1st option rings - what accomplishment is bigger? It's the best GOAT argument

[3ball]

Jordan - 6 first option rings


Everyone else - 3 or less

[MrFonzworth]

Weak era.

1/9 when he actually had competition.

[TheCorporation]

Weak era.

1/9 when he actually had competition.

[Smoke117]

1-9

/thread

[RRR3]

Weak era.


1-9, spanked by Papa Bird when he actually had competition.

[MrFonzworth]

1/9

[RRR3]

Guys it’s 1-9. Or 1/10 if you’re doing it that way.

[TheCorporation]

Losing record to Bird, Isiah, and Hakeem

1-9

Yikes

Etc.

[Smoke117]

Guys it’s 1-9. Or 1/10 if you’re doing it that way.

Ninety percent of this board is retarded regardless of who they stan or hate, bro.

[3ball]

Anyone want to take a stab at the thread title - what's a bigger accomplishment than a 1st option ring?

[SouBeachTalents]

Anyone want to take a stab at the thread title - what's a bigger accomplishment than a 1st option ring?
Agreed, which is why Russell's the GOAT

[TheCorporation]

Anyone want to take a stab at the thread title - what's a bigger accomplishment than a 1st option ring?

How many players have 6900 points? One

How many have 6 rings? 10 or so

Bye

[Smoke117]

Agreed, which is why Russell's the GOAT

http://alanpaul.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/bill_russell_lifetime_achievement_fb.jpg

[TheCorporation]

http://alanpaul.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/bill_russell_lifetime_achievement_fb.jpg

:bowdown:

Who has 11?

Only Bill

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

Agreed, which is why Russell's the GOAT


He averaged 9 points a lot, so I'd argue that he wasn't 1st option hardly ever

He won "Ben Wallace" rings... :confusedshrug:....... which is nothing to sneeze at..

But a 2-way great like MJ did both - some Ben Wallace (goat-level D and teammate inspiration) and some Wilt (goat offense carry-job)... That's better than just doing the Ben Wallace part like Russell did.

[TheCorporation]

How many players have 6900 points? One

How many have 6 rings? 10 or so

Bye

2ball?

[SouBeachTalents]

He averaged 9 points a lot, so I'd argue that he wasn't 1st option hardly ever

He won "Ben Wallace" rings... :confusedshrug:....... which is nothing to sneeze at..

But a 2-way great like MJ did both - some Ben Wallace (goat-level D and teammate inspiration) and some Wilt (goat O carry-job)... That's better than just doing the Ben Wallace part like Russell did.
Russell literally never averaged 9 points, you have no idea wtf you're talking about :lol

[DaHeezy]

It boggles my mind that Dray N Klay gets constantly ragged on yet 3ball does the exact same thing. But on steroids.

[Smoke117]

He averaged 9 points a lot, so I'd argue that he wasn't 1st option hardly ever

He won "Ben Wallace" rings... :confusedshrug:....... which is nothing to sneeze at..

But a 2-way great like MJ did both - some Ben Wallace (goat-level D and teammate inspiration) and some Wilt (goat offense carry-job)... That's better than just doing the Ben Wallace part like Russell did.

LMFAO, you have to love how he's so deluded he actually thinks Jordan was anything close to the level Ben Wallace was defensively. Jesus christ. Is it not enough for you Jordan is considered the GOAT you have to make up stupid ass shit like he was at the level of a Ben Wallace or Hakeem defensively. Guys he wasn't even 1/10th of when it comes to impact in that regard. That there are honestly clowns here who think you are telling facts when you say shit like this is hilarious.

[3ball]

Russell literally never averaged 9 points, you have no idea wtf you're talking about :lol


9 ppg in the 59' and 69' Finals

11 and 13 ppg in various others

But let's not let facts get in the way of a good troll

[3ball]

LMFAO, you have to love how he's so deluded he actually thinks Jordan was anything close to the level Ben Wallace was defensively. Jesus christ. Is it not enough for you Jordan is considered the GOAT you have to make up stupid ass shit like he was at the level of a Ben Wallace or Hakeem defensively. Guys he wasn't even 1/10th of when it comes to impact in that regard. That there are honestly clowns here who think you are telling facts when you say shit like this is hilarious.
MJ and Wallace are analogous in that both played goat D at their position

So again, Russell won "Ben Wallace" rings, which is nothing to sneeze at..

But a 2-way great like MJ did both - some Ben Wallace (goat-level D and teammate inspiration) and some Wilt (goat offense carry-job)...

That's better than just doing the Ben Wallace part like Russell did

[SouBeachTalents]

9 ppg in the 59' and 69' Finals

11 and 13 ppg in various others

But let's not let facts get in the way of a good troll
Says he averaged 9 points "a lot", has to cherry pick literally 2 series in a 13 year career lol

[Smoke117]

MJ and Wallace are analogous in that both played goat D at their position

So again, Russell won "Ben Wallace" rings, which is nothing to sneeze at..

But a 2-way great like MJ did both - some Ben Wallace (goat-level D and teammate inspiration) and some Wilt (goat offense carry-job)... That's better than just doing the Ben Wallace part like Russell did

GOAT D at the SG position and GOAT at the Center position are two very different things you clown which you are well aware of. You just like twisting shit to make MJ look much better than he was. The fact of the matter is, like I said before, Jordan didn't even have 1/10th of the defensive impact a Ben Wallace had. As I've said millions of times, CONTEXT is basically allergic to you. That's beside the point that Ben wallace was neither better than Hakeem or David Robinson at D at the Center position in the first place. At his peak and prime I do have him 3rd for the modern NBA, though.

[NBAGOAT]

Comparing Russell's offense to Ben Wallace should be banworthy

[3ball]

Says he averaged 9 points "a lot", has to cherry pick literally 2 series in a 13 year career lol
Averaging 9 ppg twice IS a lot... And 11 and 13 various other times

Imagine if lebron did that.. you're just using a double standard to degrade MJ

[GimmeThat]

padded stats of your last option

[bigkingsfan]

He was the first option on the defensive end, so yes bow down. 11 rangz

[kennethgriffen]

heinsohn 1957 ( most shots and points )
heinsohn 1959 ( most shots and points )
heinsohn 1960 ( most shots and points )
heinsohn 1961 ( most shots and points )
heinsohn 1962 ( a few less points than russell but still the most shots )
heinsohn 1963 ( 1 less ppg than jones but still the most shots )


tom heinsohn was the 1st option for 6 title teams

[FKAri]

Winning a ring for Cleveland. CLEVELAND!

