3ball... where do you rank LeBron all time?

[Gus Hemmingway]

Discuss

[And1AllDay]

until we see another 7491 scorer bran gotta be top 1

issa wrap bois

[3ball]

Lebron would have 0 or 1 ring like Dr. J if he didn't stack the deck, so I have him at #11, a couple spots ahead of Dr. J

We wouldn't fraudulently rank Dr. J as goat if he teamed up with Bird/Drexler would we?..

yet we do it for lebron because clutch sports has used modern media influence to push false narrative

[RRR3]

Lebron would have 0 or 1 ring like Dr. J if he didn't stack the deck, so I have him at #11, a couple spots ahead of Dr. J

We wouldn't fraudulently rank Dr. J as goat if he teamed up with Bird/Drexler would we?..

yet we do it for lebron because clutch sports has used modern media influence to push false narrative
Dr. J literally played with 4 other all stars at one time you ****ing retard.

[3ball]

Dr. J literally played with 4 other all stars at one time you ****ing retard.

Both guys stacked their team to win and wouldn't have won otherwise..

Take away "the b.itch decision" and lebron has 0 or 1 ring.. he manufactured fake accolades WWE-style

Carry on with the fraud tho

[RRR3]

Both guys stacked their team to win and wouldn't have won otherwise..

Take away "the b.itch decision" and lebron has 0 or 1 ring.. he manufactured fake accolades WWE-style

Carry on with the fraud tho
LeBron has two rings apart from being on the Heat so even if you take those away he’d still have more than Dr. J. You’re retarded.

[3ball]

LeBron has two rings apart from being on the Heat so even if you take those away he’d still have more than Dr. J. You’re retarded.

he colluded for all rings and this is the historical record

Lebron would have 0 or 1 ring without colluding for a big 3 (2 star teammates) or a top 5 player sidekick

[8Ball]

Discuss

Top 1 all time.

[red1]

3ball is a lying flip-flopping bitch. he cant even keep his narratives straight. said lebron couldnt win a ring without a superteam. now he's grasping at straws trying to find a new way to hate.



he's at 4 rings now and won with two other franchises.



you lose bitch. we win. :oldlol:

[3ball]

3ball is a lying flip-flopping bitch. he cant even keep his narratives straight. said lebron couldnt win a ring without a superteam. now he's grasping at straws trying to find a new way to hate.



he's at 4 rings now and won with two other franchises.



you lose bitch. we win. :oldlol:
Lebron needs 2 star teammates (2 pippen's) or a top 3 player sidekick (Duncan, I mean AD)

So he gets zero respect for any of his rings... His resume is Dr. J without colluding

[RRR3]

Lebron needs 2 star teammates (2 pippen's) or a top 3 player sidekick (Duncan, I mean AD)

So he gets zero respect for any of his rings... His resume is Dr. J without colluding
Jordan has 0 rings without the best supporting cast in the league.

[GrayGoat]

Lebron needs 2 star teammates (2 pippen's) or a top 3 player sidekick (Duncan, I mean AD)

So he gets zero respect for any of his rings... His resume is Dr. J without colluding

So who was the 3rd star?

[BigKobeFan]

2011 and the decision still exists. Maybe 10 or 11

[GrayGoat]

2011 and the decision still exists. Maybe 10 or 11

Why did you switch accounts? Have you slept at all?

[RRR3]

2011 and the decision still exists. Maybe 10 or 11
Boiling :roll:

[red1]

Lebron needs 2 star teammates (2 pippen's) or a top 3 player sidekick (Duncan, I mean AD)

So he gets zero respect for any of his rings... His resume is Dr. J without colluding

dude you cant just shift the goalpost when you lose and get proven wrong every single time.

just accept the fact that you dont know shit. you're just a delusional fanboy.

every single theory you put forward has been proven wrong.

lebron beat a 70+ win team as the leader
lebron won with three different franchises three different coaches and three different teams.


that kills all of your narratives.



flat-out winner.




you = flat-out loser.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Lebron would have 0 or 1 ring like Dr. J if he didn't stack the deck, so I have him at #11, a couple spots ahead of Dr. J

We wouldn't fraudulently rank Dr. J as goat if he teamed up with Bird/Drexler would we?..

yet we do it for lebron because clutch sports has used modern media influence to push false narrative


Very fair; LBJ belongs, like Kenny the Jet Smith said, around that 9-11 spot. You could argue 9 as easily as #11.

