Clyde Drexler or Jimmy Butler?

[Shooter]

Was LBJ's "weakest" Finals opponent better than MJ's best?

[ImKobe]

Lebron went 6 games vs. a Heat team that had injuries to 2 of their best 3 players. Butler also had a higher GameScore for the series. MJ never got outplayed on the big stage.

[ArbitraryWater]

Butler probably better, yeah

[Charlie Sheen]

Butler probably better, yeah

It's a tough one because it can start the argument of value offense vs. defense. Then Jimmy's finals was nuts. That starts an argument about comparing across eras. Not saying you're wrong... or right :lol

[BigShotBob]

Butler probably better, yeah

Asinine.

Drexler was a far better offensive player.

[insight]

Jimmy Butler should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Clyde Drexler. Jimmy is not a first ballot Hall of famer, and has zero chips, Phi Slamma Jama. Some of you guys are straight talking alternative facts!

[PeroAntic]

Butler is better. Much more complete as a basketball player. Neither he is Lebron's weakest finals opponent nor is Drexler Jordan's strongest. Lebron's weakest finals opponent is Jason Terry while Jordans strongest opponent was Barkley or Malone.

[Full Court]

Was LBJ's "weakest" Finals opponent better than MJ's best?

MJ's best? How in your confused brain do you think Clyde Drexler was better than Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, etc.?

[insight]

Butler is better. Much more complete as a basketball player. Neither he is Lebron's weakest finals opponent nor is Drexler Jordan's strongest. Lebron's weakest finals opponent is Jason Terry while Jordans strongest opponent was Barkley or Malone.

So Bulter is a top 50 player in NBA History?
Drexler and Jordan had a rivalry because many people in that era claimed Drexler was better than Jordan. Michael was offended by this at tried to destroy Drexler every time they played. Jimmy Buckets has never been on that level it's laughable to make the comparison.

[Shooter]

Butler is better. Much more complete as a basketball player. Neither he is Lebron's weakest finals opponent nor is Drexler Jordan's strongest. Lebron's weakest finals opponent is Jason Terry while Jordans strongest opponent was Barkley or Malone.

Dirk > Malone

Next

[Shooter]

So Bulter is a top 50 player in NBA History?

Clyde sure isn't :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

Drexler

[1987_Lakers]

Drexler is one of those past players whos stock has dropped considerably as the years have gone by. When I first joined ISH, he was mostly considered a top 5 SG ever, now he is rarely talked about, not as highly regarded, some don't even have him in their top 50 list.

He benefited with playing on a Portland team that ran like crazy, most of his points came in transition, not really a great half court scorer, good passer, but a "meh" defender. He also would be considered a below average ball handler & shooter if he played today. He had many flaws in his game. He still probably ranks ahead of Butler all-time just because he has more individual accolades, but the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that I'd rather have Butler on my team.

[PeroAntic]

So Bulter is a top 50 player in NBA History?
Drexler and Jordan had a rivalry because many people in that era claimed Drexler was better than Jordan. Michael was offended by this at tried to destroy Drexler every time they played. Jimmy Buckets has never been on that level it's laughable to make the comparison.

Jimmy is a more cerebral and skilled player, and a much better defender... Drexler was a runner, the only thing he has over Jimmy is athleticism but thats not enough to be better.

[insight]

Clyde sure isn't :lol

He is not only in your young mind. Drexler is Top 50! Just take the L, it was a bad comparison.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed

[1987_Lakers]

He is not only in your young mind. Drexler is Top 50! Just take the L, it was a bad comparison.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed

In no world is Drexler ranked ahead of guys like Rick Barry, Nash, Ewing, & Isiah Thomas. What a trash list.

[insight]

Jimmy is a more cerebral and skilled player, and a much better defender... Drexler was a runner, the only thing he has over Jimmy is athleticism but thats not enough to be better.

Not true at all, you bringing a knife a gun fight, Jimmy Buckets is not in Drexler's league.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V88F9c7kLFE

[Bronbron23]

Was LBJ's "weakest" Finals opponent better than MJ's best?

Holy shit these bron stains are in full meltdown lately. Nobody wanted jimmy butler just a year ago now all of a sudden he's better than Drexler.

[PeroAntic]

Not true at all, you bringing a knife a gun fight, Jimmy Buckets is not in Drexler's league.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V88F9c7kLFE

Jimmy is a swiss knife :D

We know Drexler can jump higher and run faster. But thats about it. In terms of IQ, skill, teamwork, defensive ability, Jimmy is better. Jimmy is one of the most underrated players ever. For me its hard to separate him and Kawhi, thats how good he is.

[AirBonner]

The modern nba is slowly erasing the past. Westbrook passed Oscar now Butler is over Drexler

[Im so nba'd out]

Things get better as time goes on....Clyde Drexler had to look the at the ball while he dribbled......and this was a prime time player in his era :oldlol:



is this some sort of sick fking joke or something? Jimmy Butler is lightyears a head of clyde drexler...clyde fraizier.... and any other clyde u can name

[Bronbron23]

The modern nba is slowly erasing the past. Westbrook passed Oscar now Butler is over Drexler

Or this forum is just full of mental health patients who don't know the game:facepalm

[Shooter]

Drexler cant even dribble with his left hand

Next

[Shooter]

He is not only in your young mind. Drexler is Top 50! Just take the L, it was a bad comparison.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2854727-bleacher-reports-all-time-player-rankings-nbas-top-50-revealed

WRONG

Next

[Bronbron23]

A year ago this would of been a tarded comparison. Still is but i guess the moral of the story here is if you want to improve your career just play lebron in the finals. He almost always allows his direct competition to dominate.

Let Jimmy butler look like mj
Let kd get 2 fmvp's and look like the goat
Let iggy a role player look like a star and win fmvp
Let baby kawhi get a fmvp
Let dirk win a chip and fmvp with a worse team.

Apparently lebron is this great defender but if your a foward playing against him in the finals it's like Christmas.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Far as careers its not even close. Drexler is tiers above.

Prime vs prime is closer though. I like Jimmy's defense and shooting more. His leadership too. Glide had better athleticism, playmaking and was definitely the better scorer.

[ImKobe]

A year ago this would of been a tarded comparison. Still is but i guess the moral of the story here is if you want to improve your career just play lebron in the finals. He almost always allows his direct competition to dominate.

Let Jimmy butler look like mj
Let kd get 2 fmvp's and look like the goat
Let iggy a role player look like a star and win fmvp
Let baby kawhi get a fmvp
Let dirk win a chip and fmvp with a worse team.

Apparently lebron is this great defender but if your a foward playing against him in the finals it's like Christmas.

Exactly. Lebron's been outplayed by his match-up all of his last 3 Finals. Lakers slowed down Butler by putting AD on him. He was killing Lebron prior to that.

[Hey Yo]

Butler is better. Much more complete as a basketball player. Neither he is Lebron's weakest finals opponent nor is Drexler Jordan's strongest. Lebron's weakest finals opponent is Jason Terry while Jordans strongest opponent was Barkley or Malone.

Terry was the Mavs first option on offense?

[Hey Yo]

A year ago this would of been a tarded comparison. Still is but i guess the moral of the story here is if you want to improve your career just play lebron in the finals. He almost always allows his direct competition to dominate.

Let Jimmy butler look like mj
Let kd get 2 fmvp's and look like the goat
Let iggy a role player look like a star and win fmvp
Let baby kawhi get a fmvp
Let dirk win a chip and fmvp with a worse team.

Apparently lebron is this great defender but if your a foward playing against him in the finals it's like Christmas.

How was MJ's defense in his 9th finals in 10yrs? Or KD's in his 7th and 8th consecutive Finals?

Iggy and Kawhi's was due to defense. Highly doubt MJ takes 2 games from PHX if he was missing Pip and Grant for the entire series.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Jimmy Butler is a better player due to better efficiency, better ball handling, and much better defensive player as Clyde never even made an all defensive team. Also Butler just seems like the way tougher player. I don't see Drexler turning a Karl Anthony Towns team into a top 9 defense, twolves held teams to a 107.8 offense when Butler was on the court which is still a top 9 defense and that's a miracle with ***** KAT defending the pick and roll.

37-22 record for Butler when he played on the twolves in 2017\18, that's a miracle on a KAT Twolves dumpster team. Top 9 defense with him on court and still ended bottom 3.

best player on the 2019 76ers who pushed raptors further then anybody else

2020 best player on finals team

2021 probably his best regular season yet

I don't think Drexler ever had that good of a 4 year stretch.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jimmy Butler should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as Clyde Drexler. Jimmy is not a first ballot Hall of famer, and has zero chips, Phi Slamma Jama. Some of you guys are straight talking alternative facts!

Oh and Drexler has "chips" ? Jimmy wouldnt be able to ride Hakeem's coattails? **** outta here simpleton dumbass

[ArbitraryWater]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dadoOIGSkx8



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRIkJ46ILQ

[Bronbron23]

How was MJ's defense in his 9th finals in 10yrs? Or KD's in his 7th and 8th consecutive Finals?

Iggy and Kawhi's was due to defense. Highly doubt MJ takes 2 games from PHX if he was missing Pip and Grant for the entire series.

Mj definitely could of. What did bron do that was so amazing that series? He let his direct competition score 10 more points a game than he usually does. He also let his direct competition effect his efficiency by almost 10% which is pretty significant. Bron had alot of reb and assists which helped but literally anybody can score 35 points on 35 shots and anyone can hold their defensive assistant to 10 points above avg.

If bron shoots around 50% that series they probably win but he was forced to be a volume shooter which bron admitted wasn't his cup of tea. On the other hand Volume scoring is right up mj's alley. There's a great possibility mj shoots around 50% in that series. Iggy basically gave bron the mid which more often than not bron wanted no part of. In Brons defense he has improved alot in that area so don't think you could do that now.

[Bronbron23]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dadoOIGSkx8



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRIkJ46ILQ

So another small foward playing way above his ability against lebron is an argument for lebron how exactly :confusedshrug:

[Uncle Drew]

Drexler was just a product of his time. He'd be a bench warmer in today's league. 6th man tops.

[Hey Yo]

Mj definitely could of. What did bron do that was so amazing that series? He let his direct competition score 10 more points a game than he usually does. He also let his direct competition effect his efficiency by almost 10% which is pretty significant. Bron had alot of reb and assists which helped but literally anybody can score 35 points on 35 shots and anyone can hold their defensive assistant to 10 points above avg.

If bron shoots around 50% that series they probably win but he was forced to be a volume shooter which bron admitted wasn't his cup of tea. On the other hand Volume scoring is right up mj's alley. There's a great possibility mj shoots around 50% in that series. Iggy basically gave bron the mid which more often than not bron wanted no part of. In Brons defense he has improved alot in that area so don't think you could do that now.

MJ was basically spent in the PHX series. If he was expected to carry the scoring, rebounding and the defense like James was expected to do.... no chance he takes 2gms. Especially if he was playing in his 5th consecutive. MJ needed to walk away without even trying to go for 4 in row.... twice. So to critique Lebron's defense after his 3rd consecutive Finals is pretty dumb, considering MJ didnt even try. Plus we both know we'll never know what KD's defense will look like in his 7th and 8th consecutive Finals appearance.

[ArbitraryWater]

So another small foward playing way above his ability against lebron is an argument for lebron how exactly :confusedshrug:


Are you trolling or retarded?

[Bronbron23]

MJ was basically spent in the PHX series. If he was expected to carry the scoring, rebounding and the defense like James was expected to do.... no chance he takes 2gms. Especially if he was playing in his 5th consecutive. MJ needed to walk away without even trying to go for 4 in row.... twice. So to critique Lebron's defense after his 3rd consecutive Finals is pretty dumb, considering MJ didnt even try. Plus we both know we'll never know what KD's defense will look like in his 7th and 8th consecutive Finals appearance.

It's not a critique of his defense it just is what it is. Opposing fowards feast against lebron and his teams in the finals. Even ones that shouldn't. Those are just facts you can take from it what you want.

As far as mj who knows. It's all hypothetical. All we know is what we know and what we know is Opposing fowards play out of their mind against lebron.

[Bronbron23]

Are you trolling or retarded?

It's just a question little buddy you don't have to get butt hurt just because it's hard to answer.

Butler had the series of his life and one of the best finals ever in the history of the game. This is a guy who been a borderline all star his whole career. A guy who up until recently nobody wanted. He's a small foward. Lebron is a small foward.

It's a legit question and one we all know you would ask if it was mj.

It's ok though little buddy. Don't want to you hurt your little brain trying to figure this one out.

[Hey Yo]

It's not a critique of his defense it just is what it is. Opposing fowards feast against lebron and his teams in the finals. Even ones that shouldn't. Those are just facts you can take from it what you want.

As far as mj who knows. It's all hypothetical. All we know is what we know and what we know is Opposing fowards play out of their mind against lebron.

Not critiquing his defense??? Then what the hell you call it?

You're expecting him to carry loads that MJ was never asked to do. Like I said, if you want to call him out from 11-13 that's fine. But to bring up his defense in his 4th, 5th, 7th and 8th consecutive Finals is just asinine considering your boy wouldn't even try for 4 consecutive appearances.

[2much_knowledge]

You put prime drexler with Embid/Simmons and he sure as hell making it to the finals tho...

[Shooter]

How was MJ's defense in his 9th finals in 10yrs? Or KD's in his 7th and 8th consecutive Finals?

Iggy and Kawhi's was due to defense. Highly doubt MJ takes 2 games from PHX if he was missing Pip and Grant for the entire series.


Roasted his ass :lol

[Shooter]

Jimmy Butler is a better player due to better efficiency, better ball handling, and much better defensive player as Clyde never even made an all defensive team. Also Butler just seems like the way tougher player. I don't see Drexler turning a Karl Anthony Towns team into a top 9 defense, twolves held teams to a 107.8 offense when Butler was on the court which is still a top 9 defense and that's a miracle with ***** KAT defending the pick and roll.

