I'v been thinking for a while that Wilt Chamberlain and LeBron James are very similar

[coastalmarker99]

So I decided to look at what many consider to be their best playoff runs.
For Wilt, 1964, and for LeBron, 2018.

These may not be the best statistically, although they certainly have a great case, but in terms of the significance of them and both of them reaching the Finals to face off against dynasties by themselves, I figured them to be the 2 best.
Stats:
Wilt: 35/25/3.3 on 54%. Defensive stats unavailable(The only game we do have them for this postseason shows him having 12 blocks, unofficially).
LBJ: 34/9/9 on 54%. 1.4 stl and 1 blk.
Remarkably similar numbers, considering the positional difference.
Significance:
Both were facing an old dynastic foe who they had already lost to in years previous. For Wilt, it was the Bill Russell Celtics, for LeBron, it was the KD Warriors. They both had to drag their teams out of their conference through at least one tough, 7 game series.

Wilt managed to get one game, LeBron was a JR Smith away from taking one with a Herculean effort of his own.

Support:
Wilt's teammates combined to shoot 39% from the field over the playoffs, and 35% over the Finals series.
LeBron's combined for 42% over the entire playoffs, and 37% in the Finals.

Best series:
Wilt: WCF, St Louis Hawks:
Averages 39/23/4 on 56%, including a 39p/30r/12blk triple double in game 7 to close out the series.
LeBron: second round, Toronto Raptors:
34/8/11 on 55%. This included the famous "Lebronto" game 2 and the crazy game winner in game 3.
I just thought about this and decided to make a thread for fun.

[coastalmarker99]

Also, both Wilt and LeBron have 4 MVPs each both have played for three different teams, and both joined the Lakers when they were in there mid 30's. also, both have won the finals MVP on two different teams Wilt would have done it with the sixers and lakers if the award had existed in 1967. and both won the title with their hometown teams.

[warriorfan]

Kobe was Michael Jr

LeBron is Wilt Jr

[SouBeachTalents]

Wouldn't most consider Wilt's '67 run to be his best?

[GimmeThat]

comparing a 27 yr old run to a 33 yr old run, then writing out their career. no way is OP trying to make a case about people being unable to learn their lesson, could it.

[coastalmarker99]

Wouldn't most consider Wilt's '67 run to be his best?

yeah, more than likely but 1964 was his best one-man playoff run like LeBron's 2018 they are so similar both were drafted to bad teams and had to deal with that for 7 and 6 years each. both have lead the NBA in scoring and assists. both changed their playstyles to help their teams win. Wilt more so through he did it three times both have a 33 winning percentage in the finals both had to go up against dynasties. and both have one final that is a black mark for them Wilt 1969 and LeBron 2011.

[LeCroix]

2009 for body prime, ws/48 record

2012 lebron for all the marbles, avg 30-10-5 on 50% for entire run

2013 for b2b, epic game 7

2016 for..you know, goat chip

2018 for goa stat run,

[warriorfan]

2009 for body prime, ws/48 record

2012 lebron for all the marbles, avg 30-10-5 on 50% for entire run

2013 for b2b, epic game 7

2016 for..you know, goat chip

2018 for goa stat run,

2009 for losing to Dwight Howard with HCA and Dwight missing his all star pg

2012 for beating a team of a bunch of inexperienced kids during a lockout season

2013 for relying on Ray Allen for bail out vs an aging spurs team

2016 for an asterisk

2018 for doing something Russell Westbrook could do better

[StrongLurk]

Wilt would have even more reason to complain about competition considering he went against the most stacked dynasty ever possible in the NBA. Switch Russell/Wilt and Wilt would be THE legit god of pre-modern NBA with 11 rings in addition to his stats.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wouldn't most consider Wilt's '67 run to be his best?

That is the tough thing about Wilt's career. He was in a scorer role during his first 6-7 seasons. Nobody has ever come close to dominating the way he did when asked to score a high volume. Then in 67' he became a pass first player and led the league in assists (how many players have led the L in scoring and assists?). In the third chapter of his career he reinvented himself as Bill Russell and played that role better than Russell himself (per Russell).

It is a shame the GOAT discussion in the media is limited to two players. Wilt has a strong case: the greatest individual dominance, the ability to dominate the game in three different ways (as a comparison, MJ and LeBron have played the same role their entire careers; KAJ had different roles in his later years).


Wilt would have even more reason to complain about competition considering he went against the most stacked dynasty ever possible in the NBA. Switch Russell/Wilt and Wilt would be THE legit god of pre-modern NBA with 11 rings in addition to his stats.

Which is why the ring worship is ridiculous. It ignores plain old luck involved. If Russell was on any of the other teams we would be talking about Wilt the way hockey fans talk about Gretzky.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt would have even more reason to complain about competition considering he went against the most stacked dynasty ever possible in the NBA. Switch Russell/Wilt and Wilt would be THE legit god of pre-modern NBA with 11 rings in addition to his stats.

The greatest thing I will say about Russell is that if he comes along 15 to 20 years later. Wilt would more than likely be viewed as the undisputed goat he would have won 8 to 10 rings along with his records and stats Wilt would be on the same level as Wayne Gretzky you could not argue a player being greater then Wilt if he had 8 to 10 rings along with his stats He would indisputably be the GOAT, He'd have the greatest individual stats of all time + the greatest team accomplishments of all time. he would have dominated on a level no one in any sport ever did before. Forget Jordan vs Lebron, I have to think it'd be Wilt and then squabble over second place.

[3ball]

Wilt was the goat scorer, or 2nd.. that's more jordan-like then lebron

Wilt dominated scoring on a PER GAME basis... That's more jordan-like then lebron

Lebron is more like Magic - their weak jumpshooting skill and ball-dominance hurt their team's ceiling/Finals record - lebron is 3/9 and Magic is only 5-4 with Kareem

[Roundball_Rock]

Player A: 50 PPG peak, 100 points game high
Player B: 37 PPG peak, 69 points game high (with OT)

Player A clearly is the superior scorer and he had more than one card to play. He could operate successfully in other roles, not just one like MJ.


Wilt would more than likely be viewed as the undisputed goat he would have won 8 to 10 rings along with his records and stats Wilt would be on the same level as Wayne Gretzky you could not argue a player being greater then Wilt if he had 8 to 10 rings along with his stats He would indisputably be the GOAT, He'd have the greatest individual stats of all time + the greatest team accomplishments of all time.

Agreed. If he isn't GOAT he definitely is the BOAT.

[3ball]

Player A: 50 PPG peak, 100 points game high
Player B: 37 PPG peak, 69 points game high (with OT)

Player A clearly is the superior scorer and he had more than one card to play. He could operate successfully in other roles, not just one like MJ.



Agreed. If he isn't GOAT he definitely is the BOAT.

Playoffs

1) Jordan 33.5




122) Wilt 22.0

[coastalmarker99]

Playoffs

1) Jordan 33.5




122) Wilt 22.0
Wilt's regular season (RS) vs playoff (PO) scoring season by season vs the same opponent:

1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. PO
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)

1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)

1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)

1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. ]PO[
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv.PO

1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. PO

1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)

1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. PO
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)

1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. "]PO
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. [PO

1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. PO
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)

1970:
Too small RS samples

1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)

1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. PO
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. PO

1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. PO
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. PO
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv.]PO

RS vs PO: 13-13

Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4

Seems pretty even to me. remember Wilt changed his role after 1966 and barely took any shots when he was a laker with the exception of 1970 before he got hurt and missed 70 games Wilt played the Russell role with the lakers and think about this Wilt was the leading scorer by far on his teams, the leading rebounding on his teams, the leading playmaker, and the defensive anchor on his team. He's done it all. Russell even said himself when he was a commentator for CBS that Wilt on the Lakers was playing his role better than he ever did. it was not about scoring any more for Wilt it was about being a team player and ensuring that his teams had the best chance to win in the playoffs.

[dreamshake]

2009 for losing to Dwight Howard with HCA and Dwight missing his all star pg

2012 for beating a team of a bunch of inexperienced kids during a lockout season

2013 for relying on Ray Allen for bail out vs an aging spurs team

2016 for an asterisk

2018 for doing something Russell Westbrook could do better


You forgot 2011

[dreamshake]

They are pretty similar in the sense of dominating in the regular season and then choking in the NBA finals. Not coincidentally, both Wilt and LeBron have a 33% win percentage in all their finals appearances. That's why they're outside of the top 10 NBA players all time.

[Roundball_Rock]

They are pretty similar in the sense of dominating in the regular season and then choking in the NBA finals. Not coincidentally, both Wilt and LeBron have a 33% win percentage in all their finals appearances. That's why they're outside of the top 10 NBA players all time.

Wilt didn't choke. When one team has 3 HOF players and the other 7 it isn't surprising the other guys won.

[3ball]

Wilt didn't choke. When one team has 3 HOF players and the other 7 it isn't surprising the other guys won.

True, but lebron lost with a 1 HOF deficit, not 4-5 like Wilt

And we're assuming Draymond makes the HOF... lebron should've been able to overcome that

MJ would've... he overcame bigger talent deficits than lebron - the gaps in seeding, SRS, and perennial all-star teammates prove this pretty clearly

[warriorfan]

You forgot 2011

Thank you

[Mamba4Life]

True, but lebron lost with a 1 HOF deficit, not 4-5 like Wilt

And we're assuming Draymond makes the HOF... lebron should've been able to overcome that

MJ would've... he overcame bigger talent deficits than lebron - the gaps in seeding, SRS, and perennial all-star teammates prove this pretty clearly

Kevin Love won’t make the HOF, neither will Kyrie

So it was 1 vs 4 HOF

[warriorfan]

Kevin Love won’t make the HOF, neither will Kyrie

So it was 1 vs 4 HOF

Kevin Love is a rebounding Champion and has the record for most double double games in a row. Multiple All Star games throughout his career. Nba Champion. He’s going to be in the hall.

Kyrie it’s still early to tell. He’s been a top player for many years and has that it factor, he amazes everyone. He’s an incredible basketball talent. If he keeps playing at an elite level for 4 more years or so he will probably get in.

[Axe]

Even with wilt's addition to the lineup in 1968, the lakers prematurely thought that they could finally win a title after 15 years of drought. The rest of the team were confident that they'd finally break through in 1969 but guess what? They were wrong, as the celtics triumphed once again.

Back in those days, bill russell said the most determined team will be the one to win the game and sure enough, it was the celtics that had proved it first among the two. Then the rest of the nba world were shellshocked upon witnessing that moment in their classic history.

[SouBeachTalents]

Even with wilt's addition to the lineup in 1968, the lakers prematurely thought that they could finally win a title after 15 years of drought. The rest of the team were confident that they'd finally break through in 1969 but guess what? They were wrong, as the celtics triumphed once again.
The owner sure did


In anticipation of a Lakers win, Lakers owner Jack Kent Cooke had ordered thousands of balloons with "World Champion Lakers" printed on them suspended from the rafters of the Forum. Flyers were placed in every seat stating, "When, not if, the Lakers win the title, balloons will be released from the rafters, the USC marching band will play "Happy Days Are Here Again" and broadcaster Chick Hearn will interview Elgin Baylor, Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain in that order." Before the game, the Celtics circulated in their locker room a memo about the Lakers' celebration plans. When Jerry West went to the court for a pre game shoot around and saw the balloons, he became furious with Cooke. Russell noted the giant net hanging from the ceiling during pregame warmups and said to West, "Those ****ing balloons are staying up there."

[Axe]

The owner sure did
Yup. Thanks wikipedia.

[RRR3]

Wilt was the goat scorer, or 2nd.. that's more jordan-like then lebron

Wilt dominated scoring on a PER GAME basis... That's more jordan-like then lebron

Lebron is more like Magic - their weak jumpshooting skill and ball-dominance hurt their team's ceiling/Finals record - lebron is 3/9 and Magic is only 5-4 with Kareem
LeBron scored better in the playoffs than Wilt. By quite a bit, in fact.

[Roundball_Rock]

True, but lebron lost with a 1 HOF deficit, not 4-5 like Wilt

And we're assuming Draymond makes the HOF... lebron should've been able to overcome that


That's why I didn't mention LeBron. His situation was lopsided but not nearly as lopsided as Wilt's.



