What aspect of hoop skills, resume or accolades is Lebron the best ever at?.. Otoh...

[3ball]

.
* the best ring count in 3-pointer basketball history is Jordan's 6 rings (as the best player)

* the best team ceiling/Finals record is Jordan's 6/6

* the best FMVP count is Jordan's 6

* the best scorer ever is Jordan

* the best production rate (stats) is Jordan (#1 PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP)

* the best mid-range and 2-point jumpshooter ever is MJ

* the best fadeaway is Jordan's

* Jordan is the only goat-level shooter and athlete

* the best combo leaper (1 or 2 legs)


See a trend here?... Jordan was the best at things like winning and skills, so he's goat, whereas lebron isn't the best at anything.

Ultimately, rings with equal-scoring partners (1b's) are less than rings with 2nd options and Jordan has the most rings with 2nd options.... everyone in history needed an equal-scoring teammate for half their rings (1b), except Jordan, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less for every playoff run... teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career, thus giving him maximum ring quality and stat quality.

Kenny Smith talks about mj being the only 1-man show here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s

[Bronbron23]

.
* the best ring count in 3-pointer basketball history is Jordan's 6 rings (as the best player)

* the best team ceiling/Finals record is Jordan's 6/6

* the best FMVP count is Jordan's 6

* the best scorer ever is Jordan

* the best production rate (stats) of all-time is Jordan (#1 PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP)

* the best mid-range and 2-point jumpshooter ever is MJ

* the best fadeaway is Jordan's

* and MJ is the only all-time-level athlete that was an elite jumpshooter too... aka the best shooter-athlete

* the best combo leaper (1 or 2 legs)


See a trend here?... Jordan was the best at things like winning and skills, so he's goat, whereas lebron isn't the best at anything.

Ultimately, rings with equal-scoring partners (1b's) are less than rings with 2nd options and Jordan has the most rings with 2nd options.... everyone in history needed an equal-scoring teammate for half their rings (1b), except Jordan, who won 6 rings with a true 2nd option that averaged far less for every playoff run... teammate scoring matters because equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so only MJ faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career, thus giving him maximum ring quality and stat quality.

Kenny Smith talks about mj being the only 1-man show here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s

3 point shooting, finishing, passing and rebounding is hard to argue against

[3ball]

3 point shooting, finishing, passing and rebounding is hard to argue against


Lebron isn't the best ever at anything you mentioned

Moses Malone rebounded better

Nash passed better

Beal shoots threes better

[nineiron]

he's the best at traveling and stiff arming to the rim

[Bronbron23]

Lebron isn't the best ever at anything you mentioned

Moses Malone rebounded better

Nash passed better

Beal shoots threes better

Thought you were talking compared to mj. All time he has an argument for finishing but that's a tough one to argue

[3ball]

Thought you were talking compared to mj. All time he has an argument for finishing but that's a tough one to argue


Oh so you didn't read the OP where I listed the things that MJ was the best EVER at

But I guess the thread title was poorly stated.. just fixed to include "ever"

[RRR3]

LeBron is the best finisher ever. At least for a perimeter player. Dude was shooting almost 80% from 0-3 feet some years. Absurd.

[Bronbron23]

Oh so you didn't read the OP where I listed the things that MJ was the best EVER at

But I guess the thread title was poorly stated.. just fixed to include "ever"

Nah i saw that but that wasn't the question. The question was about bron. And some of those mj ones are trivial. It be like me saying bron is the best at beating 73 win teams or best in game 7's or best at coming from diwn 3-1 in the finals. I'm sure theres plenty more i coukd come up with.

[nineiron]

LeBron is the best finisher ever. At least for a perimeter player. Dude was shooting almost 80% from 0-3 feet some years. Absurd.

0-3 feet? LMFAO

anyway, Kyrie is a better finisher than LeBald

[Manny98]

He's the best all around player, he doesn't need to be the best at a specific thing because he's so well rounded

LeBron has the best combination of scoring + playmaking + defense of any player ever

He's a one of a kind athlete

[Bronbron23]

Oh so you didn't read the OP where I listed the things that MJ was the best EVER at

But I guess the thread title was poorly stated.. just fixed to include "ever"

Best 36 year old all time. That's 5 should i keep going?