37-22 record for Butler when he played on the twolves in 2017\18, that's a miracle on a KAT Twolves dumpster team. Top 9 defense with him on court and still ended bottom 3.

best player on the 2019 76ers who pushed raptors further then anybody else

2020 best player on finals team

2021 probably his best regular season yet

I don't think Drexler ever had that good of a 4 year stretch.

+1

[Bronbron23]

Not critiquing his defense??? Then what the hell you call it?

You're expecting him to carry loads that MJ was never asked to do. Like I said, if you want to call him out from 11-13 that's fine. But to bring up his defense in his 4th, 5th, 7th and 8th consecutive Finals is just asinine considering your boy wouldn't even try for 4 consecutive appearances.

I call it the truth and facts. It's not my problem you have an issue with facts.

As far mj dude just came off a theepeat and hus pops just died and he went and played baseball in memory of his pops.

And when you go out on top it's retiring. It's only quitting when you go out a loser. You as a bron fan should know that though. Bron has done it 3 times already

[Shooter]

Drexler was just a product of his time. He'd be a bench warmer in today's league. 6th man tops.

100%

90s Drexler would be Malik Beasley in the modern era.

Shit I might even take Khris Middleton over Drexler to be honest

[Shooter]

I call it the truth and facts. It's not my problem you have an issue with facts.

As far mj dude just came off a theepeat and hus pops just died and he went and played baseball in memory of his pops.

And when you go out on top it's retiring. It's only quitting when you go out a loser. You as a bron fan should know that though. Bron has done it 3 times already

Michael Quitdan QUIT 3 times.

1994
1999
2004

Next

[Manny98]

Butler easily

Better playmaker, way better defender, better at everything

[Manny98]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dadoOIGSkx8



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVRIkJ46ILQ

Drexler could never do this, not in his dreams

[SATAN]

Drexler

[HoopsNY]

Bran stans are pack of delusional simpletons. Every single raising or diminishing of a player boils down to Michael Jordan. Now they're having a go at Clyde.

Just not too long ago, MJ wouldn't hang in today's era because of his three point shooting; yet all of a sudden, Jimmy Butler is being given elite status and praise over Clyde.

This conversation isn't fair, simply because Butler is still in the midst of his prime and is only 30 years old. And the recency bias that people have is off of a playoffs and finals that saw everyone putting up monstrous numbers in the bubble. Guaranteed in any other year, Butler doesn't put up those numbers that he did in the finals.

Clyde was a phenomenal player whose defensive ability was far greater than people realize, largely because he was overshadowed by other defensive guards like Alvin Robertson, MJ, and Joe Dumars, all of whom were elite defensive players.

But Clyde was a good defensive player.

Here's what Kobe said about how he learned to play defense.


“I always admired Clyde. I always looked at how he defended. He understood how to use his hands and block the vision of the player with one hand while using the other as a threat to steal the ball, or shield it.

He also had great balance and used that to his advantage. The way I defend, in fact, can be attributed to Clyde. (And MJ, of course).”

“His shooting gave the Rockets another perimeter threat. And at 6 feet 7 inches, Drexler can defend against both shooting guards and small forwards.”

There’s somewhat of a mixed bag, as it relates to Drexler’s actual on-ball defense. Backpicks writer Ben Taylor suggests that Drexler was “questionable” as an on-ball defender, but improved as the likes of Buck Williams, Terry Porter and head coach Rick Adelman entered the fray. Yet, in the Oregon Encyclopedia, they cite that Drexler is “known for his head-down fast breaks and defensive prowess.”

In the Los Angeles Times’ Jun. 2, 1992 edition, Danny Ainge offered this assessment of Drexler:

“He plays defense, he rebounds, he blocks shots, he sets up his teammates and he scores. He does all the things very similar to what Michael Jordan does. And I don’t know how you could do all those things in a game on a team that has been averaging 60 wins for three years and not play hard.”

https://ripcityproject.com/2020/10/20/portland-trail-blazers-kobe-clyde-drexler/

Between the '85-'89 seasons, Clyde averaged 2.4 stls a game. And as late as the 1996 playoffs, he led all players in steals (2.6).

Clyde was a better scorer and playmaker than Jimmy. And Clyde did it in a defensive era, particularly in the early to mid-90s when things slowed down.

Clyde's Prime (1987-95)

RS: 23/7/6/2/1 on 48/32/80
Playoffs: 23/7/7/2/1 on 46/27/79

Butler's Prime (2015-21)

RS: 21/6/5/2/1 on 46/33/85
Playoffs: 21/6/5/2/1 on 46/35/85

This isn't to say that Butler can't end up with a better career than Clyde. He can. And he could potentially end up as the better player. But time will tell.

But the recency bias regarding Butler is because of his inflated stats in that NBA finals where he put 26/8/10/2/1 on 65% TS% in the bubble, where everybody was lighting it up.

But have people forgotten what Clyde did in the NBA finals to the Bad Boy Pistons? Clyde put up 27/8/6/2/1 on 60% TS% himself, against a ferocious defense. We saw what happened when Butler got defended by AD. What would have happened if he had to deal with Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, etc, with much stricter rules, and without a bubble where there's no home/away pressure from fans?

[LeCola]

So another small foward playing way above his ability against lebron is an argument for lebron how exactly :confusedshrug:

2020 - Butler
2020 Finals: 26.2/9.8/8.3 .552 FG
2020 Playoffs: 22.2/6.0/6.5 .488 FG

2018 - Durant
2018 Finals: 28.8/7.5/10.8 .526 FG
2018 Playoffs: 29.0/4.7/7.8 .487 FG

2017 - Durant
2017 Finals: 35.2/5.4/8.2 .556 FG
2017 Playoffs: 28.5/4.3/7.8 .556 FG

2015 - Iguodala
2015 Finals: 16.3/4.0/5.8 .521 FG
2015 Playoffs: 10.4/3.6/4.5 .474 FG

2014 - Kawhi
2014 Finals: 17.8/2.0/6.4 .612 FG
2014 Playoffs: 14.3/1.7/6.7 .510 FG

[kawhileonard2]

Clyde Drexler would be the 2nd best player in this era behind Kawhi.

[HoopsNY]

Drexler could never do this, not in his dreams

Right, which is why he dominated in the finals against one of the greatest defenses of all time; the Bad Boys Pistons. Clyde put up 27/8/6/2/1 on 60% TS%, without the luxury of not having to deal with any away game pressures and not having fans in the arena, added to the fact that there are relaxed defensive rules.

[HoopsNY]

2020 - Butler
2020 Finals: 26.2/9.8/8.3 .552 FG
2020 Playoffs: 22.2/6.0/6.5 .488 FG

2018 - Durant
2018 Finals: 28.8/7.5/10.8 .526 FG
2018 Playoffs: 29.0/4.7/7.8 .487 FG

2017 - Durant
2017 Finals: 35.2/5.4/8.2 .556 FG
2017 Playoffs: 28.5/4.3/7.8 .556 FG

2015 - Iguodala
2015 Finals: 16.3/4.0/5.8 .521 FG
2015 Playoffs: 10.4/3.6/4.5 .474 FG

2014 - Kawhi
2014 Finals: 17.8/2.0/6.4 .612 FG
2014 Playoffs: 14.3/1.7/6.7 .510 FG

LeBron is always praised as being the most "versatile" defensive player. I guess that means against every position except his own.

[And1AllDay]

Butler is better. Much more complete as a basketball player.

[insight]

Butler is better. Much more complete as a basketball player.

That's laughable, when has Jimmy Butler ever been compared to Jordan? You have know clue what you are talking about. Do you really think Jimmy Butler would be chosen to play on the DREAM TEAM? Do you really think Jimmy Butler is a first ballot Hall of Famer? Geez, we have youtube and the internet, it's amazing how little people know about NBA history.

[insight]

Drexler could never do this, not in his dreams
JIMMY BUTLTER DIDN"T EVEN MAKE THE ALL NBA FIRST TEAM! He barely made the All-star team! I guess Hakeem Olajuwon would not be able to stop Bam either.

[HoopsNY]

That's laughable, when has Jimmy Butler ever been compared to Jordan? You have know clue what you are talking about. Do you really think Jimmy Butler would be chosen to play on the DREAM TEAM? Do you really think Jimmy Butler is a first ballot Hall of Famer? Geez, we have youtube and the internet, it's amazing how little people know about NBA history.

It's recency bias. Butler gets overly praised for a finals that had everyone lighting it up. If Clyde is in that situation, he's going for 30/10/10 on 60% shooting.

Not to mention, when has Butler had the durability that Clyde had? Butler has played 11 seasons, he has been significantly injured in all of them with the exception of 2 seasons. In Clyde's first 9 seasons, he played in at least 73 games in every one of them.

The two are not close, but Bran stans have an agenda. The more stars they can diminish from the 80s and 90s, the more they can prop up their boy toy Bran.

And don't think that they have any respect for Butler. But because Butler did what he did against LAL, it suddenly means something. All these points are interconnected.

Give it time, they will also try to diminish Dominique, Shaq, Hakeem, etc. All it will take is a player of similar style and statistical output for them to then say, "those guys were trash...look at what this guy did!"

[Shooter]

Drexler was good.
For the 90s.

Butler is good for any time.

Butler > Drexler

There are 2 sides of the ball. Learn this.

[HoopsNY]

Bran stans want to crown Butler the GOAT after LeBron just off of one finals. Before last year's playoffs, Butler put up 18/6/4/2/0.5 on 44% in the playoffs. This is the level of idiocy of these guys. I guess Donovan Mitchell > Kobe after his series against Utah. :lol

[Shooter]

Bran stans want to crown Butler the GOAT after LeBron just off of one finals. Before last year's playoffs, Butler put up 18/6/4/2/0.5 on 44% in the playoffs. This is the level of idiocy of these guys. I guess Donovan Mitchell > Kobe after his series against Utah. :lol

De•fense

[Bronbron23]

Funny thing is butler is just a 90's style player. Not a great one but a decent one. That's the only reason he stands out now. It's because he's a tough aggressive old school player with a tough mentality. He'd just be par for the course in the 90's but in this bitch ass era he's pretty much one of a kind. A dying breed. Once butler and rondo are gone the nba is gonna be a certified gay parade and the bron stains on here are gonna be the the ones celebrating with their matching skirts and pom poms :facepalm

[Axe]

Well, drexler played in the soft 90s and you guys already know what that means.

[HoopsNY]

De•fense

The assumption is that Clyde was a bad defender. You started watching basketball in 2010, child. Don't act like you ever saw Clyde play.

[HoopsNY]

Well, drexler played in the soft 90s and you guys already know what that means.

Haha, yep. Butler is old school. But the assumption is that Clyde was Allan Houston on the defensive end. He wasn't. Houston was mediocre defensively whereas Clyde was actually good.

[dankok8]

Obviously Drexler... what is the argument for Butler?

[HoopsNY]

Obviously Drexler... what is the argument for Butler?

His defense. It's a worthy argument, but it's largely based on a combination of things and without context:

1- That Clyde was a mediocre defender, let alone a terrible one.

But Clyde played in an era with guards like Payton, Jordan, Dumars, Richmond, Robertson, Harper, Stockton, Cooper, Blaylock, etc. Butler has had competition like George, Paul, Simmons, and Klay?

2- That his finals performance is better than anything Clyde could ever do.

Butler's performance was notable, but you have to consider the bubble and the circumstances regarding Covid. Not to mention, Clyde's performance in the 1990 finals was remarkable against an all-time great defense. I mean, who was guarding Butler and look what happened when AD guarded him. The Pistons threw the whole team at Clyde and he dominated.

[dankok8]

His defense. It's a worthy argument, but it's largely based on a combination of things and without context:

1- That Clyde was a mediocre defender, let alone a terrible one.

But Clyde played in an era with guards like Payton, Jordan, Dumars, Richmond, Robertson, Harper, Stockton, Cooper, Blaylock, etc. Butler has had competition like George, Paul, Simmons, and Klay?

2- That his finals performance is better than anything Clyde could ever do.

Butler's performance was notable, but you have to consider the bubble and the circumstances regarding Covid. Not to mention, Clyde's performance in the 1990 finals was remarkable against an all-time great defense. I mean, who was guarding Butler and look what happened when AD guarded him. The Pistons threw the whole team at Clyde and he dominated.

You make good points. Using one series as an argument is dumb as hell and then the 2020 Finals was played at a higher pace in a very offensive minded league. The 1990 Finals which was Drexler's best was played at a slower pace against the Bad Boy Pistons!

Per 75 possessions:

1990 Finals - Drexler: 24.8 ppg, 7.3 rpg (2.4 o), 5.8 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.2 bpg on 59.8 %TS (+6.1 rTS) with 3.2 topg

2020 Finals - Butler: 23.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg (2.2 o), 8.8 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.7 bpg on 65.8 %TS (+9.3 rTS) with 2.7 topg

By the way Clyde was a very good defender. Not Dumars/MJ level but still really good. Any possible edge for Butler on defense doesn't overcome the fact that Clyde was at last one whole tier better offensively.

[1987_Lakers]

You make good points. Using one series as an argument is dumb as hell and then the 2020 Finals was played at a higher pace in a very offensive minded league. The 1990 Finals which was Drexler's best was played at a slower pace against the Bad Boy Pistons!

Per 75 possessions:

1990 Finals - Drexler: 24.8 ppg, 7.3 rpg (2.4 o), 5.8 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.2 bpg on 59.8 %TS (+6.1 rTS) with 3.2 topg

2020 Finals - Butler: 23.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg (2.2 o), 8.8 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.7 bpg on 65.8 %TS (+9.3 rTS) with 2.7 topg

By the way Clyde was a very good defender. Not Dumars/MJ level but still really good. Any possible edge for Butler on defense doesn't overcome the fact that Clyde was at last one whole tier better offensively.

