KJ made 89' and 90' WCF with 22/7/11 vs GSW and #1 Lakers. Pip 9/5 and 16/5 vs Piston

[3ball]

It's clear that MJ three-peats from 89-91' with KJ the "Magic killer" instead of Pippen (the Pistons' whipping boy).

Pippen simply won the "play with MJ and 3-peat" lottery

I'm guessing that MJ retires briefly after the 91' three-peat and returns the 4-peat with Kemp ask

[AlternativeAcc.]

It's clear that MJ was winless without Pippen

Pippen is the GOAT sidekick and top 20 all-time

reality sucks so you have to make up hypotheticals. You have quite the imagination.. tell us more fascinating stories of you dunking on NBA all-stars

[3ball]

It's clear that MJ was winless without Pippen

Pippen is the GOAT sidekick and top 20 all-time

reality sucks so you have to make up hypotheticals. You have quite the imagination.. tell us more fascinating stories of you dunking on NBA all-stars

Why was KJ dominating and making the WCF in his first 2 playoffs while Pippen was averaging single-digits in his first 2?

Keep in mind that worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals (his first playoffs) - this would've won MJ the chip from 88-90'... Pippen simply won the "play with MJ and 3-peat" lottery

X-man averaged 25/9/4 against the Lakers in 87' WCF and was a 20 ppg scorer a d superior rebounder/defender - he also wins in 89' and 90'

Obviously, guys like Dominique or Derrick Coleman win every year with MJ (nique took bird 7 with Willis)

[LeCroix]

It's clear that MJ was winless without Pippen

Pippen is the GOAT sidekick and top 20 all-time

reality sucks so you have to make up hypotheticals. You have quite the imagination.. tell us more fascinating stories of you dunking on NBA all-stars

[3ball]

It's clear that MJ was winless without Pippen

Pippen is the GOAT sidekick and top 20 all-time

reality sucks so you have to make up hypotheticals. You have quite the imagination.. tell us more fascinating stories of you dunking on NBA all-stars

Why did Pippen cost MJ rings from 88-90, 95' and almost 98'?

He's a scummy, low-producing teammate and literally the most non-existent player in the clutch ever - lowest clutch-time points in 97/98 Playoffs and Finals.. gets bullied and needs mj to save him... Can't even relieve MJ of passing - mj had to get equal assists ) actually lead in apg for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pip)

[AlternativeAcc.]

Why was KJ dominating and making the WCF in his first 2 playoffs while Pippen was averaging single-digits in his first 2?

Keep in mind that worthy averaged 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals (his first playoffs) - this would've won MJ the chip from 88-90'... Pippen simply won the "play with MJ and 3-peat" lottery

X-man averaged 25/9/4 against the Lakers in 87' WCF and was a 20 ppg scorer a d superior rebounder/defender - he also wins in 89' and 90'

Obviously, guys like Dominique or Derrick Coleman win every year with MJ (nique took bird 7 with Willis)

IDK, it might have something to do with them taking twice the amount of shots

They didn't play with a black hole chucker by the name of Michael, who was winless until Pippen took his next step as a player becoming the Bulls best playmaker and defender

Scottie went on to make 3 All NBA 1st teams and 8 All NBA defensive 1st teams

KJ? Zero and zero

[3ball]

IDK, it might have something to do with them taking twice the amount of shots

They didn't play with a black hole chucker by the name of Michael, who was winless until Pippen took his next step as a player becoming the Bulls best playmaker and defender

Scottie went on to make 3 All NBA 1st teams and 8 All NBA defensive 1st teams

KJ? Zero and zero

The point is that Jordan 3-peats with anyone else instead of Pippen from 88-90'

many guys like KJ, Worthy, Coleman, Dominique and many more were dominating the very opponents that Pippen's horrific play caused losses against - i.e. Worthy was fmvp vs Pistons in 88', so it's too bad mj didn't have him instead of Pippen

[AlternativeAcc.]