[RRR3]

Very fair; LBJ belongs, like Kenny the Jet Smith said, around that 9-11 spot. You could argue 9 as easily as #11.
Stop talking to your self 3bitch

[Lebron23]

Very fair; LBJ belongs, like Kenny the Jet Smith said, around that 9-11 spot. You could argue 9 as easily as #11.

I hope you choke on your own dick.

[SouBeachTalents]

This just proves haters gonna hate, the same fools in here saying barely top 10 would never change their minds no matter what LeBron achieves

[red1]

Lebron needs 2 star teammates (2 pippen's) or a top 3 player sidekick (Duncan, I mean AD)

So he gets zero respect for any of his rings... His resume is Dr. J without colluding

nope. weak narrative-shifting. at least you aren't saying asterisks so that's good on you.


jordan's bulls aka pippen's bulls won 55-games without jordan.


jordan only ever won with that team. aka he's only ever won with one coach.


all jordan has ever done is score and put up high scoring numbers on those teams. kobe could've won 5 or 6 rings in his shoes too.





see? I can use hater narratives too. :)

[Gohan]

Lmao y’all losers take this shit too seriously. Whether lebron is goat or not y’all still gonna be broke as fvck

Lmao y’all really should do something besides watching sports channels all day

[red1]

Lmao y’all losers take this shit too seriously. Whether lebron is goat or not y’all still gonna be broke as fvck

are you talking about yourself? :oldlol:


some of us are just celebrating and enjoying rubbing it in. dont be a buzzkill alright my dude?



man I know this photo just bothers some people here.


https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2020/10/12/USAT/f1822cf7-bbf9-4a0e-b6db-7fddcc4e3035-LeBron.jpg
https://sportshub.cbsistatic.com/i/r/2020/10/12/5b673777-f080-4caf-8e83-e9b8b26b80f8/thumbnail/1200x675/8aa0b6d85c7de48157ceb53d008dc4d0/lebron-mvp1.jpg

[JimiKage]

Very fair; LBJ belongs, like Kenny the Jet Smith said, around that 9-11 spot. You could argue 9 as easily as #11.

You're so mad right now :oldlol:

[Vino24]

3ball had LeBron in his top 5 after his 2nd chip. Since his 4th chip he has slipped to the 11th spot. Makes sense.

[BigKobeFan]

2011 and the Decision still exist.

[Vino24]

2011 and the Decision still exist.

1-9 and 0 chips with Pippen is real

[3ball]

3ball had LeBron in his top 5 after his 2nd chip. Since his 4th chip he has slipped to the 11th spot. Makes sense.

I never had lebron top 5 you're dreaming

His resume is Dr J without the colluding

[HoopsNY]

Lebron would have 0 or 1 ring like Dr. J if he didn't stack the deck, so I have him at #11, a couple spots ahead of Dr. J

We wouldn't fraudulently rank Dr. J as goat if he teamed up with Bird/Drexler would we?..

yet we do it for lebron because clutch sports has used modern media influence to push false narrative

This whole rings argument is silly to begin with. While I agree he stacked the deck, it doesn't change the dynamic player that Lebron is. To rank him #11 is insulting. You have to at least concede to him being top 5 all time.

He's the most all-around player with or without a stacked team. When his team wasn't stacked, he still took them to the finals putting up insane numbers. So at the very least we have:

- Great scorer
- Great defender
- Great passer
- Great all-around player
- Great leader

LeBron would put up 27-7-7 career-wise without a stacked deck. Show the man some respect.

[NBAGOAT]

dr.j didnt just stack the deck in 83. teamed up with another aba mvp in mcginnis on a good sixers team. that fit ended up being disastrous.

[HoopsNY]

he colluded for all rings and this is the historical record

Lebron would have 0 or 1 ring without colluding for a big 3 (2 star teammates) or a top 5 player sidekick

And Golden State did the same. If Golden State doesn't stack the deck in 2017-2018, the odds are more even and LeBron wins the title those years. Even if we don't count his first two titles due to team stacking, then you have to add on at least one or two more titles because other teams were doing the same thing in the same era.

