Phil said the Bulls needed the triangle to make the cast better (Pippen)

[3ball]

.

"We have to find a way to make everyone else better... We have to create other threats" (they didn't already exist)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=svkdpLWHliw


If Pippen was actually good, he would've shown his greatness like any other star does and Phil or his cast-boosting triangle wouldn't be needed.. Pippen was nothing without that offense

[light]

.

"We have to find a way to make everyone else better... We have to create other threats" (they didn't already exist)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=svkdpLWHliw


If Pippen was actually good, he would've shown his greatness like any other star does and Phil or his cast-boosting triangle wouldn't be needed.. Pippen was nothing without that offense

The whole point of the triangle was to get the ball out of Jordan's hands - that's how it made the cast better. Ball movement. That's the entire explanation in a nutshell.

The beauty of the triangle is that there are no set plays, so no one (Jordan) could complain about plays not being run for them, and also the players have freedom to create in whatever way they wanted if they saw the opening (very important for MJ).

It also made the offense difficult to predict since nobody knew what was going to happen next.

[ELITEpower23]

The whole point of the triangle was to get the ball out of Jordan's hands - that's how it made the cast better. Ball movement. That's the entire explanation in a nutshell.

The beauty of the triangle is that there are no set plays, so no one (Jordan) could complain about plays not being run for them, and also the players have freedom to create in whatever way they wanted if they saw the opening (very important for MJ).

It also made the offense difficult to predict since nobody knew what was going to happen next.

http://www.citizencider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/lhtyoFj.gif

[3ball]

The whole point of the triangle was to get the ball out of Jordan's hands - that's how it made the cast better. Ball movement. That's the entire explanation in a nutshell.

The beauty of the triangle is that there are no set plays, so no one (Jordan) could complain about plays not being run for them, and also the players have freedom to create in whatever way they wanted if they saw the opening (very important for MJ).

It also made the offense difficult to predict since nobody knew what was going to happen next.

All the best offenses in history are that way - ball movement - MJ let the ball move while still leading in assists for nearly every playoff run...... And while freeing up teammates by attracting the most attention since Wilt

Why can't lebron do this??? Why can't his teams move the ball so they can be better than 3/9?

How can lebron be anywhere near MJ when MJ produced at a higher rate while playing the best brand of ball movement that elevates all teammates??.. otoh, lebron dominates the ball resulting in weaker teams.

Lebron is just a fraud that developed a resume by forming a strong team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning, hence the Finals streak

[Roundball_Rock]

The whole point of the triangle was to get the ball out of Jordan's hands - that's how it made the cast better. Ball movement. That's the entire explanation in a nutshell.

The beauty of the triangle is that there are no set plays, so no one (Jordan) could complain about plays not being run for them, and also the players have freedom to create in whatever way they wanted if they saw the opening (very important for MJ).

It also made the offense difficult to predict since nobody knew what was going to happen next.

end thread. :applause:

[3ball]

end thread. :applause:

Why can't lebron's teams have good ball movement

He needs the ball taken out of his hands so he isn't 3/9.. he produces at a lower rate and vastly inferior brand, so he wins much less (mostly loses)

Btw, MJ achieved the same rate of production as pre-triangle and the same usage while holding the ball less... His volume DIDN'T go down

Anyway, you guys are boring with no counterarguments

I've defeated you all.. time for new hobbies

If you can't see why MJ is vastly superior, then I feel sorry for you and your intellect... You're certainly on the wrong side of many things, not just this

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why can't lebron's teams have good ball movement

He needs the ball taken out of his hands so he isn't 3/9

Anyway, you guys are boring with no counterarguments

I've defeated you all.. time for new hobbies

If you can't see why MJ is vastly superior, then I feel sorry for you and your intellect... You're certainly on the wrong side of many things, not just this

They're all the same person :oldlol:

[3ball]

They're all the same person :oldlol:

True

[sdot_thadon]

They're all the same person :oldlol:

not quite :oldlol:

[3ball]

Btw, Phil was wrong about the triangle holding MJ down.

MJ achieved the same rate of production as pre-triangle and the same usage despite holding the ball less... His volume DIDN'T go down, and he was still scoring champ despite Phil saying he wouldn't be

So nothing could hold MJ's game down.. he simply honed in on certain parts of his game and still produced the same amount

Ultimately, lebron produces at a lower rate and vastly inferior brand, so he wins much less (mostly loses)

[sdot_thadon]

If Pippen was actually good, he would've shown his greatness like any other star does and Phil or his cast-boosting triangle wouldn't be needed.. Pippen was nothing without that offense

umm Portland ran the triangle?

[ELITEpower23]

They're all the same person :oldlol:

Not quite :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Typically the league leader in shots will be the scoring champ...

All of the team success MJ had came with the same basic context: the same team, same coach, the same system, and same second star. Other legends succeeded in various situations. MJ didn't. He had a revolving door of coaches before Jackson. MJ was a ball hog by nature. He needed the triangle to restrain him.

It also is disingenuous to present Pippen as a "cast" member (a term MJ brought to basketball when he talked about "my supporting cast"--great leadership! :bowdown: ) in Jackson's eyes. We know what Jackson thinks, including reportedly that Pippen was the team's real MVP.

[3ball]

umm Portland ran the triangle?

And?

So he was garbage WITH the triangle too?

Even worse

[sdot_thadon]

And?

So he was garbage WITH the triangle too?

Even worse

Seems like you weren't around for the early 2000s either. Have you watched any basketball that didn't include Mike? Serious question.

[Roundball_Rock]

Seems like you weren't around for the early 2000s either. Have you watched any basketball that didn't include Mike? Serious question.

He claims he hasn't watched basketball since 2011 but it appears he never watched actual games at any point. He thought Horace Grant won 6 rings with the Bulls, for instance. It appears he watches only YouTube highlights.

[3ball]

Typically the league leader in shots will be the scoring champ...

All of the team success MJ had came with the same basic context: the same team, same coach, the same system, and same second star. Other legends succeeded in various situations. MJ didn't. He had a revolving door of coaches before Jackson.

It also is disingenuous to present Pippen as a "cast" member (a term MJ brought to basketball when he talked about "my supporting cast"--great leadership! :bowdown: ) in Jackson's eyes. We know what Jackson thinks, including reportedly that Pippen was the team's real MVP.