Clyde was a positive defender, good help defender, average to below average man defender at times, Drexler wasn't really known for his defense. And saying Drexler is a tier better offensively than Butler is dishonest in my opinion, Drexler was very limited as a half court scorer, couldn't score in ISO cause he lacked ball-handling skills & wasn't really known for his shooting. Clyde might be better offensively because he is a bigger threat in the transition game, but I wouldn't call him a tier better offensively.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHg0AkZ4u-4

Take a look at his 48 points vs the Knicks, notice how most of his points come in transition.

[Thenameless]

Drexler is one of those past players whos stock has dropped considerably as the years have gone by. When I first joined ISH, he was mostly considered a top 5 SG ever, now he is rarely talked about, not as highly regarded, some don't even have him in their top 50 list.

He benefited with playing on a Portland team that ran like crazy, most of his points came in transition, not really a great half court scorer, good passer, but a "meh" defender. He also would be considered a below average ball handler & shooter if he played today. He had many flaws in his game. He still probably ranks ahead of Butler all-time just because he has more individual accolades, but the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that I'd rather have Butler on my team.

I agree. Drexler was a beauty watch, being "Clyde the Glide" and all that, but he doesn't have the grit of Butler. Butler is a really scrappy player and it's an intangible that's lacking in Drexler.

[Replay32]

Clyde Drexler

[TheCorporation]

Drexler was the better offensive player, Butler was the better defender and more versatile. It's hard to say but they are close either way. What's interesting about this is that Drexler was often regarded as the second best SG in MJ's era but in this era I don't even know if Butler cracks the top 10 SG/SFs in the league. What a time.

These 6 LeBron, Kawhi, Paul George, Kyrie, Harden, Beal are a lock

These 5 are in the mix Booker, Lavine, Jaylen Brown, Tatum, Middleton

[dankok8]

Clyde was a positive defender, good help defender, average to below average man defender at times, Drexler wasn't really known for his defense. And saying Drexler is a tier better offensively than Butler is dishonest in my opinion, Drexler was very limited as a half court scorer, couldn't score in ISO cause he lacked ball-handling skills & wasn't really known for his shooting. Clyde might be better offensively because he is a bigger threat in the transition game, but I wouldn't call him a tier better offensively.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHg0AkZ4u-4

Take a look at his 48 points vs the Knicks, notice how most of his points come in transition.

Lacked ball handling? What are you talking about? Drexler could and did practically play as a point guard at times. He had much better court vision and ball handling than Jimmy. He had a quicker first step, better finisher at the rim, and a better midrange shot as well. And of course he was as you said an absolute beast in transition. Butler has a better post game and that's about it. Drexler being limited as a half court scorer has to be one of the worst takes I've ever seen. Taking and comparing their playoffs stats at their best...

2015-2020 Butler: 21.3 ppg, 6.3 rpg (1.8 o), 4.9 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.6 bpg on 57.8 %TS (+2.7 rTS) with 2.2 topg
1987-1992 Drexler: 23.4 ppg, 7.4 rpg (3.0 o), 7.1 apg, 2.1 spg, 0.9 bpg on 53.1 %TS (-0.5 rTS) with 3.1 topg

Being a bit more efficient but Butler is trailing heavily in all volume offensive metrics...

Defensively I'd give Butler an edge but Clyde was a very good defender. And generally as a player Drexler was so fundamentally sound and had a smart approach to the game. He just knew how to win and made every single team he was ever with better.

Drexler also has more longevity, more All-NBA selections (three 1st and 2st Teams compared to zero for Butler), and of course a championship. Before you say he was carried by Hakeem, realize that Drexler was fantastic in the 1995 playoffs. He also led teams to two NBA finals in 1990 and 1992 as the man.

[HoopsNY]

Clyde was a positive defender, good help defender, average to below average man defender at times, Drexler wasn't really known for his defense. And saying Drexler is a tier better offensively than Butler is dishonest in my opinion, Drexler was very limited as a half court scorer, couldn't score in ISO cause he lacked ball-handling skills & wasn't really known for his shooting. Clyde might be better offensively because he is a bigger threat in the transition game, but I wouldn't call him a tier better offensively.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHg0AkZ4u-4

Take a look at his 48 points vs the Knicks, notice how most of his points come in transition.

Did you forget that Drexler was an excellent playmaker? How does that come with poor ball handling skills?

[TheCorporation]

Did you forget that Drexler was an excellent playmaker? How does that come with poor ball handling skills?

"Drexler is actually a really weird player.


He does not like to dribble or finish with his left. He can dunk with his left hand though.

He drives with his head down half the time.

His outside shot is incredibly suspect."

He was merely thriving in a primitive era.

[1987_Lakers]

Lacked ball handling? What are you talking about? Drexler could and did practically play as a point guard at times. He had much better court vision and ball handling than Jimmy. He had a quicker first step, better finisher at the rim, and a better midrange shot as well. And of course he was as you said an absolute beast in transition. Butler has a better post game and that's about it. Drexler being limited as a half court scorer has to be one of the worst takes I've ever seen. Taking and comparing their playoffs stats at their best...

2015-2020 Butler: 21.3 ppg, 6.3 rpg (1.8 o), 4.9 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.6 bpg on 57.8 %TS (+2.7 rTS) with 2.2 topg
1987-1992 Drexler: 23.4 ppg, 7.4 rpg (3.0 o), 7.1 apg, 2.1 spg, 0.9 bpg on 53.1 %TS (-0.5 rTS) with 3.1 topg

Being a bit more efficient but Butler is trailing heavily in all volume offensive metrics...

Defensively I'd give Butler an edge but Clyde was a very good defender. And generally as a player Drexler was so fundamentally sound and had a smart approach to the game. He just knew how to win and made every single team he was ever with better.

Drexler also has more longevity, more All-NBA selections (three 1st and 2st Teams compared to zero for Butler), and of course a championship. Before you say he was carried by Hakeem, realize that Drexler was fantastic in the 1995 playoffs. He also led teams to two NBA finals in 1990 and 1992 as the man.

You would be a fool to put Clyde Drexler as your primary point guard, he was in fact regarded as an average ball handler back then, in today's league he would be below average. You compare his handles to guys like MJ, Kobe, or T-Mac then he is a tier below them, those guys used their handles to create their own shots, Drexler couldn't do that. He had two playoff runs at his peak in 1990 & 1991 where he only averaged 21-22 ppg, not exactly elite scoring, and that was with playing on a very paced Blazers team who loved to run.

[1987_Lakers]

Did you forget that Drexler was an excellent playmaker? How does that come with poor ball handling skills?

It's not just me old man, just watch the tape. Many people have the same opinion as me on Drexler when it comes to his lack of ball handling and half court game.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1297807&start=15

"clearly you're just looking at stats without taking context into consideration. I feel like that has to be done with Drexler if anybody, because he could fill up the stat sheet very easily but not necessarily come through when it mattered. Drexler was possibly the greatest transition player of all-time. he used to have 30+ pt games on fastbreaks alone. but he was quite bad in the HCO for a superstar. he wasn't even the best HCO player on those Portland teams (that would be Terry Porter by far). Drexler had many flaws in the HCO. he was a mediocre ballhandler. he didn't really have outside game because of that inconsistent jumpshot. he played extremely well off the ball and was a very underrated passer, but his limited scoring/shooting skills made him kinda useless as a guy you would run your offense through in the postseason. his points came from putbacks, backcuts, transition, getting to the line.

for example, he was nowhere near Penny Hardaway in terms of HCO. I know people will point out to his numbers in the '95 finals, but Drexler was scoring tons of points in transition because of how many turnovers Horry and Olajuwon forced on the Magic. he also had it easy in the HCO because of how much attention Hakeem demanded in the post, so that Drexler could just finish. there were also times when Hakeem was standing on the weak side with Shaq covering him, and Drexler just abused Magic on mismatches while driving/posting up. so Drexler was a great guy to play 2nd fiddle because he could get a lot of points without running a ton of plays through him, but at the same time you had to remember that running plays through him is not exactly what you would wanna do to begin with. he could post-up smaller guards, he could drive by weaker defenders, he could abuse you when given space to get inside, but he wasn't a guy who could create something out of nothing a la Kobe Bryant or even somebody like Brandon Roy."

With that said, I'm already on record as saying Drexler is and should be ranked ahead of Butler All-time, but I'd rather have Butler on my team.

[2much_knowledge]

As always. Lets put the bias goggles on and prop up whoever is around lebron's timeline.

Drexler has 7 seasond with 2+ steals per game. Butler has 2
Drexler has 5 seasons with better ppg than Jimmy's best scoring season.
Drexler has been both all nba 1st and 2nd team. Jimmy could only reach 3rd team

Drexler has 12 seasons with 5+ assist per game. Jimmy has 2 lol

This ain't even a contest. I know some of you look for a 100 different ways to prop lebron and his era but just no

[2much_knowledge]

It's recency bias. Butler gets overly praised for a finals that had everyone lighting it up. If Clyde is in that situation, he's going for 30/10/10 on 60% shooting.

Not to mention, when has Butler had the durability that Clyde had? Butler has played 11 seasons, he has been significantly injured in all of them with the exception of 2 seasons. In Clyde's first 9 seasons, he played in at least 73 games in every one of them.

The two are not close, but Bran stans have an agenda. The more stars they can diminish from the 80s and 90s, the more they can prop up their boy toy Bran.

And don't think that they have any respect for Butler. But because Butler did what he did against LAL, it suddenly means something. All these points are interconnected.

Give it time, they will also try to diminish Dominique, Shaq, Hakeem, etc. All it will take is a player of similar style and statistical output for them to then say, "those guys were trash...look at what this guy did!"

This and nothing more to it. Any allstar around lebron's timeline automatically will be better. Thats it

[Axe]

As always. Lets put the bias goggles on and prop up whoever is around lebron's timeline.

Drexler has 7 seasond with 2+ steals per game. Butler has 2
Drexler has 5 seasons with better ppg than Jimmy's best scoring season.
Drexler has been both all nba 1st and 2nd team. Jimmy could only reach 3rd team

Drexler has 12 seasons with 5+ assist per game. Jimmy has 2 lol

This ain't even a contest. I know some of you look for a 100 different ways to prop lebron and his era but just no
90s were a light and soft era

[miggyme1]

Anybody taking jimmy over clyde is a ****ing clown. Clyde was jimmy with more athleticism. Got to the NBA finals 3 times,twice as the main guy and lost to jordan and isiah thomas....two hall of famers with hall of fame coaches. Kids have ruined this site.....jimmy better than clyde?? And i like jimmy but he is the definition of an “OVERACHIEVER”, nothing wrong with that but he isnt half the athlete clyde was or raw talent. Cut it out.

[2much_knowledge]

90s were a light and soft era

I.s.h in a nutshell. Fire pure facts, get countered with mere opinions

[PeroAntic]

Anybody taking jimmy over clyde is a ****ing clown. Clyde was jimmy with more athleticism. Got to the NBA finals 3 times,twice as the main guy and lost to jordan and isiah thomas....two hall of famers with hall of fame coaches. Kids have ruined this site.....jimmy better than clyde?? And i like jimmy but he is the definition of an “OVERACHIEVER”, nothing wrong with that but he isnt half the athlete clyde was or raw talent. Cut it out.
Actually Jimmy has been one of the most underrated players in the league for years now. Last year people finally noticed him, but before he turned the Wolves around in one season and became the Sixers' best player in the company of Embiid and Simmons. PPG and all team selections matter little when evaluating his ability. Its like 3ball saying Pippen sucks because he maxed at 21 ppg. All NBA is also irrelevant when you see the competition today compared to then. Jimmy is Kawhi lite, can do pretty much everything on the court at the highest level. Absolutely a more complete player than Draxler, and this comes from someone with zero agenda about Lebron.

[miggyme1]

Actually Jimmy has been one of the most underrated players in the league for years now. Last year people finally noticed him, but before he turned the Wolves around in one season and became the Sixers' best player in the company of Embiid and Simmons. PPG and all team selections matter little when evaluating his ability. Its like 3ball saying Pippen sucks because he maxed at 21 ppg. All NBA is also irrelevant when you see the competition today compared to then. Jimmy is Kawhi lite, can do pretty much everything on the court at the highest level. Absolutely a more complete player than Draxler, and this comes from someone with zero agenda about Lebron.

I didnt call jimmy overrated....i called him an overachiever. Big difference.

[2much_knowledge]

Actually Jimmy has been one of the most underrated players in the league for years now. Last year people finally noticed him, but before he turned the Wolves around in one season and became the Sixers' best player in the company of Embiid and Simmons. PPG and all team selections matter little when evaluating his ability. Its like 3ball saying Pippen sucks because he maxed at 21 ppg. All NBA is also irrelevant when you see the competition today compared to then. Jimmy is Kawhi lite, can do pretty much everything on the court at the highest level. Absolutely a more complete player than Draxler, and this comes from someone with zero agenda about Lebron.

If butler was more "complete" why Drexler has a landslide in the assists and steals department? Jimmy has not averaged more blocks or rebounds than drexler in any of his seasons. Not even gonna bother talking about scoring.

But Jimmy's bread and butter is defense and drexler leads in steals, blocks and rebounds. Doesn't add up

This is no disrespect on jimmy, great player with a lot heart and character but he ain't no drexler

[PeroAntic]

If butler was more "complete" why Drexler has a landslide in the assists and steals department? Jimmy has not averaged more blocks or rebounds than drexler in any of his seasons. Not even gonna bother talking about scoring.

