Kawhi can eliminate 15 different MVPS by the end of season [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 05:04 AM

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/51a2e9abe4b01fcfc7489cbe/1490760190625-LVGRI22C53Z30O0HD61A/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kGzM-1ZJqVo2tbWjI-vAFRIUqsxRUqqbr1mOJYKfIPR7LoDQ9mXPOjoJoqy81S2I8N_N 4V1vUb5AoIIIbLZhVYxCRW4BPu10St3TBAUQYVKcYNId7EH30w 3XHZ3TLKbf4dDy87Fr5yCIl6Ygp0h-flW-MeU6JCPkV5FPir_B0MKd/image-asset.jpeg

We just keep winning.

2014 kawhi vs Durant

Game 1 - Kawhi leads spurs in minutes at 39 and spurs blow out Thunder by 17 points.

Game 2 - Spurs blow out Thunder by 42 points

Game 5 - Kawhi leads spurs in minutes and they blow out Thunder by 28 points

Game 6 - Kawhi leads spurs in 44 minutes and closes out Thunder.

Series offensive rating for both teams: Thunder at 103 and spurs at 114

Durant locked up at 56% TS and 105 offensive rating

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 05:10 AM

You're taking this too far already, buddy. If the spurs were actually a sorry ass team, then they wouldn't make more than 20 consecutive playoff berths in a much stacked western conference. Also, kawhi has never played more than 75 rs games in his ongoing career yet. :confusedshrug:

Maybe if you just shut your mouth and listen to people who know the game better then you do, you may understand. 2016 I said they were sorry, that's when Duncan was 40 years old, Manu/Parker all turned into role players. Being good for a long time doesn't mean you can't decline eventually.

Kawhi had 72 game season in 2017 which was enough games to win MVP for Harden in 2018. Kawhi should of won that year, media just fell into Westbrook's triple double gimmick. Even this year in 2019-20 season, Kawhi only played a total of 3 games less then Giannis in the pre seeding games? So this actually qualified as Kawhi's 3rd MVP level season.

Gray GOAT

08-11-2020, 05:11 AM

Kawhi Leonard achievements: had most minutes in a game. :oldlol: He scored respectively 16, 4, 10, 10, 14 and 17 points. Durant meanwhile averaged 26 on 48%. :applause:

GimmeThat

08-11-2020, 05:49 AM

Less scared, he eliminated Durant in 2014. LeBron has never eliminated Harden. 2016 Kawhi was eliminated by Durant/Westbrook but Anthony Davis is way better then Lamarcus Aldridge. Kawhi basically carried a sorry ass team to 67 wins in 2016, then in playoffs he had the 16th highest BPM of all time.

here's my follow up question, would you say beating a team 4-0 makes you the better team than going 4-2. are there any possibilities in which having the opportunity to go 4-0, but extending it to 4-2 proves your team to be more champion worthy.

Axe

08-11-2020, 06:38 AM

Maybe if you just shut your mouth and listen to people who know the game better then you do, you may understand. 2016 I said they were sorry, that's when Duncan was 40 years old, Manu/Parker all turned into role players. Being good for a long time doesn't mean you can't decline eventually.

Kawhi had 72 game season in 2017 which was enough games to win MVP for Harden in 2018. Kawhi should of won that year, media just fell into Westbrook's triple double gimmick. Even this year in 2019-20 season, Kawhi only played a total of 3 games less then Giannis in the pre seeding games? So this actually qualified as Kawhi's 3rd MVP level season.
Kawhi was probably in his peak during those times but just because he is doesn't mean his teammates already became a bunch of scrubs when he was still with them. And in the recent years, you do realize that the league usually handed over the mvp trophies towards players who got their own scoring titles in the very same years as well (e.g. '14 durant, '16 curry, '17 westbrook & '18 harden)? I bet you didn't because you sound like you don't know that the klaw has yet to win a scoring title, despite being a great postseason player.

Overdrive

08-11-2020, 07:14 AM

2014 kawhi vs Durant

Game 1 - Kawhi leads spurs in minutes at 39 and spurs blow out Thunder by 17 points.

Game 2 - Spurs blow out Thunder by 42 points

Game 5 - Kawhi leads spurs in minutes and they blow out Thunder by 28 points

Game 6 - Kawhi leads spurs in 44 minutes and closes out Thunder.

Series offensive rating for both teams: Thunder at 103 and spurs at 114

Durant locked up at 56% TS and 105 offensive rating

Claim to fame: "leads in minutes". Not points, assists, rebounds, steals or blocks. Minutes...

Winners of 15 different MVPs isn't 15 different MVPs.

ImKobe

08-11-2020, 07:19 AM

2014 kawhi vs Durant

Game 1 - Kawhi leads spurs in minutes at 39 and spurs blow out Thunder by 17 points.

Game 2 - Spurs blow out Thunder by 42 points

Game 5 - Kawhi leads spurs in minutes and they blow out Thunder by 28 points

Game 6 - Kawhi leads spurs in 44 minutes and closes out Thunder.

Series offensive rating for both teams: Thunder at 103 and spurs at 114

Durant locked up at 56% TS and 105 offensive rating

That's not "locked up" lol, Durant shot 48% or better in 3 out of 4 losses. Kawhi averaged 11.8 ppg on 41.2%FG/48.7%TS for the series.

Kblaze8855

08-11-2020, 08:27 AM

15 different MVPs. Names 4. Isiah Thomas eliminated 19 different MVPs. :eek: Greatest to ever do it?

Yea....

Gus Williams eliminated 7 or 8 in one post season by this absurd standard(depending on if you count partial series Walton along with 6 mvp Kareem and 1 Mvp Unseld). Karl Malone knocked out 7 in one post season without even winning the title. Moses Malone knocked out 9 in one series in 1981.....

RRR3

08-11-2020, 09:43 AM

OP getting ruthlessly eviscerated

Kblaze8855

08-11-2020, 10:04 AM

OP getting ruthlessly eviscerated

He stays making troll ass points and fabricating shit. Like Giannis playing 3 games more than Leonard due to total minutes as if playing low minutes due to record blowouts is the same thing as sitting out games. And now talking total number of mvps among people who lost? The 85 Celtics beat “15” mvps that one year and I’m not sure that would be the record either. At this point you either have to ban 30 people or ignore them all. You ban them and they are eventually allowed back so.....just is what it is. I’m not sitting around finding all the alts all day.

Im just at my desk between bullshitting.

RRR3

08-11-2020, 10:11 AM

He stays making troll ass points and fabricating shit. Like Giannis playing 3 games more than Leonard due to total minutes as if playing low minutes due to record blowouts is the same thing as sitting out games. And now talking total number of mvps among people who lost? The 85 Celtics beat “15” mvps that one year and I’m not sure that would be the record either. At this point you either have to ban 30 people or ignore them all. You ban them and they are eventually allowed back so.....just is what it is. I’m not sitting around finding all the alts all day.

Im just at my desk between bullshitting.
I’ll give OP credit, at least he’s original. We have lots of delusional stans for MJ, Kobe and LeBron, but he’s the only one for Kawhi. That said, Kawhi being the GOAT is such a hard position to argue I’m not sure why he bothers.

Kblaze8855

08-11-2020, 11:33 AM

I suppose if you have to be a nut be unique.

KobesFinger

08-11-2020, 11:45 AM

If the Clippers eliminate the Lakers, why would LeBron count again if he's already on your list?

FireDavidKahn

08-11-2020, 11:54 AM

The circumstances weren't the same. Kawhi faced these MVPS all in their primes. Kawhi also led every series in GmSc.

You listed 4 different MVP's

FireDavidKahn

08-11-2020, 11:56 AM

Less scared, he eliminated Durant in 2014. LeBron has never eliminated Harden. 2016 Kawhi was eliminated by Durant/Westbrook but Anthony Davis is way better then Lamarcus Aldridge. Kawhi basically carried a sorry ass team to 67 wins in 2016, then in playoffs he had the 16th highest BPM of all time.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-finals-heat-vs-thunder.html

Axe

08-11-2020, 12:00 PM

Yikes...

It seems his stanning already made him a bit delusional.

insidious301

08-11-2020, 12:06 PM

The circumstances weren't the same. Kawhi faced these MVPS all in their primes. Kawhi also led every series in GmSc.

Kawhi wasn't the best player on the 2014 Spurs. Duncan & Ginobili led the team in Playoff PER, which means Kawhi would only beat 5 different MVPs by the end of the season. To your credit however you were partially correct with it being a different circumstance.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 01:52 PM

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2012-nba-finals-heat-vs-thunder.html

The key words I used "in their primes"

2012 harden is not prime form, no way.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 01:54 PM

Kawhi wasn't the best player on the 2014 Spurs. Duncan & Ginobili led the team in Playoff PER, which means Kawhi would only beat 5 different MVPs by the end of the season. To your credit however you were partially correct with it being a different circumstance.