The problem with Mj stans and Lebron stans is that they can't remain consistent with their arguments when they apply their arguments across the board.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan has 0 rings without the best supporting cast in the league.

Right, because the other All-Star and All-NBA players on the 1991 championship team were.......

[3ball]

This whole rings argument is silly to begin with. While I agree he stacked the deck, it doesn't change the dynamic player that Lebron is. To rank him #11 is insulting. You have to at least concede to him being top 5 all time.

He's the most all-around player with or without a stacked team. When his team wasn't stacked, he still took them to the finals putting up insane numbers. So at the very least we have:

- Great scorer
- Great defender
- Great passer
- Great all-around player
- Great leader

LeBron would put up 27-7-7 career-wise without a stacked deck. Show the man some respect.

The East lets guys make the Finals as 1-star teams, aka Iverson, Kidd, Dwight, and Jimmy Butler - they all won the East as 1-star teams.. even Kawhi in 2019 - everyone would say lebron had a weak cast if Lowry was his sidekick

So lebron making the 07 or 18' Finals is the same as those guys... he actually FAILED to make it as the heavy favorite in 09/10, so he formed a super-team in the 1-star conference to ensure Finals runs

It's the weakest shit ever... Give Nash guys like Wade/Bosh, AD, or Kyrie/Love and he wins more than lebron

[Vino24]

And Golden State did the same. If Golden State doesn't stack the deck in 2017-2018, the odds are more even and LeBron wins the title those years. Even if we don't count his first two titles due to team stacking, then you have to add on at least one or two more titles because other teams were doing the same thing in the same era.

The problem with Mj stans and Lebron stans is that they can't remain consistent with their arguments when they apply their arguments across the board.

Mostly just MJ stans. LeBron constantly is proving their ever changing narratives wrong.

[3ball]

Mostly just MJ stans. LeBron constantly is proving their ever changing narratives wrong.

The East lets guys make the Finals as 1-star teams, aka Iverson, Kidd, Dwight, and Jimmy Butler - they all won the East as 1-star teams.. even Kawhi in 2019 - everyone would say lebron had a weak cast if Lowry was his sidekick

So lebron making the 07 or 18' Finals is the same as those guys... he actually FAILED to make it as the heavy favorite in 09/10, so he formed a super-team in the 1-star conference to ensure Finals runs

It's the weakest shit ever... Give Nash guys like Wade/Bosh, AD, or Kyrie/Love and he wins more than lebron

[Ainosterhaspie]

The East lets guys make the Finals as 1-star teams, aka Iverson, Kidd, Dwight, and Jimmy Butler - they all won the East as 1-star teams.. even Kawhi in 2019 - everyone would say lebron had a weak cast if Lowry was his sidekick

So lebron making the 07 or 18' Finals is the same as those guys... he actually FAILED to make it as the heavy favorite in 09/10, so he formed a super-team in the 1-star conference to ensure Finals runs

It's the weakest shit ever... Give Nash guys like Wade/Bosh, AD, or Kyrie/Love and he wins more than lebron

Nash/Love/Kylie wins? That would be an absolutely terrible defensive team. There is no chance that team wins a title.

[HoopsNY]

The East lets guys make the Finals as 1-star teams, aka Iverson, Kidd, Dwight, and Jimmy Butler - they all won the East as 1-star teams.. even Kawhi in 2019 - everyone would say lebron had a weak cast if Lowry was his sidekick

So lebron making the 07 or 18' Finals is the same as those guys... he actually FAILED to make it as the heavy favorite in 09/10, so he formed a super-team in the 1-star conference to ensure Finals runs

It's the weakest shit ever... Give Nash guys like Wade/Bosh, AD, or Kyrie/Love and he wins more than lebron

You're not getting it. LeBron was young and unproven in those days, and you have to realize his career extends beyond his first 7 seasons in the league. Players grow, players evolve, and the LeBron of 2007 isn't the same as LeBron of 2018.

With that being said, you're acting as if LeBron can not, in any way, team up with at least a decent all-star player. If LeBron has another all-star player riding with him through the 2010s, with no other team colluding as well (i.e, Golden State), guess what? He's winning multiple championships.

Even if he doesn't stack the deck, LeBron likely has at least 3 championships in 5, 6, 7 finals trips. You're taking away far too much from his legacy.

