30 guys had better statistica peak than pippen in 90's and better playoff performance

[3ball]

MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Dominique, Drexler, Robinson, Hill, Penny, Derrick Coleman, Alonzo Mourning, KJ, Kidd, Gary Payton, Iverson, Kemp, Mullin, Tim Hardaway, Webber, Kobe, Garnett, Dikembe, Price, Magic, Bird, Sprewell, Rod Strickland, Glenn Robinson


^^^ so that's 30 guys with better statistical peak than pippen in the 90's, and better playoff performance..

the only exceptions are Garnett and Hill, who didn't make playoffs but had better statistical peaks.. Otherwise, the only guys that are debateable is Glenn Robinson and Spree

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

What about

Reggie (wayyyy better in playoffs than Pippy Poo)
Stockton
Daugherty
Chambers
Grandmama
Bernard King
Worthy (made All NBA over Pip early 90s)
Dumars
Rice

[aj1987]

That's cute and all, but Ordan was getting eviscerated in the first round without Pippen. :confusedshrug:

[Overdrive]

The moment you use a 5 game samplesize of Derrick Coleman to discredit Pippen you lose all credibility as a basketball fan.

[aj1987]

The moment you use a 5 game samplesize of Derrick Coleman to discredit Pippen you lose all credibility as a basketball fan.

I mean, dude said Kiki Vandeweghe is a better Playoff scorer than LeBron. :oldlol:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?484136-Lebron-avoids-contested-jumpers&p=14106744&viewfull=1#post14106744

[FromDowntown]

The moment you use a 5 game samplesize of Derrick Coleman to discredit Pippen you lose all credibility as a basketball fan.

3brain cell lasted 2 posts on Real GM :lol

[RRR3]

MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Dominique, Drexler, Robinson, Hill, Penny, Derrick Coleman, Alonzo Mourning, KJ, Kidd, Gary Payton, Iverson, Kemp, Mullin, Tim Hardaway, Webber, Kobe, Garnett, Dikembe, Price, Magic, Bird, Sprewell, Rod Strickland, Glenn Robinson


^^^ so that's 30 guys with better statistical peak than pippen in the 90's, and better playoff performance..

the only exceptions are Garnett and Hill, who didn't make playoffs but had better statistical peaks.. Otherwise, the only guys that are debateable is Glenn Robinson and Spree
:roll: :roll: :roll: at any of the bolded being better in the 90s And Magic only had two years in the 90s as a star.

[Roundball_Rock]

What would be the reaction if there were 1-2 threads every single day dissing a MJ stan favorite like Stockton? Only Pippen is subjected to this.


That's cute and all, but Ordan was getting eviscerated in the first round without Pippen. :confusedshrug:

Plus he flat out quit as the reigning MVP when Pippen wouldn't be there anymore to hold his hand. He knew the deal--hence why he fought trading Pippen for years (even though if you listen to MJ stans, MJ would benefit from getting a younger star in place of Pippen: a win win, a better player who is younger and not breaking down physically like Pippen was by the end of the 90's) and then went to play golf when Pippen bounced.

I feel sorry for MJ stans. LeBron is on his way to another conference finals and maybe his 6th finals without Wade. His fans don't have to crusade against Wade 24/7 because their guy got the job done without Wade over and over again. You can't imagine LeBron quitting if Wade left.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/2016-03-12_15_50_21_Reassurance_sign_for_U.S._Route_1-9_along_northbound_Spring_Street_%28U.S._Route_1_a nd_U.S._Route_9_%28U.S._Route_1%269%29%29_near_New _Jersey_Route_81_in_Elizabeth%2C_New_Jersey.jpg

[RRR3]

Duh-uhhhh-uhhh....What about

Reggie (Durrr duhhh wayyyy better in playoffs than Pippy Poo)
Stockton
Daugherty
Chambers
Grandmama
Bernard King
Worthy (Durrr Hyuk huh durp made All NBA over Pip early 90s)
Dumars
Rice
Do you just go around making posts to try and prove you’re retarded? We already know you seriously struggle to analyze simple concepts, Hammy. You don’t have to keep proving your severe disability to us.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

This parasite should've been banned EONS ago.

3ball probably has nsfw of RMWG and Kblaze :oldlol:

[RRR3]

This weirdass creature should've been banned EONS ago.

3ball probably has nsfw of RMWG and Kblaze :oldlol:
He’s been banned countless times and I suspect another one is coming up. Btw did you peep some of the names he and Hamtardo listed as better than Pippen? :oldlol: Tom Chambers? Larry Johnson? Derrick Coleman? Mark Price? Glen Rice? Rod Strickland (ZERO all star games)? Shawn Kemp?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol at all-NBA being used against Pippen. The idea is to deceive deceive deceive across 10-15 posters from the same fan base--knowing that not every single deception can be fact checked.

The issue with these clowns being banned is it doesn't have an effect because they have alts to use while being banned.

The beef I have is Pippen fans are basically asked to unilaterally disarm but we see 1-2 threads DAILY slandering and deceiving about Pippen--and obviously the deception from those and what the same ilk (1-9ball, IMKobe, tpols, Hammy, gooseman, IG, and on and on) do in threads is taking a toll. Saying "Pippen wasn't good on offense but was dominant on defense" passes for "pro-Pippen" on ISH these days...that was not the case a decade ago.

[RRR3]

Rod Strickland being better than Scottie Pippen is one of the worst takes of all time. Rod Strickland never made an all-star game but sure he’s better than a consensus top 30 player of all time :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Rod Strickland being better than Scottie Pippen is one of the worst takes of all time. Rod Strickland never made an all-star game but sure he’s better than a consensus top 30 player of all time :oldlol:

Pippen isn't top 30 AT. Only crazy Pippen fans and LeBron fans think that. Didn't you get the memo? His "real" ranking is more like 3,000. That is the gaslighting in the Pippen DRS echo chamber. :lol

Just yesterday 1-9ball was saying Kukoc>Pippen was an option for the Bulls.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He’s been banned countless times and I suspect another one is coming up. Btw did you peep some of the names he and Hamtardo listed as better than Pippen? :oldlol: Tom Chambers? Larry Johnson? Derrick Coleman? Mark Price? Glen Rice? Rod Strickland (ZERO all star games)? Shawn Kemp?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Oh shit is that 3ball's retarded little nephew?