[3ball]

Nah i saw that but that wasn't the question. The question was about bron. And some of those mj ones are trivial. It be like me saying bron is the best at beating 73 win teams or best in game 7's or best at coming from diwn 3-1 in the finals. I'm sure theres plenty more i coukd come up with.


None of the things I listed for Jordan were like that

You simply can't match the goat winning and goat skills listed in the OP

Lots of guys beat teams that won more than 64 games (the most that Jordan beat)... So anyone can use that argument over Jordan (Dwight or Baron Davis beat opponents with more wins than Jordan beat)... Otoh, the OP list are things exclusive to Jordan only (actual goat arguments)

[Manny98]

0-3 feet? LMFAO

anyway, Kyrie is a better finisher than LeBald
:facepalm

[Manny98]

None of the things I listed for Jordan were like that

You simply can't match the goat winning and goat skills listed in the OP

Lots of guys beat teams that won more than 64 games (the most that Jordan beat)... So anyone can use that argument over Jordan... The OP list are things exclusive to only Jordan

Bill Russell is the GOAT winner btw

[RRR3]

LeBron is the best finisher ever. At least for a perimeter player. Dude was shooting almost 80% from 0-3 feet some years. Absurd.
79.6% from 0-3 feet in 2013-14 :biggums: Literally better percentage than peak Shaq :bowdown:

[nineiron]

He's the best all around player, he doesn't need to be the best at a specific thing because he's so well rounded

LeBron has the best combination of scoring + playmaking + defense of any player ever

He's a one of a kind athlete

no he's not. KD is better. Kawhi is better. that's just this generation. there are PLENTY before this generation that are WAY better all around.

[Manny98]

Time to add to my ignore list, done with these stupid trolls who have nothing interesting to say:facepalm

[3ball]

no he's not. KD is better. Kawhi is better. that's just this generation. there are PLENTY before this generation that are WAY better all around.


Exactly

Lebron hasn't been all-defense in 8 years and is never in the top 5 scoring

Otoh, Jordan was top 5 dpoy and scoring champ from 88-98' - that's the top level possible (dpoy and scoring champ)..

that's the Giannis level, except with the goat jumper needed to win a title with true 2nd options (higher volume and contested jumpshooting required)

[Hey Yo]

Exactly

Lebron hasn't been all-defense in 8 years and is never in the top 5 scoring

Otoh, Jordan was top 5 dpoy and scoring champ from 88-98' - that's the top level possible (dpoy and scoring champ).. that's the Giannis level but with the goat jumper to win a title with true 2nd options
With 2 consecutive years of load management during that timeline.

[3ball]

Bill Russell is the GOAT winner btw


Not in 3-pointer basketball, which requires offensive dominance to be MVP-caliber

since the 3-point line started, all 40 league MVP's have been dominant offensive players, so we know russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in today's game

But back when there was zero spacing (no 3-point line), a one-dimensional defender like russell could win the most, especially with 10 HOF teammates

[Bronbron23]

None of the things I listed for Jordan were like that

You simply can't match the goat winning and goat skills listed in the OP

Lots of guys beat teams that won more than 64 games (the most that Jordan beat)... So anyone can use that argument over Jordan (Dwight or Baron Davis beat opponents with more wins than Jordan beat)... Otoh, the OP list are things exclusive to Jordan only (actual goat arguments)

Nah man i could up with shit for bron that's comparable to some of thise points and half of those points bron is still working on so we can't say at the moment.

Best ring count? Could say bron is goat at rings with multiple teams

Chips 6/6 is still on-going because bron isn't done so that's tbd.

Best scorer. Personally i say mj because i use average but bron has a good argument if you use totals.

Goat level shooter and athlete? You coukd easily say bron is the goat 3 point shooter and athlete.

