WOAT 2nd option championship production [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Dray n Klay

10-09-2016, 01:10 PM

Duncan and Dirk have had some relatively weak second options at times.. Hakeem too before they got Drexler (who averaged ~20 ppg in their second championship).. Who was the "second option" on those Pistons teams I wonder

Duncan and Dirk were OUTPLAYED by their 2nd options in the Finals.

Manu outplayed Duncan in the 2005 Finals

Terry outplayed Dirk in the 2011 Finals

How can it be WOAT production, if they outplayed the 1st option in the Finals??

SCdac

10-09-2016, 01:23 PM

Duncan and Dirk were OUTPLAYED by their 2nd options in the Finals.

Manu outplayed Duncan in the 2005 Finals

Terry outplayed Dirk in the 2011 Finals

How can it be WOAT production, if they outplayed the 1st option in the Finals??

Why are you assuming 2005 was Duncan's worst supporting cast? ... Ginobili made his first AS game that season

2003 on the other hand... Duncan's best teammates were Stephen Jackson and second year Tony Parker

2003 Finals

Duncan - 24 ppg / 17 rpg / 5 apg (lead team for the playoffs) / 5 bpg / 44 mpg

Parker - 14 ppg (.39 FG%) / 4 apg

Robinson - 11 ppg / 7 rpg

Jackson - 10 ppg (.38 FG%)

Manu - 9 ppg (.35 FG%)

SCdac

10-09-2016, 01:24 PM

And Jason Terry has gotten hot and come up big in the playoffs (made 9 three's in one game to knock out the defending champ Lakers iirc?) ... but come on, is he even a top-80 player all time?

3ball

10-09-2016, 01:24 PM

LeBron won a championship with this 2nd option production:

15.9 points 4.6 rebounds 4.8 assists 45.7% FG

Jordan won 3 rings with similar stats from his 2nd option - Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during entire 1996-1998 playoffs.

This included 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals (worst-ever for a 2nd option), and 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals.

Btw, Jordan's 3rd best player (Rodman) averaged 4/8 in 1997 playoffs and wasn't even a starter in 1998 playoffs (4/8 in 1998 Finals).. Lebron's never won a ring with a mediocre, role player 3rd option like Jordan did for all 6 of his rings.

Dray n Klay

10-09-2016, 01:27 PM

Jordan won 3 rings with similar stats from his 2nd option - Pippen averaged 17/7/5 on 40.8% during entire 1996-1998 playoffs.

This included 15 ppg on 34% in 1996 Finals (worst-ever for a 2nd option), and 15 ppg on 41% in 1998 Finals.

Btw, Jordan's 3rd best player (Rodman) averaged 4/8 in 1997 playoffs and wasn't even a starter in 1998 playoffs (4/8 in 1998 Finals).. Lebron's never won a ring with a mediocre, role player 3rd option like Jordan did for all 6 of his rings.

17/7/5 with GOAT defense >>> 15/4/4 on average defense :confusedshrug:

Jordan never won a single championship with as bad or worse 2nd option production than 2013 LeBron. Go ahead, post the stats.

FreezingTsmoove

10-09-2016, 01:29 PM

17/7/5 with GOAT defense >>> 15/4/4 on average defense :confusedshrug:

Jordan never won a single championship with as bad or worse 2nd option production than 2013 LeBron. Go ahead, post the stats.

Wade was playing elite defense... look at what he did to Harden

3ball

10-09-2016, 01:32 PM

17/7/5 with GOAT defense >>> 16/5/5 on average defense :confusedshrug:

Jordan never won a single championship with as bad or worse 2nd option production than 2013 LeBron. Go ahead, post the stats.

So why did Lebron win the 2013 championship with playoff stats of 25.9/8.4/6.6, which would be the worst stats of Jordan's playoff career?

Clearly, Lebron had a super-ton of help in 2013 - infact, other than 2016 Cavs, the 2013 Heat were Lebron's most stacked team ever.. He had the 2nd best shooter ever (Ray Allen) as his FOURTH option and an 11-time all-star as his third option.. That's insane

Dray n Klay

10-09-2016, 01:35 PM

So why did Lebron win the 2013 championship with stats of 25.9/8.4/6.6, which would be the worst stats of Jordan's playoff career?