[3ball]

GOAT D at the SG position and GOAT at the Center position are two very different things you clown which you are well aware of. You just like twisting shit to make MJ look much better than he was. The fact of the matter is, like I said before, Jordan didn't even have 1/10th of the defensive impact a Ben Wallace had. As I've said millions of times, CONTEXT is basically allergic to you. That's beside the point that Ben wallace was neither better than Hakeem or David Robinson at D at the Center position in the first place. At his peak and prime I do have him 3rd for the modern NBA, though.
All MJ can do is be the goat defender at his position and provide goat inspiration and example to his teammates... :confusedshrug:

He's much closer to Wallace/Russell defensively than they are to his offense

And you didn't even think Russell averaged 9 ppg ever, remember? Now I showed you 2 Finals where he was carried on offense, so you move the goal posts.. and he had other Finals with 11 and 13 ppg

[Smoke117]

All MJ can do is be the goat defender at his position and provide goat inspiration and example to his teammates... :confusedshrug:

He's much closer to Wallace/Russell defensively than they are to his offense

And you didn't even think Russell averaged 9 ppg ever, remember? Now I showed you 2 Finals where he was carried on offense, so you move the goal posts.. and he had other Finals with 11 and 13 ppg

Not really. They are not close to what he is offensively and he isn't close to them defensively. You can obsess about the meter, but it changes nothing.

[3ball]

Winning a ring for Cleveland. CLEVELAND!
Winning a ring for Chicago was equally rare and monumental

Chick Hearn:


"Who were the Bulls before MJ got there?.. Cows"

[TheCorporation]

Averaging 9 ppg twice IS a lot... And 11 and 13 various other times

Imagine if lebron did that.. you're just using a double standard to degrade MJ

If twice is "a lot" what about a 1-9 frequency rate?

That would be THREE 1st round exits

Jordan lost in the first round A LOT

:lol

[3ball]

Not really. They are not close to he is offensively and he isn't close to them defensively. You can obsess about the meter, but it changes nothing.
MJ was one of the best defenders in the league

Russell/Wallace were nowhere near the best offensive players in the league

You bias is making you look real dumb

[Vino24]

If twice is "a lot" what about a 1-9 frequency rate?

That would be THREE 1st round exits

Jordan lost in the first round A LOT

:lol
Got em' :banana: :banana:

[bigkingsfan]

MJ was one of the best defenders in the league

Russell/Wallace were nowhere near the best offensive players in the league

You bias is making you look real dumb
93 opponent FG % rank 15
94 opponent FG % rank 12

Their defense actually got better with Pete Myers

[3ball]

93 opponent FG % rank 15
94 opponent FG % rank 12

Their defense actually got better without MJ
Bulls bullshitted the regular season in 93' to prepare for the goat accomplishment of the modern era (3-peat).. they only won 57 games just like the Warriors this yr

This is common knowledge

But I'll respond more directly to your post - MJ improved the bulls' offense from 14th in the league (94') to #2 all-time (91-93'), without any drop-off in defensive rank (4th, 7th, 4th from 91-93', versus 6th in 94')

Teams have a FINITE amount of energy to expend on both ends and improvements on one end take away from the other... But MJ is the goat 2-way player, so his presence allowed vast offensive improvement with no drop-off on D.. :bowdown:.. :bowdown:
.

[bigkingsfan]

Bulls bullshitted the regular season in 93' to prepare for the goat accomplishment of the modern era (3-peat).. they only won 57 games just like the Warriors this yr

This is common knowledge

But I'll respond more directly to your post - MJ improved the bulls' offense from 14th in the league (94') to #2 all-time (91-93'), without any drop-off in defensive rank (4th, 7th, 4th from 91-93', versus 6th in 94')

Teams have a FINITE amount of energy to expend on both ends and improvements on one end take away from the other... But MJ is the goat 2-way player, so his presence allowed cast offensive improvement with no drop-off on D.. :bowdown:.. :bowdown:
They were also #13 in 91 babyboi.

[Vino24]

They were also #13 in 91 babyboi.
2ball fudging stats yet again :lol :lol :lol

[3ball]

They were also #13 in 91 babyboi.
Bulls' defense ranked 4th, 7th, and 4th in 91-93'

So no drop-off from 1994 (6th)

despite improvement from #14 on offense (94') to #1 in 91/92' and 2nd in 93'.. the 92' offense was #2 all-time

So wtf are you talking about 13th?.. you made that up to derail or because you have no response

So again, teams have a FINITE amount of energy to expend on both ends - improvements on one end take away from the other... But MJ is the goat 2-way player, so his presence allowed vast offensive improvement with no drop-off on D.... MJ enabled a 2-way team.. :confusedshrug:.. :bowdown:

[aj1987]

Bulls' defense ranked 4th, 7th, and 4th in 91-93'

So no drop-off from 1994 (6th)

despite improvement from #14 on offense (94') to #1 in 91/92' and 2nd in 93'.. the 92' offense was #2 all-time

So wtf are you talking about 13th?.. you made that up to derail or because you have no response

So again, teams have a FINITE amount of energy to expend on both ends - improvements on one end take away from the other... But MJ is the goat 2-way player, so his presence allowed vast offensive improvement with no drop-off on D.... MJ enabled a 2-way team.. :confusedshrug:.. :bowdown:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

The Bulls were 7th in '93 and 6th in '94. Not to mention the FACT that they were 2nd in '95. You truly are on massive idiot.

[Stephonit]

What does first option mean? The criterion is suspect. Undervalues terrific playmakers, defenders, and those with a more unique skill set. Unsurprising the one pushing this criterion is a Jordan fan.

[Smoke117]

93 opponent FG % rank 15
94 opponent FG % rank 12

Their defense actually got better with Pete Myers


https://media.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[TheCorporation]

Got em' :banana: :banana:

He is BIG shook

Which basically means he is slowly starting to realize that LeBron is the greatest. I knew this day would come where he would finally accept it and I know it wouldn't be pretty

[bigkingsfan]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

The Bulls were 7th in '93 and 6th in '94. Not to mention the FACT that they were 2nd in '95. You truly are on massive idiot.
Jesus Christ had to look up defensive ratings myself, 3-ball caught lying again.

:roll:

BTW this is individual leaders, someone's name is missing.

https://i.ibb.co/GRt64zz/Untitled2.png

[TheCorporation]

Jesus Christ had to look up defensive ratings myself, 3-ball caught lying again.

:roll:

BTW this is individual leaders, someone's name is missing.

https://i.ibb.co/GRt64zz/Untitled2.png

The fraud exposed again

[3ball]

The Bulls were 7th in '93 and 6th in '94. Not to mention the FACT that they were 2nd in '95. You truly are on massive idiot.


