Who's to blame in the Bulls' losses or close series from 88-98'

[3ball]

1988 1st Round - 3-2 win (harper outplays pip)

Jordan... 45/5/5 on 56%
Pippen... 11/5/2 on 47%


1988 2nd Round - 1-4 loss (dumars outplays pip)

Jordan... 27/9/5 on 49%
Pippen..... 9/5/2 on 46%


1989 1st Round - 3-2 win (harper outplays pip)

Jordan... 40/6/8 on 52%
Pippen... 15/9/4 on 40%


1989 ECF - 2-4 loss (dumars outplays pip)

Jordan... 30/6/5 on 47%
Pippen... 10/7/5 on 40%


1990 ECF - 3-4 loss (dumars outplays him)

Jordan... 32/7/6 on 47%
Pippen... 17/6/4 on 43%


1992 ECSF - 4-3 win (X-man destroys Pip)

Jordan... 33/7/6 on 47%
Pippen... 17/7/5 on 40%


.
1993 Finals - 4-2 win (Dumas (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzIKvx9gmk&t=07m40s) coming out party)

Jordan... 41/9/6 on 55.8 TS
Pippen... 22/9/8 on 45.9 TS%


1994 2nd Round - 3-4 loss (Ewing outplays pip)

Pippen... 22/8/5 on 40%


1996 Finals - 4-2 win (schrempf outplays pip)

Jordan... 27/5/4 on 42%
Pippen... 15/8/5 on 34%


1997 Finals - 4-2 win (stockton outplays pip)

Jordan... 32/7/5 on 46%
Pippen... 20/8/3 on 42%


1998 Finals - 4-2 win

Jordan... 34/4/2 on 43%
Pippen... 16/7/5 on 41%


1991 Finals

* Pippen's only blameless run, except the critical Game 3 of the 1991 Finals - Pippen fouled out on Vlade and gave the Lakers a 2 point lead at the end of regulation - but MJ hit the game-tyer and dominate OT to get the 2-1 lead.

[Smoke117]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012070239000114.jpeg

[LAmbruh]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2012070239000114.jpeg

[8Ball]

Jordan Ball is to blame.

Racking up stats and ball hogging while rest of team suffers.

Need Pippen to teach him 3 peat chemistry.

[3ball]

Jordan Ball is to blame.

Need Pippen to teach him 3 peat chemistry.

Jordan-ball = Four #1 offenses and three top 10 all-time offenses (the most ever) = juggernaut teams with minimal offensive help

[Axe]

Mj and doug collins because they never got it right

[Bronbron23]

1988 1st Round - 3-2 win (harper outplays pip)

Jordan... 45/5/5 on 56%
Pippen... 11/5/2 on 47%


1988 2nd Round - 1-4 loss (dumars outplays pip)

Jordan... 27/9/5 on 49%
Pippen..... 9/5/2 on 46%


1989 1st Round - 3-2 win (harper outplays pip)

Jordan... 40/6/8 on 52%
Pippen... 15/9/4 on 40%


1989 ECF - 2-4 loss (dumars outplays pip)

Jordan... 30/6/5 on 47%
Pippen... 10/7/5 on 40%


1990 ECF - 3-4 loss (dumars outplays him)

Jordan... 32/7/6 on 47%
Pippen... 17/6/4 on 43%


1992 ECSF - 4-3 win (X-man destroys Pip)

Jordan... 33/7/6 on 47%
Pippen... 17/7/5 on 40%


.
1993 Finals - 4-2 win (Dumas (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HyzIKvx9gmk&t=07m40s) coming out party)

Jordan... 41/9/6 on 55.8 TS
Pippen... 22/9/8 on 45.9 TS%


1994 2nd Round - 3-4 loss (Ewing outplays pip)

Pippen... 22/8/5 on 40%


1996 Finals - 4-2 win (schrempf outplays pip)

Jordan... 27/5/4 on 42%
Pippen... 15/8/5 on 34%


1997 Finals - 4-2 win (stockton outplays pip)

Jordan... 32/7/5 on 46%
Pippen... 20/8/3 on 42%


1998 Finals - 4-2 win

Jordan... 34/4/2 on 43%
Pippen... 16/7/5 on 41%


1991 Finals

* Pippen's only blameless run, except the critical Game 3 of the 1991 Finals - Pippen fouled out on Vlade and gave the Lakers a 2 point lead at the end of regulation - but MJ hit the game-tyer and dominate OT to get the 2-1 lead.

Blame always goes to the leader and coach. Yeah pip was trash but maybe phil could of done a better job at putting him into a position to succeed and maybe mj as a leader could of done more to motivate him or get him involved.

[AirBonner]

Did MJ ever win sportsperson of the year?

[TheCorporation]

https://i.postimg.cc/MG37HnV1/Net-Net-Net6over23.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/52pLFfYT/Ker_levell.jpg


https://i.postimg.cc/cHzgkscx/Mike-Breen-Bang.jpg

[highwhey]

definitely mj's fault

[TheGoatest]

I'll blame the guy who couldn't make it to the 2nd round without the other guy.

[AussieSteve]

When LeBron averaged 39ppg against Orlando in 2009, I seem to recall OP blaming him for the loss. So I figure the series losses that the bulls had c.1985-1990 must be MJs fault by OPs own logic.

[SouBeachTalents]

When LeBron averaged 39ppg against Orlando in 2009, I seem to recall OP blaming him for the loss. So I figure the series losses that the bulls had c.1985-1990 must be MJs fault by OPs own logic.
Absolutely no rebuttal he can make without completely contradicting himself :oldlol:

[8Ball]

When LeBron averaged 39ppg against Orlando in 2009, I seem to recall OP blaming him for the loss. So I figure the series losses that the bulls had c.1985-1990 must be MJs fault by OPs own logic.

Yup.

MJ was way too ball dominant and ball hogging according to 3ball.

[dankok8]

3ball is about as biased as you guys and makes ridiculous arguments.

However Jordan hasn't had one bad series the likes of several which Lebron had. That can't be denied regardless of who you think is GOAT.

[3ball]

When LeBron averaged 39ppg against Orlando in 2009, I seem to recall OP blaming him for the loss. So I figure the series losses that the bulls had c.1985-1990 must be MJs fault by OPs own logic.

Lebron was the favorite with the better team

That's the difference

Lebron's team underperformed (expected to win) and Jordan's didn't underperform (expected to lose)

Dwight was actually a top 5 underdog ever to win a playoff series when he beat lebron

[red1]

100% jordan's fault.


could've won earlier if he gave pippen the reins. we all saw what pip did without mike in '94.

