I don't think it's even possible that anyone will ever surpass Jordan...

[stalkerforlife]

Like...

It's not possible.

AAU ball and the focus on athleticism rather than skill.
Team hopping.
Playing with friends.
Brand motivation rather than competitiveness.
Softer mentalities due to privilege and opportunity.
Injuries due to PED usage.
Longer first rounds and extra mileage from playing AAU year round.
Lack of street hunger due to improved lifestyles for minorities.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.

It's just not possible.

No player will ever overtake Jordan.

[Vino24]

LeBron already did baby boy. 2016 was the takeover

[stalkerforlife]

And I don't recall a time when seemingly every season had devastating injuries that impacted the league so much.

Seemingly every year we miss out on a true battle for the title because of injuries.

The mileage and PED usage and lifestyles of these players lead to devastating injuries every single year.

Players like Simmons would rather shack up with Kardashian girls than improve their game.

The denigration of American society has destroyed the possibility of Jordan ever being eclipsed.

[Vino24]

Kevin love concussions and all LeGirth rose from the ashes

[stalkerforlife]

LeBron already did baby boy. 2016 was the takeover

See what I mean?

Kids these days care more about attention through trolling than they do the game.

The denigration of our society makes it impossible to surpass Jordan.

[ShawkFactory]

And I don't recall a time when seemingly every season had devastating injuries that impacted the league so much.

Seemingly every year we miss out on a true battle for the title because of injuries.

The mileage and PED usage and lifestyles of these players lead to devastating injuries every single year.

Players like Simmons would rather shack up with Kardashian girls than improve their game.

The denigration of American society has destroyed the possibility of Jordan ever being eclipsed.
The rate of “devastating” injuries isn’t really any greater than before.

In the last 10 years there’s probably 4 years where the outcomes have been drastically affected by a key injury (2019, 2018, 2015, and 2009).

And even then only 2 directly affected an opponent of the other in the finals.

In the decade before that it happened maybe 3 times as well (wade in 07, Duncan in 00, Ewing in 99).

Things like this have happened pretty consistently and they’re usually just freak injuries.

I don’t necessarily disagree about the rest tho

[SouBeachTalents]

See what I mean?

Kids these days care more about attention through trolling than they do the game.

The denigration of our society makes it impossible to surpass Jordan.
That's definitely not what you were trying to say :oldlol: Probably mean degeneration or degradation

[paksat]

jordan won't be passed just based on the fact that guy ain't human, alien/angel/demon/God idc that guy is NOT human

secondly, testosterone levels have fallen so far that it'll never happen.

[theaussieguy]

You are 100% spot on imo. Kids these days growing up more privileged yet somehow more self-righteous about the fact they are not just athletes. Programming their strength and athlecism with peds in the gym, not in tough training sessions or 1v1s in the old days. Players creating youtube channels trying to be modern day renaissance men in a time of societal, cultural and artistic denigration just like you referred to. Jordan was the result of a perfect storm.

[stalkerforlife]

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]The rate of

[Vino24]

2010 Perkins injury.

Not a star, but could've helped Boston beat LA.

Bynum 2008 could've helped LA beat Boston.

Jameer Nelson healthy could've helped Magic in 09.

Seems like every year.
you conveniently leave out injuries for the other teams as well. Did Cavs not have injuries?

[bullettooth]

LeBron already did baby boy. 2016 was the takeover

:lol Delusional. Nice try.

[stalkerforlife]

You are 100% spot on imo. Kids these days growing up more privileged yet somehow more self-righteous about the fact they are not just athletes. Programming their strength and athlecism with peds in the gym, not in tough training sessions or 1v1s in the old days. Players creating youtube channels trying to be modern day renaissance men in a time of societal, cultural and artistic denigration just like you referred to. Jordan was the result of a perfect storm.

Perfect storm is a perfect way to put it.

It'll take a miracle for everything to align that way again.

I don't see it.

[stalkerforlife]

you conveniently leave out injuries for the other teams as well. Did Cavs not have injuries?

2015 is a given.

Get that man out of your head.

Goodness.

You think more about him than people you know personally.

This is another reason...

The age of the offended could never muster the greatness needed to eclipse Jordan.

[ShawkFactory]

2010 Perkins injury.

Not a star, but could've helped Boston beat LA.