Because LeBrons 26/9/7 was a Higher Proportion of his teams points/rebounds/assists, than Jordan ever achieved :confusedshrug:

Hence he was able to win with a worse 2nd option than Jordan ever had

SCdac

10-09-2016, 01:38 PM

yeah, I don't think 2013 is a good example of Lebron carrying a weak team... they were arguably the best version of the those Heat out of all them.

At one point after getting a great shotblocker (birdman), they won a 27-game win streak, which is the second longest ever... and they had finally filled out their team (vs. 2011, with Bibby, Ilguaskas, Dampier, etc)

http://gamedayr.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/miami-heat-27-game-win-streak-meme.png

SCdac

10-09-2016, 01:41 PM

and no comment on this? ... in 1999, Duncan's second best option was a post-surgery Robinson who averaged 17 ppg (.42 FG%) in the Finals, which was good, but not Magic-Kareem production for a duo

2003 Finals

Duncan - 24 ppg / 17 rpg / 5 apg (lead team for the playoffs) / 5 bpg / 44 mpg

Parker - 14 ppg (.39 FG%) / 4 apg

Robinson - 11 ppg / 7 rpg

Jackson - 10 ppg (.38 FG%)

Manu - 9 ppg (.35 FG%)

Dray n Klay

10-09-2016, 01:43 PM

yeah, I don't think 2013 is a good example of Lebron carrying a weak team... they were arguably the best version of the those Heat out of all them.

So a 15/4/4 2nd option and a 12/6 3rd option isn't WOAT level bad??

3ball

10-09-2016, 01:44 PM

Because LeBrons 26/9/7 was a Higher Proportion of his teams points/rebounds/assists, than Jordan ever achieved

That isn't true - Jordan scored a FAR higher proportion of his team's points than Lebron, while getting equal assists on a per possession basis in the playoffs thru 31 years old..

The only reason Jordan's assists were a lower proportion of his team's assists is because Jordan's teams had superior teamwork and more assists overall, which lowered Jordan's proportion of team assists.

Furthermore, the stats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12606535&postcount=10) show that all of Lebron's key teammates (Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh, Love) saw their assists decline alongside Lebron, while Jordan's off-ball presence increased his teammates assists.. This obviously increases Lebron's proportion of team assists while reducing Jordan's, even though Jordan's assists were equal to Lebron's on a per possession basis.

SCdac

10-09-2016, 01:49 PM

So a 15/4/4 2nd option and a 12/6 3rd option isn't WOAT level bad??

see: 2003 Spurs

GrapeApe

10-09-2016, 02:14 PM

So a 15/4/4 2nd option and a 12/6 3rd option isn't WOAT level bad??

First of all, those numbers are wrong and you know it. Are you really that desperate where you feel the need lie about the numbers?

Last I checked, There's more than 3 players on a basketball team. The 2013 Heat were the best version of the big-3 era Heat. Not necessarily the best version of the big-3, but the best overall team. They were outstanding defensively, had great chemistry, veteran savvy, and championship pedigree.

I always hear Lebron stans talking about how the Cavs beat a 73 win team. The 2013 Heat won 66 games and 27 in a row. If you're going to tout the Warriors as a historically good team, you have to do the same for the 2013 Heat.

ArbitraryWater

10-09-2016, 02:18 PM

Wade in 2013 was just disgusting in the playoffs, yea.

tmacattack33

10-09-2016, 02:21 PM

Dirk maybe.

And maybe someone on the Pistons with Chauncey Billups. His second option wouldn't even be obvious...that team was very consistent throughout, with no major stars

Dray n Klay

10-09-2016, 02:38 PM

First of all, those numbers are wrong and you know it. Are you really that desperate where you feel the need lie about the numbers?

Last I checked, There's more than 3 players on a basketball team. The 2013 Heat were the best version of the big-3 era Heat. Not necessarily the best version of the big-3, but the best overall team. They were outstanding defensively, had great chemistry, veteran savvy, and championship pedigree.