Only MJ had good efficiency at that possession usage

That's why only he could win on those bulls teams

Anyone else in history that used 36% of possessions had horrible efficiency, including lebron

And please don't cite one-timers from someone's career where their peak usage ranks towards the low end of MJ's career.... and this low end amount LOST, so they needed to be higher in MJ's distribution to win like he did

The only rings where MJ had human usage was 91' and 96'... But 91' was after mj had been through wars with Detroit... I'm not sure another star could be plugged in there in 1991 without going through the wars with Detroit to develop the bond and chemistry

[Roundball_Rock]

Whatever makes MJ stans sleep better at night.

[3ball]

Seems like you weren't around for the early 2000s either. Have you watched any basketball that didn't include Mike? Serious question.

Pippen wasn't garbage in Portland and fail drastically??

What game are you watching?... We're talking the PLAYOFFS here

He sucked on both ends and was carried by stacked teams

Everything with Pippen is "almost"... He almost won as much without Jordan... He almost beat the Knicks... He almost beat the Lakers... He almost was #2 in MVP... he almost won dpoy... He almost...almost.... Almost...

But never did .. anything... He sucked

But you know what he DID do?... He choked in legendary fashion numerous times... He laid massive eggs ALL THE TIME... he let mj do everything in the clutch for 10 straight years

[3ball]

And btw, the whole argument that "MJ never won without Pippen" can be used for every player (aka Magic never won without Kareem, or lebron never won without getting 2 stars)

Pippen is the only sidekick that people give credit for rings despite having the greatest statistical deficit to a #1 option of any player ever... i.e. Pau never gets credit for 2 rings as if HE won them

And the reality is that 90' KJ destroyed Magic's 1-seeded Lakers to make WCF for 2nd year in a row - that's better than Pippen ever played and he would've 3-peated with MJ from 89-91' while Pippen wet the bed those years.. Pippen simply won the "3-peat with mj" lottery, so the winning spotlight inflated his weak stats

[1987_Lakers]

The whole point of the triangle was to get the ball out of Jordan's hands - that's how it made the cast better. Ball movement. That's the entire explanation in a nutshell.

The beauty of the triangle is that there are no set plays, so no one (Jordan) could complain about plays not being run for them, and also the players have freedom to create in whatever way they wanted if they saw the opening (very important for MJ).

It also made the offense difficult to predict since nobody knew what was going to happen next.

In the book Jordan Rules it was revealed that Chicago tried to sign Danny Ainge during the '90 offseason because he was one of the few guys who could tell MJ to **** off when he demanded the ball. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

All the best offenses in history are that way - ball movement - MJ let the ball move while still leading in assists for nearly every playoff run...... And while freeing up teammates by attracting the most attention since Wilt

Why can't lebron do this??? Why can't his teams move the ball so they can be better than 3/9?

How can lebron be anywhere near MJ when MJ produced at a higher rate while playing the best brand of ball movement that elevates all teammates??.. otoh, lebron dominates the ball resulting in weaker teams.

Lebron is just a fraud that developed a resume by forming a strong team in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning, hence the Finals streak

Did you even watch those 2011-2014 Miami Heat teams? They moved the ball very well, especially their 2013 team. And not all historic offenses have great ball-movement, the 2018 Rockets are a perfect example of this, they had a historic offense .

[light]

Did you even watch those 2011-2014 Miami Heat teams? They moved the ball very well, especially their 2013 team. And not all historic offenses have great ball-movement, the 2018 Rockets are a perfect example of this, they had a historic offense .

Don't mind that guy. He's not serious. Just trolling around.

[1987_Lakers]

"Colter wasn't strong enough to stand up to Jordan," Smith wrote. "... The Bulls were looking for a scorer for their second team, but they also needed someone to stand up to Jordan when he routinely ordered his teammates out of the way late in games."

"He'll tell Michael to (expletive) off when he starts calling for the ball," Bulls assistant coach Johnny Bach said of Ainge . "And sometimes we need that."

[3ball]

Did you even watch those 2011-2014 Miami Heat teams? They moved the ball very well, especially their 2013 team. And not all historic offenses have great ball-movement, the 2018 Rockets are a perfect example of this, they had a historic offense .

They didn't move the ball in 2011 when wade and lebron's dumb, AAU skillsets collided and didn't know what to do..... or in 2014 when they were massively out-assisted in a record blowout loss

So no... They didn't move the ball that well, which is why they were only 2/4, aka massive failure of the expectation

Lebron teamed up with the #2 PER player (best help in league) and was perennial underdog/loser (lost or underdog for 3 of 4 years alongside Wade)... He teamed up with the equivalent of bird or Magic and mostly lost or choked... In record fashion... Aka utter failure and not top 10, let alone comparable to mj

[1987_Lakers]

They didn't move the ball in 2011 when wade and lebron's dumb, AAU skillsets collided and didn't know what to do..... or in 2014 when they were massively out-assisted in a record blowout loss

So no... They didn't move the ball that well, which is why they were only 2/4, aka massive failure of the expectation

Lebron teamed up with the #2 PER player (best help in league) and was perennial underdog/loser (lost or underdog for 3 of 4 years alongside Wade)... He teamed up with the equivalent of bird or Magic and mostly lost or choked... In record fashion... Aka utter failure and not top 10, let alone comparable to mj

Miami out-assisted the same team in the 2013 finals, the Spurs, who are a historically great passing team. During the regular season, Miami was also on par with the Spurs in terms of assist/to ratio. So your theory that LeBron never won a title with ball-movement is false.

[3ball]

Miami out-assisted the same team in the 2013 finals, the Spurs, who are a historically great passing team. During the regular season, Miami was also on par with the Spurs in terms of assist/to ratio. So your theory that LeBron never won a title with ball-movement is false.