Bynum 2008 could've helped LA beat Boston.

Jameer Nelson healthy could've helped Magic in 09.

Seems like every year.
You could mention minor players literally every year in the NBAs exisistence. They play 82 games in the regular season. Teams who make it deep into the playoffs play 100+. Someone on both teams will be banged up.

And the big ones to key guys have been pretty consistent over time

[Vino24]

MJ's competition was absolute shit compared to todays teams. Sorry but MJ is overrated as fvck.

[stalkerforlife]

You could mention minor players literally every year in the NBAs exisistence. They play 82 games in the regular season. Teams who make it deep into the playoffs play 100+. Someone on both teams will be banged up.

And the big ones to key guys have been pretty consistent over time

Hayward's injury ruined a potential title team.

Rose's injuries ruined a potential champion.

Penny Hardaway.

Grant Hill.

Yao.

McGrady.

Oladipo.

Porzingis.

Brandon Roy.

Dwight.

Arenas.

There's a lot.

[Smoke117]

That's definitely not what you were trying to say :oldlol: Probably mean degeneration or degradation

Lay off, bro. He barely has a 9th grade education.

[stalkerforlife]

MJ's competition was absolute shit compared to todays teams. Sorry but MJ is overrated as fvck.

Troll generation.

No authenticity.

Less attention from parents.

Hot take specials.

Attention seeking.

The degradation of American society makes it impossible to eclipse Jordan.

They're only getting worse.

[ShawkFactory]

Hayward's injury ruined a potential title team.

Rose's injuries ruined a potential champion.

Penny Hardaway.

Grant Hill.

Yao.

McGrady.

Oladipo.

Porzingis.

Brandon Roy.

Dwight.

Arenas.

There's a lot.
I think you now seem to be...agreeing with me?

You

[stalkerforlife]

[QUOTE=ShawkFactory]I think you now seem to be...agreeing with me?

You

[stalkerforlife]

No, not half.

Check the timeline.

Most fairly recent.

Within ten years.

But even if over ten years, that's still recent.

From Jordan retirement on.

[tpols]

Lay off, bro. He barely has a 9th grade education.


and what are you sm0ke, community college?

you simpleton.

[Smoke117]

Someone always comes around better. That's just life. It's going to be hard for said player to be recognized, though, because of this near deity level worship that has built up around Jordan.

[ShawkFactory]

But even if over ten years, that's still recent.

From Jordan retirement on.
You could do the same for the 80s.

I could just mention only the biggest stars of the decade.

Obviously Bird.

Magic and Isiah both were injured in the playoffs during their peaks.

If you examine it further I

[Spurs m8]

It's highly unlikely for sure.

The fact that apparently Bron is the closest thing, really speaks volumes on the debate.

[Vino24]

The thing about LeGod and all gods is you have to have belief. Op doesn

[stalkerforlife]

[QUOTE=Vino24]The thing about LeGod and all gods is you have to have belief. Op doesn

[Vino24]

Why do you hate yourself?

We're all strangers here.

Talk about specifics.
73 win team. Unanimous mvp. 3-1 deficit. Leading everyone in everything. This all happened in one series

[StrongLurk]

That's the thing, MJ isn't just a GOAT...he is in the Babe Ruth, Wayne Gretzy category.

GOAT of GOATS

[Vino24]

That's the thing, MJ isn't just a GOAT...he is in the Babe Ruth, Wayne Gretzy category.

GOAT of GOATS
He never had goat series like LeBron

[paksat]

73 win team. Unanimous mvp. 3-1 deficit. Leading everyone in everything. This all happened in one series

and no one cares

moving on..

[StrongLurk]

He never had goat series like LeBron

You know that's not true.