I got the numbers switched but it makes no difference

Bulls' defense ranked 7th, 4th, and 7th in 91-93'

So no material drop-off from 1994 (6th), despite improvement from #14 on offense (94') to #1 in 91/92' and 2nd in 93'.. the 92' offense was #2 all-time

So again, teams have a FINITE amount of energy to expend on both ends - improvements on one end take away from the other... But MJ is the goat 2-way player, so his presence allowed vast offensive improvement with no drop-off on D.... MJ enabled a 2-way team.. :bowdown:

[3ball]

What does first option mean? The criterion is suspect. Undervalues terrific playmakers, defenders, and those with a more unique skill set. Unsurprising the one pushing this criterion is a Jordan fan.
MJ was all of those things... Look up his numbers... You just don't know his game

[Smoke117]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

The Bulls were 7th in '93 and 6th in '94. Not to mention the FACT that they were 2nd in '95. You truly are on massive idiot.

Scottie Pippen is the only perimeter player to actually truly deserve the DPOY for that defensive job he did in 95. Bulls lose the 2/3 of their best defensive players (Jordan and Grant) and Scottie leads them to the 2nd best defensive team in the entire league. No perimeter player ever anchored a defense like he did that season.

[3ball]

Not really. They are not close to what he is offensively and he isn't close to them defensively. You can obsess about the meter, but it changes nothing.


That's like saying Kawhi isn't anywhere near Russell on defense - you guys can't seem to get it through your head that MJ was one of the best defenders in the league and arguably the goat perimeter defender

Otoh, Russell/Wallace were nowhere near the best offensive players in the league, while mj WAS one of the best defenders, and infact the best in 88'

And btw, if your only counter to this thread is that Russell is goat than MJ fam wins

[Smoke117]

That's like saying Kawhi isn't anywhere near Russell on defense - you guys can't seem to get it through your head that MJ was one of the best defenders in the league and arguably the goat perimeter defender

Otoh, Russell/Wallace were nowhere near the best offensive players in the league, while mj WAS one of the best defenders, and infact the best in 88'

Yeah, no. Hakeem Olajuwon was the best defensive player in 88. If you think a SG was better and more impactful than a Center defensively you should just stop watc...wait you already stopped watching basketball. I guess you should just learn basketball then. I know Jordan's dick is firmly lodged in your throat, but you can't seriously be so retarded and a fanboy to think he was actually more impactful than Hakeem Olajuwon defensively or other centers and big men in 88 can you? Please tell me your obsession doesn't make you this fukking stupid? :biggums:

[And1AllDay]

Scottie Pippen is the only perimeter player to actually truly deserve the DPOY for that defensive job he did in 95. Bulls lose the 2/3 of their best defensive players (Jordan and Grant) and Scottie leads them to the best defensive team in the entire league. No perimeter player ever anchored a defense like he did that season.

:applause:

[Gus Hemmingway]

3ball you making up numbers?

[3ball]

Yeah, no. Hakeem Olajuwon was the best defensive player in 88. If you think a SG was better and more impactful than a Center defensively you should just stop watc...wait you already stopped watching basketball. I guess you should just learn basketball. I know Jordan's dick is firmly lodged in your throat, but you can't so retarded to think he was actually more impactful than Hakeem Olajuwon defensively our other centers and big men in 88 can you? Please tell me your obsession doesn't make you this fukking stupid? :biggums:
MJ was the best defender in 1988 - if rookie pippen hadn't landed next to the dpoy and scoring champ, he wouldn't have become the 2-way player he became

Pippen copied MJ's defense and intensity, while Hakeem's teammates played matador and funneled penetrators his way - Hakeem was nowhere near the leader that MJ was and he was a big loser most of his career

You guys are literally taking the facts that I state, and making up your own truth (i.e. Hakeem deserved 88' dpoy) - that isn't an argument - anyone can change facts and make any argument they want

Again - MJ has 6 first-option rings (offensive carry-jobs, tbh) and everyone else has 3 or less - he had 6 fmvps while everyone else has 3 or less - that's the strongest argument for goat and nobody has provided a better one itt.. if your best counter is "9 ppg Russell is goat", then MJ fam wins easily

[aj1987]

I got the numbers switched but it makes no difference

Bulls' defense ranked 7th, 4th, and 7th in 91-93'

So no material drop-off from 1994 (6th), despite improvement from #14 on offense (94') to #1 in 91/92' and 2nd in 93'.. the 92' offense was #2 all-time

So again, teams have a FINITE amount of energy to expend on both ends - improvements on one end take away from the other... But MJ is the goat 2-way player, so his presence allowed vast offensive improvement with no drop-off on D.... MJ enabled a 2-way team.. :bowdown:
You got caught making up shit. AGAIN. STFU and just quit posting, 0ball.

[Smoke117]

MJ was the best defender in 1988 - if rookie pippen hadn't landed next to the dpoy and scoring champ, he wouldn't have become the 2-way player he became

Pippen copied MJ's defense and intensity, while Hakeem's teammates played matador and funneled penetrators his way - Hakeem was nowhere near the leader that MJ was and he was a big loser most of his career

You guys are literally taking the facts that I state, and making up your own truth (i.e. Hakeem deserved 88' dpoy) - that isn't an argument - anyone can change facts and make any argument they want

Again - MJ has 6 first-option rings (offensive carry-jobs, tbh) and everyone else has 3 or less - he had 6 fmvps while everyone else has 3 or less - that's the strongest argument for goat and nobody has provided a better one itt.. if your best counter is "9 ppg Russell is goat", then MJ fam wins easily

As I've said before, you are impossible to have any reasonable and logical conversation with. Only a complete fanboy would try to argue Michael Jordan was a better and more impactful defensive player than Hakeem Olajuwon in 88. You are so lost up his ass that it's just sad at this point. Even the other Jordan stans here wouldn't be trying to argue this kind of fukking nonsense.

