Rudy Gobert set 500 more screens than anyone else this year.

[Kblaze8855]

The Jazz average 14ppg off his screens.

I enjoy knowing that. I appreciate the information that would not have been there for the public 10-15 years ago.

When we talk about advances in stats....thats what im looking for. Things being tracked that we didnt in the past. Im not looking for:



uPER = (1 / MP) *
[ 3P
+ (2/3) * AST
+ (2 - factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG
+ (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 - (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))
- VOP * TOV
- VOP * DRB% * (FGA - FG)
- VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA - FT)
+ VOP * (1 - DRB%) * (TRB - ORB)
+ VOP * DRB% * ORB
+ VOP * STL
+ VOP * DRB% * BLK
- PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) - 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]







If you have a number to tell me how many of ___ turnovers are offensive fouls as opposed to being careless with the ball or even a teammate making an improper cut...ill read all about it.

What are some more basic new stats youre into?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

How long a player holds the basketball is pretty useful.

Defensive/Offensive box outs - another good one.

[Kblaze8855]

I would love to know who leads the league in boxing out.

[Kblaze8855]

I figured it would be Steven Adams boxing out for Westbrook but its not. Adams is number two. LaMarcus is number one.

[BigShotBob]

I figured it would be Steven Adams boxing out for Westbrook but its not. Adams is number two. LaMarcus is number one.

Because Pop would bench his bigs if they couldn't box out.

[NuggetsFan]

Advanced stats matter. I never use to care about them but it's clear across all sports professional sports teams do. NFL/NHL/MLB/NBA all have put tons of money behind it. They hire guys, and actually think there a valuable tool. Just being hard headed and stubborn to think they don't matter. Now obviously they need to be used with context and aren't the end all be all. Flat out ignorance to just ignore them tho.

I do agree that all the tracking information nowadays is huge. Especially with the technology we have. Knowing all these factually little details. Basically a shit ton of tracking data that teams can study on an Ipad while flying to the game.

[imdaman99]

Pretty sure he set the record for most dunks in a season? I could have sworn Shaq used to dunk 10 times a game :wtf:

[Real Men Wear Green]

uPER = (1 / MP) *
[ 3P
+ (2/3) * AST
+ (2 - factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG
+ (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 - (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))
- VOP * TOV
- VOP * DRB% * (FGA - FG)
- VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA - FT)
+ VOP * (1 - DRB%) * (TRB - ORB)
+ VOP * DRB% * ORB
+ VOP * STL
+ VOP * DRB% * BLK
- PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) - 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]Never liked PER. I remember when it first came out I would ask people that posted it what it meant and they had no clue. This equation isn't hard to understand (It's not calculus-level math, if you passed algebra you should be able to understand it) it's just random and manages to tell you nothing in an effort to tell you everything. Like, why are you multiplying defensive boards by 0.56? Why does the number in that equation need to be multiplied by missed free throws? I think PER is an attempt to make it easier to compare players across positions but if I am trying to figure out who is more valuable between Steph Curry and Anthony Davis this doesn't help. The stat line has always been more informative.

[BigShotBob]

Advanced stats matter. I never use to care about them but it's clear across all sports professional sports teams do. NFL/NHL/MLB/NBA all have put tons of money behind it. They hire guys, and actually think there a valuable tool. Just being hard headed and stubborn to think they don't matter. Now obviously they need to be used with context and aren't the end all be all. Flat out ignorance to just ignore them tho.

I do agree that all the tracking information nowadays is huge. Especially with the technology we have. Knowing all these factually little details. Basically a shit ton of tracking data that teams can study on an Ipad while flying to the game.

The most amazing thing about advanced stats is that players now have the benefit of manipulating their games to make their stats look better, yet MJ never had the benefit of doing so and he still crushes practically every player in history in advanced stats.

[NuggetsFan]

Never liked PER. I remember when it first came out I would ask people that posted it what it meant and they had no clue. This equation isn't hard to understand (It's not calculus-level math, if you passed algebra you should be able to understand it) it's just random and manages to tell you nothing in an effort to tell you everything. Like, why are you multiplying defensive boards by 0.56? Why does the number in that equation need to be multiplied by missed free throws? I think PER is an attempt to make it easier to compare players across positions but if I am trying to figure out who is more valuable between Steph Curry and Anthony Davis this doesn't help. The stat line has always been more informative.