[Vino24]

You know that's not true.
Finals are the defining moment. What finals series does MJ have that compares to LeBron

[paksat]

You know that's not true.

mj averaged like 40+ in some playoff series yet simon over here rolling off his wheels that his obsession can't keep up

you go to england, ask random people who lebron james is bet half don't know

you go to the middle of fcking sudan or yemen and pull up to some guy riding a camel and ask him if he knows who MJ is and he'll look at you funny and pull out his bulls jersey

but w/e

[GimmeThat]

empty chat absorbs a lot of empty stats

[3ball]

Finals are the defining moment. What finals series does MJ have that compares to LeBron’s 2016?
41 ppg and fmvp.. that's the goat stats to win a Finals.. pace was only 85

97' had the most heroics (3 game-winners or gw assists)

92' beat the most talent (the same blazer team was so stacked that they made 90' Finals with Clyde at 3rd option getting 18 ppg for the first 3 rounds)

98' was the most legendary.. or maybe 91'

[Gus Hemmingway]

41 ppg and fmvp.. that's the goat stats to win a Finals.. pace was only 85

97' had the most heroics (3 game-winners or gw assists)

But only 6 rebounds and 4 assists, plus he shot sub-47% from the field.

So its not even as good as LeBrons 2011 Finals, where he averaged 7 rebounds and 7 assists, while shooting 47% from the field

[Vino24]

41 ppg and fmvp.. that's the goat stats to win a Finals.. pace was only 85

97' had the most heroics (3 game-winners or gw assists)

92' beat the most talent (the same blazer team was so stacked that they made 90' Finals with Clyde at 3rd option getting 18 ppg for the first 3 rounds)

98' was the most legendary.. or maybe 91'
Welcome back from retirement baby boy :applause: what were MJ

[Vino24]

But only 6 rebounds and 4 assists, plus he shot sub-47% from the field.

So its not even as good as LeBrons 2011 Finals, where he averaged 7 rebounds and 7 assists, while shooting 47% from the field
Quick draw Gus shutting 3retirements down :rockon:

[3ball]

But only 6 rebounds and 4 assists, plus he shot sub-47% from the field.

So its not even as good as LeBrons 2011 Finals, where he averaged 7 rebounds and 7 assists, while shooting 47% from the field
MJ led all players by a big margin in the most important category, while lebron led by tiny amounts in a couple lesser categories.

So advantage MJ.. MJ also has the better defensive record and rep in the Finals..

meanwhile, lebron never had multiple playoff runs with less than 3 turnovers per game, or 80% FT, or timely scoring (great mid-range)

It's funny because he's taller/bigger, but he needs EXTRA time to score/set up his man, as if he's a little guy.. he isn't a mid-range assassin that hits repeated contested jumpers - lebron can't just go up on his man for a contested shot like MJ could.
.

[3ball]

MJ has the most rings ever at 3-pointer basketball

infact, he utterly rules 3-pointer basketball with 6 rings (next guy has 4), 6 fmvp's (next guy has 3), scoring titles (10), and Efficiency Rating (#1 all-time)

[SouBeachTalents]

MJ has the most rings ever at 3-pointer basketball

infact, he utterly rules 3-pointer basketball with 6 rings (next guy has 4), 6 fmvp's (next guy has 3), scoring titles (10), and Efficiency Rating (#1 all-time)
Idk bout that bruh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsjukb2NttM

[Vino24]

Idk bout that bruh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsjukb2NttM
poor 3ball still getting destroyed in retirement :oldlol:

[Spurs m8]

mj averaged like 40+ in some playoff series yet simon over here rolling off his wheels that his obsession can't keep up

you go to england, ask random people who lebron james is bet half don't know

you go to the middle of fcking sudan or yemen and pull up to some guy riding a camel and ask him if he knows who MJ is and he'll look at you funny and pull out his bulls jersey

but w/e

hahahah so fvcking true

Even my mom wouldn't know who LeBron James is.

Easily knows Jordan

On court and off court, Jordan was in a league of his own.

Thats the hilarious thing about these kids....they literally have no idea how big Jordan was...they can't fathom because theres nothing like that to compare it to

[LAmbruh]

LeBron already did baby boy. 2016 was the takeover
first reply slays are the best :applause:

[Smoke117]

hahahah so fvcking true

Even my mom wouldn't know who LeBron James is.

Easily knows Jordan

On court and off court, Jordan was in a league of his own.

Thats the hilarious thing about these kids....they literally have no idea how big Jordan was...they can't fathom because theres nothing like that to compare it to

Popularity doesn't equate to being better you moron. You aren't even american and basketball isn't half as popular outside the USA as it is here. Jordan is certainly better and greater than LeBron, but that has nothing to do with popularity you fukking child.

[3ball]

.
Since 3-pointer basketball began:


Accomplishments/Stats/Accolades

Most rings
Most MVP's
Most FMVP's
#1 in PPG and Efficiency Rating
Only 30/5/5 player ever (career average)


Comp

- 40 ppg vs Bird Celtics in 86' and 87' > Lebron's 34 vs KD-Warriors in 17/18
- Beating the Bad Boys (b2b champs) > Beating Curry's Warriors (1-2 in Finals)
- 41/9/6 in 93' Finals and a huge 14-pt lead over everyone in most important category > Lebron's 16' Finals and tiny edges in less important categories



Bye

[ScalsFan21]

But you called 3 point basketball a gimmick, among other things. I just saw it when I was looking for a thread to bump from 2016. :lol

[3ball]

But you called 3 point basketball a gimmick, among other things. I just saw it when I was looking for a thread to bump from 2016. :lol
MJ would've been even better in Kareem/Wilt's 2-pointer era

Nonetheless, MJ has:

Most rings in 3-pointer-basketball
Most MVP's in 3-pointer-basketball
Most FMVP's
#1 in PPG and Efficiency Rating
Only 30/5/5 player ever (career average)


Comp

- 40 ppg vs Bird Celtics in 86' and 87' > Lebron's 34 vs KD-Warriors in 17/18
- Beating the Bad Boys (b2b champs) > Beating Curry's Warriors (1-2 in Finals)
- 41/9/6 in 93' Finals and a huge 14-pt lead over everyone in most important category > Lebron's 16' Finals and tiny edges in less important categories



Bye



But you called 3 point basketball a gimmick, among other things. I just saw it when I was looking for a thread to bump from 2016. :lol
Btw, MJ was good at threes anytime it mattered - 35.2% on 2.2 attempts in 85-93' Playoffs.. 39% on 3.8 attempts in 91-93' Playoffs.. 43% on 4.1 attempts in 91-93' Finals

Or anytime he tried - he attempted less than 1.5 attempts every year except 90' and 93', when he took 3+ attempts at 38% and 35%.


That's without practicing - just goat form and touch

[robby712]

No one will ever have the same aura that Jordan has. Ever.
Basketball-wise, there are players you can make a case for. Career-wise, the same.

What people seem to miss is the fact that Jordan played in the best era ever for building a legend status. The 80s-90s was the time when the league became more popular, games were more accessible to casual viewers on TV, but to an extent. Plus, there was no internet back then so no social media.
He was the greatest player in the most convenient era, who benefited for being drafted by the right team and playing in a great system, with great players and a great coach.
I am not trying to take anything away from him, he was amazing, he had great fundamentals, great footwork, trained like no-one else and had a will to win which was only matched by few in history.

However, if he played today, he would be seen differently. He would probably act differently.

Back then, as a casual fan, you could only see Jordan play a couple of times a year. Hell, you could only see great players play a couple of times a year. It's normal to be more impressed when you see greatness. Now, you can watch hours and hours of highlights of all the best players in the world with just a few clicks. Also, no social media so no haters, no critique, no viral video of Jordan flopping ( all the great players flopped and complained to refs ), of Jordan missing game-winners, etc.
Do you really think players back then were hating each other and played hard and didn't team up because of they were tougher? No, it's because they didn't have any personal relationship with each other. They met a few times per year, no Twitter or IG or FB to get closer to someone playing thousands of miles away from you.

Jordan would be slaughtered in the media now for his off the court behavior, partying, gambling, punching players in training etc. He would be slaughtered for losing to the Pistons so many times, for checking his stats to get triple doubles, he would be called a selfish player that doesn't lift his teammates. People would talk about how Pippen should be FVPM, how he shot X of XX and played like shit in Game X of the Finals, how the refs and league helped him get away with a push for a game winning shot, how GP locked him up in the Finals. Not to even mention his retirement, the death of his father etc.

So yeah, it's not possible for anyone to surpass Jordan but not for basketball reasons.

[stalkerforlife]

No one will ever have the same aura that Jordan has. Ever.
Basketball-wise, there are players you can make a case for. Career-wise, the same.

What people seem to miss is the fact that Jordan played in the best era ever for building a legend status. The 80s-90s was the time when the league became more popular, games were more accessible to casual viewers on TV, but to an extent. Plus, there was no internet back then so no social media.
He was the greatest player in the most convenient era, who benefited for being drafted by the right team and playing in a great system, with great players and a great coach.
I am not trying to take anything away from him, he was amazing, he had great fundamentals, great footwork, trained like no-one else and had a will to win which was only matched by few in history.

However, if he played today, he would be seen differently. He would probably act differently.

Back then, as a casual fan, you could only see Jordan play a couple of times a year. Hell, you could only see great players play a couple of times a year. It's normal to be more impressed when you see greatness. Now, you can watch hours and hours of highlights of all the best players in the world with just a few clicks. Also, no social media so no haters, no critique, no viral video of Jordan flopping ( all the great players flopped and complained to refs ), of Jordan missing game-winners, etc.
Do you really think players back then were hating each other and played hard and didn't team up because of they were tougher? No, it's because they didn't have any personal relationship with each other. They met a few times per year, no Twitter or IG or FB to get closer to someone playing thousands of miles away from you.

Jordan would be slaughtered in the media now for his off the court behavior, partying, gambling, punching players in training etc. He would be slaughtered for losing to the Pistons so many times, for checking his stats to get triple doubles, he would be called a selfish player that doesn't lift his teammates. People would talk about how Pippen should be FVPM, how he shot X of XX and played like shit in Game X of the Finals, how the refs and league helped him get away with a push for a game winning shot, how GP locked him up in the Finals. Not to even mention his retirement, the death of his father etc.

So yeah, it's not possible for anyone to surpass Jordan but not for basketball reasons.

No.

Thanks, though.

You can go back to your hole now

[Reggie43]

No one will ever have the same aura that Jordan has. Ever.
Basketball-wise, there are players you can make a case for. Career-wise, the same.

What people seem to miss is the fact that Jordan played in the best era ever for building a legend status. The 80s-90s was the time when the league became more popular, games were more accessible to casual viewers on TV, but to an extent. Plus, there was no internet back then so no social media.
He was the greatest player in the most convenient era, who benefited for being drafted by the right team and playing in a great system, with great players and a great coach.
I am not trying to take anything away from him, he was amazing, he had great fundamentals, great footwork, trained like no-one else and had a will to win which was only matched by few in history.

However, if he played today, he would be seen differently. He would probably act differently.

Back then, as a casual fan, you could only see Jordan play a couple of times a year. Hell, you could only see great players play a couple of times a year. It's normal to be more impressed when you see greatness. Now, you can watch hours and hours of highlights of all the best players in the world with just a few clicks. Also, no social media so no haters, no critique, no viral video of Jordan flopping ( all the great players flopped and complained to refs ), of Jordan missing game-winners, etc.
Do you really think players back then were hating each other and played hard and didn't team up because of they were tougher? No, it's because they didn't have any personal relationship with each other. They met a few times per year, no Twitter or IG or FB to get closer to someone playing thousands of miles away from you.

Jordan would be slaughtered in the media now for his off the court behavior, partying, gambling, punching players in training etc. He would be slaughtered for losing to the Pistons so many times, for checking his stats to get triple doubles, he would be called a selfish player that doesn't lift his teammates. People would talk about how Pippen should be FVPM, how he shot X of XX and played like shit in Game X of the Finals, how the refs and league helped him get away with a push for a game winning shot, how GP locked him up in the Finals. Not to even mention his retirement, the death of his father etc.

So yeah, it's not possible for anyone to surpass Jordan but not for basketball reasons.

Interesting post. Now I remember why I stayed away from this site for a few years :lol

[Spurs m8]

Popularity doesn't equate to being better you moron. You aren't even american and basketball isn't half as popular outside the USA as it is here. Jordan is certainly better and greater than LeBron, but that has nothing to do with popularity you fukking child.

That's why I wrote ON AND OFF THE COURT....you micro p3nis

[Gileraracer]

LeBron already did baby boy. 2016 was the takeover

3 rings with 2 superteams and 3 missed playoffs do not qualify you for GOAT

[egokiller]

After watching lebron all these years I must say it’s been very mediocre compared to watching MJ. When you take the entire big picture into account, Lebron really is nothing compared to GOAT MJ. This is why it gets so comical when kids get all excited watching lebron. They think they are actually seeing something when they aren’t due to limited perspective. Must be hard knowing the best you saw was a 6 time loser compared to those who saw a 6 time winner.

