2016 Cleveland Cavaliers vs 1996 Seattle Super Sonics

[Lebron23]

Who wins in a best of 7
series?

[Roundball_Rock]

This is the same team that choked in the first round not once but twice in the years immediately preceding 96'. They get a lot of mileage out of one run in a year where Houston, Phoenix weakened to mediocrity and their WCF opponent were the notorious playoff decliners Malone & Stockton (Stockton's TS % shrunk 19% in the WCF, Malone's from 58% to 50%). No team underachieved more in the playoffs relative to their RS record during that time than the Payton/Kemp/Schrempf core.

[Rico2016]

No team in NBA history beats the 2016 Cavs, not even a 73-win, record setting juggernaut

[light]

Who wins in a best of 7
series?

Cavs in 4.

The 96 Sonics would look at LeBron and be like, "nah, this isn't fair."

[Duncan21formvp]

Sonics in 4 just like did to the Rockets that year beating Hakeem/Drexler. Lebron couldn't even beat Dwight Howard in a series even with HCA.

[aceman]

1996 sonics were ahead of their time - a lots plays without anybody in the post. When they did it was usually just kemp iso'ed. Perkins played on perimeter. More like how basketball is played today.

[Gougou]

2016, they have Lebron and will be 4-1 Cleveland win.

[Roundball_Rock]

1996 sonics were ahead of their time - a lots plays without anybody in the post. When they did it was usually just kemp iso'ed. Perkins played on perimeter. More like how basketball is played today.

Good points. Perkins may have been the first center that routinely took 3's.

[jstern]

That Supersonics team was a great team. Probably a sweep barring injuries or suspensions. Under which rules? The 90s rules or the perimeter friendly rules?

[Lebron23]

2016, they have Lebron and will be 4-1 Cleveland win.

This. 1990's and Modern rules they would beat the Sonics. Same Sonics team lost to the 1995 Lakers, and 1994 Nuggets in the first round. They choked plenty of times in the playoffs.

[Manny98]

the 2016 Cavs are a top 10 team of all time

[Reggie43]

Would love to see Payton and Nate take turns defending Kyrie with the old rules. Imagine thinking you can relax a bit being defended by a bench player only to realize you are matched up with a former steals champ and 2x all defense member.

[Lebron23]

the 2016 Cavs are a top 10 team of all time

I have to agree. In hindsight those sonics team under achieved. When you were a top seed losing to lower seeds teams is a huge failure.

[Phoenix]

Probably Cavs in 6. Its actually not a bad matchup on paper. Lebron as the best player swings it definitively towards Cleveland.

That 2016 Cavs team is better than given credit for. Some people like to hype the 73 win thing to play up this 'against all odds' narrative but that Cavs squad was better in reality than a 57 win team. Between Lebron, Love and Kyrie( the latter accounting for the vast majority) they missed 40 games to injury. In terms of actual ability they were more like a 65 win team.

[Whoah10115]

This Sonics team went to the Finals.

The 96 Bulls are greater than the 16 Warriors. Now, I remember as a kid everybody shocked when Seattle wom b2b games after being down 3-0. The Bulls, for once, took the foot off the gas pedal, but still happened.

6 or 7 game series. Cleveland win because LeBron is the best player. But it's tough and Seattle were terrific. Payton had started into his prime and they have three legit all-stars, 3 legit All-NBA caliber guys. Hawkins, McMillan, Johnson, Askew and they had Sam Perkins too.

[Roundball_Rock]

Some people like to hype the 73 win thing to play up this 'against all odds' narrative but that Cavs squad was better in reality than a 57 win team. Between Lebron, Love and Kyrie( the latter accounting for the vast majority) they missed 40 games to injury. In terms of actual ability they were more like a 65 win team.

They were 32-13 in those games--a 58 win pace (they won 57 total games). People make too much of the impact on team records of Irving and Wade. The fact is those teams performed the same with or without them so long as LeBron was on the court; when LeBron was out is when there was a large decline. Make of it what you will but this is a consistent factual trend and we have a good sample size to work with because Irving & Wade got hurt every year (with Irving we have seen his teams actually improve without him in Boston and Brooklyn).

My read is it shows the floor raising power of LeBron that he can interchange those guys and still keep rolling--but there are limits to that. You can do that against 25-26 teams but you need star power against a team like the Warriors or Rockets.

[Rico2016]

LBJ is not MJ. He is better.
Meaning he isn't scoring 27 on 41% versus a 6'3 Payton
Meaning he is not getting out done (Game Score) by Shawn Kemp.