[1987_Lakers]

100% jordan's fault.


could've won earlier if he gave pippen the reins. we all saw what pip did without mike in '94.

yup

[3ball]

3ball is about as biased as you guys and makes ridiculous arguments.

However Jordan hasn't had one bad series the likes of several which Lebron had. That can't be denied regardless of who you think is GOAT.


Jordan is the only guy where every series shows a big statistical gap over his sidekick - no other player can list a bunch of playoff runs and series without a sidekick matching or exceeding them statistically

Every other player in league history has teammates with equal or greater stats for entire playoff runs and many individual series - only Jordan had to carry the statistical load for EVERY series and run

[red1]

yup

pippen's bulls were a 55-win, playoff-bound team without mike



thats the definition of a stacked team :roll:

[3ball]

pippen's bulls were a 55-win, playoff-bound team without mike



thats the definition of a stacked team :roll:

I guarantee that if we look back at your post history, most 55-win teams you do NOT call stacked

Everyone wins 55 games.... without 3-peat system and a strategic edge on the entire league (like 16' warriors)

[red1]

I guarantee that if we look back at your post history, most 55-win teams you do NOT call stacked

Everyone wins 55 games

say what? :oldlol:


how many teams win 55-games when they lose their star player - the best player in the league?


dude they were in a competitive 7-game series in the 2nd round - pippen's bulls were on the verge of being an eastern conference FINALS team without mike :roll: :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

I guarantee that if we look back at your post history, most 55-win teams you do NOT call stacked

Everyone wins 55 games.... without 3-peat system and a strategic edge on the entire league (like 16' warriors)
Everyone except Jordan's teams without Pippen, couldn't even do it once in 5 seasons :(

[MadDog]

Don't get why OP hates on Pippen. :confusedshrug: Yeah he's overrated when morons throw around "55 without Jordan" or "1-9" but beyond that Pippen was a solid star. And top10 throughout the 90s.

[8Ball]

100% jordan's fault.


could've won earlier if he gave pippen the reins. we all saw what pip did without mike in '94.

Pippen created the 3 peat chemistry.

And held onto that 3 peat chemistry for Jordan to come back to.

Was the work horse for that team.

[RRR3]

Durrr Hyuk Dee durrrrr....Lebron was the favorite with the better team

That's the durrrrr duhhhh difference

Durrrr uhhh durrrrr Lebron's team underperformed (expected to win) and Jordan's didn't underperform (expected to lose)

Durrrr Hyuk Hyuk yuk durrrr Dwight was actually a top 5 underdog ever to win a playoff series when he beat lebron
:facepalm

It’s not LeBron’s fault his team underperformed if he didn’t you absolute bellend. How do you still not get that team literally was only good because of LeBron? :oldlol: You have severe brain damage.

[8Ball]

I guarantee that if we look back at your post history, most 55-win teams you do NOT call stacked

Everyone wins 55 games.... without 3-peat system and a strategic edge on the entire league (like 16' warriors)

Jordan never wins 55 games without Pippen.

Ever.

Shackled.

[Marchesk]

3ball is about as biased as you guys and makes ridiculous arguments.

However Jordan hasn't had one bad series the likes of several which Lebron had. That can't be denied regardless of who you think is GOAT.


https://i.postimg.cc/mkV2DcgJ/jason-terry-airplane.jpg

[HBK_Kliq_2]

https://i.postimg.cc/mkV2DcgJ/jason-terry-airplane.jpg

End of thread. Jordan was never outscored in a series by John Starks. I would say Starks was the Jason Terry of the 90s. So it would be like Starks outscoring Jordan in a series hahahah Jordan would retire after that.

[3ball]

: facepalm'

[3ball]

.
2014 ECF

Lebron... 22.8.. 6.3.. 5.5.. 3.3 tov.. 55.9%
Wade..... 19.8.. 4.3.. 4.7.. 2.5 tov.. 54.5%


2011 PLAYOFFS

Wade...... higher PPG/BPG/OREB/PER/BPM/VORP/WS
Lebron..... lower PPG/BPG/OREB/PER/BPM/VORP/WS


2020 PLAYOFFS

Davis...... higher PPG/BPG/OREB/WS/TS
Lebron..... lower PPG/BPG/OREB/WS/TS


2016 PLAYOFFS

Kyrie...'..... 25.2 ppg
Lebron..... 26.3 ppg


^^^ lebron and everyone in history had playoff runs with sidekicks getting comparable stats - only Jordan never had a statistical equal or even comparable - he doesn't have a single series with a comparable sidekick, let alone full playoff runs like everyone else.. this career-long, 1-man statistical dynamic is unique to the goat






However Jordan hasn't had one bad series the likes of several which Lebron had.




Lebron's bad series matter, but so does having teammates match or exceed him statistically (above)

only Jordan never had a statistical equal or even comparable - he doesn't have a single series with an equal, let alone full playoff runs like everyone else - MJ's one-man show was his original claim to fame that distinguished him from Bird/Magic/Isiah, and now today's players as well

So everyone in history had teammates that were 1a/1b scenarios... Except the goat - only the goat went his entire career with a "true" 2nd option (that was far lower statistically, aka far less PPG, PER, BPM, WS, VORP and lower career apg)





3ball is about as biased as you guys and makes ridiculous arguments.



You've never specified any arguments that you thought were ridiculous.. if they're "ridiculous", it should be easy to name a couple.. go ahead, I'm curious.. what's "ridiculous"

Is it ridiculous to say that jordan's 30-40 win teams faced the 8 vs 1 matchup against champs, while lebron's 30-40 win teams lucked out as 9 seeds, thereby avoiding the 04/05 Pistons and 19' Warriors?.. lebron only had developed, high seeds in the playoffs and wasn't forced to carry his worst teams like mj was.. he also played in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning (01', 02', 03', 07', 09'), while the 80's East required a super-team with many HOF's to win it...