Dude none of these guys watched Pippen. You can tell that most of their information is from "PPG!" and Youtube highlights :lol Basically, whoever scorers prettiest is honored with fanboys for life.

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh shit is that 3ball's retarded little nephew?

Dude none of these guys watched Pippen. You can tell that most of their information is from "PPG!" and Youtube highlights :lol Basically, whoever scorers prettiest is honored with having a fanboy for life.

Wait, 1-9ball has a nephew on ISH? Along with IMKobe and tpols as poodles posting on ISH? :lol

Yeah, they never watched Pippen. Tpols was saying the other day Pippen had no post game (ask the Jazz about that :oldlol: ), I have seen IMKobe say Pippen was a bad finisher, etc. Blatant nonsense anyone who watches even one game of the Bulls in Pippen's heyday could see. Yet they pose as authorities on Pippen.

[PeroAntic]

No truthful assessment of Pippen can ever come out of MJ or Lebron stans.

[insidious301]

Pippen's BPM in the Playoffs

91: #8
92: #4
94: #7
95: #8
96: #3
97: #10

We know that BPM is one of the best captures of all around play. So, not only does Pippen's impact shine bright, but the data also deflates the OP's claim. Pippen averaged superstar production which is why he was regarded as the best SF that decade.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen's BPM in the Playoffs

91: #8
92: #4
94: #7
95: #8
96: #3
97: #10

We know that BPM is one of the best captures of all around play. So, not only does Pippen's impact shine bright, but the data also deflates the OP's claim. Pippen averaged superstar production which is why he was regarded as the best SF that decade.

Good stuff. :cheers: Here is more BPM era comparing Pippen to other players:

90's Stars/Sidekicks Prime BPM's

Jordan 87’-96’: 11.1
Robinson 90’-98’: 8.7
Stockton 89’-98’: 7.8
Barkley 87’-96’: 7.1
Shaq 94’-05’: 6.6
Drexler 88’-95’: 6.5
Pippen 91’-98’: 6.0
Malone 88’-99’: 6.0
Hakeem 86’-97’: 5.5
Price 89’-94’: 5.4
Hill 95’-00’: 5.2
Payton 94’-02’: 4.9
Wilkins 86’-94’: 4.5
Porter 89’-93’: 4.3
Miller 90’-00’: 4.2
Hardaway 91’-98’: 4.1
Ewing 88’-97’: 4.0
Mullin 89’-95’: 3.7
Johnson 89’-97’: 3.5
Mourning 94’-00’: 3.2
Worthy 86’-92’: 2.8
Daughtery 88’-94’: 2.4
Mutumbo 92’-02’: 2.0
Kemp 93’-98’: 2.0
Richmond 89’-98’: 1.7
Starks 93’-96’: 1.6
Dumars 89’-97’: 1.2
Smits 94’-99’: 0.8
Thorpe 87’-94’: 0.6
Elliott 92’-96’: 0.6
Willis 87’-95’: -1.0

All roads lead back to this: if Pippen sucked, MJ's era had to have been a joke if a scrub was universally considered one of the top players of that era. :oldlol:

[insidious301]

Is that for regular-season, Roundball? Either way, Pippen is way ahead of names we hear from the MJ cult. And around #7 is where most have 90s Pippen overall. This education isn't without a cost, so we'll need to see a form of rectifying. OP needs to edit his summary ASAP.

[Roundball_Rock]

Is that for regular-season, Roundball? Either way, Pippen is way ahead of names we hear from the MJ cult. And around #7 is where most have 90s Pippen overall. This education isn't without a cost, so we'll need to see a form of rectifying. OP needs to edit his summary ASAP.

RS. PO would show similar things I bet, looking at your numbers. He was top 10 six times and top 5 twice in PO BPM.

All available data tells us the same thing: BPM, VORP, advanced forms of plus/minus, all-NBA voters, what experts said at the time and later, etc. Yet we can present an ocean of data and these people will continue to say "Pippen sucked."

[3ball]

What about

Reggie (wayyyy better in playoffs than Pippy Poo)
Stockton
Daugherty
Chambers
Grandmama
Bernard King
Worthy (made All NBA over Pip early 90s)
Dumars
Rice

Omg totally forgot about Reggie.. he destroys Pippen in the playoffs, and outplayed Pippen against the 94' Knicks, 95' Magic, 00' Lakers, basically any common opponent.

[3ball]

The moment you use a 5 game samplesize of Derrick Coleman to discredit Pippen you lose all credibility as a basketball fan.

I'm not using a 5-game sample

Coleman had better peak regular season stats, and yes, better playoff performance

But anyone that knows basketball knew that Coleman destroys Pippen as a player, and this was the consensus during Coleman's prime.. Pippen simply got the accolades because his team was winning

[insidious301]

I'm not using a 5-game sample

Coleman had better peak regular season stats, and yes, better playoff performance

But anyone that knows basketball knew that Coleman destroys Pippen as a player, and this was the consensus during Coleman's prime.. Pippen simply got the accolades because his team was winning

Incorrect. Pippen's prime suggests he averaged a higher BPM. And top 10 BPM throughout the 90s. We also know that BPM is a cumulative measure that takes all your numbers into account. Go ahead and edit your OP.

[Turbo Slayer]

MJ, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Ewing, Barkley, Malone, Dominique, Drexler, Robinson, Hill, Penny, Derrick Coleman, Alonzo Mourning, KJ, Kidd, Gary Payton, Iverson, Kemp, Mullin, Tim Hardaway, Webber, Kobe, Garnett, Dikembe, Price, Magic, Bird, Sprewell, Rod Strickland, Glenn Robinson


^^^ so that's 30 guys with better statistical peak than pippen in the 90's, and better playoff performance..

the only exceptions are Garnett and Hill, who didn't make playoffs but had better statistical peaks.. Otherwise, the only guys that are debateable is Glenn Robinson and Spree
Pippen was better than roughly half of the players in your list during the 90's. Kobe? Lol.

[NBAGOAT]

You’ve lost it man. Even I expect better arguments than this.

