Here's why Hakeem"s 95' ring is a top 5 goat ring

[3ball]

- demolished MVP Robinson and Shaq/Penny

- won while prime MJ/Pippen were in same playoffs (yes we know it wasn't the real MJ but still)

- biggest burden/possession usage to ever win outside of Jordan (35.9% usage)

- only player to win with 25+ fga and 45% outside of MJ (the only high volume, high efficiency ring outside of mj)

[Horatio33]

Something something Michael Jordan.

[Manny98]

Did he beat a 73 win team doe

[SouBeachTalents]

Swept the team that beat Jordan

[3ball]

Did he beat a 73 win team doe

MJ didn't even beat a 66 or 67 win team like Dwight or Baron, so does that mean he's worse then them?

So 73 wins is your best argument?... do I have that correct?... while the sidekick outplays their best player and closes? That's the best accomplishment?.. and we're supposed to celebrate 1/4 vs warriors???.. the 1 time he gets lucky?.. mostly losing and rare comebacks > dominant winning?.. losing > winning??... gtfo

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I think 2019 Kawhi playoffs was better for a variety of reasons

- Kawhi beat 2019 Bucks with a 8.04 SRS vs 1995 Spurs with a 5.90 SRS

- Kawhi had a much more efficient scoring NBA finals and beat Curry\Klay\Dray who were more successful then Shaq\Penny\Horace ever were

- Kawhi never had a teammate who averaged 20PPG in 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounds. Hakeem had Clyde average 21PPG in finals with a 126 offensive rating.

- Kawhi's 2nd round series blows away Hakeem's 2nd round series

Other playoff runs I would put above 1995 Hakeem:

1991-1993 Jordan, 2003 Duncan, 2000 or 2002 Shaq, 2013 Lebron. So from 1980-present I would rank Hakeem at about 9th best.

[3ball]

I think 2019 Kawhi playoffs was better for a variety of reasons

- Kawhi beat 2019 Bucks with a 8.04 SRS vs 1995 Spurs with a 5.90 SRS

- Kawhi had a much more efficient scoring NBA finals and beat Curry\Klay\Dray who were more successful then Shaq\Penny\Horace ever were

- Kawhi never had a teammate who averaged 20PPG in 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounds. Hakeem had Clyde average 21PPG in finals with a 126 offensive rating.

- Kawhi's 2nd round series blows away Hakeem's 2nd round series

Other playoff runs I would put above 1995 Hakeem:

1991-1993 Jordan, 2003 Duncan, 2000 or 2002 Shaq, 2013 Lebron. So from 1980-present I would rank Hakeem at about 9th best.

I think you have valid points except the Giannis was ripe for the picking as a flawed baby, while Robinson was an experienced vet at his peak.. so the Bucks' were inflated

And Curry/Klay/Dray are the least athletic core ever who lose to everyone, and almost lost to lebron in 2015 - Shaq/Penny/Grant were a much tougher challenge

Btw - in the 13' Finals, lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while teammates staved off a 0-3 deficit, and eventually needed Ray to force game 7 - anyone would've done better and not needed 7 games... he was a net negative for the series (heat lost with him on floor)
..

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I think you have valid points except the Giannis was ripe for the picking as a flawed baby, while Robinson was an experienced vet at his peak.. so the Bucks' were inflated

And Curry/Klay/Dray are the least athletic core ever who lose to everyone, and almost lost to lebron in 2015 - Shaq/Penny/Grant were a much tougher challenge

Finally, lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while teammates staved off a 0-3 deficit.. he was a net negative for the series (heat lost with him on floor)
..

Robinson was never known as a Batman, he needed Duncan to come around. So he's a sidekick pretty much. Giannis just won MVP and Robinson won MVP with neither having a proven playoff track record, sounds comparable to me. Giannis led his team to an over 8 SRS and that's a big factor as bucks were better then spurs.

Curry/Klay/Dray won 9 finals games. Shaq/Penny/Horace won 0 finals games. That's a massive gap in proven playoff success.

[3ball]

Robinson was never known as a Batman, he needed Duncan to come around. So he's a sidekick pretty much. Giannis just won MVP and Robinson won MVP with neither having a proven playoff track record, sounds comparable to me. Giannis led his team to an over 8 SRS and that's a big factor as bucks were better then spurs.

Curry/Klay/Dray won 9 finals games. Shaq/Penny/Horace won 0 finals games. That's a massive gap in proven playoff success.