[3ball]

You got caught making up shit. AGAIN. STFU and just quit posting, 0ball.
I didn't make up shit - all the numbers are there for anyone to verify... Ur just deflecting because you can't think of a better accomplishment than a first option ring, or a better goat argument than having 6 of them to everyone else's 3 or less

6 first option rings, 6 fmvp's.... Everyone else has 3 or less.. MJ's the goat and it isn't close - this is the consensus among all age groups, genders, league executives, coaches, players, and fans/media... Deal with it

[Smoke117]

I didn't make up shit - all the numbers are there for anyone to verify... Ur just deflecting because you can't think of a better accomplishment than a first option ring, or a better goat argument than having 6 of them to everyone else's 3 or less

6 first option rings, 6 fmvp's.... Everyone else has 3 or less.. MJ's the goat and it isn't close - this is the consensus among all age groups, genders, league executives, coaches, players, and fans/media... Deal with it

So then why are you so desperately trying to prove it on the worst basketball board on the internet? If that's true then why do you go out of your way to attack every perimeter player who gets any attention as an all time great and try to belittle everyone of Jordan's teammates? The way you post you'd think jordan was barely hanging on to that GOAT moniker. That's obviously not the case, but you are so just mentally deranged and obsessed with Jordan that you have to make 3 or 4 threads a day building up him while you tear other players down. You have mental issues, bro. This isn't an opinion. It's a fact. The sheer obsession you've displayed on this board over the last 5 years isn't normal.

[3ball]

As I've said before, you are impossible to have any reasonable and logical conversation with. Only a complete fanboy would try to argue Michael Jordan was a better and more impactful defensive player than Hakeem Olajuwon in 88. You are so lost up his ass that it's just sad at this point. Even the other Jordan stans here wouldn't be trying to argue this kind of fukking nonsense.
MJ won DPOY in 1988, so it was consensus the he was the best.. it's not my delusion

And pippen wouldn't learn shit from Hakeem except how to funnel penetrators his way - MJ spearheaded a new age where perimeter defenders could control a game and pippen became a part of what MJ started

So keep dreaming bud.. MJ had goat impact on both ends... Man, I can't even imagine liking basketball but knowing so little about it

[And1AllDay]

MJ won DPOY in 1988, so it was consensus the he was the best.. it's not my delusion

And pippen wouldn't learn shit from Hakeem except how to funnel penetrators his way - MJ spearheaded a new age where perimeter defenders could control a game and pippen became a part of what MJ started

So keep dreaming bud.. MJ had goat impact on both ends... Man, I can't even imagine liking basketball but knowing so little about it

https://media.giphy.com/media/UVXGjSQNI88XS/giphy.gif

[NBAGOAT]

That's like saying Kawhi isn't anywhere near Russell on defense

yes exactly right and true. Thanks for finally getting it. There's basically no good evidence besides someone's crappy eye test that Kawhi ever had Draymond's impact let alone a rim protector like Gobert. Not even a conversation with Russell. Kawhi was a great defender but draymond should've won those years. Hell Tim Duncan was likely more important on defense in 2015.

[Smoke117]

MJ won DPOY in 1988, so it was consensus the he was the best.. it's not my delusion

And pippen wouldn't learn shit from Hakeem except how to funnel penetrators his way - MJ spearheaded a new age where perimeter defenders could control a game and pippen became a part of what MJ started

So keep dreaming bud.. MJ had goat impact on both ends... Man, I can't even imagine liking basketball but knowing so little about it


LMFAO...so Gary Payton was the best defensive player in 96 then? Ron Artest in 2004? They weren't even the best and most impactful defensive players on their own teams. Winning DPOY doesn't make you the best defensive player in the league you knucklehead. It makes you the most popular pick at the time by the media. No perimeter player picked for DPOY was ever actually the best defensive player in the league.

[3ball]

So then why are you so desperately trying to prove it on the worst basketball board on the internet? If that's true then why do you go out of your way to attack every perimeter player who gets any attention as an all time great and try to belittle everyone of Jordan's teammates? The way you post you'd think jordan was barely hanging on to that GOAT moniker. That's obviously not the case, but you are so just mentally deranged and obsessed with Jordan that you have to make 3 or 4 threads a day building up him while you tear other players down. You have mental issues, bro. This isn't an opinion. It's a fact. The sheer obsession you've displayed on this board over the last 5 years isn't normal.
I just like sticking it to you guys

Whether you like it or not, this forum is it's own universe.. this is planet ISH and nothing else really matters - we're the media on this site, and in this universe, anyone can be goat.. I'm saying it's MJ.. ur saying it's a 9 ppg dude.. and it's cool.. on planet ISH, there is no ESPN or other media - we're it - we're the earth

[Smoke117]

yes exactly right and true. Thanks for finally getting it. There's basically no good evidence besides someone's crappy eye test that Kawhi ever had Draymond's impact let alone a rim protector like Gobert. Not even a conversation with Russell. Kawhi was a great defender but draymond should've won those years. Hell Tim Duncan was likely more important on defense in 2015.

It's pathetic how he's so obsessed with MJ that he tries to delude himself into thinking he was the best defensive player in the league in 88 just because the media gave him the DPOY trophy. Trying to reason with him is literally like trying to reason with a 5 year old. They have the same spectrum of understanding if you are talking about MJ when it comes to this clown.

[aj1987]

I didn't make up shit - all the numbers are there for anyone to verify... Ur just deflecting because you can't think of a better accomplishment than a first option ring, or a better goat argument than having 6 of them to everyone else's 3 or less

6 first option rings, 6 fmvp's.... Everyone else has 3 or less.. MJ's the goat and it isn't close - this is the consensus among all age groups, genders, league executives, coaches, players, and fans/media... Deal with it
You literally made up numbers and you always do. This is not something which is new, retard.

[Smoke117]

I just like sticking it to you guys

Whether you like it or not, this forum is it's own universe.. this is planet ISH and nothing else really matters - we're the media on this site, and in this universe, anyone can be goat.. I'm saying it's MJ.. ur saying it's a 9 ppg dude.. and it's cool.. on planet ISH, there is no ESPN or other media - we're it - we're the earth

Embracing stupidity is sticking it to nobody, but yourself, bro.

[bigkingsfan]

I didn't make up shit - all the numbers are there for anyone to verify... Ur just deflecting because you can't think of a better accomplishment than a first option ring, or a better goat argument than having 6 of them to everyone else's 3 or less

6 first option rings, 6 fmvp's.... Everyone else has 3 or less.. MJ's the goat and it isn't close - this is the consensus among all age groups, genders, league executives, coaches, players, and fans/media... Deal with it
You just admitted to Lebron being a top 3 all time player, thanks for playing.

[tanibanana]

Jesus Christ had to look up defensive ratings myself, 3-ball caught lying again.

:roll:

BTW this is individual leaders, someone's name is missing.

https://i.ibb.co/GRt64zz/Untitled2.png

:applause:

[3ball]

The crown jewel of Wade's career was his 1st option ring in 2006

The crown jewel of Dirk's career was his 1st option ring in 2011

Kobe wasn't truly respected until he won two 1st option rings in 2009 and 10

No one cares about shaq's piggy back ring in 06' - his first option rings in 00-02' made his career

Guys like Kyrie and Durant seek 1st option rings as their career goal

Hakeem's career was made by a couple 1st option rings

And on.... And on ... And on ..


1st option rings are simply the most respected accomplishment there is - I asked you guys to give me a better accomplishment and only Corporation offered anything at all (6900 playoff points).. everyone else either trolled or said Bill Russell was goat (essentially a concession, at least that MJ is the post-60's goat, which is goat and good enough for me)

So MJ is goat primarily because he has twice as many 1st option rings as anyone else.. it's amazing.. but tbh, it's clear that many of you are unaware of the depth of mj's career - I recommend watching the best 54 minute summary available until the Netflix special comes out next year - watch this and you'll know more about MJ than 99% of basketball fans

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S4lv89nnjnM

[TheCorporation]

The crown jewel of Wade's career was his 1st option ring in 2006

The crown jewel of Dirk's career was his 1st option ring in 2011

Kobe wasn't truly respected until he won two 1st option rings in 2009 and 10

No one cares about shaq's piggy back ring in 06' - his first option rings in 00-02' made his career

Guys like Kyrie and Durant seek 1st option rings as their career goal

Hakeem's career was made by a couple 1st option rings

And on.... And on ... And on ..


1st option rings are simply the most respected accomplishment there is - I asked you guys to give me a better accomplishment and only Corporation offered anything at all (6900 playoff points).. everyone else either trolled or said Bill Russell was goat (essentially a concession, at least that MJ is the post-60's goat, which is goat and good enough for me)

So MJ is goat primarily because he has twice as many 1st option rings as anyone else.. it's amazing.. but tbh, it's clear that many of you are unaware of the depth of mj's career - I recommend watching the best 54 minute summary available until the Netflix special comes out next year - watch this and you'll know more about MJ than 99% of basketball fans

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S4lv89nnjnM

GOAT standard is 6900 points. Players that have achieved this?

LeBron James

[3ball]

GOAT standard is 6900 points. Players that have achieved this?

LeBron James
He lacks efficiency

On showtime boxing, they call it connect percentage

Your punches have to matter

6900 points and how many rings?

[Gileraracer]

3ball has some followers i see :lol

[Artillery]

Pippen was always a better defender than Dad Killer. Scottie handled all the tough defensive assignments while the Bulls hid Jordan on the scrubs.

[ImKobe]

Kobe has FOUR first option rings, hence why he is the 2nd GOAT

led 4 title teams in FGA and assists.

[GimmeThat]

It's only the fastest way to stack up your accomplishments



The crown jewel of Wade's career was his 1st option ring in 2006

The crown jewel of Dirk's career was his 1st option ring in 2011

Kobe wasn't truly respected until he won two 1st option rings in 2009 and 10

No one cares about shaq's piggy back ring in 06' - his first option rings in 00-02' made his career

Guys like Kyrie and Durant seek 1st option rings as their career goal

Hakeem's career was made by a couple 1st option rings

And on.... And on ... And on ..


1st option rings are simply the most respected accomplishment there is - I asked you guys to give me a better accomplishment and only Corporation offered anything at all (6900 playoff points).. everyone else either trolled or said Bill Russell was goat (essentially a concession, at least that MJ is the post-60's goat, which is goat and good enough for me)

So MJ is goat primarily because he has twice as many 1st option rings as anyone else.. it's amazing.. but tbh, it's clear that many of you are unaware of the depth of mj's career - I recommend watching the best 54 minute summary available until the Netflix special comes out next year - watch this and you'll know more about MJ than 99% of basketball fans

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S4lv89nnjnM

[Hey Yo]

Jordan - 6 first option rings


Everyone else - 3 or less
Jordan has 3 rings

Then he has "quit for 2yrs in his prime to rest up mentally and physically, came back, lost in the 2nd round and then won 3 rings after that

Rest up rings don't count.

[Wally450]

Jordan would've lost to the Rockets in 94 and 95 if he played.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

It boggles my mind that Dray N Klay gets constantly ragged on yet 3ball does the exact same thing. But on steroids.

Open your eyes.

3ball is getting ragged and tagged in THIS thread.

[And1AllDay]

Open your eyes.

3ball is getting ragged and tagged in THIS thread.

But 3baLLLLLLLL is getting ragged on with facts which is deserved to him while my boy D n K is getting ragged on by emotional LEZBIANS

https://youtu.be/IxVunUCctic?t=33

[And1AllDay]

Jordan has 3 rings

Then he has "quit for 2yrs in his prime to rest up mentally and physically, came back, lost in the 2nd round and then won 3 rings after that

Rest up rings don't count.


3baLLLLLL outchea reading this rn

https://media.giphy.com/media/4OowbIsmYHbpu/giphy.gif

[Artillery]

Kobe has FOUR first option rings, hence why he is the 2nd GOAT

led 4 title teams in FGA and assists.

:oldlol: won the majority of his titles as a sidekick
:oldlol: missed the playoffs in his prime multiple times
:oldlol: ended his career with the worst contract in the NBA
:oldlol: destroyed the Lakers in the process - effects are still felt today
:oldlol: retired in the lottery

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe has FOUR first option rings, hence why he is the 2nd GOAT

led 4 title teams in FGA and assists.
Nah, but 2 is nothing to be ashamed of. Only a handful of players have 3 titles as their teams best player

[TheCorporation]

:oldlol: won the majority of his titles as a sidekick
:oldlol: missed the playoffs in his prime multiple times
:oldlol: ended his career with the worst contract in the NBA
:oldlol: destroyed the Lakers in the process - effects are still felt today
:oldlol: retired in the lottery

Don't forget he also set the record for most missed field goals, lowest field-goal percentage in the last 50 years, lowest FG% for a FMVP, and had zero playoff triple doubles.

CHUCKbe

[TheCorporation]

Nah, but 2 is nothing to be ashamed of. Only a handful of players have 3 titles as their teams best player

+1

What's to be ashamed about as 12th best?

That's still REALLY good

[3ball]

He lacks efficiency

On showtime boxing, they call it connect percentage

Your punches have to matter

6900 points and how many rings?
No one?

6900 points and only 3 rings says his skills aren't as effective

[Smoke117]

Kobe has FOUR first option rings, hence why he is the 2nd GOAT

.

Cringe. That you actually believe this goes to show how much of a deluded fan boy you are and how stupid you are in general when it comes to basketball. Good job, bro. You got us all. :oldlol:

[SpaceJam2]

No one?

