MJ won 6 rings in the format we'll see in 2020

[3ball]

2-star vs. 2-star format (90's format)

So MJ and Paul George (aka Pip) would win 6 rings in today's 90's format.

And don't tell me Rodman was a 3rd star because we've never looked at any 36-year old and considered them star-caliber at that age - Rodman averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' playoffs and wasn't even the starter in the 98' playoffs (4/8 in the 98' Finals).

Even if you want to consider Rodman a 3rd star, Jordan still 3-peated with a 2-star team from 91-93', while Lebron and Durant failed to 3-peat with 4 HOF teams in 2014 and 2019.. So Jordan 3-peats with 1 star teammate, while Lebron and Durant aren't capable of 3-peating with 3 other stars..

[Haymaker]

2-star vs. 2-star format (90's format)

So MJ and Paul George (aka Pip) would win 6 rings in today's 90's format.

And don't tell me Rodman was a 3rd star because we've never looked at any 36-year old and considered them star-caliber at that age - Rodman averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' playoffs and wasn't even the starter in the 98' playoffs (4/8 in the 98' Finals).

Even if you want to consider Rodman a 3rd star, Jordan still 3-peated with a 2-star team from 91-93', while Lebron and Durant failed to 3-peat with 4 HOF teams in 2014 and 2019.. So Jordan 3-peats with 1 star teammate, while Lebron and Durant aren't capable of 3-peating with 3 other stars..

Paul George wasn't even half the leader and playmaker Scottie was. :wtf:

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody builds a house on wild extrapolation quite like you.

[SouBeachTalents]

This nigguh talking about Durant didn

[3ball]

Nobody builds a house on wild extrapolation quite like you.
Everything I said was valid

It's a 2-star league now just like the 90's, after Lebron's "decision" in 2011 spear-headed a brief period of Big 3 vs Big 3 format (or Big 4 once Durant one-upped Bron)

Let's face it - in a 2-star vs 2 star format, the team that has MJ wins... :oldlol:
.

[3ball]

This nigguh talking about Durant didn’t 3peat when he missed half the playoffs :lol

Now that’s a valid excuse, unlike the bullshit pass Jordan gets for ‘95


Wouldn't be the first time if memory serves

It's all part of the equation - he wasn't strong enough to hold up physically for a 3-peat, and wasn't smart enough or alpha enough to tell the Warriors he'll be back when he's back

[3ball]

Paul George wasn't even half the leader and playmaker Scottie was. :wtf:


Leader?

MJ raised Pip from a tiny cub

Without MJ, Pip choked 3 times against the Knicks (sat out game 3, dumb foul on jumpshooter in game 5, horrific game 7).. literally the worst leadership of any #1 option.. ever.. with the exception of the 11' Finals with Lebron - that was probably worse leadership

Paul George was good on his own, especially offensively - he didn't need to land next to the top scorer and dpoy in the league to learn moves and develop into a good 2-way player..

And PG13 developed into a far better offensive player than Pippen could ever dream - Pippen couldn't shoot worth a lick, and never had a break-down handle off-the-dribble - he got his points and dimes in the flow, and often off of MJ and the attention he draws.

[sdot_thadon]

Everything I said was valid

It's a 2-star league now just like the 90's, after Lebron's "decision" in 2011 spear-headed a brief period of Big 3 vs Big 3 format (or Big 4 once Durant one-upped Bron)

Let's face it Kblaze - in a 2-star vs 2 star format, the team that has MJ wins... :oldlol:
In the laughable "2v2 star format" , how many of those teams 2nd guy was better than Scottie?

[3ball]

In the laughable "2v2 star format" , how many of those teams 2nd guy was better than Scottie?


1.) If I say Worthy was All-NBA in 1991 and Pippen wasn't an all-star, you'll argue that Pippen was the better player historically and had the better career.. But the reality is that Worthy averaged 22 ppg on 64% in the 84' Finals (22 years old), and had many series where he averaged 25+ as 1st option over Kareem/Magic (i.e. 26 ppg vs. Bad Boys in 89' Finals.. 88' FMVP).. Pippen could never carry that kind of burden or reach Finals MVP-level like Worthy did.. Worthy started out as better (high school, college, draft) and I'm not sure he was ever worse than Pippen (while being better on many occasions).


2.)

S KEMP 1996 PO: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. 64.0 ts
PIPPEN 1996 PO: 16.9 ppg.... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts


S KEMP 1996 FINALS: 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. 63.3 ts
PIPPEN 1996 FINALS: 15.7 ppg.... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts


Kemp > 2nd three-peat Pippen... That's why the Bulls wanted to trade Pippen for Kemp in 1995... And if you want to say that Payton was the 2nd option, well 96' Payton > 2nd three-peat Pippen too.. Even Schrempf averaged 16.3 on 44% in the 96' Finals, so he outplayed Pippen's 15.7 on 34% (and Schrempf was the more skilled scorer in general, as many guys were).


3.) You guys brag about Pippen winning 55 games - but KJ routinely led the Suns to 55 wins pre-Barkley, including an upset win over a 60-win, 1-seeded Magic Johnson team in 1990.. KJ averaged 23 and 11 apg in that series - that was standard for him.. Pippen has simply never played or led on that level and his stats aren't as good as KJ's.. Ultimately, the ability of guys like KJ, Worthy and Kemp to be 25+ scorers that can lead (i.e. KJ) or be #1 options in a series over other all-time greats (i.e. Worthy/Kemp) puts them on a different level than Pippen, who is more like a better slashing Draymond - similarly, Draymond would never be a #1 option over any all-time great.. :rolleyes: .. :facepalm


4) Other guys in the 90's that were better 2nd options that Pippen:

Penny (1995 and 1996)
Stockton (every year)
David Robinson (1998)
Drexler (1995 and 1996)

And so many guys were better offensive players than Pippen that it's hard to really guage, especially if they didn't take away from a great defense and/or were on great defensive teams.. Guys like Tim Hardaway and Sam Cassell were better offensive players and have been on various good defensive teams - they were "dogs" and were good for defensive culture and competitiveness.. Brad Daughtery was a far better offensive player and was a solid defender that played on good defensive teams.. A guy like Dumars was also a better offensive player and comparable defender... and MANY MORE GUYS were better offensive players and don't hinder defense/on good defensive teams.. too many to list..

[Turbo Slayer]

3ball is spreading lies.

[3ball]

3ball is spreading lies.


When you're talking about those Bulls teams, you're really only talking about Michael Jordan.

Is that a lie too?

Because that's what Isiah said at halftime of a 93' Finals game to Bob Costas with Magic essentially in agreement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m34s


Even at the height of the Bulls' first 3-peat, it was still the MJ show - a 1-man show on offense - the only guy to win as scoring champ, aside from shaq and kareem's best season.. facts gonna facts

[SouBeachTalents]

When you're talking about those Bulls teams, you're really only talking about Michael Jordan.

Is that a lie too?

Because that's what Isiah said at halftime of a 93' Finals game to Bob Costas with Magic essentially in agreement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m34s


Even at the height of the Bulls' first 3-peat, it was still the MJ show - a 1-man show on offense - the only guy to win as scoring champ, aside from shaq and kareem's best season.. facts gonna facts
It's amazing then that very same team could lose the only player that mattered yet still go on to win 55 games and nearly make the conference finals without him :oldlol:

And since we care so much about the opinion of Isiah

https://www.slamonline.com/slam-tv/isiah-thomas-lebron-james-much-better-basketball-player-michael-jordan/

[bigkingsfan]

Ordan - Pippen = 0 rings

[bullettooth]

Ordan - Pippen = 0 rings

LeBron + Wade + Bosh + Kyrie + Love + Allen = 6 Finals Losses

[bigkingsfan]

LeBron + Wade + Bosh + Kyrie + Love + Allen = 6 Finals Losses
That's not a bad total for six players.

