty? Or the Curry Warriors?

There's no way the Curry Warriors were a tougher opponent than a myriad of Jordan opponents...

I'll concede that the KD Warriors are a tougher opponent than Jordan faced in the Finals, but it's apples and oranges because Jordan didn't have a 3rd perennial all-star teammate (super-team) like Lebron did - give Jordan a 3rd star and he would beat any team in history.. People simply forget that Lebron had his own super-team to face the 17' Warriors that many people thought would beat the Warriors (like Nick Wright (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQR259CrwQ&t=01m02s) and others)...

Ultimately, Lebron hand-picked the pre-season favorite from 2011-2016, but fell to underdog or loser every year in the Finals, except the Ray Allen miracle - it's Lebron's fault for underachieving the expectation but regardless, Lebron's super-teams were still extremely unfair, so KD had to join Curry/Klay to supercede them.
definitely the KD warriors, not curry’s warriors

[SaintzFury13]

Wow Saintz got destroyed and ran

I didn't even see this post until now. Let's get started on it, shall we?


golden state looked mortal throughout that entire post-season, they were in the midst of being blown out by the Spurs before kawhi got zaza’d, they were also down 3-1 to OKC, they were an absolutely fantastic team, but it was obvious they weren’t as great as it is they were perceived to be

It took you not even two full lines of words to already be factually wrong about something.

In the midst of being blown out by SA? And were also down 3-1 to OKC? Buddy, those things happened in two different post seasons. Golden State didn't even face San Antonio in the playoffs in the year they won 73 games. That was the following season.


you remove draymond from any of those two series i guarantee you that they end up eliminated. every starter is essential in a championship team, and it’s rare that it’s ever the other case period.

Okay? What does that have to do with anything?


Kyrie does not get enough credit for his entire post season performance whatsoever, if it wasn’t for him quite literally outplaying curry for most of that entire series, it wouldn’t even had set up lebron to have performances of that caliber in the first place, there are games where kyrie was obviously better than lebron

Yes, he does. He gets the exact amount of credit he deserves. You can't be a liability at one end and then play well at the other end and that suddenly makes up for it. That's not how this works.

Please, do point out the games that Kyrie was "obviously" better than LeBron.


Game 3

James 32 pts 6 ast 5 TO 56.7%TS, 115 ORTG, +24
Irving 30 pts 8 ast 3 TO 57%TS, 135 ORTG, +24

Game 5

James 41 pts 7 ast 2 TO 61.2%TS, 132 ORTG, +13
Irving 41 pts 6 ast 4 TO 82.4%TS, 146 ORTG, +20

Game 7

James 27 pts 11 ast 5 TO 47.5%TS, 98 ORTG +4
Irving 26 pts 1 ast 2 TO 52.5%TS, 106 ORTG +10

These are your best examples?


you also say that kyrie was a liability on defense and yet he averaged over 2 steals and was 3rd in blocks as well.. what are you going to say to this?

That he got lit up in games 1 and 4 and was getting beat off the dribble time and time again in game 6. These are literal facts that you cannot try to undermine by giving me irrelevant stats.

"but but the STEALS AND BLOCKS" Buddy, steals and blocks don't mean a damn thing when you are failing to even play basic individual defense. Again, Irving's terrible defense literally cost Cleveland game 1. You show me any instance of that happening with Curry. Hell, show me an instance of that happening with Kevin Love, the guy who got the most shit for his defense to begin with.

Oh and by the way, Irving's blocks? 0.7 per game. That's not very good. ALSO, that whole second in steals thing? You wanna know a fun fact? Irving had three steals in one game three times in that series. You wanna know what those games were? Games 1, 2 and 4, the games the Cavaliers LOST and two of which Irving was being lit up in. So uh, nice try there.


because lebron’s stats are apparently infinitely valid removed from context or not,

Lmao yeah no. You do not get to pull the "LeBron's stats are removed from context" card after you literally just did that with Irvings stats. You just stated he was second in steals and third in blocks and tried to prop that up as being some kind of accomplishment on his part, that it was proof he "wasn't" a liability on defense. You do not get to make that claim.


​
kyrie also played less minutes than lebron did this series and averaged similar numbers

Similar.

LeBron's 2016 Finals Stats: 29 PPG, 11 RPG, 8 APG, 2.6 SPG, 2.3 BPG
Kyrie's 2016 Finals Stats: 27 PPG, 4 RPG, 4 APG, 2.1 SPG, 0.7 BPG

In what way are those numbers similar? How unbelievably dense do you have to be to try to make such a claim with a straight face? Do you know how to do basic things in life like brushing your teeth and flossing them? Do you understand how soap works? No, it's not something you eat. I'm just asking because I am legitimately curious as to whether or not you are capable of functioning if you seriously think these numbers are similar.