Goat leaper one and 2 foot. That's debatable. Dr j and vince were both elite of 2.

Again mj has a lot but so does bron dude

[RRR3]

LeBron is the best finisher ever. At least for a perimeter player. Dude was shooting almost 80% from 0-3 feet some years. Absurd.
Snivelball avoiding this like the plague.

[3ball]

Best ring count? Could say bron is goat at rings with multiple teams





Lebron mostly lost with multiple teams

He mostly loses

It isn't impressive to team up with the best talent and mostly lose

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron mostly lost with multiple teams

He mostly loses

It isn't impressive to team up with the best talent and mostly lose
He mostly loses yet has won more rings than any player since he entered the league

[3ball]

Snivelball avoiding this like the plague.


Wilt and Shaq are clearly better finishers at the rim

to name a couple... Tons of guys are.. I'm not sure lebron finishes better than Giannis or Barkley.. heck, I'd like to see peak Kemp's at rim figures

Finally, Jordan can't get himself open at the rim like lebron can, but Jordan is a superior shot-maker at the rim against tall, contesting defenders... So it's too subjective

[Bronbron23]

Lebron mostly lost with multiple teams

He mostly loses

It isn't impressive to team up with the best talent and mostly lose

Well everyone mostly loses. Mj won 6 chips and played more than 12 years.

And i personally don't care if a team is put together by the gm or by the player. The teams that win are usually the best teams. Mj already had one of the best players so he didn't have to leave and team up.

[Airupthere]

he's the best at traveling and stiff arming to the rim

traveling
flopping
stiffarming
crabwalking

to be more complete

[RRR3]

Wilt and Shaq are clearly better finishers at the rim

to name a couple... Tons of guys are.. I'm not sure lebron finishes better than Giannis or Barkley.. heck, I'd like to see peak Kemp's at rim figures

Finally, Jordan can't get himself open at the rim like lebron can, but Jordan is a superior shot-maker at the rim against tall, contesting defenders... So it's too subjective
LeBron literally finished better than peak Shaq did in 2014, so you’re wrong as usual. Gianny still hasn’t had a season as high as 2013-2014 LeBron from 0-3 feet and he’s playing in an easier era. MJ shot a hideous 51.0% from 0-3 feet in 1996-97, he’s not even in the discussion :lol. Dude was a horrendous finisher, imagine barely hitting half your shots at the rim :roll:

[GrayGoat]

Why has op dedicated so much time to a player outside his top 10?

[3ball]

LeBron literally finished better than peak Shaq did in 2014, so you’re wrong as usual. Gianny still hasn’t had a season as high as 2013-2014 LeBron from 0-3 feet and he’s playing in an easier era. MJ shot a hideous 51.0% from 0-3 feet in 1996-97, he’s not even in the discussion :lol. Dude was a horrendous finisher, imagine barely hitting half your shots at the rim :roll:


Jordan averaged more points per possession and points per game, so his formula was best..

he also dipped to an abnormal 49 dunks in 97', but was back up to 90 in 98' (150-200 from 87-93').. so he always dunked more than lebron despite being shorter

And Lebron's at rim percentages are inflated just like his jumpshooting because he waits for open looks and defers the tougher, contested shots to teammates..

for example, he wanted tiny George Hill to finish amongst the trees in the 18' Finals at the end of Game 1 because lebron defers super-tough, contested shots - the contested shot statistics show this and the eye test did in Game 1 as well.. he's simply a bad contested shot maker and can't float through the air or do hang-time, dipsy do shots like MJ

[RRR3]

Jordan averaged more points per possession and points per game, so his formula was best..

he also dipped to an abnormal 49 dunks in 97', but was back up to 90 in 98' (150-200 from 87-93').. so he always dunked more than lebron despite being shorter

And Lebron's at rim percentages are inflated just like his jumpshooting because he waits for open looks and defers the tougher, contested shots to teammates..

for example, he wanted tiny George Hill to finish amongst the trees in the 18' Finals at the end of Game 1 because lebron defers super-tough, contested shots - the contested shot statistics show this and the eye test did in Game 1 as well.. he's simply a bad contested shot maker and can't float through the air or do hang-time, dipsy do shots like MJ
51% at the rim :roll: :roll: :roll:

MJ struggled to finish inside because he was a weak little jumpshooter. Meanwhile Bron shot a BEEFY 79.6% in 2014, besting even peak Shaq :bowdown:


79.6% vs. 51.0% :roll:

[8Ball]

Better basketball player than Jordan was.

