Is Magic Johnson even a top 20 player of all time?

[StrongLurk]

Magic said he would've gone back to college if he wasn't able to play with the Lakers...so he was colluding from the get go and formed the foundation of the league's biggest superteam of the 80's.

Magic was also NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer? What separates him from guys like Steve Nash, Chris Paul and other similar ball-dominating point guards besides the fact that he had a superteam to help manufacture his resume?

[bullettooth]

Foh.

[warriorfan]

Magic said he would've gone back to college if he wasn't able to play with the Lakers...so he was colluding from the get go and formed the foundation of the league's biggest superteam of the 80's.

Magic was also NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer? What separates him from guys like Steve Nash, Chris Paul and other similar ball-dominating point guards besides the fact that he had a superteam to help manufacture his resume?

Size. Eye test.

[Xiao Yao You]

:facepalm

[Full Court]

The ignorance of some people on here just amazes me. I'm not a Magic fan at all, nor am I a Lakers fan - quite the opposite - so I'm not biased here. But back when Magic was playing nobody questioned that he was one of the greats. It was obvious. Now thirty years later we have clowns trying to push some kind of narrative that people like Magic, Jordan, Bird, etc. weren't all that great. These people either never saw them play, don't understand the game of basketball, think you can tell everything from a stat sheet, or are just plain dumb. Maybe a combination of all those.

[StrongLurk]

Size. Eye test.

So, colluding and winning rings on superteams is fine for Magic in your eyes but not for Lebron? Is that what you are trying to pull?

[tontoz]

Even if you never saw magic play just look at his career averages:

19.5 pts with a 61% TS
11 assists
7 rebounds.

[Smoke117]

Never the top producer? He led the 88 team in scoring that season and would lead the team in scoring with 26ppg vs the Celtics in the finals. He doesn't need to lead in scoring anyway to be top producer when you take into account his assists. Blake Griffin would lead the Clippers in scoring, but Chris Paul was always the clear cut best player with the biggest impact.

[StrongLurk]

Even if you never saw magic play just look at his career averages:

19.5 pts with a 61% TS
11 assists
7 rebounds.

Magic was NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer? What separates him from guys like Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook and other similar ball-dominating point guards besides the fact that he had a superteam to help manufacture his resume?

[warriorfan]

So, colluding and winning rings on superteams is fine for Magic in your eyes but not for Lebron? Is that what you are trying to pull?

Eye test, you f.aggot. If you have watched Magic Johnson and try to make an argument about how Steve Nash and CP3 are better you need to throw your TV out the window. Maybe start following soccer or some shit.

[StrongLurk]

Never the top producer? He led the 88 team in scoring that season and would lead the team in scoring with 26ppg vs the Celtics in the finals. He doesn't need to lead in scoring anyway to be top producer when you take into account his assists.

You are wrong.

PPG in the 1988 playoffs.

Worthy: 21.1ppg
Magic: 19.9ppg
Byron Scott: 19.6ppg

So Magic was barely number two and had an equal scoring partner with Byron Scott.

[StrongLurk]

Eye test, you f.aggot. If you have watched Magic Johnson and try to make an argument about how Steve Nash and CP3 are better you need to throw your TV out the window. Maybe start following soccer or some shit.

You've never said eye test when it comes to Lebron, so I guess you just are a Lebron hater.

Magic is only considered better because of his rings. Otherwise he would be a perennial loser without his superteams just like Nash and CP3. He colluded to the Lakers, created the foundations of the biggest superteam of the 80's, therefore his rings are invalid.

[tontoz]

Magic was NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer? What separates him from guys like Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook and other similar ball-dominating point guards besides the fact that he had a superteam to help manufacture his resume?

Ad a rookie he played center in game 7 of the finals, taking Kareem's place who was out hurt, and dropped 42. He could score big when he wanted to.

Just because he wasn't the leading scorer does mean he wasn't the best offensive player on every team he played on.

[Thenameless]

Magic said he would've gone back to college if he wasn't able to play with the Lakers...so he was colluding from the get go and formed the foundation of the league's biggest superteam of the 80's.

Magic was also NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer? What separates him from guys like Steve Nash, Chris Paul and other similar ball-dominating point guards besides the fact that he had a superteam to help manufacture his resume?

That's what great teammates, and especially point guards, can do. Being a top-producing point guard nets you results like Russell Westbrook; you get lots of empty stats. In order to win, a great point guard MUST FIRST facilitate scoring for the rest of his teammates. Get the big guy going, catch the small forward when he slashes to the hoop, kick out to the shooting guard when he's open. And when the opposing team least expects it, then you score on your own.