The point is that Jordan 3-peats with anyone else instead of Pippen from 88-90'

many guys like KJ, Worthy, Coleman, Dominique and many more were dominating the very opponents that Pippen's horrific play caused losses against - i.e. Worthy was fmvp vs Pistons in 88', so it's too bad mj didn't have him instead of Pippen
Imagine complaining about Pippen (GOAT defender, perrenial all-star) when LeBron's best 2nd option in Cle was Mo Williams (1x pity allstar, horrible defender, and less career ppg than Pippen)

Yikes


Give LeBron Arenas, Billups, or Pierce and what happens

[3ball]

Imagine complaining about Pippen (GOAT defender, perrenial all-star) when LeBron's best 2nd option in Cle was Mo Williams (1x pity allstar, horrible defender, and less career ppg than Pippen)

Yikes


Give LeBron Arenas, Billups, or Pierce and what happens
If Dwight can make the Finals with Rashard... and AI with McKie... or Kidd with Jefferson... then Lebron should've made it with Mo.. a good sidekick wasn't required in the 00's East many years

Otoh, you needed a juggernaut and great sidekick to win the 80's East - weak teams like the 09' Magic, 07' Cavs or 01' Sixers could never win.. so lebron formed a strong cast in a conference that weak teams were routinely winning, hence the "manufactured" conference finals win streak/resume... the definition of a fraud (skips the development process and hops onto the league favorite)

[LeCroix]

Imagine complaining about Pippen (GOAT defender, perrenial all-star) when LeBron's best 2nd option in Cle was Mo Williams (1x pity allstar, horrible defender, and less career ppg than Pippen)

Yikes


Give LeBron Arenas, Billups, or Pierce and what happens

Dont forget Pippens 10x all defensive team selections

[ImKobe]

Imagine complaining about Pippen (GOAT defender, perrenial all-star) when LeBron's best 2nd option in Cle was Mo Williams (1x pity allstar, horrible defender, and less career ppg than Pippen)

Yikes


Give LeBron Arenas, Billups, or Pierce and what happens

What did 21 y.o Kobe do to the GOAT defender in a Game 7?

[Roundball_Rock]

He is the second MJ stan today to count a game Pippen played 1 minute in against him. :oldlol:

[Smoke117]

What did 21 y.o Kobe do to the GOAT defender in a Game 7?

Lmfao...really? You gonna gloat about a young Kobe coming into his prime getting the best over a past his prime and battered 34 yr old Pippen? Pathetic.

[Roundball_Rock]

Lmfao...really? You gonna gloat about a young Kobe coming into his prime getting the best over a past his prime and battered 34 yr old Pippen? Pathetic.

It is ironic since what did Kobe do at age 34 in the playoffs or thereafter? Kobe as Kobe ended on April 12 of his age 34 season. After that he was 19/4/4 on 36.6% from the field the rest of his career. So decent scoring but he was still taking first option volume when he probably was the least efficient shooter in the league.

[86Celtics]

Why did Pippen cost MJ rings from 88-90, 95' and almost 98'?

He's a scummy, low-producing teammate and literally the most non-existent player in the clutch ever - lowest clutch-time points in 97/98 Playoffs and Finals.. gets bullied and needs mj to save him... Can't even relieve MJ of passing - mj had to get equal assists ) actually lead in apg for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pip)

I shouldn't bother because it's like talking to a wall but this is paranoic stuff. For your sake I hope you're trolling because if you actually believe this, you need help.

[Smoke117]

Why did Pippen cost MJ rings from 88-90, 95' and almost 98'?

He's a scummy, low-producing teammate and literally the most non-existent player in the clutch ever - lowest clutch-time points in 97/98 Playoffs and Finals.. gets bullied and needs mj to save him... Can't even relieve MJ of passing - mj had to get equal assists ) actually lead in apg for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pip)

How could Pippen cost Jordan rings when he was just a scrub who didn't matter. You have gone out of your way to tell us how much he "sucked", so how did he cost Jordan any rings? Wasn't it part of Jordan's all time greatness and glory that he carried all these scrubs to championship after championship? To carry all 11 players on the team? Right? As far as you're concerned he did that, right? So why are you attacking Pippen for his low numbers in the late 80s? He sucks and didn't do anything anyway ever, right?