[Roundball_Rock]

Incorrect. Pippen's prime suggests he averaged a higher BPM. And top 10 BPM throughout the 90s. We also know that BPM is a cumulative measure that takes all your numbers into account. Go ahead and edit your OP.

He also is lying about the consensus. Lie after lie after lie. No one thought Coleman was better than Pippen at any point in the 90's--not even Derrick Coleman. :lol


Pippen was better than roughly half of the players in your list during the 90's. Kobe? Lol.

Several of those players were in trades or in trade rumors. It is easy to see how they were perceived by teams by looking at offers. For instance, Sprewell--fresh of a first team all-NBA season--wasn't considered good enough to trade for Pippen straight up so the Warriors had to offer Tom Gugiliotta (a future all-star, 21/9 player at his peak) along with Sprewell. The Bulls would laugh at Sprewell straight up.

Similarly, Mourning was worth Glen Rice straight up to Miami (with scrub fillers on each side). For Pippen, Miami offered 2 of their 3 best players the prior year--one of either Rice or Steve Smith (forwards) along with Rony Seiklay. Rice was a future all-NBA player, Smith a future all-star, and Seiklay a 17/10 player at his peak.

Same exercise with Hardaway. Look up what Miami "gave" up to trade for him--again, the very next year.

MJ stans like to hype Drexler. Pippen had much more trade value than Drexler in their primes. Drexler was traded for Otis Thorpe and a non-rotation player. Yeah, he was 32--but Pippen at 31/32 still had much more trade value.

We can go on and on. The issue is, why is he and his ilk blatantly lying over and over again?


You’ve lost it man.

It will get only worse as LeBron keeps racking up playoff wins, probably a WCF trip, and potentially gets another chip--all without Wade. #Insecurity Can you imagine the meltdown if the Lakers win this year?

[3ball]

RS. PO would show similar things I bet, looking at your numbers. He was top 10 six times and top 5 twice in PO BPM.

All available data tells us the same thing: BPM, VORP, advanced forms of plus/minus, all-NBA voters, what experts said at the time and later, etc. Yet we can present an ocean of data and these people will continue to say "Pippen sucked."


BPM means nothing and doesn't offset Pippen's weak PPG, TS, PER, WS/48, OBPM, ORTG, assist %, and PLAYOFF PERFORMANCE

And BPM's creators say the stat is garbage and inaccurate:



"There are limitations on all box score stats – if the box score doesn't measure a particular contribution, a box-score-based metric can only approximate that contribution. This is not a great hindrance on the offensive side, as nearly everything of importance on offense is captured by the box score (only missing things like screen-setting), but on defense the box score is quite limited. Blocks, steals, and rebounds, along with what little information offensive numbers yield about defensive performance are all that is available. Such critical components of defense as positioning, communication, and the other factors that make Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan elite on defense can't be captured, unfortunately.

What does this mean? Box Plus/Minus is good at measuring offense and solid overall, but the defensive numbers in particular should not be considered definitive. Look at the defensive values as a guide, but don't hesitate to discount them when a player is well known as a good or bad defender."

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html


So pippen's stats were trash and his accolades are from winning - that's the whole argument - MJ and the winning spotlight inflated Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

LeBron without Wade (so far): 1 chip, 5 finals, 6 ECF's
Jordan without Pippen:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/2016-03-12_15_50_33_View_north_along_U.S._Route_1_and_U.S. _Route_9_%28Spring_Street%29_at_New_Jersey_State_R oute_81_in_Elizabeth%2C_Union_County%2C_New_Jersey .jpg

Get over it. No one seriously holds that he didn't win without Pippen against him. 80% or so of people have him as GOAT.

Jordan's team was good enough to be 10th in offense, 2nd in defense without him and to nearly win the #1 seed. No shame in playing on a good team like every other champ.

[insidious301]

PER accounts for steals and blocks too. So do winshares. What are you talking about? You need to read up on the data before blindly posting it. Nobody is using BPM as a defensive measure, and unlike those other stats, it isolates a players impact more accurately. That is while still adjusting per 100 possessions. Now that you've been edified you can amend your topic appropriately. After all that is the fair thing to do.

[Roundball_Rock]

PER takes into account steals and blocks too. So do winshares. What are you talking about? You need to read up on the data before blindly posting it. Nobody is using BPM as a defensive measure, but unlike those other stats, it isolates a players impact more accurately than the others do. And that is with still adjusting per 100 possessions. Now that you've been edified you can amend your topic appropriately. Aftearll that is the fair thing to do.

Pippen was ahead of prime Malone and prime Barkley in all-NBA voting for forwards in multiple years (Malone wasn't even close to Pippen in 94', 94-68 vote says it all...). I haven't seen a single MJ stain explain how a scrub could be ahead of MJ's "great comp" for half his finals in their primes. They are spinning out of control with their agendas and are all over the map.

[insidious301]

Pippen was ahead of prime Malone and prime Barkley in all-NBA voting for forwards in multiple years (Malone wasn't even close to Pippen in 94', 94-68 vote says it all...). I haven't seen a single MJ stain explain how a scrub could be ahead of MJ's "great comp" for half his finals in their primes. They are spinning out of control with their agendas and are all over the map.

That is correct, Roundball. Unfortunately awards will be ignored because raw numbers are trendy. However we have a stat that encapsulates all your raw totals! And it accounts for possession! To ignore that would be the same as being KO'd in the first of 12 rounds.

[Roundball_Rock]

That is correct, Roundball. Unfortunately awards will be ignored because raw numbers are trendy. However we have a stat that encapsulates all your raw totals! And it accounts for possession! To ignore that would be the same as being KO'd in the first of 12 rounds.

:lol

Well, per MJ stans we have to ignore:

*Accolades
*Advanced stats
*Plus/minus data
*How much worse Pippen's teams became w/out him (unlike, say, Drexler's teams sans him)
*What teams thought
*What coaches thought
*What NBA players thought
*What sportswriters thought
*What experts think today
*What MJ himself thought

We simply have to take MJ stan's word for everything, which is stuff like "consensus was Coleman was better than Pippen" which is a laughable lie.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

https://media.tenor.com/images/eed221bbfcc84266d040eba4a5858d67/tenor.gif

Insidious and RR are Shaq to 3ball's Dudley

[3ball]

PER accounts for steals and blocks too. So do winshares. What are you talking about? You need to read up on the data before blindly posting it. Nobody is using BPM as a defensive measure, and unlike those other stats, it isolates a players impact more accurately. That is while still adjusting per 100 possessions. Now that you've been edified you can amend your topic appropriately. After all that is the fair thing to do.