PER hahahha that's just 1 meaningless stat who cares. Kawhi has the best on/off stats and advanced stats during the 2014 run.

insidious301

08-11-2020, 02:14 PM

PER hahahha that's just 1 meaningless stat who cares. Kawhi has the best on/off stats and advanced stats during the 2014 run.

That was just 1 stat, the same number you used. Now you're backtracking.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 02:37 PM

That was just 1 stat, the same number you used. Now you're backtracking.

Show me when I used PER as the be all end all to an argument. I wouldn't be caught dead saying that.

insidious301

08-11-2020, 02:44 PM

Show me when I used PER as the be all end all to an argument. I wouldn't be caught dead saying that.

You're not understanding me. You used one metric just like I used. But now that you're moving goal posts and including other stats, know that Duncan & Ginobili led the Spurs in more of them. By your own professed OP, Kawhi would then only eliminate 9 MVPs. That is a far cry from 15.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 02:53 PM

You're not understanding me. You used one metric just like I used. But now that you're moving goal posts and including other stats, know that Duncan & Ginobili led the Spurs in more of them. By your own professed OP, Kawhi would then only eliminate 9 MVPs. That is a far cry from 15.

2014 playoffs Kawhi beats Duncan in BPM, win shares, WS/48, VORP and on/off. That's not 1 metric.

Kawhi is also in spurs best 2 man lineup, 3 man lineup, 4 man lineup.

insidious301

08-11-2020, 02:59 PM

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 03:23 PM

I used Ginobili as well. He had the same number of points as Kawhi but a higher BPM & PER. Also a higher on/off than Kawhi at +12.2. In the playoffs, Ginobili clearly had more impact. This negates your original claim.

Manu played 150 minutes less then Kawhi, which disqualifies him. Manu would have to put up overwhelming numbers to make up that minute gap, like 2005 Manu.

insidious301

08-11-2020, 03:30 PM

Manu played 150 minutes less then Kawhi, which disqualifies him. Manu would have to put up overwhelming numbers to make up that minute gap, like 2005 Manu.

Manu averaged the same number of points as Playoff Kawhi. In less minutes. That is an argument for him. Not against. This shows Manu was more efifcient, and had higher impact in less minutes

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 03:42 PM

Manu averaged the same number of points as Playoff Kawhi. In less minutes. That is an argument for him. Not against. This shows Manu was more efifcient, and had higher impact in less minutes

He shot 7% worse FG then Kawhi. Also the finals Manu was 4th in GmSc. Manu also never led the team in GmSc during a series, while Kawhi led the team in GmSc in two different series. Then when you look at the defense gap? Kawhi guarding Durant and LeBron. Its easily Kawhi over Manu overall. But Manu can have a case for 2nd or 3rd best.

Smoke117

08-11-2020, 03:43 PM

OP is becoming as obnoxious as the Jordan, Bran, and Kobe stains.

insidious301

08-11-2020, 03:50 PM

He shot 7% worse FG then Kawhi. Also the finals Manu was 4th in GmSc. Manu also never led the team in GmSc during a series, while Kawhi led the team in GmSc in two different series. Then when you look at the defense gap? Kawhi guarding Durant and LeBron. Its easily Kawhi over Manu overall. But Manu can have a case for 2nd or 3rd best.

They both shot around 60% true shooting while Manu was a better freethrow shooter. In the finals, Manu had a better GmSc rate, BPM, PER & more assists. Kawhi only had better shooting percentages quite frankly. And that is just a 5 game sample. For the entire playoffs, Manu was the Spurs MVP.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 04:17 PM

They both shot around 60% true shooting while Manu was a better freethrow shooter. In the finals, Manu had a better GmSc rate, BPM, PER & more assists. Kawhi only had better shooting percentages quite frankly. And that is just a 5 game sample. For the entire playoffs, Manu was the Spurs MVP.

You lack minutes, lack GmSc, lack win shares, lack VORP, lack defensive responsibility. You lack an actual argument worth discussing.

insidious301

08-11-2020, 04:50 PM

You lack minutes, lack GmSc, lack win shares, lack VORP, lack defensive responsibility. You lack an actual argument worth discussing.

Playoff Manu scored the same points as Kawhi did in less minutes. And beat him in overall impact like on/off. Manu proved his worth in less time, so he makes the argument himself. Blame yourself for not understanding the basics here.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 08:17 PM

Playoff Manu scored the same points as Kawhi did in less minutes. And beat him in overall impact like on/off. Manu proved his worth in less time, so he makes the argument himself. Blame yourself for not understanding the basics here.

Manu's on/off was better because he was in the 2nd unit and playing against 2nd unit players a lot more ofton. Can you name any other title runs when the player who was 5th in total minutes was the best player? If you can, I will listen to your argument.

Kawhi basically led the team in minutes, he was -16 total minutes behind Duncan.

SATAN

08-11-2020, 08:25 PM

:facepalm

bigbrownschaub

08-11-2020, 08:42 PM

i think u gotta check your numbers b

insidious301

08-11-2020, 08:49 PM

Manu's on/off was better because he was in the 2nd unit and playing against 2nd unit players a lot more ofton. Can you name any other title runs when the player who was 5th in total minutes was the best player? If you can, I will listen to your argument.

So did Kawhi. Manu finished the games making your point a dubious one. He also played 26 minutes to Kawhi's 33. Not a big difference when you realize he averaged the same points but more assists than Kawhi. The argument favors Manu if anything. Its time to change your OP to "9 MVPs" which is hardly a record.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 09:14 PM

So did Kawhi. Manu finished the games making your point a dubious one. He also played 26 minutes to Kawhi's 33. Not a big difference when you realize he averaged the same points but more assists than Kawhi. The argument favors Manu if anything. Its time to change your OP to "9 MVPs" which is hardly a record.

This thread is about the series the MVPS were eliminated. 2014 finals was the series that year, nothing else. What's the argument that Manu was better then Kawhi in 2014 finals? Zero argument. Thread still stands.

insidious301

08-11-2020, 09:38 PM

This thread is about the series the MVPS were eliminated. 2014 finals was the series that year, nothing else. What's the argument that Manu was better then Kawhi in 2014 finals? Zero argument. Thread still stands.

Which means nothing when we know that Playoff Manu, overall, was the more impactful player. In the finals it was Manu who had a better GmSc rate, BPM rate, PER rate & averaged more assists. All in less minutes. With more minutes, he would have out-performed Kawhi handily. What's more is that eliminating 9 MVPs isn't even a record. There are a handful of players who accomplished that.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 10:10 PM

Which means nothing when we know that Playoff Manu, overall, was the more impactful player. In the finals it was Manu who had a better GmSc rate, BPM rate, PER rate & averaged more assists. All in less minutes. With more minutes, he would have out-performed Kawhi handily. What's more is that eliminating 9 MVPs isn't even a record. There are a handful of players who accomplished that.

"With more minutes he could have"

You should of told me that was your argument, I would of never wasted my time,

insidious301

08-11-2020, 10:17 PM

"With more minutes he could have"

You should of told me that was your argument, I would of never wasted my time,

You should have* I already posted the numbers and they were better than Kawhi's. When I say handily that means completely. In other words, if Manu played a few more minutes it would not be close.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 10:33 PM

You should have* I already posted the numbers and they were better than Kawhi's. When I say handily that means completely. In other words, if Manu played a few more minutes it would not be close.

Argument is based on potential pretty much. What he could of done. Kawhi is starting but Manu is off the bench, I don't know why that's hard for you to understand. Stick to grammar lessons and stop talking basketball.

insidious301

08-11-2020, 10:41 PM

Argument is based on potential pretty much. What he could of done. Kawhi is starting but Manu is off the bench, I don't know why that's hard for you to understand. Stick to grammar lessons and stop talking basketball.

Now you are being dishonest. I already made a case based on the numbers. At the very least, Manu has an argument for just his finals play. And a clear case for overall postseason play. The rate metrics reiterate what we know, so Manu playing like 5 more minutes would make the comparison lopsided. School is in session, HBK.

GimmeThat

08-11-2020, 10:41 PM

You can't predict what GOAT level players do. Kareem at 32 years old had arguably his best year. So by 2023 Kawhi will probably still be dropping 35/10/4 in playoff series and who knows? He could rack up an MVP in his 30s.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"With more minutes he could have"

You should of told me that was your argument, I would of never wasted my time,

Argument is based on potential pretty much. What he could of done. Kawhi is starting but Manu is off the bench, I don't know why that's hard for you to understand. Stick to grammar lessons and stop talking basketball.

Axe

08-11-2020, 11:32 PM

highwhey

08-11-2020, 11:33 PM

i think u gotta check your numbers b

that public education gave him strong maths

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 11:46 PM

Now you are being dishonest. I already made a case based on the numbers. At the very least, Manu has an argument for just his finals play. And a clear case for overall postseason play. The rate metrics reiterate what we know, so Manu playing like 5 more minutes would make the comparison lopsided. School is in session, HBK.