Is that "ridiculous"?... :whatever:

[dankok8]

.
2014 ECF

Lebron... 22.8.. 6.3.. 5.5.. 3.3 tov.. 55.9%
Wade..... 19.8.. 4.3.. 4.7.. 2.5 tov.. 54.5%


2011 PLAYOFFS

Wade...... higher PPG/BPG/OREB/PER/BPM/VORP/WS
Lebron..... lower PPG/BPG/OREB/PER/BPM/VORP/WS


2020 PLAYOFFS

Davis...... higher PPG/BPG/OREB/WS/TS
Lebron..... lower PPG/BPG/OREB/WS/TS


2016 PLAYOFFS

Kyrie...'..... 25.2 ppg
Lebron..... 26.3 ppg


^^^ lebron and everyone in history had playoff runs with sidekicks getting comparable stats - only Jordan never had a statistical equal or even comparable - he doesn't have a single series with a comparable sidekick, let alone full playoff runs like everyone else.. this career-long, 1-man statistical dynamic is unique to the goat





Lebron's bad series matter, but so does having teammates match or exceed him statistically (above)

only Jordan never had a statistical equal or even comparable - he doesn't have a single series with an equal, let alone full playoff runs like everyone else - MJ's one-man show was his original claim to fame that distinguished him from Bird/Magic/Isiah, and now today's players as well

So everyone in history had teammates that were 1a/1b scenarios... Except the goat - only the goat went his entire career with a "true" 2nd option (that was far lower statistically, aka far less PPG, PER, BPM, WS, VORP and lower career apg)



You've never specified any arguments that you thought were ridiculous.. if they're "ridiculous", it should be easy to name a couple.. go ahead, I'm curious.. what's "ridiculous"

Is it ridiculous to say that jordan's 30-40 win teams faced the 8 vs 1 matchup against champs, while lebron's 30-40 win teams lucked out as 9 seeds, thereby avoiding the 04/05 Pistons and 19' Warriors?.. lebron only had developed, high seeds in the playoffs and wasn't forced to carry his worst teams like mj was.. he also played in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning, while the 80's East required a super-team with many HOF's to win it...

Is that "ridiculous"?... :whatever:

The point about 30-40 wins teams are valid but I don't know what it proves. You're feeding the trolls by having this argument in the first place. Everyone knows losing the 1st round is better than missing the playoffs and that losing in the finals is better than losing before. Just like anyone who blames Jordan for losing to the Celtics in '86 and '87 doesn't warrant a response.

The ridiculous arguments you're making are for instance calling Pippen overrated. You don't need to degrade Pippen to elevate MJ. Pippen was a great basketball player and top 35 ever. So what? Everyone needs great casts to win. These arguments lead absolutely nowhere and you're exposed for blatantly trashing a legend of the game. You also make obscure arguments saying that Lebron's ball-hogging style doesn't work. Clearly it works. He won 4 rings and will probably win more.

You're actually smarter than a lot of posters here but lose credibility making those kind of arguments. Focus on basketball including topics not related to Jordan and Lebron. And try to be objective.

Just my two cents.

[Smoke117]

100% jordan's fault.


could've won earlier if he gave pippen the reins. we all saw what pip did without mike in '94.


This. Numbers don’t lie.

1-9, 3/18.

[SouBeachTalents]

Focus on basketball including topics not related to Jordan and Lebron. And try to be objective.
I'm sure after 7 years and 30,000 posts 3ball will definitely heed this advice

[Smoke117]

I'm sure after 7 years and 30,000 posts 3ball will definitely heed this advice

Dank must be one of the few left who doesn't just skim or skip right through his posts altogether these days.

[8Ball]

.
2014 ECF

Lebron... 22.8.. 6.3.. 5.5.. 3.3 tov.. 55.9%
Wade..... 19.8.. 4.3.. 4.7.. 2.5 tov.. 54.5%


2011 PLAYOFFS

Wade...... higher PPG/BPG/OREB/PER/BPM/VORP/WS
Lebron..... lower PPG/BPG/OREB/PER/BPM/VORP/WS


2020 PLAYOFFS

Davis...... higher PPG/BPG/OREB/WS/TS
Lebron..... lower PPG/BPG/OREB/WS/TS


2016 PLAYOFFS

Kyrie...'..... 25.2 ppg
Lebron..... 26.3 ppg


^^^ lebron and everyone in history had playoff runs with sidekicks getting comparable stats - only Jordan never had a statistical equal or even comparable - he doesn't have a single series with a comparable sidekick, let alone full playoff runs like everyone else.. this career-long, 1-man statistical dynamic is unique to the goat





Lebron's bad series matter, but so does having teammates match or exceed him statistically (above)

only Jordan never had a statistical equal or even comparable - he doesn't have a single series with an equal, let alone full playoff runs like everyone else - MJ's one-man show was his original claim to fame that distinguished him from Bird/Magic/Isiah, and now today's players as well

So everyone in history had teammates that were 1a/1b scenarios... Except the goat - only the goat went his entire career with a "true" 2nd option (that was far lower statistically, aka far less PPG, PER, BPM, WS, VORP and lower career apg)



You've never specified any arguments that you thought were ridiculous.. if they're "ridiculous", it should be easy to name a couple.. go ahead, I'm curious.. what's "ridiculous"

Is it ridiculous to say that jordan's 30-40 win teams faced the 8 vs 1 matchup against champs, while lebron's 30-40 win teams lucked out as 9 seeds, thereby avoiding the 04/05 Pistons and 19' Warriors?.. lebron only had developed, high seeds in the playoffs and wasn't forced to carry his worst teams like mj was.. he also played in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning (01', 02', 03', 07', 09'), while the 80's East required a super-team with many HOF's to win it...

Is that "ridiculous"?... :whatever:

Jordan NEVER won 55 games without Pippen.

Jordan-Ball is a sub 50 win team. Lots of losses. 1-9 in the playoffs. No 3 peat chemistry.

At least LeBron ball without a number 2 can win 66 games alone.

[red1]

.
2014 ECF

Lebron... 22.8.. 6.3.. 5.5.. 3.3 tov.. 55.9%
Wade..... 19.8.. 4.3.. 4.7.. 2.5 tov.. 54.5%


2011 PLAYOFFS

Wade...... higher PPG/BPG/OREB/PER/BPM/VORP/WS
Lebron..... lower PPG/BPG/OREB/PER/BPM/VORP/WS


2020 PLAYOFFS

Davis...... higher PPG/BPG/OREB/WS/TS
Lebron..... lower PPG/BPG/OREB/WS/TS


2016 PLAYOFFS

Kyrie...'..... 25.2 ppg
Lebron..... 26.3 ppg


^^^ lebron and everyone in history had playoff runs with sidekicks getting comparable stats - only Jordan never had a statistical equal or even comparable - he doesn't have a single series with a comparable sidekick, let alone full playoff runs like everyone else.. this career-long, 1-man statistical dynamic is unique to the goat





Lebron's bad series matter, but so does having teammates match or exceed him statistically (above)

only Jordan never had a statistical equal or even comparable - he doesn't have a single series with an equal, let alone full playoff runs like everyone else - MJ's one-man show was his original claim to fame that distinguished him from Bird/Magic/Isiah, and now today's players as well

So everyone in history had teammates that were 1a/1b scenarios... Except the goat - only the goat went his entire career with a "true" 2nd option (that was far lower statistically, aka far less PPG, PER, BPM, WS, VORP and lower career apg)



You've never specified any arguments that you thought were ridiculous.. if they're "ridiculous", it should be easy to name a couple.. go ahead, I'm curious.. what's "ridiculous"

Is it ridiculous to say that jordan's 30-40 win teams faced the 8 vs 1 matchup against champs, while lebron's 30-40 win teams lucked out as 9 seeds, thereby avoiding the 04/05 Pistons and 19' Warriors?.. lebron only had developed, high seeds in the playoffs and wasn't forced to carry his worst teams like mj was.. he also played in a conference that 1-star teams were routinely winning (01', 02', 03', 07', 09'), while the 80's East required a super-team with many HOF's to win it...