No, the creators say the stat is trash - it inflates defensive rebounds and steals and therefore Pippen, which is why you like the stat.. but it doesn't offset Pippen's weak PPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM, TS, ORTG, or assist %.... or his weak peak or playoff performance

[insidious301]

No, the creators say the stat is trash - it inflates defensive rebounds and steals and therefore Pippen, which is why you like the stat.. but it doesn't offset Pippen's weak PPG, PER, WS/48, OBPM, TS, ORTG, or assist %.... or his weak peak or playoff performance

You make a habbit of being wrong. They state explicitly that for defensive purposes it cannot be used as a one-stop metric. Otherwise it is the same thing as PER-ORTG-WS, except that it isolates a players impact. And therefor a cut above. Now with that in mind, you can confidently say Pippen was the best SF in the 90s.

[3ball]

:lol

Well, per MJ stans we have to ignore:

*Accolades
*Advanced stats
*Plus/minus data
*How much worse Pippen's teams became w/out him (unlike, say, Drexler's teams sans him)
*What teams thought
*What coaches thought
*What NBA players thought
*What sportswriters thought
*What experts think today
*What MJ himself thought

We simply have to take MJ stan's word for everything, which is stuff like "consensus was Coleman was better than Pippen" which is a laughable lie.

Pippen has a weak peak, playoff performance, and stats, aka PPG, TS, PER, WS/48, OBPM, ORTG and assist %

These are stronger arguments than you citing quotes from players or coaches, who say nice things about all players - they were simply asked about Pippen more often because of the winning spotlight.. players never say "he sucks" when asked about a player..

And his accolades that were received due to the winning spotlight and association with MJ

So your arguments (political comments from people in industry and inflated accolades) are weak compared to the actual stats and performance

[Roundball_Rock]

https://media.tenor.com/images/eed221bbfcc84266d040eba4a5858d67/tenor.gif

Insidious and RR are Shaq to 3ball's Dudley

:lol

1-9ball and mini-1-9ball I (IMKobe) have been getting wrecked lately in thread after thread.

Let's do a spot check of Pippen vs. Ewing and expose some more BS. :pimp: Numbers for 88'-97' for Ewing, 91'-98' for Pippen--the years they were all-NBA caliber players.

WS/48: Pippen .185, Ewing .172
BPM: Pippen 6.0, Ewing 4.0
OBPM: Pippen 3.9, Ewing 2.0
DBPM: Pippen 2.1, Ewing 2.0
PER: Ewing 22.5, Pippen 21.2
VORP: Pippen 45.9 (599 games), Ewing 44.7 (800 games)
VORP per 82: Pippen 6.3, Ewing 4.6
ORTG: Pippen 112, Ewing 108
TS %: Ewing 56%, Pippen 55% (Ewing was a post player, Pippen a SF...)

Pippen decimates Ewing across the board--and we don't even have plus/minus listed where Pippen crushes him as well.

I picked Ewing because he was the best player on the Bulls' top comp and the type of guy MJ stans will point to as a prime example of a "real" superstar unlike scrub Pippen.

What was most striking to me is VORP says 590 or so games of Pippen>800 games of Ewing in terms of value.

Damn, per 1-9ball's own metrics: MJ's "sidekick" was a better player than the best player on his top opposing team--the best non-Bull player in the East for most of the decade, etc. How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown:

[Turbo Slayer]

:lol

1-9ball and mini-1-9ball I (IMKobe) have been getting wrecked lately in thread after thread.

Let's do a spot check of Pippen vs. Ewing and expose some more BS. :pimp: Numbers for 88'-97' for Ewing, 91'-98' for Pippen--the years they were all-NBA caliber players.

WS/48: Pippen .185, Ewing .172
BPM: Pippen 6.0, Ewing 4.0
OBPM: Pippen 3.9, Ewing 2.0
DBPM: Pippen 2.1, Ewing 2.0
PER: Ewing 22.5, Pippen 21.2
VORP: Pippen 45.9 (599 games), Ewing 44.7 (800 games)
VORP per 82: Pippen 6.3, Ewing 4.6
ORTG: Pippen 112, Ewing 108
TS %: Ewing 56%, Pippen 55% (Ewing was a post player, Pippen a SF...)

Pippen decimates Ewing across the board--and we don't even have plus/minus listed where Pippen crushes him as well.

I picked Ewing because he was the best player on the Bulls' top comp and the type of guy MJ stans will point to as a prime example of a "real" superstar unlike scrub Pippen.

What was most striking to me is VORP says 590 or so games of Pippen>800 games of Ewing in terms of value.

Damn, per 1-9ball's own metrics: MJ's "sidekick" was a better player than the best player on his top opposing team--the best non-Bull player in the East for most of the decade, etc. How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown: Question: How you get per 82 stats? What is the formula?

[Roundball_Rock]

Question: How you get per 82 stats? What is the formula?

Divide the VORP (or WS) by the number of games and multiply that by 82. So for Pippen the VORP was 0.077 and that over 82 games=6.3.

In WS Pippen is ahead, 11.9 over 82 games versus 10.8 for Ewing.

VORP, WS are cumulative so you have to find a way to make it "apples to apples" or else, usually, the player with a lot more games will be ahead (although Pippen still was with 201 less games in VORP :bowdown: ).

We also know Pippen's advanced stats peaked as a #1 option. This comparison would be even more lopsided if Pippen played on the Knicks and Ewing on the Bulls. Of course in that scenario, we know 1-9ball/IMKobe/tpols/gooseman/et al. would all be telling us daily how much Ewing sucked and how great the Knicks were, how hard they were for MJ to beat by himself (since Ewing sucked) because they had such an awesome player like Pippen on it. :oldlol:

[3ball]

:lol

1-9ball and mini-1-9ball I (IMKobe) have been getting wrecked lately in thread after thread.