[Roundball_Rock]

How could Pippen cost Jordan rings when he was just a scrub who didn't matter. You have gone out of your way to tell us how much he "sucked", so how did he cost Jordan any rings? Wasn't it part of Jordan's all time greatness and glory that he carried all these scrubs to championship after championship? To carry all 11 players on the team? Right? As far as you're concerned he did that, right? So why are you attacking Pippen for his low numbers in the late 80s? He sucks and didn't do anything anyway ever, right?

Exactly! :roll:

So on the one hand: Pippen sucked, Jordan would "find a way to win", Jordan had no help but won because "GOAT gonna GOAT", when the Bulls won it was all MJ, etc.

On the other hand: it is Pippen's fault whenever the Bulls lost.

They are too enmeshed in their Space Jam bubble to realize they implicitly are saying "No Pip, No Chip."

[tpols]

damn... kevin johnson was really ****ing good.

is he the best little man posterizer of all time?

[Roundball_Rock]

Kevin Johnson was the second option on those teams. He wasn't carrying them as 3ball is suggesting.

1989 Suns: Chambers 26/8/3, K. Johnson 20/4/12, E. Johnson 22/4/3, Gilliam 16/7/1
1990 Suns: Chambers 27/7/2, K. Johnson 23/4/11, Hornacek 18/5/5, E. Johnson 17/4/2

[BigShotBob]

Kevin Johnson was the second option on those teams. He wasn't carrying them as 3ball is suggesting.

1989 Suns: Chambers 26/8/3, K. Johnson 20/4/12, E. Johnson 22/4/3, Gilliam 16/7/1
1990 Suns: Chambers 27/7/2, K. Johnson 23/4/11, Hornacek 18/5/5, E. Johnson 17/4/2

KJ was definitely the man. He set the pace and was running and gunning, being the only other player besides Magic iirc to have multiple 20+ 10+ assist seasons back to back to back or some shit.

Make no mistake KJ made the Suns.

[Roundball_Rock]

Assists were inflated in KJ's prime. "20/10" then isn't what it would be today.

1990 APG leaders: 1) Stockton 15.0 2) Magic 12.8 3) Strickland 11.2 4) K. Johnson 10.6 5) Floyd 10.3 10) Drexler 8.1

2019 APG leaders: 1) Westbrook 10.6 2) Rubio 8.6 3) Green 8.5 4) Jokic 8.4 5) L. Williams 7.7 10) Lowry/Lillard 6.6

10 assists back then was like 8 assists today.

[BigShotBob]

Assists were inflated in KJ's prime. "20/10" then isn't what it would be today.

1990 APG leaders: 1) Stockton 15.0 2) Magic 12.8 3) Strickland 11.2 4) K. Johnson 10.6 5) Floyd 10.3 10) Drexler 8.1

2019 APG leaders: 1) Westbrook 10.6 2) Rubio 8.6 3) Green 8.5 4) Jokic 8.4 5) L. Williams 7.7 10) Lowry/Lillard 6.6

10 assists back then was like 8 assists today.

No there were just better playmakers back then than there are now mainly because most offensive systems weren't hampered by three point shot jacking.

The reason why Lou Williams off of the bench averaged almost 8 assist a game was because he ran pick and roll with Montrez Harrel so much that it was one of the most ran plays in the league (top 2 behind Harden iso iirc).

[tpols]

Assists were inflated in KJ's prime. "20/10" then isn't what it would be today.

1990 APG leaders: 1) Stockton 15.0 2) Magic 12.8 3) Strickland 11.2 4) K. Johnson 10.6 5) Floyd 10.3 10) Drexler 8.1

2019 APG leaders: 1) Westbrook 10.6 2) Rubio 8.6 3) Green 8.5 4) Jokic 8.4 5) L. Williams 7.7 10) Lowry/Lillard 6.6

10 assists back then was like 8 assists today.

:biggums:

if anything todays game would be perfect for a slasher like KJ with the wide open lanes and pathetic crop of comparable big men defending the rim.

magic and stockton are the only outliers on your list and they're... magic ****ing johnson and john stockton lol

@ comparing westbrook and rubio to them in the top slots :roll:

[3ball]

Exactly! :roll:

So on the one hand: Pippen sucked, Jordan would "find a way to win", Jordan had no help but won because "GOAT gonna GOAT", when the Bulls won it was all MJ, etc.