You are delusional or you didn't watch a minute of the 2014 playoffs. Manu was used as a role player post 2011 and was no longer a star. He was a guy who could maybe steal you a game in a series but that's it. Kawhi on the other hand was the leader in GmSc in 2nd round, leader in minutes in 3rd round, leader in GmSc in 4th round. I don't know what to tell you. I like Manu as well and have stuck up for him in the past but you're off base here.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 11:48 PM

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm just saying don't be predicting the rest of Kawhi's entire career when he's still in his 20s. I'm not arguing this per minute bullshit. A guy who didn't start 1 game and was 5th in total minutes was the best player on a title team? That's what this clown is arguing about Manu in 2014.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-11-2020, 11:54 PM

i think u gotta check your numbers b

Kawhi has already eliminated 9 MVPS. If he eliminates LeBron/Giannis this year? That's 6 more MVPS. 9 + 6 = 15

GimmeThat

08-12-2020, 12:11 AM

I'm just saying don't be predicting the rest of Kawhi's entire career when he's still in his 20s. I'm not arguing this per minute bullshit. A guy who didn't start 1 game and was 5th in total minutes was the best player on a title team? That's what this clown is arguing about Manu in 2014.

Game 1 Spurs W Kawhi +11 Manu +22
Game 2 Spurs L Kawhi -6 Manu +4
Game 3 Spurs W Kawhi +19 Manu +9
Game 4 Spurs W Kawhi +23 Manu +27
Game 5 Spurs W Kawhi +15 Manu + 21

kawhileonard2

08-12-2020, 12:12 AM

Kawhi is Lebron's daddy

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 12:12 AM

Game 1 Spurs W Kawhi +11 Manu +22
Game 2 Spurs L Kawhi -6 Manu +4
Game 3 Spurs W Kawhi +19 Manu +9
Game 4 Spurs W Kawhi +23 Manu +27
Game 5 Spurs W Kawhi +15 Manu + 21

Basketball reference created a better stat single game BPM. List off that instead.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 12:15 AM

Kawhi is Lebron's daddy

Yeah kawhi only has to beat mavs and then Nuggets or Thunder. Pretty damn easy path. We will see if LeBron can get past Harden/Westbrook the 2nd round. Anthony Davis may leave Lebron's ass if they get knocked out 1st round by Blazers.

GimmeThat

08-12-2020, 12:34 AM

Basketball reference created a better stat single game BPM. List off that instead.

Game 1 Lebron 8.7 Kawhi -5.9
Game 2 Lebron 14.6 Kawhi -1.7
Game 3 Lebron 9.1 Kawhi 16
Game 4 Lebron 11.2 Kawhi 15.9
Game 5 Lebron 16.5 Kawhi 11.4

SATAN

08-12-2020, 12:38 AM

:roll:

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 01:03 AM

Game 1 Lebron 8.7 Kawhi -5.9
Game 2 Lebron 14.6 Kawhi -1.7
Game 3 Lebron 9.1 Kawhi 16
Game 4 Lebron 11.2 Kawhi 15.9
Game 5 Lebron 16.5 Kawhi 11.4

Rookie Kawhi out playing peak LeBron in 2 finals wins hahahah wow. Technically speaking, kawhi was still a rookie. Duncan went 4 years college and was a rookie at the same age as Kawhi in 2014 finals.

Besides, the debate was about Kawhi vs the rest of his teammates.

FireDavidKahn

08-12-2020, 01:10 AM

The key words I used "in their primes"

2012 harden is not prime form, no way.

You never said anything of the sort in your post I quoted:facepalm

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 01:30 AM

2014 LeBron (4)
2017 Harden (1)
2019 Giannis (2)
2019 Curry (2)

Kawhi has already eliminated all these MVPS in their primes. Now if Kawhi eliminates LeBron/Giannis this year? That will total up for a jaw dropping 15 different MVPS eliminated by Kawhi 'GOAT' Leonard. Wow

You never said anything of the sort in your post I quoted:facepalm

Going into a thread and not even reading original post :facepalm

I put it in bold for you.

GimmeThat

08-12-2020, 02:38 AM

Rookie Kawhi out playing peak LeBron in 2 finals wins hahahah wow. Technically speaking, kawhi was still a rookie. Duncan went 4 years college and was a rookie at the same age as Kawhi in 2014 finals.

Besides, the debate was about Kawhi vs the rest of his teammates.

13-14

% of FG Ast'd Lebron 2P .318% 3P .371% Kawhi 2P .352% 3P .935%

+/- per 100 poss Lebron On +4.3 On-Off +8.6 Kawhi On +12.5 On-Off +7

if this debate is about Kawhi vs the rest of his teammates, you may as well title it, Spurs eliminated multiple MVPS, and Kawhi played a distinguished role in it

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 03:03 AM

13-14

% of FG Ast'd Lebron 2P .318% 3P .371% Kawhi 2P .352% 3P .935%

+/- per 100 poss Lebron On +4.3 On-Off +8.6 Kawhi On +12.5 On-Off +7

if this debate is about Kawhi vs the rest of his teammates, you may as well title it, Spurs eliminated multiple MVPS, and Kawhi played a distinguished role in it

Kawhi led spurs in GmSc, defended Lebron, led spurs in total BPM. He was the spurs best player that series and not even close. The only guy with defense that comes close to Kawhi is Duncan and lets look at their PPG in the 3 straight wins

Kawhi: 24PPG
Duncan: 12PPG

GimmeThat

08-12-2020, 03:18 AM

Kawhi led spurs in GmSc, defended Lebron, led spurs in total BPM. He was the spurs best player that series and not even close. The only guy with defense that comes close to Kawhi is Duncan and lets look at their PPG in the 3 straight wins

Kawhi: 24PPG
Duncan: 12PPG

so you're saying a guy who fouled out in the only loss, and posted numbers in games with margins of 15, 19, 21, and 17 was the absolute best player on the team, and there were no other teammates came close.

well, I think the board is prepared for you to openly announce your fetish of getting gang-banged now.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 03:26 AM

so you're saying a guy who fouled out in the only loss, and posted numbers in games with margins of 15, 19, 21, and 17 was the absolute best player on the team, and there were no other teammates came close.

well, I think the board is prepared for you to openly announce your fetish of getting gang-banged now.

All blowouts because Kawhi's son LeBron kept playing passive. It was Kawhi's defense that did this to him. On top of that, Kawhi carried Duncan on scoring in the 3 straight wins (24PPG to 12PPG). Overall clear cut best player.

ImKobe

08-12-2020, 03:27 AM

so you're saying a guy who fouled out in the only loss, and posted numbers in games with margins of 15, 19, 21, and 17 was the absolute best player on the team, and there were no other teammates came close.

well, I think the board is prepared for you to openly announce your fetish of getting gang-banged now.

He was in that series, which is why he won FMVP. Best defender and by far the best player on his team in 3 straight wins.

Game 3 - Kawhi 29, Duncan 14, Manu 11
Game 4 - Kawhi 20, Duncan 10, Manu 7
Game 5 - Kawhi 22, Manu 19, Duncan 14

GimmeThat

08-12-2020, 03:50 AM

He was in that series, which is why he won FMVP. Best defender and by far the best player on his team in 3 straight wins.

Game 3 - Kawhi 29, Duncan 14, Manu 11
Game 4 - Kawhi 20, Duncan 10, Manu 7
Game 5 - Kawhi 22, Manu 19, Duncan 14

I still don't get why a 15th pick stepping up in a blow out make him the lock for best player, wouldn't that be the front office?

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 04:14 AM

I still don't get why a 15th pick stepping up in a blow out make him the lock for best player, wouldn't that be the front office?

Spurs are the most balanced dynasty of all time

1999/2003 rings best player - Tim Duncan

2005/2007 rings best player - Manu

2014 ring best player - Kawhi

ImKobe

08-12-2020, 04:15 AM

I still don't get why a 15th pick stepping up in a blow out make him the lock for best player, wouldn't that be the front office?

They were blowouts because of him. some stuff from the 2014 Finals

In Game 3, James had a series-high 73 offensive touches but attempted only 14 shots. James was guarded by Leonard on 65 percent of the Heat’s possessions with James on the court in Game 3, the most Leonard has defended James in any game this series.

Let’s take a look at how Leonard has made LeBron’s life more difficult in the NBA Finals.

Only 17 percent of LeBron’s touches against Leonard in the Finals have resulted in a field goal attempt. That’s half the rate James has against all other defenders. That means Leonard has been successful forcing him to pass the ball or turn it over.

Leonard has been successful keeping the ball out of LeBron’s hands. James has been held without a touch on 35 percent of the Heat’s possessions when he’s guarded by Leonard. Against all other defenders he’s held without a touch 25 percent of the time.

James has driven to the basket on 13 percent of his touches against Leonard. That rate jumps to 22 percent against all other defenders. Leonard has been able to keep James in front of him and force tough angles to keep him away from the basket.