[3ball]

It's amazing then that very same team could lose the only player that mattered yet still go on to win 55 games and nearly make the conference finals without him :oldlol:

And since we care so much about the opinion of Isiah

https://www.slamonline.com/slam-tv/isiah-thomas-lebron-james-much-better-basketball-player-michael-jordan/


I'll take Isiah's real-time thoughts in the moment when it was all happening, than a revised opinion 30 years later that aligns with his career objectives and "brand" (corporate shill)

Regarding the 55 wins.... Notice how the best teams of this era - Spurs/Warriors - they play 55-caliber-style ball without Duncan and KD.. It's almost like to achieve a rare goat-level dynasty, you must achieve a great brand of basketball and teamwork, regardless of talent level.. You think goat-level dynasties are just based on talent and play shit brands that can't compete without their star?.. They wouldn't be goat dynasties if that's the brand they played, and would lose championships instead of winning them.. You have to play great basketball to 3-peat or be anywhere near that level and the Bulls learned how to play that quality of basketball - they certainly didn't win based off talent - you can't point to their roster and show me where it's stacked

Now it's a testament to MJ's supremely goat skill that he could fit a goat PER/production/stats into that level of quality teamwork.. And that's the knock on Lebron - his ball-dominance prevents him from fitting goat stats into a great brand of teamwork and basketball.. MJ succeeded in doing so, and infact is the only guy to win titles as scoring champ - most guys win scoring titles during their "hot dog" years where they go all out, and then have to tone it down to actually win rings.. but MJ was the only guy whose game was naturally optimal enough to hot dog it to a scoring title every year and win the title with goat teamwork too.

So Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't fit in with great ball movement to allow a goat brand or goat dynasty, and he's also an overrated carry-job guy of weaker teams.. His 07' Finals run was accomplished during a decade when 4 other weak casts also made the Finals (09' Dwight, Kidd twice and 01' AI) - so he should get knocked more for ceding the easy run to Dwight in 09' and not commanding sufficient double-teams to free up teammates and win that series as the significant favorite that he was.. His conference didn't require a strong cast to make the Finals, but he couldn't make it in 09/10 and stacked the deck thereafter to ensure Finals run.. So he's a weasel..

Heck, MJ beat a better team in 89' (#1 SRS Cavs) than Lebron lost to in 09' and with a weaker cast (6 seed underdog instead of 1 seed favorite.. and 09' Mo > 89' Pippen).. That's how we know MJ would've won easily as in 09' as the massive favorite the Cavs were - he beat a better team with a worse cast in 89'!.. And he wouldn't have been exploited by a no-double-team strategy like Lebron did, so that would've freed up teammates more, plus SVG has to deal with the off-ball aspect of defending MJ (doubling him off screens and pindowns)
.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'll take Isiah's real-time thoughts in the moment when it was all happening, than a revised opinion 30 years later that aligns with his career objectives and "brand" (corporate shill)

Regarding the 55 wins.... Notice how the best teams of this era - Spurs/Warriors - they play 55-caliber-style ball without Duncan and KD.. It's almost like to achieve a rare goat-level dynasty, you must achieve a great brand of basketball and teamwork, regardless of talent level.. You think goat-level dynasties are just based on talent and play shit brands that can't compete without their star?.. They wouldn't be goat dynasties if that's the brand they played, and would lose championships instead of winning them.. You have to play great basketball to 3-peat or be anywhere near that level and the Bulls learned how to play that quality of basketball.

Now it's a testament to MJ's supremely goat skill that he could fit a goat PER/production/stats into that level of quality teamwork.. And that's the knock on Lebron - his ball-dominance prevents him from fitting goat stats into a great brand of teamwork and basketball.. MJ succeeded in doing so, and infact is the only guy to win titles as scoring champ - most guys win scoring titles during their "hot dog" years where they go all out, and then have to tone it down to actually win rings.. but MJ was the only guy whose game was naturally optimal enough to hot dog it to a scoring title every year and win the title with goat teamwork too.

So Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't fit in with great ball movement to allow a goat brand or goat dynasty, and he's also an overrated carry-job guy of weaker teams.. His 07' Finals run was accomplished during a decade when 4 other weak casts also made the Finals (09' Dwight, Kidd twice and 01' AI) - so he should get knocked more for ceding the easy run to Dwight in 09' and not commanding sufficient double-teams to free up teammates and win that series as the significant favorite that he was.. His conference didn't require a strong cast to make the Finals, but he couldn't make it in 09/10 and stacked the deck thereafter to ensure Finals run.. So he's a weasel..

Heck, MJ beat a better team in 89' (#1 SRS Cavs) than Lebron lost to in 09' and with a weaker cast (6 seed underdog instead of 1 seed favorite..and 09' (09' Mo > 89' Pippen).. That's how we know MJ would've won easily as in 09' as the massive favorite the Cavs were - he beat a better team with a worse cast in 89'!.. And he wouldn't have been exploited by a no-double-team strategy like Lebron did, so that would've freed up teammates more, plus SVG has to deal with the off-ball aspect of defending MJ (doubling him off screens and pindowns)
1-9

[egokiller]

Paul George wasn't even half the leader and playmaker Scottie was. :wtf:

How could he be? PG never had MJ to mold him into that level of player.

[Vino24]

Pete Myers had essentially the same impact as MJ

[eliteballer]

How many stars had a #2 as good as Pippen in the 90's?

[sdot_thadon]

1.) If I say Worthy was All-NBA in 1991 and Pippen wasn't an all-star, you'll argue that Pippen was the better player historically and had the better career.. But the reality is that Worthy averaged 22 ppg on 64% in the 84' Finals (22 years old), and had many series where he averaged 25+ as 1st option over Kareem/Magic (i.e. 26 ppg vs. Bad Boys in 89' Finals.. 88' FMVP).. Pippen could never carry that kind of burden or reach Finals MVP-level like Worthy did.. Worthy started out as better (high school, college, draft) and I'm not sure he was ever worse than Pippen (while being better on many occasions).


2.)

S KEMP 1996 PO: 20.9 ppg.. 10.4 rpg.. 1.5 apg.. 1.4 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 57.0 fg.. 64.0 ts
PIPPEN 1996 PO: 16.9 ppg.... 8.5 rpg.. 5.9 apg.. 2.6 spg.. 0.9 bpg.. 39.0 fg.. 47.3 ts


S KEMP 1996 FINALS: 23.3 ppg.. 10.0 rpg.. 2.2 apg.. 1.3 spg.. 2.0 bpg.. 55.1 fg.. 63.3 ts
PIPPEN 1996 FINALS: 15.7 ppg.... 8.2 rpg.. 5.3 apg.. 2.3 spg.. 1.3 bpg.. 34.3 fg.. 42.9 ts


Kemp > 2nd three-peat Pippen... That's why the Bulls wanted to trade Pippen for Kemp in 1995... And if you want to say that Payton was the 2nd option, well 96' Payton > 2nd three-peat Pippen too.. Even Schrempf averaged 16.3 on 44% in the 96' Finals, so he outplayed Pippen's 15.7 on 34% (and Schrempf was the more skilled scorer in general, as many guys were).