That wasn't my theory

My theory is that lebron's teams have weak ball movement, which is why they're 3/9 and have weaker teams than they should've had

You pointing out 1 example in 17 years that doesn't quite fit my theory doesn't disprove it, and infact proves it by being a rare exception

And it isn't a theory - it's historical fact - lebron's teams average assist ranking is 15th for his career... That's much lower than the typical champion (7th) and lower than guys like MJ, Bird, Duncan, Curry, Kawhi.. lebron's ball-dominance yields low assist teams - it's statistical fact..

infact, his teammates see their assists crater alongside him - lower teammate assists results in low TEAM assists and a low ball movement brand that struggles on the championship level.. These are all facts

In 2017, he won a pathetic 51 games with peak Kyrie - that's pathetic - so people called him an underdog when ge should been flirting with 70-win juggernaut like Kawhi and Curry did... Ultimately, lebron's ball-dominance makes him a perennial underdog loser n the championship level... It's a knock on him (and his fault) that he's always an underdog and yields lower team ceilings

[1987_Lakers]

That wasn't my theory

My theory is that lebron's teams have weak ball movement, which is why they're 3/9 and have weaker teams than they should've had

You pointing out 1 example in 17 years that doesn't quite fit my theory doesn't disprove it, and infact proves it by being a rare exception

And it isn't a theory - it's historical fact - lebron's teams average assist ranking is 15th for his career... That's much lower than the typical champion (7th) and lower than guys like MJ, Bird, Duncan, Curry, Kawhi.. lebron's ball-dominance yields low assist teams - it's statistical fact..

infact, his teammates see their assists crater alongside him - lower teammate assists results in low TEAM assists and a low ball movement brand that struggles on the championship level.. These are all facts

In 2017, he won a pathetic 51 games with peak Kyrie - that's pathetic - so people called him an underdog when ge should been flirting with 70-win juggernaut like Kawhi and Curry did... Ultimately, lebron's ball-dominance makes him a perennial underdog loser n the championship level... It's a knock on him (and his fault) that he's always an underdog and yields lower team ceilings
Nice job ignoring 2013.

And yet, LeBron's offenses are mostly always in the top 5 and he beat historically great passing teams in the Finals (Spurs & Warriors). I really don't see your point, who cares if he hasn't played on great passing teams for most of his career, his offenses are still elite. He carried a bunch of bums in 2018 to the #5 offense overall, even in 2009 & 2010 his offenses were top 6 at worst. When MJ was a one man show in the 80's, Chicago was never a top 5 offense. It wasn't until Pippen developed and Phil came in when Chicago's offense really took off. LeBron on the other hand doesn't need much help to carry an offense.

[light]

A Triangle Story

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/collins-michael.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/threatt.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/cartwright.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/grant.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/collins-jackson.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jackson-Room.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/jackson-jordan.png

And with that the Bulls installed the triangle.

All in an effort to force Michael Jordan to play like LeBron James so that the Bulls can win titles.

[Roundball_Rock]

A Triangle Story

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/collins-michael.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/threatt.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/cartwright.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/grant.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/collins-jackson.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jackson-Room.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/jackson-jordan.png

And with that the Bulls installed the triangle.

All in an effort to force Michael Jordan to play like LeBron James so that the Bulls can win titles.

You went nuclear on MJ stans. They don't know any of this because it is erased from the MJ hagiography.

Your quotes say it all: Jordan ball (Iverson ball) didn't work and MJ was the reason they had to install the triangle, as well as make another associated change and put the ball in Pippen's hand as the primary playmaker (i.e., a player who would pass first and make sure the entire team was involved). It is no coincidence that this is when the Bulls started winning.

We also saw MJ-lite with and without the triangle. Kobe also won nothing without the triangle and PJ.

LeBron, Kareem, and basically every top all-time great except MJ and Kobe never needed to be taught team ball...

[ELITEpower23]

Pippen wasn't garbage in Portland and fail drastically??

What game are you watching?... We're talking the PLAYOFFS here

He sucked on both ends and was carried by stacked teams

Everything with Pippen is "almost"... He almost won as much without Jordan... He almost beat the Knicks... He almost beat the Lakers... He almost was #2 in MVP... he almost won dpoy... He almost...almost.... Almost...

But never did .. anything... He sucked

But you know what he DID do?... He choked in legendary fashion numerous times... He laid massive eggs ALL THE TIME... he let mj do everything in the clutch for 10 straight years

MJ ALMOST got out of the 1st round without Pippen. He played 15 years total: 10 years with Pip and 5 without. In the 5 years MJ played without Pippen he mustered up:

0x 2nd round appearances
0x 1st round wins
1x playoff game win

5 years w/o Pip and he was only able to win ONE playoff game? Thoughts?

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ ALMOST got out of the 1st round without Pippen. He played 15 years totsl: 10 years with Pip and 5 without. In the 5 years MJ played without Pippen he mustered up:

0x 2nd round appearances
0x 1st round wins
1x playoff game win

5 years w/o Pip and he was only able to win ONE playoff game? Thoughts?

Don't forget a career losing record in the regular season too. Other than MJ, what other top 10 all-time player did so little without his best teammate? Kareem won without Magic, LeBron won without Wade, Russell won without Cousy, Shaq and Kobe won without each other, Duncan without Robinson, and so on. Magic did not win without KAJ but he made a NBA finals. Bird only played 1 year, his rookie year, without McHale but he had the Celtics in the ECF and 61 wins (drafted to a 29 win team, comparable to MJ joining a 27 win team).

Jordan was doing nothing but putting up big scoring numbers and selling sneakers until Pippen and PJ showed up.

[ShawkFactory]

Why can't lebron's teams have good ball movement

He needs the ball taken out of his hands so he isn't 3/9.. he produces at a lower rate and vastly inferior brand, so he wins much less (mostly loses)

Btw, MJ achieved the same rate of production as pre-triangle and the same usage while holding the ball less... His volume DIDN'T go down

Anyway, you guys are boring with no counterarguments

I've defeated you all.. time for new hobbies

If you can't see why MJ is vastly superior, then I feel sorry for you and your intellect... You're certainly on the wrong side of many things, not just this

Lol I love how quickly you abandoned thread. You went from talking about pippen and the triangle, were slayed in the first post, and then completely switched gears to talking about Lebron again.

[sdot_thadon]

A Triangle Story

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/collins-michael.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/threatt.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/cartwright.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/grant.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/collins-jackson.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jackson-Room.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/jackson-jordan.png

And with that the Bulls installed the triangle.

All in an effort to force Michael Jordan to play like LeBron James so that the Bulls can win titles.

Sent him back to his cave on that note.....

[Uncle Drew]

.