On the other hand: it is Pippen's fault whenever the Bulls lost.

They are too enmeshed in their Space Jam bubble to realize they implicitly are saying "No Pip, No Chip."


To beat a good team (championship-caliber), everyone needs good production from a star - the worst sidekick stats that lebron needed to win a Finals was prime pippen stats, aka 20/5/5 from Wade in 13' Finals..

Otherwise, the best team he beat with weak production from the 2nd option is the 49-win Pacers in the 13' ECF (#9 SRS, #20 offense)...

Otoh, MJ beat the following 60-win teams with top SRS:



1996 FINAL vs SEA... 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 ECF vs. MIA..... 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECF vs IND....... 16.6 on 39.2%

1989 RD 1 vs CLE.... 15.0 on 39.8%


And we already know that Pippen was outplayed by a ton of 2nd options like Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Penny, Kemp, Dumars, Harper, X-man, Willing and more so MJ was carrying the Bulls every year

[warriorfan]

Assists were inflated in KJ's prime. "20/10" then isn't what it would be today.

1990 APG leaders: 1) Stockton 15.0 2) Magic 12.8 3) Strickland 11.2 4) K. Johnson 10.6 5) Floyd 10.3 10) Drexler 8.1

2019 APG leaders: 1) Westbrook 10.6 2) Rubio 8.6 3) Green 8.5 4) Jokic 8.4 5) L. Williams 7.7 10) Lowry/Lillard 6.6

10 assists back then was like 8 assists today.

Mods.

[BigShotBob]

I forgot how good Xavier McDaniel was. Might go watch some footage of him again

[Roundball_Rock]

magic and stockton are the only outliers on your list and they're... magic ****ing johnson and john stockton lol

@ comparing westbrook and rubio to them in the top slots :roll:

Simple math. Let's make it easier to understand:

1990 APG leaders: 3) Strickland 11.2 5) Floyd 10.3 10) Drexler 8.1

2019 APG leaders: 3) Green 8.5 5) L. Williams 7.7 10) Lowry/Lillard 6.6

Notice a difference? If you can't then I can't help you but there is an obvious difference...

[Smoke117]

To beat a good team (championship-caliber), everyone needs good production from a star - the worst sidekick stats that lebron needed to win a Finals was prime pippen stats, aka 20/5/5 from Wade in 13' Finals..

Otherwise, the best team he beat with weak production from the 2nd option is the 49-win Pacers in the 13' ECF (#9 SRS, #20 offense)...

Otoh, MJ beat the following 60-win teams with top SRS:



1996 FINAL vs SEA... 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 ECF vs. MIA..... 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECF vs IND....... 16.6 on 39.2%

1989 RD 1 vs CLE.... 15.0 on 39.8%


And we already know that Pippen was outplayed by a ton of 2nd options like Larry Johnson, Juwan Howard, Penny, Kemp, Dumars, Harper, X-man, Willing and more so MJ was carrying the Bulls every year

Why do you blatantly lie, ya nut? The 89 Cavs won 57 games. They weren’t a 60 win team. 98 pacers won 58. When talking about wins you don’t just round up you clown. :oldlol:

[Hey Yo]

Why did Pippen cost MJ rings from 88-90, 95' and almost 98'?

He's a scummy, low-producing teammate and literally the most non-existent player in the clutch ever - lowest clutch-time points in 97/98 Playoffs and Finals.. gets bullied and needs mj to save him... Can't even relieve MJ of passing - mj had to get equal assists ) actually lead in apg for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pip)
LOL @ blaming Pippen for MJ only taking 8fga in the biggest postseason game of his career.

Bulls down by 1 going into the 4th. MJ still refuses to shoot.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why do you blatantly lie, ya nut? The 89 Cavs won 57 games. They weren’t a 60 win team. 98 pacers won 58.

They always lie on the hope that there aren't enough of us to call them out every time, sadly.

It is funny he is invoking SRS.