[3ball]

You're not getting it. LeBron was young and unproven in those days, and you have to realize his career extends beyond his first 7 seasons in the league. Players grow, players evolve, and the LeBron of 2007 isn't the same as LeBron of 2018.

With that being said, you're acting as if LeBron can not, in any way, team up with at least a decent all-star player. If LeBron has another all-star player riding with him through the 2010s, with no other team colluding as well (i.e, Golden State), guess what? He's winning multiple championships.

Even if he doesn't stack the deck, LeBron likely has at least 3 championships in 5, 6, 7 finals trips. You're taking away far too much from his legacy.

your claim that lebron would have 3+ rings without colluding is ridiculous considering he barely has that WITH colluding... He's a couple bounces away from being a 2/10 bum (further evidence that he isn't anywhere near GOAT)

Lebron was a perennial loser and underdog after teaming up with Wade/Bosh - he lost or was the underdog for 3 of 4 Finals, including the goat choke (11') and goat loss (14').... so think about it - 2/4 including the goat choke and loss = the worst anyone can do with Wade/Bosh

And you forget that 2010 Wade was #2 in PER, BPM, WS, and VORP.. aka the #2 player.. aka the best help possible.. his PER was 28 and Kobe's 22.. so lebron teamed up with someone better than Kobe at the time, and added a Pau-like pf.. indeed, lebron teamed up with Kobe/Pau and proceeded to be a perennial loser/underdog

[8Ball]

Jordan was swept 3x in a row with Jordan-Ball before getting Pippen.

Perennial loser before playing with a floor general.

[HoopsNY]

your claim that lebron would have 3+ rings without colluding is ridiculous considering he barely has that WITH colluding... He's a couple bounces away from being a 2/10 bum (further evidence that he isn't anywhere near GOAT)

Lebron was a perennial loser and underdog after teaming up with Wade/Bosh - he lost or was the underdog for 3 of 4 Finals, including the goat choke (11') and goat loss (14').... so think about it - 2/4 including the goat choke and loss = the worst anyone can do with Wade/Bosh

And you forget that 2010 Wade was #2 in PER, BPM, WS, and VORP.. aka the #2 player.. aka the best help possible.. his PER was 28 and Kobe's 22.. so lebron teamed up with someone better than Kobe at the time, and added a Pau-like pf.. indeed, lebron teamed up with Kobe/Pau and proceeded to be a perennial loser/underdog

I'm not forgetting any of that. What I'm remembering is that the Warriors were lucky Kyrie was injured in 2015. If he doesn't get injured, the Cavs win that title WITHOUT Kevin Love.

And in 2017 and 2018, Golden State also stacked the deck. So even if we delete his Miami rings AND his 2016 title, then he still wins at least 3 rings with all other factors being equal.

Be fair. Be consistent. You can't delete his rings without deleting other teams' rings as well.

[ZenMaster7210]

your claim that lebron would have 3+ rings without colluding is ridiculous considering he barely has that WITH colluding... He's a couple bounces away from being a 2/10 bum (further evidence that he isn't anywhere near GOAT)

Lebron was a perennial loser and underdog after teaming up with Wade/Bosh - he lost or was the underdog for 3 of 4 Finals, including the goat choke (11') and goat loss (14').... so think about it - 2/4 including the goat choke and loss = the worst anyone can do with Wade/Bosh

And you forget that 2010 Wade was #2 in PER, BPM, WS, and VORP.. aka the #2 player.. aka the best help possible.. his PER was 28 and Kobe's 22.. so lebron teamed up with someone better than Kobe at the time, and added a Pau-like pf.. indeed, lebron teamed up with Kobe/Pau and proceeded to be a perennial loser/underdog

https://media.giphy.com/media/Y47faAavPv0K8voGxt/giphy.gifhttps://media.giphy.com/media/26BREJmDKNvY4HHb2/giphy.gifhttps://i.makeagif.com/media/5-07-2019/UN1Amm.gif

[HoopsNY]

Jordan was swept 3x in a row with Jordan-Ball before getting Pippen.

Perennial loser before playing with a floor general.

"Perennial loser", says a guy who imitates another stan's name. Tell me rookie Pippen was the defining factor in Chicago's beating Cleveland in the '88 playoffs not Jordan averaging 45 PPG on 63% TS%.

[3ball]

And Golden State did the same. If Golden State doesn't stack the deck in 2017-2018, the odds are more even and LeBron wins the title those years. Even if we don't count his first two titles due to team stacking, then you have to add on at least one or two more titles because other teams were doing the same thing in the same era.

The problem with Mj stans and Lebron stans is that they can't remain consistent with their arguments when they apply their arguments across the board.

Warriors would figure out bron-ball just like the 14' Spurs, so lebron would lose by record amount again regardless of Durant's addition.

Only lebron has a record of teams figuring him out and winning Finals via blowout despite losing the prior year.. furthermore, all 6 Finals losses occured with the opponent figuring out bron-ball and winning the last 3 games going away..

(ultimately, bron-ball gets figured out, so the defense isn't getting worn down anymore, thus allowing more freshness for offense.. the best defense is a good offense.. tired defenses don't get hot offensively, only confident ones do)

[Roundball_Rock]

Dr. J literally played with 4 other all stars at one time you ****ing retard.

:lol


Jordan has 0 rings without the best supporting cast in the league.

Which MJ stans themselves will tell you when it comes to 1994. Their narrative literally is:

1991-1993 Bulls: MJ and scrubs, MJ won all by himself!
1994 Bulls: The most stacked team in the league! They should have won 65 games and the chip!
1995-1998 Bulls: MJ and scrubs, MJ won all by himself!

You can't make this level of delusion and hypocrisy up. :oldlol:


3ball had LeBron in his top 5 after his 2nd chip. Since his 4th chip he has slipped to the 11th spot. Makes sense.

:roll:

MJ stans need to stop the global meltdown and get it together. Jordan still has a case. Make it. LeBron, though, now has a strong case that is very different than Jordan's. How people come out will depend on their criteria and evaluations but LeBron's ability to win with different franchises, coaches, GM's, and players is unique in NBA history.

Take away basketball. Colin Cowherd put it this way: Jordan is the CEO who went to a bad company, made it dominant, left for a while and returned to the same company and dominated again. LeBron is the CEO who joined a bad company, took them near the top, left for another company and dominated with them, went to his old (bad) company and dominated with them, left for another bad company and dominated with them.

Which CEO's career is more impressive? That is the problem MJ stans have in the debate. Jordan can be painted as the racer who would be unbeatable if you give him a great car; LeBron as the racer who would win if you gave him 4 wheels and an engine.

[Carbine]

He didn't go to his old "bad" company.

He went to the company that was in the same location and building but had drastically different (elite) employees.

[madmax]

:lol



Which MJ stans themselves will tell you when it comes to 1994. Their narrative literally is:

1991-1993 Bulls: MJ and scrubs, MJ won all by himself!
1994 Bulls: The most stacked team in the league! They should have won 65 games and the chip!
1995-1998 Bulls: MJ and scrubs, MJ won all by himself!

You can't make this level of delusion and hypocrisy up. :oldlol:





:oldlol:
I mean, let's take a closer look at those "scrubby" 90s Bulls teams, shall we...

I'm only gonna mention 5 or 6 main rotations players from those chip winning years, but that should still be enough to get my point across:

Dennis Rodman - the most tenacious rebounder NBA has ever seen and an awesome defensive player to boot too;
Scottie Pippen - the most well rounded SF of his time, pretty much a prototype of a player that Lebron currently is, a player ahead of his time;
Luc Longley - reliable, big body in the paint with not a lick of ego and a great teammate too;
Horace Grant - another reliable double double machine, yet another great teammate;
Toni Kukoc - pretty much european Magic of the 90s, by far the most skilled euro of the time.

Now you go ahead and tell me that this team is not historically stacked, even compared to today's superteams?

[HoopsNY]

Warriors would figure out bron-ball just like the 14' Spurs, so lebron would lose by record amount again regardless of Durant's addition.

Only lebron has a record of teams figuring him out and winning Finals via blowout despite losing the prior year.. furthermore, all 6 Finals losses occured with the opponent figuring out bron-ball and winning the last 3 games going away..

(ultimately, bron-ball gets figured out, so the defense isn't getting worn down anymore, thus allowing more freshness for offense.. the best defense is a good offense.. tired defenses don't get hot offensively, only confident ones do)

You're thinking too deeply about it. In 2015, the Cavs managed to take the Warriors to 6 games without Kyrie and Love. If Kyrie doesn't get injured, the Cavs win that series, it's just that simple.