"We have to find a way to make everyone else better... We have to create other threats" (they didn't already exist)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=svkdpLWHliw


If Pippen was actually good, he would've shown his greatness like any other star does and Phil or his cast-boosting triangle wouldn't be needed.. Pippen was nothing without that offense

What a weird way to interpret those words. What he is truly saying is that a team with just one guy hogging the ball (Jordan) wouldn't go anywhere. The less time Jordan would hold the ball, the less shots he would take, the better.

[ELITEpower23]

Don't forget a career losing record in the regular season too. Other than MJ, what other top 10 all-time player did so little without his best teammate? Kareem won without Magic, LeBron won without Wade, Russell won without Cousy, Shaq and Kobe won without each other, Duncan without Robinson, and so on. Magic did not win without KAJ but he made a NBA finals. Bird only played 1 year, his rookie year, without McHale but he had the Celtics in the ECF and 61 wins (drafted to a 29 win team, comparable to MJ joining a 27 win team).

Jordan was doing nothing but putting up big scoring numbers and selling sneakers until Pippen and PJ showed up.

This is good facts. Every top 5 star did this except for MJ.

KAJ, LBJ, Shaq, Duncan, Russell

#NotMJ

[ELITEpower23]

A Triangle Story

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/collins-michael.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/threatt.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/cartwright.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/grant.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/collins-jackson.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jackson-Room.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/jackson-jordan.png

And with that the Bulls installed the triangle.

All in an effort to force Michael Jordan to play like LeBron James so that the Bulls can win titles.

This could be the biggest owning I have ever seen on a forum. Wow, what an epic post.

[86Celtics]

I like that so many James fanboys bash Jordan for being a ballhog early in career and yet they completely ignore the elephant in the room, the fact unlike James Jordan did change his ways in order to win. He learned to share the ball more and to get his teammates involved from the start. He ended up as a 6x time champion, as the most important member of a dynasty and as the vast majority's GOAT. You think that he would achieve any of the above if he had kept his one man show?

James on the other hand wants to play his way and his way alone. He had Blatt fired for trying to run his version of the Princeton offence, among other things, despite the fact that team's record at the time was 30-11. His relatively short spell at Miami was his best in terms of him playing within a system and it's no wonder that his stats decreased but his success increased. But he reverted back to type once he left for Cleveland. Only now in his 17th season he's seemed more willing to stop monopolizing the ball.

[3ball]

.
^^^^ the previous responses ("MJ was a ball-hog") are at the root of people misunderstanding MJ's game and greatness:



PLAYOFFS


% of Possessions Used (Usage)

88' MJ with coach Collins... 35.2%
89' MJ with coach Collins... 35.4%

90' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 36.1%
92' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 37.1%
93' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 38.0%
97' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 35.5%
98' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 36.6%


FGA per game - Playoffs

88' MJ with coach Collins... 26.0
89' MJ with coach Collins... 22.9

90' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.6
92' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.4
93' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 27.8
97' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.2
98' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 25.0


^^^ Phil won by using jordan MORE.. :kobe:

he never took the ball out of MJ's hands... he just THOUGHT he would

he THOUGHT the triangle would prevent MJ from being scoring champ and bottle him up... that's what phil THOUGHT...

Phil was wrong because he's backwards in his thinking.. Racist?.. Nah.... But lebron knows what I'm talking about (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ZXApT875I&t=0m35s)... Phil's backwards thinking made him view MJ as the stereotypical, playground-style ball-stopper - this was the common thinking at the time... He conflated jordan's high shot attempts with long hold-time, which MJ didn't have.. So Phil's backwards thinking couldn't see that MJ was extremely fundamentally-sound, and usually scored QUICKLY upon the catch after moving off-ball - his failure to realize MJ's fundamental, off-ball game made him think the triangle would bottle MJ up and he wouldn't be scoring champ no more... Lolololololol... ROFL... So it turns out that Phil is a closet "good ol boy" who thought he was gonna reign the brotha in..... lol... What an amazing doc... From Phil's own mouth no less.... "You won't be scoring champ no more (brotha)"

And all this time I thought Phil chose the triangle because he thought it fit MJ's off-ball game - now we learn that Phil was like everyone else and thought MJ was a ball-hog... he thought the triangle would essentially re-distribute the ball and shut him down...So MJ had to prove Phil wrong just like everyone else by showing that he was a fundamentally-sound player and his off-ball game FIT the triangle - it was perfect for it and wouldn't get shut down like Phil said it would... MJ was infact the goat off-ball assist target that increased teammates' assists and allowed ball movement - teammates grew by leaps and bounds next to him as the record shows - only MJ won by growing single digit rookies into all-star caliber (Pippen/Grant/BJ)... Again, MJ had to prove everyone wrong on this - he had to show that he wasn't a gunner, but infact the most efficient wing scorer per possession EVER.

so Phil literally didn't know shit about MJ's game and I respect him even less than before .. he's just a fool with lucky timing.. Look how Phil relies on MJ in the clutch more than anyone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=30m20s)... lolol... And obviously lebron would've sensed the backwards thinking and hated him, especially since Phil's thinking about ball-domination actually apply to him!! Lebron is the unfundamentally-sound ball-dominator that the no-point-guard triangle shuts down!!!!... Phil wouldn't last 2 weeks with LeGM because lebron lacks the skill to play in the triangle.

[Roundball_Rock]

What a weird way to interpret those words. What he is truly saying is that a team with just one guy hogging the ball (Jordan) wouldn't go anywhere. The less time Jordan would hold the ball, the less shots he would take, the better.

Exactly, especially spinning it against Pippen as Pippen was a key ingredient in the push to stop ball hogging. Jordan was the problem; Pippen was the key player in the solution.

[3ball]

Exactly, especially spinning it against Pippen as Pippen was a key ingredient in the push to stop ball hogging. Jordan was the problem; Pippen was the key player in the solution.


^^^^ the previous responses ("MJ was a ball-hog") are at the root of people misunderstanding MJ's game and greatness:



PLAYOFFS


% of Possessions Used (Usage)

88' MJ with coach Collins... 35.2%
89' MJ with coach Collins... 35.4%

90' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 36.1%
92' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 37.1%
93' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 38.0%
97' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 35.5%
98' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 36.6%


FGA per game - Playoffs

88' MJ with coach Collins... 26.0
89' MJ with coach Collins... 22.9

90' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.6
92' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.4
93' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 27.8
97' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.2
98' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 25.0


^^^ Phil won by using jordan MORE.. :kobe:

he never took the ball out of MJ's hands... he just THOUGHT he would

he THOUGHT the triangle would prevent MJ from being scoring champ and bottle him up... that's what phil THOUGHT...

