Many have started to take Lebron's greatness as a defender for granted

[IGOTGAME]

everyone says they appreciate it but when it comes to an all time list he gets shafted. He doesn't get talked about with the great small forwards because he wasn't asked to do it every play (i mean, he was the entire offense for years). But lets be real, everytime his number has been called on the biggest stage defensively he has answered the call. Shutting down whole offensive schemes with his versatility or even shutting down MVP point guard at their peak.

Respect that man. Jordan gets it, but Lebron was an even better defender.

[Kblaze8855]

Respect that man. Jordan gets it, but Lebron was an even better defender.

https://s12.postimg.org/9jm4ugim5/14292308_1430910850268790_5535345735265072659_n.jp g

[BigKAT]

Someone posted some interesting stats on opposing players FG vs various defenders.

Kawahi came at an astounding #2 with players shooting about -7.2% when being guarded by him. current Lebron came at 1st with -11% or something.

I don't have the stats but yeah, seems like Lebron still has it.

He doesn't have that much recognition though, does he? In defensive all-nba and the likes.

[IGOTGAME]

Someone posted some interesting stats on opposing players FG vs various defenders.

Kawahi came at an astounding #2 with players shooting about -7.2% when being guarded by him. current Lebron came at 1st with -11% or something.

I don't have the stats but yeah, seems like Lebron still has it.

He doesn't have that much recognition though, does he? In defensive all-nba and the likes.

he has the recognition from the all defensive team but people like to throw those away when talking about defensive comparisons (see Kobe Bryant).

I've been on here hating on Lebron for years. But the one thing I've never understand is how people underrate his defense.

[Ben Simmons]

He's not really quick enough or long enough to be a great man defender these days, but your right with his size, speed, and versatility he's an elite defender.

He's not better than Jordan, man to man. But team defense you could probably argue if you wanted to

People dont realize that the key to shutting down the Warriors offense was Lebron's versatility.

[ArbitraryWater]

Someone posted some interesting stats on opposing players FG vs various defenders.

Kawahi came at an astounding #2 with players shooting about -7.2% when being guarded by him. current Lebron came at 1st with -11% or something.

I don't have the stats but yeah, seems like Lebron still has it.

He doesn't have that much recognition though, does he? In defensive all-nba and the likes.


The usual field goal percent of the shooter that the player is defending
LeBron - 44.8%
Kawhi - 44.9%

Defense Dashboard

2pt FGs - Players shot 8.2% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
2pt FGs - Players shot 7.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
3pt FGs - Players shots 2.7% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
3pt FGs - Players shot 1.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
Overall - Players shot 7.4% worse than their average when defended by LeBron on 8.4 Defended FGs Per Game
Overall - Players shot 5.7% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi on 9.4 Defended FGs Per Game

Play type

When they were the closest isolation defender
LeBron - 69 possessions, .59 points per possession allowed, 28.8% eFG
Kawhi - 61 possessions, .69 points per possession allowed, 31% eFG

When they were the closest defender to the PnR ball handler
LeBron - 144 possessions, .66 ppp allowed, 37.1 eFG
Kawhi - 243 possessions, .65 ppp allowed, 35.8 eFG

When they were the roll man defender
LeBron - 10 possessions, .7 ppp, 38.9 eFG
Kawhi - 30 possessions, .5 ppp, 27.8 eFG

Post defense
LeBron - 43 possessions, .77 ppp, 40 eFG
Kawhi - 31 possessions, .77 ppp, 41.7 eFG

On spot up shooters
LeBron - 210 possessions, .8 ppp, 41.6 eFG
Kawhi - 200 possessions, .88 ppp, 43.6 eFG

Hand-offs
LeBron - 43 possessions, .49 ppp, 33.9 eFG
Leonard - 58 possessions, .72 ppp, 39.5 eFG

Off screens
LeBron - 78 possessions, .74 ppp, 40.8 eFG
Kawhi - 96 possessions, 1.05 ppp, 51.2 eFG

goat

[jrjim]

At his peak, he might be the best playoff wing defender ever. Not even a stan-like exaggeration

[Smoke117]

He doesn't play great defense consistently game in and game out...when you're a player like that you are going to be criticized. Doesn't really matter what you have the potential for if you don't actually do it regularly...greatness as far as defense is pretty much about being consistent...he's frankly only had 3 or 4 years of his career where he really gave that kind of effort and deserves to be defined as a great defender.