I always hear Lebron stans talking about how the Cavs beat a 73 win team. The 2013 Heat won 66 games and 27 in a row. If you're going to tout the Warriors as a historically good team, you have to do the same for the 2013 Heat.

Okay then, post Wade and Boshs actual stats in the 2013 playoffs :confusedshrug:

No rounding up or down.

Dray n Klay

10-09-2016, 02:38 PM

Wade in 2013 was just disgusting in the playoffs, yea.

The funny thing is that he managed to be EVEN WORSE a year later.

Bankaii

10-09-2016, 03:02 PM

Wade was playing elite defense... look at what he did to Harden
They played the Thunder in 2012, not 2013, dipshit.

ArbitraryWater

10-09-2016, 03:06 PM

The funny thing is that he managed to be EVEN WORSE a year later.

It was pathetic. Forever dropped out of the top 20 with those runs.

GrapeApe

10-09-2016, 05:04 PM

It was pathetic. Forever dropped out of the top 20 with those runs.

Yet the same list that ranks Lebron 2nd all-time (which I'm sure you agree with) has Wade ranked 17th. It seems like not everyone holds the same belief you do about Wade forever dropping out of the top 20.

JebronLames

10-09-2016, 05:04 PM

LeBron won a championship with this 2nd option production:

15.9 points 4.6 rebounds 4.8 assists 45.7% FG

Has Kobe/Jordan ever won a championship with worse 2nd option help? :confusedshrug:
You're being too nice by posting Fg% instead of TS%.
He also clogged the lane every time he was out there.
Ruined chemistry and rhythm of the offense
Below average defense

Heat win convincingly in 6 vs the spurs if wade does not play.
Only second option I can think of on a championship team that the team would have still won without him. Maybe 2014 spurs.

3ball

10-09-2016, 05:45 PM

2013 Heat win convincingly in 6 vs the spurs if wade does not play.

:biggums: :whatever: :yaohappy:

Lebron fans take the cake for ignoring facts

The reason the series went 7 games is because Lebron got 17, 18, and 17 points in the first 3 games.

ArbitraryWater

10-09-2016, 06:03 PM

Yet the same list that ranks Lebron 2nd all-time (which I'm sure you agree with) has Wade ranked 17th. It seems like not everyone holds the same belief you do about Wade forever dropping out of the top 20.

This list is a joke, Wade isnt ranked 17 anywhere else lol, or within the top 20.

GrapeApe

10-09-2016, 07:42 PM

This list is a joke, Wade isnt ranked 17 anywhere else lol, or within the top 20.

24/6/5/2/1 on 49% career averages
30/8/5/2.2/1.3 on 49% peak
Top 10 career PER
12x all-star
3x all-defense
3x NBA champion
FMVP
Scoring title
Top 15 in playoff points and steals (and likely rising)
Top shot blocking guard in playoff history

That's a top 20 resume. There isn't 20 players with a better combination of stats, individual accolades, team success, and peak play. Wade is in extremely elite company and he's still playing at an all-star level, averaging 21/6/4/1/1 on 47% with a 22+ PER in last year's playoffs.

Bankaii

10-09-2016, 07:50 PM

:biggums: :whatever: :yaohappy:

Lebron fans take the cake for ignoring facts

The reason the series went 7 games is because Lebron got 17, 18, and 17 points in the first 3 games.
Yet the Bulls were able to close out the Sonics with MJ averaging 23 points on 36%.
Is it because he faced weaker competition or his team was stacked?

Keep in mind MJ took more FGA(20) than Lebron(18) on worse FG% and averaged 6 less rebounds and 1.5 less assists.

SouBeachTalents

10-09-2016, 08:05 PM

You're being too nice by posting Fg% instead of TS%.
He also clogged the lane every time he was out there.
Ruined chemistry and rhythm of the offense
Below average defense

Heat win convincingly in 6 vs the spurs if wade does not play.
Only second option I can think of on a championship team that the team would have still won without him. Maybe 2014 spurs.