Phil was wrong because he's backwards in his thinking.. Racist?.. Nah.... But lebron knows what I'm talking about (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D1ZXApT875I&t=0m35s)... Phil's backwards thinking made him view MJ as the stereotypical, playground-style ball-stopper - this was the common thinking at the time... He conflated jordan's high shot attempts with long hold-time, which MJ didn't have.. So Phil's backwards thinking couldn't see that MJ was extremely fundamentally-sound, and usually scored QUICKLY upon the catch after moving off-ball - his failure to realize MJ's fundamental, off-ball game made him think the triangle would bottle MJ up and he wouldn't be scoring champ no more... Lolololololol... ROFL... So it turns out that Phil is a closet "good ol boy" who thought he was gonna reign the brotha in..... lol... What an amazing doc... From Phil's own mouth no less.... "You won't be scoring champ no more (brotha)"

And all this time I thought Phil chose the triangle because he thought it fit MJ's off-ball game - now we learn that Phil was like everyone else and thought MJ was a ball-hog... he thought the triangle would essentially re-distribute the ball and shut him down...So MJ had to prove Phil wrong just like everyone else by showing that he was a fundamentally-sound player and his off-ball game FIT the triangle - it was perfect for it and wouldn't get shut down like Phil said it would... MJ was infact the goat off-ball assist target that increased teammates' assists and allowed ball movement - teammates grew by leaps and bounds next to him as the record shows - only MJ won by growing single digit rookies into all-star caliber (Pippen/Grant/BJ)... Again, MJ had to prove everyone wrong on this - he had to show that he wasn't a gunner, but infact the most efficient wing scorer per possession EVER.

so Phil literally didn't know shit about MJ's game and I respect him even less than before .. he's just a fool with lucky timing.. And obviously lebron would've sensed the backwards thinking and hated him, especially since Phil's thinking about ball-domination actually apply to him!! Lebron is the unfundamentally-sound ball-dominator that the no-point-guard triangle shuts down!!!!.

[Overdrive]

Don't forget a career losing record in the regular season too. Other than MJ, what other top 10 all-time player did so little without his best teammate? Kareem won without Magic, LeBron won without Wade, Russell won without Cousy, Shaq and Kobe won without each other, Duncan without Robinson, and so on. Magic did not win without KAJ but he made a NBA finals. Bird only played 1 year, his rookie year, without McHale but he had the Celtics in the ECF and 61 wins (drafted to a 29 win team, comparable to MJ joining a 27 win team).

Jordan was doing nothing but putting up big scoring numbers and selling sneakers until Pippen and PJ showed up.

Other than Bird any of these players played with multiple great #2 players.

[Roundball_Rock]

he THOUGHT the triangle would prevent MJ from being scoring champ

That is because MJ calculated if he scored 8 every quarter he would average 32 and that would be enough. MJ was unwilling to give up the scoring crown...


he never took the ball out of MJ's hands

Sure he did. This is clear as day to anyone who watches Bulls' games in 91' and compares it to games from 89'.


Phil's backwards thinking made him view MJ as the stereotypical, playground-style ball-stopper - this was the common thinking at the time

Is it a coincidence Phil Jackson, Doug Collins, and even Jerry Reinsdorf all reached the same conclusion? The Bulls considered trading MJ in 88' after they got a huge offer from the Clippers. They concluded they could not win with MJ--but ultimately backed off due to concern over fan backlash (so on non-basketball grounds).


yet they completely ignore the elephant in the room, the fact unlike James Jordan did change his ways in order to win. He learned to share the ball more and to get his teammates involved from the start

This is specious reasoning. Jordan was doing nothing but losing playing Jordan/Iverson ball; LeBron has won using his style 3x and made 9 finals.

Only Jordan and Kobe needed to "learn" to share the ball (over years and it took the GOAT coach to do it--imagine them having any other coach). Every other legend understood the concept of team basketball from day one.


He had Blatt fired for trying to run his version of the Princeton offence, among other things, despite the fact that team's record at the time was 30-11

What teams has he coached for since then? Blatt wasn't a good coach, which is why he had no demand after that.

It is bizarre to argue firing Blatt was a bad move since they won a championship with the new coach.


His relatively short spell at Miami was his best in terms of him playing within a system and it's no wonder that his stats decreased but his success increased But he reverted back to type once he left for Cleveland

His stats went down even further in Cleveland.

LeBron 2006-2010: 29/7/7 on 52.2% eFG
LeBron 2011-2014: 27/8/7 on 57.7% eFG
LeBron 2015-2018: 26/8/8 on 56.8% eFG
LeBron 2019-2020: 27/8/10 on 55.7% eFG


Only now in his 17th season he's seemed more willing to stop monopolizing the ball.

His usage in his 17th season is exactly the same as in his 16th and 15th seasons (and 0.5% more than his Miami days). This is an example of how perception and narrative runs ahead of reality.

[3ball]

That is because MJ calculated if he scored 8 every quarter he would average 32 and that would be enough. MJ was unwilling to give up the scoring crown...



Sure he did. This is clear as day to anyone who watches Bulls' games in 91' and compares it to games from 89'.



Is it a coincidence Phil Jackson, Doug Collins, and even Jerry Reinsdorf all reached the same conclusion? The Bulls considered trading MJ in 88' after they got a huge offer from the Clippers. They concluded they could not win with MJ--but ultimately backed off due to concern over fan backlash (so on non-basketball grounds).




Bulls would never trade the only MVP/dpoy ever to that point.. stop it

And you're wrong because mj shot more and used more possesssions under phil

Phil thought MJ wouldn't be scoring champ under the triangle because he thought mj was just a gunner that hogged the ball and didn't allow ball movement

So MJ had to prove Phil wrong just like everyone else by proving he was a fundamentally-sound player - his off-ball game was perfect for the triangle and wouldn't get shut down like Phil said it would... MJ was infact the goat off-ball assist target that increased teammates' assists and allowed ball movement - teammates grew by leaps and bounds next to him as the record shows - only MJ won by growing single digit rookies into all-star caliber (Pippen/Grant/BJ)...