But Jimmy's bread and butter is defense and drexler leads in steals, blocks and rebounds. Doesn't add up

This is no disrespect on jimmy, great player with a lot heart and character but he ain't no drexler

Drexler is more athletic, hence the rebounds. But steals are not by any means a measure of how good one's defence is. As for assists, players can rack them up by handling the rock more Rondo style. Doesnt mean its good for the team, Jimmy plays within the team game and involves everyone. Stats don't tell the whole picture.

[ArbitraryWater]

Drexler doesn't even hold a candle to Jimmy's handling and smooth scoring game... relied on his athleticism far more.

Jimmy is much more reliable in late go-to situations.

[PeroAntic]

I didnt call jimmy overrated....i called him an overachiever. Big difference.

Its essentially the same.. means hes worse than he appears to be. I'd say hes an underachiever because he was a championship level player wherever he was since he hit his prime, unfortunately he lost to the Raptors by Kawhi's miracle shot, and in Minnesota he was stuck with losers KAT and Wiggins and still managed to make that team a juggernaut before getting injured. Only last year we finally saw how good he's always been (since hitting his prime circa 2016).

[2much_knowledge]

Drexler is more athletic, hence the rebounds. But steals are not by any means a measure of how good one's defence is. As for assists, players can rack them up by handling the rock more Rondo style. Doesnt mean its good for the team, Jimmy plays within the team game and involves everyone. Stats don't tell the whole picture.

But team success does. And a player who went to the finals twice with Porter and Duckworth should be factored in when Jimmy played with Embid and Simmons and got bounced early

[PeroAntic]

But team success does. And a player who went to the finals twice with Porter and Duckworth should be factored in when Jimmy played with Embid and Simmons and got bounced early

Bounced by the eventual winner led by one of the GOATs, by virtue of a single point with a miraculous shot. Context matters.

[ArbitraryWater]

But team success does. And a player who went to the finals twice with Porter and Duckworth should be factored in when Jimmy played with Embid and Simmons and got bounced early

he didnt overachieve lol

[miggyme1]

Its essentially the same.. means hes worse than he appears to be. I'd say hes an underachiever because he was a championship level player wherever he was since he hit his prime, unfortunately he lost to the Raptors by Kawhi's miracle shot, and in Minnesota he was stuck with losers KAT and Wiggins and still managed to make that team a juggernaut before getting injured. Only last year we finally saw how good he's always been (since hitting his prime circa 2016).

Please look up the definitions of both words or continue to look like an idiot. Both words have two totally different meanings.

[ArbitraryWater]

Please look up the definitions of both words or continue to look like an idiot. Both words have two totally different meanings.

Since you used over-achieving as a negative, it‘s the same, you mouth breathing moron.

Just another way of saying he‘s not as good as he seems.


If you truly think its not something negative, then you‘re even dumber for using it as reason against Jimmy.

Pick your poison.

[8Ball]

Jimmy Butler was a better player for sure.

[TheCorporation]

Jimmy Butler was a better player for sure.

Imagine LBJ's weakest #1 option in the Finals is still better than MJ's toughest. That would be like having the 2020 Lakers play the Butler/Bam/Dragic Heat every Finals for 6 years. Yikes.

[8Ball]

Imagine LBJ's weakest #1 option in the Finals is still better than MJ's toughest. That would be like having the 2020 Lakers play the Butler/Bam/Dragic Heat every Finals for 6 years. Yikes.

That is what I keep saying.

Jordan's 6 rings are nice but there was no other super team in the 90s. There was only 1 stacked team in the entire league! Not even a 2021 Clippers team to challenge Jordan.

[Xiao Yao You]

But team success does. And a player who went to the finals twice with Porter and Duckworth should be factored in when Jimmy played with Embid and Simmons and got bounced early

Porter was a great player :facepalm

[The Closer]

Butler but it's close

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Imagine LBJ's weakest #1 option in the Finals is still better than MJ's toughest. That would be like having the 2020 Lakers play the Butler/Bam/Dragic Heat every Finals for 6 years. Yikes.

Since when was Drexler better than Magic, Barkley and Malone? For the amount of time you spend on this topic, you're still clueless :lol

[TheCorporation]

That is what I keep saying.

Jordan's 6 rings are nice but there was no other super team in the 90s. There was only 1 stacked team in the entire league! Not even a 2021 Clippers team to challenge Jordan.

Fair analysis. And to your point Jordan never had any competition because he always had Scottie to prop him up. He also doesn't have any rings as good as LeBron's 4th best and we all like to value the quality of a ring over the quantity. Case in point:

KD's weak rings
Dirks' herculean ring
LBJ's GOAT ring
MJ's weak rings

[TheCorporation]

Since when was Drexler better than Magic, Barkley and Malone? For the amount of time you spend on this topic, you're still clueless :lol

-Magic had AIDS in 1991 and retired
-Barkley could be argued as his best, but he was a fat, undersized, underachiever. *Slow golf clap for Mikey I guess*
-Malone could be argued as well, but we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point

Compared to: Duncan. Parker. Durant. Westbrook. Harden. Kawhi. Curry. Klay. Butler.

Sorry, I think one list is much, much more impressive. Don't you?

[Kblaze8855]

Someone was so offended(on Drexlers behalf) by this being asked they reported the whole topic. Just thought I’d mention that.

[1987_Lakers]

Someone was so offended(on Drexlers behalf) by this being asked they reported the whole topic. Just thought I’d mention that.

:oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

My only thoughts are the same as when I first made this.....



https://youtu.be/2MkPZWiPitA


Which is that he’s probably better than you think he was but I found him overrated at the time.

[TheCorporation]

Someone was so offended(on Drexlers behalf) by this being asked they reported the whole topic. Just thought I’d mention that.

:lol I wonder who that could be


My only thoughts are the same as when I first made this.....



https://youtu.be/2MkPZWiPitA


Which is that he’s probably better than you think he was but I found him overrated at the time.

Nice video, thanks for sharing.

[8Ball]

My only thoughts are the same as when I first made this.....

Which is that he’s probably better than you think he was but I found him overrated at the time.

Isn't that how we feel about Jimmy Butler?

Better than we think but overrated?

[8Ball]

Fair analysis. And to your point Jordan never had any competition because he always had Scottie to prop him up. He also doesn't have any rings as good as LeBron's 4th best and we all like to value the quality of a ring over the quantity. Case in point:

KD's weak rings
Dirks' herculean ring
LBJ's GOAT ring
MJ's weak rings

If Jordan won 6 rings in the 80s or 6 rings in the 2000s or 2010s I would have nothing to say.

[TheCorporation]

If Jordan won 6 rings in the 80s or 6 rings in the 2000s or 2010s I would have nothing to say.

Fair analysis. Russell's rings are the weakest era, but the 90s isn't too far behind.


Russell's 11 is probably the equivalent to MJ's 6.

And LBJ's 4 modern era FMVP is the GOAT standard. Zone became legal in 2002 so from 2002 to present is the modern era

Kawhi has 2
KD has 2
LBJ has 4
I guess we can say Russell and MJ's equivalent using an exchange rate might be 2 or 3? :confusedshrug:

Luka or Zion could catch LBJ but for now the GOAT standard is 4 FMVPs in the legal zone era.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

-Magic had AIDS in 1991 and retired
-Barkley could be argued as his best, but he was a fat, undersized, underachiever. *Slow golf clap for Mikey I guess*
-Malone could be argued as well, but we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel at this point

Compared to: Duncan. Parker. Durant. Westbrook. Harden. Kawhi. Curry. Klay. Butler.

Sorry, I think one list is much, much more impressive. Don't you?

Barkley was a short and fat golfer. Prime Magic had aids. And Karl Malone is equivalent to scraps from the bottom of a barrel.

Damn quality analysis dude. Looks like you put a lot of thought into this.

[tpols]

Drexler is one of those past players whos stock has dropped considerably as the years have gone by. When I first joined ISH, he was mostly considered a top 5 SG ever, now he is rarely talked about, not as highly regarded, some don't even have him in their top 50 list.

He benefited with playing on a Portland team that ran like crazy, most of his points came in transition, not really a great half court scorer, good passer, but a "meh" defender. He also would be considered a below average ball handler & shooter if he played today. He had many flaws in his game. He still probably ranks ahead of Butler all-time just because he has more individual accolades, but the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that I'd rather have Butler on my team.

He put up a dominant playoff run in 1995 on the Rockets. Clyde is extremely underrated.

[1987_Lakers]

He put up a dominant playoff run in 1995 on the Rockets. Clyde is extremely underrated.

A 21 ppg playoff run is dominant? Damn you have low standards

[tpols]

A 21 ppg playoff run is dominant? Damn you have low standards

On elite efficiency with supreme clutch play? Yeah. You said he only produced with Portland's "fast paced" system. That's a lie. I do believe jimmy butler is a great player and on his level but the way you diminished Clyde needs to be called out. I myself could take you in the post and show you personally just how low my standards are punk.

[1987_Lakers]

On elite efficiency with supreme clutch play? Yeah. You said he only produced with Portland's "fast paced" system. That's a lie. I do believe jimmy butler is a great player and on his level but the way you diminished Clyde needs to be called out. I myself could take you in the post and show you personally just how low my standards are punk.

All I've stated is facts. I bet you anything that the only reason why you called his '95 postseason run dominant is because of your weird obsession with offensive rating.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not seeing the 'not close' argument, either.

Like I mentioned earlier, only way that's true is with all-time status. Jimmy's best vs Glide's is close enough to where you start thinking about the teams makeup. Depending on who you surround both with, there are a few simulations I'd take Butler in. His half-court game and defense should not be overlooked, especially when debating postseason play.

[insight]

Jimmy Butler won't even sniff the hall of fame, not to mention being a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. It's sad a lot of you 't tell the difference between a generational Hooper and a good player from the current era.

[2much_knowledge]

Brontards always talking about high assists numbers being so important but since Clyde played in the 90s, 12 seasons of at least 5 assist or more ain't that important anymoe

[insight]

Not seeing the 'not close' argument, either.

Like I mentioned earlier, only way that's true is with all-time status. Jimmy's best vs Glide's is close enough to where you start thinking about the teams makeup. Depending on who you surround both with, there are a few simulations I'd take Butler in. His half-court game and defense should not be overlooked, especially when debating postseason play.

This is ridiculous, as somebody mentioned Jimmy is an overachiever, he has never been considered an elite baller. He fought his way to play at Marquette, he was barely a 1st round pick. He has been in the league 10 years and only made it to the finals during the middle of a pandemic and 4 months later he teams struggled to avoid the play in game.
Clyde Drexler went to 3 NCAA final fours, on one of the most dominant college teams in college history. He was a lottery pick, who was a key player on an NBA championship team. He played on the best team ever assembled the 92 Dream Team, 5 time All NBA, 10 time All Star, and named one of the 50th greatest players of all time.
You have all these resources like youtube with videos, player commentary, coaches commentary to learn about the legends of the game. Jimmy Butler is a poor man's James Worthy skill wise, who has not been a serious playoff contender the majority of his career. He has a great finals run last year, but you guys our overhyping his value big time.

[PeroAntic]

Butler is not an 'overachiever', hes simply a late bloomer that didn't get enough recognition in the previous years. What is it that he can't do on an elite level? Except threes which is strange given that pre-Miami he was great at that too.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This is ridiculous, as somebody mentioned Jimmy is an overachiever, he has never been considered an elite baller. He fought his way to play at Marquette, he was barely a 1st round pick. He has been in the league 10 years and only made it to the finals during the middle of a pandemic and 4 months later he teams struggled to avoid the play in game.
Clyde Drexler went to 3 NCAA final fours, on one of the most dominant college teams in college history. He was a lottery pick, who was a key player on an NBA championship team. He played on the best team ever assembled the 92 Dream Team, 5 time All NBA, 10 time All Star, and named one of the 50th greatest players of all time.
You have all these resources like youtube with videos, player commentary, coaches commentary to learn about the legends of the game. Jimmy Butler is a poor man's James Worthy skill wise, who has not been a serious playoff contender the majority of his career. He has a great finals run last year, but you guys our overhyping his value big time.

Do you understand what peak play is? You're going on about Drexler's lifetime achievements. Again, I agree that Drexler had a better career.

Peak vs peak is close though. And when defense is accounted for, Jimmy's had 2-3 playoff runs on the level of Drexler's best. Without a doubt.

[ArbitraryWater]

A 21 ppg playoff run is dominant? Damn you have low standards

my man said dominant lol

[insight]

Do you understand what peak play is? You're going on about Drexler's lifetime achievements. Again, I agree that Drexler had a better career.

Peak vs peak is close though. And when defense is accounted for, Jimmy's had 2-3 playoff runs on the level of Drexler's best. Without a doubt.

In Clyde Drexler's peak people were actually saying he was better than Michael Jordan. Think about that! During Clyde's peak he propelled the Trailblazers to a 63 win year, last year Miami was 5th with 44 wins, in fact Jimmy Butler has only played over 63 games in a season 5 out of 10 seasons. Peak Butler is a dark horse pick, not a NBA championship favorite like Lebron and Kawhi and Giannis.

[TheCorporation]

Do you understand what peak play is? You're going on about Drexler's lifetime achievements. Again, I agree that Drexler had a better career.

Peak vs peak is close though. And when defense is accounted for, Jimmy's had 2-3 playoff runs on the level of Drexler's best. Without a doubt.

Agreed. Butler came close to winning a ring with Bam and Tyler Herro.

Are we trying to say he wouldn't win one with Hakeem and Robert Horry?

[L.Kizzle]

He was the 2nd best player on the court for a lot of those series, not just in a Rockets jersey.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

In Clyde Drexler's peak people were actually saying he was better than Michael Jordan. Think about that! During Clyde's peak he propelled the Trailblazers to a 63 win year, last year Miami was 5th with 44 wins, in fact Jimmy Butler has only played over 63 games in a season 5 out of 10 seasons. Peak Butler is a dark horse pick, not a NBA championship favorite like Lebron and Kawhi and Giannis.