It all equals more Leonard vs James

more from another forum

Games 3-4-5
Lebron scored 51 of his 81 points (63%) being down 15+
Leonard scored 27 of his 71 points (38%) being up 15+
Leonard outscored Lebron 44-30 in non-blowout situations

Leonard 23.7 ppg on 69%
LeBron 27.0 ppg on 55%
(Leonard 14% more efficient)

And again, Lebron stats were heavily padded in garbage time, in non blowout situations Leonard outscored him

Leonard 9.3 rpg
LeBron 7.7 rpg

Leonard 2.0 spg
LeBron 1.7 spg

Leonard 2.0 bpg
LeBron 0.7 bpg

Leonard 2.3 apg with 1.7 TOpg
LeBron 4.7 apg with 3.7 TOpg
Leonard had a slightly better ast:TO ratio

Through games 3-4-5, Leonard scored much more efficiently (and more in non blowout situations) and outrebounded, outstole, and outblocked Lebron with a better ast:TO ratio

Game 3
Lebron had 14 points and 0 TO in first quarter, then 8 points and 7 TOs for the last 3 quarters. LeBron had 22-5-7-5 with 7 TOs on 64%, Wade had 22-4-2-2 with 5 TOs on 67%. But over the last 3 quarters, LeBron had 8 points and 7 TOs to Wade's 20 points and 3 TOs. The Heat cut the lead from 15 to 9 without LeBron, after Wade subbed in for him, from the 5:00 to 1:00 mark of the 3rd quarter, but even with that help LeBron still lost.

Game 4
Lebron had 9 points in first half and the Heat were blown out by 19 at halftime. He padded his stats from there, and he did not score on Leonard in the first half.

Game 5
Lebron had 1 FG in 2nd quarter (2:30 mark) to bring the Heat within 5. Then he did not score again until the Heat were down 21 with 4:40 in the 3rd. LeBron shot 1-6 against Leonard this game.

So, if he was the Spurs' most efficient scorer for the series, and also outplayed the best player on the opposing team for 3 straight wins, does he not deserve to be recognized as the best player in the series? Obviously, it's tough to argue that Leonard was by far the Spurs' best player for the entire run, but he certainly was their best player when it came to them beating Miami, though they had great teamwork and others obviously deserve credit as well.

Phoenix

08-12-2020, 04:28 AM

Kawhi has already eliminated 9 MVPS. If he eliminates LeBron/Giannis this year? That's 6 more MVPS. 9 + 6 = 15

https://media.tenor.com/images/3ca516def557828aaa4a6b65bbc7decc/tenor.gif

Thank you for contributing to this great forum.

GimmeThat

08-12-2020, 04:33 AM

aj1987

08-12-2020, 04:37 AM

They were blowouts because of him. some stuff from the 2014 Finals

more from another forum

So, if he was the Spurs' most efficient scorer for the series, and also outplayed the best player on the opposing team for 3 straight wins, does he not deserve to be recognized as the best player in the series? Obviously, it's tough to argue that Leonard was by far the Spurs' best player for the entire run, but he certainly was their best player when it came to them beating Miami, though they had great teamwork and others obviously deserve credit as well.

Nice cherrypicking of stats right there. Kawhi was "statpadding" (according to the idiots definition on statpadding) as much as, if not more, than LeBron that series. You might want to go look up those games.

And no, he wasn't the best player that series. Swap LeBron and Kawhi, the Heat get blownout in even worse and it would've been a sweep. Not even close. That's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

ImKobe

08-12-2020, 04:55 AM

Nice cherrypicking of stats right there. Kawhi was "statpadding" (according to the idiots definition on statpadding) as much as, if not more, than LeBron that series. You might want to go look up those games.

And no, he wasn't the best player that series. Swap LeBron and Kawhi, the Heat get blownout in even worse and it would've been a sweep. Not even close. That's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Are you blind or something? Look at the difference in Kawhi's and Lebron's scoring in blowout scenarios, 63% vs 38% & he outscored him in non-blowout situations (games 3-5). You have to go to the hypothetical of swapping players on teams, and what does that really prove, other than you have no leg to stand on when it comes to the actual series? And I did not say that Kawhi was the best player for both teams in the series, but he was the best player on the winning team, he did outplay Lebron in 3 out of 4 wins if you actually watched the games, which is why he got the FMVP award. Anyone who watched the series knows this, but Lebron stans act as if it didn't happen.

Kawhi's defense was a big reason why the Heat's offense was as inefficient as it ended up being, he was all over Lebron in games 3-5, they were more successful the more he guarded James and the only way Lebron could consistently score was by using screens or getting out in transition, which is why he scored most of his points in garbage time in the 3 losses. It's not Kawhi's fault that the Heat's roster was constructed as such, that they essentially had 3 max players and guys on minimum deals, obviously the Spurs had the better overall roster, but that's not the point here. Lebron's not an effective off-ball player, the Heat's offense severely stagnated when he wasn't the one handling the ball with him just standing at the 3-PT line and not doing much of anything, the team was obviously worn down from the 3 Finals runs and the Spurs played outstanding defense and Kawhi was successful in limiting Lebron as much as he did. Lebron has nice shooting splits for the series, but he couldn't go off for 30 a game and provide Miami the spark he usually did offensively, as he was defended really well in most situations.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 05:05 AM

Are you blind or something? Look at the difference in Kawhi's and Lebron's scoring in blowout scenarios, 63% vs 38% & he outscored him in non-blowout situations (games 3-5). You have to go to the hypothetical of swapping players on teams, and what does that really prove, other than you have no leg to stand on when it comes to the actual series? And I did not say that Kawhi was the best player for both teams in the series, but he was the best player on the winning team, he did outplay Lebron in 3 out of 4 wins if you actually watched the games, which is why he got the FMVP award. Anyone who watched the series knows this, but Lebron stans act as if it didn't happen.

Kawhi's defense was a big reason why the Heat's offense was as inefficient as it ended up being, he was all over Lebron in games 3-5, they were more successful the more he guarded James and the only way Lebron could consistently score was by using screens or getting out in transition, which is why he scored most of his points in garbage time in the 3 losses. It's not Kawhi's fault that the Heat's roster was constructed as such, that they essentially had 3 max players and guys on minimum deals, obviously the Spurs had the better overall roster, but that's not the point here. Lebron's not an effective off-ball player, the Heat's offense severely stagnated when he wasn't the one handling the ball with him just standing at the 3-PT line and not doing much of anything, the team was obviously worn down from the 3 Finals runs and the Spurs played outstanding defense and Kawhi was successful in limiting Lebron as much as he did. Lebron has nice shooting splits for the series, but he couldn't go off for 30 a game and provide Miami the spark he usually did offensively, as he was defended really well in most situations.

ImKobe just got aj1987 on a pick and roll switch, did an Iso and buried him. Aj was the dumb slow center guarding a wing superstar on a switch and not standing a chance. Excellent post from imkobe

aj1987

08-12-2020, 05:13 AM

Are you blind or something? Look at the difference in Kawhi's and Lebron's scoring in blowout scenarios, 63% vs 38% & he outscored him in non-blowout situations (games 3-5).
Good lord, you're an idiot. That's why I said cherrypicked stats and put statpadding in quotes. Do you really want me to teach you AGAIN what statpadding is and how LeBron got the vast majority of his points when the games were still in reach?

You have to go to the hypothetical of swapping players on teams, and what does that really prove, other than you have no leg to stand on when it comes to the actual series?
Idiot. :facepalm

Yeah, LeBron averaged 28/8/4/2 on 68% TS% that series, compared to Leonard's 18/6/2/2/1 on 75% TS%. That's the actual series. Tell me how Kawhi was better than LeBron in that series? He wasn't. He just had a significantly better team.

And I did not say that Kawhi was the best player for both teams in the series, but he was the best player on the winning team
You literally said and I quote: " and also outplayed the best player on the opposing team for 3 straight wins, does he not deserve to be recognized as the best player in the series".

Yeah, no. Kawhi wasn't a better player than LeBron. Not even close.

he did outplay Lebron in 3 out of 4 wins if you actually watched the games, which is why he got the FMVP award. Anyone who watched the series knows this, but Lebron stans act as if it didn't happen.
He won the FMVP because the Spurs won and he was the best player on the team. Not that hard to understand. Also, Kawhi wasn't better than LeBron in G4 and G5. He was significantly better than LeBron in G3 though.

Kawhi's defense was a big reason why the Heat's offense was as inefficient as it ended up being
The Spurs were very good defensively, but Miami's shit defense was the main reason why we lost. Miami as a team was at 57% TS% for the series. You do know that that's higher than all but two of Kobe's PO runs, right?

which is why he scored most of his points in garbage time in the 3 losses.
Except for the FACT that LeBron only got around 3-4 PPG during "garbage" time and he did that on worse efficiency.