Again, MJ had to prove everyone wrong on this - he had to show that he wasn't a gunner, but infact the most efficient wing scorer per possession EVER.

so Phil literally didn't know shit about MJ's game and I respect him even less than before .. he's just a fool with lucky timing.. And obviously lebron would've hated Phil since Phil's thinking about ball-domination actually apply to him!! Lebron is the unfundamentally-sound ball-dominator that the no-point-guard triangle shuts down!!!!.

[ELITEpower23]

That is because MJ calculated if he scored 8 every quarter he would average 32 and that would be enough. MJ was unwilling to give up the scoring crown...



Sure he did. This is clear as day to anyone who watches Bulls' games in 91' and compares it to games from 89'.



Is it a coincidence Phil Jackson, Doug Collins, and even Jerry Reinsdorf all reached the same conclusion? The Bulls considered trading MJ in 88' after they got a huge offer from the Clippers. They concluded they could not win with MJ--but ultimately backed off due to concern over fan backlash (so on non-basketball grounds).



This is specious reasoning. Jordan was doing nothing but losing playing Jordan/Iverson ball; LeBron has won using his style 3x and made 9 finals.

Only Jordan and Kobe needed to "learn" to share the ball (over years and it took the GOAT coach to do it--imagine them having any other coach). Every other legend understood the concept of team basketball from day one.



What teams has he coached for since then? Blatt wasn't a good coach, which is why he had no demand after that.

It is bizarre to argue firing Blatt was a bad move since they won a championship with the new coach.



His stats went down even further in Cleveland.

LeBron 2006-2010: 29/7/7 on 52.2% eFG
LeBron 2011-2014: 27/8/7 on 57.7% eFG
LeBron 2015-2018: 26/8/8 on 56.8% eFG
LeBron 2019-2020: 27/8/10 on 55.7% eFG



His usage in his 17th season is exactly the same as in his 16th and 15th seasons (and 0.5% more than his Miami days). This is an example of how perception and narrative runs ahead of reality.

https://i.postimg.cc/hvhLCRP5/911-report.jpg

[3ball]

That is because MJ calculated if he scored 8 every quarter he would average 32 and that would be enough. MJ was unwilling to give up the scoring crown...




8 every quarter is less than what he averaged pre-phil, so that would've been lower volume

He shot HIGHER volume with Phil

Phil used him MORE than Collins did

So your argument makes no sense







Sure he did. This is clear as day to anyone who watches Bulls' games in 91' and compares it to games from 89'.



No, he didn't

MJ shot more under phil than Collins and used more possesssions.. he was more ball-dominant in 1989 but that was a brief stretch - he was mostly off-ball with Collins like the rest of his career

People just misperceived MJ because they didn't think he could be that fundamentally-sound

Phil didn't realize that MJ was fundamentally-sound, so his game fit the triangle and wouldn't get locked up.. he thought mj was a playground ball-dominator like lebron and would struggle to produce or find shots in the triangle

6 rings and 2 three-peats later.... :oldlol:

[ELITEpower23]

The whole point of the triangle was to get the ball out of Jordan's hands - that's how it made the cast better. Ball movement. That's the entire explanation in a nutshell.

The beauty of the triangle is that there are no set plays, so no one (Jordan) could complain about plays not being run for them, and also the players have freedom to create in whatever way they wanted if they saw the opening (very important for MJ).

It also made the offense difficult to predict since nobody knew what was going to happen next.

https://i.postimg.cc/hvhLCRP5/911-report.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

Bulls would never trade the only MVP/dpoy ever to that point..

This is documented.


According to the book The Jordan Rules, written by former Chicago Tribune sportswriter Sam Smith, the Bulls were looking to deal Michael Jordan to L.A. in exchange for the No. 1 and No. 6 overall picks in the '88 draft.

Smith also believes Chicago could have dealt either Charles Oakley or Horace Grant for young point guard Kevin Johnson.

With the acquired picks from the Clips, the Bulls could have drafted 7'4" center Rik Smits No. 1 and then went with future six-time NBA All-Star Mitch Richmond at No. 6 if he was available (he was taken fifth overall by Golden State).

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/762998-chicago-bulls-what-if-michael-jordan-was-traded-to-the-clippers

This is discussed for 2-3 pages in the book. The Bulls didn't do it for PR/ticket sale reasons. On basketball grounds they had concluded they couldn't win with a ball hog.


And you're wrong because mj shot more and used more possesssions under phil

People can watch the tape themselves. Usage only counts FGA, FTA, and TOV. It doesn't factor in how long players had the ball. Anyone can watch the games and see how Chicago's offense was initiated to see the change...


8 every quarter is less than what he averaged pre-phil, so that would've been lower volume

He went from 33.6 to 31.5 PPG in 91' so his volume did decrease, just not enough to deny him the scoring crown (which he evidently valued).


Phil used him MORE than Collins did

That's because MJ's scoring and FGA dipped during the 20-25 games where they ran the MJ as PG experiment. This experiment failed, as quotes posted earlier in the thread noted. "He won't let go of the ball." :lol

[3ball]

.
^^^^ the previous responses ("MJ was a ball-hog") are at the root of people misunderstanding MJ's game and greatness:



PLAYOFFS


% of Possessions Used (Usage)

88' MJ with coach Collins... 35.2%
89' MJ with coach Collins... 35.4%

90' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 36.1%
92' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 37.1%
93' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 38.0%
97' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 35.5%
98' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 36.6%


FGA per game - Playoffs

88' MJ with coach Collins... 26.0
89' MJ with coach Collins... 22.9

90' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.6
92' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.4
93' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 27.8
97' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.2
98' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 25.0


^^^ Phil won by using jordan MORE..... :kobe:

he never took the ball out of MJ's hands... he just THOUGHT he would

he THOUGHT the triangle would prevent MJ from being scoring champ and bottle him up... that's what phil THOUGHT...