Let's do a spot check of Pippen vs. Ewing and expose some more BS. :pimp: Numbers for 88'-97' for Ewing, 91'-98' for Pippen--the years they were all-NBA caliber players.

WS/48: Pippen .185, Ewing .172
BPM: Pippen 6.0, Ewing 4.0
OBPM: Pippen 3.9, Ewing 2.0
DBPM: Pippen 2.1, Ewing 2.0
PER: Ewing 22.5, Pippen 21.2
VORP: Pippen 45.9 (599 games), Ewing 44.7 (800 games)
VORP per 82: Pippen 6.3, Ewing 4.6
ORTG: Pippen 112, Ewing 108
TS %: Ewing 56%, Pippen 55% (Ewing was a post player, Pippen a SF...)

Pippen decimates Ewing across the board--and we don't even have plus/minus listed where Pippen crushes him as well.

I picked Ewing because he was the best player on the Bulls' top comp and the type of guy MJ stans will point to as a prime example of a "real" superstar unlike scrub Pippen.

What was most striking to me is VORP says 590 or so games of Pippen>800 games of Ewing in terms of value.

Damn, per 1-9ball's own metrics: MJ's "sidekick" was a better player than the best player on his top opposing team--the best non-Bull player in the East for most of the decade, etc. How stacked was MJ's team? :bowdown:

Ewing's overall regular season and playoff stats are much better than Pippen's

There isn't much else to say.. your cherry-picked years and stats don't change the obvious.. we could post all the regular season and playoff stats - Ewing would demolish Pippen

Ewing could carry a team... And bad teams.. Or a bad coach.. Pippen literally couldn't do anything

Heck, Pippen butchered an easy ring in 94'... If pippen's 21 on 40% nearly beat the Knicks, then MJ easily wins that year.. Kukoc led the team in playoff BPM anyway and would've been an actual 2nd scoring option in tight games so MJ didn't have to do everything down the stretch

[Roundball_Rock]

This guy is so ridiculous you would assume he is trolling--but he sucks even at that. I think he is just flat out crazy. He genuinely thinks a player like Coleman>Pippen, that Kukoc>Pippen as an offensive option (news to Phil Jackson), that "Pippen sucked", etc.

These are your own handpicked metrics. Pippen crushes Ewing in category after category. No surprise: Pippen is top 20-30 all-time and Ewing in the top 35-40 range.

[Turbo Slayer]

Divide the VORP (or WS) by the number of games and multiply that by 82. So for Pippen the VORP was 0.077 and that over 82 games=6.3.

In WS Pippen is ahead, 11.9 over 82 games versus 10.8 for Ewing.

VORP, WS are cumulative so you have to find a way to make it "apples to apples" or else, usually, the player with a lot more games will be ahead (although Pippen still was with 201 less games in VORP :bowdown: ).

We also know Pippen's advanced stats peaked as a #1 option. This comparison would be even more lopsided if Pippen played on the Knicks and Ewing on the Bulls. Of course in that scenario, we know 1-9ball/IMKobe/tpols/gooseman/et al. would all be telling us daily how much Ewing sucked and how great the Knicks were, how hard they were for MJ to beat by himself (since Ewing sucked) because they had such an awesome player like Pippen on it. :oldlol: Thanks. So LeBron's amazing season in 2009 would turn out to be 11.9 VORP per 82 right? Please tell me if I'm doing it incorrect.

[3ball]

This guy is so ridiculous you would assume he is trolling--but he sucks even at that. I think he is just flat out crazy. He genuinely thinks a player like Coleman>Pippen, that Kukoc>Pippen as an offensive option (news to Phil Jackson), that "Pippen sucked", etc.

These are your own handpicked metrics. Pippen crushes Ewing in category after category. No surprise: Pippen is top 20-30 all-time and Ewing in the top 35-40 range.

Bro you sound like an idiot saying Pippen is anywhere near Ewing

It shows how clueless you are that you would make that argument

You have no eye test.. Pippen was a flow scorer - an Iggy - Iggy doesn't compare to Ewing.. Pippen was largely a defensive role player..

Only MJ could make up his weak scoring and the cast"s.. the Bulls needed a scoring champ for all 6 rings... Whereas MJ could"ve averaged 24 ppg alongside Ewing

[Turbo Slayer]

Divide the VORP (or WS) by the number of games and multiply that by 82. So for Pippen the VORP was 0.077 and that over 82 games=6.3.

In WS Pippen is ahead, 11.9 over 82 games versus 10.8 for Ewing.

VORP, WS are cumulative so you have to find a way to make it "apples to apples" or else, usually, the player with a lot more games will be ahead (although Pippen still was with 201 less games in VORP :bowdown: ).

We also know Pippen's advanced stats peaked as a #1 option. This comparison would be even more lopsided if Pippen played on the Knicks and Ewing on the Bulls. Of course in that scenario, we know 1-9ball/IMKobe/tpols/gooseman/et al. would all be telling us daily how much Ewing sucked and how great the Knicks were, how hard they were for MJ to beat by himself (since Ewing sucked) because they had such an awesome player like Pippen on it. :oldlol: So whats the VORP per 82 games if I were to combine LBJ 2009 and 2010 together? What is the answer? Thx.

[3ball]

So whats the VORP per 82 games if I were to combine LBJ 2009 and 2010 together? What is the answer? Thx.

Jordan has the top VORP seasons

Lebron is worth less value above replacement than Jordan

[Roundball_Rock]

So whats the VORP per 82 games if I were to combine LBJ 2009 and 2010 together? What is the answer? Thx.

22.1 VORP across 157 games, so 11.5 per 82.

Going back to Coleman, he was traded in his prime. It was Coleman/role players for Shawn Bradley/role players. So basically Coleman for Bradley (the only starters in the trade if I recall correctly). :lol

Let me guess: 1-9ball thinks Bradley>Pippen too.

[Turbo Slayer]

22.1 VORP across 157 games, so 11.5 per 82. Ah. I got the formula down. Good shit.

[Turbo Slayer]

Bro you sound like an idiot saying Pippen is anywhere near Ewing

It shows how clueless you are that you would make that argument

You have no eye test.. Pippen was a flow scorer - an Iggy - Iggy doesn't compare to Ewing.. Pippen was largely a defensive role player..