What separates him from guys like Steve Nash? The fast break. Both were good at running half court offences. Magic is the greatest ever point guard once it's Showtime. On the run, Magic almost always found the right guy to finish, and if the runners were covered, he'd just score it himself. Nash doesn't have that same ability.

[warriorfan]

You've never said eye test when it comes to Lebron, so I guess you just are a Lebron hater.

Magic is only considered better because of his rings. Otherwise he would be a perennial loser without his superteams just like Nash and CP3. He colluded to the Lakers, created the foundations of the biggest superteam of the 80's, therefore his rings are invalid.

Kill yourself my man.

[Xiao Yao You]

You are wrong.

PPG in the 1988 playoffs.

Worthy: 21.1ppg
Magic: 19.9ppg
Byron Scott: 19.6ppg

So Magic was barely number two and had an equal scoring partner with Byron Scott.

rebounds, assists. Magic could score anytime he wanted and did when they needed him to. He got the guys around him easy buckets.

[StrongLurk]

rebounds, assists. Magic could score anytime he wanted and did when they needed him to. He got the guys around him easy buckets.

Are you trying to tell me basketball is more than just scoring and ppg? Is that what you are trying to say??

[tontoz]

Strictly looking at the numbers what pgs can stand up to Magic? When you look at points, assists and rebounds and efficiency it is pretty clear who comes out on top.

[Xiao Yao You]

You've never said eye test when it comes to Lebron, so I guess you just are a Lebron hater.

Magic is only considered better because of his rings. Otherwise he would be a perennial loser without his superteams just like Nash and CP3. He colluded to the Lakers, created the foundations of the biggest superteam of the 80's, therefore his rings are invalid.

He wouldn't have been a loser because he made teams better

[Xiao Yao You]

Are you trying to tell me basketball is more than just scoring and ppg? Is that what you are trying to say??

outside of ISH it is

[Bronbron23]

Magic said he would've gone back to college if he wasn't able to play with the Lakers...so he was colluding from the get go and formed the foundation of the league's biggest superteam of the 80's.

Magic was also NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer? What separates him from guys like Steve Nash, Chris Paul and other similar ball-dominating point guards besides the fact that he had a superteam to help manufacture his resume?

If magic isn't top 20 wtf is steph? Magic had a better finals as a rookie than steph ever had.

[tontoz]

I am sure there is some point to this thread but I just don't see it yet.:(

[Xiao Yao You]

I am sure there is some point to this thread but I just don't see it yet.:(

make Lebron look better I imagine like most threads

[Magic Is Magic]

Magic Johnson is well above the top 20 range, he is well above the top 15 and top 10 range. He is ranked 7th via my Magic formula for a number of reasons.

a) Magic is 5th all time for MVP win shares, only James, Jordan, Kareem, and Bird are higher
b) Magic has 9 all NBA 1st teams, 4th most all time
c) Magic has the most playoff assists in NBA history, 1st all time
d) Magic has three Finals MVPs, only James and Jordan have more
e) Magic has five rings
f) Magic has 5th most PO win shares, only James, Jordan, Duncan, and Kareem are higher
g) Magic has over 2,300 PO assists, #1 most all time and James will probably not catch him
h) Magic was top three in assists for 9 seasons

Magic is Magic after all.

[StrongLurk]

If magic isn't top 20 wtf is steph? Magic had a better finals as a rookie than steph ever had.

Steph won an organic ring (drafted by Warriors, was not a superteam) in 2015 as the teams top scorer. Magic's combination of collusion and superteams makes his rings worthless...well according to some posters who use that logic.

[tontoz]

Of course I might have guessed, a LeBron stan still seething about his first round exit and Giannis winning without colluding.



:cry:

[MadDog]

Idk but he's definitely better than LeBron. Better floor general and conductor of an offense. Post Kareem, didn't pack up and go play with Jordan either. Magic left it all on the floor and revolutionized the fast break.

[StrongLurk]

Idk but he's definitely better than LeBron. Better floor general and conductor of an offense. Post Kareem, didn't pack up and go play with Jordan either. Magic left it all on the floor and revolutionized the fast break.

Magic was NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer?

[MadDog]

Magic was NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer?

Didn't need to. In every finals made, Magic led the Laker offense averaging 10+ assists. In the finals won, he averaged 13. GOAT conductor.