SRS Team Ranks in Finals/Conference Finals Runs

Jordan: 10th, 9th, 1st, 1st, 4th, 1st, 1st, 1st
LeBron: 7th, 1st, 1st, 4th, 2nd, 7th, 6th, 4th, 7th, 14th
Kareem: 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th, 2nd (KAJ through 1985)

MJ the underdog! :lol LeBron is the one with super teams! :mad:

[3ball]

I shouldn't bother because it's like talking to a wall but this is paranoic stuff. For your sake I hope you're trolling because if you actually believe this, you need help.

Pippen 88' Playoffs... 10 on 46%
Pippen 89' Playoffs... 13 on 46% (9 on 40% in ECF, missed game 6)
Pippen 90' Playoffs... 19 on 49% (16 on 41% in ECF, missed Game 7)


^^^ so Pippen cost the Bulls rings from 88-90 - it's ludicrous NOT to think so.. Anyone else would've beaten the Pistons with MJ, like Piston-killer Worthy (fmvp in 88'), Magic-killer KJ, or a guy like 80's Ewing would win with MJ every year.. Pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:biggums:

if anything todays game would be perfect for a slasher like KJ with the wide open lanes and pathetic crop of comparable big men defending the rim.

magic and stockton are the only outliers on your list and they're... magic ****ing johnson and john stockton lol

@ comparing westbrook and rubio to them in the top slots :roll:

Westbrook with consecutive triple-double seasons and freedom of movement implemented... But ya, today's numbers are not inflated :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

It was all Mike--with scrub help! :bowdown:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=1150

[3ball]

It was all Mike--with scrub help! :bowdown:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=1150

MJ won with 2 casts at the bottom of the list - 91' an 93' - so he won twice with the weaker casts ever to win

Also, that list isn't a measure of on-paper talent - that list just shows how well the cast played.. its actually a measure of cast elevation

[tpols]

Simple math. Let's make it easier to understand:

1990 APG leaders: 3) Strickland 11.2 5) Floyd 10.3 10) Drexler 8.1

2019 APG leaders: 3) Green 8.5 5) L. Williams 7.7 10) Lowry/Lillard 6.6

Notice a difference? If you can't then I can't help you but there is an obvious difference...

you just presented one of the worst arguments ive seen on this site.

the 80s/90s assist leaders are infinitely more talented passers and players than the 20s guys you listed.

[Roundball_Rock]

Putting aside I wasn't aware Sleepy Floyd evidently was Steve Nash, that is naive. Assists skyrocketed during a brief period that coincided with KJ's prime. There were plenty of talented passers in the 60's, 70's, early 80's, late 90's, 00's, and 10's.

HOF Passers Outside of 1985-1995

Nash's peak: 11.6 APG
LeBron's peak: 10.6 APG
Paul's peak: 11.6 APG
Kidd's peak: 10.8 APG
Oscar's peak: 11.5 APG
Cousy's peak: 9.5 APG

Random Passers 1985-1995

Floyd's peak: 10.3 APG
Adam's peak: 10.5 APG
Porter's peak: 10.1 APG
River's peak: 10.0 APG
Theus' peak: 9.6 APG
Skiles' peak: 9.4 APG
Blaylock's peak: 9.7 APG
Grant's peak: 10.0 APG
McMillian's peak: 9.3 APG

I didn't even include Magic, Isiah, Stockton, KJ, etc. So you have 12-14 guys averaging 10+ in that short period--which we did not see before or after in the other 6 1/2 decades of basketball. Either a coincidence or a product of assist inflation. It is obvious which one is the driver here.

[Smoke117]

Pippen 88' Playoffs... 10 on 46%
Pippen 89' Playoffs... 13 on 46% (9 on 40% in ECF, missed game 6)
Pippen 90' Playoffs... 19 on 49% (16 on 41% in ECF, missed Game 7)


^^^ so Pippen cost the Bulls rings from 88-90 - it's ludicrous NOT to think so.. Anyone else would've beaten the Pistons with MJ, like Piston-killer Worthy (fmvp in 88'), Magic-killer KJ, or a guy like 80's Ewing would win with MJ every year.. Pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

So now you’re blaming a rookie Pippen for the bulls lack of a championship in 88? This clown has finally completely lost it. :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

Welcome to Insidehoops. Don’t be afraid to click a few ads while you are enjoying the fresh new content. Thank you.

[Roundball_Rock]

So now you’re blaming a rookie Pippen for the bulls lack of a championship in 88? This clown has finally completely lost it. :oldlol:

:lol

It also is comical to think MJ would have won more with Worthy than with Pippen. Worthy was a great player but we saw the Lakers with Worthy as the #1: they went from 58 wins and the finals to 43 wins and losing in the first round.

Kevin Johnson choked in his one finals appearance and got outplayed by Pippen. It is another laugher that MJ would win with rookie KJ. Rookie KJ was 9/2/6 on the bench.

Ewing? The same Ewing who Pippen often outplayed or matched in playoff series? The Ewing who shot 36% in his one finals' appearance?

These guys want to gas every random 90's star when they have more warts than Pippen. They just don't have the largest fan base going after them 24/7 like Pippen does.

[tpols]

So now you’re blaming a rookie Pippen for the bulls lack of a championship in 88? This clown has finally completely lost it. :oldlol:

put rookie duncan on the bulls and they probably win.

[Whoah10115]

put rookie duncan on the bulls and they probably win.

Yes, looking for exceptions, well done.

Maybe rookie David Robinson too?

[Smoke117]

Yes, looking for exceptions, well done.

Maybe rookie David Robinson too?

Big Dave is the best rookie of the last 30 years.

[tpols]

Yes, looking for exceptions, well done.

Maybe rookie David Robinson too?

there are a shit load of rookies throughout history to put up better numbers and impact than pippen.

wade melo bron from the '03 class alone were putting up twice the production.

[Whoah10115]

there are a shit load of rookies throughout history to put up better numbers and impact than pippen.

wade melo bron from the '03 class alone were putting up twice the production.

Sure...but it's pretty well known that Pippen was not good as a rookie.

Plus, the point is that blaming a rookie who didn't produce makes no sense. No one is arguing whether or not Pippen was great then.

Them 3peating with KJ is also a stretch. And KJ wasn't even great as a rookie. Wasn't he traded?

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

there are a shit load of rookies throughout history to put up better numbers and impact than pippen.

wade melo bron from the '03 class alone were putting up twice the production.

2nd year Pippen was bad too (89'), while 2nd year Worthy was at 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals - that easily beats the Pistons instead of Pippen's 9 on 40%, or 16 on 41% in 89/90 ECF... 2nd year X-man was also dominant in the Playoffs and would've won with 89' mj too..

Tons of guys win with mj from 88-90'... Pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ lottery" but was too shitty himself to cash it in initially.. he had to wait until year 4... :facepalm:..

[tpols]

2nd year Pippen was bad too (89'), while 2nd year Worthy was at 22 on 64% in the 84' Finals - that easily beats the Pistons instead of Pippen's 9 on 40%, or 16 on 41% in 89/90 ECF... 2nd year X-man was also dominant in the Playoffs and would've won with 89' mj too..

Tons of guys win with mj from 88-90'... Pippen simply won the "3-peat with MJ lottery" but was too shitty himself to cash it in initially.. he had to wait until year 4... :facepalm:..

i think pippen was good long term for MJ, but in the short term yes there are a ton of couple time all star players that couldve gotten the job done.

prime x-man, iggy, marion, spree types couldve all gotten him "over the hump" early on considering how close he was to winning with no help.

which dispels the myth that MJ needed pippen to win. Any of those guys ^^^ win with MJ too, but probably not 6/6.

And there honestly not that rare at all. Imagine if MJ teamed up with Barkley like Bran did with Wade?

[Roundball_Rock]

It is a myth that every legend except Pippen was a beast as a rookie. KJ isn't a legend but I listed his rookie "production" earlier. Here are some HOF or future HOF players:

Drexler 8/3/2
Stockton 6/1/5
Miller 10/2/2
McHale 10/4/1
Pippen 8/4/2
Nash 3/1/2
Dirk 8/3/1
Billups 11/2/4
Harden 10/3/2
Kawhi 8/5/1
Butler 3/1/0
Worthy 13/5/2
Payton 7/3/6
Parish 9/7/1
Barkley 14/9/2
D. Johnson 9/4/2

First All-Star Selection (Draft Pick in Parentheses)

