Offensive Impact Stats for Kobe and Curry (Team ORtg with and without each guy)

[3ball]

.
Playoffs


08' Lakers ORtg .with.'' Kobe - 109.9
08' Lakers ORtg w/out Kobe -.. 93.7
__________________________________
..................................Difference - 16.2 (https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/onoffcourt-summary/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=DIFF_OFF_RATING&dir=1) <----- link to NBA.com source


09' Lakers ORtg .with.'' Kobe - 112.0
09' Lakers ORtg w/out Kobe -.. 94.0
__________________________________
.................................Difference - 18.0 (https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/onoffcourt-summary/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=DIFF_OFF_RATING&dir=1)


10' Lakers ORtg .with.'' Kobe - 112.4
10' Lakers ORtg w/out Kobe -.. 96.4
__________________________________
................................Difference - 16.0 (https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612747/onoffcourt-summary/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs&sort=DIFF_OFF_RATING&dir=1)




19' Warrior ORtg .with.'' Curry - 119.0
19' Warrior ORtg w/out Curry - 102.7
__________________________________
.................................Difference - 16.3 (https://stats.nba.com/team/1610612744/onoffcourt-summary/?sort=DIFF_OFF_RATING&dir=1)



Kobe is superior, so obviously MJ would destroy Curry's offensive impact

The 91-93' bulls ranked 1st, 1st, and 2nd in ORtg (2nd all-time in 92'), but dropped to 14th in the league in 1994..

so they fell from 2nd all-time to 14th in the league without MJ... Contrastingly, Curry's Warriors ranked 14th in 2010 and 2011, but still ranked 14th when he was hurt for most of 2012.. it's ancedotal evidence, but it still exists
.

[Smoke117]

Curry > Jordan > Kobe.

/thread

[3ball]

Curry > Jordan > Kobe.

/thread
Except there's a bigger change in team ORtg when Kobe leaves the floor or comes back in than Curry

So the stats show that mini-MJ had better offensive impact than Curry, which means the actual MJ would destroy his impact

Enough with the cumbaya around Curry - thecfacts don't support his perceived impact

[TheCorporation]

Curry > Jordan > Kobe.

/thread

Bingo

Close it up now

[elementally morale]

If Curry had a killer instinct....

If he wins is all this year w/o Durant he is a top 15 ish player. May be ranked even higher. 2 more rings and he is top 10. Pretty crazy.

[3ball]

If Curry had a killer instinct....

If he wins is all this year w/o Durant he is a top 15 ish player. May be ranked even higher. 2 more rings and he is top 10. Pretty crazy.
True, but that's a lot of if's

Way too many for a guy that can only impose his will about 40-45% of the time he shoots and that requires him being open (80% of his threes are "open" or "wide open", according to the NBA)

Face facts - there's a bigger change in team ORtg when Kobe leaves the floor or comes back in than Curry

So the stats show that mini-MJ had better offensive impact than Curry, which means the actual MJ would destroy his impact

[tpols]

you just ethered yourself and im a kobe fan.

Currys teams reached far higher ORTG peaks with less talent. (Pau > klay, odom = dray)

[3ball]

you just ethered yourself and im a kobe fan.

Currys teams reached far higher ORTG peaks with less talent. (Pau > klay, odom = dray)
Nah, there's a bigger change in team ORtg when Kobe leaves the floor or comes back in than Curry - Kobe simply had bigger offensive impact

So the stats prove Kobe's greater impact, and therefore jordan's

[NBAGOAT]

wait a sec a 95ortg is easily the worst in the league. How does mj's teams dropping from 1st to 14th prove mj is more impactful that kobe. Even if we use 92, it goes from 115.5 to 106.

I'm not a big raw +/- guy but using it here supports kobe. ofc if you knew better, you wouldnt even do a comparison that way. Why would you use team rating for the whole year when some of those minutes, mj isnt playing.

[Smoke117]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/8jYBs4hoKhQQ0/giphy.gif

[3ball]

wait a sec a 95ortg is easily the worst in the league. How does mj's teams dropping from 1st to 14th prove mj is more impactful that kobe. Even if we use 92, it goes from 115.5 to 106.