Next question.

[RRR3]

Better basketball player than Jordan was.

Next question.
MJ struggled to make layups consistently and 3ball wants to tell us he was the GOAT finisher :yaohappy:

More Mikey mythology.

[3ball]

51% at the rim :roll: :roll: :roll:

MJ struggled to finish inside because he was a weak little jumpshooter. Meanwhile Bron shot a BEEFY 79.6% in 2014, besting even peak Shaq :bowdown:


79.6% vs. 51.0% :roll:


Jordan dunked more and got posterized bigs a lot more

And he was a better contested shot maker

[RRR3]

Jordan dunked more and got posterized bigs a lot more

And he was a better contested shot maker
He did not dunk more he could barely finish in traffic ffs :lol


51.0% at the rim :roll: :roll: :roll:

MJ was a G League level finisher :yaohappy:

[Airupthere]

Don't forget turnovers. At the end of the day, Lebron will hold the crown of most turnovers and finals loses.

[3ball]

He did not dunk more he could barely finish in traffic ffs :lol


51.0% at the rim :roll: :roll: :roll:

MJ was a G League level finisher :yaohappy:


Jordan dunked more in his prime and at 35 years old:


98' Jordan.... 89 dunks
20' Lebron.... 79 dunks


Lebron never even got 150 dunks in a season lol... Bum

[Axe]

He's the best all around player, he doesn't need to be the best at a specific thing because he's so well rounded

LeBron has the best combination of scoring + playmaking + defense of any player ever

He's a one of a kind athlete
Swiss army knife

[3ball]

Swiss army knife


An upper middle class pippen lol master of nothing

Btw, he can't play off-ball - so he can't do everything and can't fit with certain player types - so NOT a swiss knife. Ultimately, he isn't an assist target, so he creates less assists.. can't play off-guard/SG

[SouBeachTalents]

An upper middle class pippen lol master of nothing
https://i.postimg.cc/0jKSQL7M/Le-Bron-1st.png

Master of nothing

[Axe]

An upper middle class pippen lol master of nothing

Btw, he can't play off-ball - so he can't do everything and can't fit with certain player types - so NOT a swiss knife. Ultimately, he isn't an assist target, so he creates less assists.. can't play off-guard/SG
What a very

Sierra
Tango
Uniform
Papa
India
Delta

Take :facepalm

[Uncle Drew]

Just ban this clown already.

[3ball]

[QUOTE=3ball;14246933]An upper middle class pippen lol master of nothing/QUOTE]
https://i.postimg.cc/0jKSQL7M/Le-Bron-1st.png

Master of nothing


^^^ He needed an equal-scoring teammate to win

Equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so Lebron's stats were easier to attain and lack full integrity

Otoh, Jordan's 6 rings were won with 2nd options, so his stats and rings have ultimate integrity (6 one-man shows)

6 rings with 2nd options is unique to Jordan, whereas everyone else in history needed an equal-scoring teammate for half their rings (1b)

[8Ball]

Better basketball player than Jordan was.

Next question.

Quoted for truth.

Well said.

[AirBonner]

Quoted for truth.

Well said.
For reference purposes I’m quoting this

[RRR3]

Just ban this clown already.
Literally any other forum he’d be permabanned.

[3ball]

Literally any other forum he’d be permabanned.


