'Toine=MVP
12-23-2019, 05:13 PM
This topic has come up over and over again, with the dumbest among us thinking it is either stats or rings or some combination of the two, and with smarter people taking more and more subjective analysis into account.
While greatness is a bit of a difficult concept to nail down, I think the real question being asked is 90% covered by asking who are the biggest legends of the game, the players that have had the biggest positive impact on the sport. I think some other considerations can be factored in, as maybe we have a better idea now (some of us) about what should have been considered more strongly by the fans of any era and how the game has changed, etc. But I think when you look at greatness in this way, you can understand why all the talk of career stats and even rings (even record in finals or record in 1st round etc) just so darn silly and pointless.
So...which players have the biggest legacies/positive impact on the sport?
I think there are 5 that are in a class by themselves and 1 that is at the head of the pack. I think there are 2 more that are right at that cusp. Then quite a few in another tier.
This isn't the exact way I'd rank players by greatness, because as I said earlier a small adjustment is needed to cover changing trends and evaluative tools and the ability to look back and see previous eras in a new light.
But here are the players with the biggest legacies.
Group 1. This tier consists of Wilt and Russell, Bird and Magic, and Jordan. These are really the guys that made the NBA great. Jordan is at the head of this and while young people won't understand it, no matter how much you hated MJ, there was really no argument against him. If he played during the social media/message board world, maybe it would have hurt his legacy a bit, but he didn't play in that era. He played in the era of an ever expanding television audience which cemented his legacy in a way incomparable to anyone else. Russell and Wilt were so long considered the best the game had ever produced (really all the way until the early/mid 80s probably where the effect of Bird and Magic had fully taken root and the modern era of the NBA was upon us). Four of these five won a very high percentage of rings during their prime years. Wilt did not, but stood out for other reasons, with no one matching his prowess until Shaq many many years later.
Group 2. This is for Shaq and Dr. J. Shaq was the closest thing we've seen to Wilt and in some ways a more impressive version of him. It will likely be a long time until someone bigger and more dominant physically ever emerges. And he was able to win at a high rate during his prime. Dr J. gets blasted by some as being a sort of lesser version of some athletic players that came after him, but he was a multiple MVP and champion, winning in the ABA (which was better than the NBA in the 70s) and really being the face of a new brand of basketball on which the entire NBA has been developed since.
Group 2: Oscar, West, Kareem (for now). These guys all have a kind of nostalgic legacy that is built on shakier ground than the guys above them. Kareem's legacy was buoyed by being 2nd banana on the later 80s Lakers teams and his talent level (which is sort of part of that "extra 10 percent" factor was higher than Oscar and West especially in light of the modern era that followed them. But they have largely untainted legacies built over the years.
Group 3: Maybe over time these guys (or some/one of them) can lurch into Group 2, but LeBron, Kobe, Duncan all fall into this group. They've all won a lot and have been highly talented, but failed to live up to similar players legacies of the past. To some degree they are victims of the time they played and who they played with and against, and history will have to sort that out. But right now, none have developed the status/legacy of the ones listed above, on whom the NBA was built. There is a recency bias against them for sure. But the burden is higher on players that come after other greats. And none of these guys have changed the game in any serious way. LeBron comes the closest of these 3 because of his physical talents which are arguably unmatched, but people are not in awe of him the way they were of Shaq let's say, nevermind the awe factor of Jordan or Wilt. At least Kobe and Duncan while not having much of an impact on the state of the sport didn't do much in terms of the game to really hurt the sport. LeBron has done that as the leader of the ducking era where you just give up trying to compete and instead work with your rivals to (try) and crush the league. It didn't work out as well for LeBron as he had planned though, but he keeps at it. His legacy includes those that have come after, namely Durant, whose cowardice was objectively worse than LeBron's, but who might not have chosen the same path if not for the negative aspects of LeBron's legacy. He also has the black mark that no other great really has, with that Dallas series. Again, the fact that he might be the most talented player ever is going to help him eek up the GOAT list a little, but his legacy is lacking and that is 90% of the battle.
Group 4: Hakeem and Moses Malone. While they are both higher on my GOAT list than Kobe and arguable ahead of Duncan, and while they both won and were both great in their peaks, they are both guys that tend to get a little forgotten by history and I think for good reason. I mean, they should be remembered to a greater degree than they are, but we are talking about legacy and they fall in this group for a reason.
Group 5: KG, Karl Malone, Barkley. These were players that were never quite considered the best in the game at any point in their careers (not seriously anyway), but often considered right up there. Their biggest dings in terms of legacy is simply not winning enough. KG at least won one ring at the tail end of his prime or possibly the beginning of a very short slightly post-prime (before his 2009 injury which was the start of a truly different KG). KG not being on winning teams and to some degree being the cause of that is a ding to his legacy and if it were not for the trade to Boston (very different from a FA signing) to form an older guy not quite superteam, he would possibly not have proven his worthiness to be next to stars like Malone and Barkley, who were never able to win at all.
Group 6: Some modern players might fall into this where they can possibly rise up the ranks a bit over time, though KD will have kind of a hard ceiling due to the continuation/magnification of the LeBron ducking legacy. Steph could rise too, but we've likely seen the limits of his impact. Obviously guys like Giannis or other guys just entering their primes will have a chance to prove themselves over time. It is just too early to say where they will fall. I also think this group might be a catch-all for some greats of the past that are more truly forgotten. They are capped in this tier though in terms of their legacy, though maybe over time guys like from the tier above will sort of fade into this tier as well with older guys like Elvin Hayes or others.