I'm not a big raw +/- guy but using it here supports kobe. ofc if you knew better, you wouldnt even do a comparison that way. Why would you use team rating for the whole year when some of those minutes, mj isnt playing.
Kobe's teams never reached anywhere near #2 all-time.. I don't even think his best team offense was in the top 75 all-time

Its a much bigger drop-off to go from #2 all-time to #14 in the league, than #6 in the league for Kobe, to #25 without him... #6 in the league is nowhere NEAR #2 all-time

[NBAGOAT]

Kobe's teams never reached anywhere near #2 all-time.. I don't even think his best team offense was in the top 75 all-time

Its a much bigger drop-off to go from #2 all-time to #14 in the league, than #6 in the league for Kobe, to #25 without him... #6 in the league is nowhere NEAR #2 all-time

no you dont get a 96 ortg is easily the worst in the league and an outlier among outliers for the league(lowest in 09 was a 102). you're essentially claiming 115.5-106>16. Thanks for the laugh :lol

[bigkingsfan]

112.9 93 Ordan
106.1 94 Pete Myers

6.8 difference :roll:

[3ball]

^^^^ That isn't how it works bigkingsfan - ur comparing apples and oranges

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

.
Playoff shots in last 5 minutes, within 5 points, since 2001


134-323 for Lebron.. 41.4%
108 games.. 3.0 attempts per game

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game



71-171 for Durant.. 41.5%
56 games.. 3.1 attempts per game

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&player_id=duranke01&year_id=&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q1=&q2=&q3=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&is_tying=&is_go_ahead=&c1stat=&c1comp=&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=&c3val=&order_by=date_game&order_by_asc=&offset=0



91-238 for Kobe.. 38.2%
72 games.. 3.3 attempts per game

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=bryanko01&order_by=date_game

Kobe 2000 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals):. 10-17.. 58.8% (6 games)
Kobe 1999 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1998-99&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals):. 2-6.. 33.0% (4 games)
Kobe 1998 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals):. 2-2.. 100.0% (4 games)
Kobe 1997 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals):. 2-7.. 28.6% (2 games)


106-270 for Kobe overall.. 39.2%
88 games.. 3.1 attempts per game



Jordan 1997 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals):. 20-39.. 51.3% (11 games)
Jordan 1998 Playoffs (https://stats.nba.com/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals):. 22-50.. 44.0% (14 games)

42-89 for MJ overall
25 games.. 3.6 attempts per game..



So old MJ shot much better in tight games on 20% more clutch attempts.. :bowdown:
.

[3ball]

no you dont get a 96 ortg is easily the worst in the league and an outlier among outliers for the league(lowest in 09 was a 102). you're essentially claiming 115.5-106>16. Thanks for the laugh :lol


Ur comparing apples and oranges

I brought up MJ's missed 94' season to show another example of mj's goat impact, not because it's an analogous or mathematically similar example to the Kobe/Curry data

it isn't the same - we don't have play-by-play info for this kind of data prior to 2008 - that's as far back as the NBA.com data goes..

if there was NBA.com data for Jordan, I would've posted it like I did with the clutch stats shown above, or the closest defender stats for the threes of curry/dame/harden, shown here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13681661&postcount=41)..

[bigkingsfan]

https://i.ibb.co/hLj8Rz6/pete-myers.png

[RRR3]

Kobe AND Curry confirmed better than Jordan. Damn. Is this dude even a top 5 perimeter player ever?

[3ball]

no you dont get a 96 ortg is easily the worst in the league and an outlier among outliers for the league(lowest in 09 was a 102). you're essentially claiming 115.5-106>16. Thanks for the laugh :lol


Diminishing returns

There's 3 teams in history that reached 115.5 ortg, but a hundred that reached 112 - each tenth of a point gets harder to achieve as a team gets higher and higher

So the 9.5 gap is more than just 9.5 when compared to the 16-point Kobe gap because the Kobe-less offenses aren't falling from as high/rare a place.. you wouldn't expect such a juggernaut of know-how and great quality basketball/teamwork to fall off catastrophically - accordingly, those bulls "only" fell from 2nd all-time to 14th in the league.

Hope that helps

[NBAGOAT]

Diminishing returns

There's 3 teams in history that reached 115.5 ortg, but a hundred that reached 112 - each tenth of a point gets harder to achieve as a team gets higher and higher

So the 9.5 point gap is absolutely more than just 9.5 when compared to the 16-point Kobe gap because the Kobe-less offenses aren't falling from as high/rare a place.. you wouldn't expect such a juggernaut of know-how and great quality basketball to fall off catastrophically, and those bulls "only" fell from 2nd all-time to 14th in the league
.

lol you had to come up with two posts for two separate counterarguments. The first one is correct(i even pointed it out). Apm numbers dont paint jordan as an outlier however. Also diminishing returns dont make up a 7.5 pt gap even though it's a thing.