​
if you also actually sit down and watch the games, kyrie is the one who started clutch rallies and stopped the bleeding as well, kyrie set the tempo. the eye test proves it.


Okay, so name the instances where he did this.


you did all that typing and still didn’t tell me any formidable opponents that lebron faced in the East, you know why? because it literally did not exist.


Jesus christ.


And yeah, of course you can't find any, because LeBron beat them all. Of course people are going to sit here and act like he had no competition. The 2017 Golden State Warriors had no competition in the West, that doesn't mean there weren't any formidable opponents. They were just that much better. The 2015 Hawks won 60 games and had four all star players. That's a formidable team. The Chicago Bulls were still a formidable team. It's just like the people who look at what happened in 2018 in the series between the Cavaliers and Raptors where LeBron's team swept them and act like that's somehow an example of Toronto being a joke of a team. LeBron and Love were just dominant.

Clear as day, I named three teams that were formidable, and that was just 2015 alone and the one in 2018 was just to prove a point even though there were more to name. Stop being a retard.


and to say Jordan’s opponents underperformed every single post-season run sounds very agenda-driven and nonsensical, you’re telling me every single time jordan won it was due to his opponents not performing up to standard? or maybe it was because of amazing team defense and Jordan’s relentless scoring throughout the entire run? the hawks were obviously fraudulent, the bulls :lol :lol i can’t believe you even said that

I can't believe I said that either because I never once said this. Go back and tell me where I ever stated this.


and no one ever took the Raptors seriously as a threat, especially with Derozan spearheading that team, derozan was always known as an empty calorie scorer who could never get the job done when it was necessary

And now you're just resorting to spouting obvious bullshit. Even before the playoffs the Raptors were being hyped up as the real deal, that this was going to be the year they could finally get over the hump and make it past Cleveland and experience some form of legitimate playoff success. They were favored over Cleveland before the series began. Cleveland winning was not out of the realm of possibility, but no one expected them to be as dominant as they were.

So 3ball, please, where tell me where I got "destroyed"? Literally all he did was state incorrect information, literally lie at one point, use poor stats to ignore things that happened, and literally miss something I stated clear as day. I suggest you shut your ass up and stay out of things you have no business being part of. You get destroyed on a regular basis and are the bitch of this site.

[SaintzFury13]

one of the classic arguments against Jordan is that he would not score in this era (which is mind-boggling with all of the spacing and amount of touch fouls called nowadays) it’s also said he wouldn’t be able to adapt to shooting a lot of 3 pointers, you may not do it, but it is definitely done.

Whoever is making that argument is an idiot and should not be taken seriously. I have no doubt in my mind that Jordan would have been able to adapt and develop a legitimate three point shot of his own.


the Spurs were an elite team in the sense that they were greater than the sum of their parts… they were not stacked by any stretch of the imagination, all they did was play a better brand of basketball along with brilliant coaching to bring home the title, lebron tried to take the easy way out by colluding and stacking the deck and he still lost, they were not stacked and insurmountable. wade and bosh struggled because of brilliant defense, it’s almost like when you stack the deck and then run into a team that knows how to scheme against it, it doesn’t work out like it’s supposed to?

The Spurs still had their famous big three playing at a high level of basketball along with a guy who broke the most three pointers made in a finals series record who was also a great defensive player along with an up and coming Kawhi Leonard who wasn't a superstar player by any means yet but still a very good starting SF. And they played one of the best brands of basketball we had ever seen. Stacked? No, and I don't deny that. But definitely an elite team.

And again, you can throw out the "stack the deck" argument all you like. Jordan tried doing the exact same thing when he demanded trades be made and even wanted to be traded himself at one point. Once he got Pippen and Grant, and then later Rodman, he didn't have to "stack the deck". The deck was already stacked and the Bulls were already the juggernaut.


using preseason odds as some sort of light house for your argument is not going to work here.

Okay? When did I ever use preseason odds? In fact I'm one of the people who constantly criticizes the preseason odds argument because it's an idiotic argument to make. Again, putting words in my mouth is not going to help you here.


underdog or not the point is that jordan always got the job done and more than always exceeded expectations, not only did he handle a scoring load, he also played amazing defense (enough that he won DPOY…) lebron needed a rotating cast of stars and all stars in order to succeed while jordan needed one or two constants in addition to good role players. it’s somewhat consensus that jordan faced tougher competition getting to the finals, and that lebron faced tougher competition in the finals, and i guarantee you if he played in the west those 8 straight finals do not happen whatsoever.

LeBron never "needed" a "rotating cast of stars". That's simply what happened. His LA title win proved all he ever truly needed was a great all star teammate (just like Jordan had with Pippen) and a team filled with people who could do all the dirty work for him to win. He didn't have to be the guy who did everything for once in LA like he did in Miami and Cleveland. Again, LeBron didn't "need" to leave Miami in the first place.