3.) You guys brag about Pippen winning 55 games - but KJ routinely led the Suns to 55 wins pre-Barkley, including an upset win over a 60-win, 1-seeded Magic Johnson team in 1990.. KJ averaged 23 and 11 apg in that series - that was standard for him.. Pippen has simply never played or led on that level and his stats aren't as good as KJ's.. Ultimately, the ability of guys like KJ, Worthy and Kemp to be 25+ scorers that can lead (i.e. KJ) or be #1 options in a series over other all-time greats (i.e. Worthy/Kemp) puts them on a different level than Pippen, who is more like a better slashing Draymond - similarly, Draymond would never be a #1 option over any all-time great.. :rolleyes: .. :facepalm


4) Other guys in the 90's that were better 2nd options that Pippen:

Penny (1995 and 1996)
Stockton (every year)
David Robinson (1998)
Drexler (1995 and 1996)

And so many guys were better offensive players than Pippen that it's hard to really guage, especially if they didn't take away from a great defense and/or were on great defensive teams.. Guys like Tim Hardaway and Sam Cassell were better offensive players and have been on various good defensive teams - they were "dogs" and were good for defensive culture and competitiveness.. Brad Daughtery was a far better offensive player and was a solid defender that played on good defensive teams.. A guy like Dumars was also a better offensive player and comparable defender... and MANY MORE GUYS were better offensive players and don't hinder defense/on good defensive teams.. too many to list..
smokin good dope I see.:oldlol:

Payton and Kemp were 2 2nd option level guys that were basically both Pippen level, that year at least cant say much for the other years. Scottie had more Mvp votes in 96 than Payton and Kemp combined...

Stockton? :oldlol: ooook.

At least Penny is a decent argument I'll give you that one. Even if it's a whole 2 year comparison.

Mj never played Robinson in a game that mattered.

And as a Houstonian I Iove Clyde but he wasn't better than Scottie at that point of his career.

The rest aren't even worth mentioning, I'm seriously doubting you are a 90s fan at this point.....

[Smoke117]

You guys really need to stop humoring this mans deep mental illness. We are in year 5 of him obsessing like this all day on this board. It was amusing the first two years or so, but it's become absolutely pitiable for a long time now. This man clearly needs some kind of deep mental therapeutic help in his life and we need to stop making light of his condition.

[3ball]

smokin good dope I see.:oldlol:

Payton and Kemp were 2 2nd option level guys that were basically both Pippen level, that year at least cant say much for the other years. Scottie had more Mvp votes in 96 than Payton and Kemp combined...

Stockton? :oldlol: ooook.

At least Penny is a decent argument I'll give you that one. Even if it's a whole 2 year comparison.

Mj never played Robinson in a game that mattered.

And as a Houstonian I Iove Clyde but he wasn't better than Scottie at that point of his career.

The rest aren't even worth mentioning, I'm seriously doubting you are a 90s fan at this point.....
So you agree with Payton/Kemp, Robinson, and Penny

That's most of the guys I named.. and Drexler never played as horribly as 2nd three-peat Pippen

Regarding the others - ur a dumb robot that can't process nuance, so i don't expect you to think a short white guy could be as good as anyone that won 6 rings.. or any of the other guys and rationale that i mentioned...

I should type my responses to you in binary code so you can understand .. 00011110011100000111001010100001111.. you don't know basketball and obviously never picked up a ball in your life
.

[Vino24]

Pete Myers had a bigger defensive impact than MJ

[SouBeachTalents]

So you agree with Payton/Kemp, Robinson, and Penny

That's most of the guys I named.. and Drexler never played as horribly as 2nd three-peat Pippen

Regarding the others - ur a dumb robot that can't process nuance, so i don't expect you to think a short white guy could be as good as anyone that won 6 rings.. or any of the other guys and rationale that i mentioned...

I should type my responses to you in binary code so you can understand .. 00011110011100000111001010100001111
:oldlol: You HAVE to be trolling, There's not a poster on this site that uses less nuance and context than you

[3ball]

:oldlol: You HAVE to be trolling, There's not a poster on this site that uses less nuance and context than you
You guys just can't accept that MJ won 6 rings in the 2-star format we have now - why is this obvious fact so hard fpr you guys to admit???... :biggums:


And btw, no one backs up theor posts with evidence like i do

No one

You should read one sometime and see

Instead, you skim my posts, miss everything, and then say i don't use nuance..

my posts are legitimate attempts at basketball discussion and I mostly get troll responses, or purely biased, nut-hugging shit (sdot), or shit that shows the person has no understanding of the game (sdot)

[Vino24]

No one backs up theor posts with evidence like i do

No one

You should read one sometime and see

Instead, you skim my posts, miss everything, and then say i don't use nuance..

my posts are legitimate attempts at basketball discussion and I mostly get troll responses, or purely biased, nut-hugging shit (sdot), or shit that shows the person has no understanding of the game (sdot)
You have been caught fudging data (as if MJ needed even mode help) :oldlol:

[3ball]

You have been caught fudging data (as if MJ needed even mode help) :oldlol:
You mean saying Pippen averaged 17 on 40.8% in the 96-98' playoffs instead of 17.6??

Is that what ur talking about??? Other than negligible discrepancies like that (which don't change the point being made), my posts are 100% accurate

The other day, I showed how Lebron's 07' Finals was worse at every stat than MJ's series, but I mistyped Lebron's ortg - so he trailed MJ by 15 points instead of "only" 10... This minor typo (that didn't change the point being made) was harped on and the thread derailed - I was accused of posting inaccurate numbers, which is bs, obviously

^^^ is THIS the kind of "fudging" you're talking about? Because I don't fudge numbers - I don't need to because mj's numbers are already goat

You guys just can't accept that MJ won 6 rings in the 2-star format we have now - why is this obvious fact so hard fpr you guys to admit???... :biggums:

[3ball]

You mean saying Pippen averaged 17 on 40.8% in the 96-98' playoffs instead of 17.6??

Is that what ur talking about??? Other than negligible discrepancies like that (which don't change the point being made), my posts are 100% accurate

The other day, I showed how Lebron's 07' Finals was worse at every stat than MJ's series, but I mistyped Lebron's ortg - so he trailed MJ by 15 points instead of "only" 10... This minor typo (that didn't change the point being made) was harped on and the thread derailed - I was accused of posting inaccurate numbers, which is bs, obviously

^^^ is THIS the kind of "fudging" you're talking about? Because I don't fudge numbers - I don't need to because mj's numbers are already goat

You guys just can't accept that MJ 3-peated in the 2-star format we have now - why is this obvious fact so hard for you guys to admit???... :biggums:


Anyone???

Are you saying MJ didn't 3-peat in a 2-star format? (he did)

Are you saying today's game isn't a 2-star format?? (it is)

[SouBeachTalents]

You mean saying Pippen averaged 17 on 40.8% in the 96-98' playoffs instead of 17.6??

Is that what ur talking about??? Other than negligible discrepancies like that (which don't change the point being made), my posts are 100% accurate

The other day, I showed how Lebron's 07' Finals was worse at every stat than MJ's series, but I mistyped Lebron's ortg - so he trailed MJ by 15 points instead of "only" 10... This minor typo (that didn't change the point being made) was harped on and the thread derailed - I was accused of posting inaccurate numbers, which is bs, obviously

^^^ is THIS the kind of "fudging" you're talking about? Because I don't fudge numbers - I don't need to because mj's numbers are already goat

You guys just can't accept that MJ won 6 rings in the 2-star format we have now - why is this obvious fact so hard fpr you guys to admit???... :biggums:
And you just can't admit that Jordan had the superior 2nd star in nearly every series he won

[Vino24]

Either the 90

[3ball]

Nobody builds a house on wild extrapolation quite like you.


How is it a "wild extrapolation"??

Is today's league not a 2-star format?... Isn't that like the 90's?.. Didn't Jordan 3-peat in the 2-star format of the 90's?

Where's the wild extrapolation??...