Is that "ridiculous"?... :whatever:

you've spammed this post dozens of times. its been thoroughly debunked many times.







you still haven't given a single plausible explanation for why madonna preferred pippen.

[8Ball]

you've spammed this post dozens of times. its been thoroughly debunked many times.







you still haven't given a single plausible explanation for why madonna preferred pippen.

I have one.

Madonna saw Pippen win 55 games on his own.

Jordan could never win 55 games on his own.

[SouBeachTalents]

you've spammed this post dozens of times. its been thoroughly debunked many times.







you still haven't given a single plausible explanation for why madonna preferred pippen.
All that means is Pippen was HUGE. Not necessarily MJ isn't packing. She was content with Pippen. LMAO @ these clowns straight reaching.

[RRR3]

Dank is so far up MJ’s ass he thinks the people replying to 3ball are the “trolls”. Complete brain worms.

[Axe]

Op must be a total masochist for creating threads like this that makes him beg for sorry attention. Every response he makes would just cause slugfest.

[3ball]

losing in the finals is better than losing before.



Not when you manufacture runs by forming a big 3 super-team in a conference that 1-star teams were winning (01', 02', 03', 07', 09') and STILL win (19', 20') - only lebron's collusions interrupted the trend of 1-star teams winning the conference..

So who cares about a half dozen silver medals that were manufactured?.. lol, at least manufacture the gold if you're gonna manufacture something lol





The point about 30-40 wins teams are valid but I don't know what it proves.




In order to claim that Jordan was inferior at raising bum teams, people compare Jordan's 8 seeds in a super-team conference, to lebron's high seeds when 1 star was required to win it (00's East).

You can't compare low seeds to high seeds and claim that lebron carried bum teams better.. people simply forget about Lebron's 04/05/19 teams, which were lottery seeds with 30-40 wins like the 1-9 teams (85-87').





The point about 30-40 wins teams are valid but I don't know what it proves.




jordan's 30-40 win teams were simply unlucky to face the 8 vs 1 matchup against champs, while lebron's 30-40 win teams lucked out as 9 seeds, thereby avoiding 1-9 against the 04/05 Pistons and 19' Warriors.. lebron only had developed high seeds with 50+ wins in the playoffs and wasn't forced to carry his 30-40 win teams like mj was..

It would've been fun to see lebron carry his 30-40 win teams from 04/05/19 against the champs, since his high seeds were destroyed more than anyone's ever, aka 3-16 with 2 seeds in 07', 11', 14', 17' (all historic losses), and the only player upset twice in a row with 60-win, 1 seeds.. ever... so yeah, lebron's 8 seeds in 04/05/19 would've gotten smashed by the champs and it's good we didn't see it, especially since young lebron gets 22 on 35% against championship comp vs 44 on 50% for mj.

People don't blame lebron when he loses to 1-star teams as the heavy favorite (09', 11'), or by record amount with championship 2 seeds, so they wouldn't blame him when he loses with 8 seeds like Jordan.... :lolol:

[3ball]

Pippen is top 35 ever.





Career Rankings


PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185


OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107


WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129


Ortg:

Horace Grant.....4 :
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250


Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250


True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250
Horace Grant......NR top 250


BPM:

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176


Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) correlate closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent.

And even with the reworked BPM formula that rewards steals artists like Stockton on good defensive teams (below), Pippen wouldn't be a top-three BPM player compared to Lebron's teammates - Pippen has slightly better BPM than Kevin Love.


What players were most impacted by the changes?

Including playoffs, only one player saw his career BPM change by 3.0 or more. That'd be the aforementioned Stockton, who was 3.5 under the old system and is now 6.7. He's aided by the changes in the way the assist and rebound terms interact. Further, the old system said "no rebounds = bad defender." BPM 2.0 says "elite steals, good defensive teams = good defender."


Heck, Pippen's peak was 22/7/5 - that's a weak peak that anyone like Larry Hughes can achieve - the opponent never has to gameplan for you if that's all you can do






Everyone needs great casts to win.




You saw the poor stats in the OP - having pippen wasn't "stacking the deck", whereas AD never has ugly statistical deficits like that... It's completely the opposite with AD and he often exceeds lebron and the whole league (playoff scoring leader).

In Miami, lebron teaming up with 2 stars was celebrated as "not 6, not 7" stacking the deck... he publicly-celebrated his Heat deck-stack.

And do you realize that curry achieved peak Jordan stats in 2016 with unanimous MVP?... this matters because it's impossible to lose if your 2nd option takes out the opponent's "Jordan", like Kyrie did Curry - so lebron should be knocked for needing 7 games, especially after wetting the bed in the first 4 (24 and 6 TO's)...

Ultimately, who cares about KD getting Curry as a sidekick when lebron had the guy that destroyed Curry???... Again - lebron had a stacked deck that was favored entering the 15' and 16' seasons (due to talent acquisition, not organic development






Lebron's ball-hogging style works. He won 4 rings and will probably win more.



So why does he have a lottery record against organic ball movement teams (Mavs/Spurs/Warriors)??..

It's because he can't play organic ball movement himself - his skillset prevents organic ball movement and player development by imposing spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning, not brand or player development)..

His inability to develop organic brand and player development is why he was a 1-trick pony before the "decision" (1 Finals run like AI/Kidd/Dwight) - but the decision formed a big 3 super-team in a conference that 1-star teams were winning.. aka manufactured/distorted resume, so he gets the default "dr. j" spot in my rankings.. ditto magic, whose ball-dominance needed to hold out for Kareem, then went only 5-4 in the Finals

Now for the statistical backup - despite the "decision" to acquire goat offensive help, he has zero #1 offenses in 17 years and fields low assist teams. He can't develop brand and win organically because because his skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall brand and young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (talent-based winning, team-hopping)....

[8Ball]

3ball name me one team Jordan led to more than 55 wins WITHOUT Pippen on the squad.

Pippen did it without Jordan.

[3ball]

3ball name me one team Jordan led to more than 55 wins WITHOUT Pippen on the squad.