Pippen (5): 3rd season
Drexler (14): 3rd season
Stockton (16): 5th season
Miller (11): 3rd season
McHale (3): 4th season
Nash (15): 6th season
Nowitzki (9): 4th season
Billups (3): 9th season
Harden (3): 4th season
Leonard (15): 5th season
Butler (30): 4th season
Worthy (1): 4th season
Payton (2): 4th season
D. Johnson (29): 3rd season
Parish (8): 5th season
Barkley (5): 3rd season

bUT MjAy MaDE pIPun!


x-man, iggy, marion, spree types

Yes, considering how much of a help X was to Ewing, right? You are listing a bunch of players who won nothing, except Iggy, who won was the 4th and 5th option.

[3ball]

It is a myth that every legend was a beast as a rookie. KJ isn't a legend but I listed his rookie production earlier. Here are some others.

Drexler 8/3/2
Stockton 6/1/5
Miller 10/2/2
McHale 10/4/1
Pippen 8/4/2
Nash 3/1/2
Dirk 8/3/1
Billups 11/2/4
Harden 10/3/2
Kawhi 8/5/1
Butler 3/1/0
Worthy 13/5/2
Payton 7/3/6
Parish 9/7/1
Barkley 14/9/2

First All-Star Selection (Draft Pick in Parentheses)

Pippen (5): 3rd season
Drexler (14): 3rd season
Stockton (16): 5th season
Miller (11): 3rd season
McHale (3): 4th season
Nash (15): 6th season
Nowitzki (9): 4th season
Billups (3): 9th season
Harden (3): 4th season
Leonard (15): 5th season
Butler (30): 4th season
Worthy (1): 4th season
Payton (2): 4th season
D. Johnson (29): 3rd season
Parish (8): 5th season
Barkley (5): 3rd season

bUT MjAy MaDE pIPun!



Yes, considering how much of a help X was to Ewing, right? You are listing a bunch of players who won nothing, except Iggy, who won was the 4th and 5th option.

Why does MJ need a rookie?

Why can't he be gifted Kobe and a top 3 PF like 11' Lebron... Edit: lebron was gifted a player better than 10' Kobe - Wade.... And proceeded to mostly lose with him

[Roundball_Rock]

Another myth is that MJ got "no help" before Pippen. He had help.

1985 season: Woolridge 23/6/2, Daintley 16/3/2
1985 playoffs: Woolridge 21/3/2, Daintley 15/3/3.
1986 season*: Woolridge 21/5/3, Daintley 16/2/2, Gervin 16/3/2, Green 14/8/2
1986 playoffs: Woolridge 21/5/1, Oakley 10/10
1987 season: Oakley 15/13/4
1987 playoffs: Oakley 20/15/2

Woolridge basically was doing what "X Man" did and what happened?

*MJ played only 18 games and on a minutes restriction for most.

[Roundball_Rock]

Poor Mike. If only he had some help!

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=1150

[97 bulls]

It is a myth that every legend except Pippen was a beast as a rookie. KJ isn't a legend but I listed his rookie "production" earlier. Here are some HOF or future HOF players:

Drexler 8/3/2
Stockton 6/1/5
Miller 10/2/2
McHale 10/4/1
Pippen 8/4/2
Nash 3/1/2
Dirk 8/3/1
Billups 11/2/4
Harden 10/3/2
Kawhi 8/5/1
Butler 3/1/0
Worthy 13/5/2
Payton 7/3/6
Parish 9/7/1
Barkley 14/9/2
D. Johnson 9/4/2

First All-Star Selection (Draft Pick in Parentheses)

Pippen (5): 3rd season
Drexler (14): 3rd season
Stockton (16): 5th season
Miller (11): 3rd season
McHale (3): 4th season
Nash (15): 6th season
Nowitzki (9): 4th season
Billups (3): 9th season
Harden (3): 4th season
Leonard (15): 5th season
Butler (30): 4th season
Worthy (1): 4th season
Payton (2): 4th season
D. Johnson (29): 3rd season
Parish (8): 5th season
Barkley (5): 3rd season

bUT MjAy MaDE pIPun!



Yes, considering how much of a help X was to Ewing, right? You are listing a bunch of players who won nothing, except Iggy, who won was the 4th and 5th option.