In the finals, MJ made sure there was never a comparison. And outplayed Drexler by a massive margin.

You talk about a regular-season percentage, well, Butler also had a finals better than any of Drexler's. Could Glide play LeBron close? I doubt it, but either way it compels the 'peak' debate.

[insight]

In the finals, MJ made sure there was never a comparison. And outplayed Drexler by a massive margin.

You talk about a regular-season percentage, well, Butler also had a finals better than any of Drexler's. Could Glide play LeBron close? I doubt it, but either way it compels the 'peak' debate.

Context matters, we were in the middle of a pandemic, and did not even complete a full season when players were asked to live in a facility in Orlando FL for 6 weeks without fans. This so called peak of Jimmy Butler was an anomaly just like the amount of players who had 50 point games in the bubble.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Context matters, we were in the middle of a pandemic, and did not even complete a full season when players were asked to live in a facility in Orlando FL for 6 weeks without fans. This so called peak of Jimmy Butler was an anomaly just like the amount of players who had 50 point games in the bubble.

I agree with a lot of this, but you just posted their regular-season record. From last year. Miami turned it up in the playoffs and made there mark there.

That wasn't Butler's only good postseason run either. He was really good in 2015 and 2019 too. Again if we're not ignoring defense, he and Drexler had similar impact.

[PeroAntic]

This so called peak of Jimmy Butler was an anomaly just like the amount of players who had 50 point games in the bubble.

An anomaly is that he didnt win a ring so far in his career. But if even without that hes considered one of the biggest 'winners' in the league, it tells you everything you need to know.

[insight]

Agreed. Butler came close to winning a ring with Bam and Tyler Herro.

Are we trying to say he wouldn't win one with Hakeem and Robert Horry?

He wouldn't even be on the court. Butler is has only played a full season once, he is not even playing tonight when Miami is fighting for playoff seeding.

[tanibanana]

MJ’s best opponent was either Malone or Barkley. Drexler is only Third behind those two guys.
But being Malone the greater player, then we could say its Malone, Barkley, Drexler.

[Bronbron23]

I agree with a lot of this, but you just posted their regular-season record. From last year. Miami turned it up in the playoffs and made there mark there.

That wasn't Butler's only good postseason run either. He was really good in 2015 and 2019 too. Again if we're not ignoring defense, he and Drexler had similar impact.

Wouldn't really argue the impact point. The problem is it's never really used when comparing players. We always use chips stats and accolades and clyde is better in all 3 areas. Shit bird, shaq, duncan and kobe have similar impact as bron at certain parts of their career but his stans don't put them anywhere near bron because of his better stats and achievements. Same should apply here.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wouldn't really argue the impact point. The problem is it's never really used when comparing players. We always use chips stats and accolades and clyde is better in all 3 areas. Shit bird, shaq, duncan and kobe have similar imp/act as bron at certain parts of their career but his stans don't put them anywhere near bron because of his better stats and achievements. Same should apply here.

Don't know about that. To me, aside from the eye test, impact trumps everything.

Clyde has a sidekick ring and more accolades amassed throughout his career. Which again, was clearly better than Jimmy's. But that doesn't tell me who the better peak player is.

Its hard to contextualize numbers from last years bubble. But a finals where Jimmy played LeBron close is a big deal. People might disagree, and that's fine, because Jimmy's also had multiple playoff runs where he was really good.

Bron 'stans' are irrelevant. They'll argue whatever is convenient at the time :lol Wouldn't put much stock into what they say.

[RRR3]

He wouldn't even be on the court. Butler is has only played a full season once, he is not even playing tonight when Miami is fighting for playoff seeding.
That’s because Spo is braindead, nothing else.

[dankok8]

You would be a fool to put Clyde Drexler as your primary point guard, he was in fact regarded as an average ball handler back then, in today's league he would be below average. You compare his handles to guys like MJ, Kobe, or T-Mac then he is a tier below them, those guys used their handles to create their own shots, Drexler couldn't do that. He had two playoff runs at his peak in 1990 & 1991 where he only averaged 21-22 ppg, not exactly elite scoring, and that was with playing on a very paced Blazers team who loved to run.

MJ and Kobe are two of the greatest ever ball handlers especially for guys 6'6'' tall so your point is moot. Ball handling isn't fancy crossovers. Drexler was a really good ballhandler who boasted an excellent assist to turnover ratio (2.3 to 1) despite making plenty of high leverage passes. Clyde did way more than Butler from a team and individual perspective.

You mention Drexler > Butler but you'd rather take Butler. Who's the real fool here? You'll take a guy who's the worse basketball player...

[1987_Lakers]

MJ and Kobe are two of the greatest ever ball handlers especially for guys 6'6'' tall so your point is moot. Ball handling isn't fancy crossovers. Drexler was a really good ballhandler who boasted an excellent assist to turnover ratio (2.3 to 1) despite making plenty of high leverage passes. Clyde did way more than Butler from a team and individual perspective.

You mention Drexler > Butler but you'd rather take Butler. Who's the real fool here? You'll take a guy who's the worse basketball player...

If you read my first post, you would see that I would rank Drexler ahead of Butler because he has the individual accolades, this is more of a peak discussion,. For me personally, I'm not a big fan of Drexler's shooting ability, ball handling, & lack of half court scoring. Butler brings me better defense, with similar offensive impact & has that alpha in him. Of course, I wouldn't want either player as my best player if I was building a championship team.

Iverson & Westbrook individually rank pretty high all-time, but would you want them on your team? Maybe if you have a weak roster, but I'm not having them if I already have the pieces to win it all. Nothing foolish about not wanting great players who won't fit the team or era. Would you replace Klay with Iverson on the 2017 Warriors? No, they become a worse team.

[mehyaM24]

drexler was better, but i get why some pick butler. his mental toughness is on another level. and to be honest, i dont see butler being rattled like drexler was in the 92 finals. or later in barcelona. apparently jordan owned him so hard in practice, clyde came into a shootaround with his shoes on the opposite foot :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

drexler was better, but i can see why some pick butler. his mental toughness is on another level. and to be honest, i dont see him being rattled like drexler was in the 92 finals. or later in barcelona. apparently jordan owned him so hard in practice, clyde came into a shootaround with each shoe on the opposite foot :oldlol:

It's funny how hard it is for people to accept that, people in this thread are legit mad at people choosing Butler, kblaze who called Drexler overrated even dropped by and said a poster reported this thread because they thought it was disrespectful to Drexler. The MJ stans are shook.

[mehyaM24]

It's funny how hard it is for people to accept that, people in this thread are legit mad at people choosing Butler, kblaze who called Drexler overrated even dropped by and said a poster reported this thread because they thought it was disrespectful to Drexler. The MJ stans are shook.

weird thing to report. we're just talking hoops lol. not sure why mj stans are "shook" anyway. there are plenty of legends to hang their hat on. sure drexler was good, but there were better players then.

[Reggie43]

Drexler was better and one of the things that make it close is that Jimmy has the advantage of boosted stats because of the modern offense friendly rules. Drexler in todays era would have had a few 29-30ppg seasons and with better numbers across the board how would he compare then?

[BigShotBob]

Drexler was better and one of the things that make it close is that Jimmy has the advantage of boosted stats because of the modern offense friendly rules. Drexler in todays era would have had a few 29-30ppg seasons and with better numbers across the board how would he compare then?

No one wants to bring up this unfortunate truth.

[1987_Lakers]

Drexler was better and one of the things that make it close is that Jimmy has the advantage of boosted stats because of the modern offense friendly rules. Drexler in todays era would have had a few 29-30ppg seasons and with better numbers across the board how would he compare then?

The '88-'90 Blazers played at a 102-104 pace, the average pace teams play at today is 99. Clyde was in his prime in an era where defense was non existent. Clyde played on a team that played extremely fast paced and managed to have two playoff runs at his peak where he only averaged 21-22 ppg. Sorry try again.

[RRR3]

The '88-'90 Blazers played at a 102-104 pace, the average pace teams play at today is 99. Clyde was in his prime in an era where defense was non existent. Clyde played on a team that played extremely fast paced and managed to have two playoff runs at his peak where he only averaged 21-22 ppg. Sorry try again.
So tired of these MJ myths lmao

[BigShotBob]

The '88-'90 Blazers played at a 102-104 pace, the average pace teams play at today is 99. Clyde was in his prime in an era where defense was non existent. Clyde played on a team that played extremely fast paced and managed to have two playoff runs at his peak where he only averaged 21-22 ppg. Sorry try again.

Absolutely asinine comment devoid of any and all context. Jimmy Butler plays in the freedom of movement era. Clyde did not. This pace statistic nonsense doesn't tell the whole story, and you already know that.

[RRR3]

Absolutely asinine comment devoid of any and all context. Jimmy Butler plays in the freedom of movement era. Clyde did not. This pace statistic nonsense doesn't tell the whole story, and you already know that.
Yeah because Butler is such a 3pt shooter lmao. That’s who the rule was made to benefit. No one cares about your Mikey myths.

[1987_Lakers]

Absolutely asinine comment devoid of any and all context. Jimmy Butler plays in the freedom of movement era. Clyde did not. This pace statistic nonsense doesn't tell the whole story, and you already know that.

And Clyde played in an era that played no transition defense whatsoever, and guess what? He thrived in transition, that was his biggest strength.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHg0AkZ4u-4&t=

Look at this vid, I've never seen such shitty transition defense in my life. That wouldn't slide in today's league.

[Reggie43]

The '88-'90 Blazers played at a 102-104 pace, the average pace teams play at today is 99. Clyde was in his prime in an era where defense was non existent. Clyde played on a team that played extremely fast paced and managed to have two playoff runs at his peak where he only averaged 21-22 ppg. Sorry try again.

Would you agree that the modern rules would help Drexler's game like they did most perimeter players today?

[BigShotBob]

And Clyde played in an era that played no transition defense whatsoever, and guess what? He thrived in transition, that was his biggest strength.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHg0AkZ4u-4&t=

Look at this vid, I've never seen such shitty transition defense in my life. That wouldn't slide in today's league.

Posts one video and says "all he did was thrive in transition." Don't even have to watch it to know you have no idea what you're talking about.

Go look up Larry Bird vs Clyde and see how he really plays.


Yeah because Butler is such a 3pt shooter lmao. That’s who the rule was made to benefit. No one cares about your Mikey myths.

You're proving my point. Freedom of movement is what allowed Butler to live at the free throw line and foul hunt.

[1987_Lakers]

Posts one video and says "all he did was thrive in transition." Don't even have to watch it to know you have no idea what you're talking about.

Go look up Larry Bird vs Clyde and see how he really plays.



You're proving my point. Freedom of movement is what allowed Butler to live at the free throw line and foul hunt.

It's not just one video, go look at more tape yourself to confirm my truths instead of looking like a jackass. And don't misquote me, I did not say "All he did was thrive in transition".

[1987_Lakers]

You're proving my point. Freedom of movement is what allowed Butler to live at the free throw line and foul hunt.

Another dumb statement, since the new rule, Butler has been to the FT line an average of 7.5 times a game since the rule change. From 2015-2018 he averaged 7.6 FTA's per game, he went to the line 9 times a game in 2017 before the rule existed. Just stop typing.

[BigShotBob]

It's not just one video, go look at more tape yourself to confirm my truths instead of looking like a jackass.

I already gave you an example and you're acting clueless per usual. Check out his career high against the Kings too if you need further proof of his half-court scoring prowess that far eclipses Jimmy Butler's. I can't imagine what Clyde would do in this watered down wide open lane era.

[BigShotBob]

Another dumb statement, since the new rule, Butler has been to the FT line an average of 7.5 times a game. From 2015-2018 he averaged 7.6 FTA's per game, he went to the line 9 times a game in 2017 before the rule existed. Just stop typing.

He averaged a career high 9.1 free throw attempts last year. Do you want to keep embarrassing yourself? Really this is pathetic. Clyde > Jimmy Butler and it's not even close.

[1987_Lakers]

He averaged a career high 9.1 free throw attempts last year. Do you want to keep embarrassing yourself? Really this is pathetic. Clyde > Jimmy Butler and it's not even close.

And he averaged 9 FTA per game in 2017 before the rule existed. lol @ acting like that rule has somehow made Butler go to the line at an extremely higher pace, fact is, it hasn't made much of a difference. Keep embarrassing yourself.

[Reggie43]

Drexler basically has a few rule changes to take advantage of mainly the mid 2000s rule changes that made Nash from basic allstar to 2x Mvp and every other perimeter player having career years and the more recent freedom of movement rules wherein youre not allowed to be as physical to guys off the ball

Pretty sure somebody as good as Clyde would find a way to take advantage of these changes even just a little bit.

[BigShotBob]

And he averaged 9 FTA per game in 2017 before the rule existed. lol @ acting like that rule has somehow made Butler go to the line at an extremely higher pace, fact is, it hasn't made much of a difference. Keep embarrassing yourself.

You're purposefully being obtuse but I'll educate you. Look at his FGA. In 2017 he had a career high in FGA. In 2020 he had his lowest since his third year in the league aside from his rookie and sophomore seasons, yet he had a career high in FTA. Do the math.

Put Jimmy Butler in 1992 and he would never sniffs the Finals. But Clyde in 2020 and he just might win it all.

[1987_Lakers]

You're purposefully being obtuse but I'll educate you. Look at his FGA. In 2017 he had a career high in FGA. In 2020 he had his lowest since his third year in the league aside from his rookie and sophomore seasons, yet he had a career high in FTA. Do the math.

Put Jimmy Butler in 1992 and he would never sniffs the Finals. But Clyde in 2020 and he just might win it all.

Again, in 2017 before the rule change the average team attempted 85 fga per game and 23 fta per game.