[Prometheus]

He doesn't play great defense consistently game in and game out...when you're a player like that you are going to be criticized. Doesn't really matter what you have the potential for if you don't actually do it regularly...greatness as far as defense is pretty much about being consistent...he's frankly only had 3 or 4 years of his career where he really gave that kind of effort and deserves to be defined as a great defender.

I agree with this if you are talking about the regular season. LeBron's defense in the playoffs has been elite every year.

[ClipperRevival]

everyone says they appreciate it but when it comes to an all time list he gets shafted. He doesn't get talked about with the great small forwards because he wasn't asked to do it every play (i mean, he was the entire offense for years). But lets be real, everytime his number has been called on the biggest stage defensively he has answered the call. Shutting down whole offensive schemes with his versatility or even shutting down MVP point guard at their peak.

Respect that man. Jordan gets it, but Lebron was an even better defender.

Jesus Christ. Yeah, if you started watching bball from game 5 on to the 2016 finals to the present.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jesus Christ. Yeah, if you started watching bball from game 5 on to the 2016 finals to the present.

MJ stan shook

[Im Still Ballin]

How many times do I have to post this? LeBron can very much be argued a better defender than Jordan. The stats back this up, he just had arguably the GOAT defensive finals performance

Kobe 1996: Didn't place
Kobe 1997: Didn't place
Kobe 1998: Didn't place
Kobe 1999: Didn't place
Kobe 2000: 5th
Kobe 2001: 11th
Kobe 2002: 3rd
Kobe 2003: 8th
Kobe 2004: 10th
Kobe 2005: Didn't place
Kobe 2006: Didn't place
Kobe 2007: 24th
Kobe 2008: 5th
Kobe 2009: 7th
Kobe 2010: 12th
Kobe 2011: 11th
Kobe 2012: Didn't place
Kobe 2013: Didn't place
Kobe 2014: Didn't place
Kobe 2015: Didn't place
Kobe 2016: Didn't place

LeBron 2004: Didn't place
LeBron 2005: Didn't place
LeBron 2006: Didn't place
LeBron 2007: Didn't place
LeBron 2008: Didn't place
LeBron 2009: 2nd
LeBron 2010: 4th
LeBron 2011: 9th
LeBron 2012: 4th
LeBron 2013: 2nd
LeBron 2014: 6th
LeBron 2015: 13th
LeBron 2016: 11th

Kobe in years placed average position: 10th

LeBron in years placed average position: 6th

Kobe's best 5 years: 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th (Average of 6th)

LeBron's best 5 years: 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 6th (Average of 4th)

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 50.7 (48637 minutes played)

LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 58.4 (38478 minutes played)

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: -0.6

LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +1.9

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares season (4.5), is on par with LeBron's 8th best Defensive Win Shares season (4.5)

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 105
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 102

PLAYOFFS:

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 106
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 101

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 7.3 (8641 minutes played)
LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 12.8 (7871 minutes played)

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +0.7
LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +3.2

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4), is on par with LeBron's 5th best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4)

//

Even the most objective subjective analysis hands down favors LeBron

The only thing that won't favor LeBron is the opinion (subjective) of Kobe stans

LeBron is visually and empirically a better defender

Opponents' shooting against LeBron in Games 5, 6, and 7 in the Finals

Overall: 2.7/12.7, 21.1%, opponents usually shoot 47.9%, -26.8

Threes: .7/5, 13.3%, opponents usually shoot 40.4%; -27%

Twos: 2/7.7, 26.1%, opponents usually shoot 53.3%, -27.2%

Less than 6 ft: 1/5, 20%, opponents usually shoot 62.4%, -42.4%

Less than 10 ft: 1.3/6, 22.2%, opponents usually shoot 57.3%; -35.1%

Greater than 15 ft: 1/6.3, 15.8%; opponents usually shoot 40.5%; -24.7%

LeBron 2016 Playoffs (21 games)