Only MJ could make up his weak scoring and the cast"s.. the Bulls needed a scoring champ for all 6 rings... Whereas MJ could"ve averaged 24 ppg alongside Ewing Iggy is nowhere near Pippen. A terrible comparison... LOL.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


Pippen's peak regular season stats and playoff performance was arguably worse than 30 guys in the 90's

By saying Pippen is a top 7 player in the 90's, you're saying MJ isn't goat and you're defying the stats (why would MJ need to be the goat scorer to win, if he plays with a top 7 player?.. so obviously, said player isn't top 7)

People don't understand how ridiculous it is that the bulls needed a scoring champ to win all 6 rings because no other team ever needed a scoring champ.. only Shaq and Kareem once each in their peak seasons.. that's insane

[Roundball_Rock]

Iggy is nowhere near Pippen. A terrible comparison... LOL.

:roll:

Iggy is a 1x all-star, never made all-NBA, probably never got a MVP vote, etc. That's who this fool is comparing to Pippen, who was ranked #21 all-time in the most recent list (ESPN).

Let's accept his argument, though. Iggy is, as noted above, a 1x all-star in this era. 1-9ball is saying MJ's era was so weak Iggy would a superstar, first team all-NBA, MVP candidate, etc. in that era--yet he is just another good player today who can make 1 AS team. How can we take anything MJ did in such a weak era seriously?

All roads lead back to: MJ's era was a joke, per his own stans (although they fail to grasp this due to Pippen DRS).


MJ could"ve averaged 24 ppg alongside Ewing

Also note he said MJ would average 24 PPG on the Knicks. That would make him equal to Ewing as an option...damn, that is a huge insult to MJ! Now MJ is being demoted from GOAT to top 35-40 AT?

Another way to look at it: he is saying MJ would score 5 PPG more than peak Starks. Ridiculous stuff.

[3ball]

:roll:

Iggy is a 1x all-star, never made all-NBA, probably never got a MVP vote, etc. That's who this fool is comparing to Pippen, who was ranked #21 all-time in the most recent list (ESPN).

Let's accept his argument, though. Iggy is, as noted above, a 1x all-star in this era. 1-9ball is saying MJ's era was so weak Iggy would a superstar, first team all-NBA, MVP candidate, etc. in that era--yet he is just another good player today who can make 1 AS team. How can we take anything MJ did in such a weak era seriously?

All roads lead back to: MJ's era was a joke, per his own stans (although they fail to grasp this due to Pippen DRS).



Also note he said MJ would average 24 PPG on the Knicks. That would make him equal to Ewing as an option...damn, that is a huge insult to MJ! Now MJ is being demoted from GOAT to top 35-40 AT?

Another way to look at it: he is saying MJ would score 5 PPG more than peak Starks. Ridiculous stuff.

You lied again

I said MJ could've averaged 24 alongside Ewing (and won), whereas he needed to average the most humanly possible (scoring champ) to win alongside Pippen

Only Pippen needed his #1 option to be scoring champ to win - that's how inept and a flow scorer that pippen was

[insidious301]

This guy is so ridiculous you would assume he is trolling--but he sucks even at that. I think he is just flat out crazy. He genuinely thinks a player like Coleman>Pippen, that Kukoc>Pippen as an offensive option (news to Phil Jackson), that "Pippen sucked", etc.

These are your own handpicked metrics. Pippen crushes Ewing in category after category. No surprise: Pippen is top 20-30 all-time and Ewing in the top 35-40 range.

Prime Pippen>Ewing just as the numbers suggests. Now that OP cannot argue the facts, it will probably dawn on him that NY was also Jordan's best competition, and were also led by Ewing. Now we will see the walls close in. Although that might've already happened minutes ago with the "Pippen sucks" rhetoric. He is arguing like a female because the facts hurt his emotional state.

[Roundball_Rock]

Prime Pippen>Ewing just as the numbers suggests. Now that OP cannot argue the facts, it will probably dawn on him that NY was also Jordan's best competition, and were also led by Ewing. Now we will see the walls close in. Although that might've already happened minutes ago with the "Pippen sucks" rhetoric. He is arguing like a female because the facts hurt his emotional state.

Walls closing in indeed. They hate Pippen so much they make MJ look bad by saying his era was a joke.

*Pippen beats Ewing across the board in advanced stats. Pippen is considered higher all-time than Ewing. Ewing was the best player on the Bulls' top competition. If Pippen sucks, and Pippen>Ewing (even if not by much), and Pippen=Iggy, that means MJ's top comp was "led" by a player worse than Iggy.
*If Pippen=Iggy and Iggy is just another good player in today's era while Pippen was considered the best perimeter player of the era after MJ, that means today's (read: LeBron's) era was much tougher since a merely good player in this era would be a superstar in the weak 90's. The same logic would have to apply to Ewing. I guess Ewing would be Harrell today?

[insidious301]

Walls closing in indeed. They hate Pippen so much they make MJ look bad by saying his era was a joke.*Pippen beats Ewing across the board in advanced stats. Pippen is considered higher all-time than Ewing. Ewing was the best player on the Bulls' top competition. If Pippen sucks, and Pippen>Ewing (even if not by much), and Pippen=Iggy, that means MJ's top comp was "led" by a player worse than Iggy.*If Pippen=Iggy and Iggy is just another good player in today's era while Pippen was considered the best perimeter player of the era after MJ, that means today's (read: LeBron's) era was much tougher since a merely good player in this era would be a superstar in the weak 90's. The same logic would have to apply to Ewing. I guess Ewing would be Harrell today?

The people with that TP just cant ignore this either. By doing so you are fighting with reality. And thus you either stick with your claim, and get edified with logic and facts. Or you ignore the facts and concede by moving goalposts. Normally nothing is that black and white but this is the rationale they adopted.

[Roundball_Rock]

The people with that TP just cant ignore this either. By doing so you are fighting with reality. And thus you either stick with your claim, and get edified with logic and facts. Or you ignore the facts and concede by moving goalposts. Normally nothing is that black and white but this is the rationale they adopted.