I'm not saying specifically PER .. but all pro sports teams go by analytics now. There's a reason it's used. Was it Hollinger that was behind PER, I forget, but I know he's on a panel that MIT does for sports analytics, and I know he was hired by I believe the Grizzlies, and is took pretty seriously by the basketball community. The fact that randoms on a msgboard that are most likely old so grew up without these things think it doesn't matter is silly.

I was the same way thinking all that shit was wrong but like I said it's just being stubborn. Thinking you know better than everybody else. It makes sense some fans don't like it either, because it takes away the "fun" aspect and at the end of the day for fans it's about entertainment where as for owners/GM's/coaches etc. it's what's best. Which is why advanced statistics are now accepted by like 95% of teams.

[FKAri]

Never liked PER. I remember when it first came out I would ask people that posted it what it meant and they had no clue. This equation isn't hard to understand (It's not calculus-level math, if you passed algebra you should be able to understand it) it's just random and manages to tell you nothing in an effort to tell you everything. Like, why are you multiplying defensive boards by 0.56? Why does the number in that equation need to be multiplied by missed free throws? I think PER is an attempt to make it easier to compare players across positions but if I am trying to figure out who is more valuable between Steph Curry and Anthony Davis this doesn't help. The stat line has always been more informative.


The most amazing thing about advanced stats is that players now have the benefit of manipulating their games to make their stats look better, yet MJ never had the benefit of doing so and he still crushes practically every player in history in advanced stats.
And yet...

Presumably, these coefficients were fashioned to optimise the relative weighting of the various box score counting stats with wins or some such other ultimate goal as the objective function. Unfortunately, we do not know for certain how Hollinger generated these elements of PER. However, Hollinger himself revealed that their development was tweaked so as to ensure that Michael Jordan would hold the league-leading PER at PER’s inception. That alone renders the objectivity of PER somewhat compromised.

[NuggetsFan]

The most amazing thing about advanced stats is that players now have the benefit of manipulating their games to make their stats look better, yet MJ never had the benefit of doing so and he still crushes practically every player in history in advanced stats.

No idea why Jordan has to be involved? .. for the record he absolutely has cared about his stats at times. Didn't he have the stretch where he'd check with the scorers table about stuff? I believe during that crazy stretch he had when he was playing PG.

Either way there's not one advanced stat you can manipulate. There's so many, and some of them are affected by how you help your teammates and just in general how productive lineups are. Alot of them requires you to actually hit shots, make the right plays, and just have a general positive impact on the game.

Jordan having amazing advanced stats speaks for itself, cause he's the GOAT. Context, eye test, among other things are crucial too. Typically the best players grade out well.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm not saying specifically PER .. but all pro sports teams go by analytics now. There's a reason it's used. Was it Hollinger that was behind PER, I forget, but I know he's on a panel that MIT does for sports analytics, and I know he was hired by I believe the Grizzlies, and is took pretty seriously by the basketball community. The fact that randoms on a msgboard that are most likely old so grew up without these things think it doesn't matter is silly.

I was the same way thinking all that shit was wrong but like I said it's just being stubborn. Thinking you know better than everybody else. It makes sense some fans don't like it either, because it takes away the "fun" aspect and at the end of the day for fans it's about entertainment where as for owners/GM's/coaches etc. it's what's best. Which is why advanced statistics are now accepted by like 95% of teams.


Im sure every team has a scout who doesnt give a shit about a 200 part formula too.

These are billion dollar entities. They all have every version of everything. And in the end....one team wins. Probably the absurdly talented one built off player choice and the Bucks GM being concerned about Curry having ankle injuries.

These things "matter" as much as each individual decides they do. Which is kinda like a number of these stats come about. Someone decides what an offensive rebound is worth or a block...people start comparing players who played before half these things were even recorded ignoring that they are using different formulas by necessity(Hollinger called it "inelegant" but knew there was no other way...he just manipulated the numbers to get results he wanted).