Then in 2017 and 2018, we'd likely have a repeat with the Cavs winning at least one of those series. I think it's fair to say LeBron has a title in 2013, 2015, and 2017 if all factors are equal. Why does that bother you so much? It's the reality.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol:
I mean, let's take a closer look at those "scrubby" 90s Bulls teams, shall we...

I'm only gonna mention 5 or 6 main rotations players from those chip winning years, but that should still be enough to get my point across:

Dennis Rodman - the most tenacious rebounder NBA has ever seen and an awesome defensive player to boot too;
Scottie Pippen - the most well rounded SF of his time, pretty much a prototype of a player that Lebron currently is, a player ahead of his time;
Luc Longley - reliable, big body in the paint with not a lick of ego and a great teammate too;
Horace Grant - another reliable double double machine, yet another great teammate;
Toni Kukoc - pretty much european Magic of the 90s, by far the most skilled euro of the time.

Now you go ahead and tell me that this team is not historically stacked, even compared to today's superteams?

Yup--and compare that to the "competition." There is a reason no other team could contend without their best player like the Bulls did. If you took Ewing off the Knicks they win 35 games or Malone off the Jazz they maybe get to 40.

Plus, we always talk about players. Look at coaches. The Bulls literally had the GOAT coach. Jordan, Kobe won nothing without him.

[3ball]

You're thinking too deeply about it. In 2015, the Cavs managed to take the Warriors to 6 games without Kyrie and Love. If Kyrie doesn't get injured, the Cavs win that series, it's just that simple.

Then in 2017 and 2018, we'd likely have a repeat with the Cavs winning at least one of those series. I think it's fair to say LeBron has a title in 2013, 2015, and 2017 if all factors are equal. Why does that bother you so much? It's the reality.

Why would he win in 2013?

You're being biased by trying to credit lebron with the 13' title

The only reason lebron needed 7 games and Ray Allen was because he wet the bed for the first 3 games (16 on 39%) - that's why Ray Allen and Game 7 was needed

lebron was a net negative for the series (heat lost with him on the floor).. he simply didn't deserve the 13' title

So I'll give him 15' and 16'.. but not 17' because we saw what happens when he tries to 3-peat and is expected to win (2014)

[HBK_Kliq_2]

until we see another 7491 scorer bran gotta be top 1

issa wrap bois

If you rank your players by all time points/assists, Tony Parker had a better career then Larry Bird.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

your claim that lebron would have 3+ rings without colluding is ridiculous considering he barely has that WITH colluding... He's a couple bounces away from being a 2/10 bum (further evidence that he isn't anywhere near GOAT)

Lebron was a perennial loser and underdog after teaming up with Wade/Bosh - he lost or was the underdog for 3 of 4 Finals, including the goat choke (11') and goat loss (14').... so think about it - 2/4 including the goat choke and loss = the worst anyone can do with Wade/Bosh

And you forget that 2010 Wade was #2 in PER, BPM, WS, and VORP.. aka the #2 player.. aka the best help possible.. his PER was 28 and Kobe's 22.. so lebron teamed up with someone better than Kobe at the time, and added a Pau-like pf.. indeed, lebron teamed up with Kobe/Pau and proceeded to be a perennial loser/underdog

You bring up a good point about a couple of bounces with 2016 / 2013. He's basically 2 shots away from 2/10. Think about this - going into last night's game - had Lebron lost game 6 and 7 with Miami winning, he'd have dropped off of EVERYONE'S top 10 list. So around #9 feels right to me. He should have won all 4 with Miami, and just getting his regular numbers in 2007 he'd have stretched that to 6/7 games. But after 4 full years in the league, he shot 5 PPG below his season averages wtih more turnovers. IE choked, just like in 2011. You cannot purge his resume no matter how easily he teams up with top 5 AD and steamrolls the star-less #5 seed Heat in the bubble. Sorry folks, he's still not in the top 5. If get can actually get 2 more I'll call him #2.