In 2021 the average team attempted 88 fga per game and 21 fta per game (more shot attempts, less free throws)

So no, the rule change has not made players go to the line more, if anything Butler just became a bit more aggressive offensively. Try again.

[8Ball]

So we have had 10 pages of debate.

The final verdict is Jimmy Butler.

[ArbitraryWater]

So we have had 10 pages of debate.

The final verdict is Jimmy Butler.


Looks like it.

1987_Lakers went too strong

[ImKobe]

Drexler is a 30 ppg scorer in today's league. He could rebound and pass as well as Jimmy. He was a star for the majority of his career, he didn't have to wait for the league to get watered down to put up numbers. His 1995 run is very underrated.

Drexler is clearly ahead of Butler all-time, the only argument is whether you think Butler's more talented or had a better peak due to his bubble Playoff run. Personally, Clyde's 1992 Playoff run is just as good. 26/7/7/2/1 overall. 31/8/7/2/2 against the Suns. He played prime/peak Jordan & Pippen in the Finals in a tough defensive era as opposed to Butler, who was defended by old ass Lebron or KCP for the most of the series, but was shut down when they put AD on him towards the end of the series.

[8Ball]

Jimmy Butler is a top 5 player in 90s league. Not even a top 20 in today's league.

[BigShotBob]

Again, in 2017 before the rule change the average team attempted 85 fga per game and 23 fta per game.

In 2021 the average team attempted 88 fga per game and 21 fta per game (more shot attempts, less free throws)

So no, the rule change has not made players go to the line more, if anything Butler just became a bit more aggressive offensively. Try again.

Your cherry-picking and interpretation of stats are straight up juvenile and comical.

In no world would Jimmy Butler average 9.1 FTA in 1992. He'd be a watered down Anthony Mason at best.

Fact of the matter is that Jimmy Butler 's FGA were near his lowest since his third season in the league yet that was his career high in both FTA and his 3rd highest in points per game.

So unless you're telling me that Jimmy Butler would outproduce Clyde Drexler in 1992 on both ends of the floor, and that he would out produce Clyde in 2021 if he was in his prime/peak, we have nothing more to debate.

[8Ball]

Your cherry-picking and interpretation of stats are straight up juvenile and comical.

In no world would Jimmy Butler average 9.1 FTA in 1992. He'd be a watered down Anthony Mason at best.

Fact of the matter is that Jimmy Butler 's FGA were near his lowest since his third season in the league yet that was his career high in both FTA and his 3rd highest in points per game.

So unless you're telling me that Jimmy Butler would outproduce Clyde Drexler in 1992 on both ends of the floor, and that he would out produce Clyde in 2021 if he was in his prime/peak, we have nothing more to debate.

He had a better finals series performance than Clyde ever did.

[And1AllDay]

Jimmy Butler is a top 5 player in 90s league. Not even a top 20 in today's league.

this is the one

butler > drexler

[And1AllDay]

The '88-'90 Blazers played at a 102-104 pace, the average pace teams play at today is 99. Clyde was in his prime in an era where defense was non existent. Clyde played on a team that played extremely fast paced and managed to have two playoff runs at his peak where he only averaged 21-22 ppg. Sorry try again.

my goodness issa wraaaaap

87' lakers goin hard on these bois :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

Your cherry-picking and interpretation of stats are straight up juvenile and comical.

In no world would Jimmy Butler average 9.1 FTA in 1992. He'd be a watered down Anthony Mason at best.

Fact of the matter is that Jimmy Butler 's FGA were near his lowest since his third season in the league yet that was his career high in both FTA and his 3rd highest in points per game.

So unless you're telling me that Jimmy Butler would outproduce Clyde Drexler in 1992 on both ends of the floor, and that he would out produce Clyde in 2021 if he was in his prime/peak, we have nothing more to debate.

Cherry picking? Coming from a guy who claims the rule change helped Butler feast on the FT line since the rule change.

2015-2018 Butler: 15 FGA per game & 7.6 FTA per game
2019-2021 Butler: 14 FGA per game & 7.5 FTA per game

Tell me, who is the one cherry picking here?

[And1AllDay]

Cherry picking? Coming from a guy who claims the rule change helped Butler feast on the FT line since the rule change.

2015-2018 Butler: 15 FGA per game & 7.6 FTA per game
2019-2021 Butler: 14 FGA per game & 7.5 FTA per game

Tell me, who is the one cherry picking here?

wrekt his ass again :oldlol:

87' lakers out here takin heads bro :oldlol:

[insight]

And Clyde played in an era that played no transition defense whatsoever, and guess what? He thrived in transition, that was his biggest strength.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHg0AkZ4u-4&t=

Look at this vid, I've never seen such shitty transition defense in my life. That wouldn't slide in today's league.

Do you know what a full court press is? What your are watching this Portland breaking the Knicks full court press, not transition defense. No wonder you guys are confused, you don't know what your watching just trying to confirm your bias.

[2much_knowledge]

Ok im convinced haha. Its Jimmy. Why? Played in lebron's era. Thus helping lebron look better

Din din din din we have a winner lol

Such predictable lames

[2much_knowledge]

Brontards always talking about high assists numbers being so important but since Clyde played in the 90s, 12 seasons of at least 5 assist or more ain't that important anymoe

Anyone?

[mehyaM24]

Ok im convinced haha. Its Jimmy. Why? Played in lebron's era. Thus helping lebron look better

Din din din din we have a winner lol

Such predictable lames

what are your thoughts on jimmy's superior mental toughness. his higher skilled iso game. or his first-rate defensive ability?

[2much_knowledge]

what are your thoughts on jimmy's superior mental toughness. his higher skilled iso game. or his first-rate defensive ability?

Im aware Jimmy's a tough MF, came from nothing. Amazing background story. He does dribble better and its a very good defender.

However. Whatever category you want to look at, Drexler owns the highest season average at everything. Ppg, apg, rpg, spg, bpg. The gap in assists, points and steals is too big to be ignored.

Drexler lead his team to 2 finals appearances and won as the 2nd guy

Jimmy has been on 4 different teams, and his only success came in a short pandemic season. Easier to go beast mode in the finals when you have fresh legs from all those months of rest. Not the same as performing great in the playoffs after the 82 season grind.

Let me know if i missed something

[HoopsNY]

Don't know about that. To me, aside from the eye test, impact trumps everything.

Clyde has a sidekick ring and more accolades amassed throughout his career. Which again, was clearly better than Jimmy's. But that doesn't tell me who the better peak player is.

Its hard to contextualize numbers from last years bubble. But a finals where Jimmy played LeBron close is a big deal. People might disagree, and that's fine, because Jimmy's also had multiple playoff runs where he was really good.

Bron 'stans' are irrelevant. They'll argue whatever is convenient at the time :lol Wouldn't put much stock into what they say.

Clyde had a similar performance against a tougher defense in the '90 finals, with better perimeter defenders on him. We saw what happened when AD guarded Butler during the series, especially in big moments. Then what about an entire Pistons defense without relaxed perimeter rules?

And I don't recall multiple playoff runs where Butler has been "really" good. I guess it's all subjective. Just look at Butler's playoff numbers before last year's bubble. He's barely a 17/5/3 player on poor efficiency.

Last year's finals suddenly put him into that conversation. But is that really fair? And if we do that, then where does Jamal Murray rank amongst other top 50 players? Or better yet - Donovan Mitchell?

[jayfan]

Was LBJ's "weakest" Finals opponent better than MJ's best?

A lot of interesting topics splintered from this thread.

But the fatal flaw in OP's premise is this:

Portland was the worst (2nd worst at best) of the 6 teams Jordan faced in the Finals. And they had the worst record of the 6 opponents Jordan faced in the Finals.



.

[ArbitraryWater]

cherry picking? Coming from a guy who claims the rule change helped butler feast on the ft line since the rule change.

2015-2018 butler: 15 fga per game & 7.6 fta per game
2019-2021 butler: 14 fga per game & 7.5 fta per game

tell me, who is the one cherry picking here?


boom

[mehyaM24]

Im aware Jimmy's a tough MF, came from nothing. Amazing background story. He does dribble better and its a very good defender.

However. Whatever category you want to look at, Drexler owns the highest season average at everything. Ppg, apg, rpg, spg, bpg. The gap in assists, points and steals is too big to be ignored.

Drexler lead his team to 2 finals appearances and won as the 2nd guy

Jimmy has been on 4 different teams, and his only success came in a short pandemic season. Easier to go beast mode in the finals when you have fresh legs from all those months of rest. Not the same as performing great in the playoffs after the 82 season grind.

Let me know if i missed something

you make good points. i also think drexler was better overall, but i'm not convinced 19, 20 or 21 butler wouldn't average similar numbers against jordan. but with better defense. the 92 blazers played at a higher pace, and scored more points a game than miami does today. when the game slows, butler is also less reliant on layups. he's got a better jumpshot than drexler too.

[8Ball]

Anyone?

Jimmy Butler finals stats:

26/10/8

Clyde Drexler never reached that level in the finals.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Clyde had a similar performance against a tougher defense in the '90 finals, with better perimeter defenders on him. We saw what happened when AD guarded Butler during the series, especially in big moments. Then what about an entire Pistons defense without relaxed perimeter rules?

And I don't recall multiple playoff runs where Butler has been "really" good. I guess it's all subjective. Just look at Butler's playoff numbers before last year's bubble. He's barely a 17/5/3 player on poor efficiency.

Last year's finals suddenly put him into that conversation. But is that really fair? And if we do that, then where does Jamal Murray rank amongst other top 50 players? Or better yet - Donovan Mitchell?

Well, if people think Clyde's best playoff runs were really good then so were Butler's. Who had similar advanced stats although greater defensive impact.

And don't think Jimmy qualifies as an 'outlier' bubble player. His postseason play with Chicago in 2015 and Philly in 2019 was solid.

[HoopsNY]

you make good points. i also think drexler was better overall, but i'm not convinced 19, 20 or 21 butler wouldn't average similar numbers against jordan. but with better defense. the 92 blazers played at a higher pace, and scored more points a game than miami does today. when the game slows, butler is also less reliant on layups. he's got a better jumpshot than drexler too.

Why does 2019 Butler get that benefit of the doubt? He was on a stacked Philly team with him, Harris, Embiid, and Simmons, and still lost in the playoffs. In the Brooklyn series, he put up 16/5/5/2 on 47%. He put up 22/7/6/1 on 44% against Toronto.

In game 7 against Toronto, Butler put up 16/4/1/1/0 on 35%.

I'm telling you that this entire premise is largely based on his NBA finals performance, which is completely devoid of any context.

[HoopsNY]

Well, if people think Clyde's best playoff runs were really good then so were Butler's. Who had similar advanced stats although greater defensive impact.

And don't think Jimmy qualifies as an 'outlier' bubble player. His postseason play with Chicago in 2015 and Philly in 2019 was solid.

I wouldn't regard his 2015 playoffs that highly, either. He had a great series against Milwaukee, but that wasn't the Milwaukee team we're used to seeing. The Bucks won 41 games that year and were horrid in the first round against Chicago's defense. In game 6, they lost by like, 100 points. (I know it's not 100 but they got bitch slapped so hard that it was utterly embarrassing).

Giannis was young then and a terrible player. Milwaukee as a team shot 39% in that series.

Butler's series against Cleveland wasn't stellar. So I think he's a tad bit overrated here, especially when Clyde was able to sustain high levels of play deeper into the playoffs.

I've already spoken about his 2019 performance in a previous post.

[mehyaM24]

Why does 2019 Butler get that benefit of the doubt? He was on a stacked Philly team with him, Harris, Embiid, and Simmons, and still lost in the playoffs. In the Brooklyn series, he put up 16/5/5/2 on 47%. He put up 22/7/6/1 on 44% against Toronto.

In game 7 against Toronto, Butler put up 16/4/1/1/0 on 35%.

I'm telling you that this entire premise is largely based on his NBA finals performance, which is completely devoid of any context.

his raw stats are skewed playing with embiid & simmons. 19/6/5 with superior defense & a 6bpm/1.0 vorp is similar to 92 drexlers 8 bpm/2 vorp. these advanced metrics don't pickup defense too well, either. if you look at rapm, though, butler's defense was superb.

[HoopsNY]

you make good points. i also think drexler was better overall, but i'm not convinced 19, 20 or 21 butler wouldn't average similar numbers against jordan. but with better defense. the 92 blazers played at a higher pace, and scored more points a game than miami does today. when the game slows, butler is also less reliant on layups. he's got a better jumpshot than drexler too.

I don't understand where these ideas about Drexler are coming from. Drexler shot 41% from 16-29 ft in 1997 and 37% in 1998. His 10-16 numbers are pretty bad, but his 3 pt % is comparable to Butler's. Butler shot lower from 16-29 ft and has never had a season where he's shot the ball better than Drexler's 1997 season from that distance.

Given that these were Drexler's final seasons where he shot 44% overall, then what about the late 80s and early 90s where he shot 50%? What were his mid-range percentages then?

[And1AllDay]

Jimmy Butler finals stats:

26/10/8

Clyde Drexler never reached that level in the finals.


issa

:dancin

big

:djparty

wrap

:hammertime:
:banana:

[HoopsNY]

his raw stats are skewed playing with embiid & simmons. 19/6/5 with superior defense & a 6bpm/1.0 vorp is similar to 92 drexlers 8 bpm/2 vorp. these advanced metrics don't pickup defense too well, either. if you look at rapm, though, butler's defense was superb.

I've admitted defensively, Butler is the far better defender. But I don't think that makes up for Clyde's ability to score, run in transition, athleticism, playmaking, and rebounding. To add on, Clyde was a decent defensive player.

No one was making this argument before last year's finals, and that should tell people all that they need to know.