[Xiao Yao You]

Magic was NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer?

pg's rarely led their teams in scoring at that time. He certainly could have been one of the top scorers in the league if he'd chose to but he wouldn't have won as much

[StrongLurk]

Didn't need to. In every finals made, Magic led the Laker offense averaging 10+ assists. In the finals won, he averaged 13. GOAT conductor.

Scoring skills>assist skills.

The best players of all time are routinely the best scorers/best producers. Otoh, Magic was often the second or third scorer on his superteam.

There is a reason Magic "didn't need to" be the top producer on his Lakers teams...and that's because they were the supreme superteam of the 80's decade.

[MadDog]

Scoring skills>assist skills.

Magic had both :confusedshrug:

[clipps]

Not gonna lie. I always thought Magic was the most overrated play maker. Pretty pedestrian passer if you ask me.

[StrongLurk]

Magic had both :confusedshrug:

Scoring skills>assist skills.

The best players of all time are routinely the best scorers/best producers. Otoh, Magic was often the second or third scorer on his superteam.

There is a reason Magic "didn't need to" be the top producer on his Lakers teams...and that's because they were the supreme superteam of the 80's decade. He could never produce like MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Bird, Curry.

[MadDog]

Scoring skills>assist skills.

Why are you repeating yourself? Again, Magic had both.

[SouBeachTalents]

Idk but he's definitely better than LeBron. Better floor general and conductor of an offense. Post Kareem, didn't pack up and go play with Jordan either. Magic left it all on the floor and revolutionized the fast break.
Amazing he didn't leave in the 2 seasons he played without Kareem after winning FIVE titles in a decade :oldlol: Truly admirable stuff. Though it's not like he didn't try to leave before

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/11/19/sports/earvin-johnson-seeks-a-trade.html


The Los Angeles Lakers' guard Earvin (Magic) Johnson, citing differences with Coach Paul Westhead, said tonight that he wanted to be traded. Johnson said that he planned to talk with the team's owner, Jerry Buss, tomorrow.

''I can't play here anymore,'' Johnson said after the Lakers' 113-110 victory over the Utah Jazz. ''I want to leave. I want to be traded.''

[StrongLurk]

Amazing he didn't leave in the 2 seasons he played without Kareem after winning FIVE titles in a decade :oldlol: Truly admirable stuff. Though it's not like he didn't try to leave before

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/11/19/sports/earvin-johnson-seeks-a-trade.html

Lebron haters like maddog just can't use consistent logic. It's a shame to see.

[StrongLurk]

Why are you repeating yourself? Again, Magic had both.

Because you aren't grasping the simple historical record below.

The best players of all time are routinely the best scorers/best producers. Otoh, Magic was often the second or third scorer on his superteam.

There is a reason Magic "didn't need to" be the top producer on his Lakers teams...and that's because they were the supreme superteam of the 80's decade. He could never produce like MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Bird, Curry.

[MadDog]

Amazing he didn't leave in the 2 seasons he played without Kareem after winning FIVE titles in a decade :oldlol: Truly admirable stuff. Though it's not like he didn't try to leave before

https://www.nytimes.com/1981/11/19/sports/earvin-johnson-seeks-a-trade.html

Didn't say anything about "admirable" but hey, if that's what you think? :confusedshrug: Someone should've gave LeBron that memo.


Because you aren't grasping the simple historical record below.

The best players of all time are routinely the best scorers/best producers. Otoh, Magic was often the second or third scorer on his superteam.

There is a reason Magic "didn't need to" be the top producer on his Lakers teams...and that's because they were the supreme superteam of the 80's decade. He could never produce like MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Bird, Curry.

I already told you Magic bucked the trend. Do you need a sippy cup?

[StrongLurk]

Magic was only 5-4 in the Finals with Kareem, including an asterisk ring (bad call), so they can't BOTH be top 5 - someone's gotta drop, and I chose the ball-dominant, weak jumpshooting Magic, despite his otherworldly passing (a secondary skill).

So I have Magic #11 all-time (lebron #12)... both are sub-par jumpshooters and ball-dominators with underwhelming team ceilings/Finals records

:roll::roll::roll:

The resident ISH nutcase coming to prove just how dumb he really is.

[3ba11]

Because you aren't grasping the simple historical record below.

The best players of all time are routinely the best scorers/best producers. Otoh, Magic was often the second or third scorer on his superteam.

There is a reason Magic "didn't need to" be the top producer on his Lakers teams...and that's because they were the supreme superteam of the 80's decade. He could never produce like MJ, Lebron, Kobe, Bird, Curry.