This is arguably the biggest misconception of LeBron's entire career and it's how you can easily tell who has a functioning brain and who doesn't. The very idea that a guy like LeBron "needed" multiple superstar caliber players on his team is just laughable. He consistently came close to doing it in his first stint with Cleveland without even having one, but now you expect me to believe that even with one, he wouldn't have been able to pull it off? Please.

Not to mention, you are still undervaluing what Jordan had to help him in the first place. Jordan never would have won without Scottie Pippen. Hell, he never would have even won without Horace Grant. We saw what not having him did to the Bulls in 95. You want to sit here and act like getting Dennis Rodman was just a "good roleplayer"? He was first team all defense, led the league in rebounding in his first season with the bulls and got FMVP votes in 96 and was the primary defender against Karl Malone in 97 and 98. But he was just a "good roleplayer".

Stupid.


just another key player? it was an aging roster and they were all becoming jaded with one another, you’re definitely oversimplifying that completely

No, I'm not. If you are going to sit here and pretend that Dennis Rodman was nothing more than just a good roleplayer, then I too can downplay and claim Miami just needed another key player. And in reality, that is in fact all they really needed. They were still going to be in the NBA finals and unlike Cleveland, I seriously doubt they were going to run into the problem of injuries to two of the three top players on the team if they faced Golden State in 2015. And they would have matched up a lot better than Cleveland did. I have no doubt in my mind that Miami would have won that year if LeBron had chosen to stay. He simply decided it would be more beneficial to his career if he went to Cleveland (which I once again will acknowledge was not a "for Cleveland" thing. He saw a massive opportunity and he went for it).

[Hey Yo]

yeah you’re right you are

you aren’t supposed to request superstars from every single team and then jump ship when it starts getting tough, if you respect that, that’s cool but i personally don’t and don’t see why i would

ultimately jordan stayed on one team, adapted his playing style, was a great leader and was a very dominant player throughout his entire run, that’s why i prefer him, if you prefer lebron that’s cool

i gave you my reasoning, if you think it’s “dumb” then i’d put forth you’re arguing in bad faith regardless
You're obviously talking out of your ass about going team to team asking for superstars.

Jordan went for the money. That's what degenerate gamblers do. That's why he signed an 8yr extension, instead of signing a shorter one that would end when he would be eligible for free agency in the summer of 1991.

You saw by him quitting in his prime that he knew he ****ed up and signed too long of deal cause others were getting paid much more for contributing less.

[Hey Yo]

i didn’t discredit pippen at all, i acknowledge that he was a great player and pretty important to the team, that isn’t my issue. my issue is colluding and getting immense credit for it

that 2018 celtics team was good, but again, no one realistically thought they would end up beating lebron a literal playoff veteran, versus a rookie led squad? that would’ve been absolutely embarrassing, it isn’t formidable competition

it’s amazing how much credit lebron gets for beating these weak ass teams while harden is constantly shit on for struggling against dynasties and teams that were actually fantastic

Cavs were down 3-2 in 2018 to the Celtics. Love got concussed early in game 6 and didnt return, held scoreless. Then Boston is favored at home for game 7 and no Kevin Love. It's obvious you didnt watch games or know the context.

[Gudo]

Maybe 9-10 would still be reasonable

[hateraid]

Same with Jordan. Top 3 is reasonable. Top 5 shows some sign of bias. Outside top 5 is clear agenda.

[SaintzFury13]

Same with Jordan. Top 3 is reasonable. Top 5 shows some sign of bias. Outside top 5 is clear agenda.

I don't see an issue with considering LeBron a "top 5" player. But yes, anything outside of top 5 is clear agenda at that point.

[outofstomach]

Cavs were down 3-2 in 2018 to the Celtics. Love got concussed early in game 6 and didnt return, held scoreless. Then Boston is favored at home for game 7 and no Kevin Love. It's obvious you didnt watch games or know the context.


I didn't even see this post until now. Let's get started on it, shall we?



It took you not even two full lines of words to already be factually wrong about something.

In the midst of being blown out by SA? And were also down 3-1 to OKC? Buddy, those things happened in two different post seasons. Golden State didn't even face San Antonio in the playoffs in the year they won 73 games. That was the following season.



Okay? What does that have to do with anything?



Yes, he does. He gets the exact amount of credit he deserves. You can't be a liability at one end and then play well at the other end and that suddenly makes up for it. That's not how this works.

Please, do point out the games that Kyrie was "obviously" better than LeBron.



These are your best examples?