Lebron's not an effective off-ball player
Only idiots would make one of the GOAT playmakers and scorers play off ball.

the Heat's offense severely stagnated when he wasn't the one handling the ball with him just standing at the 3-PT line and not doing much of anything
Yeah, you really didn't watch that series and this just proves it. Try watching it first before you comment on it. Also, for the 20th time, Miami's offense was a lesser problem than its defense. Miami's defense cost us the series.

GimmeThat

08-12-2020, 05:15 AM

ImKobe just got aj1987 on a pick and roll switch, did an Iso and buried him. Aj was the dumb slow center guarding a wing superstar on a switch and not standing a chance. Excellent post from imkobe

more like one is Tim Duncan who could have given up the legacy for the money, and one is given up the money for the legacy and using that to bench mark player value

but hey, between you and me, it's just the classic rich gets richer, poor get poorer

ImKobe

08-12-2020, 05:26 AM

Good lord, you're an idiot. That's why I said cherrypicked stats and put statpadding in quotes. Do you really want me to teach you AGAIN what statpadding is and how LeBron got the vast majority of his points when the games were still in reach?

Idiot. :facepalm

Yeah, LeBron averaged 28/8/4/2 on 68% TS% that series, compared to Leonard's 18/6/2/2/1 on 75% TS%. That's the actual series. Tell me how Kawhi was better than LeBron in that series? He wasn't. He just had a significantly better team.

You literally said and I quote: " and also outplayed the best player on the opposing team for 3 straight wins, does he not deserve to be recognized as the best player in the series".

Yeah, no. Kawhi wasn't a better player than LeBron.

He won the FMVP because the Spurs won and he was the best player on the team. Not that hard to understand. Also, Kawhi wasn't better than LeBron in G4 and G5. He was significantly better than LeBron in G3 though.

The Spurs were very good defensively, but Miami's shit defense was the main reason why we lost. Miami as a team was at 57% TS% for the series. You do know that that's higher than all but two of Kobe's PO runs, right?

Except for the FACT that LeBron only got around 3-4 PPG during "garbage" time and he did that on worse efficiency.

Only idiots would make one of the GOAT playmakers and scorers play off ball.

Yeah, you really didn't watch that series and this just proves it. Try watching it first before you comment on it. Also, for the 20th time, Miami's offense was a lesser problem than its defense. Miami's defense cost us the series.

I was speaking in the context of Kawhi on the Spurs, he did outplay Lebron in 3 out of 5 games, but 2014 Lebron is obviously a better player individually than 2014 Kawhi, but in the context of the series with Kawhi winning FMVP(which 99.9% of the time is given to the best player on the winning team), he was the best player.

So the Heat didn't score 92, 86 & 87 points in the last 3 games, got it. It wasn't that they had 76 assists to 72 turnovers (indicative of poor ball movement and overall team play), averaging just 15 assists a game, it was all because of the poor defense.

aj1987

08-12-2020, 06:56 AM

I was speaking in the context of Kawhi on the Spurs, he did outplay Lebron in 3 out of 5 games, but 2014 Lebron is obviously a better player individually than 2014 Kawhi, but in the context of the series with Kawhi winning FMVP(which 99.9% of the time is given to the best player on the winning team), he was the best player.
Again, for the 10th time:

1. LeBron was by far the best player in the series. No Kawhi. You can scream that all you want, but LeBron > Kawhi is just a fact and hence why I bought up the hypothetical of swapping teams.

2. Kawhi wasn't better than LeBron in games 4 and 5.

3. Just because Kawhi won the FMVP, doesn't mean he was a better player than LeBron. Just like how Iggy wasn't a better player in the 2015 Finals than LeBron.

So the Heat didn't score 92, 86 & 87 points in the last 3 games, got it. It wasn't that they had 76 assists to 72 turnovers (indicative of poor ball movement and overall team play), averaging just 15 assists a game, it was all because of the poor defense.
Yes, they did. Do you know what the pace in those games was?

Game 3 - 84.8 (Miami scored 92 points)

Game 4 - 83.9 (Miami scored 86 points)

Game 5 - (Miami scored 87 points)

They had FG attempts of 62, 71, and 75. To put those numbers in perspective, the #1 offense in the league that season took 82.5 shots a game to score 107.9 points per game. The #1 offense scored 1.30 points per field goal attempt. The Heat were at 1.29 points per field goal attempt.

Sure the offense could've been better and hence why I said this:

hat's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs had a TEAM TS% of 71.1% and 66% in two of those game. Want to guess why that happened?

ImKobe

08-12-2020, 07:22 AM

Again, for the 10th time:

1. LeBron was by far the best player in the series. No Kawhi. You can scream that all you want, but LeBron > Kawhi is just a fact and hence why I bought up the hypothetical of swapping teams.

2. Kawhi wasn't better than LeBron in games 4 and 5.

3. Just because Kawhi won the FMVP, doesn't mean he was a better player than LeBron. Just like how Iggy wasn't a better player in the 2015 Finals than LeBron.

Yes, they did. Do you know what the pace in those games was?

Game 3 - 84.8 (Miami scored 92 points)

Game 4 - 83.9 (Miami scored 86 points)

Game 5 - (Miami scored 87 points)

They had FG attempts of 62, 71, and 75. To put those numbers in perspective, the #1 offense in the league that season took 82.5 shots a game to score 107.9 points per game. The #1 offense scored 1.30 points per field goal attempt. The Heat were at 1.29 points per field goal attempt.

Sure the offense could've been better and hence why I said this:

hat's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs had a TEAM TS% of 71.1% and 66% in two of those game. Want to guess why that happened?

Kawhi was the best player on the Spurs, which is why he won FMVP. You still have a hard time understanding this point. The fact is that Lebron lost and Kawhi outplayed him in games 3-5. Kawhi matched or outplayed Lebron when the games were close and Lebron stat-padded 63% of his points in those games, that's just the truth. Kawhi wore him out and disrupted the Heat's offense like he was peak Pippen, the fact that you can't give him any credit for that and only blame Lebron's teammates for shooting low-quality shots that apparently the best playmaker to ever live set them up is just stupid. Isn't Lebron responsible for running the offense? How's the offense supposed to be effective when the guy who runs the thing averages 4 assists to 3.8 turnovers and is completely useless without the ball?

The Heat struggled offensively. The pace was virtually the same as the year before (88.1 in '13 vs. 87.4 in '14), but the Heat were worse on both ends. You're not winning a series averaging 91.6 ppg in the modern era, it was 2014, not 2004.

Lebron had the most touches in Game 3 than he he had in any other game and only got 14 shots with 3 FTA & 7 turnovers, that's what a GOAT-level wing defender does. Wade had 22 on 67%, Lewis had 14 on 71% and they still get blown out, why? BAD DEFENSE, not because Lebron sucked, right? The 20 turnovers didn't affect the defense, right?

aj1987

08-12-2020, 07:45 AM

..
Are you mentally challenged? I never disputed that point. However, you said Kawhi was the best player in the series and it's not even remotely true.

The fact is that Lebron lost and Kawhi outplayed him in games 3-5.
That's your opinion and it's wrong. LeBron was better than Kawhi in games 4 and 5. That's a fact.

Kawhi matched or outplayed Lebron when the games were close
Again, it's factually not true. LeBron got outplayed by Kawhi in one game and that was G3.

and Lebron stat-padded 63% of his points in those games that's just the truth.
Wrong again. LeBron got the vast majority of his points when the games were still withing reach. He had like 3 PPG on worse than his regular shooting in 4th Q's.Kawhi wore him out and disrupted the Heat's offense like he was peak Pippen, the fact that you can't give him any credit for that and only blame Lebron's teammates for shooting low-quality shots that apparently the best playmaker to ever live set them up is just stupid. Isn't Lebron responsible for running the offense? How's the offense supposed to be effective when the guy who runs the thing averages 4 assists to 3.8 turnovers and is completely useless without the ball?[/quote]
Wrong again. LeBron got the vast majority of his points when the games were still withing reach. He had like 3 PPG on worse than his regular shooting in 4th Q's.

From a previous post of mine replying to Lazerus:

LeBron 2014

LeBron only played like 6 minutes a game in the 4th Q's and scored only ~3.5 points. Did his scoring in the first 3 Q's when the games were still within ~15 points. However, according to Lazerus, if a player tries to score when a team in trailing by 15 with a quarter and a half of basketball, it's stat padding, because apparently the game is already a blowout.

For instance, in his insane and absolutely retarded rambling, he fails to acknowledge the FACT that LeBron brought the Heat back to within 13 with like 8 minutes to go in the 3rd. That's when others started missing and the Spurs went on a 7-0 run.

Game 1 - LeBron single handedly kept the Heat in the game and the minute he goes out, Miami gets blown out. 2 point game with LeBron on the court. The moment he sits, the Spurs go on a 16-3 run in a span of about four minutes. As I said, without LeBron the Heat got torched by the Spurs.

Game 2 - LeBron plays an incredible game and CB comes through in the Clutch with the late 3. Miami barely win though. Even though Bosh came through in the clutch, dude was terrible (as was Wade) and let Duncan destroy him.