6900 points and only 3 rings says his skills aren't as effective


Playoff series wins:

Lebron = 35
Jordan = 30

Perhaps if he won more series he would have more points but he just couldn't do it :(

[SpaceJam2]

The GOAT Jordan... not even a question tbh...

And reminder to ignore anything this clown types...

https://i.ibb.co/XW1pRdW/Ronnie.jpg

Phase 2 (of 3)

https://i.postimg.cc/SRkQf4Gs/20190509-091533.png

Better cool it because you know what's Phase 3 baby boy

[SpaceJam2]

You really think I give a sh1t if you associate me with some random asian... :roll: :roll:

You dedicate your whole life to this forum lil nikka. I enjoy taking your toy away.... it only took you a few to boil hot again.

You understand but you can't help it.... no matter what you say. You're that messed up... I told you not so long ago. You a has been the moment I decided so...

https://i.ibb.co/XW1pRdW/Ronnie.jpg

Phase 3 (of 3)

Boys n' girls step right up, here he is *drum roll* Pickernroller:

https://i.postimg.cc/zG6rX9fp/Pickern.png

[Manny98]

:mad:
Spacejam got him boiling :roll:

[3ball]

Playoff series wins:

Lebron = 35
Jordan = 30

Perhaps if he won more series he would have more points but he just couldn't do it :(
Lebron's stats benefitted from deep runs in a weak conference that didn't require good teams to make the Finals from 01-09', when 5 weak teams made it (AI, Lebron, Dwight, Kidd 2) - and then Lebron stacked the deck to ensure Finals runs from 11-18', further inflating his stats

But his inflated totals resulted in far less rings, so his skills and stats are "empty"/less effective and miss their mark (winning) - similar to a suboptimal boxer that throws a ton of punches but fails to connect sufficiently, lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing a brand that can win frequently
.

[SpaceJam2]

Lebron's stats benefitted from deep runs in a weak conference that didn't require good teams to make the Finals from 01-09', when 5 weak teams made it (AI, Lebron, Dwight, Kidd 2) - and then Lebron stacked the deck to ensure Finals runs from 11-18', further inflating his stats

But his inflated totals resulted in far less rings, so his skills and stats are "empty"/less effective and miss their mark (winning) - similar to a suboptimal boxer that throws a ton of punches but fails to connect sufficiently, lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing a brand that can win frequently
.

Is playing in an era where 30-52 makes a playoffs also a "weak conference"

[3ball]

Is playing in an era where 30-52 makes a playoffs also a "weak conference"
No - having to be a great team to make the Finals makes it a great conference

Again, Lebron's stats benefitted from deep runs in a weak conference that didn't require good teams to make the Finals from 01-09', when 5 weak teams made it (AI, Lebron, Dwight, Kidd 2) - and then Lebron stacked the deck to ensure Finals runs from 11-18', further inflating his stats

But his inflated totals resulted in far less rings, so his skills and stats are "empty"/less effective and miss their mark (winning) - similar to a suboptimal boxer that throws a ton of punches but fails to connect sufficiently, lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing a brand that can win frequently

[3ball]

So it's settled - MJ is easily the goat because he has 6 first option rings while everyone else has 3 or less

That's why Durant is leaving the Warriors:.. 1st option rings - the holy grail of hoops achievement.. :bowdown:

[And1AllDay]

https://i.postimg.cc/wj650XHS/1557790886267.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/9XNrQrGn/screen-shot-2018-05-21-at-11-42-59-am.jpg

Me, Corp, and Manny:

https://i.postimg.cc/kgG9VqRY/source.gif

[3ball]

Lebron's 6900 points is like having sex with a bunch of women but none are satisfied

Translation: 6900 points and only 3 rings means lebron is doing something wrong

Specifically, his ball-dominant, stat accumulation prevents his teams from frequently reaching the ultimate satisfaction (winning)

Furthermore, the phrase "8 straight Finals" is a word trick that simply means 8 conference finals wins - obviously, that shouldn't be confused with actually winning the Finals wins... Lebron = Jim Kelly x 2

Also, none if his game winners are late in the series or in the championship - they're all lower leverage winners, and his elimination game PPG is because he lets weaker teams take him the distance

So all of his "standards" are nowhere near goat-standards, and no one would ever want such a shit record (3/9, team-hopping, constant thirstiness for "help", cringe)

[And1AllDay]

Lebron's 6900 points is like having sex with a bunch of women but none are satisfied

Translation: 6900 points and only 3 rings means lebron is doing something wrong

Specifically, his ball-dominant, stat accumulation prevents his teams from frequently reaching the ultimate satisfaction (winning)

Furthermore, the phrase "8 straight Finals" is a word trick that simply means 8 conference finals wins - obviously, that shouldn't be confused with actually winning the Finals wins... Lebron = Jim Kelly x 2

Also, none if his game winners are late in the series or in the championship - they're all lower leverage winners, and his elimination game PPG is because he lets weaker teams take him the distance

So all of his "standards" are nowhere near goat-standards, and no one would ever want such a shit record (3/9, team-hopping, constant thirstiness for "help", cringe)

So less points is better and less deep playoff runs is better by your Jordan standard.

No thanks :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Vino24]

Jordan wasn't capable of beating all time great teams like the 73 win warriors or the 80's Celtics/Pistons. LeBron not only accepted the challenge but exceeded expectations.

[bigkingsfan]

Lebron's 6900 points is like having sex with a bunch of women but none are satisfied

Ask Madonna

[And1AllDay]

Ask Madonna


https://i.postimg.cc/Fs3Py0nq/tenor.gif

[3ball]

Jordan wasn't capable of beating all time great teams like the 73 win warriors or the 80's Celtics/Pistons. LeBron not only accepted the challenge but exceeded expectations.


The 96' Bulls are considered the greatest team ever and capable of beating any team

Otoh, Lebron wasn't capable of 70 wins or 3-peat dominance (goat dominance), or six 1st option rings

And he went 1/4 versus the Warriors, while his odds exceeded 1/4, thereby underachieving expectations.

And he needed an extra all-star and all-nba-achieving teammate to win his rings - if we gave MJ an extra all-star teammate, the bulls would've swept every team in history

MJ won with the least - 1 all-star alongside him yielded 6 rings, while lebron needed 6 all-star teammates to get 3 rings.. Kareem needed 9 to get 6 rings... So according to you, a player is better the MORE all-star teammates he needs, right??.. :oldlol:

[3ball]

What has MJ done that no other player did?