Phil viewed MJ as the stereotypical, playground-style ball-stopper - this was the common thinking at the time... He conflated jordan's high shot attempts with long hold-time, which MJ didn't have.. So Phil's backwards thinking couldn't see that MJ was extremely fundamentally-sound, and usually scored QUICKLY upon the catch after moving off-ball - his failure to realize MJ's fundamental, off-ball game made him think the triangle would bottle MJ up and he wouldn't be scoring champ no more... Lolololololol... ROFL... lol... What an amazing doc... From Phil's own mouth no less.... "You won't be scoring champ no more"

I previously thought Phil chose the triangle because he thought it fit MJ's off-ball game - now we learn that Phil was like everyone else and thought MJ was a ball-hog... he thought the triangle would essentially re-distribute the ball and shut him down...So MJ had to prove Phil wrong just like everyone else by showing that he was a fundamentally-sound player and his off-ball game FIT the triangle - it was perfect and wouldn't get shut down like Phil said it would... MJ was infact the goat off-ball assist target that increased teammates' assists and allowed ball movement - teammates grew by leaps and bounds next to him as the record shows - only MJ won by growing single digit rookies into all-star caliber (Pippen/Grant/BJ)... Again, MJ had to prove everyone wrong on this - he had to show that he wasn't a gunner, but infact the most efficient wing scorer per possession EVER.

so Phil literally didn't know shit about MJ's game and I respect him even less than before .. he's just a fool with lucky timing.. And obviously lebron would've hated Phil since Phil's thinking about ball-domination actually apply to him!! Lebron is the unfundamentally-sound ball-dominator that couldn't play in the no-point-guard triangle!!!!... Phil wouldn't last 2 weeks with LeGM because lebron lacks the skill to play in the triangle.

[Roundball_Rock]

He has nothing, other than spamming the same post 3-4 times. :lol

[ELITEpower23]

He has nothing, other than spamming the same post 3-4 times. :lol

Yep. He should be banned for that

[3ball]

He has nothing, other than spamming the same post 3-4 times. :lol

You never responded to any of it

I've flatly proven you wrong and exposed the widespread misperception with the higher volume and usage stats under Phil - your only response is to say that MJ made sure he got 8 points a quarter (less than pre-phil)

That means I win

Carry on

[LAmbruh]

He has nothing, other than spamming the same post 3-4 times. :lol

:lol

[ELITEpower23]

A Triangle Story

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/collins-michael.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/threatt.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/cartwright.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/grant.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/collins-jackson.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/Jackson-Room.png

https://s7.gifyu.com/images/jackson-jordan.png

And with that the Bulls installed the triangle.

All in an effort to force Michael Jordan to play like LeBron James so that the Bulls can win titles.

Anyone?

[3ball]

Anyone?


^^^^ MJ proved the ball hog narrative wrong by winning and taking MORE shots under Phil:



PLAYOFFS


% of Possessions Used (Usage)

88' MJ with coach Collins... 35.2%
89' MJ with coach Collins... 35.4%

90' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 36.1%
92' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 37.1%
93' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 38.0%
97' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 35.5%
98' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 36.6%


FGA per game - Playoffs

88' MJ with coach Collins... 26.0
89' MJ with coach Collins... 22.9

90' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.6
92' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.4
93' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 27.8
97' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 26.2
98' MJ with Phil Jackson.... 25.0


^^^ Phil won by using jordan MORE..... :kobe:

he never took the ball out of MJ's hands... he just THOUGHT he would

he THOUGHT the triangle would prevent MJ from being scoring champ and bottle him up... that's what phil THOUGHT...

Phil viewed MJ as the stereotypical, playground-style ball-stopper - this was the common thinking at the time... He conflated jordan's high shot attempts with long hold-time, which MJ didn't have.. So Phil's backwards thinking couldn't see that MJ was extremely fundamentally-sound, and usually scored QUICKLY upon the catch after moving off-ball - his failure to realize MJ's fundamental, off-ball game made him think the triangle would bottle MJ up and he wouldn't be scoring champ no more... Lolololololol... ROFL... lol... What an amazing doc... From Phil's own mouth no less.... "You won't be scoring champ no more"

I previously thought Phil chose the triangle because he thought it fit MJ's off-ball game - now we learn that Phil was like everyone else and thought MJ was a ball-hog... he thought the triangle would essentially re-distribute the ball and shut him down...So MJ had to prove Phil wrong just like everyone else by showing that he was a fundamentally-sound player and his off-ball game FIT the triangle - it was perfect and wouldn't get shut down like Phil said it would... MJ was infact the goat off-ball assist target that increased teammates' assists and allowed ball movement - teammates grew by leaps and bounds next to him as the record shows - only MJ won by growing single digit rookies into all-star caliber (Pippen/Grant/BJ)... Again, MJ had to prove everyone wrong on this - he had to show that he wasn't a gunner, but infact the most efficient wing scorer per possession EVER.

so Phil literally didn't know shit about MJ's game and I respect him even less than before .. he's just a fool with lucky timing.. And obviously lebron would've hated Phil since Phil's thinking about ball-domination actually apply to him!! Lebron is the unfundamentally-sound ball-dominator that couldn't play in the no-point-guard triangle!!!!... Phil wouldn't last 2 weeks with LeGM because lebron lacks the skill to play in the triangle.

[86Celtics]

This is specious reasoning. Jordan was doing nothing but losing playing Jordan/Iverson ball; LeBron has won using his style 3x and made 9 finals.

Only Jordan and Kobe needed to "learn" to share the ball (over years and it took the GOAT coach to do it--imagine them having any other coach). Every other legend understood the concept of team basketball from day one.

He's made 9 finals because he played in the weakest conference ever. His most dominant teams were when he was in Miami and was himself part of a system. Playing his way has resulted in 1 title with Cleveland. And that's one of the biggest upsets in history.

Jordan came from Dean Smith's system in North Carolina. He wasn't a ballhog before he got to Chicago in a team full of either mediocrities or former great players who were well past it. For a guy with his drive to win, it's not difficult to understand why he took some convincing to trust his teammates and share the ball more.



What teams has he coached for since then? Blatt wasn't a good coach, which is why he had no demand after that.

It is bizarre to argue firing Blatt was a bad move since they won a championship with the new coach.


Nonsense. Blatt is a very good coach, the fact that no NBA team approached him after his dismissal doesn't mean anything. His teams in Europe were always well-drilled and greater than the sum of their parts. And in any case, no one with a straight face can claim that Lue is a better coach than Blatt. His sole purpose on the Cavs was to accomodate James' wishes.