Even if it made an impact it wouldnt much anymore if everyone used it to the extent you suggest. Be just like the As. May have started money ball...but they had their only real success by winning like everyone else...spending money. Won a world series. Made 2-3 more. Cheap owner takes over....they have not won since. First year of the new system they lost in the same round as before.....then missed the playoffs 7 of 8 seasons.

Once everyone has an advanced stats guy you end up winning and losing for the same reasons you used to. Being intelligent, knowing the game, and making the right decisions in the draft. The draft is the most important thing for every franchise and im not sure theres any evidence these numbers people have much of a clue there.

Hollinger has been a shot caller in Memphis for 6 years of worthless picks till Jackson. Morey has kept only one player he drafted in the last 12 years(Capela). Goes into a draft with 3 first round picks and gets nothing worth mentioning(one of them being a lottery pick afraid to fly who is now in MMA). Misses on two all stars who lasted to the second round that very year...just like everyone else.

Once a new normal is established you get back to what made teams win for 70 years.

Instinct and outsmarting people.

The Kings have not won in 60 years, the Pacers in 50ish, and the Hornets suck no matter what anyone does.

Just more of the same as we argue over exactly why thats the case.

Know who are great? Teams that hit in the draft which is damn near a dice roll mixed with instinct it seems...and teams that clear room for 2-3 max contracts at the same time. Get 2-3 stars and sign shooters doesnt really take a lot of math to grasp. Once everyones trying to do it who combines 35 numbers into 1 the best is kinda irrelevant.

We all laughed at Magics approach as opposed to Jerry West...but Jerry isnt exactly talking about VORP and win shares per 48. Just a great basketball mind. But if Magic can pry Anthony Davis out with another star and the last 2 good years of Lebron they will suddenly be good too. Wont make Magic any better or worse. As ive said...when everyone has the same approach....you fall back onto the same things to make a difference.

The draft, money, and being clever. Have a guy who can spot talent, with an owner who spends money, and have him not be an idiot....the rest falls into place. Lacking one of those 3 gets you a loser no matter what your advanced numbers or eye test say.

Its the same old game in the end.

[hold this L]

Come to the Bay Rudy. The Splash brothers would love you.

[sdot_thadon]

Advanced stats matter. I never use to care about them but it's clear across all sports professional sports teams do. NFL/NHL/MLB/NBA all have put tons of money behind it. They hire guys, and actually think there a valuable tool. Just being hard headed and stubborn to think they don't matter. Now obviously they need to be used with context and aren't the end all be all. Flat out ignorance to just ignore them tho.

I do agree that all the tracking information nowadays is huge. Especially with the technology we have. Knowing all these factually little details. Basically a shit ton of tracking data that teams can study on an Ipad while flying to the game.
Definitely agree as long as they serve a purpose, as in they shedding light on an aspect of the game that wasn't previously tracked. The best ones imo give further detail to the existing counting stats.

[sdot_thadon]

And yet...
Nice find, I remember when PER 1st became a thing but i never knew he modeled it that way, explains a lot.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I'm not saying specifically PER .. but all pro sports teams go by analytics now. There's a reason it's used. Was it Hollinger that was behind PER, I forget, but I know he's on a panel that MIT does for sports analytics, and I know he was hired by I believe the Grizzlies, and is took pretty seriously by the basketball community. The fact that randoms on a msgboard that are most likely old so grew up without these things think it doesn't matter is silly.

I was the same way thinking all that shit was wrong but like I said it's just being stubborn. Thinking you know better than everybody else. It makes sense some fans don't like it either, because it takes away the "fun" aspect and at the end of the day for fans it's about entertainment where as for owners/GM's/coaches etc. it's what's best. Which is why advanced statistics are now accepted by like 95% of teams.
If I ever need a computer design the recommendations of MIT would be important. But when it come to picking ballplayers not so much. You aren't addressing any of the problems with the equation I am talking about. Why are these coefficients being used the way that they are, weighting stats the way that they do? Posted in this thread (I haven't verified it myself) is the idea that Hollinger weighted the variables to make sure Jordan came out #1. I have no problem with the idea that MJ is the greatest ever but that isn't a good reason to be applying these coefficients if the goal is objective analysis.