Pippen did it without Jordan.

everyone wins 55 like Marc gasol in memphis and without the 3-peat system and strategic advantage that the bulls had - but they were still a 2nd round team, whereas Jordan almost made the Finals with no system or help in 89'

[3ball]

Career Rankings


PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185


OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107


WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129


Ortg:

Horace Grant.....4 :
Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250


Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250


True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250
Horace Grant......NR top 250


BPM:

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176




And Pippen's peak VORP season ranks 96th all-time, and behind Love, Wade or AD's peak VORP

VORP is an accumulation stats so it's important to look at the best VORP seasons

[SouBeachTalents]

VORP is an accumulation stats so it's important to look at the best VORP seasons
Yet another measure that has LeBron top 2 :applause:

[3ball]

Yet another measure that has LeBron top 2 :applause:

And his teammates were all higher than Pip

Based on PER/VORP/BPM/WS/PPG/efficiency, pippen is a Love/Bosh caliber player, and way below Wade or AD and even Kyrie.... so mj won 6 with Bosh

[8Ball]

everyone wins 55 like Marc gasol in memphis and without the 3-peat system and strategic advantage that the bulls had - but they were still a 2nd round team, whereas Jordan almost made the Finals with no system or help in 89'

Then why didn't Jordan do it without Pippen.

He had multiple seasons to do so.

[TheCorporation]

Jordan NEVER won 55 games without Pippen.

Jordan-Ball is a sub 50 win team. Lots of losses. 1-9 in the playoffs. No 3 peat chemistry.

At least LeBron ball without a number 2 can win 66 games alone.

SHUT

:dancin

IT

:hammertime:

DOWN

:lebronamazed:

[3ball]

Then why didn't Jordan do it without Pippen.

He had multiple seasons to do so.

He had lebron's cast from 04/05/19 except without the East all-star center

[8Ball]

3 universal individual player truths about Jordan:

- Never won 55 games without Pippen + PJ.
- 1-9 without Pippen + PJ.
- Jordan Ball hog basketball racks up a lot of stats but only makes the 8 seed and 1st round exit (without Pippen + PJ).

All these truths revolve around Pippen + PJ.

LeBron was never shackled to 2 humans for any multiple record achievement.

[AirBonner]

3 universal individual player truths about Jordan:

- Never won 55 games without Pippen + PJ.
- 1-9 without Pippen + PJ.
- Jordan Ball hog basketball racks up a lot of stats but only makes the 8 seed and 1st round exit (without Pippen + PJ).

All these truths revolve around Pippen + PJ.

LeBron was never shackled to 2 humans for any multiple record achievement.

Op logged off after this post

[8Ball]

Could I dare say Jordan-Ball is a lot like Westbrook-Ball?

Never reaching 55 wins, swept in the 1st round, racks up a lot of stats. Dear lord.

[97 bulls]

And Pippen's peak VORP season ranks 96th all-time, and behind Love, Wade or AD's peak VORP

VORP is an accumulation stats so it's important to look at the best VORP seasons

Had Pippen played in this era, his numbers would be off the charts. Easily a 24/9/8 player. I keep telling you why you cant compare stats across eras.

Not to mention that Pippen does better than the guys you mentioned where it counts most. WINS!!!! None of the guys you listed have an MVP or finished higher than Pip. Or even a DPOY award finish higher than Pip.

[Axe]

Had Pippen played in this era, his numbers would be off the charts. Easily a 24/9/8 player. I keep telling you why you cant compare stats across eras.

Not to mention that Pippen does better than the guys you mentioned where it counts most. WINS!!!! None of the guys you listed have an MVP or finished higher than Pip. Or even a DPOY award finish higher than Pip.
He'll have a hard time comprehending this post

[AirBonner]

Had Pippen played in this era, his numbers would be off the charts. Easily a 24/9/8 player. I keep telling you why you cant compare stats across eras.

Not to mention that Pippen does better than the guys you mentioned where it counts most. WINS!!!! None of the guys you listed have an MVP or finished higher than Pip. Or even a DPOY award finish higher than Pip.

Thank you for shedding light on Pippen. I and most people on this board believe MJ has an edge on LeBron (slight that it is) but anything that causes 3ball to lose sleep we all can get behind

[TheGoatest]

say what? :oldlol:


how many teams win 55-games when they lose their star player - the best player in the league?


Seriously, is there a single case of this in history? The Sixers won 55 games in 68-69 after they lost Wilt, but even that was a 7 win drop from their 62 win season the previous year, whereas the 93-94 Bulls only dropped 2 wins from 92-93.

Here are some records for teams who suddenly found themselves without their star, all-time great player in his prime:

Cavs in 18-19 after LeBron left: 19-63
Thunder in 16-17 after Durant left: 47-35
Heat in 14-15 after LeBron left: 37-45
Cavs in 10-11 after LeBron left: 19-63
Timberwolves in 07-08 after Garnett left: 22-60
Lakers in 04-05 after Shaq left: 34-48
Magic in 96-97 after Shaq left: 45-37
Spurs in 96-97 when Robinson got injured early in the season: 20-62
Sixers in 92-93 after Barkley left: 26-56
Lakers in 91-92 after Magic was forced to retire: 43-39
Celtics in 88-89 when Bird got injured early in the season: 42-40
Rockets in 82-83 after Moses Malone left: 14-68

Meanwhile the 93-94 Bulls after Jordan retired: 55-27
7 Bulls players had career high in ppg that particular season.
2 Bulls players were selected to the all-star team for the first team that particular season.
Scottie Pippen had clearly his best season that particular season and was an MVP candidate. His great play without Jordan holding him back even extended to the all-star game, where he won all-star game MVP.

[Axe]

An aging spurs team in 16-17 won a good amount of games despite losing duncan to retirement

[TheGoatest]

An aging spurs team in 16-17 won a good amount of games despite losing duncan to retirement

The thing that proves how great the 93-94 Bulls were is that they suddenly found themselves without their star player who was still in his prime, not one was fading away and was well into his 30s.
And yet despite this they still won 55 games.

[Axe]

The thing that proves how great the 93-94 Bulls were is that they suddenly found themselves without their star player who was still in his prime, not one was fading away and was well into his 30s.
And yet despite this they still won 55 games.
Yep, 3ball is dumb for not realizing that. It becomes even more apparent with his preference for doug collins over phil jackson.

[3ball]

Yep, 3ball is dumb for not realizing that. It becomes even more apparent with his preference for doug collins over phil jackson.