People forget that Brad Sellers was a high draft pick and was drafted the year before Pippen. The organization wanted to give Sellers ever opportunity to pan out. Which is why Pippen didnt have the immediate impact like other greats.

[3ball]

Poor Mike. If only he had some help!

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=1150

^^^ Jordan's 91' and 93' casts are among the weakest to ever win

[3ball]

i think pippen was good long term for MJ, but in the short term yes there are a ton of couple time all star players that couldve gotten the job done.

prime x-man, iggy, marion, spree types couldve all gotten him "over the hump" early on considering how close he was to winning with no help.

which dispels the myth that MJ needed pippen to win. Any of those guys ^^^ win with MJ too, but probably not 6/6.

And there honestly not that rare at all. Imagine if MJ teamed up with Barkley like Bran did with Wade?
Worthy averaged 30 on 64% in the 87' WCF... and won the 88' MVP... and led the Lakers in playoff scoring from 85-88'... And averaged 22 on 64% in the Finals of his first playoffs in 84'.

^^^ that's all better than anything Pippen ever did... 84-90' Worthy is better than Pippen ever was but got less accolades because he was hidden on a deeper team and the talent was less diluted (pre-expansion)

There's no reason to believe that 2nd year Worthy, Ewing, and Dominique wouldn't 3-peat with MJ from 89-91' in place of 2nd year Pippen - they were better players at year 2-4 than 89-91' Pippen, and MJ was already close to winning those years (or winning, as in 91')

With rings from 89-91', these guys would be better than Pippen in HS, college, draft and now a 3 ring headstart as a pro - Pippen would never overcome that to still be ranked higher all-time - he simply won the "3-peat with MJ" lottery

Ultimately, Oakley was tossing the scrawny Pippen around as rookie - so Pippen was a young, impressionable rookie - he could've been steered a different direction if he was 2nd option to say, Derrick Coleman or fat Barkley, so he's lucky that he landed with MJ.. it's remarkable how lucky he was to land with mj..

[Roundball_Rock]

People forget that Brad Sellers was a high draft pick and was drafted the year before Pippen. The organization wanted to give Sellers ever opportunity to pan out. Which is why Pippen didnt have the immediate impact like other greats.

:applause:

There is so much BS they throw out there. Also look at my list. A lot of these players are from Pippen's era. Not every top pick immediately got a featured role like they do today.

What is their explanation for Pippen being the 5th pick, higher than many of the legends I listed? He was a scrub, right?

Even the hype about all these other players. They wouldn't be posting the same numbers with MJ taking 30 shots. That is common sense. When "X Man" went to a contender in New York he was a 14/6/2 player. These guys talk about him like he was Kevin Durant. :oldlol:

Things worked out perfectly for MJ. Pippen, Grant hit their primes while MJ was in his prime. The opposition aged or retired during the same time frame. Kareem didn't get Magic until he was 32 (33 by the playoffs). LeBron caught only the tail end of Wade's prime. Yet it is MJ who had the bad breaks with timing! :roll:

[3ball]

:applause:

There is so much BS they throw out there. Also look at my list. A lot of these players are from Pippen's era. Not every top pick immediately got a featured role like they do today.

What is their explanation for Pippen being the 5th pick, higher than many of the legends I listed? He was a scrub, right?

Even the hype about all these other players. They wouldn't be posting the same numbers with MJ taking 30 shots. That is common sense. When "X Man" went to a contender in New York he was a 14/6/2 player. These guys talk about him like he was Kevin Durant. :oldlol:

Things worked out perfectly for MJ. Pippen, Grant hit their primes while MJ was in his prime. The opposition aged or retired during the same time frame. Kareem didn't get Magic until he was 32 (33 by the playoffs). LeBron caught only the tail end of Wade's prime. Yet it is MJ who had the bad breaks with timing! :roll:

Magic, Kobe, Lebron, Kareem - everyone was gifted a sidekick that was already a star - only MJ had to develop his sidekick

In 2006, lebron was gifted a 22/5/5 first-team all-defender and already had the reigning East all-star center - then he was gifted Jamison, Wade, Kyrie, Bosh and Love - he never developed anyone, while mj had to develop single-digit rookies