Speaking as a random on a message board I ask what has happened in Memphis to prove that Hollinger and his PER are some kind of special advantage, seeing as I am supposed to be viewing this as some kind of special advantage I admit to being old by the standards of this board (for whatever that matters, as Hollinger is even older than I am)?

[Xiao Yao You]

Might be the most impressive stat I've seen yet for Rudy and that's saying something :bowdown:

[imdaman99]

Come to the Bay Rudy. The Splash brothers would love you.
Pretty sure he would rather get paid. Warriors couldn't afford him. But feel free to recruit him as well :lol

[brooks_thompson]

Do NBA players qualify for overtime pay?

[brooks_thompson]

The Jazz average 14ppg off his screens.

I enjoy knowing that. I appreciate the information that would not have been there for the public 10-15 years ago.

When we talk about advances in stats....thats what im looking for. Things being tracked that we didnt in the past. Im not looking for:



uPER = (1 / MP) *
[ 3P
+ (2/3) * AST
+ (2 - factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG
+ (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 - (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))
- VOP * TOV
- VOP * DRB% * (FGA - FG)
- VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA - FT)
+ VOP * (1 - DRB%) * (TRB - ORB)
+ VOP * DRB% * ORB
+ VOP * STL
+ VOP * DRB% * BLK
- PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) - 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]







If you have a number to tell me how many of ___ turnovers are offensive fouls as opposed to being careless with the ball or even a teammate making an improper cut...ill read all about it.

What are some more basic new stats youre into?

I love the Sport VU metrics like distance traveled, etc. My favorite stat last year was that John Wall was walking or standing still 76% of the time, second-to-last only to 40-year-old Dirk.

[NuggetsFan]

If I ever need a computer design the recommendations of MIT would be important. But when it come to picking ballplayers not so much. You aren't addressing any of the problems with the equation I am talking about. Why are these coefficients being used the way that they are, weighting stats the way that they do? Posted in this thread (I haven't verified it myself) is the idea that Hollinger weighted the variables to make sure Jordan came out #1. I have no problem with the idea that MJ is the greatest ever but that isn't a good reason to be applying these coefficients if the goal is objective analysis.

Speaking as a random on a message board I ask what has happened in Memphis to prove that Hollinger and his PER are some kind of special advantage, seeing as I am supposed to be viewing this as some kind of special advantage I admit to being old by the standards of this board (for whatever that matters, as Hollinger is even older than I am)?

But it's not just Hollinger and Memphis? Literally everybody is doing it. Like all FO's, GM's, and owners have decided they matter? Obviously to what degree is up for debate. Context matters. Eye test matters. It's not 2005 anymore. These people have been backed up by getting jobs. It's not just Memphis .. it's everyone, across most sports.

Advanced stats matter. Suggesting otherwise just outs you as a stubborn know it all. Are they everything? No. They matter tho, which is why millions of dollars get spent on the pay roll.

It's not even really an argument or subjective. Just a fact. Professional sports teams care about advanced numbers ... end of story. Thanks for coming out.

[NuggetsFan]

Advanced stats don't mattter = guys that wanna pitch an agenda and wanna live like profesional sports is a Disney movie. That love the sound of there own voice. That think them watching a game and what they take away with there eyes is a fact and is what everyone see's.

Professional sports teams = Let's look into it, hire these people, and factor them into our decisions.

It's really that simple :oldlol: I remember back in the msgboard posting days when we'd laugh at it. I was right there. I thought it was a joke. It's ok to be wrong and adjust your opinion. It's ok to admit that all these tools can help.

[Real Men Wear Green]

But it's not just Hollinger and Memphis? Literally everybody is doing it. Like all FO's, GM's, and owners have decided they matter? Obviously to what degree is up for debate. Context matters. Eye test matters. It's not 2005 anymore. These people have been backed up by getting jobs. It's not just Memphis .. it's everyone, across most sports.

Advanced stats matter. Suggesting otherwise just outs you as a stubborn know it all. Are they everything? No. They matter tho, which is why millions of dollars get spent on the pay roll.