3.2/10.2 Defensive FGs defended

Overall, held opponents to 31.8% FG (Their average FG% was 45.9%

This is a differential of -14.1% (He held opponents to -14.8% their average FG%), which is by far the best mark... For comparison, Draymond was next best at -8.4%

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...?sort=GP&dir=1

To break it down even further to perimeter defense and Rim protection..

3PT DEFENSE

LeBron was the Cavs best 3pt defender, and along with Livingtson and context taken into account, the best 3pt defenders

0.9/3.8 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponent 3pt shooters to 24.1% (Their average 3PT% was 36.7%)

This is a differential of -12.6%

Only one guy who played 15+ playoff games (Shawn Livingston) had a slightly better differential (Abet on lower volume)

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...USMINUS&dir=-1

RIM PROTECTION

1.4/3.3 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponents at the rim to 43.5%

The best rim protection % on the Cavs

For reference Bogut held opponents to 46.6%, and Tristan Thompson 49.2%

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...&sort=GP&dir=1

...

Here's also some stuff comparing him and DPOY winner Kawhi Leonard in the regular season;

The usual field goal percent of the shooter that the player is defending
LeBron - 44.8%
Kawhi - 44.9%

Defense Dashboard

2pt FGs - Players shot 8.2% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
2pt FGs - Players shot 7.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
3pt FGs - Players shots 2.7% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
3pt FGs - Players shot 1.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
Overall - Players shot 7.4% worse than their average when defended by LeBron on 8.4 Defended FGs Per Game
Overall - Players shot 5.7% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi on 9.4 Defended FGs Per Game

Play type

When they were the closest isolation defender
LeBron - 69 possessions, .59 points per possession allowed, 28.8% eFG
Kawhi - 61 possessions, .69 points per possession allowed, 31% eFG

When they were the closest defender to the PnR ball handler
LeBron - 144 possessions, .66 ppp allowed, 37.1 eFG
Kawhi - 243 possessions, .65 ppp allowed, 35.8 eFG

When they were the roll man defender
LeBron - 10 possessions, .7 ppp, 38.9 eFG
Kawhi - 30 possessions, .5 ppp, 27.8 eFG

Post defense
LeBron - 43 possessions, .77 ppp, 40 eFG
Kawhi - 31 possessions, .77 ppp, 41.7 eFG

On spot up shooters
LeBron - 210 possessions, .8 ppp, 41.6 eFG
Kawhi - 200 possessions, .88 ppp, 43.6 eFG

Hand-offs
LeBron - 43 possessions, .49 ppp, 33.9 eFG
Leonard - 58 possessions, .72 ppp, 39.5 eFG

Off screens
LeBron - 78 possessions, .74 ppp, 40.8 eFG
Kawhi - 96 possessions, 1.05 ppp, 51.2 eFG

Finals Averages...
2.3 Blocks a game
2.6 Steals a game

2016 Playoff Averages
2.3 Steals a game
1.3 Blocks a game

In the last 3 games, LeBron averaged 3 blocks and 3 steals per game

LeBron had the second highest playoff DPM (5.8) in a championship winning playoff run of all time only behind Ben Wallace in '04 (6.0)

[NBAGOAT]

one thing I've noticed now is people not being impressed with his team defense when that's actually the strength of his game. His athleticism allows him to cover so much ground. He doesn't put in a complete effort even in the playoffs now so I get it but he was absolutely elite from 09-13. He's been the anchor for a lot of his team since he's never played with a great rim protector.

[egokiller]

What do you mean "started" to take his defense for granted?