Magic was only 5-4 in the Finals with Kareem, including an asterisk ring (bad call), so they can't BOTH be top 5 - someone's gotta drop, and I chose the ball-dominant, weak jumpshooting Magic, despite his otherworldly passing (a secondary skill).

So I have Magic #11 all-time (lebron #12)... both are sub-par jumpshooters and big ball-dominators with underwhelming team ceilings/Finals records

[3ba11]

:roll::roll::roll:

The resident ISH nutcase coming to prove just how dumb he really is.


What's so funny about that.. I think I'm being pretty consistent

[StrongLurk]

Magic was only 5-4 in the Finals with Kareem, including an asterisk ring (bad call), so they can't BOTH be top 5 - someone's gotta drop, and I chose the ball-dominant, weak jumpshooting Magic, despite his otherworldly passing (a secondary skill).

So I have Magic #11 all-time (lebron #12)... both are sub-par jumpshooters and ball-dominators with underwhelming team ceilings/Finals records

Magic could never produce like Lebron did...Lebron lead his teams in production the vast majority of his career. Magic isn't even in the same realm according to your logic. Is Magic even top twenty?

[3ba11]

Magic could never produce like Lebron did...Lebron lead his teams in production the vast majority of his career. Magic isn't even in the same realm according to your logic. Is Magic even top twenty?


Maybe Magic isn't top 20 because he'd be ringless without Kareem... But I think that putting him at #11 is enough of a compromise to account for his colluding

Him and Lebron should be ranked close together regardless of where they get ranked

[StrongLurk]

Maybe Magic isn't top 20 because he'd be ringless without Kareem... But I think that putting him at #11 is enough of a compromise to account for his colluding

:roll:

You really are dumb. Instead of doubling down on your ridiculous Magic/Lebron statements...maybe you should examine your logic more critically.

[3ba11]

:roll:

You really are dumb.


Neither Lebron or Magic are top 10, that's for sure - a couple bricklaying colluders with weak team ceilings

[StrongLurk]

Neither Lebron or Magic are top 10, that's for sure - a couple bricklaying colluders with weak team ceilings

Instead of doubling down on your ridiculous Magic/Lebron statements...maybe you should examine your logic more critically.

[3ba11]

Instead of doubling down on your ridiculous Magic/Lebron statements...maybe you should examine your logic more critically.


what's wrong with it

[StrongLurk]

what's wrong with it

Magic and Lebron are clearly top ten (Lebron top 3-4) players of all time you retarded psychopath.

Being "consistent" with dumb logic is STILL dumb logic...consistently dumb. Get it?

[SouBeachTalents]

Neither Lebron or Magic are top 10, that's for sure - a couple bricklaying colluders with weak team ceilings
Who's in your top 10 over them, can't wait to see this :lol

[StrongLurk]

Also if people can't tell, I was making a troll thread to entice some of ISH's dumb/insane posters to join in and expose more of their horrible takes/basketball opinions.

We've got a few classics in here.

[MadDog]

Also if people can't tell, I was making a troll thread to entice some of ISH's dumb/insane posters to join in and expose more of their horrible takes/basketball opinions.

We've got a few classics in here.

What did you accomplish? Well, besides throwing around bad arguments, and me destroying them :confusedshrug:

[And1AllDay]

:roll::roll::roll:

The resident ISH nutcase coming to prove just how dumb he really is.

at least when people see his posts they understand why we have to troll back

there is no other response :oldlol:

[Bawkish]

so what's next: Westbrook is better than Bird because duh, triple doubles

[MadDog]

so what's next: Westbrook is better than Bird because duh, triple doubles

I still don't know what OP thought he was doing. Guy claims he wanted to "bait" haters by trolling. :oldlol: Guess calling Magic Top 20 showed us!

[And1AllDay]

Also if people can't tell, I was making a troll thread to entice some of ISH's dumb/insane posters to join in and expose more of their horrible takes/basketball opinions.

We've got a few classics in here.

we knew it brody :cheers:

only ppgz matters to the idiot jordan stains :oldlol:

but thats not reality becos...thats why russell, duncan, bird, magic are in the top ten when they are not premium scorers like bran, kobe, wilt, mike, west

[Soundwave]

I love Magic Johnson but I do think he is a little overrated.

If he was just Earvin Johnson and wasn't the "Magic" persona I don't think he'd be ranked as highly.