Curry/Klay had the weakest Finals comp ever and their losing record against said comp means they can't touch Shaq/Penny, who beat MJ/Pippen and the Pacers

And Robinson had the biggest impact ever when he turned those Spurs around.. he was never a sidekick was considered better than hakeem before the 95' Playoffs... and if Duncan arrived pre-injury it would've been different

[999Guy]

I think 2019 Kawhi playoffs was better for a variety of reasons

- Kawhi beat 2019 Bucks with a 8.04 SRS vs 1995 Spurs with a 5.90 SRS

- Kawhi had a much more efficient scoring NBA finals and beat Curry\Klay\Dray who were more successful then Shaq\Penny\Horace ever were

- Kawhi never had a teammate who averaged 20PPG in 2nd, 3rd, 4th rounds. Hakeem had Clyde average 21PPG in finals with a 126 offensive rating.

- Kawhi's 2nd round series blows away Hakeem's 2nd round series

Other playoff runs I would put above 1995 Hakeem:

1991-1993 Jordan, 2003 Duncan, 2000 or 2002 Shaq, 2013 Lebron. So from 1980-present I would rank Hakeem at about 9th best.
You realize Kawhi has damn near no advantages over Hakeem at basketball on either end of the floor right?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Curry/Klay had the weakest Finals comp ever and their losing record against said comp means they can't touch Shaq/Penny, who beat MJ/Pippen and the Pacers

And Robinson had the biggest impact ever when he turned those Spurs around.. he was never a sidekick was considered better than hakeem before the 95' Playoffs... and if Duncan arrived pre-injury it would've been different

No excuse for a trio having 9x the amount of finals wins as you, that just shows you were not keeping up relative to your era. On top of that, curry/Klay/Dray have the 73 win record. Penny was always overrated and only had like 2 good years in his career. Draymond/Klay are both on pace for hall of fame careers and that's something Penny/Horace will never sniff. The suns took 95 rockets to 7, no excuse for Shaq/Penny/Horace getting swept if they are as great as you say.

As far as David Robinson, his efficiency always consistently declined in the playoffs. He was basically the 90s James Harden in terms of the playoff drop off. There's nothing that ever says Robinson was ever capable of being a reliable #1 scorer for a title run.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

You realize Kawhi has damn near no advantages over Hakeem at basketball on either end of the floor right?

Kawhi is clearly the better scorer and offensive player. Scoring efficiency is a big deal, especially when it comes to carry jobs.

[999Guy]

Kawhi is clearly the better scorer and offensive player. Scoring efficiency is a big deal, especially when it comes to carry jobs.

No, it really isn’t. Kawhi does not have near the gravity of Hakeem. His style of play is generally really suboptimal which is why Toronto has had offenses that beam without him in every instance. Great without him in 2018, add him, and it’s still just great, no amazing boost, great without him going 17-3 without him in the RS of 2019, back to great after losing him for nothing this year.

Hakeem plays a style of offense that is much harder to rack up efficiency with, but way harder to defend from a team concept.



Kawhi is a ball pounding pull up shooter with an average off-ball game and just a decent playmaker.

You’d think Kawhi was close to Shaq offensively just looking at PPG and TS%. He isn’t.

He’s simply good. His run was good. Maybe great. Not even close to all-time good.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

No, it really isn’t. Kawhi does not have near the gravity of Hakeem. His style of play is generally really suboptimal which is why Toronto has had offenses that beam without him in every instance. Great without him in 2018, add him, and it’s still just great, no amazing boost, great without him going 17-3 without him in the RS of 2019, back to great after losing him for nothing this year.

Hakeem plays a style of offense that is much harder to rack up efficiency with, but way harder to defend from a team concept.



Kawhi is a ball pounding pull up shooter with an average off-ball game and just a decent playmaker.

You’d think Kawhi was close to Shaq offensively just looking at PPG and TS%. He isn’t.

He’s simply good. His run was good. Maybe great. Not even close to all-time good.

Hakeem has only led a top 5 offense like one time in his entire career? Where is all this imaginary gravity you are dreaming about??

Raptors were never great without Kawhi in the playoffs, they didn't win a game out of the 1st round in 2018. Even Bulls in 1994 won 3 games in the 2nd round without Jordan but the raptors managed to win zero. Kawhi dramatically improved Raptors as a playoff team offensively and defensively, that's why they were able to eliminate three super teams in a row Simmons\Butler\Embiid, Brogdon\Middelton\Giannis, Curry\Klay\Dray.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id1_select=Kawhi+Leonard&player_id1=leonaka01&y1=2019&player_id2_hint=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id2_select=Hakeem+Olajuwon&player_id2=olajuha01&idx=bbr__players&y2=1995

Kawhi's stats blow away Hakeem's stats in BPM\VORP. Kawhi has more than double the OBPM that Hakeem has, that's a massive gap that can not be ignored. On top of that, Kawhi has a 119 offensive rating to Hakeem's 110.