Jason Terry took him for granted and styled on him in the 2011 finals, something that MJ would never let happen.

It's about time the mods put an end to these lebron threads which attempt to embellish him over what he actually is.

If you need to know what he is, go back and read the posts. If it hasn't sunking in by now, it never will.

This guy couldn't hold MJ's glass of Gatorade, and these dreamers need to quit pretending that he can. It's a joke.

[BigKAT]

How many times do I have to post this? LeBron can very much be argued a better defender than Jordan. The stats back this up, he just had arguably the GOAT defensive finals performance

Kobe 1996: Didn't place
Kobe 1997: Didn't place
Kobe 1998: Didn't place
Kobe 1999: Didn't place
Kobe 2000: 5th
Kobe 2001: 11th
Kobe 2002: 3rd
Kobe 2003: 8th
Kobe 2004: 10th
Kobe 2005: Didn't place
Kobe 2006: Didn't place
Kobe 2007: 24th
Kobe 2008: 5th
Kobe 2009: 7th
Kobe 2010: 12th
Kobe 2011: 11th
Kobe 2012: Didn't place
Kobe 2013: Didn't place
Kobe 2014: Didn't place
Kobe 2015: Didn't place
Kobe 2016: Didn't place

LeBron 2004: Didn't place
LeBron 2005: Didn't place
LeBron 2006: Didn't place
LeBron 2007: Didn't place
LeBron 2008: Didn't place
LeBron 2009: 2nd
LeBron 2010: 4th
LeBron 2011: 9th
LeBron 2012: 4th
LeBron 2013: 2nd
LeBron 2014: 6th
LeBron 2015: 13th
LeBron 2016: 11th

Kobe in years placed average position: 10th

LeBron in years placed average position: 6th

Kobe's best 5 years: 3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 8th (Average of 6th)

LeBron's best 5 years: 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 6th (Average of 4th)

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 50.7 (48637 minutes played)

LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 58.4 (38478 minutes played)

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: -0.6

LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +1.9

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares season (4.5), is on par with LeBron's 8th best Defensive Win Shares season (4.5)

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 105
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 102

PLAYOFFS:

Kobe Career Defensive Rating: 106
LeBron Career Defensive Rating: 101

Kobe Career Defensive Win Shares: 7.3 (8641 minutes played)
LeBron Career Defensive Win Shares: 12.8 (7871 minutes played)

Kobe Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +0.7
LeBron Career Defensive Box Plus Minus: +3.2

Kobe's best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4), is on par with LeBron's 5th best Defensive Win Shares playoff total (1.4)

//

Even the most objective subjective analysis hands down favors LeBron

The only thing that won't favor LeBron is the opinion (subjective) of Kobe stans

LeBron is visually and empirically a better defender

Opponents' shooting against LeBron in Games 5, 6, and 7 in the Finals

Overall: 2.7/12.7, 21.1%, opponents usually shoot 47.9%, -26.8

Threes: .7/5, 13.3%, opponents usually shoot 40.4%; -27%

Twos: 2/7.7, 26.1%, opponents usually shoot 53.3%, -27.2%

Less than 6 ft: 1/5, 20%, opponents usually shoot 62.4%, -42.4%

Less than 10 ft: 1.3/6, 22.2%, opponents usually shoot 57.3%; -35.1%

Greater than 15 ft: 1/6.3, 15.8%; opponents usually shoot 40.5%; -24.7%

LeBron 2016 Playoffs (21 games)

3.2/10.2 Defensive FGs defended

Overall, held opponents to 31.8% FG (Their average FG% was 45.9%

This is a differential of -14.1% (He held opponents to -14.8% their average FG%), which is by far the best mark... For comparison, Draymond was next best at -8.4%

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...?sort=GP&dir=1

To break it down even further to perimeter defense and Rim protection..