They choose Door Number 3: being laughably inconsistent. MJ played in the greatest era--even though MVP candidates would be Iggy in this era.

[3ball]

Prime Pippen>Ewing just as the numbers suggests. Now that OP cannot argue the facts, it will probably dawn on him that NY was also Jordan's best competition, and were also led by Ewing. Now we will see the walls close in. Although that might've already happened minutes ago with the "Pippen sucks" rhetoric. He is arguing like a female because the facts hurt his emotional state.
5 year peaks

90-94' Ewing (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ewingpa01.html#1990-1994-sum:per_game)'.... 25.6.. 11.3.. 2.3.. 1.0.. 3.0.. 51.5 fg.. 23.2 PER
92-96' Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1992-1996-sum:per_game)... 20.5.... 7.5.. 6.0.. 2.3.. 0.9.. 48.3 fg.. 21.4 PER


Peak season

90' Ewing'.... 28.6.. 10.9.. 2.2.. 1.0.. 4.0.. 55.1 fg.. 25.8 PER
94' Pippen... 22.0.... 8.7.. 5.6.. 2.5.. 1.0.. 46.5 fg.. 23.2 PER


Head-to-Head

Ewing'. 94' 2nd Rd... 23.9.. 11.3.. 2.3.. 0.9.. 3.0.. 45.2 FG
Pippen 94' 2nd Rd... 21.7.... 7.0.. 5.3.. 2.3.. 1.0.. 40.9 FG


Playoffs

Ewing'.... made 94/99 Finals after MJ retirements
Pippen... missed 94/99 Finals after MJ retirements

[insidious301]

The numbers from both players primes were already posted. So no need to cherrypick.



WS/48: Pippen .185, Ewing .172
BPM: Pippen 6.0, Ewing 4.0
OBPM: Pippen 3.9, Ewing 2.0
DBPM: Pippen 2.1, Ewing 2.0
PER: Ewing 22.5, Pippen 21.2
VORP: Pippen 45.9 (599 games), Ewing 44.7 (800 games)
VORP per 82: Pippen 6.3, Ewing 4.6
ORTG: Pippen 112, Ewing 108
TS %: Ewing 56%, Pippen 55%

7-2 in favor of Pippen. What's more, the advanced data all suggests Pippen had more impact.

[3ball]

The numbers from both players primes were already posted. So no need to cherrypick.



7-2 in favor of Pippen. What's more, the advanced data all suggests Pippen had more impact.

Ewing could carry an offense and a team

Pippen couldn't.. that's why Ewing made the 94 Finals and Pippen didn't.. Ewing also carried #1 defenses with 3-4 bpg

Furthermore, Ewing's raw stats and PER destroy Pippen, along with his peak and playoff stats/performance.. it's not close - everyone knew this in the 90's - no one was debating Pippen vs Ewing

[Roundball_Rock]

The numbers from both players primes were already posted. So no need to cherrypick.



7-2 in favor of Pippen. What's more, the advanced data all suggests Pippen had more impact.

Here is more data in graphic form, so easy for a child like 1-9ball to digest:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Ewing-player-card.png

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Pippen-GOAT-card.png

Their CORP levels by year.

Ewing:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/P-Ewing-seasonal-valuations.png

Pippen:

https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Pippen-seasonal-valuations.png

Pippen had 6-7 MVP caliber CORP seasons and Ewing 3-4 (both have one season right on the borderline between "weak MVP" and "all-NBA").

What is notable is Pippen's best came with the team being contenders while Ewing was doing it on bad or average teams, outside of 92'--his numbers dipped as the team became good. It is easier to rack up stats on a 39 win team than on a 72 win team.

[insidious301]

Ewing could carry an offense and a team

Pippen couldn't.. that's why Ewing made the 94 Finals and Pippen didn't.. Ewing also carried #1 defenses with 3-4 bpg

Furthermore, Ewing's raw stats and PER destroy Pippen, along with his peak and playoff stats/performance.. it's not close - everyone knew this in the 90's - no one was debating Pippen vs Ewing

You can claim anything you want. I don't care what you tell yourself to sleep at night. Here is a fact you are not getting around however: The numbers used in your original argument, that were also used to degrade Pippen, also paint him as a better player than Ewing. And we know that Ewing led NY who was Chicago's best competition.

Class is in session.

[3ball]

You can claim anything you want. I don't care what you tell yourself to sleep at night. Here is a fact you are not getting around however: The numbers used in your original argument, that were also used to degrade Pippen, also paint him as a better player than Ewing. And we know that Ewing led NY who was Chicago's best competition.

Class is in session.

The most important stats that I mentioned were ppg, efficiency, PER and ORTG - Ewing is far superior to Pippen in all of these, so what are you blabbering about

And the Pistons were the toughest comp for Jordan... Or Shaq/Penny if we're going by sheer talent.. or Reggie's Pacers... So the Knicks were 1 of many great Eastern contenders

So you're wrong about everything

[insidious301]

The most important stats that I mentioned were ppg, efficiency, PER and ORTG - Ewing is far superior to Pippen in all of these, so what are you blabbering about

And the Pistons were the toughest comp for Jordan... Or Shaq/Penny if we're going by sheer talent.. or Reggie's Pacers... So the Knicks were 1 of many great Eastern contenders

So you're wrong about everything

You also brought up ORTG and winshares which are always your foundation. Now you're moving goalposts just like I said you would do. Look, if you are that scared of your own shadow, and refuse to stand by you our freaking claims, don't make proclamations you cant support.

[insidious301]

Meanwhile.......


WS/48: Pippen .185, Ewing .172
BPM: Pippen 6.0, Ewing 4.0
OBPM: Pippen 3.9, Ewing 2.0
DBPM: Pippen 2.1, Ewing 2.0
PER: Ewing 22.5, Pippen 21.2
VORP: Pippen 45.9 (599 games), Ewing 44.7 (800 games)
VORP per 82: Pippen 6.3, Ewing 4.6
ORTG: Pippen 112, Ewing 108
TS %: Ewing 56%, Pippen 55%

Prime Ewing vs Prime Pippen. At their best from roughly 9 seasons of data. These are the facts, and that is all people care about.