But when you dissect the fact that Butler has only played 2 full seasons, that Clyde has been the better regular season, playoffs, and even game 7 performer (25/10/7 on 47%) to Butler (12.5/4.5/2.5 on 33%), it's becomes difficult to disqualify all those things in favor of just 1 NBA finals appearance, especially when Drexler has a comparable finals appearance against Detroit in the 1990 Finals.

[HoopsNY]

aka midrange. jimmy is a good midrange shooter, which is what i think of when the game slows. and in the playoffs perimeter players NEED good jumpshooting imo. 16-29 feet includes the 3 and jimmy was never a good 3PT shooter. you also claimed drexler was "pretty bad" from 10-16. no, he was horrific lol. .109 and .067 in the playoffs :oldlol: that's compared to butler's 53% in the 19 playoffs & 46% in the 20 playoffs.



we can't assume that, because you're only basing it on his 97 run. in the 98 playoffs, drexler shot 23% from that same range (butler has 5 playoff runs shooting well above that). overall its too small of a sample to conclude anything.

Fair points.

[mehyaM24]

double post, my bad


I don't understand where these ideas about Drexler are coming from. Drexler shot 41% from 16-29 ft in 1997 and 37% in 1998. His 10-16 numbers are pretty bad, but his 3 pt % is comparable to Butler's. Butler shot lower from 16-29 ft and has never had a season where he's shot the ball better than Drexler's 1997 season from that distance.

aka midrange. jimmy is a good midrange shooter, which is what i think of when the game slows. and in the playoffs perimeter players NEED good jumpshooting imo. 16-29 feet includes the 3 and jimmy was never a good 3PT shooter. you also claimed drexler was "pretty bad" from 10-16. no, he was horrific lol. .109 and .067 in the playoffs :oldlol: that's compared to butler's 53% in the 19 playoffs & 46% in the 20 playoffs.

for reference though, jimmy shot 41% from 16-3PT in last years playoffs. and 40% in the 17 playoffs.


Given that these were Drexler's final seasons where he shot 44% overall, then what about the late 80s and early 90s where he shot 50%? What were his mid-range percentages then?

we can't assume that, because you're only basing it on his 97 run. in the 98 playoffs, drexler shot 23% from that same range (butler has 5 playoff runs shooting well above that). overall its too small of a sample to conclude anything.

[And1AllDay]

Jimmy Butler finals stats:

26/10/8

Clyde Drexler never reached that level in the finals.

boom

[dankok8]

If you read my first post, you would see that I would rank Drexler ahead of Butler because he has the individual accolades, this is more of a peak discussion,. For me personally, I'm not a big fan of Drexler's shooting ability, ball handling, & lack of half court scoring. Butler brings me better defense, with similar offensive impact & has that alpha in him. Of course, I wouldn't want either player as my best player if I was building a championship team.

Iverson & Westbrook individually rank pretty high all-time, but would you want them on your team? Maybe if you have a weak roster, but I'm not having them if I already have the pieces to win it all. Nothing foolish about not wanting great players who won't fit the team or era. Would you replace Klay with Iverson on the 2017 Warriors? No, they become a worse team.

Drexler's shooting ability, ball-handling and halfcourt scoring are all better than Butler's though. Neither guy would be my first choice as a main guy on a title team either but Clyde is much closer to a #1 guy. Peak Clyde is a 26/7/7 player with good defense. Butler is a 21/6/5 player with better defense. I'll always take Clyde. And like I said, he was literally the antithesis of empty stats. He was always known as a great winner and had outstanding intangibles.

The great thing about active players is they can still show us something knew. If Butler leads to Heat to another finals this year putting up great numbers maybe we can revisit this discussion. So far though, except one inflated finals series, Butler hasn't shown to be in the same class as Drexler. Otherwise we can make a Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray vs. Drexler threads as well. That'd be rather stupid don't you think...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I wouldn't regard his 2015 playoffs that highly, either. He had a great series against Milwaukee, but that wasn't the Milwaukee team we're used to seeing. The Bucks won 41 games that year and were horrid in the first round against Chicago's defense. In game 6, they lost by like, 100 points. (I know it's not 100 but they got bitch slapped so hard that it was utterly embarrassing).

Giannis was young then and a terrible player. Milwaukee as a team shot 39% in that series.

Butler's series against Cleveland wasn't stellar. So I think he's a tad bit overrated here, especially when Clyde was able to sustain high levels of play deeper into the playoffs.

I've already spoken about his 2019 performance in a previous post.

Depends what you're looking at. Certain analytics, like the ones posted in this thread, show Jimmy having similar impact.

And when defense is broken down, I believe they're both closer than some lead on.

Kinda ironic that you think Jimmy is overrated, because I feel the same way about Clyde. But that's fine. We can agree to disagree.

[HoopsNY]

Depends what you're looking at. Certain analytics, like the ones posted in this thread, show Jimmy having similar impact.

And when defense is broken down, I believe they're both closer than some lead on.

Kinda ironic that you think Jimmy is overrated, because I feel the same way about Clyde. But that's fine. We can agree to disagree.

It's not that I think Jimmy is overrated. If you've analyzed my posts since I've been on ISH, I'm very big on playoffs, finals, elimination games, and game 7s, defense, and then regular season accomplishments. I don't really care for accolades so much as they're a popularity contest, but still and all they do count in the grand scheme of things.

Considering that Drexler had much more success in the playoffs and has proven himself to be an elite player in the NBA finals, together with game 7 performances and has done it while mostly being healthy, then I think that matters more than Butler's body of work, which is lacking due to injuries and overinflated due to the bubble last year.

I get why you say you think Clyde is a bit overrated, but what were analysts and the league saying in the late 80s and early 90s? Sure, the comparisons to MJ were grossly overblown, but just merely being in the conversation does say something.

I love Butler's game. I think he's a nice mix of the old school and new school. But this hype is mainly due to the situation that occurred last year with Covid-19. Teams were playing pickup ball in the bubble.

[HoopsNY]

Drexler's shooting ability, ball-handling and halfcourt scoring are all better than Butler's though. Neither guy would be my first choice as a main guy on a title team either but Clyde is much closer to a #1 guy. Peak Clyde is a 26/7/7 player with good defense. Butler is a 21/6/5 player with better defense. I'll always take Clyde. And like I said, he was literally the antithesis of empty stats. He was always known as a great winner and had outstanding intangibles.

The great thing about active players is they can still show us something knew. If Butler leads to Heat to another finals this year putting up great numbers maybe we can revisit this discussion. So far though, except one inflated finals series, Butler hasn't shown to be in the same class as Drexler. Otherwise we can make a Donovan Mitchell or Jamal Murray vs. Drexler threads as well. That'd be rather stupid don't you think...

This was my point. Mitchell, for example, put up 36/5/5 on 70% TS%. I guess that makes him better than, I dunno, Wilt?

Murray put up 27/5/7 on 64% TS%. Where does he now stack against the likes of Ray Allen or Reggie Miller?

[PeroAntic]

I love Butler's game. I think he's a nice mix of the old school and new school. But this hype is mainly due to the situation that occurred last year with Covid-19. Teams were playing pickup ball in the bubble.
You haven't seen what Butler was doing for the Wolves and the Sixers? Whoever thinks Butler's performance last year was an anomaly is completely wrong. It was the other years that were the anomaly, because he was not in the right setting, or was unlucky, but he had the same quality.

[HoopsNY]

You haven't seen what Butler was doing for the Wolves and the Sixers? Whoever thinks Butler's performance last year was an anomaly is completely wrong. It was the other years that were the anomaly, because he was not in the right setting, or was unlucky, but he had the same quality.

Sure I saw what he did in Minnesota. But 26/8/10 on 55%? Show me another series where he came close to that. How is that not an anomaly? Especially when you consider the circumstances.

With Philly he actually underachieved given how great that team was. They legit had 4 All-Star level players.

[PeroAntic]

Sure I saw what he did in Minnesota. But 26/8/10 on 55%? Show me another series where he came close to that. How is that not an anomaly? Especially when you consider the circumstances.

With Philly he actually underachieved given how great that team was. They legit had 4 All-Star level players.

Thats what happens when you hand him the keys and surround him with the perfect supporting cast. When you have to coexist with Towns or Simmons your stats will suffer but his impact was huge. Simmons spacing, Embiid's injury, Harris' massive drop off from the RS and most of all the coaching were the main reasons for losing to Toronto. It was actully him that took them so far especially in the end of games. Last year he was the same player he was the previous ones, just in different circumstances where his mentality and leadership were embraced instead of neutralized.

[2much_knowledge]

issa

:dancin

big

:djparty

wrap

:hammertime:
:banana:


Using stats from a grand total of 6 games as an argument

Retarded

[And1AllDay]

Using stats from a grand total of 6 games as an argument

Retarded

biggest stage my guy, clyde choked

[HoopsNY]

Thats what happens when you hand him the keys and surround him with the perfect supporting cast. When you have to coexist with Towns or Simmons your stats will suffer but his impact was huge. Simmons spacing, Embiid's injury, Harris' massive drop off from the RS and most of all the coaching were the main reasons for losing to Toronto. It was actully him that took them so far especially in the end of games. Last year he was the same player he was the previous ones, just in different circumstances where his mentality and leadership were embraced instead of neutralized.

Bro c'mon. Look at the first three rounds of the 2020 playoffs:

1st Round: 20/5/4 on 41%
2nd Round: 23/6/4 on 53%
3rd Round: 19/6/5 on 43%

So he didn't play with his cast the first three rounds or something?

[2much_knowledge]

biggest stage my guy, clyde choked

Bubble ring. Short season. Fresh legs. Nuff said

[PeroAntic]

Bro c'mon. Look at the first three rounds of the 2020 playoffs:

1st Round: 20/5/4 on 41%
2nd Round: 23/6/4 on 53%
3rd Round: 19/6/5 on 43%

So he didn't play with his cast the first three rounds or something?

Dragic and Adebayo were down in the finals, so Jimmy took over the rebounding and assisting task. How is this a bad thing? It just shows he can step up at any time and steal two games from the stacked Lakers. Thats why his stats are deceiving - the ability is clearly there, but he doesn't go for boxscore stuffing because it can be detrimental to winning when your squad relies on hard work and team spirit.

[insight]

This post looks even more ridiculous, no way Clyde Drexler would get swept by the Bucks in round one! The Bubble has burst!

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Bubble Jimmy > Clyde > Jimmy

[HoopsNY]

This post looks even more ridiculous, no way Clyde Drexler would get swept by the Bucks in round one! The Bubble has burst!

Yep. But ISH fans wanna ride hype trains until the wheels fall off. I kept telling everyone that the bubble produced anomalies all across the league. It's unreal that people can't seem to contextualize anything despite there being glaring differences in the way the game is being played now vs then.

[PeroAntic]

Yep. But ISH fans wanna ride hype trains until the wheels fall off. I kept telling everyone that the bubble produced anomalies all across the league. It's unreal that people can't seem to contextualize anything despite there being glaring differences in the way the game is being played now vs then.

How did you conclude that last year's Jimmy's bubble performance is an anomaly, and not this year's performance?

[Axe]

How did you conclude that last year's Jimmy's bubble performance is an anomaly, and not this year's performance?
He thinks the whole bubble last year was nonsense because kong won it.

[Phoenix]

How did you conclude that last year's Jimmy's bubble performance is an anomaly, and not this year's performance?

Jimmy dropped 28/10/8 in the finals. That's way more an anomaly than the 15/6/6 he's dropping against the Bucks this year. Just look at his past playoff performances. He's had good series but shit, he'd be one of the greatest ever if we had 10 years of what he did in the finals last year.

[PeroAntic]

Jimmy dropped 28/10/8 in the finals. That's way more an anomaly than the 15/6/6 he's dropping against the Bucks this year.
No its not. Last playoffs was much closer to Jimmy's true quality than this one. People pointing to this years performance to prove that last year was a fluke have no idea what theyre talking about.

[8Ball]

This post looks even more ridiculous, no way Clyde Drexler would get swept by the Bucks in round one! The Bubble has burst!

No it doesn't?

Bucks have the clearly superior team with a 2x MVP in his prime.

Bam Adebayo is a bum. Dragic is a bum. Herro is a bum. Who else is doing anything on the Heat?


Jimmy Butler > Clyde Drexler. That was decided last October 2020. History is cemented.

[15yearmagicfan]

Asinine.

Drexler was a far better offensive player.

Big time.

[Joey Turnbuckle]

I'll take Morris Peterson over Jimmy Butler

[Phoenix]

No its not. Last playoffs was much closer to Jimmy's true quality than this one. People pointing to this years performance to prove that last year was a fluke have no idea what theyre talking about.

Are we looking at the same numbers? Jimmy has played 15 playoff series. 7 of them he's averaged under 20ppg ( and I'm not including one series at 19.8. We'll call that a 20ppg series for argument's sake). He has 5 series averaging under 16ppg. He has one series at 25ppg in 2015, has never had a series where he averaged more than 8 rebounds or 10 assists ( or even close to those numbers).

So in a finals series against the eventual champion he has a career high in Points, rebounds, assists and field goal %... in essence he's never had an overall series CLOSE to that production, but has 4-5 other series that are similar to this years raw production(15/6/6)...and you're saying last years finals is the more typical performance? No it isn't. My point isn't that he's typically as bad as he has been this year, my point is he NEVER played as well in the past as he did in last years finals. None of the available evidence suggests that. If you put 2020 bubble Butler ( especially Finals Butler) on the 2019 Sixers they may have won the chip.

[mehyaM24]

No its not. Last playoffs was much closer to Jimmy's true quality than this one. People pointing to this years performance to prove that last year was a fluke have no idea what theyre talking about.

its a small sample with 3 games, but they're butler's lowest numbers of his playoff career. by far. he's down near 4 points his average & shooting 15% worse lol. the bubble inflated his production to some extent, but right now jimmy is playing WAY below his normal standards. the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Phoenix]

its a small sample with 3 games, but they're butler's lowest numbers of his playoff career. by far. he's down near 4 points his average & shooting 15% worse lol. the bubble inflated his numbers to some extent, but right now he's playing WAY below his normal standards. the truth is somewhere in the middle.