Just idiotic :oldlol: They absolutely do not win Games 4 or 7 of the Finals without Wade

Dray n Klay

10-09-2016, 08:26 PM

Just idiotic :oldlol: They absolutely do not win Games 4 or 7 of the Finals without Wade

What exactly did Wade do in those games that Chalmers, Battier, Miller couldnt? :confusedshrug:

Nilocon165

10-09-2016, 08:36 PM

What exactly did Wade do in those games that Chalmers, Battier, Miller couldnt? :confusedshrug:
Average 27.5 ppg in those games

Dray n Klay

10-09-2016, 08:38 PM

Average 27.5 ppg in those games

Ok, that's like battier, charmers, Miller averaging 9 points each

9 X 3 = 27

Nothing they couldn't do :confusedshrug:

Nilocon165

10-09-2016, 08:43 PM

Ok, that's like battier, charmers, Miller averaging 9 points each

9 X 3 = 27

Nothing they couldn't do :confusedshrug:
Do you find it funny to just post stupid shit on a message board?

Nilocon165

10-09-2016, 08:43 PM

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/738/025/db0.jpg

3ball

10-09-2016, 09:03 PM

Yet the Bulls were able to close out the Sonics with MJ averaging 23 points on 36%.

Is it because he faced weaker competition or his team was stacked?

It's because the Bulls were half-assing it at that point in the series.

After Jordan's 31 ppg on 46% got the Bulls a 3-0 lead, the ENTIRE TEAM played like shit because they had 3 chances to win 1 game..

Otoh, Lebron's shitty play thru the first 3 games (17.3 ppg) forced his team to go 7 games and necessitated Ray Allen's miracle.

Yet the Bulls were able to close out the Sonics

Jordan's 22/9/7 led the team in Game 6, while holding Hawkins to 4 points, or 12 points below his average - this is significant, since the Bulls WON by 12, and everyone else let their man go off: Pippen let Schrempf get 23 points on 59%, Harper let Payton get 21 points on 70%, and Rodman let Kemp get 18/10 on 47%.

So Jordan's team-leading scoring, assists and defense was the hero of Game 6... And in Game 5, he shot 9-18 for 26 points, so he only had 1 bad game in the series - Game 4.. And we know why his Game 4 was bad - right before the game, he told a reporter (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfAoaAb3Nc0&t=42m32s) that "this is the most relaxed I've ever been in a Finals"... A 3-0 blowout lead will do that.

GrapeApe

10-09-2016, 09:24 PM

Ok, that's like battier, charmers, Miller averaging 9 points each

9 X 3 = 27

Nothing they couldn't do :confusedshrug:

You're not even trying anymore.

But hey, if Battier, Chalmers, and Miller averaged 8.3/3.7/2.3 on 45%, the Heat didn't even need Lebron! Nothing they couldn't do.

Dray n Klay

10-09-2016, 09:27 PM

You're not even trying anymore.

But hey, if Battier, Chalmers, and Miller averaged 8.3/3.7/2.3 on 45%, the Heat didn't even need Lebron! Nothing they couldn't do.

You can't admit that Wade was ruining the Heats offensive efficiency and spacing while on the court in the 2013 playoffs??

LostCause

10-09-2016, 09:47 PM

You can't admit that Wade was ruining the Heats offensive efficiency and spacing while on the court in the 2013 playoffs??

Wade played good defense that series, and the spacing was a matter of neither Bron nor Wade being able to space the floor to benefit each other. Both of them were being stonewalled due to this. Both of them played better when spacing was available by either one of them not being on the floor

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/19/4444164/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-heat-spurs-nba-finals-game-6

fourkicks44

10-09-2016, 10:23 PM

Duncan and Dirk were OUTPLAYED by their 2nd options in the Finals.

Manu outplayed Duncan in the 2005 Finals

Terry outplayed Dirk in the 2011 Finals

How can it be WOAT production, if they outplayed the 1st option in the Finals??

Terry didn't outplay Dirk in the 2011 Finals.

Terry definitely outplayed Lebron in the 2011 Finals.

Prime_Shaq

10-09-2016, 11:36 PM

Hakeem?