Game 3 - LeBron was terrible in the 4th without question. No excuses. Unlike you, I can admit when a player is terrible, you braindead retard.

Game 5 - So, according to you, LeBron was stat padding when he was trying to score midway through the 3rd with the Heat down 15, but he should’ve scored more with the Heat down 19 going into the 4th? You really do not understand what the term stat padding means, do you? Anyways, TP completely wrecked the Heat in the 4th Q that game. The Heat were never able to get closer than 16 and couldn’t get a stop defensively.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs were the overwhelming favorites to win the Finals. The Heat regressed offensively and defensively from the previous season and was terrible defensively.

aj1987

08-12-2020, 07:46 AM

The Heat struggled offensively. The pace was virtually the same as the year before (88.1 in '13 vs. 87.4 in '14), but the Heat were worse on both ends. You're not winning a series averaging 91.6 ppg in the modern era, it was 2014, not 2004. Lebron had the most touches in Game 3 than he he had in any other game and only got 14 shots with 3 FTA & 7 turnovers, that's what a GOAT-level wing defender does. Wade had 22 on 67%, Lewis had 14 on 71% and they still get blown out, why? BAD DEFENSE, not because Lebron sucked, right? The 20 turnovers didn't affect the defense, right?

You do know that the 2012 Heat won 3 of their games averaging ~96 points, right? And yes, I did address the fact that Miami's offense wasn't that good, with Wade and the rest of the crew sucking hard. And yes, LeBron was definitely terrible in Game 3. I did address that. Unlike you, I don't cherrypick arguments or stats. Funny how you completely ignored this part:

They had FG attempts of 62, 71, and 75. To put those numbers in perspective, the #1 offense in the league that season took 82.5 shots a game to score 107.9 points per game. The #1 offense scored 1.30 points per field goal attempt. The Heat were at 1.29 points per field goal attempt.

Sure the offense could've been better and hence why I said this:

hat's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs had a TEAM TS% of 71.1% and 66% in two of those game. Want to guess why that happened?

ImKobe

08-12-2020, 08:21 AM

You do know that the 2012 Heat won 3 of their games averaging ~96 points, right? And yes, I did address the fact that Miami's offense wasn't that good, with Wade and the rest of the crew sucking hard. And yes, LeBron was definitely terrible in Game 3. I did address that. Unlike you, I don't cherrypick arguments or stats. Funny how you completely ignored this part:

They had FG attempts of 62, 71, and 75. To put those numbers in perspective, the #1 offense in the league that season took 82.5 shots a game to score 107.9 points per game. The #1 offense scored 1.30 points per field goal attempt. The Heat were at 1.29 points per field goal attempt.

Sure the offense could've been better and hence why I said this:

hat's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs had a TEAM TS% of 71.1% and 66% in two of those game. Want to guess why that happened?

Maybe Lebron being defended well by the opposing team had an effect on the Heat's offense? Why are you overlooking this point? They were forcing the ball out of his hands, the Heat had no counter, other than to screen whenever Leonard was on James, but he Spurs' defensive rotations were on point and they didn't get many quality looks, it's not like Lebron was all-time great passing the ball in the series and guys just bricked open shots, the Spurs played great defense.

Ok, so the 2012 Heat won 3 games averaging 96 ppg, they didn't get to 96 points in any of their losses, they were at 72 points in Game 5 with under 6 minutes to go, bad offense. You're not winning these games, even if the Spurs score 10 less points than they did. To not break 100 points once in 5 games is just bad, and it's not like the pace was much worse than in the RS, they played at a 91.2 pace (27th).

Looking at Game 5, the Heat completely fall apart offensively in the 2nd & 3rd quarters. They don't score a point for the first 4 minutes of the 3rd and Lebron doesn't score until they're down 21 points with 4:39 left, it was a 7-point game to start the 2nd half, that's as much on the offense as the defense, you can't win if you don't score. And the blowouts somewhat helped skew the numbers as well with the 3rd stringers playing significant minutes in the 4th as a result.

aj1987

08-12-2020, 08:47 AM

Maybe Lebron being defended well by the opposing team had an effect on the Heat's offense? Why are you overlooking this point? They were forcing the ball out of his hands, the Heat had no counter, other than to screen whenever Leonard was on James, but he Spurs' defensive rotations were on point and they didn't get many quality looks, it's not like Lebron was all-time great passing the ball in the series and guys just bricked open shots, the Spurs played great defense.

Ok, so the 2012 Heat won 3 games averaging 96 ppg, they didn't get to 96 points in any of their losses, they were at 72 points in Game 5 with under 6 minutes to go, bad offense. You're not winning these games, even if the Spurs score 10 less points than they did. To not break 100 points once in 5 games is just bad, and it's not like the pace was much worse than in the RS, they played at a 91.2 pace (27th).

Looking at Game 5, the Heat completely fall apart offensively in the 2nd & 3rd quarters. They don't score a point for the first 4 minutes of the 3rd and Lebron doesn't score until they're down 21 points with 4:39 left, it was a 7-point game to start the 2nd half, that's as much on the offense as the defense, you can't win if you don't score. And the blowouts somewhat helped skew the numbers as well with the 3rd stringers playing significant minutes in the 4th as a result.

Are you arguing with yourself? I never said the offense wasn't bad. TRY TO READ. The defense was a bigger problem. That's my point. I literally even pointed out that the player on the Heat sucked offensively.

That's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs had a TEAM TS% of 71.1% and 66% in two of those game. Want to guess why that happened?

READ.

Wade was completely awful that series and Miami was by FAR the oldest team in the league. In fact, the whole team was just straight up garbage. 40 year old Allen was playing significant minutes.

Going back to Miami's defense, Miami couldn't stop anyone or anything. Even Rashard Lewis was playing a ton of minutes and he was just terrible. Chalmers couldn't guard his own shadow and Miami had zero interior defense. There's no one you can replace LeBron with on that Heat team, in the history of the sport, who would've won that title.

ImKobe

08-12-2020, 09:10 AM

Are you arguing with yourself? I never said the offense wasn't bad. TRY TO READ. The defense was a bigger problem. That's my point. I literally even pointed out that the player on the Heat sucked offensively.

That's what happens when LeBron's #2 gets outscored by 3 players on the Spurs and LeBron's #4 gets outscored by 4 players on the Spurs. Only two players were less efficient than Wade that series. One was Diaw and the other dude played like 5 minutes TOTAL.

Lets also not forget that the Spurs had a TEAM TS% of 71.1% and 66% in two of those game. Want to guess why that happened?

READ.

Wade was completely awful that series and Miami was by FAR the oldest team in the league. In fact, the whole team was just straight up garbage. 40 year old Allen was playing significant minutes.

Going back to Miami's defense, Miami couldn't stop anyone or anything. Even Rashard Lewis was playing a ton of minutes and he was just terrible. Chalmers couldn't guard his own shadow and Miami had zero interior defense. There's no one you can replace LeBron with on that Heat team, in the history of the sport, who would've won that title.

Lebron's the best playmaker ever, but he didn't get his teammates in good spots, that's why he averaged just 4 assists to 3.8 turnovers (20 asts, 19 TOs), offense was a big issue in 2 out of the 3 straight losses, it's not like the Heat were hanging in there at any point in the 2nd half scoring-wise.

Still, their defense could have been better but it would have made little to no impact on the series with how poor they were offensively. Who was Lebron guarding btw? The guy who averaged 18 on 75%TS and had the best ORTG for starters (136) on either team?

aj1987

08-12-2020, 09:38 AM

Lebron's the best playmaker ever, but he didn't get his teammates in good spots, that's why he averaged just 4 assists to 3.8 turnovers (20 asts, 19 TOs), offense was a big issue in 2 out of the 3 straight losses, it's not like the Heat were hanging in there at any point in the 2nd half scoring-wise.
I never said the offense was perfect. Also, I never said LeBron's the best playmaker ever. He did find people. They weren't hitting their shots. If LeBron was such a statpadder, as all you people claim, he would've active looked for assists, no? Also, LeBron's time of possession was actually lower than TP's in the Finals by a lot. Accounting for minutes, the gap becomes significantly larger.

LeBron also upped his passes from an average of 49.6 in the RS to 50.6. He had 10.6 potential assists per game in the Finals, compared to 12.6 in the RS, which is not a massive difference, considering the variation in play.

Still, their defense could have been better but it would have made little to no impact on the series with how poor they were offensively. Who was Lebron guarding btw? The guy who averaged 18 on 75%TS and had the best ORTG for starters (136) on either team?
If you think 18 PPG on 75% is the sole reason why Miami lost, I don't even know where to begin. Again:

Wade was completely awful that series and Miami was by FAR the oldest team in the league. In fact, the whole team was just straight up garbage. 40 year old Allen was playing significant minutes.

Going back to Miami's defense, Miami couldn't stop anyone or anything. Even Rashard Lewis was playing a ton of minutes and he was just terrible. Chalmers couldn't guard his own shadow and Miami had zero interior defense. There's no one you can replace LeBron with on that Heat team, in the history of the sport, who would've won that title.