He's not better than say Shaq or Kobe, probably not even better than Hakeem Olajuwon. He just played on better teams and has a more captivating/fun personality that helped grow the NBA tremendously as part of the Magic Vs. Bird rivalry.

But I don't think he's actually like the literal 4th or 5th best player to play. Ditto for Bill Russell ... great human being, but he's not one of the ten best to actually play the game.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Nope, you have to be either a great scorer or a great defender to be in the top 20 all time and magic is neither of them.

He always had very good to great scorers like Kareem and worthy. His longevity sucks because he got aids. His usage was also very low as well and he would get picked on defensively. Not a great 1 on 1 scorer which is what you need in today's era or any era.

He's basically Steve Nash if he was black, 6"9, had aids and amare was Kareem Abdul jabaar.

What do people consider Steve Nash? Around top 25-30 and that's what magic was

[Bawkish]

I still don't know what OP thought he was doing. Guy claims he wanted to "bait" haters by trolling. :oldlol: Guess calling Magic Top 20 showed us!

Magic has a complete offensive arsenal. He could score (he's a scorer from his high school days), has a great floor vision, was a post-up nightmare and a triple double machine

Black Steve Nash my a$$

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Magic has a complete offensive arsenal. He could score (he's a scorer from his high school days), has a great floor vision, was a post-up nightmare and a triple double machine

Black Steve Nash my a$$

Playoff runs over 21PPG:

Nash = 1
Magic = 1

They both had that outlier scoring run in 2005 and 1990 but the rest of the time they were usually high teens or low 20's Scottie pippen type scorers. I don't see magic as the type who would take someone one on one and score.

Kawhi Leonard already has 5 playoff runs over 21PPG and he'll most likely have at least 5-6 more

[3ba11]

Magic and Lebron are clearly top ten (Lebron top 3-4) players of all time you retarded psychopath.

Being "consistent" with dumb logic is STILL dumb logic...consistently dumb. Get it?


It isn't dumb logic to say that 5-4 is a horrific Finals record/team ceiling to have with Kareem.

There's no way that 2 top five players can have such a bad Finals record, which means one of them isn't top 5... Again, it's clearly Magic that isn't top 5 because his skillset suffers the same low ceiling of ALL ball-dominators and sub-par jumpshooters..

Lebron and Magic are 9-10 in the Finals - so they have shit team ceilings and aren't top 10 - they would have zero rings without colluding for the extra talent to offset their suboptimal brand (ball-dominance).

There's nothing wrong with that logic.. carry on with your delusion

[And1AllDay]

It isn't dumb logic to say that 5-4 is a horrific Finals record/team ceiling to have with Kareem.

There's no way that 2 top five players can have such a bad Finals record, which means one of them isn't top 5... Again, it's clearly Magic that isn't top 5 because his skillset suffers the same low ceiling of ALL ball-dominators and sub-par jumpshooters..

Lebron and Magic are 9-10 in the Finals - so they have shit team ceilings and aren't top 10 - they would have zero rings without colluding for the extra talent to offset their suboptimal brand (ball-dominance).

There's nothing wrong with that logic.. carry on with your delusion

mikes ceiling is 6 finals..

bran made 10
magic 9
karreem 10

mikes a little lite on achievements :oldlol: not magic

[Hey Yo]

Idk but he's definitely better than LeBron. Better floor general and conductor of an offense. Post Kareem, didn't pack up and go play with Jordan either. Magic left it all on the floor and revolutionized the fast break.
Magic signed s 25yr contract... he wasn't going anywhere.

[3ba11]

mikes ceiling is 6 finals..

bran made 10
magic 9
karreem 10

mikes a little lite on achievements :oldlol: not magic


Finals wins > conference finals wins

especially when you have the worst Finals teams in 3-pointer history (worst-ever Finals record), which means you weren't Finals caliber but were getting free trips to the Finals via weak conference.

[Hey Yo]

Ad a rookie he played center in game 7 of the finals, taking Kareem's place who was out hurt, and dropped 42. He could score big when he wanted to.

Just because he wasn't the leading scorer does mean he wasn't the best offensive player on every team he played on.

Myth....

Magic repped LA for the jump ball, then played 1-4 when needed. Teammate Jamaal Wlikes added 37-10 and was the leading scorer until towards the end of the game when Magic was purposely getting fouled.

[000]

No. Magic isnt even a top 20 point guard of all time

[2much_knowledge]

The trolling in here is too much haha.