This is it. He's not typically *this* bad( this years series vs the Bucks) but he's never been *that* good( against the Lakers in the finals). Something like 19/6/6 and great defense would be a standard 'good' Jimmy Butler series. 26/10/8 is like some Lebron level shit.

[2much_knowledge]

Im glad this was bumped. It gets more hilarious by the day lol

[mehyaM24]

This is it. He's not typically *this* bad( this years series vs the Bucks) but he's never been *that* good( against the Lakers in the finals). Something like 19/6/6 and great defense would be typical Jimmy Butler level. 26/10/8 is like some Lebron level shit.

ya you could say that was an aberration, and i wouldn't disagree, but it was still just one series. there have been plenty of players to go off in ONE series. for the playoffs though jimmy averaged 22/7/6. he's had multiple playoff runs averaging similar numbers too. so i can see the point "peroantic" is making. jimmy's overall bubble play, the finals aside, is closer to the norm than what we're seeing now.

[Phoenix]

ya you could say that was an aberration, and i wouldn't disagree, but it was still just one series. there have been plenty of players to go off in ONE series. for the playoffs though jimmy averaged 22/7/6. he's had multiple playoff runs averaging similar numbers too. so i can see the point "peroantic" is making. jimmy's overall bubble play, the finals aside, is closer to the norm than what we're seeing now.

I think the point you made of 'somewhere in the middle' probably sums it up best. As I said before 11 of his 15 playoff series he's under 20ppg( not that I want to boil it down to just stats, but I assume we are talking about his raw production when assessing this). His pre-finals run was typical Jimmy Butler( which would be like, what? Top 15 level play). But in the finals that was some top 5 level stuff happening there. 15/7/6 this playoffs against the Bucks isn't too dissimilar from some other series just as far as raw stats go, but his efficiency is horrendous (31%).

[HoopsNY]

How did you conclude that last year's Jimmy's bubble performance is an anomaly, and not this year's performance?

Just look at the data and efficiency numbers. Teams did not have to travel. That is far less taxing than now. In addition, having no fans in the arena releases pressure, not to mention the concept of home/away games and the pressures associated with that.

[HoopsNY]

He thinks the whole bubble last year was nonsense because kong won it.

Huh? When did I ever say that. You must have me confused with someone else bro.

[LAmbruh]

funny how Lebron's weakest Finals opponent is still better than MJ's toughest :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

Jimmy dropped 28/10/8 in the finals. That's way more an anomaly than the 15/6/6 he's dropping against the Bucks this year. Just look at his past playoff performances. He's had good series but shit, he'd be one of the greatest ever if we had 10 years of what he did in the finals last year.

Even if you don't focus on the finals; look at Butler's numbers against the very same team he's facing now.

2020: 23/6/4 on 53/46/85 splits
2021: 15/7/6 on 31/31/67 splits

Look at the scoring and shooting numbers. It's blatantly obvious.

[Joey Turnbuckle]

funny how Lebron's weakest Finals opponent is still better than MJ's toughest :oldlol:

Funny how fat white dudes are currently 2 of the best 5 players in the nba

[mehyaM24]

I think the point you made of 'somewhere in the middle' probably sums it up best. As I said before 11 of his 15 playoff series he's under 20ppg( not that I want to boil it down to just stats, but I assume we are talking about his raw production when assessing this). His pre-finals run was typical Jimmy Butler( which would be like, what? Top 15 level play). But in the finals that was some top 5 level stuff happening there. 15/7/6 this playoffs against the Bucks isn't too dissimilar from some other series just as far as raw stats go, but his efficiency is horrendous (31%).

from 14-19, playoff butler averaged 21/6/5 on 45% from the field. that doesn't differ much from his bubble play overall. i definitely agree that his finals production was ridiculous, but i also recognize that it was just one series. and that players can go off in such a small time frame.

anyone arguing the 20 finals was "the real jimmy butler" is out of their mind. but his play in the postseason, overall? its closer to his average. a conclusion i think is fair.


funny how Lebron's weakest Finals opponent is still better than MJ's toughest :oldlol:

nah dude you're tripping lol

[Phoenix]

Even if you don't focus on the finals; look at Butler's numbers against the very same team he's facing now.

2020: 23/6/4 on 53/46/85 splits
2021: 15/7/6 on 31/31/67 splits

Look at the scoring and shooting numbers. It's blatantly obvious.

Yeah, I don't think it's a stretch to say if last years playoffs were played under normal conditions the Heat aren't winning that series. The jarring thing this year is his efficiency, if he was 15/7/6 on 48% shooting or something close I wouldn't be like OMG he's playing horrible. If he was doing 20/7/6 I'd say that's pretty par for the course.

[Shooter]

Drexler will never come close to 2020 Butler.

Period.

Give Jimmy 1995 Hakeem and they'll win a chip easily.

[Shooter]

funny how Lebron's weakest Finals opponent is still better than MJ's toughest :oldlol:

Aint that shit so wild? :lol

Like, it's levels to this shit baby bois :lol

[Phoenix]

anyone arguing the 20 finals was "the real jimmy butler" is out of their mind. but his play in the postseason, overall? its closer to his average. a conclusion i think is fair.





That's a fair take on it.

[2much_knowledge]

Drexler will never come close to 2020 Butler.

Period.

Give Jimmy 1995 Hakeem and they'll win a chip easily.

Still clinging to a 6 game period in a bubble season lol. What about now loser? I thought he was soooo locked in

[ImKobe]

Still clinging to a 6 game period in a bubble season lol. What about now loser? I thought he was soooo locked in

These clowns actually thought Butler was better because of ONE fluke run :kobe: Lebron makes any opposing forward look like a superstar I guess.

[insight]

Drexler will never come close to 2020 Butler.

Period.

Give Jimmy 1995 Hakeem and they'll win a chip easily.

Butler already played with Embid and couldn't get it done. He was the 4th option behind Embid, Simmons, and Tobias. He also couldn't get anything going with KAT in Minn.

[Lebron23]

Clyde Drexler. Butler and the Heat overachieved in the
Bubble.

[PeroAntic]

Butler already played with Embid and couldn't get it done. He was the 4th option behind Embid, Simmons, and Tobias. He also couldn't get anything going with KAT in Minn.

are you seriously saying these words?

[2much_knowledge]

These clowns actually thought Butler was better because of ONE fluke run :kobe: Lebron makes any opposing forward look like a superstar I guess.

Could be that. Allowing a team in one leg two wins.... says about lebron more than about jimmy

[SATAN]

LeBron wasn't guarding Jimmy for the majority of the series and did well when he did step up and guard him.

[HoopsNY]

So now that the Bucks/Heat series is over, it's pretty evident that Butler isn't close to Drexler. #BubbleNumbersAreInflated

[2much_knowledge]

So now that the Bucks/Heat series is over, it's pretty evident that Butler isn't close to Drexler. #BubbleNumbersAreInflated

Everyone with half a brain knew this. A great series doesn't compensate a whole career

[Bronbron23]

This dumbass thread didn't age well. Whoever said butler your an idiot:facepalm

[HoopsNY]

This dumbass thread didn't age well. Whoever said butler your an idiot:facepalm

The thing is, some were saying it's close. The reality is that it isn't. But how wasn't this obvious? Look at Butler's efficiency numbers against Milwaukee in last year's bubble series. Look at his efficiency this year. Even if we say the drop-off is an anomaly, his bubble numbers also were an anomaly against Milwaukee.

[And1AllDay]

This dumbass thread didn't age well. Whoever said butler your an idiot:facepalm

clyde has eight times been a 1st round defeated loser. and his 93 blunder hurts the most if we go there

19 points
1st rd loss
.419% fg


he followed it next year in 94 vs houston rockets with
21 pts
1st rd loss
.425% fg

then the next yr he joined rockets in 95

should butler join giannis bucks? :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

clyde has eight times been a 1st round defeated loser. and his 93 blunder hurts the most if we go there

19 points
1st rd loss
.419% fg


he followed it next year in 94 vs houston rockets with
21 pts
1st rd loss
.425% fg

then the next yr he joined rockets in 95

should butler join giannis bucks? :oldlol:

This guy obviously didn't watch Butler's play this postseason. :facepalm

Bran stans continue with their desperate attempts to disparage MJ's competition while elevating LeBron's.

[And1AllDay]

This guy obviously didn't watch Butler's play this postseason. :facepalm

Bran stans continue with their desperate attempts to disparage MJ's competition while elevating LeBron's.

lemme know bb girrrrrrrrrr


b2b first rd exits and then joined the team that beat him the next year :oldlol:

weak af

[Bronbron23]

The thing is, some were saying it's close. The reality is that it isn't. But how wasn't this obvious? Look at Butler's efficiency numbers against Milwaukee in last year's bubble series. Look at his efficiency this year. Even if we say the drop-off is an anomaly, his bubble numbers also were an anomaly against Milwaukee.

Yeah the shit is crazy man

[HoopsNY]

Yeah the shit is crazy man

Butler's TS% was 68% last year against Milwaukee, the highest of his career. The next highest was his series against LAL. Those two trump anything else he's done by a mile.

[Bronbron23]

clyde has eight times been a 1st round defeated loser. and his 93 blunder hurts the most if we go there

19 points
1st rd loss
.419% fg


he followed it next year in 94 vs houston rockets with
21 pts
1st rd loss
.425% fg

then the next yr he joined rockets in 95

should butler join giannis bucks? :oldlol:

Nope he just try his hardest to get matched up against bron so he can look like an mvp again :facepalm

[ThatCoolKid]

The Heat played significantly worse this season despite having similar personel. Jimmy is a guy who can put up all time great performances and is clutch/elite defender/elite playmaker, but doesn't have the baseline shooting touch to be an offensive great consistently. But when he's hot Jimmy has shown he can be a top level player. The difference is the real top level players do it every night.

[mehyaM24]

The Heat played significantly worse this season despite having similar personel. Jimmy is a guy who can put up all time great performances and is clutch/elite defender/elite playmaker, but doesn't have the baseline shooting touch to be an offensive great consistently. But when he's hot Jimmy has shown he can be a top level player. The difference is the real top level players do it every night.

this. jimmy clearly underperformed but at his best he's on similar footing.

[ELITEpower23]

clyde has eight times been a 1st round defeated loser. and his 93 blunder hurts the most if we go there

19 points
1st rd loss
.419% fg


he followed it next year in 94 vs houston rockets with
21 pts
1st rd loss
.425% fg

then the next yr he joined rockets in 95

should butler join giannis bucks? :oldlol:

/thread

[Bronbron23]

You guys are stubborn as hell. Just take the loss. Clyde is a top 60 player at worst all time. Butler won't even be top 100. The shit ain't close tbh

[mehyaM24]

You guys are stubborn as hell. Just take the loss. Clyde is a top 60 player at worst all time. Butler won't even be top 100. The shit ain't close tbh

all time you are correct. it isn't close. i think some are talking about peak play, which narrows the gap.

[Bronbron23]

all time you are correct. it isn't close. i think some are talking about peak play, which narrows the gap.

I guess if we're talking about a very short peak which we literally never do on here. Clyde had multiple seasons of 25 or more. He was considered a top 5 player in the league for a whole year. Butler never had a peak like this. He had a hot short run in the bubble which is looking like an anomaly in a weird year

[mehyaM24]

I guess if we're talking about a very short peak which we literally never do on here. Clyde had multiple seasons of 25 or more. He was considered a top 5 player in the league for a whole year. Butler never had a peak like this. He had a hot short run in the bubble which is looking like an anomaly in a weird year

i see peaks argued often. mcgrady, hill & penny are brought up all the time.

because of the finals, i agree bubble play inflated jimmy's numbers. still, though, his production overall was similar to his postseason play from 14-19. those numbers were all baseline for jimmy.

[Bronbron23]

i see peaks argued often. mcgrady, hill & penny are brought up all the time.

because of the finals, i agree bubble play inflated jimmy's numbers. still, though, his production overall was similar to his postseason play from 14-19. those numbers were all baseline for jimmy.

I don't know. There wasn't anything special about his post season play from 14-19. He had a few decent series and a few mediocre. 2015 was probably his best. He averaged about 23/6/3 on 44% for the 2 series.

And I've never heard anyone compare hill, tmac or hardaway to a player of Clyde's caliber. I think when people refer to those guys it's more about their potential if injuries didn't cut their career short. We don't even know what their peaks would of been. They all got hurt right before their primes.

When people compare peaks like bron and mj for instance it's based on a year or more of play. Not a couple weeks like with butler. Butler had a really good couple weeks in the bubble in the easiest era ever. That's not a peak. It's a hot couple of weeks.

[Phoenix]

And I've never heard anyone compare hill, tmac or hardaway to a player of Clyde's caliber. I think when people refer to those guys it's more about their potential if injuries didn't cut their career short. We don't even know what their peaks would of been. They all got hurt right before their primes.



All those guys were trending to be better than Clyde before injuries derailed them. Its really too bad Tmac became synonymous with first round losses because he was a special, special talent before his body betrayed him.

[Shooter]

clyde has eight times been a 1st round defeated loser. and his 93 blunder hurts the most if we go there

19 points
1st rd loss
.419% fg


he followed it next year in 94 vs houston rockets with
21 pts
1st rd loss
.425% fg

then the next yr he joined rockets in 95

should butler join giannis bucks? :oldlol:

Yikes.

Butler > Drexler

[HoopsNY]

all time you are correct. it isn't close. i think some are talking about peak play, which narrows the gap.

Last year greatly skews the conversation. Before 2020, was this even a topic of debate? I don't recall anyone discussing it in the media at least.