LBJ > MJ

MJ wouldnt know what to do in the modern era. He is used to winning Finals with 4 rebs and 2 assists on 41%

Meanwhile LeBron did 34/12/10 54% and 34/8/8 52%

Not even close.

[Bronbron23]

No team in NBA history beats the 2016 Cavs, not even a 73-win, record setting juggernaut

Are on crack bruh? One asterisk chip and a regular season record dosnt put you with the atg teams. That warriors team werent even a top 10 all time and it took bron 7 games, a suspension and a choking steph to do that. 80's cetics, lakers and pistons were better. 90,s bulls were better. 2000 lakers and spurs and pistons were better. You gotta get off that shit maaaan

[insidious301]

Hawkins and Perkins were good shooters so the Sonics aren't totally outmatched there. Kemp vs Draymond would be a good h2h, but I could see Payton putting the clamps on Curry. As usual it probably boils down to Klay who likely has a big series. Its close either way regardless of the rules.

[Phoenix]

They were 32-13 in those games--a 58 win pace (they won 57 total games). People make too much of the impact on team records of Irving and Wade. The fact is those teams performed the same with or without them so long as LeBron was on the court; when LeBron was out is when there was a large decline. Make of it what you will but this is a consistent factual trend and we have a good sample size to work with because Irving & Wade got hurt every year (with Irving we have seen his teams actually improve without him in Boston and Brooklyn).

My read is it shows the floor raising power of LeBron that he can interchange those guys and still keep rolling--but there are limits to that. You can do that against 25-26 teams but you need star power against a team like the Warriors or Rockets.

I mentioned 65 wins mainly to say that the difference between the two teams was over inflated by team records, and this board is infatuated with season records so I used '65 wins' more as a barometer of their ability ceiling when everyone was healthy, and not literally the number of games they would have won if Kyrie played more. I agree he isnt much of a needle mover in wins and losses but he was important to that Cavs win. Even if we want to be literal about records Lebron missed 6 games, not a ton but odds are the Cavs were a 60 win team if he played out the entire season since hes by far the most individually responsible in terms of maximizing their win total count.

I dont place too much stock in team records anyway. The Cavs won 66 games in 2009 but based on this boards fetishism with team records that would make them better than the 57 win Cavs in 2016( which obviously isnt the case).

[Rico2016]

Are on crack bruh? One asterisk chip and a regular season record dosnt put you with the atg teams. That warriors team werent even a top 10 all time and it took bron 7 games, a suspension and a choking steph to do that. 80's cetics, lakers and pistons were better. 90,s bulls were better. 2000 lakers and spurs and pistons were better. You gotta get off that shit maaaan

Top 7 all time SRS
Top 1 all time wins
Only Unanimous MVP winner
3 all nbas
3 all stars
3 olympians
30 ppg 50/40/90 player
Klay, Dray, Iggy perimeter defense

Not too shabby eh

[LostCause]

Cavs win

As has been stated, that was an all time great team despite their regular season coasting. Durant himself stated despite Golden Stats winning 73 games, the Cavs were the most talented team in the league and they weren’t sure who’d win

[Roundball_Rock]

The poll is nearly even. The Cavs "super team" would lose to a team that couldn't beat the 42 win Nuggets? Not that "super", then, is it?


I mentioned 65 wins mainly to say that the difference between the two teams was over inflated by team records, and this board is infatuated with season records so I used '65 wins' more as a barometer of their ability ceiling when everyone was healthy, and not literally the number of games they would have won if Kyrie played more.

Based on what, though? They never came close to 65 wins. They struggled to get to 50 each year, outside of 16'. People give a lot of weight to big names like Irving and Wade plus LeBron but the team performance people attribute to those teams was never there.

I agree the Warriors underachieved in the playoffs (almost lost to OKC) but says more about them choking than how good those other teams were.

[Phoenix]

The poll is nearly even. The Cavs "super team" would lose to a team that couldn't beat the 42 win Nuggets? Not that "super", then, is it?



Based on what, though? They never came close to 65 wins. They struggled to get to 50 each year, outside of 16'. People give a lot of weight to big names like Irving and Wade plus LeBron but the team performance people attribute to those teams was never there.

I agree the Warriors underachieved in the playoffs (almost lost to OKC) but says more about them choking than how good those other teams were.

I go by playoff performance as a better barometer than I do season wins. The 2017 Cavs 'only' won 51 games but they went 12-1 in the east playoffs. I would say they underachieved in the regular season winning 50ish games. As I said before, I dont give season records 'that' much weight but that's just me.