[Stephonit]

Magic is definitely a very good player so top 20 is certainly possible. I am skeptical though if he is a top 10 guy. Much is made of his rivalry with Larry Bird and how it helped the NBA grow. That right there is reason for the NBA to find ways to help him especially after Bird's decline. His sudden free throw attempt improvement in the latter half of his career I find fishy. I think he had only one convincing MVP season. He played his whole career on a strong team and was generally in the weaker conference. It defies logic that both he and Kareem can be considered by some to be top 5 guys given their team record which while great isn't as dominant as others especially with the strong supporting cast they had. Top 20 yes. Top 10 no.

[RogueBorg]

3x MVP
3x FMVP
12x All-Star
10x All-NBA
2x All-Star game MVP
2x Steals Champ
4x Assist Champ
Hall of Famer

All of this says STFU

[coastalmarker99]

Anyone that doesn't have Magic as a top ten player of all time should be slapped.



All you need to know is how legendary Magic was is if he was never drafted by LA.




Then Kareem nowadays wouldn't even be ranked as a top 5 player of all time.

[coastalmarker99]

Before Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem playing alongside some of the most talented players in the league...and were basically either early-round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

Now with Magic...LA immediately won a title. They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to nine Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and five titles.

After Kareem retired ...the Lakers actually improved the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year. Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another final.

Then after Magic...the Lakers immediately plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.

BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in eight of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

So it is very clear as to who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years between Magic and Kareem.


Also if we examine Kareem's only title without Magic in the 1971 season.

The Bucks were wiped out by the Knicks in the previous season, 4-1. They subsequently acquired Oscar and ran roughshod over the NBA in '71. Kareem was magnificent that season (IMHO it was his greatest all-around season if you include the post-season.)

However, has any title team ever had an easier road to a title than Kareem's Bucks that year? They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round of the playoffs.

Then, in the next round, they beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without their second and third best players in the entire post-season (West and Baylor), and while an aged Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery battled Kareem to a statistical draw, the Bucks overwhelming edge in talent was just too much for LA to overcome.

Then, Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

[RogueBorg]

How many FMVP votes does Steph have?

[And1AllDay]

Before Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem playing alongside some of the most talented players in the league...and were basically either early-round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

Now with Magic...LA immediately won a title. They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to nine Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and five titles.

After Kareem retired ...the Lakers actually improved the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year. Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another final.

Then after Magic...the Lakers immediately plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.

BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in eight of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

So it is very clear as to who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years between Magic and Kareem.


Also if we examine Kareem's only title without Magic in the 1971 season.

The Bucks were wiped out by the Knicks in the previous season, 4-1. They subsequently acquired Oscar and ran roughshod over the NBA in '71. Kareem was magnificent that season (IMHO it was his greatest all-around season if you include the post-season.)

However, has any title team ever had an easier road to a title than Kareem's Bucks that year? They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round of the playoffs.

Then, in the next round, they beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without their second and third best players in the entire post-season (West and Baylor), and while an aged Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery battled Kareem to a statistical draw, the Bucks overwhelming edge in talent was just too much for LA to overcome.

Then, Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

bangg!!

[Hey Yo]

3x MVP
3x FMVP
12x All-Star
10x All-NBA
2x All-Star game MVP
2x Steals Champ
4x Assist Champ
Hall of Famer

All of this says STFU

All that, yet he couldn't shoot nor was he ever the guy asked to play lockdown defense.

Cant shoot and cant play defense but top 5 player of all time????

More like the luckiest player of all time

[coastalmarker99]

All that, yet he couldn't shoot nor was he ever the guy asked to play lockdown defense.

Cant shoot and cant play defense but top 5 player of all time????

More like the luckiest player of all time


You know nothing about Basketball if you think Magic is the luckiest player of alltime.



Magic engineered the Showtime Laker's offence. As no player was ever a more effective "coast-to-coast" player than Magic. Or forcing opposing teams to play at light-speed. And his brilliant passing basically forced opposing defences to have to defend every Laker player.

His overall contributions went far beyond the scoring, rebounding, and assists...

He simply made everyone around him so much better. My god, KAJ's FG%'s went thru the roof after Magic arrived. Worthy put up some ungodly FG% post-seasons.

[coastalmarker99]

All that, yet he couldn't shoot nor was he ever the guy asked to play lockdown defense.

Cant shoot and cant play defense but top 5 player of all time????

More like the luckiest player of all time

Go look at the 1991 Lakers team, that wasn't a very good team. They had no business getting to the finals(Portland was not only the favourite to win the west that year but the title.).