He accomplished the holy grail of basketball accomplishment - 1st option rings - 6 times - the next next guy did it 3 times

There is other argument - this is the argument that puts mj over every player in history

[Turbo Slayer]

What has MJ done that no other player did?

He accomplished the holy grail of basketball accomplishment - 1st option rings - 6 times - the next next guy did it 3 times

There is other argument - this is the argument that puts mj over every player in history nah LeBron top 5

[3ball]

nah LeBron top 5

I just tweeted this to Amin Elhassan of ESPN:



Kobe was nothing until he got a couple 1st option rings.. Durant, Dirk and Wade's entire careers are highlighted by their 1st option rings.. 1st option rings is the holy grail of accomplishment, and only MJ has 6 of them - 2nd place has 3.. that's the reason MJ is goat over Kareem


because he said "what has MJ done that Kareem hasn't".... :facepalm... Uh, won as the man twice as much?.. :hammerhead:..

[Turbo Slayer]

I just tweeted this to Amin Elhassan of ESPN:



Kobe was nothing until he got a couple 1st option rings.. Durant, Dirk and Wade's entire careers are highlighted by their 1st option rings.. 1st option rings is the holy grail of accomplishment, and only MJ has 6 of them - 2nd place has 3.. that's the reason MJ is goat over Kareem


because he said "what has MJ done that Kareem hasn't".... :facepalm... Uh, won as the man twice as much?.. :hammerhead:.. Bron is top 5 in my book. He came back from 3-1 deficit. LeGOAT LeClutch LeComeback

[Turbo Slayer]

Weak era.

1/9 when he actually had competition. yep

[3ball]

yep
2-star teams will always look weaker than the Big 3 format of recent years

But today's league has returned to a 2-star vs. 2 star format and MJ won 6 rings with that format - indeed, the goat + any solid star = goat twosome.....

i.e. MJ 3-peated twice in the environment that Kawhi faces now (2-star vs. 2-star format)

:bowdown:

[RRR3]

mmm smack MJ
:biggums:

[3ball]

:biggums:
That's okay you ran from your own thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=393501&page=5) about how the goat must be considered a great shooter

[RRR3]

duh hyuk hyuk
That’s now the thread was about you retarded chipmunk.

[Mr Feeny]

Agree with oP. And Lebron has more 1st option rings than Kobe. So that means he is ahead of Kobe, according to OP's criteria.

[RRR3]

Agree with oP. And Lebron has more 1st option rings than Kobe. So that means he is ahead of Kobe, according to OP's criteria.
Uh oh.


3ball, respond?

[AirBonner]

Agree with oP. And Lebron has more 1st option rings than Kobe. So that means he is ahead of Kobe, according to OP's criteria.
Op logged out at this post

[3ball]

Agree with oP. And Lebron has more 1st option rings than Kobe. So that means he is ahead of Kobe, according to OP's criteria.
Even though a ring as "the man" is the holy grail of basketball accomplishment and the biggest factor in the goat conversation, it isn't the only factor - it only works to make Jordan #1 because he has SO MANY more holy grails than the 2nd place guy (6 to 3)

but having just 1 more isn't enough to seal it

Guys like Shaq and Magic have 3 like Lebron, and all the guys with 2 have other factors to offset their 1 less holy grail (Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Durant and Kawhi have 2, but other things to offset this.. i.e. more rings, winning heads-up battles in the championship, etc)

[G0ATbe]

(Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Durant and Kawhi have 2, but other things to offset this.. i.e. more rings, winning heads-up battles in the championship, etc)
Well said. So this pretty much seals it... Russell>MJ.

[SouBeachTalents]

Even though a ring as "the man" is the holy grail of basketball accomplishment and the biggest factor in the goat conversation, it isn't the only factor - it only works to make Jordan #1 because he has SO MANY more holy grails than the 2nd place guy (6 to 3)

but having just 1 more isn't enough to seal it

Guys like Shaq and Magic have 3 like Lebron, and all the guys with 2 have other factors to offset their 1 less holy grail (Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Durant and Kawhi have 2, but other things to offset this.. i.e. more rings, winning heads-up battles in the championship, etc)
Absolute bullshit :oldlol: The two things you always post about are stats and first option rings, and LeBron has all but literally a handful of players beat in that regard. If rings are that important and can offset other advantages, then Jordan has no argument over Russell, who almost doubled him up in rings

[3ball]

Absolute bullshit :oldlol: The two things you always post about are stats and first option rings, and LeBron has all but literally a handful of players beat in that regard. If rings are that important and can offset other advantages, then Jordan has no argument over Russell, who almost doubled him up in rings
I agree that lebron has all but a few players beat in first option rings and stats

But only MJ has a massive lead in 1st option rings to where nothing else matters, while Lebron is merely tied with Magic/Shaq, and only has 1 more than Bird/Kareem/Love/Durant/Kawhi

so all those guys can make a case over him because they have other things to offset their 1 less holy grail/1st option ring

Regarding Russell - no defensive player ever won league MVP, so a zero-MVP player like Russell can't be in the goat conversation
.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs


Since there's never been a league MVP that wasn't a dominant offensive player, we know Bill Russell could never win a league MVP..

And there's no way a zero-MVP player is a goat candidate, or even a top 10 candidate.. Otoh, winning as "the man" (a team's best offensive player) is the holy grail of basketball accomplishment that defined the careers of guys like Kobe (when he won without Shaq), Dirk, Durant and others.. So MJ is goat for winning the most as "the man" (6 rings as "the man", while 2nd place has 3)

Russell is simply a product of an era that didn't have a 3-point line, and therefore lacked the spacing for good team offense - this allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to dominate
.

[colts19]

.
Thread Cliffs


Since there's never been a league MVP that wasn't a dominant offensive player, we know Bill Russell could never win a league MVP..

And there's no way a zero-MVP player is a goat candidate, or even a top 10 candidate.. Otoh, winning as "the man" (a team's best offensive player) is the holy grail of basketball accomplishment that defined the careers of guys like Kobe (when he won without Shaq), Dirk, Durant and others.. So MJ is goat for winning the most as "the man" (6 rings as "the man", while 2nd place has 3)

Russell is simply a product of an era that didn't have a 3-point line, and therefore lacked the spacing for good team offense - this allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to dominate
.

I'm confused, didn't Russell win MVP in 1958,1960,61,62 and 1965.

[3ball]

I'm confused, didn't Russell win MVP in 1958,1960,61,62 and 1965.

in the modern era/3-pointer basketball

I left that out of the cliffs.. nice catch



Revised Thread Cliffs


Since there's never been a league MVP in the modern era/3-pointer basketball that wasn't a dominant offensive player, we know Bill Russell could never win a league MVP..