While greatness is a bit of a difficult concept to nail down, I think the real question being asked is 90% covered by asking who are the biggest legends of the game, the players that have had the biggest positive impact on the sport. I think some other considerations can be factored in, as maybe we have a better idea now (some of us) about what should have been considered more strongly by the fans of any era and how the game has changed, etc. But I think when you look at greatness in this way, you can understand why all the talk of career stats and even rings (even record in finals or record in 1st round etc) just so darn silly and pointless.
So...which players have the biggest legacies/positive impact on the sport?
I think there are 5 that are in a class by themselves and 1 that is at the head of the pack. I think there are 2 more that are right at that cusp. Then quite a few in another tier.
This isn't the exact way I'd rank players by greatness, because as I said earlier a small adjustment is needed to cover changing trends and evaluative tools and the ability to look back and see previous eras in a new light.
But here are the players with the biggest legacies.
Group 1. This tier consists of Wilt and Russell, Bird and Magic, and Jordan. These are really the guys that made the NBA great. Jordan is at the head of this and while young people won't understand it, no matter how much you hated MJ, there was really no argument against him. If he played during the social media/message board world, maybe it would have hurt his legacy a bit, but he didn't play in that era. He played in the era of an ever expanding television audience which cemented his legacy in a way incomparable to anyone else. Russell and Wilt were so long considered the best the game had ever produced (really all the way until the early/mid 80s probably where the effect of Bird and Magic had fully taken root and the modern era of the NBA was upon us). Four of these five won a very high percentage of rings during their prime years. Wilt did not, but stood out for other reasons, with no one matching his prowess until Shaq many many years later.
Group 2. This is for Shaq and Dr. J. Shaq was the closest thing we've seen to Wilt and in some ways a more impressive version of him. It will likely be a long time until someone bigger and more dominant physically ever emerges. And he was able to win at a high rate during his prime. Dr J. gets blasted by some as being a sort of lesser version of some athletic players that came after him, but he was a multiple MVP and champion, winning in the ABA (which was better than the NBA in the 70s) and really being the face of a new brand of basketball on which the entire NBA has been developed since.
Group 2: Oscar, West, Kareem (for now). These guys all have a kind of nostalgic legacy that is built on shakier ground than the guys above them. Kareem's legacy was buoyed by being 2nd banana on the later 80s Lakers teams and his talent level (which is sort of part of that "extra 10 percent" factor was higher than Oscar and West especially in light of the modern era that followed them. But they have largely untainted legacies built over the years.
Group 3: Maybe over time these guys (or some/one of them) can lurch into Group 2, but LeBron, Kobe, Duncan all fall into this group. They've all won a lot and have been highly talented, but failed to live up to similar players legacies of the past. To some degree they are victims of the time they played and who they played with and against, and history will have to sort that out. But right now, none have developed the status/legacy of the ones listed above, on whom the NBA was built. There is a recency bias against them for sure. But the burden is higher on players that come after other greats. And none of these guys have changed the game in any serious way. LeBron comes the closest of these 3 because of his physical talents which are arguably unmatched, but people are not in awe of him the way they were of Shaq let's say, nevermind the awe factor of Jordan or Wilt. At least Kobe and Duncan while not having much of an impact on the state of the sport didn't do much in terms of the game to really hurt the sport. LeBron has done that as the leader of the ducking era where you just give up trying to compete and instead work with your rivals to (try) and crush the league. It didn't work out as well for LeBron as he had planned though, but he keeps at it. His legacy includes those that have come after, namely Durant, whose cowardice was objectively worse than LeBron's, but who might not have chosen the same path if not for the negative aspects of LeBron's legacy. He also has the black mark that no other great really has, with that Dallas series. Again, the fact that he might be the most talented player ever is going to help him eek up the GOAT list a little, but his legacy is lacking and that is 90% of the battle.
Group 4: Hakeem and Moses Malone. While they are both higher on my GOAT list than Kobe and arguable ahead of Duncan, and while they both won and were both great in their peaks, they are both guys that tend to get a little forgotten by history and I think for good reason. I mean, they should be remembered to a greater degree than they are, but we are talking about legacy and they fall in this group for a reason.
Group 5: KG, Karl Malone, Barkley. These were players that were never quite considered the best in the game at any point in their careers (not seriously anyway), but often considered right up there. Their biggest dings in terms of legacy is simply not winning enough. KG at least won one ring at the tail end of his prime or possibly the beginning of a very short slightly post-prime (before his 2009 injury which was the start of a truly different KG). KG not being on winning teams and to some degree being the cause of that is a ding to his legacy and if it were not for the trade to Boston (very different from a FA signing) to form an older guy not quite superteam, he would possibly not have proven his worthiness to be next to stars like Malone and Barkley, who were never able to win at all.
Group 6: Some modern players might fall into this where they can possibly rise up the ranks a bit over time, though KD will have kind of a hard ceiling due to the continuation/magnification of the LeBron ducking legacy. Steph could rise too, but we've likely seen the limits of his impact. Obviously guys like Giannis or other guys just entering their primes will have a chance to prove themselves over time. It is just too early to say where they will fall. I also think this group might be a catch-all for some greats of the past that are more truly forgotten. They are capped in this tier though in terms of their legacy, though maybe over time guys like from the tier above will sort of fade into this tier as well with older guys like Elvin Hayes or others.