MJ would've... he overcame bigger talent deficits than lebron - the gaps in seeding, SRS, and perennial all-star teammates prove this pretty clearly

What gaps in seeding or wins?

Bulls in finals years: 61, 67, 57, 72, 69, 62 wins.
Bulls' seeds: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st.

Cavs/Heat in finals years: 50, 58, 57*, 66, 54, 53, 57, 51, 50 wins.
Cavs'/Heat seeds: 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 4th.

Compare those win totals to the teams the Cavs and Heat played...

[warriorfan]

That's why I didn't mention LeBron. His situation was lopsided but not nearly as lopsided as Wilt's.



What gaps in seeding or wins?

Bulls in finals years: 61, 67, 57, 72, 69, 62 wins.
Bulls' seeds: 1st, 1st, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st.

Cavs/Heat in finals years: 50, 58, 57*, 66, 54, 53, 57, 51, 50 wins.
Cavs'/Heat seeds: 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 2nd, 4th.

Compare those win totals to the teams the Cavs and Heat played...

LeBron and his team would coast in the eastern conference. “Load management”. In the historically weak East, seeds don’t matter when all the teams are so poor. It makes sense to coast during the regular season so everyone is more healthy for the playoffs and Finals. This is what the Heat and Cavs did. Their record and SRS are lower than they should be for this reason. His teams have been stacked, he’s had a 26/12/4 guy come in as a third option, he’s joined with the 2nd and 4th highest PER in the league and promised 7+ titles. That would be like if MJ lost to the Pistons then quit and joined with Karl Malone and Magic Johnson in his prime.

[Carbine]

Wilt was the goat scorer, or 2nd.. that's more jordan-like then lebron

Wilt dominated scoring on a PER GAME basis... That's more jordan-like then lebron

Lebron is more like Magic - their weak jumpshooting skill and ball-dominance hurt their team's ceiling/Finals record - lebron is 3/9 and Magic is only 5-4 with Kareem

Wilt definitely wasn't the best or second best scorer of all time. You can't go from 30ppg regular season career down to 22ppg and be held in GOAT category, especially in that pace and era.

[Mr Feeny]

Wilt definitely wasn't the best or second best scorer of all time. You can't go from 30ppg regular season career down to 22ppg and be held in GOAT category, especially in that pace and era.


18ppg in the finals.

[Carbine]

Wilt has four playoff runs above 30ppg

His own contemporary Jerry West has 7 of them.

[Mr Feeny]

Lebron is the 2nd greatest player all time. Wilt is a borderline top 8 player. Any comparison is risible.

[Gotterdammerung]

I've been making this comparison ever since LBJ began to dominate the league.

The chief similarity they have in common is their obvious advantage in athletic gifts over the rest of the league: they were simply bigger stronger and faster than anyone else. That means the game came almost too easy for them. And that is why they probably weren't pushed enough or challenged enough on a regular basis. We could tell if they weren't playing at 100% which probably came only in spurts (Wilt when he got his fifth foul in one game, became energized, and LBJ in that Game 7 of the 2016 Finals).

But by the 2018 Finals, I thought LBJ actually reached that MJ-like peak in the playoffs right up until that 51 point game in Game 1. The rest is history.
:durantunimpressed:

[Roundball_Rock]

Wilt definitely wasn't the best or second best scorer of all time. You can't go from 30ppg regular season career down to 22ppg and be held in GOAT category, especially in that pace and era.

Sure you can: his averages went down because a disproportionate share of his playoff appearances came when he was not in a scoring role and because a large chunk of them were against the GOAT defensive player.

When Wilt was tasked to score he did it in a way nobody has ever come close to. For the second half of his career he was asked to facilitate (led the league in assists as a center) or later on to focus on rebounding and defense (a la Russell). We should reward him, not penalize him, for not being a one trick pony.

[Carbine]

Not true. He played regular season games during his down scoring years as well, which brought his regular season scoring down.

[Roundball_Rock]

Not true. He played regular season games during his down scoring years as well, which brought his regular season scoring down.

You play the same # of regular season games each year...his highest playoff runs came during his non-scoring years.

In his six highest playoff game years he averaged: 14, 22, 10, 22, 15, 24.
In his other playoff runs he averaged: 35, 35, 18, 29, 33, 28, 37.