[RRR3]

You bring up a good point about a couple of bounces with 2016 / 2013. He's basically 2 shots away from 2/10. Think about this - going into last night's game - had Lebron lost game 6 and 7 with Miami winning, he'd have dropped off of EVERYONE'S top 10 list. So around #9 feels right to me. He should have won all 4 with Miami, and just getting his regular numbers in 2007 he'd have stretched that to 6/7 games. But after 4 full years in the league, he shot 5 PPG below his season averages wtih more turnovers. IE choked, just like in 2011. You cannot purge his resume no matter how easily he teams up with top 5 AD and steamrolls the star-less #5 seed Heat in the bubble. Sorry folks, he's still not in the top 5. If get can actually get 2 more I'll call him #2.
You’d have to be insane to blame LeBron for losing game 5.

[HoopsNY]

3ball doesn't get it. Saying he wouldn't have 3 rings because he barely managed to get them WITH colluding ignores the "all other factors being equal" argument.

If Golden State doesn't collude and Kyrie doesn't get injured in 2015, then yea, it's a pretty safe assumption to think that he'd have 3 rings. And so what? That doesn't shift him more or less to where he's at now, at least in my view.

We need to stop looking at totals and rings, and more at individual skill, talent, and basketball IQ (both offensive and defensive).

[Shaquille O'Neal]

You’d have to be insane to blame LeBron for losing game 5.


I don't seem to recall him playing any team ball, do you? It's a team game. He was gunning for FMVP; against a real team Lebron would've gotten bounced. You know it and I know it.

[Axe]

:oldlol:
I mean, let's take a closer look at those "scrubby" 90s Bulls teams, shall we...

I'm only gonna mention 5 or 6 main rotations players from those chip winning years, but that should still be enough to get my point across:

Dennis Rodman - the most tenacious rebounder NBA has ever seen and an awesome defensive player to boot too;
Scottie Pippen - the most well rounded SF of his time, pretty much a prototype of a player that Lebron currently is, a player ahead of his time;
Luc Longley - reliable, big body in the paint with not a lick of ego and a great teammate too;
Horace Grant - another reliable double double machine, yet another great teammate;
Toni Kukoc - pretty much european Magic of the 90s, by far the most skilled euro of the time.

Now you go ahead and tell me that this team is not historically stacked, even compared to today's superteams?
The only reason why 3ball calls them scrubs is because he knows that just a half of them wouldn't even average at least 20ppg at all. :lol

He needs to learn that their success doesn't just revolve around scoring. It's also about team play which gives them a chance to outperform all their opponents offensively and defensively.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

3ball doesn't get it. Saying he wouldn't have 3 rings because he barely managed to get them WITH colluding ignores the "all other factors being equal" argument.

If Golden State doesn't collude and Kyrie doesn't get injured in 2015, then yea, it's a pretty safe assumption to think that he'd have 3 rings. And so what? That doesn't shift him more or less to where he's at now, at least in my view.

We need to stop looking at totals and rings, and more at individual skill, talent, and basketball IQ (both offensive and defensive).

I seem to recall the following in 2016:
Curry was injured late season and in the playoffs. This "magic" 73-9 team went 15-9 in the next 24 games. They lost 3 to OKC too. So not the same team.
Secondly, Bogut got hurt.
3rd, Draymond's key game 5 suspension.
4th, you have a "sidekick" who had a 41 pt game on 71% shooting. Same dude who hit the game winning 3 for game 7. This dude won them at least 1-2 games by himself.

So remember that when you bring up 2015.

You don't want to look at individual skill and talent - MJ had that 1000x over Lebron. The first step, the footwork, interior passing, the fadeaway. Hell Lebron's not top 20 in the league for pure skill. Luca and CP3 are light years ahead of him skill-wise. He's just big and strong, stiff-arms and has a spin move / crab dribble-travel move. Poor midrange game, poor freethrows. He's gotten quite a bit ouf of his deficiencies, but so many players are better from a skill perspective.