You just don't like the truth so you make up your own (i.e. it's a "wild extrapolation").. u and sdot are the most disengenuous posters on here.. and the 2 posters i would identify that have the most useless knowledge about the game, not knowledge of how the game actually plays

[3ball]

Jordan had the superior 2nd star in nearly every series he won



This is your definion "nearly every series"???... :biggums:


Scottie Pippen



1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%

1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2% (9.7 on 40.4% in ecf)

1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8% (2 pts, 1-10 in game 7)

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2%

1994 ECSF vs NYN:. 21.7 on 40.5%

1995 ECSF vs ORL 19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%



Here's all the series wins where MJ had the inferior 2nd option:



1988 First Rd

1989 1st Rd
1989 ECF

1990 ECF

1992 ECF

1995 ECSF

1996 ECSF
1996 Finals

1997 1st Rd
1997 ECF

1998 ECF
1998 Finals



Here's all the series where MJ had the worse 3rd option and remaining cast:



most series



There's a reason why MJ had to achieve the #1 all-time PPG and efficiency rating (PER), and it isn't because his team was stacked .. :rolleyes: :facepalm




Btw, KJ and Worthy > Pippen (they did bigger/better things), but they didn't win 6 rings with MJ, so they're viewed as inferior ...

But Worthy averaged 22 on 64% against the 84' Celtics at 22 years old, and had many series with over 25+ (26 ppg in 89' Finals vs Bad Boys... 88' FMVP) - like, Pippen can't do stuff like that and is infact inferior to Worthy

And you guys give Pippen props for winning 55, but KJ was routinely doing that pre-Barkley and led an upset of Magic's 1 seeded Lakers in the 90' playoffs - he averaged 23 ppg and 11 apg - this was standard for KJ and Pippen isn't capable of that
..

[SouBeachTalents]

Btw, KJ and Worthy > Pippen (they did bigger/better things), but they didn't win 6 rings with MJ, so they're viewed as inferior ...

But Worthy averaged 22 on 64% against the 84' Celtics at 22 years old, and had many series with over 25+ (26 ppg in 89' Finals vs Bad Boys... 88' FMVP) - like, Pippen can't do stuff like that and is infact inferior to Worthy

And you guys give Pippen props for winning 55, but KJ was routinely doing that pre-Barkley and led an upset of Magic's 1 seeded Lakers in the 90' playoffs - he averaged 23 ppg and 11 apg - this was standard for KJ and Pippen isn't capable of that
..
Posts like these makes me question if you actually understand basketball. Pippen is about as ideal a sidekick that Jordan could ask for. The Bulls get SIGNIFICANTLY worse swapping him out for the likes of Worthy & KJ. Their defense, Chicago's hallmark throughout their championships especially gets worse

By your rationale, Jordan & someone like Westbrook would've won more championships than Jordan & Pippen did

[3ball]

Posts like these makes me question if you actually understand basketball. Pippen is about as ideal a sidekick that Jordan could ask for.


You realize that mj led the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen right? (88, 89, 90, 91, 93, 97)

So it's "ideal" to have MJ score 33.5 ppg in the playoffs, while everyone in history is at 27-29 ppg or less........... AND lead his team in assists most playoff runs?

That's "ideal" to you?.. :biggums: ... Your basketball knowledge tell you that's "ideal"????!?

It's goat, but not "ideal"... :rolleyes:

Ultimately, only MJ won rings as the scoring champ - that's hardly "ideal".... Only MJ led his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career, and he did so by an average margin of 15.4 ppg over his 2nd option....... while leading in assists most years.... Again, not "ideal"... :facepalm

You're simply taking MJ's goatness for granted by saying it's "ideal" that he scored more than anyone else while leading the team in passing too






The Bulls get SIGNIFICANTLY worse swapping him out for the likes of Worthy & KJ. Their defense, Chicago's hallmark throughout their championships especially gets worse


Says who? You?... You aren't considering how the team would be built differently around KJ or worthy, than Pippen

Generally, defensive players are much cheaper than offensive players - if the Bulls already had KJ instead of Pippen (assuming same salaries), it would be easier and they would spend less filling out the roster with defensive players than they would getting shooters/scorers, etc to surround and offset Pippen's weaker offense.

So you haven't considered anything or fleshed out how it would work, thus rendering your hypothetical useless

MJ, KJ, Horace, plus a bunch of better defensive players than Paxson, Kerr, etc will result in an equal/better defensive team and far superior offensive team





The Bulls get SIGNIFICANTLY worse swapping him out for the likes of Worthy & KJ.


Pippen's responsibility and performance was protected by MJ - Pippen can barely average 22 with everything perfect, let alone against the goat Celtics while shooting 64% like Worthy..... or winning fmvp..... or averaging 25+ like worthy did in many series

Similarly, Pippen can barely win 55 with a 3-peat system, let alone year-in-year-out like KJ, or while averaging 23/11 and beating Magic's 1 seeded Lakers... KJ averaged 22/11 in his sleep - that's better than Pippen

These guys were better than Pippen, and would've won more with MJ because the team would've been built differently with say, KJ instead of Pippen.. (bulls seek out cheaper defenders to surround KJ, rather than expensive offensive guys to surround pip)





By your rationale, Jordan & someone like Westbrook would've won more championships than Jordan & Pippen did


No, that's you inserting some player and saying i think mj would win with him

That's what your arguments have come to.. actually, that's what they've always been

Btw, of course MJ would win with Westbrook - Westbrook would be a goat defender just like Pippen was under Jordan, and far better offensive player... What are you smoking.. fkin russell Westbrook 30/10/10 is way better than Pippen.. probably even shoots better than pip

[3ball]

Posts like these makes me question if you actually understand basketball. Pippen is about as ideal a sidekick that Jordan could ask for. The Bulls get SIGNIFICANTLY worse swapping him out for the likes of Worthy & KJ. Their defense, Chicago's hallmark throughout their championships especially gets worse

By your rationale, Jordan & someone like Westbrook would've won more championships than Jordan & Pippen did
It's ideal to have mj score 33.5, or much more than anyone else in history?... While leading his team in assists for most playoff runs??

That's ideal to you?

It's ideal to have the #1 option score 10-20 more than the 2nd option in all Finals wins?? ... Your basketball knowledge tells you this is "ideal"?

Also, defenders are cheaper than offensive players - so it's easier to surround an offensive player with cheaper defenders, than surrounding a defender with expensive offensive players... so putting KJ into Pip's salary slot makes it easier to fill out the remaining team (cheap defenders over expensive shooters/scorers)

So you claim that Pip's defense was more valuable, but the Bulls could've largely replaced it while filling out the remaining roster easier, and KJ's positives are simply more impactful - i e. winning 55 games every year, getting 23/11 in his sleep, and beating Magic's 1 seed.. these things help MJ more

[sdot_thadon]

So you agree with Payton/Kemp, Robinson, and Penny

That's most of the guys I named.. and Drexler never played as horribly as 2nd three-peat Pippen

Regarding the others - ur a dumb robot that can't process nuance, so i don't expect you to think a short white guy could be as good as anyone that won 6 rings.. or any of the other guys and rationale that i mentioned...

I should type my responses to you in binary code so you can understand .. 00011110011100000111001010100001111.. you don't know basketball and obviously never picked up a ball in your life
.
Where in any of that did you gather I agreed with you in anyway. I actually reminded you that Pippen had more mvp votes than kemp and Payton combined that season. And you seem to be overlooking the fact Scottie was all nba AND all defensive 1st team that season as well. That's a different level of star no questions asked. Not to mention he made all nba at a forward spot ahead of Kemp that season if you need any further convincing. All of those guys you mentioned either for the most part:

weren't all nba level in the years stated

had less mvp votes

made all league a team below scottie

only made one of the all league teams while scottie made both.