The difference is clear.

[Carbine]

He didn't average over 30PPG in the playoffs after his age 27 season. You are not the best scorer of all time with his playoff scoring resume.

In the four seasons he did average over 30ppg in the playoffs, he went from:

Regular season 37.6 down to 33.2 playoffs
Regular season 38.5 down to 37 playoffs
Regular season 50.4 down to 35 playoffs
Regular season 44.8 down to 34.7 playoffs

He led the league in playoff PPG just once.

How is this the resume of the 2nd best scorer ever?

[Vino24]

LeBron gets better in the playoffs Wilt doesn’t. Can’t see the comparison

[Axe]

Duh. Let's not forget that wilt has become one of the greatest victims of the great 60s celtic dynasty.

[Roundball_Rock]

He was putting up 34 and 29 points on the GOAT defensive player on the GOAT dynasty. He didn't have a chance to stat pad against Dan Majerle or Craig Ehlo. Imagine if Jordan faced Pippen or Payton in 30-40% of his playoff games.

[LAL]

Frontrunning mental midgets.

[Psileas]

He was putting up 34 and 29 points on the GOAT defensive player on the GOAT dynasty. He didn't have a chance to stat pad against Dan Majerle or Craig Ehlo. Imagine if Jordan faced Pippen or Payton in 30-40% of his playoff games.

First this, second, Nate Thurmond (also a GOAT level personal defender) was there for Wilt's second half and even faced Wilt in the same postseason with Russell twice, including a title run. I won't even bother to add Kareem, who was no slouch, either.
All in all, I remember having posted the comparative ppg of Wilt vs each of his playoff opponents compared to the same opponents in the r.s of the same year. Excluding 1970, because he missed the vast majority of the regular season, I got a 13-13 score, meaning that in 50% of his playoff series he had averaged more ppg than in his respective regular season series.

There can't be a more bogus argument than "30.1 vs 22.5". It's a great proof that statistics are not for everyone.
Oh, and Wilt's detractors are still invariably incapable of rounding correctly the number 22.5 (22.54, to be more precise).

[Lebron23]

One is the greatest elimination and game 7 performer of all time the other is Wilt Chamberlain.

[Roundball_Rock]

First this, second, Nate Thurmond (also a GOAT level personal defender) was there for Wilt's second half and even faced Wilt in the same postseason with Russell twice, including a title run. I won't even bother to add Kareem, who was no slouch, either.
All in all, I remember having posted the comparative ppg of Wilt vs each of his playoff opponents compared to the same opponents in the r.s of the same year. Excluding 1970, because he missed the vast majority of the regular season, I got a 13-13 score, meaning that in 50% of his playoff series he had averaged more ppg than in his respective regular season series.

There can't be a more bogus argument than "30.1 vs 22.5". It's a great proof that statistics are not for everyone.
Oh, and Wilt's detractors are still invariably incapable of rounding correctly the number 22.5 (22.54, to be more precise).

The trend I have seen with Wilt, Russell, Kareem is people seem to want to latch on to some specious fig leaf to discredit them as GOAT contenders so they can limit the discussion to MJ, LeBron, and sometimes Kobe. The thing is you can do the same type of review of their records to dismiss them (which probably will happen as time goes by--it already has started with MJ to some extent) too (so Wilt is a choker because of 30 ppg versus 23 ppg but Kobe being a 41% shooter in the finals is the epitome of clutch).

[deathawaitu]

They are both about stats, but when it comes to winning they are both incapable of doing it on a consistent basis

But they are both without a doubt in the top 15

[PP34Deuce]

Lebron is different. Too often people hate him that they can't recognize he's extremely different type of player we haven't seen. We've seen Grant Hill, Tmac, and Scottie Pippen be 6'8 plus elite athletic guys but Lebron is a better scorer than Pippen and Hill and is comparable to Mcgrady while providing superior playmaking ability while having PF size weight and muscle on him.

You can look to the finals record all you want but if you are talking about individual talent, Lebron is something we haven't seen before.

[PP34Deuce]

Kareem has rings and stats along with a game that would be dominate in every era. After Michael Jordan, I have Kareem as number 2.