You're dumb for not realizing that the 94' bulls had a rebounder at 2nd option and weren't talented without MJ (korver all-stars) thereby winning off 3-peat strategy and system, confidence - we saw in 95' after the playoffs exposed them and pippen - the Bulls were barely .500

[97 bulls]

You're dumb for not realizing that the 94' bulls had a rebounder at 2nd option and weren't talented without MJ (korver all-stars) thereby winning off 3-peat strategy and system, confidence - we saw in 95' after the playoffs exposed them and pippen - the Bulls were barely .500

Again, stop with the intellectual dishonesty bro. Kerr wasn't on the 1st 3pt Bulls. Neither were Longley, Myers, Wennington, Kukoc, Buechler, etc. These were the main guys outside of Grant, Armstrong and Pip. That cant credit their success to "3pt chemistry" . Again. Williams, King, Jordan, Tucker, were gone. Cartwright and Paxson didnt play nearly as much. The 94 Bulls resembled the 3nd 3pt team more than the 1st 3pt team.

As far as 95, what do you expect? The fact that the Bulls were a sixth seed and the number 2 defense in the league even though they lost they 1st and 3rd best players was exceptional. You cant argue with results.

[3ball]

Again, stop with the intellectual dishonesty bro. Kerr wasn't on the 1st 3pt Bulls. Neither were Longley, Myers, Wennington, Kukoc, Buechler, etc. These were the main guys outside of Grant, Armstrong and Pip. That cant credit their success to "3pt chemistry" . Again. Williams, King, Jordan, Tucker, were gone. Cartwright and Paxson didnt play nearly as much. The 94 Bulls resembled the 3nd 3pt team more than the 1st 3pt team.

As far as 95, what do you expect? The fact that the Bulls were a sixth seed and the number 2 defense in the league even though they lost they 1st and 3rd best players was exceptional. You cant argue with results.

Kerr was waived by the Magic before joining the bulls and everyone else you named are role players that everyone has

Bulls won via system, not talent.. pippen was horrible as the stats show.. Ewing killed him and brand wasn't enough to save him

[red1]

pippen won 55 games without jordan.



jordan never won 55 games without pippen.




case closed. checkmate 3ball. I have you in a headlock and no matter how many times you tap I'm only going to tighten the headlock.

[8Ball]

red1 these are the universal truths about Jordan:

- Never won 55 games without Pippen + PJ.
- 1-9 without Pippen + PJ.
- Jordan Ball hog basketball racks up a lot of stats but only makes the 8 seed and 1st round exit (without Pippen + PJ).

[dankok8]

Let's look at the Bulls W-L records in games Pippen missed and Jordan missed during the 90's when Pippen was an All-Star so from 89-90 to 97-98. Neither ever missed a playoff game so this data is for regular season only.

Pippen played all 82 games in 89-90, 90-91, 91-92 and 96-97 so there is no data without Pippen for those years.

Jordan/No Pippen

92-93: 1-0
95-96: 5-0
97-98: 26-12

Overall: 32-12 (on pace for 60 wins)

Jordan played all 82 games in 89-90, 90-91, 95-96, 96-97 and 97-98 so there is no data without Jordan in those years.

Pippen/No Jordan

91-92: 0-2
92-93: 1-3
93-94: 51-21 (Pippen missed 10 games and Bulls went 4-6)
94-95: 33-29 (Pippen missed 3 games before MJ came back and Bulls went 1-2)

Overall: 85-55 (on pace for 50 wins)



We also have Plus Minus and ON/OFF data for the 96-97 and 97-98 seasons for what it's worth. I'm not a huge fan of Plus Minus and ON/OFF but some people like it.

Total Plus Minus

96-97 Season: Pippen +807 Jordan +818
97 Postseason: Pippen +122 Jordan +158
97-98 Season: Pippen +324 Jordan +598
98 Postseason: Pippen +117 Jordan +136

ON-OFF

96-97 Season: Pippen +8.1 Jordan +7.9
97 Postseason: Pippen +13.5 Jordan +23.6
97-98 Season: Pippen +3.3 Jordan +6.7
98 Postseason: Pippen -1.4 Jordan +13.1

[8Ball]

Don't forget Phil Jackson in these discussions.

Jordan was shackled to more than just 1 person. Shackled to 2.

[Baller789]

Don't forget Phil Jackson in these discussions.

Jordan was shackled to more than just 1 person. Shackled to 2.

How many assist titles does Lebron have?

[8Ball]

repeating the same sh!t over and over doesn't make you right or look bright.



How many assist titles does Lebron have?


So how many assist titles does Lebron have low iq Gayball?


So how many assist titles does Lebron have gayball?


Yep. So how many?


A thread about Bull's losses from 88-98 has Baller789 coming out asking about LeBron assist titles. :roll:

I keep taking a deep long shit down Baller789's mouth. Got this dog on a leash. :lol


Wait wait wait.....

"How many assist titles does Lebron have?" :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

A thread about Bull's losses from 88-98 has Baller789 coming out asking about LeBron assist titles. :roll:

I keep taking a deep long shit down Baller789's mouth. Got this dog on a leash. :lol


Wait wait wait.....

"How many assist titles does Lebron have?" :roll:
The fck does that even mean :lol What point is he trying to make

[8Ball]

I've been dumpstering his arguments for a few weeks now. Broke him mentally so all he does is follow me around asking the same question. Like a dog following its owner.

Who knows anymore what point he was trying to make. There isn't even a coherent argument behind his question.

But I own him now. He will forever know that 8Ball is smarter than he is. Being wilfully stupid (LeBron hater), ignorant and spamming the same "LeBron assist title" nonsense doesn't work when he runs into superior human intellect. :applause:

[3ball]

Let's look at the Bulls W-L records in games Pippen missed and Jordan missed during the 90's when Pippen was an All-Star so from 89-90 to 97-98. Neither ever missed a playoff game so this data is for regular season only.

Pippen played all 82 games in 89-90, 90-91, 91-92 and 96-97 so there is no data without Pippen for those years.

Jordan/No Pippen

92-93: 1-0
95-96: 5-0
97-98: 26-12

Overall: 32-12 (on pace for 60 wins)

Jordan played all 82 games in 89-90, 90-91, 95-96, 96-97 and 97-98 so there is no data without Jordan in those years.

Pippen/No Jordan

91-92: 0-2
92-93: 1-3
93-94: 51-21 (Pippen missed 10 games and Bulls went 4-6)
94-95: 33-29 (Pippen missed 3 games before MJ came back and Bulls went 1-2)

Overall: 85-55 (on pace for 50 wins)



We also have Plus Minus and ON/OFF data for the 96-97 and 97-98 seasons for what it's worth. I'm not a huge fan of Plus Minus and ON/OFF but some people like it.