It's rather hilarious to see you and the word nuance in the same sentence. Unintended self degradation I suppose. Stockton is not worse because Scottie won 6 rings, that's your bum ass logic. Scottie is percieved as better because he was able to be great without his 1st option. Malone and Stockton sort of needed each other to be great and their said greatness has a symbiotic quality to it. Scottie was an Mvp candidate on his own and led his own squad to contention after MJ's retirement. And of course John was a great in his own right, however I've never in all my years of basketball fandom EVER heard someone say they'd rather have Stockton over Pippen. Aside from that bullshit you just posted I'd wager I probably never will again. Quit hating on Pippen all the time. I swear you're Ish's resident dope fiend.:biggums:

[TheCorporation]

We saw Jordan in the Before & After Scottie Era

How many times must I punish you?


Before Scottie: 1-9
After Scottie: Made it out of the 1st round

https://i.postimg.cc/ZYXndcMX/neva_lost.jpg

MJ: NEVA LOST
Pip: Uh, before or AFTER I helped your ass out?

https://i.postimg.cc/pTx3wj6q/c03-webline-28.jpg

I gotchu baby gir, no more 1st round exits any more

https://i.postimg.cc/G3FLS380/Birmingham_Barons_1-9.png

https://i.postimg.cc/y8YXwmHj/1550957224619.jpg

[Vino24]

We saw Jordan in the Before & After Scottie Era

How many times must I punish you?


Before Scottie: 1-9
After Scottie: Made it out of the 1st round

https://i.postimg.cc/ZYXndcMX/neva_lost.jpg

MJ: NEVA LOST
Pip: Uh, before or AFTER I helped your ass out?

https://i.postimg.cc/pTx3wj6q/c03-webline-28.jpg

I gotchu baby gir, no more 1st round exits any more

https://i.postimg.cc/G3FLS380/Birmingham_Barons_1-9.png

https://i.postimg.cc/y8YXwmHj/1550957224619.jpg
:banana: :pimp:

[stalkerforlife]

OP schooling so many.

A pleasure to see him work.

[3ball]

Where in any of that did you gather I agreed with you in anyway.





Payton and Kemp were 2 2nd option level guys that were basically both Pippen level





At least Penny is a decent argument I'll give you that one. Even if it's a whole 2 year comparison





Mj never played Robinson in a game that mattered



So you agree with Payton/Kemp, Robinson, and Penny - the Robinson rebuttal above wasn't a disagreement..... :cheers:






Not to mention Pippen made all nba at a forward spot ahead of Kemp that season if you need any further convincing.


But it means nothing when Worthy makes all-nba in 1991 and pippen isn't even an all-star?

Gtfo dude..






I actually reminded you that Pippen had more mvp votes than kemp and Payton combined that season. And you seem to be overlooking the fact Scottie was all nba AND all defensive 1st team that season as well. That's a different level of star no questions asked.

weren't all nba level in the years stated

had less mvp votes

made all league a team below scottie

only made one of the all league teams while scottie made both.


As an example - Isiah and Magic said (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m33s) said that the Bulls were a 1-man team in 1993 - so people understood that Pippen got a lot of his accolades because he was the star lucky enough to be MJ's sidekick

It's no different than Pau not making all-nba until he'd won a bit with kobe..

So look bruh - if it wasn't Pippen, it would've been Kemp, or Robinson, or Penny - MJ wasn't going his whole career without playing with another star... Every big star gets to play with another star in their career, and MJ was no different...

Heck, a guy like Vin Baker was better than Pippen (1st team in 97') , but he needed MJ to get his head right.. Pippen was mentally fragile too, but MJ protected him and got his head right - otherwise Pippen could've had a career like Vin






It's rather hilarious to see you and the word nuance in the same sentence. Unintended self degradation I suppose. Stockton is not worse because Scottie won 6 rings, that's your bum ass logic. Scottie is percieved as better



Maybe Pippen is perceived as better than Stockton in sdot's bizzarro world, but not in the real world:


http://i67.tinypic.com/dbntvp.jpg


You simply overrate Pippen because you're too young to see what magic and Isiah described (bulls were a 1-man team)






Quit hating on Pippen all the time. I swear you're Ish's resident dope fiend.



So is this "hating", or just posting facts?



1988 PLAYOFFS:. 10.0 on 46.5%

1989 PLAYOFFS:. 13.1 on 46.2% (9.7 on 40.4% in ecf)

1990 ECF. vs. DET:. 16.6 on 42.8% (2 pts, 1-10 in game 7)

1992 ECSF vs NYN:. 16.0 on 40.2% (outplayed and bossed by X-man)

1994 ECSF vs NYN:. 21.7 on 40.5%

1995 ECSF vs ORL:. 19.0 on 40.9%

1996 ECSF vs NYN:. 15.6 on 33.0%
1996 FINAL vs SEA:. 15.7 on 34.3%

1997 RD 1 vs WAS:. 16.7 on 38.3%
1997 ECF. vs. MIA:. 16.8 on 41.7%

1998 ECFS vsN IND:. 16.6 on 39.2%
1998 FINAL vs UTA:. 15.7 on 41.0%


Yeah, there aren't ANY 2nd options that play better than that ^^^^^ ... :facepalm.. :rolleyes:

Pippen's stats during 96-98' playoffs - 17.6 on 40.8%

[3ball]

Reminder - MJ won 6 rings in the scenario that Kawhi and Lebron face right now: a 2-star vs. 2-star format

MJ and Paul George, I mean Pippen won 6 rings in today's environment and format

Indeed, the goat + any solid star = the goat twosome and goat ring count in a 2-star format

[RRR3]

3ball got destroyed in this thread.

[3ball]

3ball got destroyed in this thread.
Actually I destroyed everyone especially sdot, which is why I bumped it

I'm quite proud of the thread and the entire concept in general (MJ three-peated twice in today's 2-star format)

I guess if someone from today's game wants to match it, they'll have to get the goat PPG and efficiency rating like MJ (PER)... So it probably won't happen

[RRR3]

Actually I destroyed everyone especially sdot, which is why I bumped it

I'm quite proud of the thread and the entire concept in general (MJ three-peated twice in today's 2-star format)

I guess if someone from today's game wants to match it, they'll have to get the goat PPG and efficiency rating like MJ (PER)... So it probably won't happen
How come you never post this stuff on your samuraiswish account

[Smoke117]

MJ should have played Tennis. The way OP talks about him he might as well have. It's not like he won all 6 championships with top 30 all time Scottie Pippen in his prime or anything.

[SouBeachTalents]

MJ should have played Tennis. The way OP talks about him he might as well have. It's not like he won all 6 championships with top 30 all time Scottie Pippen or anything.
91-98' showed us that MJ + 18 ppg, garbage-shooting 2nd option (least offensive help ever) = goat dynasty

[3ball]

MJ should have played Tennis. The way OP talks about him he might as well have. It's not like he won all 6 championships with top 30 all time Scottie Pippen or anything.
If Kawhi wins 6 rings and 2 three-peats in today's 2-star format with Paul George (pippen), then everyone would say he's > Lebron easily, and on-par with MJ

So MJ's 6 rings in the 2-star 90's (2020 format) is goat, and that's why 538 said MJ's 6 rings was the most rings above expectation ever.

Heck, Lebron just teamed up with a top 3 player and possibly an all-time great and you're ready to make excuses for him if he loses!.... Dude.... MJ + Pippen = 6 rings... MJ + AD = unfathomable, because AD > Pippen on both ends by a mile..... The fact that it's not a LOCK in this 2-star format shows lebron is nowhere near MJ
.

[3ball]

2-star vs. 2-star format (90's format)

So MJ and Paul George (aka Pip) would win 6 rings in today's 90's format.