Also, I wouldnt read anything in this poll. It involves a team featuring Lebron James and theres not going to be a hint of objectivity in the results on this board. I havent looked at the poll, dont really need to. The Cavs IMO win this series in a competitive 6 game series, but I feel it would be a pretty decisive win for them.

[Roundball_Rock]

Isn't the argument always that PO performance was due to a weak EC and that got exposed as soon as they met the WC champ? The 2017 Cavs got killed in the finals. They didn't show anything more than a 51 win team. It isn't as if they beat a 64 win team to make the Finals; they beat a 53 win team.


Also, I wouldnt read anything in this poll. It involves a team featuring Lebron James and theres not going to be a hint of objectivity in the results on this board.

True. :lol

[Phoenix]

That's what I mean though. If we are saying that the east was weak in 2017 then winning 51 games seems low when they shitted on the east in the playoffs. In other words, when they had to they took it up a level but during the season they seemed content to mostly cruise through the year. I dont think the Cavs ever viewed the rest of the east as enough of a threat where they needed to go all out every year maximizing the number of games they 'could've won if they went full throttle.

[BigShotBob]

Who's gonna guard Shawn Kemp? Kevin Love? Tristan Thompson? :oldlol:

[Duncan21formvp]

LBJ is not MJ. He is better.
Meaning he isn't scoring 27 on 41% versus a 6'3 Payton
Meaning he is not getting out done (Game Score) by Shawn Kemp.

LBJ > MJ

MJ wouldnt know what to do in the modern era. He is used to winning Finals with 4 rebs and 2 assists on 41%

Meanwhile LeBron did 34/12/10 54% and 34/8/8 52%

Not even close.

You mean averaging 17 ppg and shooting 35% FG and getting swept twice on the highest stage

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Cavs in 6 or 7

Seattle didn't have anyone to slow down Bron. Yeah Payton could switch on him but eventually it would be a mismatch, and Gary would be outta fouls. That or Kyrie goes postal.

Those last 3 games in the '16 finals were the best I've seen Bron play in.

[Rico2016]

Who's gonna guard Shawn Kemp? Kevin Love? Tristan Thompson? :oldlol:

This dude said Shawn Kemp :lol Was that a meme?

We will let him get his 20 per game. Payton cant score anyway.

[Phoenix]

Who's gonna guard Shawn Kemp? Kevin Love? Tristan Thompson? :oldlol:

Lebron might actually spend alot of time on Kemp. He physically matches up with him.

[Rico2016]

Imagine you're in Chicago and your biggest scoring threat is Shawn Kemp :lol

Whos gonna guard Kemp tho?!
:roll: :roll:

Is this the MJ ERA? Jesus it's just 2 ez

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

We will let him get his 20 per game. Payton cant score anyway.

"We"

What are you, LeBron's yin to his yang? :lol

[tpols]

the fact that the sonics took the 72 win Bulls to 6 says it for me.

The Cavs were nowhere near that level. They weren't a dynasty, but a one off.

if there's no suspension?

Sonics in 6.

[Duncan21formvp]

It took the Cavs 6 to just beat Toronto that year. Put the Cavs vs 1996 Orlando and Orlando dominates

[tpols]

Shawn Kemp by every metric was actually a great defender. He was a "Lebron" level athlete although obviously not as skilled.

He would give kyrie and bron trouble at the rim.

Remember... Cleveland was totally suppressed offensively until Bogut got hurt, the league leader in DRPM.

Add in a trash talking payton and you have a recipe for shookness.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoYZf-lBF_U

[Rico2016]

Shawn Kemp played 14 seasons of NBA basketball. He scored more than 20 ppg ONE TIME :lol

"Who's gonna guard Kemp?" :roll:

Who's gonna guard Julius Randle tho?!

[Roundball_Rock]

Kemp was fine as a #2 option but he got exposed badly as a #1 option after Seattle. Other than Miller, he has to be the most overrated 90's player. People talk about him like he was a MVP level or 1st team all-NBA player. He made all-NBA a total of 3 times and never sniffed MVP...

[Rico2016]

Kemp was fine as a #2 option but he got exposed badly as a #1 option after Seattle. Other than Miller, he has to be the most overrated 90's player. People talk about him like he was a MVP level or 1st team all-NBA player. He made all-NBA a total of 3 times and never sniffed MVP...

But Roundball, who's gonna guard Julius Randle Kemp?!