That he got lit up in games 1 and 4 and was getting beat off the dribble time and time again in game 6. These are literal facts that you cannot try to undermine by giving me irrelevant stats.

"but but the STEALS AND BLOCKS" Buddy, steals and blocks don't mean a damn thing when you are failing to even play basic individual defense. Again, Irving's terrible defense literally cost Cleveland game 1. You show me any instance of that happening with Curry. Hell, show me an instance of that happening with Kevin Love, the guy who got the most shit for his defense to begin with.

Oh and by the way, Irving's blocks? 0.7 per game. That's not very good. ALSO, that whole second in steals thing? You wanna know a fun fact? Irving had three steals in one game three times in that series. You wanna know what those games were? Games 1, 2 and 4, the games the Cavaliers LOST and two of which Irving was being lit up in. So uh, nice try there.



Lmao yeah no. You do not get to pull the "LeBron's stats are removed from context" card after you literally just did that with Irvings stats. You just stated he was second in steals and third in blocks and tried to prop that up as being some kind of accomplishment on his part, that it was proof he "wasn't" a liability on defense. You do not get to make that claim.


​

Similar.

LeBron's 2016 Finals Stats: 29 PPG, 11 RPG, 8 APG, 2.6 SPG, 2.3 BPG
Kyrie's 2016 Finals Stats: 27 PPG, 4 RPG, 4 APG, 2.1 SPG, 0.7 BPG

In what way are those numbers similar? How unbelievably dense do you have to be to try to make such a claim with a straight face? Do you know how to do basic things in life like brushing your teeth and flossing them? Do you understand how soap works? No, it's not something you eat. I'm just asking because I am legitimately curious as to whether or not you are capable of functioning if you seriously think these numbers are similar.

​

Okay, so name the instances where he did this.



Jesus christ.



Clear as day, I named three teams that were formidable, and that was just 2015 alone and the one in 2018 was just to prove a point even though there were more to name. Stop being a retard.



I can't believe I said that either because I never once said this. Go back and tell me where I ever stated this.



And now you're just resorting to spouting obvious bullshit. Even before the playoffs the Raptors were being hyped up as the real deal, that this was going to be the year they could finally get over the hump and make it past Cleveland and experience some form of legitimate playoff success. They were favored over Cleveland before the series began. Cleveland winning was not out of the realm of possibility, but no one expected them to be as dominant as they were.

So 3ball, please, where tell me where I got "destroyed"? Literally all he did was state incorrect information, literally lie at one point, use poor stats to ignore things that happened, and literally miss something I stated clear as day. I suggest you shut your ass up and stay out of things you have no business being part of. You get destroyed on a regular basis and are the bitch of this site.

memory failed me for the Spurs and Warriors playing in 2016, could’ve sworn that they did, you got me there :applause:

regardless, they were down 3-1 to OKC, they looked mortal. they did not look like the team that KD was when they ended up sweeping (if not damn near) sweeping the entire post-season into the Finals

poor choice of words i used there, i didn’t mean averaged, but more that kyrie matched lebron’s scoring totals and performed just as brilliantly as he did game to game (and averaging 2 PPG less is not a big step down whatsoever, all the other stats, sure) i did not mean he averaged the same as lebron across that series, again poor choice of words

what do you mean what does that have to do with anything? if you remove an essential player from a championship team, of course they’re going to lose, ok and as in the win is not impressive looking back at retrospect when lebron had kyrie average 27 PPG, in addition to getting a player suspended who quite literally was the conductor alongside Curry of an historic offense :lol are you serious?

best examples? these are 3 games out of a 7 game series that the second option either played on a similar level or arguably outplayed the GOAT, you can pretend to act like it’s not significant but it very much is

post me the games where kyrie was a liability on defense, cause i have to see it. this isn’t even to mention and say curry is a known liability on defense as well, so if anything it could be argued that it balances out if not tips the scales in the Cavs’ favor with the way Curry performed under standards in that series regardless, not to mention kyrie was scoring like this on their best defender

so the game he got three steals they lost…? is this supposed to mean when he gets steals he costs them the games or like what? im not sure why you brought that up exactly. unless you have concrete proof that kyrie was being lit up consistently throughout the series im not taking it at face value.

what are you talking about name the instances where he did this? are you serious? did you watch any of the games? i may have been wrong about when the warriors played the Spurs but you’re not going to sit there and have me attempt to do the leg work for you in an attempt to prove such an obvious point, how about the most obvious one where kyrie scored 10 straight points in game 5?

you named no teams that were actually competition :lol no one remembers those teams, and they weren’t going to do anything great if lebron was removed from the ****ing conference :lol it’s honestly hilarious that you’re pretending to be this baffled that im saying this