And there's no way a zero-MVP player is a goat candidate, or even a top 10 candidate.. Otoh, winning as "the man" (a team's best offensive player) is the holy grail of basketball accomplishment that defined the careers of guys like Kobe (when he won without Shaq), Dirk, Durant and others.. So MJ is goat for winning the most as "the man" (6 rings as "the man", while 2nd place has 3)

Russell is simply a product of an era that didn't have a 3-point line, and therefore lacked the spacing for good team offense - this allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to dominate

[mr4speed]

I'm confused, didn't Russell win MVP in 1958,1960,61,62 and 1965.
Yes , Russell has 5 MVP's and the FMVP award did not even exist until 1969 and the first winner , I believe was Jerry West, even though he was on the losing Lakers team. If the FMVP had existed, how many would Russell have won? 5,6,7 or more? Also for me , Magic needs to come down to the 2 tier level, as the FMVP he won in 80 was actually voted for Kareem to receive the award after Magic's great game 6, but since KAJ was not present, the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award. KAJ had the better series and was why LA won the other 3 games.

[3ball]

Yes , Russell has 5 MVP's and the FMVP award did not even exist until 1969 and the first winner , I believe was Jerry West, even though he was on the losing Lakers team. If the FMVP had existed, how many would Russell have won? 5,6,7 or more? Also for me , Magic needs to come down to the 2 tier level, as the FMVP he won in 80 was actually voted for Kareem to receive the award after Magic's great game 6, but since KAJ was not present, the voters were asked to change their votes so Magic would win the award. KAJ had the better series and was why LA won the other 3 games.


^^^ Yes, in 2-pointer basketball with no spacing or viable team offense, thus allowing a 1-way defender to be an MVP-caliber player.

But in the modern era/3-pointer basketball, there's never been a league MVP that wasn't a dominant offensive player, so we know Bill Russell could never win a league MVP post-1980..

And there's no way a zero-MVP player is a goat candidate, or even a top 10 candidate.. Russell is simply a product of an era that didn't have a 3-point line, and therefore lacked the spacing for good team offense - this allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to dominate

Otoh, winning as "the man" (a team's best offensive player) is the holy grail of basketball accomplishment in the modern era that defined the careers of guys like Kobe (when he won without Shaq), Dirk, Durant and others.. So MJ is goat for winning the most as "the man" (6 rings as "the man", while 2nd place has 3)

[mr4speed]

^^^ Yes, in 2-pointer basketball with no spacing or viable team offense, thus allowing a 1-way defender to be an MVP-caliber player.

But in the modern era/3-pointer basketball, there's never been a league MVP that wasn't a dominant offensive player, so we know Bill Russell could never win a league MVP post-1980..

And there's no way a zero-MVP player is a goat candidate, or even a top 10 candidate.. Russell is simply a product of an era that didn't have a 3-point line, and therefore lacked the spacing for good team offense - this allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to dominate

Otoh, winning as "the man" (a team's best offensive player) is the holy grail of basketball accomplishment in the modern era that defined the careers of guys like Kobe (when he won without Shaq), Dirk, Durant and others.. So MJ is goat for winning the most as "the man" (6 rings as "the man", while 2nd place has 3)
I understand what you are saying but I have a problem penalizing Russell for playing when he played. Yes, the rules have changed, the court has changed, the players have changed but this is something Russell had no control over. He could only play against anyone or any team other than his own. IF Russell played today and his teams won 11 rings and he was not the leading scorer, I think there is no way he doesn't win MVP's and FMVP's given he was the same nucleus, leader, player-coach of his teams. Didn't Russell win MVP the same year Wilt averaged 50 points per game? Perhaps the old timers had a better grasp of what was more valuable than just scoring points? I think the problem stems from trying to "prove" one player is greater than another player, when it is a team game of 5 vs 5 and there are too many variables and that makes it impossible to come up with the "failproof" method or measurement. Just my 2 cents!

[3ball]

I understand what you are saying but I have a problem penalizing Russell for playing when he played. Yes, the rules have changed, the court has changed, the players have changed but this is something Russell had no control over. He could only play against anyone or any team other than his own. IF Russell played today and his teams won 11 rings and he was not the leading scorer, I think there is no way he doesn't win MVP's and FMVP's given he was the same nucleus, leader, player-coach of his teams. Didn't Russell win MVP the same year Wilt averaged 50 points per game? Perhaps the old timers had a better grasp of what was more valuable than just scoring points? I think the problem stems from trying to "prove" one player is greater than another player, when it is a team game of 5 vs 5 and there are too many variables and that makes it impossible to come up with the "failproof" method or measurement. Just my 2 cents!


Don't worry - you aren't penalizing him - he had no offense - the eye test quickly confirms that he was NOT ahead of his time offensively.. Elgin was.. Oscar was... Not Russell - he simply dominated an era that didn't have any spacing or good team offense, thus allowing a 1-way player to dominate and win the most..

You keep saying that I'm not considering what is valuable (points or other things) - I've been considering it precisely but you're ignoring it - I said Russell's 1-way defensive play was capable of being the biggest winner in 2-pointer/no-spacing basketball when team offense was impossible.. But once the 3-point line spread the floor/naturally changed where offensive players stood (even if they weren't taking the shot), team ortg's shot up and remained in the current 105-108 range for the last 30 years (since the 3-point line was introduced)..

and actually, only the last 2 seasons have ORtg's gone passed the 108 mark and into 109 and 110 territory, which shows you how much the current format of maximum threes/spacing has affected defenses and offenses.. because that's a massive increase and the first time those levels have ever been reached in hoops history - it's an absolute cakewalk to score and MJ would average at least 42-43, if not damn near 50.. that isn't an exaggeration.

[3ball]

Final Revised Thread Cliffs


Since there's never been a league MVP in the modern era/3-pointer basketball that wasn't a dominant offensive player - all 40 MVP's since 1980 were dominant offensive players - we know Bill Russell could never win a league MVP in the modern era.

And there's no way a zero-MVP player is a goat candidate, or even a top 10 candidate.. Russell is simply a product of an era that didn't have a 3-point line, and therefore lacked the spacing for good team offense - this allowed a 1-way defender like Russell to dominate and be MVP-caliber...

But the modern era requires a dominant offensive player - winning as "the man" (a team's best offensive player) has become the holy grail of basketball accomplishment that defined the careers of guys like Kobe (winning without Shaq), Dirk, Durant and others.. So MJ is goat for winning the most as "the man" (6 rings as "the man", while 2nd place has 3)