And don't tell me Rodman was a 3rd star because we've never looked at any 36-year old and considered them star-caliber at that age - Rodman averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' playoffs and wasn't even the starter in the 98' playoffs (4/8 in the 98' Finals).

Even if you want to consider Rodman a 3rd star, Jordan still 3-peated with a 2-star team from 91-93', while Lebron and Durant failed to 3-peat with 4 HOF teams in 2014 and 2019.. So Jordan 3-peats with 1 star teammate, while Lebron and Durant aren't capable of 3-peating with 3 other stars..



Lebron's 2nd option destroyed the Warriors' 1st option in 2016, so Lebron only overcame an actual talent deficit in 2007, which was less than what MJ overcame:



2007 Cavs:. #7 SRS.. 50 wins.. 2 seed
2007 tDET:. #6 SRS.. 53 wins.. 1 seed

1989 Bulls:. #10 SRS.. 47 wins.. 6 seed
1989 Cavs:. n#1 SRS.. 57 wins.. 3 seed

[RRR3]

Lebron's 2nd option destroyed the Warriors' 1st option in 2016, so Lebron only overcame an actual talent deficit in 2007, which was less than what MJ overcame:



2007 Cavs:. #7 SRS.. 50 wins.. 2 seed
2007 tDET:. #6 SRS.. 53 wins.. 1 seed

1989 Bulls:. #10 SRS.. 47 wins.. 6 seed
1989 Cavs:. n#1 SRS.. 57 wins.. 3 seed
LeBron molded Kyrie into a killer.

[3ball]

LeBron molded Kyrie into a killer.
Kyrie was the all-star MVP in 2014 before Lebron got there

So he was great before Lebron and wasn't molded from rookie stiff to HOF like Pippen.. Lebron can't develop guys like that because his style turns them into spot-up shooters, so he needs to team-hop for ready-made stars/teams

Ultimately, Lebron and Durant failed to three-peat with 4 HOF teams in 2014 and 2019.. whereas Jordan 3-peated with 1 star teammate (while Lebron and Durant weren't capable of 3-peating with 3 other stars)..
.

[Turbo Slayer]

Lebron will win MVP this year. No question about it.

[3ball]

Lebron will win MVP this year. No question about it.
Right, because the media decided this morning that they would give it to him (Stephen A announced it)

But AD is the one lifting the Lakers out of the lottery ashes of last season; he's the savior

Nonetheless, it's standard practice for the media to do dumb shit - this time they're gonna give the MVP to an old guy that already proved he lost his impact, and snub a young stud who is finding his impact and infact saved the Lakers

[Turbo Slayer]

Right, because the media decided this morning that they would give it to him (Stephen A announced it)

But AD is the one lifting the Lakers out of the lottery ashes of last season; he's the savior

Nonetheless, it's standard practice for the media to do dumb shit - this time they're gonna give the MVP to an old guy that already proved he lost his impact, over a young stud who is finding his impact and saved the Lakers
:applause: I'm just a youngblood.

LeMVP. :rockon:

[AirBonner]

Right, because the media decided this morning that they would give it to him (Stephen A announced it)

But AD is the one lifting the Lakers out of the lottery ashes of last season; he's the savior

Nonetheless, it's standard practice for the media to do dumb shit - this time they're gonna give the MVP to an old guy that already proved he lost his impact, and snub a young stud who is finding his impact and infact saved the Lakers
Why couldn

[3ball]

:applause: I'm just a youngblood.

LeMVP. :rockon:
He hasn't won it since 2013 and certainly won't be deserving after last season's lottery and AD saving them this year

So it's all a sham... WWE entertainment at this point

[Turbo Slayer]

[QUOTE=AirBonner]Why couldn

[3ball]

Why couldn’t AD win with a better New Orleans team? Jrue being better than old man LeBron and Rondo being better than Pippen?
Jrue isn't better than lebron obviously

That's where your analysis is obviously wrong

[Turbo Slayer]

He hasn't won it since 2013 and certainly won't be deserving after last season's lottery and AD saving them this year

So it's all a sham... WWE entertainment at this point
He won it in 2016 tho.

LeComeback.

3-1 comeback GOAT

:rockon:

[AirBonner]

Jrue isn't better than lebron obviously

That's where your analysis is obviously wrong
But Rondo is better than Pippen yes?

[Turbo Slayer]

But Rondo is better than Pippen yes?
3ball shook. :oldlol:

[3ball]

But Rondo is better than Pippen yes?
The part of your argument that was easily wrong was putting Jrue over Lebron - that was the biggest error that cratered your theory

Ultimately, AD is the one lifting the Lakers out of the lottery; he's the savior and the prime player, while old lebron hasn't been MVP in nearly 10 years.. its a pure sham to make him mvp again

[Turbo Slayer]

Hey bitch - if I catch you or anyone else from this loser ass board following me, I will beat you down in self defense. You will be in the hospital if I catch you following me as anyone that is following me I will deem a threat to my health

I've already filed police reports against your screen name and others I suspect. Im also getting restraining orders to ban the screen name from playing on the site where you outed yourself as my stalker

Don't let me catch you, you tiny tiny man. You'll be even tinier when I get done with you

:biggums:

[AirBonner]

The part of your argument that was easily wrong was putting Jrue over Lebron - that was the biggest error that cratered your theory

Ultimately, AD is the one lifting the Lakers out of the lottery; he's the savior and the prime player, while old lebron hasn't been MVP in nearly 10 years.. its a pure sham to make him mvp again
But what about Rondo being better than Pippen?

[Turbo Slayer]

Hey bitch - if I catch you or anyone else from this loser ass board following me, I will beat you down in self defense. You will be in the hospital if I catch you following me as anyone that is following me I will deem a threat to my health

I've already filed police reports against your screen name and others I suspect. Im also getting restraining orders to ban the screen name from playing on the site where you outed yourself as my stalker

Don't let me catch you, you tiny tiny man. You'll be even tinier when I get done with you

:biggums:

[3ball]

But what about Rondo being better than Pippen?
What years are we talking about

[AirBonner]

What years are we talking about
2010-2012 easily a better playmaker and overall defender than Pippen. That was pre-injury Rondo

[3ball]

3ball. :oldlol:


MJ played in a 2-star vs 2-star format, so those teams can't be compared to the 3-star vs. 3 star format that Lebron played in..

Lebron's big 3's mean that he only faced talent deficits in 07', 15', 17' and 18' Finals (losing mostly via sweep or record amount).. the only time he overcame a talent deficit was the 07' ECF, and MJ overcame bigger ones then that (see response below)

Furthermore, facing great teams doesn't prevent you from having great teams yourself that can compete EVENLY/adequately... But Lebron failed to compete adequately because he's 2-5 against the best teams of the era (Spurs/Warriors), including 2 sweeps and 2 record defeats.





3ball shook. :oldlol:


Lebron's 2nd option destroyed the Warriors' 1st option in 2016, so Lebron only overcame an actual talent deficit in 2007, which was less than and MJ overcame:



2007 Cavs:. #7 SRS.. 50 wins.. 2 seed
2007 tDET:. #6 SRS.. 53 wins.. 1 seed

1989 Bulls:. #10 SRS.. 47 wins.. 6 seed
1989 Cavs:. n#1 SRS.. 57 wins.. 3 seed

[Turbo Slayer]

What years are we talking about
Scottie career stats:
16.1 points, 5.2 asts, 47 FG perentage




Rondo career stats: 10.4 points, 8.5 asts, 46 FG percentage

[3ball]

Scottie career stats:
16.1 points, 5.2 asts, 47 FG perentage




Rondo career stats: 10.4 points, 8.5 asts, 46 FG percentage
We know that Pippen had a lot of horrific series of 15 on 35%, so there's many series where Rondo was better

But overall, Pippen is ranked higher and regarded as better because he's a forward/taller..... And the rings of course

But Rondo is more skilled as a pure player, not considering height or ring count

[Turbo Slayer]

The 2016 Cavs did overcome a talent deficit against the 2016 Warriors.