[90sgoat]

Very high IQ thread by OP.

There's a time for everything to peak and basketball has peaked and will never be as good again as the 80s and 90s.

It's like how you'll never have the 60s and 70s in boxing again. People just don't want to get punched in the face for money anymore.

You'll never have a Mozart or a Beethoven, you couldn't find a stonemason to recreate the old masters of Rome.

Things change, basketball peaked, those of us who watched MJ were lucky, we got to see a timeless genius.

[Manny98]

I didn't think it was possible either until LeGod came along

['Toine=MVP]

So while there might be some small nugget of truth to what robby said about how he might be viewed if faced with the scrutiny of today, it is fairly irrelevant to the greatness debate. And it is the very thing that LeBron stans do not understand. At all.

The greatness debate is not a debate about who has the most talent. It isn't about popularity either, but it is largely about impact on the sport, because raising up the sport, and to a lesser but still important extent, being a quasi mythological type figure in the game (at the time you are playing), are the things that separate GREAT players from very very good/talented/skilled players that might have big statistical OR championship accomplishments.

Greatness is something else. You can't find it in the box scores or the ring count. It is why an all time ranking that extends much past the top 10 ends up looking sort of odd and silly in a way, because the guys outside the top 10 (and even at the back end of the top 10) weren't really the same kinds of legends of the game as the players typically ranked above them. And when you compare players who have reached some type of elite threshold, the more important the impact on the sport becomes and the less important the rest of it becomes.

LeBron qualifies as a legend of the game, but barely. He was (mostly) the best player in the NBA for 10-15 years. But his legacy is the FA superteam which has really hurt the NBA. It is avoiding facing top teams in the playoffs (starting with when he joined the Heat), until he reach the finals and then having an extremely mixed record to be kind. Of all top players in the NBA in any era, he is the least compelling (other than maybe Kareem who is similar to LeBron in a lot of ways other than the late career wins, which might happen for LeBron too).

Remember a few years back (right before Steph was exposed in the finals for the first time), when we were seeing those slow motion 3 point shot commercials and people were declaring him the best player in the NBA? Well talent wise, he wasn't on the LeBron's level, but people were so desperate for a legendary player to emerge. We hadn't seen one since Shaq in the early 00s and the NBA has suffered because of it. Of course Steph is no all time great player, despite the ring count and amazing 3 point legacy, so all that talk died down pretty quickly. But we are still waiting for the next great player. Maybe Giannis will be that. Who knows? But will he pass Jordan? Will anyone? (that's the question being asked)....

The answer is that it is possible, but we are going to need someone that is the best player in the NBA by a significant margin (at least the LeBron over Kobe/Duncan/Durant margin) AND be a super compelling character that people all just agree is amazing (where even the haters are different from the LeBron haters...maybe more like the Shaq haters that overly focused on his FT percentage or said he was fouling everyone...lol), AND he is going to have to win a lot and have very few if any notable black marks on the record AND he's going to have to be a guy who either played for one team only or was traded early on and not at his request or with no even slight indication or rumor that he requested it, AND he'll have to have a pretty compelling statistical case (at least as good as LeBron's statistical case).

If we get such a player, he'll go down as better than Jordan. Current players are always given the edge over past ones because not everyone remembers the past players all that well and some are too young to have seen them and to have felt their impact and the buzz around them. I think of current players (that have already established themselves to any real degree), Giannis is the only one with a really ANY shot at this, even though it is a long shot. We should be rooting for him to get there.

[DaHeezy]

Popularity doesn't equate to being better you moron. You aren't even american and basketball isn't half as popular outside the USA as it is here. Jordan is certainly better and greater than LeBron, but that has nothing to do with popularity you fukking child.

Exactly. My mom doesn't know who Messi is. But she sure as hell knows David Beckham

[And1AllDay]

well lebron was the 1st to pass him but your right no one else probably will get to 6k points

https://i.postimg.cc/9M4CH92H/BronBron_1.jpg
current update not on list

playoff points

1. lebron 6911
2. mike 5987
.
.
.
10. kd 4043
27. curry 2968
35. harden 2654
48. kawhi 2164