[SouBeachTalents]

You bring up a good point about a couple of bounces with 2016 / 2013. He's basically 2 shots away from 2/10. Think about this - going into last night's game - had Lebron lost game 6 and 7 with Miami winning, he'd have dropped off of EVERYONE'S top 10 list. So around #9 feels right to me. He should have won all 4 with Miami, and just getting his regular numbers in 2007 he'd have stretched that to 6/7 games. But after 4 full years in the league, he shot 5 PPG below his season averages wtih more turnovers. IE choked, just like in 2011. You cannot purge his resume no matter how easily he teams up with top 5 AD and steamrolls the star-less #5 seed Heat in the bubble. Sorry folks, he's still not in the top 5. If get can actually get 2 more I'll call him #2.
Shaq got swept 5 times in 6 seasons and needed a miraculous 4th quarter comeback and Horry's buzzer beater to win 2 of his 3 FMVP's. Oh, and he had a top 5 player in the league for 3 of his 4 titles

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Shaq got swept 5 times in 6 seasons and needed a miraculous 4th quarter comeback and Horry's buzzer beater to win 2 of his 3 FMVP's. Oh, and he had a top 5 player in the league for 3 of his 4 titles

And yet Shaq still ranks ahead of Lebron in the all-time rankings. Shaq was clearly the #1 option in the 3 peat (something Lebron couldn't do) with a wide berth between the #2 scorer. It's what all-time greats do. GTFO with Kobe's 15 PPG 2000 Finals getting outscored by Austin Croshere.

[RRR3]

Shaq got swept 5 times in 6 seasons and needed a miraculous 4th quarter comeback and Horry's buzzer beater to win 2 of his 3 FMVP's. Oh, and he had a top 5 player in the league for 3 of his 4 titles
He arguably had the 2nd best player in the league for 2 of his titles (01, 02) and arguably the best player in the league in 2006. And the one time he didn’t have a top 5 teammate he still had pre prime Kobe who was nonetheless top 10 in the league AND Glen Rice.

[SouBeachTalents]

And yet Shaq still ranks ahead of Lebron in the all-time rankings. Shaq was clearly the #1 option in the 3 peat (something Lebron couldn't do) with a wide berth between the #2 scorer. It's what all-time greats do. GTFO with Kobe's 15 PPG 2000 Finals getting outscored by Austin Croshere.
Show me 2 rankings that have Shaq over LeBron since 2016

[K Xerxes]

You bring up a good point about a couple of bounces with 2016 / 2013. He's basically 2 shots away from 2/10. Think about this - going into last night's game - had Lebron lost game 6 and 7 with Miami winning, he'd have dropped off of EVERYONE'S top 10 list. So around #9 feels right to me. He should have won all 4 with Miami, and just getting his regular numbers in 2007 he'd have stretched that to 6/7 games. But after 4 full years in the league, he shot 5 PPG below his season averages wtih more turnovers. IE choked, just like in 2011. You cannot purge his resume no matter how easily he teams up with top 5 AD and steamrolls the star-less #5 seed Heat in the bubble. Sorry folks, he's still not in the top 5. If get can actually get 2 more I'll call him #2.

I wonder if people who adopt the 'coulda, woulda, shoulda' mentality to sports do the same to their lives. Do you often think about the opportunities you could have had, or the accomplishments you have achieved (if you have any?), and think only if there were 'a couple of bounces here and there'?

What happened happened. End of. This is true of sports, and is also the mentality you should take with your life.

There is no couple of bounces here and there, and Miami did not win game 6 or game 7. His resume is a result of his actions and the actions of his team mates. That's what a team sport is.

[8Ball]

And yet Shaq still ranks ahead of Lebron in the all-time rankings. Shaq was clearly the #1 option in the 3 peat (something Lebron couldn't do) with a wide berth between the #2 scorer. It's what all-time greats do. GTFO with Kobe's 15 PPG 2000 Finals getting outscored by Austin Croshere.

LOL.

LeBron > Shaq.

Every single accolade and stats have Bron > Shaq

[RRR3]

And yet Shaq still ranks ahead of Lebron in the all-time rankings. Shaq was clearly the #1 option in the 3 peat (something Lebron couldn't do) with a wide berth between the #2 scorer. It's what all-time greats do. GTFO with Kobe's 15 PPG 2000 Finals getting outscored by Austin Croshere.
Uh. Kobe took more shots per game than Shaq in both 2001 and 2002 playoffs dude.

[90sgoat]

I don't rank Lebron, just like I don't rank Lance Armstrong or Ben Johnson.

Cheaters do not get ranked.

[3ball]

I don't rank Lebron, just like I don't rank Lance Armstrong or Ben Johnson.

Cheaters do not get ranked.

Spot on

[StrongLurk]

I think 3ball is the only "real" Lebron hater left in the world. He's all alone...sad stuff actually.