The Warrior SRS was 10.38 compared to the Cleveland Cavaliers' SRS which was 5.45.

Regular-season record: The Cavaliers were 0-2 against GSW.

In the Finals, they were down 3-1. No team in NBA history has come back from 3-1 in the NBA Finals.

The Warriors were HEAVY FAVORITES to win the Finals. Evidence: Las Vegas installed that GSW was 3-to-2 ie. HEAVY FAVORITES.

Lebron had no all-stars. GSW had 3 all-stars at that time.
It is the GOAT comeback in NBA history because odds were stacked against the Cavaliers. :bowdown:

[Rico2016]

I found out why

https://i.postimg.cc/MGR4Fm7m/GOATchipalltime.jpg

[Turbo Slayer]

The 2016 Cavs did overcome a talent deficit against the 2016 Warriors.

The Warrior SRS was 10.38 compared to the Cleveland Cavaliers' SRS which was 5.45.

Regular-season record: The Cavaliers were 0-2 against GSW.

In the Finals, they were down 3-1. No team in NBA history has come back from 3-1 in the NBA Finals.

The Warriors were HEAVY FAVORITES to win the Finals. Evidence: Las Vegas installed that GSW was 3-to-2 ie. HEAVY FAVORITES.

Lebron had no all-stars. GSW had 3 all-stars at that time.
It is the GOAT comeback in NBA history because odds were stacked against the Cavaliers. :bowdown:

Also, Curry MCL injury before that wasn't serious. Proof: Curry dropped 38 points in GM 6 of NBA Finals. Shows that Curry recovered quickly. Unfortunately, Curry choked in Game 7. Curry had the chance to put away the Cavs and failed even though Draymond was the leading scorer for that game.

[3ball]

The 2016 Cavs did overcome a talent deficit against the 2016 Warriors.

The Warrior SRS was 10.38 compared to the Cleveland Cavaliers' SRS which was 5.45.

Regular-season record: The Cavaliers were 0-2 against GSW.

In the Finals, they were down 3-1. No team in NBA history has come back from 3-1 in the NBA Finals.

The Warriors were HEAVY FAVORITES to win the Finals. Evidence: Las Vegas installed that GSW was 3-to-2 ie. HEAVY FAVORITES.

Lebron had no all-stars. GSW had 3 all-stars at that time.
It is the GOAT comeback in NBA history because odds were stacked against the Cavaliers. :bowdown:
both teams had 3 perennial all-stars - the Cavs were underdogs because they underperformed this equal talent with only 57 wins vs the warriors' 73 wins

And the comeback was Lebron's fault for only getting 24 and 6 TO for the first 4 games (3-1 deficit)... Then he produced Jordan's 91-93' Finals stats to win the last 3 games: 36 and 3 TO

Finally, Lebron's 2nd option helped just as much (same scoring average as Lebron), whereas MJ had an ACTUAL carry-job in 1993 (20 more than 2nd option), while averaging 11 more than lebron in a slower-paced series...

It's no comparison, but the media must make money on Lebron, so they overrate him

[Turbo Slayer]

both teams had 3 perennial all-stars - the Cavs were underdogs because they underperformed this equal talent with only 57 wins vs the warriors' 73 wins

And the comeback was Lebron's fault for only getting 24 and 6 TO for the first 4 games (3-1 deficit)... Then he produced Jordan's 91-93' Finals stats to win the last 3 games: 36 and 3 TO

Finally, Lebron's 2nd option helped just as much (same scoring average as Lebron), whereas MJ had an ACTUAL carry-job in 1993 (20 more than 2nd option), while averaging 11 more than lebron in a slower-paced series...

It's no comparison, but the media must make money on Lebron, so they overrate him

3ball, let me ask you a question. Don't bring any of that copy-pasted BS here.

Even you are a Lebron hater would you agree that it's one of the greatest comebacks in NBA history?

[3ball]

3ball, let me ask you a question. Don't bring any of that copy-pasted BS here.

Even you are a Lebron hater would you agree that it's one of the greatest comebacks in NBA history?
It's one of the best comebacks, but instead of waiting until the last 3 games to average 36 ppg and 3 TO, why not average that from the first game, like MJ for the whole 91-93' Finals?

Then Lebron would win easier, thus being MORE dominant then he actually was in 2016

Comebacks = less dominance, not more

[Rico2016]

It's one of the best comebacks, but instead of waiting until the last 3 games to average 36 ppg and 3 TO, why not average that from the first game, like MJ for the whole 91-93' Finals?

Then Lebron would win easier, thus being MORE dominant then he actually was in 2016

Comebacks = less dominance, not more

Imagine facing a team with more talent..

LBJ = 3-1 BOOM
MJ = 1-9 YIKES

[Manny98]

It's one of the best comebacks, but instead of waiting until the last 3 games to average 36 ppg and 3 TO, why not average that from the first game, like MJ for the whole 91-93' Finals?

Then Lebron would win easier, thus being MORE dominant then he actually was in 2016

Comebacks = less dominance, not more
Because he was playing the GOAT team not those bum ass 90s teams that MJ played against

[3ball]

not those bum ass 90s teams that MJ played against


MJ played in a 2-star vs 2-star format, so those teams can't be compared to the 3-star vs. 3 star format that Lebron played in.. But if we gave MJ and his opponents a 3rd star, they would blow today's big 3's away

Lebron's big 3's mean that he only faced actual talent deficits in 07', 15', 17' and 18' Finals (losing mostly via sweep or record amount, so the worst anyone could do)..

the only time he overcame an actual talent deficit was the 07' ECF, and MJ overcame bigger ones then that (see response below)





bum ass 90s teams



2007 Cavs:. #7 SRS.. 50 wins.. 2 seed
2007 tDET:. #6 SRS.. 53 wins.. 1 seed

1989 Bulls:. #10 SRS.. 47 wins.. 6 seed
1989 Cavs:. n#1 SRS.. 57 wins.. 3 seed





Because he was playing the GOAT team


So win totals = goat team?... :biggums:

That means Dwight Howard, Baron Davis and others > MJ because they beat 66 wins teams... :kobe:

So the whole "beat a XX-win team" argument has never been a good one

Ultimately, a core that is 8-10 on the championship level simply isn't the goat team, nor would a series win over the goat team make anyone the goat..

The best argument for goat is winning 2 three-peats in the modern era (and with only 1 all-star teammate).... Otoh, Lebron failed to 3-peat with 3 HOF teammates in 14'... Ditto Curry in 19'.... And Shaq only got 1 three-peat despite having Kobe

[Rico2016]

Imagine facing a team with more talent..

LBJ = 3-1 BOOM
MJ = 1-9 YIKES

...

[3ball]

bump

MJ won 6 rings with a weaker-scoring Paul George as his sidekick

so he won 6 rings in today's format with a much worse cast than the clippers, and against mostly better (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=472146) big 2's than Lebron faces this year

[Shaquille O'Neal]

'Tis True. Jordan was the GOAT obviously.


We should be taking about who's really #2-#5.


I have:


KAJ #2 (Due to 6 rings, 6 MVPs, college wins


Magic #3


I'd say Wilt #4


Maybe Lebron at #5? I generally don't put dude with 6 finals losses in the top 10 though.

[And1AllDay]

'Tis True. Jordan was the GOAT obviously.


We should be taking about who's really #2-#5.