But they upset them due to Magic's brilliant play(particularly when it comes to controlling the pace).

I mean the same Lakers squad become a treadmill team the minute Magic retired(record of 43-39 in 1992).

[Hey Yo]

You know nothing about Basketball if you think Magic is the luckiest player of alltime.



Magic engineered the Showtime Laker's offence. As no player was ever a more effective "coast-to-coast" player than Magic. Or forcing opposing teams to play at light-speed. And his brilliant passing basically forced opposing defences to have to defend every Laker player.

His overall contributions went far beyond the scoring, rebounding, and assists...

He simply made everyone around him so much better. My god, KAJ's FG%'s went thru the roof after Magic arrived. Worthy put up some ungodly FG% post-seasons.

What other superstar has never been asked to not concentrate on scoring or asked to at least play avg. Defense??

Riley came to him before the 1987 season and asked him to score more instead of the assists. Magic then asked Riley if he got approval from Kareem and said he did.

If he had stayed in school due to LA losing the coin toss.... GS and Dallas had the top 2 picks. Think he gets the luxury on either team to be a pass first/ defense last player and winning titles right out of the gate??

[coastalmarker99]

What other superstar has never been asked to not concentrate on scoring or asked to at least play avg. Defense??

Riley came to him before the 1987 season and asked him to score more instead of the assists. Magic then asked Riley if he got approval from Kareem and said he did.

If he had stayed in school due to LA losing the coin toss.... GS and Dallas had the top 2 picks. Think he gets the luxury on either team to be a pass first/ defense last player and winning titles right out of the gate??


I don't think he wins titles on Dallas and GS but I do think at the very least that he makes a couple finals with both teams.




But you could say the same for the 80's Lakers as Magic was the heart and soul of those Showtime teams.

[Hey Yo]

I don't think he wins titles on Dallas and GS but I do think at the very least that he makes a couple finals with both teams.




But you could say the same for the 80's Lakers as Magic was the heart and soul of those Showtime teams.

He was the heart and soul of running the offense, just not the one finishing the plays.

Just blows my mind that point forward like Magic couldn't shoot the damn ball. He had no jumper, no face to basket pull-up. If the Mark Jackson rule existed back then, where would Magic get his offense from then??

[Xiao Yao You]

I don't think he wins titles on Dallas and GS but I do think at the very least that he makes a couple finals with both teams.




But you could say the same for the 80's Lakers as Magic was the heart and soul of those Showtime teams.

Dallas was probably more talented than the Lakers outside Magic. Magic made guys better than they were.

[Hey Yo]

He definitely made guys look better cause that was his job. Set guys up to succeed and score.

That role is a hell of a lot easier than being a score first, then great defense next. Magic wasn't asked to score first until his 8th year in and never was expected to play even avg. defense. That's why his assignment was usually the least scoring threat.

Great player, but overrated.

[HoopsNY]

It isn't dumb logic to say that 5-4 is a horrific Finals record/team ceiling to have with Kareem.

There's no way that 2 top five players can have such a bad Finals record, which means one of them isn't top 5... Again, it's clearly Magic that isn't top 5 because his skillset suffers the same low ceiling of ALL ball-dominators and sub-par jumpshooters..

Lebron and Magic are 9-10 in the Finals - so they have shit team ceilings and aren't top 10 - they would have zero rings without colluding for the extra talent to offset their suboptimal brand (ball-dominance).

There's nothing wrong with that logic.. carry on with your delusion

What a horrible take. No regard for the actual opponents these guys faced. It's as if the Lakers weren't facing all-time great teams like Bird and the Celtics or Moses and the Sixers (an "inorganic" team).

It's as if LeBron didn't face all-time great teams like the 2017 and 2018 Warriors or also stacked teams like the 2014 Spurs.

These debates and basing them off of finals records are pretty ridiculous.

[TheMan]

Magic said he would've gone back to college if he wasn't able to play with the Lakers...so he was colluding from the get go and formed the foundation of the league's biggest superteam of the 80's.

Magic was also NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer? What separates him from guys like Steve Nash, Chris Paul and other similar ball-dominating point guards besides the fact that he had a superteam to help manufacture his resume?Me; clicks on the first thread at the top of the NBA forum...

Also me; reads OP and thinks "Ok, that's enough of the NBA forum for today..." :facepalm

[Hey Yo]

Me; clicks on the first thread at the top of the NBA forum...

Also me; reads OP and thinks "Ok, that's enough of the NBA forum for today..." :facepalm

Dont let the door break the taco in your back pocket.