6 rings with 2nd options is unique to Jordan, whereas everyone else in history needed an equal-scoring teammate for half their rings (1b)

Equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so everyone's stats are watered down compared to Jordan's

[SouBeachTalents]

6 rings with 2nd options is unique to Jordan, whereas everyone else in history needed an equal-scoring teammate for half their rings (1b)

Equal-scoring teammates attract equal defensive attention, so everyone's stats are watered down compared to Jordan's
Sounds like the NBA in the 90's, esp the late 90's

[3ball]

Sounds like the NBA in the 90's, esp the late 90's


Even if that were true (the 90's being watered down), this is offset by everyone else getting an equal scoring teammate to attract equal defensive attention for half their rings (1b's)

Rings and stats achieved with 1b's are easier than rings with 2nd options that average far less and put the defensive focus on 1 man.

Ultimately, only Jordan routinely won with 2nd options, so only he faced "1-man team" defensive coverage for his entire career

Kenny Smith talks about mj being the only 1-man show here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s

[Turbo Slayer]

1-9

[csh19792001]

Lebron isn't the best ever at anything you mentioned

Moses Malone rebounded better

Nash passed better

Beal shoots threes better

Chamberlain and Rodman both rebounded better than anyone in NBA History, by far. And Rodman, considering pace of play, might have even been the GOAT rebounder.

https://skepticalsports.com/the-case-for-dennis-rodman-part-14-c-rodman-v-ancient-history/

[Axe]

Chamberlain and Rodman both rebounded better than anyone in NBA History, by far. And Rodman, considering pace of play, might have even been the GOAT rebounder.

https://skepticalsports.com/the-case-for-dennis-rodman-part-14-c-rodman-v-ancient-history/
What makes rodman special tho is that for a power forward, he's a bit on the small side but he has the talent to outrebound anyone taller than him with consistency. I'm not sure if there's any other player who can do the same thing while having a similar size like he does. Maybe charles barkley but he's not as good as the worm in this aspect.

[csh19792001]

He's the best all around player, he doesn't need to be the best at a specific thing because he's so well rounded.

Greatest Clutch Players Ever, based on one measure. Game 7 Stats:

LeBron has played in 8 Game 7's in his career: 34.9/9.9/5.6

Jordan played in 3 Game 7's in his career: 33.7/7.7/7.0

Chamberlain 9 Game 7's in his career: 24.4/27.0/4.7

Russell 10 Game 7's in his career: 18.6/29.3/3.7 Russell's Celtics went 10-0 in Game 7's

Bird 8 Game 7's in his career: 27.0/9.3/7.8

Who would you take?

[csh19792001]

What makes rodman special tho is that for a power forward, he's a bit on the small side but he has the talent to outrebound anyone taller than him with consistency. I'm not sure if there's any other player who can do the same thing while having a similar size like he does. Maybe charles barkley but he's not as good as the worm in this aspect.

Total Rebound Percentage, Career, NBA History, All Forwards:

Rodman: 23.4%
Kevin Love: 19.5%
Barkley: 18.2%
Tyrone Hill: 18.0%
David Lee: 17.0%
Drew Gooden: 16.1%
Karl Malone: 16.0%

Honorable Mention: Larry Bird, ranked 12th all time among forwards, 14.5%.

Note: Rebound Percentage only began being tracked in 1969-1970.

[3ball]

Total Rebound Percentage, Career, NBA History, All Forwards:

Rodman: 23.4%
Kevin Love: 19.5%
Barkley: 18.2%
Tyrone Hill: 18.0%
David Lee: 17.0%
Drew Gooden: 16.1%
Karl Malone: 16.0%

Honorable Mention: Larry Bird, ranked 12th all time among forwards, 14.5%.

Note: Rebound Percentage only began being tracked in 1969-1970.


The biggest rim protector Jordan had was Dave Corzine's 0.8 blocks per game and Cartwright's 0.5...

Otoh, Zydrunas got 2.5 blocks, while Mosgov and Shaq got 1.5... guys like Birdman, McGee, and Chandler were also good shot-blockers.

So lebron always had much better rim protection than the goat small-baller Jordan, and Lebron also had more good rebounders as your stats show above.. People forget about Drew Gooden..