It's not even really an argument or subjective. Just a fact. Professional sports teams care about advanced numbers ... end of story. Thanks for coming out.
Nowhere in this tantrum are you answering my question. Again: "Why are these coefficients being used the way that they are, weighting stats the way that they do?"

Do you even understand what you're praising? It's good to have players that can score, shoot, dribble, pass, block shots, get steals. Gee, thanks PER, what a revelation. But really, what has been the advantage for Memphis to bringing in Hollinger? How has PER advanced anyone or anything aside from Hollinger's career?

And just to be clear, I am nott attacking all of the new stats. Tracking who sets screens, the basis of this topic, for example? That's useful info. But what real knowledge is gained when a guy has a 25/8/6 season and Deep Thought tells us "42?"

[LoneyROY7]

Is there anything more beautiful to watch than a Rudy Gobert screen?

Shit's poetry in motion.

[SpaceJam2]

And yet...

Wow...

[NuggetsFan]

Nowhere in this tantrum are you answering my question. Again: "Why are these coefficients being used the way that they are, weighting stats the way that they do?"

Do you even understand what you're praising? It's good to have players that can score, shoot, dribble, pass, block shots, get steals. Gee, thanks PER, what a revelation. But really, what has been the advantage for Memphis to bringing in Hollinger? How has PER advanced anyone or anything aside from Hollinger's career?

And just to be clear, I am nott attacking all of the new stats. Tracking who sets screens, the basis of this topic, for example? That's useful info. But what real knowledge is gained when a guy has a 25/8/6 season and Deep Thought tells us "42?"


Are you dense? Seriously? I've never said it was about Memphis, or Hollinger. Point me to where I suggested that? Just that they were apart of it. That it was 1 example of many compared to what? Some stupid people on a msgboard that cling to the idea of the past?

I don't need to really argue anything. Professional sports teams have hired advanced stats guys. Across the board. End of story. That's it .. and that's all. They matter.

Only on ISH would someone argue against what is the norm :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Pro sports teams have made draft decisions by polling fans. Pro sports teams have asked if prospective players mothers sucked dick for money. Pro sports teams have selected players by race due to local demographics.

None of those things determines who the best player is.

There isn’t a team in the nba that doesn’t employ private investigators.

That doesn’t mean their findings determine who plays basketball better.

It means pro sports teams use all their resources to make decisions. A great many of those resources have nothing to do with if Bernard King is better at basketball than Glen Rice.

Teams in many cases don’t even care who the best player is as much as the best player for their situation and plans.

For our purposes here....often....not only are advanced stats irrelevant they can’t even be applied uniformly because half the players in question played before current stats were tracked.

People have been using “The team is doing it! Meaning im right!” using it like a pro team agreeing with them settled the argument for all time. Then half the time the team is wrong and the fan was right. In the end half the teams will suck no matter what. What “everyone” does doesn’t change that. Everyone could pick players by throwing chicken bones and half the teams would be good and half would be bad. The validity of a practice has never and will never be determined by people thinking its valid. Everyone does one thing till they do something else that makes the old way obsolete. Shit teams in the nfl have tried to draft handsome quarterbacks because of studies that say it impacts leadership acceptance. Doesn’t mean Joe Montana vs John Elway should factor in who has better looks.

Every team in pro sports is staffed by copycats, geniuses, and morons.

Them doing something does not prove that they determine who is better at their sport. If it did teams wouldn’t still miss by miles on prospects and make terrible signings. Teams have not figured out a fool proof method of making decisions. When they do everyone doing something will matter. As of now everyone does the same shit and half of them are wrong just like they used to be. When players stop being drafted and signed who can’t play....that’s when the nba has a system in place that makes their decisions factually better than people who disagree with them.

But it won’t happen because none of this really decides anything.

One of two things must be happening when you know every team has advanced stats people....and you also know most teams are poorly run.

Its either


Advanced numbers dont let these teams know what works....


or

Some teams dont use them....they simply employ people to provide them.


Either way it has no bearing on a question of Joel Embiid vs Hakeem and those are exactly the kinds of arguments advanced stats are most used for on places like this.