Points per 100 possessions Kawhi embarrasses Hakeem with just 1.7 less points despite taking 6 less shots.

Freethrow rate Kawhi again destroys Hakeem at 43% to 28%

[Overdrive]

Did he beat a 73 win team doe

What was the Warriors win% during the playoffs? Asking for a friend.

[Overdrive]

- demolished MVP Robinson and Shaq/Penny

- won while prime MJ/Pippen were in same playoffs (yes we know it wasn't the real MJ but still)

- biggest burden/possession usage to ever win outside of Jordan (35.9% usage)

- only player to win with 25+ fga and 45% outside of MJ (the only high volume, high efficiency ring outside of mj)

Btw why do you call 1st options shooting alot a burden? Like that's a negative thing for them. Coaches have to ask them to shoot less, not more. They'd gladly take 50 shots per game if not kept in check.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I also forget to mention that Kawhi 2019 playoffs has a higher offensive rebounding % over 1995 Hakeem which is pretty jaw dropping since Kawhi is a wing player. I think that + scoring efficiency gives the clear edge to Kawhi overall.

[Manny98]

What was the Warriors win% during the playoffs? Asking for a friend.

Curry was literally injured the first two rounds so that is irrelevant

[Overdrive]

Curry was literally injured the first two rounds so that is irrelevant

I thought Curry is useless in the playoffs? So if he was injured why doesn't that have negative impact on the finals? Their win% also mainly dipped due to the 7 game WCF. Even if they swept the prior round losing 3 vs OKC would've lowered their win% to a 66W pace.

[Manny98]

Who said he was useless

He was literally on track to having the greatest season ever, 73 wins + unanimous MVP

Unfortunately he ran into the GOAT :(


https://youtu.be/rkm3LVYhInM

[999Guy]

Hakeem has only led a top 5 offense like one time in his entire career? Where is all this imaginary gravity you are dreaming about??

Raptors were never great without Kawhi in the playoffs, they didn't win a game out of the 1st round in 2018. Even Bulls in 1994 won 3 games in the 2nd round without Jordan but the raptors managed to win zero. Kawhi dramatically improved Raptors as a playoff team offensively and defensively, that's why they were able to eliminate three super teams in a row Simmons\Butler\Embiid, Brogdon\Middelton\Giannis, Curry\Klay\Dray.
First off, saying Hakeem didn’t have gravity is gonna make it very hard to take your opinions seriously from here on. All we are doing is giving opinions substantiated by certain metrics really. You saying that is like me saying Kawhi can’t shoot.

Hakeem was regularly double and triple teamed. Even doubled off the ball.

Hakeem did lead a top 5 offense in 86. 6th best in 93, 7th best in 95.

He led high level offenses when given the talent to. All those teams made strong, deep playoff runs as well.

I’ll tell you what he didn’t have though; teams that would easily be top 10 on offense and defense in his entire career. Toronto not being an exception. Again, Kawhi won with a team that is conference finals contender without him. His playoff run does not deserve to be listed among legitimate carry jobs, ever.

Also, calling Philly a super team is just a joke. An SRS of 2. They had a strong starting 5. Not even 14/15 Clippers level, just strong. With a a TERRIBLE bench(which I’ll go over in a sec). That’s it. They were a dark horse team.

They gave Toronto so much trouble because Kawhi led offenses are stylistically easy to guard compared to a constant double team machine, that hits ridiculous tough shots and throw defensive rotations out of whack like Hakeem.

Joel Embiid controlled the 2019 ECSF series big time.

Kawhi per 36 when Embiid was on the court: 28/8/3.5 on 57.4
TS% with 3.6 TOV and .9 STL, .2 BLKS. Toronto losing by 11.6 per 36(!!!!!this is most of his court time!!!!!!!)

Kawhi when Embiid was off the court: 39/11/4 on 78 TS% and 1.4 TOV, 1.8 STL, 1.2 BLKS. Toronto was winning by 44 per 36.


https://stats.nba.com/vs/#!?PlayerID=202695&VsPlayerID=203954&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Per36

Summing it up, TOR when Kawhi and Embiid played: 97.0 ORTG, 112.7 DRTG | -15.6 net rating for 28 minutes

TOR when Kawhi played without Embiid: 128.0 ORTG, 69.6 DRTG | +58.5 net rating in 11.4 minutes.

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=202695&VsPlayerID=203954&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs

They stole the series because Embiid was injured and out of shape.

Even in the last play of the series, it’s definitive for what happened, Kawhi getting harassed by Embiid into a low % shot, only to get a lucky bounce and barely win. Perfect last play to define things.