[TheMan]

Dont let the door break the taco in your back pocket.

The OP's take is moronic, that you agree isn't a bit surprising...changing subjects, at least I know how to spell basic English words, like borders isn't spelled boarders.

[Hey Yo]

The OP's take is moronic, that you agree isn't a bit surprising...changing subjects, at least I know how to spell basic English words, like borders isn't spelled boarders.

I never said he wasn't top 20, chico... just overrated.

[And1AllDay]

Magic Johnson is well above the top 20 range, he is well above the top 15 and top 10 range. He is ranked 7th via my Magic formula for a number of reasons.

a) Magic is 5th all time for MVP win shares, only James, Jordan, Kareem, and Bird are higher
b) Magic has 9 all NBA 1st teams, 4th most all time
c) Magic has the most playoff assists in NBA history, 1st all time
d) Magic has three Finals MVPs, only James and Jordan have more
e) Magic has five rings
f) Magic has 5th most PO win shares, only James, Jordan, Duncan, and Kareem are higher
g) Magic has over 2,300 PO assists, #1 most all time and James will probably not catch him
h) Magic was top three in assists for 9 seasons

Magic is Magic after all.

baaang!!

[2much_knowledge]

All that, yet he couldn't shoot nor was he ever the guy asked to play lockdown defense.

Cant shoot and cant play defense but top 5 player of all time????

More like the luckiest player of all time

He is a winner. Plain and simple. Won H.S, Ncaa and Nba back to back to back

Finals the 1st year, finals the last year. Since the objective is to win, he was one of the very best at it

[tontoz]

Magic shot 85% from the foul line for his career so yes he could shoot. He didn't shoot 3s for most of his career but did have one season taking 3.5 3s per game shooting 38.4%.

[FKAri]

Is Magic Johnson even a player?

[Chick Stern]

If not for the HIV, Magic would be in the GOAT conversation.
In the Finals 75% of his career.
In head to head Finals competition, Magic only lost to Bird once.

[bizil]

Magic had both :confusedshrug:

DAMN RIGHT!!! Magic and Isiah were the ULTIMATE PASS FIRST PG's. By that I mean, it was IN THEIR NATURE to pass first. And if they have the PROPER TEAM of scorers, pass second. But they ALSO had alpha dog scoring credibility! They could dominate game scoring when they needed OR wanted to! So posters who AREN'T students of the game think Magic DIDN'T have alpha dog scoring credibility. Because he never averaged over 25 PPG or won a scoring title. But Magic and Isiah were the RARE PG's with that type of thought process who ALSO had alpha dog scoring credbility. CP3 is the closest we have to that in today's game.

[Pointguard]

Magic was NEVER the top producer of his teams winning rings. Sometimes he was even the third best scorer on the team. So how do we know Magic can win without super-teams as the clear-cut top producer? What separates him from guys like Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook and other similar ball-dominating point guards besides the fact that he had a superteam to help manufacture his resume?

You realize he had a better winning percentage without Kareem. That alone would qualify him. His team rarely shot under 50% and one year shot 545. That great shooting Golden State team only once to 50% at .503. His team won 63 games without Kareem and he was the top scorer. He also won 57 games and made the finals as the top scorer and would have won the chip that year if he didn't run into Jordan on a mission. None for the guys you mentioned have done anything like that. Westbrook had two MVP's and the best scorers ever on his team. And they weren't scoring or getting assist like him. Magic was super clutch... .

[Pointguard]

It isn't dumb logic to say that 5-4 is a horrific Finals record/team ceiling to have with Kareem.
Didn't Kareem play like ten years and he won once before Magic? And those were his prime years.



There's no way that 2 top five players can have such a bad Finals record, which means one of them isn't top 5... Again, it's clearly Magic that isn't top 5 because his skillset suffers the same low ceiling of ALL ball-dominators and sub-par jumpshooters..
Who had the best front court in the league when Magic won a majority of his rings?


Lebron and Magic are 9-10 in the Finals - so they have shit team ceilings and aren't top 10 - they would have zero rings without colluding for the extra talent to offset their suboptimal brand (ball-dominance).
Magic's teams were optimal scoring teams. Its a joke to compare any team to them.

[TheCorporation]

Magic is 3rd in my books

1. LeBron
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Wilt

[coastalmarker99]

Magic is 3rd in my books

1. LeBron
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Wilt


My top 5 players of all-time list is

1 Wilt

2 Lebron

3 Jordan

4 Kareem

5 Russell