Total Plus Minus

96-97 Season: Pippen +807 Jordan +818
97 Postseason: Pippen +122 Jordan +158
97-98 Season: Pippen +324 Jordan +598
98 Postseason: Pippen +117 Jordan +136

ON-OFF

96-97 Season: Pippen +8.1 Jordan +7.9
97 Postseason: Pippen +13.5 Jordan +23.6
97-98 Season: Pippen +3.3 Jordan +6.7
98 Postseason: Pippen -1.4 Jordan +13.1

Bulls were still young in 92' and 93', which is why Pippen was 1-5 without mj in those years - the historical record shows it was a progression - the cast wasn't good right away, or for a while:

the exact same 3-peat cast from 93' was a 6 seed in 89' with only 47 wins, so they would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without mj - aka the bulls' were a lottery cast that grew to a 3-peat cast by 93'.. they needed to 3-peat with mj, before they could win 55 without him.. that's the historical record

And winning 55 isn't impressive because everyone has done it - it's especially not impressive with the most perfect setup ever, aka 6 years of grooming (zero pressure, coddling) and a strategic advantage on the league

[3ball]

Bulls were still young in 92' and 93', which is why Pippen was 1-5 without mj in those years - the historical record shows it was a progression - the cast wasn't good right away, or for a while:

the exact same 3-peat cast from 93' was a 6 seed in 89' with only 47 wins, so they would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without mj - aka the bulls' were a lottery cast that grew to a 3-peat cast by 93'.. they needed to 3-peat with mj, before they could win 55 without him.. that's the historical record

And winning 55 isn't impressive because everyone has done it - it's especially not impressive with the most perfect setup ever, aka 6 years of grooming (zero pressure, coddling) and a strategic advantage on the league





8ball?

[Axe]

A thread about Bull's losses from 88-98 has Baller789 coming out asking about LeBron assist titles. :roll:

I keep taking a deep long shit down Baller789's mouth. Got this dog on a leash. :lol


Wait wait wait.....

"How many assist titles does Lebron have?" :roll:
Y'all kids are both the same tbh. Pathetic. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Kerr was waived by the Magic before joining the bulls and everyone else you named are role players that everyone has

Bulls won via system, not talent.. pippen was horrible as the stats show.. Ewing killed him and brand wasn't enough to save him

What does Kerr being waived by the Magic have to do with anything? Kerr by himself has more playoff wins and championships than the Orlando Magic franchise. Who won that decision?

Again, stick to your argument Do you even know what it means to have chemistry? How can you credit "3pt chemistry " to the 94 Bulks success when most of the players on the team had to won anything? Not to mention theres been many teams that have run the Triangle offense and failed miserably. Jim Clemmons took over as the head coach of the Mavericks, implemented the vaunted triangle offense with Jason Kidd, Jamal Mashburn, and Jimmy Jackson.

[97 bulls]

Bulls were still young in 92' and 93', which is why Pippen was 1-5 without mj in those years - the historical record shows it was a progression - the cast wasn't good right away, or for a while:

the exact same 3-peat cast from 93' was a 6 seed in 89' with only 47 wins, so they would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without mj - aka the bulls' were a lottery cast that grew to a 3-peat cast by 93'.. they needed to 3-peat with mj, before they could win 55 without him.. that's the historical record

And winning 55 isn't impressive because everyone has done it - it's especially not impressive with the most perfect setup ever, aka 6 years of grooming (zero pressure, coddling) and a strategic advantage on the league

Then why hasnt Jordan won 55 games?

[8Ball]

8ball?

Now you need a 3 peat with MJ before winning 55 games without him?

Then where was this 55 win team by MJ without Pippen? Never existed. Like a ghost.

Checkmated again.

[8Ball]

Y'all kids are both the same tbh. Pathetic. :oldlol:

I shit in his mouth. I own him on this forum. :lol

[8Ball]

Then why hasnt Jordan won 55 games?

Jordan needed Pippen to build 3ball's infamous 3 peat chemistry :oldlol:

[Axe]

Then why hasnt Jordan won 55 games?
Bang

[Axe]

You're dumb for not realizing that the 94' bulls had a rebounder at 2nd option and weren't talented without MJ (korver all-stars) thereby winning off 3-peat strategy and system, confidence - we saw in 95' after the playoffs exposed them and pippen - the Bulls were barely .500
You couldn't even explain why he retired for the 2nd time when he knew he couldn't play with pippen anymore, so... :confusedshrug:

[8Ball]

You couldn't even explain why he retired for the 2nd time when he knew he couldn't play with pippen anymore, so... :confusedshrug:

It's called a "culling blade" :pimp:

[97 bulls]

Bang

Lol

[Axe]

It's called a "culling blade" :pimp:
Oh wow how did you manage to come up with such remark

[8Ball]

Oh wow how did you manage to come up with such remark

Dota 2 is my once a week past time to play.

[Axe]

Dota 2 is my once a week past time to play.
Seriously? Unbelievable! :roll:

So who's your main?

[GrayGoat]

Seriously? Unbelievable! :roll:

So who's your main?
Stop replying to yourself

[Axe]

Stop replying to yourself
Are you dumb or what? If i had another account in this board, why would i reply to each other or use them both at the same time?

[3ball]

Then why hasnt Jordan won 55 games?

Same reason lebron missed the playoffs in 04/05 - he was young - but by Jordan's 3rd healthy year, he was good enough (MVP and DPOY) to have a high seed with a rebounder at 2nd option

[Smoke117]

3ball is a knotted rubber band ball of contradictions. One day he'll go on about how much Jordan did and how little impact Pippen had and that's why Jordan has to be the GOAT. The next day? He'll go on about how the Bulls lost because of Pippen. He simultaneous says he did nothing and them blames him for every bad thing that happened to the Bulls. He wants it both ways, apparently. lol There is then how everyone who plays with LeBron is automatically 10 times better than they really are and everyone who plays against LeBron is 10 times worse than they really are.

[HoopsNY]

So not only is Pippen the reason Chicago winning 50 games in the 1987-88 season, and getting MJ getting past the 1st round, despite being a rookie averaging 7 PPG and in the 1st round, 10 PPG...

but now it's MJ won 55 games because of Pippen who put up 16.5 PPG on 53 TS% in 1990. The comparison is LeBron leading the Cavs to 66 wins, yet no mention of Mo Williams putting up 18 PPG on 59% TS%.

Unbelievable

[8Ball]

Seriously? Unbelievable! :roll:

So who's your main?

I’m not on dotabuff.

Main character to play? Doom Sven spec are my favourites.

You good at the game or casual?

[8Ball]

Same reason lebron missed the playoffs in 04/05 - he was young - but by Jordan's 3rd healthy year, he was good enough (MVP and DPOY) to have a high seed with a rebounder at 2nd option

Bullshit.

You said it was easy to do so now you are using youth as an excuse.

Jordan at 25 years old still couldn’t win 55 games.
LeBron at 25 won 66.

Jordan at 26 still could not win 55 games.
LeBron at 26 won 60.