That Heat team outside LeBron was just old and completely trash. LeBron's defense was subpar, but the rest were even worse.

ImKobe

08-12-2020, 10:32 AM

I never said the offense was perfect. Also, I never said LeBron's the best playmaker ever. He did find people. They weren't hitting their shots. If LeBron was such a statpadder, as all you people claim, he would've active looked for assists, no? Also, LeBron's time of possession was actually lower than TP's in the Finals by a lot. Accounting for minutes, the gap becomes significantly larger.

LeBron also upped his passes from an average of 49.6 in the RS to 50.6. He had 10.6 potential assists per game in the Finals, compared to 12.6 in the RS, which is not a massive difference, considering the variation in play.

If you think 18 PPG on 75% is the sole reason why Miami lost, I don't even know where to begin. Again:

Wade was completely awful that series and Miami was by FAR the oldest team in the league. In fact, the whole team was just straight up garbage. 40 year old Allen was playing significant minutes.

Going back to Miami's defense, Miami couldn't stop anyone or anything. Even Rashard Lewis was playing a ton of minutes and he was just terrible. Chalmers couldn't guard his own shadow and Miami had zero interior defense. There's no one you can replace LeBron with on that Heat team, in the history of the sport, who would've won that title.

That Heat team outside LeBron was just old and completely trash. LeBron's defense was subpar, but the rest were even worse.

Wow, again, everything outside of Lebron is trash and he gets no blame because he boosted his numbers down 15-20+ points.

Lebron's defense was sub-par (though a role player he was guarding turned into an all-star), but everyone else was even worse. Seriously? Did we watch the same series here? Did Duncan average 20/10? Did Parker average 25? Did Manu average 20? Their offense was terrible because Lebron couldn't handle the defense and Miami had no counter to what the Spurs were doing against Lebron, it led to a lot of bad shots and really poor ball movement, hence why his teammates struggled scoring.

What's the biggest difference between Games 1-2 & 3-5? Kawhi turns into a star. Maybe this series could have gone 6-7 games had Lebron not developed cramps in Game 1, though they did already blow the lead and Lebron only scored 2 points on 1/3 shooting in 5 minutes in 4Q.

RRR3

08-12-2020, 10:50 AM

ImKobe has one of the worst cases of LeBron Derangement Syndrome I’ve ever seen. Yikes.

insidious301

08-12-2020, 11:38 AM

You are delusional or you didn't watch a minute of the 2014 playoffs. Manu was used as a role player post 2011 and was no longer a star. He was a guy who could maybe steal you a game in a series but that's it. Kawhi on the other hand was the leader in GmSc in 2nd round, leader in minutes in 3rd round, leader in GmSc in 4th round. I don't know what to tell you. I like Manu as well and have stuck up for him in the past but you're off base here.

This post only tells us you cannot keep a straight criteria. First you wanted to single-out the finals, but after that didn't work, now its the playoffs. In the playoffs, Manu equaled Kawhi's scoring, averaged more assists, averaged a higher BPM-PER-VORP. That is in 26 minutes to Kawhi's 32. The games are all on youtube. Go watch them again and then you'll understand why you were wrong. And why the numbers favor Manu. Beating 9 MVPs is not a record by the way, so your OP is incorrect.

aj1987

08-12-2020, 12:29 PM

Wow, again, everything outside of Lebron is trash and he gets no blame because he boosted his numbers down 15-20+ points.
When did I ever say LeBron gets no blame? I literally said a dozen times that his game 3 was atrocious. Also, I literally just said LeBron's defense was subpar.

Lebron's defense was sub-par (though a role player he was guarding turned into an all-star), but everyone else was even worse. Seriously? Did we watch the same series here? Did Duncan average 20/10? Did Parker average 25? Did Manu average 20? Their offense was terrible because Lebron couldn't handle the defense and Miami had no counter to what the Spurs were doing against Lebron, it led to a lot of bad shots and really poor ball movement, hence why his teammates struggled scoring.
I said subpar, because Kawhi was hitting everything. Dude was shooting lights out. He was hitting shots with LeBron all over him. He was taking and making ridiculous shots. Some of those shots, nobody could've guarded him better and Kawhi was still hitting them.

You OBVIOUSLY did not watch the series, so try watching this short clip at the least. Should be more your speed. It's only about 5 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8U5bwe9TS0

LeBron also upped his passes from an average of 49.6 in the RS to 50.6. He had 10.6 potential assists per game in the Finals, compared to 12.6 in the RS, which is not a massive difference, considering the variation in play.

LeBron's time of possession was actually lower than TP's in the Finals by a lot. Accounting for minutes, the gap becomes significantly larger. LeBron was at aroun 6.5 minutes a game and TP was at around 7.8 minutes a game. While playing significantly fewer minutes.

So yeah, did TP's ball domination not kill the Spurs' ball movement?

As I said, stop using buzz words and try to come up with FACTUAL arguments.

What's the biggest difference between Games 1-2 & 3-5? Kawhi turns into a star. Maybe this series could have gone 6-7 games had Lebron not developed cramps in Game 1, though they did already blow the lead and Lebron only scored 2 points on 1/3 shooting in 5 minutes in 4Q.
Not really. Even if Miami wins G1, they weren't going to sustain it. Even in 2013, the Spurs absolutely torched the Heat from deep with Neal and Green being in FMVP contention, along with Parker, before LeBron decided to take over. The Spurs Spurs had a ton of great shooters and it showed. Thankfully, they completely cooled down in games 6 and 7 in the 2013 Finals.

Miami lost those 3 games by an average of ~20 points a game. Even if Kawhi scored 10 fewer points a game, the Spurs would've still comfortably won. They had a much much better team.

ImKobe

08-12-2020, 02:20 PM

Miami lost those 3 games by an average of ~20 points a game. Even if Kawhi scored 10 fewer points a game, the Spurs would've still comfortably won. They had a much much better team.

I agree with this, which is why I was more on the side of looking at how Miami's offense underperformed here, hard to win scoring in the high 80s/low 90s in 2014. Spurs had the better team, I don't think Lebron really underperformed that much in the Finals overall, but it was Kawhi's coming out party and he should at least deserve FMVP credit, though it obviously doesn't stack up with the best, it holds about as much weight as Iguodala's.

aj1987

08-12-2020, 02:25 PM

I agree with this, which is why I was more on the side of looking at how Miami's offense underperformed here, hard to win scoring in the high 80s/low 90s in 2014. Spurs had the better team, I don't think Lebron really underperformed that much in the Finals overall, but it was Kawhi's coming out party and he should at least deserve FMVP credit, though it obviously doesn't stack up with the best, it holds about as much weight as Iguodala's.

Bruh, I literally have no idea what you're arguing with me about RN. :roll:

Phoenix

08-12-2020, 02:35 PM

The Spurs shooting percentages in the 2014 finals..... 53% from the field, 47% from 3.You're gonna have to be like....2017 Warriors level to keep up with that level of shooting. They shot well throughout the players but their offense easily peaked vs Miami. Better offense in response from Miami only reduces the pain inflicted in that series. They couldn't stop the Spurs first and foremost. Usually' if you can hold down the fort defensively you can give yourself a glimmer of hope that the ball bounces your way at the right moment. The Spurs simply left no wiggle room for something like the end of game 6 2013 to shift the series momentum.

Roundball_Rock

08-12-2020, 03:07 PM

People also act like the teams were the same in both 13' and 14'. In 13' the Heat won 66 games and the Spurs 58 games; in 14' the Heat slipped to 54 wins and the Spurs improved to 62 wins. That is a swing (from Miami's perspective) from +8 to -8.

We saw what Miami was when LeBron left in 15' and they went from EC champs to 10th place.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 03:11 PM

This post only tells us you cannot keep a straight criteria. First you wanted to single-out the finals, but after that didn't work, now its the playoffs. In the playoffs, Manu equaled Kawhi's scoring, averaged more assists, averaged a higher BPM-PER-VORP. That is in 26 minutes to Kawhi's 32. The games are all on youtube. Go watch them again and then you'll understand why you were wrong. And why the numbers favor Manu. Beating 9 MVPs is not a record by the way, so your OP is incorrect.

This entire thread is about discussing the specific series of MVPS that Kawhi eliminated. You're the one who kept bringing up the cringe worthy "Manu was best player entire 2014 playoffs" argument.

ImKobe

08-12-2020, 03:14 PM

Bruh, I literally have no idea what you're arguing with me about RN. :roll:

Done arguing on this topic, we're on different sides here. You started by quoting me & saying that Lebron stat-padded as much as Kawhi (which wasn't true). My initial point was arguing that Kawhi was the FMVP and best player on the Spurs in that series due to what he did in 3 straight wins, then you took it as me saying that 2014 Kawhi was better overall than 2014 Lebron, which I never did. Kawhi was arguably better in 3 out of 5 games, but Lebron was so much better in the first 2 ones that he obviously was better overall for the series.

This was from one of my initial posts

So, if he was the Spurs' most efficient scorer for the series, and also outplayed the best player on the opposing team for 3 straight wins, does he not deserve to be recognized as the best player in the series? Obviously, it's tough to argue that Leonard was by far the Spurs' best player for the entire run, but he certainly was their best player when it came to them beating Miami, though they had great teamwork and others obviously deserve credit as well.

Ok, so him outplaying Lebron in a 3-game stretch does not make him better than Lebron over the course of the RS/POs/Finals, but it does make him the most valuable player on his team in that series. That's all that really matters. I don't care enough to keep this going.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 03:14 PM

insidious301

08-12-2020, 03:18 PM

This entire thread is about discussing the specific series of MVPS that Kawhi eliminated. You're the one who kept bringing up the cringe worthy "Manu was best player entire 2014 playoffs" argument.

Which I've outlayed the numbers for. To hammer home the point, we expanded the volume to the playoffs. This strengthens Manu's case. If you don't understand sample size, take up a math course.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 03:54 PM

Which I've outlayed the numbers for. To hammer home the point, we expanded the volume to the playoffs. This strengthens Manu's case. If you don't understand sample size, take up a math course.

Your entire argument is based on things like "rate" and "per 36" type stats. Nobody is ever going to buy into that. Manu was a negative BPM in 2 out of 3 games during the 3 game win stretch.

Game 3 win: Kawhi 39 minutes and 16.0 BPM, Manu 27 minutes and -3.9 BPM

Game 4 win: Kawhi 38 minutes and 15.9 BPM, Manu 27 minutes and -10.9 BPM

Game 5 win: Kawhi 34 minutes and 11.5 BPM, Manu 28 minutes and 7.1 BPM

So much for your "rate" stats. During that 3 game winning stretch, Kawhi has a 51.1 total BPM higher then Manu. Absolute crushed him. I didn't want to embarrass you man but you had it coming. +51.1 hahahha nice "rate" stats there Manu.

You should stick to watching DR J dominate the plumbers in ABA. 2010's NBA you don't know what the hell your rambling about.

insidious301

08-12-2020, 04:29 PM

Your entire argument is based on things like "rate" and "per 36" type stats. Nobody is ever going to buy into that. Manu was a negative BPM in 2 out of 3 games during the 3 game win stretch.

Game 3 win: Kawhi 39 minutes and 16.0 BPM, Manu 27 minutes and -3.9 BPM

Game 4 win: Kawhi 38 minutes and 15.9 BPM, Manu 27 minutes and -10.9 BPM

Game 5 win: Kawhi 34 minutes and 11.5 BPM, Manu 28 minutes and 7.1 BPM

So much for your "rate" stats. During that 3 game winning stretch, Kawhi has a 51.1 total BPM higher then Manu. Absolute crushed him. I didn't want to embarrass you man but you had it coming. +51.1 hahahha nice "rate" stats there Manu.

You should stick to watching DR J dominate the plumbers in ABA. 2010's NBA you don't know what the hell your rambling about.

Your case was already weak, but now you're lamenting a puny 3 game sample. The 3ball school of thought. Three games aren't a big enough sample to gauge a BO7 series. That isn't how the real world operates or how you rate a players impact. When you only talk about finals play, Manu averaged more assists and the same ts% in less time. But also a higher BPM-VORP-PER rate. If we broaden the scope to playoff play overall, Manu wins there handily. You have a shaky grasp on how the numbers work, and certainly never watched that team play. Watch the games on youtube and read up on how the stats work. Maybe then you'll have a leg to stand on.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 04:34 PM

Your case was already weak, but now you're lamenting a puny 3 game sample. The 3ball school of thought. Three games aren't a big enough sample to gauge a BO7 series. That isn't how the real world operates or how you rate a players impact. When you only talk about finals play, Manu averaged more assists and the same ts% in less time. But also a higher BPM-VORP-PER rate. If we broaden the scope to playoff play overall, Manu wins there handily. You have a shaky grasp on how the numbers work, and certainly never watched that team play. Watch the games on youtube and read up on how the stats work. Maybe then you'll have a leg to stand on.

3 win sample size is plenty, that's 75% of the series wins.

Kawhi advantages over Manu during finals:

- PPG
- efficiency
- total BPM
- defense responsibility guarding LeBron
- Total minutes played

The argument is STACKED against Manu. While you desperately hold onto your "rate" stats.

insidious301

08-12-2020, 04:40 PM

3 win sample size is plenty, that's 75% of the series.

Kawhi advantages over Manu during finals:

- PPG
- efficiency
- total BPM
- defense responsibility guarding LeBron
- Total minutes played

The argument is STACKED against Manu. While you desperately hold onto your "rate stats.

You still don't have a clue on how rate works. Classes are everywhere on the internet--go enroll in one. It's gotten so bad, you are now subtracting 2 games from a 5 game series. That is what we call cherrypicking. On a bigger sample, Manu's better play deflates your OP. He was the engine making that Spurs team go. This is backed by his cumulative playoff stats. And rate numbers in a puny 5 game sample. So go ahead and edit your topic now, it needs to be amended for Manu's play.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 05:07 PM

You still don't have a clue on how rate works. Classes are everywhere on the internet--go enroll in one. It's gotten so bad, you are now subtracting 2 games from a 5 game series. That is what we call cherrypicking. On a bigger sample, Manu's better play deflates your OP. He was the engine making that Spurs team go. This is backed by his cumulative playoff stats. And rate numbers in a puny 5 game sample. So go ahead and edit your topic now, it needs to be amended for Manu's play.

Rate numbers are worthless in a 5 game series.

- GmSc
- PPG
- Defense
- Total mins
- Total BPM
- efficiency

All these advantages for Kawhi and absolutely zero counter arguments from you.

insidious301

08-12-2020, 05:15 PM

Rate numbers are worthless in a 5 game series.

- GmSc
- PPG
- Defense
- Total mins
- Total BPM
- efficiency

All these advantages for Kawhi and absolutely zero counter arguments from you.

But, they're context for a 5 games series that is combined for an entire playoff run. When the cumulative figures are tacked on, Manu has the clear advantage. If you need more help learning the numbers, throw me an email. I will forward it to you. In the meantime its best to change your OP and include Manu. For clarity purposes.

HBK_Kliq_2

08-12-2020, 05:32 PM

But, they're context for a 5 games series that is combined for an entire playoff run. When the cumulative figures are tacked on, Manu has the clear advantage. If you need more help learning the numbers, throw me an email. I will forward it to you. In the meantime its best to change your OP and include Manu. For clarity purposes.

I gave you 6 different arguments lined up together and you failed to counter even 1 of them.

insidious301

08-12-2020, 05:36 PM

I gave you 6 different arguments lined up together and you failed to counter even 1 of them.

They were debunked one by one. Then you resorted to a 3 game sample. That isn't how you evaluate a player. You were already given a larger scope, meaning a bigger sample. So for 2014 edit your title and body with "Manu was actually the Spurs best player"

red1

08-12-2020, 05:39 PM

OP is absolutely retarded good lord

what type of retarded measuring scheme is that

red1

08-12-2020, 05:41 PM

15 different MVPs. Names 4. Isiah Thomas eliminated 19 different MVPs. :eek: Greatest to ever do it?

actually nevermind this is just fine

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1CRHDIVXXXXbFapXXq6xXFXXXz/Free-Shipping-1990-Detroit-Isiah-Thomas-Basketball-Championship-Ring-Best-Fan-Gift-for-18K-gold-plated.jpg

insidious301

08-12-2020, 05:42 PM

OP is absolutely retarded good lord

what type of retarded measuring scheme is that

He wanted to reduce the finals to a 3 game sample. And now is crying that I wont let him do it. When evaluating a player, we go by what actually happened and include all games. That is how the real world works.

aj1987

08-13-2020, 05:15 PM

Done arguing on this topic, we're on different sides here.
That's what happens when you do not have a single FACT on your side.

You started by quoting me & saying that Lebron stat-padded as much as Kawhi (which wasn't true).
That's factually true. In fact, Kawhi had more garbage time points than LeBron in the series and played more minutes in garbage time. Even if you remove those points for LeBron, he would still be at ~25 PPG on close to 70% TS for the series.

My initial point was arguing that Kawhi was the FMVP and best player on the Spurs in that series due to what he did in 3 straight wins, then you took it as me saying that 2014 Kawhi was better overall than 2014 Lebron, which I never did. Kawhi was arguably better in 3 out of 5 games, but Lebron was so much better in the first 2 ones that he obviously was better overall for the series.

This was from one of my initial posts

Ok, so him outplaying Lebron in a 3-game stretch does not make him better than Lebron over the course of the RS/POs/Finals, but it does make him the most valuable player on his team in that series. That's all that really matters. I don't care enough to keep this going.

Read. Your. Post. :facepalm

"does he not deserve to be recognized as the best player in the series?"