“ People like you pretend to act like Jordan's wins were due to his dominance and not to due to his opponents underperforming.” you then covered up “ok ok but it usually was due to his dominance” you tried to discredit jordan massively, and then realized you sounded dumb. don’t try to act like im putting words in your mouth, and the difference between Jordan’s and lebron’s dominance is that HE DIDNT GET BAILED OUT IN CRUCIAL MOMENTS OF THE FINALS SERIES. he didnt need a ray Allen or a kyrie Irving to hit the big shots and rally the team for him, HE WAS THE ONE WHO DID IT

you’re using media and some form of Vegas odds to justify your opinions as to how the Raptors were considered a totally for real championship team :lol im not gonna bother with that further man. no one took that team, or any of those teams you named previously serious

[outofstomach]

Whoever is making that argument is an idiot and should not be taken seriously. I have no doubt in my mind that Jordan would have been able to adapt and develop a legitimate three point shot of his own.



The Spurs still had their famous big three playing at a high level of basketball along with a guy who broke the most three pointers made in a finals series record who was also a great defensive player along with an up and coming Kawhi Leonard who wasn't a superstar player by any means yet but still a very good starting SF. And they played one of the best brands of basketball we had ever seen. Stacked? No, and I don't deny that. But definitely an elite team.

And again, you can throw out the "stack the deck" argument all you like. Jordan tried doing the exact same thing when he demanded trades be made and even wanted to be traded himself at one point. Once he got Pippen and Grant, and then later Rodman, he didn't have to "stack the deck". The deck was already stacked and the Bulls were already the juggernaut.



Okay? When did I ever use preseason odds? In fact I'm one of the people who constantly criticizes the preseason odds argument because it's an idiotic argument to make. Again, putting words in my mouth is not going to help you here.



LeBron never "needed" a "rotating cast of stars". That's simply what happened. His LA title win proved all he ever truly needed was a great all star teammate (just like Jordan had with Pippen) and a team filled with people who could do all the dirty work for him to win. He didn't have to be the guy who did everything for once in LA like he did in Miami and Cleveland. Again, LeBron didn't "need" to leave Miami in the first place.

This is arguably the biggest misconception of LeBron's entire career and it's how you can easily tell who has a functioning brain and who doesn't. The very idea that a guy like LeBron "needed" multiple superstar caliber players on his team is just laughable. He consistently came close to doing it in his first stint with Cleveland without even having one, but now you expect me to believe that even with one, he wouldn't have been able to pull it off? Please.

Not to mention, you are still undervaluing what Jordan had to help him in the first place. Jordan never would have won without Scottie Pippen. Hell, he never would have even won without Horace Grant. We saw what not having him did to the Bulls in 95. You want to sit here and act like getting Dennis Rodman was just a "good roleplayer"? He was first team all defense, led the league in rebounding in his first season with the bulls and got FMVP votes in 96 and was the primary defender against Karl Malone in 97 and 98. But he was just a "good roleplayer".

Stupid.



No, I'm not. If you are going to sit here and pretend that Dennis Rodman was nothing more than just a good roleplayer, then I too can downplay and claim Miami just needed another key player. And in reality, that is in fact all they really needed. They were still going to be in the NBA finals and unlike Cleveland, I seriously doubt they were going to run into the problem of injuries to two of the three top players on the team if they faced Golden State in 2015. And they would have matched up a lot better than Cleveland did. I have no doubt in my mind that Miami would have won that year if LeBron had chosen to stay. He simply decided it would be more beneficial to his career if he went to Cleveland (which I once again will acknowledge was not a "for Cleveland" thing. He saw a massive opportunity and he went for it).

key word is tried there buddy, he didn’t. he got his team and stuck with it, developed it and won championships. he didn’t jump ship, he didn’t leave, he didn’t cry for other superstars or hold the front office hostage. it is that simple.

yea, they were not stacked, they were a fantastically ran team, aka not insurmountable like the competition he would later get absolutely demolished by in understandable fashion (KD-era warriors) i don’t care that he lost to an elite team, all time greats are supposed to be able to overcome and beat very good teams, he wasn’t able to with a handpicked team that some greats aren’t even afforded the luxury of doing, if not are appalled by even thinking OF doing it

so then who’s words are you using to determine these supposed “favorites”? because if it’s media or the casual fan it’s honestly no better whatsoever.

he did “NEED” a rotating cast of stars, what are you talking about it just happened? that’s not even an argument, that’s a thought terminating clichè and gets no one anywhere, the point is he ran through tons of phenomenal players in order to win rings as opposed to some other all time greats, that’s not something you just cheapen and wave off?