NBA teams arent trying to answer those questions with advanced stats to begin with.

[nayte]

Blaze do u think big guys will ever get back to what they used to be.. As in being the focal point like Hakeem. Robinson etc. Or are they now relegated to screens and box outs ets.

[Kblaze8855]

I don't need to really argue anything. Professional sports teams have hired advanced stats guys. Across the board. End of story. That's it .. and that's all. They matter.

I remember a guy on here telling me that about the Lakers signing Kobe to that last monumental deal that set them back a decade. "Theyre doing it. end of story. They agree with me. Who are you? The TEAM knows!" like it made it correct.

If "But theyre doing it tho....." made it correct the fact that none of them did it 20 years ago would have made that correct and advanced stats should never have been developed to begin with. There is no end game. Its 100 ways of looking at the same information presented a different way with the deciding factor being impossible to grasp. There is no right way. Theres just the way someone is doing it at the moment with a dozen copycats looking for the secret. If the popular way were "right" everyone would be able to use it to win. But they cant.

I remember reading a study that showed the thing most often correlated with winning(aside from spending more money) was simply giving yourself the most chances to fail. Teams that draft down for more picks will almost always end up better on average in all 3 major american sports. Teams that create cap space and sign guys on a wish and a prayer.....the teams that keep trying over and over to give themselves the most chances to hit on a prospect or a signing....long term....tend to do better.

Every team is run by people who know what they are doing. But they are human. They fall in love with a prospect or a player and limit their chances to hit on one because they HAVE to have the one they love.

When you step back and see the trends long term....its almost just luck. Its getting the most guys in through the door for a look because no matter how smart your front office is....and they are all smart...sometimes you draft Hasheem Thabeet over James Harden and Steph Curry. Sometimes you draft Bennett #1 and Giannis goes 15 picks later.

Theres no way to eliminate these errors through numbers. And theres no evidence we are even getting closer.

Teams are gonna have 200 hours of film and every number a kid has generated since 8th grade in 2030 and still draft a scrub over a hall of famer or sign _____ to 4 years 160 million when a much better guy gets 5 years 120 million for a team that goes on to win the title with him.

There is no way to measure basketball. When there is....teams wont make these massive mistakes. And that will never ever ever happen.

And knowing you cant measure it is the whole basis of the anti stats belief system. And its virtually indisputable.

You just cant take it to mean more than it does.

Like I said if I owned a team id let my GM have whatever numbers he felt he needed. Why limit resources? Id let him look at the players middle school grades if he insisted.

Still wouldnt tell me if Jason Kidd was better at basketball than Chris Paul.

Having the information doesnt mean it gives you the answers you seek. It just means....you have the information. You have millions to spend. Why not have all information that exists?

[Kblaze8855]

Blaze do u think big guys will ever get back to what they used to be.. As in being the focal point like Hakeem. Robinson etc. Or are they now relegated to screens and box outs ets.


Many will be the focal point but short term I dont seem them being it in the same way those guys were. Give it another 10 years when every player in the draft grew up wanting to be Steph and KD.....guys like Hakeem are gonna be more like Giannis and KD. Still 6'11''.....but far different skill sets. Some will still technically be at the 4 and the 5...and the focal point of their teams offense...I just dont think they will play on the block.

Go watch Bol Bol footage. Thats a future 7'2'' player.

The closest we get to an old school center will be like...Embiid...who mostly faces up from 16-25 feet.

[nayte]

Many will be the focal point but short term I dont seem them being it in the same way those guys were. Give it another 10 years when every player in the draft grew up wanting to be Steph and KD.....guys like Hakeem are gonna be more like Giannis and KD. Still 6'11''.....but far different skill sets. Some will still technically be at the 4 and the 5...and the focal point of their teams offense...I just dont think they will play on the block.

Go watch Bol Bol footage. Thats a future 7'2'' player.

The closest we get to an old school center will be like...Embiid...who mostly faces up from 16-25 feet.

Thanks for the answer. I don't like it but yeah. Interesting enough from what I've read Embiid likes to play closer to the hoop but analytics say otherwise. I might be wrong but still there is a game for the close up bigs