[3ball]

lol you had to come up with two posts for two separate counterarguments. The first one is correct(i even pointed it out). Apm numbers dont paint jordan as an outlier however. Also diminishing returns dont make up a 7.5 pt gap even though it's a thing.
We don't have proper data for MJ's apm

All we have is the raw +/-, and MJ set the record in 96', before Curry broke it in 16' (MJ's +/- data is from old 76'er media guides which I have links for)

But that was 96' MJ, so nowhere near his best year or peak, which we don't have data for (88-93')

Regarding the diminishing returns - it absolutely accounts for the 7-pt gap, along with other factors, like the 94' Bulls with full training camp to make new season adjustments and preparation that the Lakers can't make mid-game when Kobe goes to the bench.. so the data is very different..

but again, you're also underestimating how far the drop is from a top 2 all-time offense (115 ortg), compared to a top 100 offense (112)... a top 100 offense is a pretty standard offense and isn't anywhere near a top 2 offense - 112 offenses occur often and fall off often.. but you wouldn't expect a goat offense of know-how and quality basketball to fall off catastrophically, especially not a motivated team

[Smoke117]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/8jYBs4hoKhQQ0/giphy.gif

[NBAGOAT]

We don't have proper data for MJ's apm

All we have is the raw +/-, and MJ set the record in 96', before Curry broke it in 16' (MJ's +/- data is from old 76'er media guides which I have links for)

But that was 96' MJ, so nowhere near his best year or peak, which we don't have data for (88-93')

Regarding the diminishing returns - it absolutely accounts for the 7-pt gap, along with other factors, like the 94' Bulls with full training camp to make new season adjustments and preparation that the Lakers can't make mid-game when Kobe goes to the bench.. so the data is very different..

but again, you're also underestimating how far the drop is from a top 2 all-time offense (115 ortg), compared to a top 100 offense (112)... a top 100 offense is a pretty standard offense and isn't anywhere near a top 2 offense - 112 offenses occur often and fall off often.. but you wouldn't expect a goat offense of know-how and quality basketball to fall off catastrophically, especially not a motivated team

there have been people who have a decent amount sample size of mj's +/-. I suggest looking up phila's stuff here or realgm

[3ball]

there have been people who have a decent amount sample size of mj's +/-. I suggest looking up phila's stuff here or realgm
do we have play-by-play data for Jordan?

Okay then, so we don't have any real apm stats for him.. just boxscore stuff, a lot of which says he's #1, at least the most important stuff

And I saw plus-minus data on MJ's clutch stats by PHILA, and they showed MJ with a ridiculous edge...

similarly, NBA.com's playoff data on clutch shots shows 97' and 98' MJ shooting much better in the clutch than durant/lebron/kobe), on 20% more clutch attempts (last 5 minutes, within 5..... 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97/98 MJ, and 41% on 3.0 attempts for lebron/durant's entire playoff career)

[NBAGOAT]

do we have play-by-play data for Jordan?

Okay then, so we don't have any real apm stats for him.. just boxscore stuff, a lot of which says he's #1, at least the most important stuff

And I saw plus-minus data on MJ's clutch stats by PHILA, and they showed MJ with a ridiculous edge...

similarly, NBA.com's playoff data on clutch shots shows 97' and 98' MJ shooting much better in the clutch than durant/lebron/kobe), on 20% more clutch attempts (last 5 minutes, within 5..... 47% on 3.6 attempts for 97/98 MJ, and 41% on 3.0 attempts for lebron/durant's entire playoff career)

independent posters have done it based on pretty decent sample sizes(50-75 games from 1st 3 peat mj). Hell you can do it. You dont watch nba today anyway, may as well just rewatch bulls games documenting just mj

[bigkingsfan]

Hell you can do it. You dont watch nba today anyway, may as well just rewatch bulls games documenting just mj
You trust that guy to do it? :roll:

[NBAGOAT]

You trust that guy to do it? :roll:

no I'm just trying to get him to post less :lol

[Vino24]

I have Curry just ahead of MJ

[StrongLurk]

3ball is definitely autistic.

He has been continuously melting down ever since Durant got injured and Curry went supernova.

Dude is non-step cherry picking as many stats as he can find :roll:

[LAmbruh]

112.9 93 Ordan
106.1 94 Pete Myers

6.8 difference :roll:
:roll: :roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

112.9 93 Ordan
106.1 94 Pete Myers

6.8 difference :roll:


this 3ball :roll: