Jeff Hornacek vs Gordon Hayward

[Lebron23]

Who's the better player?? Both played for the Jazz. Both averaged 20 ppg. Hornacek is 6'3" while Hayward is 6'8".

[Bronbron23]

Who's the better player?? Both played for the Jazz. Both averaged 20 ppg. Hornacek is 6'3" while Hayward is 6'8".

Hard to say to be honest. Hayward is more athletic and more skilled but he's soft as shit and has no heart. What horn lacked in athleticism he made up for it in heart and toughness. Im not a fan of neither player but id probably take horn if i had to chose. Gordon looks better but come playoff time i want the tougher player with heart who will most likely have a bigger impact on the game.

[XYY]

Hard to say to be honest. Hayward is more athletic and more skilled but he's soft as shit and has no heart. What horn lacked in athleticism he made up for it in heart and toughness. Im not a fan of neither player but id probably take horn if i had to chose. Gordon looks better but come playoff time i want the tougher player with heart who will most likely have a bigger impact on the game.

Hayward isn't more skilled. I certainly wouldn't call him soft with no heart at least from what I saw in Utah. He took his game to another level in his last playoff with the Jazz. Only time the Jazz haven't sucked with Gobert off the floor.

Hard to compare them really. Horny was a better shooter. Hayward has more size and defends better. He was still getting better before his injury. Both guys I'd want on my team. Maybe not for the current price of Hayward though.

[Lebron23]

Gordon Hayward is also a good defender. I remembered him blocking LeBron's layup when he played for the Jazz. Hornacek is the better shooter.

[tontoz]

Comparable players. When in doubt i will go with the bigger guy.

[Bronbron23]

Hayward isn't more skilled. I certainly wouldn't call him soft with no heart at least from what I saw in Utah. He took his game to another level in his last playoff with the Jazz. Only time the Jazz haven't sucked with Gobert off the floor.

Hard to compare them really. Horny was a better shooter. Hayward has more size and defends better. He was still getting better before his injury. Both guys I'd want on my team. Maybe not for the current price of Hayward though.

Well im talking pre injury hayward. Theres really not a great sample size pre injury. He was young and looked like he was gonna very nice but he only really had one great year. By all acounts he was definitely gonna be better than horn. Post injury is a different story. He's less explosive and maybe soft and no heart was an over statement but he definitely seems more tentative now. It was a bad injury. He could legitimately have ptsd over that shit.

[Reggie43]

Hayward would have been a Superstar/Perennial Allstar if he had Hornaceck's basketball iq and toughness. Hornaceck was a player that always seemed to make the right play and was fundamentally sound.

[aceman]

Who's the better player?? Both played for the Jazz. Both averaged 20 ppg. Hornacek is 6'3" while Hayward is 6'8".

Both guys are white is what you're saying

[XYY]

Hayward would have been a Superstar/Perennial Allstar if he had Hornaceck's basketball iq and toughness. Hornaceck was a player that always seemed to make the right play and was fundamentally sound.

Hayward was tough and he had a high basketball iq as well

[Roundball_Rock]

Same guy, except height. Both 1x all-stars.

Hornacek peak: 20/5/5
Hayward peak: 22/5/4

Hornacek did it in a tougher defensive era, though so degree of difficulty gives him the edge.

[ImKobe]

Same guy, except height. Both 1x all-stars.

Hornacek peak: 20/5/5
Hayward peak: 22/5/4

Hornacek did it in a tougher defensive era, though so degree of difficulty gives him the edge.

League average ORTG in 2017: 108.8
League average ORTG in 1992: 108.2

2017 Jazz played at a 91.6 pace, 1992 Suns played at a 99.4 pace.

Hayward played 34.5 mpg, Hornacek 38.

Hayward was also the clear-cut #1 option.

Use your shitty logic with pace to lower Hornacek's numbers, adjust the minutes as well and Hayward's season was easily better.

[Roundball_Rock]

20 players scored 20+ in 92'; 31 did so in 17'. Among perimeter players it was 14 in 92' and 28 in 17'. Hayward was 26th in scoring 22 PPG; Hornacek 20th at 20 PPG. League averages don't tell us anything about all-stars and you all keep invoking stats without grasping the inputs into them. 1992 had a lot of big men shooting high FG percentages parked next to the basket. Those creatures are extinct today.

Zach Lavine put up 26/5/5 this year and no one even noticed. :oldlol:

[XYY]

Horny might have been better the following season in Philly when he averaged 7 assists a game

[ImKobe]

20 players scored 20+ in 92'; 31 did so in 17'. Among perimeter players it was 14 in 92' and 28 in 17'. Hayward was 26th in scoring 22 PPG; Hornacek 20th at 20 PPG. League averages don't tell us anything about all-stars and you all keep invoking stats without grasping the inputs into them. 1992 had a lot of big men shooting high FG percentages parked next to the basket. Those creatures are extinct today.

Zach Lavine put up 26/5/5 this year and no one even noticed. :oldlol:

Terrible argument, and what does Zach Lavine putting up numbers on a tanking team in 2020 have to do with Hayward's 2017 season? You're grasping at straws here. Stats show that there's virtually no difference between ORTG in the two seasons and that Hornacek played at a much higher pace and wasn't even the de-facto #1 option on his team. Kevin Johnson averaged 20/4/11 with 24/4/12 in the Playoffs. Hayward led his team to 51 wins and won a Playoff series against a really good Clippers' team, averaging 23.7 pg on 62.5%TS, winning a Game 7 on the road with a 26/8/3 performance, despite Gobert scoring 1 point and fouling out in 13 minutes (also missed 2 games in the series, before you bring up the Griffin injury excuse).

Try spinning yourself out of this one now, you used the pace logic in the Pippen thread, now it's irrelevant data, right? Sure, there are more 20+ ppg scorers in today's league, but that's only natural with superstars playing less minutes/playing more team-oriented basketball & there being 3 more teams and the league being better at shooting 3s and at a high volume, doesn't mean that Hornacek was better than Hayward, lol.

[Roundball_Rock]

what does Zach Lavine

Stats are so inflated 26/5/4 doesn't even get noticed today. :oldlol: Bad team has nothing to do with it--the post above yours noted what Hornacek himself did on a bad team the next year.


Hornacek played at a much higher pace and wasn't even the de-facto #1 option on his team

He was their leading scorer, another example of why the "option" stuff is dumb (you can be the leading scorer but somehow not be the "first option"--like someone here saying Amare scoring 25-26 wasn't the "first option" on the Suns :oldlol:. Best player and first option aren't one and the same on each team) but it is amusing suddenly playmaking matters. KJ led his team in scoring exactly once. It was Chambers, Hornacek, or Barkley in every other year.


Sure, there are more 20+ ppg scorers in today's league, but that's only natural with superstars playing less minute

The numbers speak for themselves. Anyone can look them up for 5, 10, 20 years ago and see the trend. Luka is averaging 29/9/9 and won't come close to MVP. If he did that in any other era outside of the 60's he would be a lock for MVP. 50 point games aren't a big deal anymore since it is routine now (one yesterday--only a handful of posts on it). Etc.

As to pace, look it up yourself. It's simple math. I can't do your homework for you all day.

[ImKobe]

Stats are so inflated 26/5/4 doesn't even get noticed today. :oldlol: Bad team has nothing to do with it--the post above yours noted what Hornacek himself did on a bad team the next year.



He was their leading scorer, another example of why the "option" stuff is dumb (you can be the leading scorer but somehow not be the "first option"--like someone here saying Amare scoring 25-26 wasn't the "first option" on the Suns :oldlol:. Best player and first option aren't one and the same on each team) but it is amusing suddenly playmaking matters. KJ led his team in scoring exactly once. It was Chambers, Hornacek, or Barkley in every other year.



The numbers speak for themselves. Anyone can look them up for 5, 10, 20 years ago and see the trend. Luka is averaging 29/9/9 and won't come close to MVP. If he did that in any other era outside of the 60's he would be a lock for MVP.

As to pace, look it up yourself. It's simple math. I can't do your homework for you all day.

Players have put up good numbers on bad teams for ages, Mitch Richmond averaged 23/4/5 on a terrible Kings team in '92 and didn't make the ASG. Speaking of the '93 Sixers season, Hornacek wasn't even the clear-cut 1st option on that team (1.2 less ppg than Hawkins)

Leading scorer by .4 ppg, but Kevin Johnson actually took more shots when you factor in the FTA. KJ was their closer and averaged 3 more ppg than Hornacek in the Playoffs, that's not comparable to Hayward leading his team in shots and USG% (by a good margin) all season and doing it in the biggest Playoff games and actually being the closer and the guy with the ball in his hands at the end of the game.