his LA title literally proved nothing, he beat nobody formidable leading up to the finals, and some of those players literally were playing out of their minds for the first time ever in their careers, in addition to players being not cleared for COVID and some even sitting out, the Heat were one of the weakest finals opponents quite literally of all time, they did not belong there whatsoever… it’s embarrassing it even took 6 games for them to dispose of Butler (and weren’t they missing literally two or three key starters? you’re hanging your hat on that? :lol ) the most impressive win they honestly got was through the Nuggets.. which was a pretty obvious series for them to win from the jump, once again

did he pull a ring off without a rotating cast of stars? you can engage in wistful conjecture all you want and act like he would’ve accomplished a ring with no help, he did not, and that’s what happened

i literally acknowledged Rodman and pippen in “one or two constants” that’s literally what that post means.. i didn’t undervalue them whatsoever, YOU on the other hand undervalue kyrie so much to the point where you think Klay is superior to him, which exposes your agenda and after this reply im done having this dialogue with you because that’s absolutely preposterous :lol

i didn’t devalue rodman, and simplifying Miami to just needing another key player to make the finals, once again is a very odd way of looking at things and actually sort of implies that the East was so feeble and weak, that one good player was needed to tip the scales and/or the Heat were THAT good, which puts weight on the leg of lebron losing with a super team against the Spurs.

you have your reasoning and i have mine, i acknowledge that i slipped, misquoted states, forgot when the Spurs and Warriors faced, but overall agree to disagree. i don’t like lebron’s playing style and how everyone ate in his supposed “era” I prefer Jordan’s play style and his dominance, i tip my hat to you for actually engaging in basketball discussion rather than just quoting pictures and stats (trolling)

[outofstomach]

You're obviously talking out of your ass about going team to team asking for superstars.

Jordan went for the money. That's what degenerate gamblers do. That's why he signed an 8yr extension, instead of signing a shorter one that would end when he would be eligible for free agency in the summer of 1991.

You saw by him quitting in his prime that he knew he ****ed up and signed too long of deal cause others were getting paid much more for contributing less.
a simple Google will show plenty of articles recounting of how Lebron called players asking them to play with him, i don’t even know why you’re bothering to troll like this

[outofstomach]

Cavs were down 3-2 in 2018 to the Celtics. Love got concussed early in game 6 and didnt return, held scoreless. Then Boston is favored at home for game 7 and no Kevin Love. It's obvious you didnt watch games or know the context.
i am going to maintain that no one took the Celtics serious. why does context count in that series, but with Curry being injured and not 100% along with Draymond’s suspension doesn’t count? because he won? both times? hypocrisy within juxtaposition?

[Hey Yo]

Steals are more about bad passes rather than picking a players pocket. Steals don't equate to great defense being played.

Magic lead the league in steals before and his defense was for shit. Iverson also lead for one season.

[8Ball]

outofstomach got American X curb stomped by SaintFury13 in this thread.

I will remember this for a long time.

[8Ball]

Game 3

James 32 pts 6 ast 5 TO 56.7%TS, 115 ORTG, +24
Irving 30 pts 8 ast 3 TO 57%TS, 135 ORTG, +24

Game 5

James 41 pts 7 ast 2 TO 61.2%TS, 132 ORTG, +13
Irving 41 pts 6 ast 4 TO 82.4%TS, 146 ORTG, +20

Game 7

James 27 pts 11 ast 5 TO 47.5%TS, 98 ORTG +4
Irving 26 pts 1 ast 2 TO 52.5%TS, 106 ORTG +10



This retard needs to eliminate rebounds to make Kyrie's case better :roll:


Game 5:

41/16/7 vs 41/3/6

Game 7

27/11/11 vs 26/6/1


They overwhelmingly gave finals MVP to LeBron yet this retard says Kyrie outperformed Bran in 2016. :roll::roll:


What's next, you will go back 5 years from now to say AD outperformed Bron in 2020 finals right?

[Airupthere]

a simple Google will show plenty of articles recounting of how Lebron called players asking them to play with him, i don’t even know why you’re bothering to troll like this

Lebron may very well be the only in the top 10 talks that has blatantly called up and persuaded tons of other stars to superteam with him. With that, lower end of top 10 is being generous for a lowest reasonable rank.

[outofstomach]

This retard needs to eliminate rebounds to make Kyrie's case better :roll:


Game 5:

41/16/7 vs 41/3/6

Game 7

27/11/11 vs 26/6/1


They overwhelmingly gave finals MVP to LeBron yet this retard says Kyrie outperformed Bran in 2016. :roll::roll:


What's next, you will go back 5 years from now to say AD outperformed Bron in 2020 finals right?

if rebounds is what you’re using to prove that lebron outperformed kyrie in the 2016 finals i think you’ve already conceded the argument

you’re one of the worst trolls on here so feel blessed you got this response out of me

[outofstomach]

where the hell did i say kyrie outperformed lebron? i said he performed JUST AS good scoring wise, and outperformed him in certain games (which the stats indicate…) and even in certain portions of those games lead them into clutch performances, he doesn’t get enough credit for that series whatsoever.

[Hey Yo]

i am going to maintain that no one took the Celtics serious. why does context count in that series, but with Curry being injured and not 100% along with Draymond’s suspension doesn’t count? because he won? both times? hypocrisy within juxtaposition?

Yeah, it was a no brainer that a guy playing in his 8th consecutive ECF would have no chance of petering out or higher chance of injury. Certainly no reason to take Celts serious...:facepalm

Did Curry miss any games? Nobody was talking injuries with him until late in the series when GS fans started to sweat. After game 4 all the talk was whether GS would need to comeback to Cleveland for a game 6. Curry took 25FGA in game 4 and played almost 40mins. He avg. the highest mins. on his team for the series....but yeah, he was hurt though :rolleyes:

Draymond put up 32-15-9 in game 7 at home. What's the excuse for losing when your 4th option gives you that production?

[Airupthere]

if rebounds is what you’re using to prove that lebron outperformed kyrie in the 2016 finals i think you’ve already conceded the argument

you’re one of the worst trolls on here so feel blessed you got this response out of me

Every stat counts, lol. Lebron bronballed and is at least 6" taller than kyrie and built much heavier than kyrie. When it comes to taking big dick shots though, we know who takes it and delivers.

[outofstomach]

Steals are more about bad passes rather than picking a players pocket. Steals don't equate to great defense being played.

Magic lead the league in steals before and his defense was for shit. Iverson also lead for one season.
it doesn’t equate to being good defense, but it’s one thing to pretend that kyrie was not trying on defense whatsoever and was getting lit up the entire series when those particular performances exist, and im also confused on how kyrie scoring and having “bad” defense doesn’t balance out with curry’s abysmal finals performance and piss poor defense (if not tip the scales) but whatever i guess :lol

[8Ball]

if rebounds is what you’re using to prove that lebron outperformed kyrie in the 2016 finals i think you’ve already conceded the argument

you’re one of the worst trolls on here so feel blessed you got this response out of me

Explain to me why you think this formula explains why 1 player is better than another?



ScPoss = (FG_Part + AST_Part + FT_Part) * (1 - (Team_ORB / Team_Scoring_Poss) * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%) + ORB_Part
where:

FG_Part = FGM * (1 - 0.5 * ((PTS - FTM) / (2 * FGA)) * qAST)
qAST = ((MP / (Team_MP / 5)) * (1.14 * ((Team_AST - AST) / Team_FGM))) + ((((Team_AST / Team_MP) * MP * 5 - AST) / ((Team_FGM / Team_MP) * MP * 5 - FGM)) * (1 - (MP / (Team_MP / 5))))
AST_Part = 0.5 * (((Team_PTS - Team_FTM) - (PTS - FTM)) / (2 * (Team_FGA - FGA))) * AST
FT_Part = (1-(1-(FTM/FTA))^2)*0.4*FTA
Team_Scoring_Poss = Team_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Team_FTM / Team_FTA))^2) * Team_FTA * 0.4
Team_ORB_Weight = ((1 - Team_ORB%) * Team_Play%) / ((1 - Team_ORB%) * Team_Play% + Team_ORB% * (1 - Team_Play%))
Team_ORB% = Team_ORB / (Team_ORB + (Opponent_TRB - Opponent_ORB))
Team_Play% = Team_Scoring_Poss / (Team_FGA + Team_FTA * 0.4 + Team_TOV)
ORB_Part = ORB * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%
Missed FG and Missed FT Possessions are calculated as follows:

FGxPoss = (FGA - FGM) * (1 - 1.07 * Team_ORB%)
FTxPoss = ((1 - (FTM / FTA))^2) * 0.4 * FTA
Total Possessions are then computed like so:

TotPoss = ScPoss + FGxPoss + FTxPoss + TOV
Now, Individual Points Produced must also be calculated:

PProd = (PProd_FG_Part + PProd_AST_Part + FTM) * (1 - (Team_ORB / Team_Scoring_Poss) * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%) + PProd_ORB_Part
where:

PProd_FG_Part = 2 * (FGM + 0.5 * 3PM) * (1 - 0.5 * ((PTS - FTM) / (2 * FGA)) * qAST)
PProd_AST_Part = 2 * ((Team_FGM - FGM + 0.5 * (Team_3PM - 3PM)) / (Team_FGM - FGM)) * 0.5 * (((Team_PTS - Team_FTM) - (PTS - FTM)) / (2 * (Team_FGA - FGA))) * AST
PProd_ORB_Part = ORB * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play% * (Team_PTS / (Team_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Team_FTM / Team_FTA))^2) * 0.4 * Team_FTA))
After all of that, we can finally calculate the player's individual Offensive Rating:

ORtg = 100 * (PProd / TotPoss)



Do you think any team uses this to evaluate a player's performance vs actually watching the games and the tape?

[8Ball]

outofstomach


You are one of the lowest IQ trolls on this site. I shit on you every time you decide to post. Time to keep lurking.


You think using some stats makes you smart, but you have no idea what kind of stats you are using.


Without googling, tell me why that ORtg stat you use tells us Kyrie is better than Bron.

[outofstomach]

Yeah, it was a no brainer that a guy playing in his 8th consecutive ECF would have no chance of petering out or higher chance of injury.

Did Curry miss any games? Nobody was talking injuries with him until late in the series when GS fans started to sweat. After game 4 all the talk was whether GS would need to comeback to Cleveland for a game 6. Curry took 25FGA in game 4 and played almost 40mins. He avg. the highest mins. on his team for the series....but yeah, he was hurt though :rolleyes:

Draymond put up 32-15-9 in game 7 at home. What's the excuse for losing when your 4th option gives you that production?
lebron doesn’t have an extensive injury history, again playing in what if land does not give your hero anymore credence, let’s stick with what happened and what we watched

harden was injured this year and he played heavy minutes too… what is your point?

those are some pretty gaudy stats, they probably could’ve used him the game he got suspended :applause:

[outofstomach]

Explain to me why you think this formula explains why 1 player is better than another?



ScPoss = (FG_Part + AST_Part + FT_Part) * (1 - (Team_ORB / Team_Scoring_Poss) * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%) + ORB_Part
where:

FG_Part = FGM * (1 - 0.5 * ((PTS - FTM) / (2 * FGA)) * qAST)
qAST = ((MP / (Team_MP / 5)) * (1.14 * ((Team_AST - AST) / Team_FGM))) + ((((Team_AST / Team_MP) * MP * 5 - AST) / ((Team_FGM / Team_MP) * MP * 5 - FGM)) * (1 - (MP / (Team_MP / 5))))
AST_Part = 0.5 * (((Team_PTS - Team_FTM) - (PTS - FTM)) / (2 * (Team_FGA - FGA))) * AST
FT_Part = (1-(1-(FTM/FTA))^2)*0.4*FTA
Team_Scoring_Poss = Team_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Team_FTM / Team_FTA))^2) * Team_FTA * 0.4
Team_ORB_Weight = ((1 - Team_ORB%) * Team_Play%) / ((1 - Team_ORB%) * Team_Play% + Team_ORB% * (1 - Team_Play%))
Team_ORB% = Team_ORB / (Team_ORB + (Opponent_TRB - Opponent_ORB))
Team_Play% = Team_Scoring_Poss / (Team_FGA + Team_FTA * 0.4 + Team_TOV)
ORB_Part = ORB * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%
Missed FG and Missed FT Possessions are calculated as follows:

FGxPoss = (FGA - FGM) * (1 - 1.07 * Team_ORB%)
FTxPoss = ((1 - (FTM / FTA))^2) * 0.4 * FTA
Total Possessions are then computed like so:

TotPoss = ScPoss + FGxPoss + FTxPoss + TOV
Now, Individual Points Produced must also be calculated:

PProd = (PProd_FG_Part + PProd_AST_Part + FTM) * (1 - (Team_ORB / Team_Scoring_Poss) * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%) + PProd_ORB_Part
where:

PProd_FG_Part = 2 * (FGM + 0.5 * 3PM) * (1 - 0.5 * ((PTS - FTM) / (2 * FGA)) * qAST)
PProd_AST_Part = 2 * ((Team_FGM - FGM + 0.5 * (Team_3PM - 3PM)) / (Team_FGM - FGM)) * 0.5 * (((Team_PTS - Team_FTM) - (PTS - FTM)) / (2 * (Team_FGA - FGA))) * AST
PProd_ORB_Part = ORB * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play% * (Team_PTS / (Team_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Team_FTM / Team_FTA))^2) * 0.4 * Team_FTA))
After all of that, we can finally calculate the player's individual Offensive Rating:

ORtg = 100 * (PProd / TotPoss)



Do you think any team uses this to evaluate a player's performance vs actually watching the games and the tape?

nice embed man, you sure got me there

[Hey Yo]

it doesn’t equate to being good defense, but it’s one thing to pretend that kyrie was not trying on defense whatsoever and was getting lit up the entire series when those particular performances exist, and im also confused on how kyrie scoring and having “bad” defense doesn’t balance out with curry’s abysmal finals performance and piss poor defense (if not tip the scales) but whatever i guess :lol

So Kyrie played well due to Curry's alleged injury and piss poor defense against Kyrie?