I have:


KAJ #2 (Due to 6 rings, 6 MVPs, college wins


Magic #3


I'd say Wilt #4


Maybe Lebron at #5? I generally don't put dude with 6 finals losses in the top 10 though.

easy way to end goat discussion with mike jordan because hes a fraud

what was his best ring? :oldlol: :oldlol:

[greymatter]

2-star vs. 2-star format (90's format)

So MJ and Paul George (aka Pip) would win 6 rings in today's 90's format.

And don't tell me Rodman was a 3rd star because we've never looked at any 36-year old and considered them star-caliber at that age - Rodman averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' playoffs and wasn't even the starter in the 98' playoffs (4/8 in the 98' Finals).

Even if you want to consider Rodman a 3rd star, Jordan still 3-peated with a 2-star team from 91-93', while Lebron and Durant failed to 3-peat with 4 HOF teams in 2014 and 2019.. So Jordan 3-peats with 1 star teammate, while Lebron and Durant aren't capable of 3-peating with 3 other stars..

Ordan and Pippen were 2nd round playoff fodder without Grant or Rodman.

Ordan failed to make 2 straight playoffs in a Leastern Conference where the #1 seeds had only 50 and 52Ws.

[And1AllDay]

Ordan and Pippen were 2nd round playoff fodder without Grant or Rodman.

Ordan failed to make 2 straight playoffs in a Leastern Conference where the #1 seeds had only 50 and 52Ws.


shut. it. down.

['Toine=MVP]

2-star vs. 2-star format (90's format)

So MJ and Paul George (aka Pip) would win 6 rings in today's 90's format.

And don't tell me Rodman was a 3rd star because we've never looked at any 36-year old and considered them star-caliber at that age - Rodman averaged 4/8 for the entire 97' playoffs and wasn't even the starter in the 98' playoffs (4/8 in the 98' Finals).

Even if you want to consider Rodman a 3rd star, Jordan still 3-peated with a 2-star team from 91-93', while Lebron and Durant failed to 3-peat with 4 HOF teams in 2014 and 2019.. So Jordan 3-peats with 1 star teammate, while Lebron and Durant aren't capable of 3-peating with 3 other stars..

Sorry but Pip wasn't a superstar.

[3ball]

2-star Lakers vs 0-star Heat

:applause:... nice job LeFake goat



09' Cavs..... #1 SRS.... #3 defense.. 18 on 38% from Mo.. lost #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
89' Bulls... #10 SRS.. #11 defense.. 15 on 40% from Pip.. beat #1 SRS Cavs (3 all-stars*)

* plus 20/5/5 Ron Harper


^^^ don't be surprised - lebron never beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with weak scoring and efficiency from his sidekick, aka he never had a carry-job against a good team.. only mj did (see above).. he did that 5 times (5 carry-jobs against good teams)

[Gray GOAT]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FeistyWeeClam-small.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FeistyWeeClam-small.gif
:roll:

[GrayGoat]

Kawhi lost with a stronger Pippen. Kawhi and George is equal to MJ and Pippen. MJ bulls are a 2nd round exit in modern basketball

[1987_Lakers]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FeistyWeeClam-small.gif

:roll:

[3ball]

:roll:

6 > 4 (and only 3 as the best player)

6/15 > 4/17

and 1 all-star teammate is less help then 8... (zydrunas, mo, love bosh, wade, kyrie, jamison, AD)

[1987_Lakers]

6 > 4 (and only 3 as the best player)

6/15 > 4/17

and 1 all-star teammate is less help then 8... (zydrunas, mo, love bosh, wade, kyrie, jamison, AD)

LeBron was runner up MVP this year, good luck trying to convince people this is a sidekick ring. :oldlol:

[Shooter]

LeBron was runner up MVP this year, good luck trying to convince people this is a sidekick ring. :oldlol:

:lol

Also this:

https://i.postimg.cc/8C4kvxLC/pip-an-mj-post.jpg

MJ did nothing on his own.

[3ball]

:lol

Also this:

https://i.postimg.cc/8C4kvxLC/pip-an-mj-post.jpg

MJ did nothing on his own.

he clearly carried the scoring load

whereas lebron shares the scoring load (tiny margins over kyrie/wade, while AD actually leads him)

and he shares the other categories like blocks and steals (tiny margins), just like Jordan

assists don't matter because assists are a team decision to let 1 guy dominate the ball (nash, lebron,:etc), or move the ball (curry, parker, jordan).. infact, the 5-7 apg level wins the most

[Manny98]

6 > 4 (and only 3 as the best player)

6/15 > 4/17

and 1 all-star teammate is less help then 8... (zydrunas, mo, love bosh, wade, kyrie, jamison, AD)

MJ has more rings, but LeBron has played a more impressive selection of teams in the finals and shits on MJ in longevity stats

https://i.postimg.cc/jjJ7CXwP/28ab9da.jpg

[AussieSteve]

he clearly carried the scoring load

whereas lebron shares the scoring load (tiny margins over kyrie/wade, while AD actually leads him)

and he shares the other categories like blocks and steals (tiny margins), just like Jordan

assists don't matter because assists are a team decision to let 1 guy dominate the ball (nash, lebron,:etc), or move the ball (curry, parker, jordan).. infact, the 5-7 apg level wins the most

When you say assists don't matter because it's a team decision to let someone dominate the ball, do you realise how stupid you sound?

How many buckets did AD score in game 1 because it was a team decision to run a pay that finished with him getting an easy basket or trip to the line. LeBron orchestrates the plays. Whether he gets the assist or not he's running the offense.

AD is ATG at finishing plays. No doubt. ATG. He's also very very good at creating his own shot, but most of his points come from plays that finish with him. The team executes them and he is the beneficiary.

Case in point... 9 of his 11 field goals were assisted in game 1.

Who is more important, the guy who make a the perfect lob pass, or the guy who catches it one foot from the basket and puts it in?

[red1]

OP's worst nightmare is about to come true - another ring for leGOAT


he's crying guys.

[Shooter]

When you say assists don't matter because it's a team decision to let someone dominate the ball, do you realise how stupid you sound?

How many buckets did AD score in game 1 because it was a team decision to run a pay that finished with him getting an easy basket or trip to the line. LeBron orchestrates the plays. Whether he gets the assist or not he's running the offense.

AD is ATG at finishing plays. No doubt. ATG. He's also very very good at creating his own shot, but most of his points come from plays that finish with him. The team executes them and he is the beneficiary.

Case in point... 9 of his 11 field goals were assisted in game 1.

Who is more important, the guy who make a the perfect lob pass, or the guy who catches it one foot from the basket and puts it in?

Body Bag Steve

RIP 3ball

[Roundball_Rock]

OP's worst nightmare is about to come true - another ring for leGOAT


he's crying guys.

:lol


When you say assists don't matter because it's a team decision to let someone dominate the ball, do you realise how stupid you sound?

How many buckets did AD score in game 1 because it was a team decision to run a pay that finished with him getting an easy basket or trip to the line. LeBron orchestrates the plays. Whether he gets the assist or not he's running the offense.

AD is ATG at finishing plays. No doubt. ATG. He's also very very good at creating his own shot, but most of his points come from plays that finish with him. The team executes them and he is the beneficiary.

Case in point... 9 of his 11 field goals were assisted in game 1.

Who is more important, the guy who make a the perfect lob pass, or the guy who catches it one foot from the basket and puts it in?

Good post.

Stains like 1-9ball don't understand basketball. All they grasp is PPG. If they were true MJ fans, they would realize the importance of having a facilitator, which was painfully exposed as the Bulls' offense was not even top 10 without that skill for the half of 98' Pippen was out (and not even top 20 without him in 94').