And that, is why he is better than Hakeem? Getting dominated for 3 quarters against quality comp but being able to spit roast a horrible top heavy teams bench for a quarter a game, and still luckily win over a 2 SRS team with HCA?

Nah. Keep the rings and glory, but no way in hell is his run what it’s been hyped up to be.

[Overdrive]

Who said he was useless

He was literally on track to having the greatest season ever, 73 wins + unanimous MVP

Unfortunately he ran into the GOAT :(


https://youtu.be/rkm3LVYhInM

Why don't you answer the questions?

Didn't know Jordan played in 16.

[Akeem34TheDream]

'94 and '95 are co-GOAT rings. Hard to choose which one is the best. One of them is GOAT carry job and the other one is beating basically half of the league in the playoffs.

[tpols]

it's actually one of the more overrated runs because people act like he had no help.

Hakeem had Clyde whose a great second option, going off in the playoffs. 21/7/5, 120 ORTG that playoff run across 4 series. That's elite as hell.

In fact... everyone of Hakeem's starting teammates had ORTGs above 120. His teammates all went nuts.

i saw the documentary on this team, drexler had one of the best runs of his career.

[ImKobe]

'94 and '95 are co-GOAT rings. Hard to choose which one is the best. One of them is GOAT carry job and the other one is beating basically half of the league in the playoffs.

'94 is more impressive since he did it without a co-star. Drexler had to play out his mind against Utah in the 2 elimination games for them not to lose in the first round in '95.


it's actually one of the more overrated runs because people act like he had no help.

Hakeem had Clyde whose a great second option, going off in the playoffs. 21/7/5, 120 ORTG that playoff run across 4 series. That's elite as hell.

In fact... everyone of Hakeem's starting teammates had ORTGs above 120. His teammates all went nuts.

i saw the documentary on this team, drexler had one of the best runs of his career.


Drexler was great. Rockets were down 1 - 2 with no HCA in the first round (Bo5). Clyde goes for 41/9/6 with a ~85%TS in Game 4 & 31/10/3 with a 73%TS in Game 5.

[Manny98]

Why don't you answer the questions?

Didn't know Jordan played in 16.
The answer doesn't matter because the Warriors were missing their star for half of the playoffs

LeBron beating the greatest team of all time cemented him as the GOAT, he has nothing left to prove :applause:

[AirBonner]

So which one of MJ’s rings did Hakeem top?

[FKAri]

So which one of MJ’s rings did Hakeem top?


:oldlol:

Gottem

[Overdrive]

The answer doesn't matter because the Warriors were missing their star for half of the playoffs

LeBron beating the greatest team of all time cemented him as the GOAT, he has nothing left to prove :applause:

Again if the Warriors with a hypothetical healthy Curry swept the playoffs until the WCF where he was healthy, played and they lost 3 they would have been at a 66 win pace. The Warriors showed that the weren't allmighty before the played the first game against the Cavs - even with their strongest line up possible.

The RS doesn't matter if you struggle against 2 of the 4 strongest teams.

Also why didn't Curry's injury have a negative impact on the finals?

[light]

- demolished MVP Robinson and Shaq/Penny

- won while prime MJ/Pippen were in same playoffs (yes we know it wasn't the real MJ but still)

- biggest burden/possession usage to ever win outside of Jordan (35.9% usage)

- only player to win with 25+ fga and 45% outside of MJ (the only high volume, high efficiency ring outside of mj)

There aren't any rings from the 90's that can qualify. Weak league.

Penny is a nobody historically so who cares about Penny?

Robinson's sidekick was Sean Elliot. :lol

It was Hakeem and Drexler versus Robinson and Sean Elliot and you're arguing that Hakeem did something special?

[HBK_Kliq_2]

1) Hakeem was only able to lead a top 5 offense once in his entire career. Kawhi is only 28 years old and already led a top 5 offense in Clippers 2019-20 season and also top 7 offense in 2017. If Hakeem had this amazing gravity that you say, he would of led more top 5 offensive teams.

2) Toronto didn't make the conference finals in 2018, they were swept in 2nd round. So you're just making up stuff there. Again, that's 3 less wins then 1994 Bulls.

3) You can't judge 76ers team by there SRS because Embiid\Butler ended up only playing less then 20 games together.

4) 76ers\raptors series, Embiid is arguably the best defensive big man in the league and he dominated in the playoffs but he still couldn't keep Kawhi from single handily winning the series. Kawhi averaged 41PPG in 3\4 wins, Kawhi made 2 game winners in Embiid's face: one in game 7 and also one in game 4 with 1 minute left to seal the game. Kawhi averaged 33PPG 53% FG for the series while having 7 teammates who shot worse then 45% FG. It's callled a carry job and it was the biggest carry job in NBA history against a super team like 76ers