So it wasn’t easy for Jordan at all.

[Axe]

I’m not on dotabuff.

Main character to play? Doom Sven spec are my favourites.

You good at the game or casual?
I used to be good but that was back then, around more than 3 years ago i think. My mmr sucked tho lol. My faves are night stalker, axe, huskar and zeus. I shifted to lol because i find it easier, plus there are a lot of waifu characters to choose from. However, i still rarely play dota but it became limited to offline/ai unless my colleagues invite me.

[3ball]

Bullshit.

You said it was easy to do so now you are using youth as an excuse.

Jordan at 25 years old still couldn’t win 55 games.
LeBron at 25 won 66.

Jordan at 26 still could not win 55 games.
LeBron at 26 won 60.

So it wasn’t easy for Jordan at all.


Lebron's 28/8/7 won 66 games, while Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47 games in 89'.. lebron won 19 more games despite less personal production because his cast was better, aka the #3 defense and coach of the year, plus a 2-time all-star center and all-star guard.. whereas the 89' Bulls had zero accolades




Bullshit.

You said it was easy to do so now you are using youth as an excuse.

Jordan at 25 years old still couldn’t win 55 games.
LeBron at 25 won 66.

Jordan at 26 still could not win 55 games.
LeBron at 26 won 60.

So it wasn’t easy for Jordan at all.


2009 Cavs...... #3 defense... Mo averaged 18 on 38%... lost to #4 SRS Magic (1-star team)
1989 Bulls.... #11 defense... Pip averaged 15 on 40%.... beat. #1 SRS Cavs (3 all-stars + 20/5/5 Harp)


The Cavs were 1 seeds and massive favorites, while the bulls were 6 seeds and massive dogs

[GrayGoat]

No Pippen no chip n’

[3ball]

No Pippen no chip n’

Jordan won with Mo Williams offense from his sidekick and no top 5 defense, while Lebron lost with Mo and the #3 defense

[dankok8]

Bulls were still young in 92' and 93', which is why Pippen was 1-5 without mj in those years - the historical record shows it was a progression - the cast wasn't good right away, or for a while:

the exact same 3-peat cast from 93' was a 6 seed in 89' with only 47 wins, so they would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without mj - aka the bulls' were a lottery cast that grew to a 3-peat cast by 93'.. they needed to 3-peat with mj, before they could win 55 without him.. that's the historical record

And winning 55 isn't impressive because everyone has done it - it's especially not impressive with the most perfect setup ever, aka 6 years of grooming (zero pressure, coddling) and a strategic advantage on the league

Anyways... champion Bulls were a 50-win team with Pippen and without Jordan and a 60-win team with Jordan and without Pippen. And Jordan's value relative to Pippen grew in the postseason if you believe Plus Minus and ON/OFF data. Anyways from all the data I think it's fair to say that Jordan-less Bulls in the 90's would be on average a 50-win team that loses in the 2nd round of the playoffs. With Jordan they become on average a 65-win team (a range of 57 to 72 wins) and win a title 6 out of 7 years. That's pretty GOAT individual impact by Jordan. Lifting an already good 50-win team to maybe the greatest dynasty is incredible impact.

If I have the time I could actually work out the point differentials with and without Jordan to get an even better picture than just W-L records. Watching the Ben Taylor GOAT Peaks series about analytics and this discussion about Jordan vs. Pippen really got me interested.

[97 bulls]

Same reason lebron missed the playoffs in 04/05 - he was young - but by Jordan's 3rd healthy year, he was good enough (MVP and DPOY) to have a high seed with a rebounder at 2nd option

So then it's not easy to lead a team to 55 wins? It's so hard that an MVP/DPOY couldn't do it. Funny thing that Pip himself actually flirted with winning the MVP and DPOY as well.

[97 bulls]

Anyways... champion Bulls were a 50-win team with Pippen and without Jordan and a 60-win team with Jordan and without Pippen. And Jordan's value relative to Pippen grew in the postseason if you believe Plus Minus and ON/OFF data. Anyways from all the data I think it's fair to say that Jordan-less Bulls in the 90's would be on average a 50-win team that loses in the 2nd round of the playoffs. With Jordan they become on average a 65-win team (a range of 57 to 72 wins) and win a title 6 out of 7 years. That's pretty GOAT individual impact by Jordan. Lifting an already good 50-win team to maybe the greatest dynasty is incredible impact.

If I have the time I could actually work out the point differentials with and without Jordan to get an even better picture than just W-L records. Watching the Ben Taylor GOAT Peaks series about analytics and this discussion about Jordan vs. Pippen really got me interested.

Exactly!!!!! I've been saying this for years.

[3ball]

Jordan-less Bulls in the 90's would be on average a 50-win team that loses in the 2nd round of the playoffs.



^^^ complete horseshit because without mj, they lose in the 89' 1st Round and never get past the Big 4 Cavs.. infact, they miss the playoffs in 88', 89' and every year without Jordan.. a lottery team without Mike

So you're just ignoring the historical record that Jordan built the bulls into champions... They don't get past Cleveland without Jordan and would've actually missed the playoffs every year without Jordan

[GrayGoat]

Big 4 cavs lmao

[3ball]

Big 4 cavs lmao

They were the #1 SRS team in the league with 3 all stars plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper

So you're the ignorant one and shouldn't be sneering at anything except your own ignorance

Again, the bulls would be lottery in 1989 without Jordan, not Finals contenders.. the bulls never get off the ground without mj

[GrayGoat]

They were the #1 SRS team in the league with 3 all stars plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper

So you're the ignorant one and shouldn't be sneering at anything except your own ignorance

Again, the bulls would be lottery in 1989 without Jordan, not Finals contenders.. the bulls never get off the ground without mj

2015 Hawks had 4 all stars and LeBron swept them

[dankok8]

^^^ complete horseshit because without mj, they lose in the 89' 1st Round and never get past the Big 4 Cavs.. infact, they miss the playoffs in 88', 89' and every year without Jordan.. a lottery team without Mike

So you're just ignoring the historical record that Jordan built the bulls into champions... They don't get past Cleveland without Jordan and would've actually missed the playoffs every year without Jordan

You weren't reading broski. I said Bulls in the 90's which is what the data shows... Obviously 80's Bulls teams are lottery without MJ.

[riggyrich]

Op apparently doesn't know how to debate anything else besides a player who played 30 years ago. Prolly jerks off to 90s bulls playoff tapes before going to bed.

[3ball]

You weren't reading broski. I said Bulls in the 90's which is what the data shows... Obviously 80's Bulls teams are lottery without MJ.

The caliber of basketball required to 3-peat allows 55 win capability without the star in the 4th year

Bulls were a 1-man team in the 90"s which is what the data shows