Bawkish

10-10-2016, 12:00 AM

LOL at the logic "we don't need Player A's 30 ppg coz we got players B,C & D 8 ppgs to suffice"

J Shuttlesworth

10-10-2016, 12:20 AM

LeBron won a championship with this 2nd option production:

15.9 points 4.6 rebounds 4.8 assists 45.7% FG

Has Kobe/Jordan ever won a championship with worse 2nd option help? :confusedshrug:
One player that has won a championship with worse 2nd option help was Shaq in the 2000 Finals

2nd option: 15.6 PPG, 4.6 RPG, 4.2 APG 36.7% FG

SouBeachTalents

10-10-2016, 12:33 AM

'94 Hakeem & '03 Duncan were worse

3ball

10-10-2016, 12:39 AM

Wade played good defense that series, and the spacing was a matter of neither Bron nor Wade being able to space the floor to benefit each other. Both of them were being stonewalled due to this. Both of them played better when spacing was available by either one of them not being on the floor

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/19/4444164/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-heat-spurs-nba-finals-game-6

I agree with the article, but I don't think that Wade/Lebron's lack of shooting and ability to space for each other was the ONLY reason the Heat don't play their best with both on the floor.

Obviously, both players are ball-dominators who achieve their maximum production as ball-dominant players - but unfortunately, only 1 ball-dominator can dribble at a time..

The problem is that NEITHER player has a sophisticated off-ball game they can use to achieve maximum production.. For example, neither guy can isolate QUICKLY upon the catch like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ4nFTJ8FSw&t=2m05s), or this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_xbtK6DeGo&t=0m57s), which would allow them to thrive off-ball while the other guy dominates the ball.
.

Jasper

10-10-2016, 10:04 AM

LeBron won a championship with this 2nd option production:

15.9 points 4.6 rebounds 4.8 assists 45.7% FG

Has Kobe/Jordan ever won a championship with worse 2nd option help? :confusedshrug:

Poster preppin for a mediocre season for Curry , so numbers will look less to brag it up after finals.

:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

Dragonyeuw

10-10-2016, 10:47 AM

Ok, that's like battier, charmers, Miller averaging 9 points each

9 X 3 = 27

Nothing they couldn't do :confusedshrug:

I see, so the Heat really didn't need Lebron then. 25ppg could have been achieved by Allen at 10ppg, Chalmers at 10ppg, Chris Anderson's 4ppg, Rashard Lewis's .7ppg, and as an added bonus Joel Anthony's .5ppg. How didn't we see this before? :confusedshrug:

Dray n Klay

10-10-2016, 11:42 AM

I see, so the Heat really didn't need Lebron then. 25ppg could have been achieved by Allen at 10ppg, Chalmers at 10ppg, Chris Anderson's 4ppg, Rashard Lewis's .7ppg, and as an added bonus Joel Anthony's .5ppg. How didn't we see this before? :confusedshrug:

I could further elaborate what I meant in that post, but you wouldn't be able to comprehend it.

Dragonyeuw

10-10-2016, 12:03 PM

I could further elaborate what I meant in that post, but you wouldn't be able to comprehend it.

You're correct. I don't speak retarded inbred c**t lingo.

LostCause

10-10-2016, 01:21 PM

Ok, that's like battier, charmers, Miller averaging 9 points each

9 X 3 = 27

Nothing they couldn't do :confusedshrug:

No lie this is legit one of the worst posts I've seen since joining the site, regardless of what "point" you were going for, there's a very obvious one and it's really, really dumb

AirBonner

10-10-2016, 01:38 PM

No lie this is legit one of the worst posts I've seen since joining the site, regardless of what "point" you were going for, there's a very obvious one and it's really, really dumb
You have been on this site almost 10 years. I think you need more time to decide the worst post.

LostCause

10-10-2016, 01:45 PM

You have been on this site almost 10 years. I think you need more time to decide the worst post.

I don't even get what you're saying

I've been here 10 years but I need more time? Or are you saying I haven't (typo) been here 10 years so I need more time?

Not sure why everyone defaults to throwing around alt accusations. I think yal that have them and just troll here have no lives, but if it makes yal feel better assuming everyone else is the same, go for it