[Roundball_Rock]

You can claim anything you want. I don't care what you tell yourself to sleep at night. Here is a fact you are not getting around however: The numbers used in your original argument, that were also used to degrade Pippen, also paint him as a better player than Ewing. And we know that Ewing led NY who was Chicago's best competition.


https://media.giphy.com/media/xT9DPhONuz1SpCONiM/giphy.gif

[AussieSteve]

3ball's all time top 12 player peaks

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Harden
4. Rick Barry
5. Kobe
6. Kareem
7. Baylor
8. McAdoo
9. Archibald
10. Gervin
11. AI
12. Bernard King


Ppg is all that matters, so if he's being consistent this has to be his top 12.

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball's all time top 12 player peaks

1. Wilt
2. MJ
3. Harden
4. Rick Barry
5. Kobe
6. Kareem
7. Baylor
8. McAdoo
9. Archibald
10. Gervin
11. AI
12. Bernard King


Ppg is all that matters, so if he's being consistent this has to be his top 12.

:lol

True, Wilt must be the GOAT then.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What's the punch count for 3bot's face? lol

Debunked and out-debated at every turn. That is par for the course though, and the real kicker is that clown never even watched Prime Jordan. Just another one of these reformed Kobe fans who get all their "knowledge" off Youtube highlights :oldlol:

[Axe]

Almost 30 years after mj's first ever chip in the league and he's still fuming about tree trunk pippen. :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Almost 30 years after mj's first ever chip in the league and he's still fuming about tree trunk pippen. :oldlol:

Careful. You'll get Samuraiswish swinging in here like Tarzan.

[SouBeachTalents]

So there were 30 better players in the 90's, yet Pippen was consistently outplaying their opponent's 2nd option, especially during the first 3peat. Sounds like a trash ass era

[3ball]

You also brought up ORTG and winshares which are always your foundation. Now you're moving goalposts just like I said you would do. Look, if you are that scared of your own shadow, and refuse to stand by you our freaking claims, don't make proclamations you cant support.

No, you're making up an argument that i didn't say, aka lying

I said Pippen has weak PPG, PER, OBPM, WS/48, TS, and ORTG... This is a fact and showing that Ewing trails in 2 of the categories means nothing.

In addition to everyone beating Pippen statistically, they beat him in regular season peak and Playoffs

[RRR3]

Careful. You'll get Samuraiswish swinging in here like Tarzan.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[3ball]

So there were 30 better players in the 90's, yet Pippen was consistently outplaying their opponent's 2nd option, especially during the first 3peat. Sounds like a trash ass era
Pippen was outscored or matched with better efficiency in 42% of playoff series

So no... Pippen was getting destroyed all the time

Look at the 98' ECF when Smits got 16 on 55% and Pippen 16 on 39%.. the only reason the series went 7 is because Pippen underperformed... Only Pippen.. Ditto the 92' ECSF when X-man destroyed him, or the 93' 1st round when Willis and Dominique crushed him... Or the 88-90 Playoffs when Dumars and Ron Harper outplayed him.. or the 99' and 00' Playoffs when Kobe destroyed him... Did I mention the 96' Finals when Pippen had the worst 2nd option performance ever?..

so no - Pippen routinely got destroyed and made things harder on mj than another 2nd option would.. Pippen/Gasol are the only modern sidekicks that never got FMVP or averaged 25-30 in Finals... Parker, Worthy, Dumars got FMVP... Wade, Kyrie, Mchale, and Curry averaged 25-30 in the Finals...

Nobody won 2+ rings without their sidekick getting a FMVP or 25-30 ppg, so how could anyone win rings with Pippen? (Or Gasol)?... Only the most skilled ever could win with them, aka MJ/Kobe

[Roundball_Rock]

What's the punch count for 3bot's face? lol

Debunked and out-debated at every turn. That is par for the course though, and the real kicker is that clown never even watched Prime Jordan. Just another one of these reformed Kobe fans who get all their "knowledge" off Youtube highlights :oldlol:

:lol

You know how you can tell 1-9ball is getting decimated, even by his low standards? His betas IMKobe and tpols have quietly cut and run and left him hanging. If they aren't willing to defend their hero 1-9ball, that tells you everything...


Careful. You'll get Samuraiswish swinging in here like Tarzan.

No wonder they want to downplay Pippen's D so much...:oldlol:


So there were 30 better players in the 90's, yet Pippen was consistently outplaying their opponent's 2nd option, especially during the first 3peat.

All roads of "Pippen sucks" lead back to MJ playing in a joke era where Iggy would be a MVP candidate. :oldlol:

These "MJ fans" are doing a disservice to MJ on so many levels. Kuniva likely is on to something about reformed Kobe stans masquerading as MJ stans.

[insidious301]

No, you're making up an argument that i didn't say, aka lying


BPM means nothing and doesn't offset Pippen's weak PPG, TS, PER, WS/48, OBPM, ORTG, assist %

This is what you posted on page 2. Once again, if Pippen had weak winshares, obpm & ortg, then so did Ewing. And we all know Ewing led the best team 90s Jordan faced. We also know that Ewing then was a perennial top 10 player. This is all documented, so your dishonest claims are easily corrected.

To go along with that, a superior measure in BPM also paints Pippen better. These are the only facts people care about.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is what you posted on page 2. Once again, if Pippen had weak winshares, obpm & ortg, then so did Ewing. And we all know Ewing led the best team 90s Jordan faced. We also know that Ewing then was a perennial top 10 player. This is all documented, so your dishonest claims are easily corrected.

To go along with that, a superior measure in BPM also paints Pippen better. These are the only facts people care about.

Sad isn't it? 1-9ball lies so much he can't keep his lies and deception straight.

[Axe]

Careful. You'll get Samuraiswish swinging in here like Tarzan.
So? Get him banned again then, boyo.

[Vino24]

Op getting an asswhooping yet again :roll:

[3ball]

Op getting an asswhooping yet again :roll:

No one refuted the thread title regarding regular season peaks and playoff performance

Instead, they started bragging how Pippen beat Ewing in 2 of the 6 categories I mentioned as pippen's weakness..