His stats went down even further in Cleveland.

LeBron 2006-2010: 29/7/7 on 52.2% eFG
LeBron 2011-2014: 27/8/7 on 57.7% eFG
LeBron 2015-2018: 26/8/8 on 56.8% eFG
LeBron 2019-2020: 27/8/10 on 55.7% eFG



His usage in his 17th season is exactly the same as in his 16th and 15th seasons (and 0.5% more than his Miami days). This is an example of how perception and narrative runs ahead of reality.

Care to post his playoff stats compared to his Miami days?

[Roundball_Rock]

Anyone?

They avoid receipts like vampires avoid sunlight. They want to live in their fantasyland.


He's made 9 finals because he played in the weakest conference ever.

Was he? I noticed whenever Wade/Kyrie and Pippen are compared that point is never made yet it always comes up with MJ and LeBron. It is my understanding that Pippen was on the same team as MJ and Wade/Kyrie the same team as LeBron those years...Which is it?

Either way, it isn't relevant. Whatever they did was working so there wasn't the same imperative to change like there was with the Bulls.


He wasn't a ballhog before he got to Chicago in a team full of either mediocrities or former great players who were well past it.

He was drafted to a team with a 23 PPG scorer and a 16 PPG third option. It is a myth that he had no help. He is just a ballhog. He took 40% more shots than anyone else on the Dream Team (and about twice as many as the third most frequent shooter). He did the same stuff on all-star teams.


Blatt is a very good coach, the fact that no NBA team approached him after his dismissal doesn't mean anything

Good coaches get approached by NBA teams. :lol


Care to post his playoff stats compared to his Miami days?

This playoff nonsense is idiotic. Those are small samples with people playing different opponents (so not apples to apples comparisons). There also are different lengths of playoff runs. All these combine to produce a lot more variance year to year in those numbers.

The best way to boost your playoff numbers is to lose early and avoid the top teams.

If you want those numbers feel free to post them. basketballreference.com

[86Celtics]

They avoid receipts like vampires avoid sunlight. They want to live in their fantasyland.



Was he? I noticed whenever Wade/Kyrie and Pippen are compared that point is never made yet it always comes up with MJ and LeBron. It is my understanding that Pippen was on the same team as MJ and Wade/Kyrie the same team as LeBron those years...Which is it?

Either way, it isn't relevant. Whatever they did was working so there wasn't the same imperative to change like there was with the Bulls.

It is relevant. You just don't like the implication. It's the same argument that you make that Jordan's Bulls had no real competition.


He was drafted to a team with a 23 PPG scorer and a 16 PPG third option. It is a myth that he had no help. He is just a ballhog. He took 40% more shots than anyone else on the Dream Team (and about twice as many as the third most frequent shooter). He did the same stuff on all-star teams.

Ridiculous. Those Bulls were a bad team. They wouldn't be in the lottery otherwise with a 27-55 record. Jordan was a ballhog early in his career, but not without a reason. Once he got decent teammates that had to stop and he did just that even though reluctantly. After his teammates started to deliver on a more consistent basis, he was still prone to doing it but no one is perfect.


Good coaches get approached by NBA teams. :lol

As long as they have an American background. How many coaches who came from Europe do you know that were offered headcoaching jobs in NBA? I can only think of D'Antoni and Kokoskov apart from Blatt and both of them spent years as assistants. You really think that the top coaches in Europe aren't in the same tier as NBA coaches? The fact that he was approached in the first place says a lot. In any case, Blatt's career speaks for itself. Blatt reached the Finals in his single full season. He has won national championships, an Olympic medal, a Euroleague and a European Championship with Russia beating Spain in Madrid. What has Lue done in comparison? A NBA championship riding the coattails of James?


This playoff nonsense is idiotic. Those are small samples with people playing different opponents (so not apples to apples comparisons). There also are different lengths of playoff runs. All these combine to produce a lot more variance year to year in those numbers.

The best way to boost your playoff numbers is to lose early and avoid the top teams.

If you want those numbers feel free to post them. basketballreference.com

You're talking about small samples when you bring up Jordan's Olympic tournament in 92 every time it suits you? That's cute.

Anyway, to sum this up. You bash Jordan for being a ballhog despite him buying into the triangle and winning 6 championships using it. You praise James for his style of play even though his time of possession is unheard of for a forward and more importantly he's won far less.

If this isn't an agenda, I don't know what is.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is relevant. You just don't like the implication.

Life is more subtle than that. You can 1) believe a conference or league was weak 2) recognize that a team was nonetheless having success. I personally do think the East was weak for most of LeBron's time there (2008-2012 was an exception). That has been my consistent view. I don't say it was weak when it comes to LeBron and then discard that view when it is Wade or Kyrie being discussed.


Ridiculous. Those Bulls were a bad team. They wouldn't be in the lottery otherwise with a 27-55 record

They had the #3 pick of course they were bad. Almost every top all-time great went to a bad team. The difference is the team improved notably when they got there, which failed to happen in MJ's case, hence the special excuse. Kareem was drafted to a 27 win team too, for example. Bird 29. Just go on down the line. This is a joke talking point.


Jordan was a ballhog early in his career, but not without a reason. Once he got decent teammates that had to stop and he did just that even though reluctantly.

He had more scoring help early on than later.


As long as they have an American background.

He made a NBA finals and his team was in 1st in the East the following year. If he got credit for those achievements, he would have been hired. The foreign background hindered his chances of getting in the door but the NBA got to see him in action in the spotlight.


You're talking about small samples when you bring up Jordan's Olympic tournament in 92 every time it suits you?

Misleading--I always follow the DT reference with mentioning all his all-star teams to broaden out the sample.

The fact is every time MJ was on a basketball court as a pro he dominated the shots.


You praise James for his style of play

Link? I don't recall saying much about his style of play or LeBron ball, other than that he is unselfish and increases his teammates' efficiency. That is separate from praising "LeBron ball" write large.

[Hey Yo]

He's made 9 finals because he played in the weakest conference ever.
You're talking about Magic and the Lakers in the 80's, right?

Pretty sure LA's road to the Finals in 1987 was by far the weakest / easiest in the modern era. The 3 teams they beat had a combined record of 118-128.