3PT DEFENSE

LeBron was the Cavs best 3pt defender, and along with Livingtson and context taken into account, the best 3pt defenders

0.9/3.8 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponent 3pt shooters to 24.1% (Their average 3PT% was 36.7%)

This is a differential of -12.6%

Only one guy who played 15+ playoff games (Shawn Livingston) had a slightly better differential (Abet on lower volume)

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...USMINUS&dir=-1

RIM PROTECTION

1.4/3.3 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponents at the rim to 43.5%

The best rim protection % on the Cavs

For reference Bogut held opponents to 46.6%, and Tristan Thompson 49.2%

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...&sort=GP&dir=1

...

Here's also some stuff comparing him and DPOY winner Kawhi Leonard in the regular season;

The usual field goal percent of the shooter that the player is defending
LeBron - 44.8%
Kawhi - 44.9%

Defense Dashboard

2pt FGs - Players shot 8.2% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
2pt FGs - Players shot 7.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
3pt FGs - Players shots 2.7% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
3pt FGs - Players shot 1.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
Overall - Players shot 7.4% worse than their average when defended by LeBron on 8.4 Defended FGs Per Game
Overall - Players shot 5.7% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi on 9.4 Defended FGs Per Game

Play type

When they were the closest isolation defender
LeBron - 69 possessions, .59 points per possession allowed, 28.8% eFG
Kawhi - 61 possessions, .69 points per possession allowed, 31% eFG

When they were the closest defender to the PnR ball handler
LeBron - 144 possessions, .66 ppp allowed, 37.1 eFG
Kawhi - 243 possessions, .65 ppp allowed, 35.8 eFG

When they were the roll man defender
LeBron - 10 possessions, .7 ppp, 38.9 eFG
Kawhi - 30 possessions, .5 ppp, 27.8 eFG

Post defense
LeBron - 43 possessions, .77 ppp, 40 eFG
Kawhi - 31 possessions, .77 ppp, 41.7 eFG

On spot up shooters
LeBron - 210 possessions, .8 ppp, 41.6 eFG
Kawhi - 200 possessions, .88 ppp, 43.6 eFG

Hand-offs
LeBron - 43 possessions, .49 ppp, 33.9 eFG
Leonard - 58 possessions, .72 ppp, 39.5 eFG

Off screens
LeBron - 78 possessions, .74 ppp, 40.8 eFG
Kawhi - 96 possessions, 1.05 ppp, 51.2 eFG

Finals Averages...
2.3 Blocks a game
2.6 Steals a game

2016 Playoff Averages
2.3 Steals a game
1.3 Blocks a game

In the last 3 games, LeBron averaged 3 blocks and 3 steals per game

LeBron had the second highest playoff DPM (5.8) in a championship winning playoff run of all time only behind Ben Wallace in '04 (6.0)

Damn.
Where do you guys get those stats?
Aint on basketball reference that's for sure.

Got a site you might care sharing?

[TheWinningFam]

:rant :rant :rant :cry: :cry: :cry:
Ok pal, Settle down.

[NuggetsFan]

You could make a case for LeBron being the most versatile defender ever tho. He's there with KG, Rodman etc. To me his defense was arguably the greatest thing about his finals performance. His help defense is off the chart, he's an elite roamer, he's always the QB of team defense similar to KG, can guard anybody for a few possessions, and was even protecting the hoop. You could make the argument he has more impact defensively because of his range than any other star player of All-Time. Doesn't guard the rim like Duncan or the perimeter like Jordan but does more things defensively overall than they did.

LeBron's an absurd defensive weapon that's honestly been kinda under utilized in his career due to him having to carry the load so much earlier in his career. Even last years finals without Love/Kyrie. This year he utilized to the fullest and it was absurd. Perimeter D, help D, defending the post/rim, switching onto whoever, leading and directing teammates. It was a flawless performance.

[NuggetsFan]

This guy couldn't hold MJ's glass of Gatorade, and these dreamers need to quit pretending that he can. It's a joke.

Because perimeter defense is the flashy part of defense for non C's/PF's that people focus on for guards/swing men. LeBron has never locked people up like Jordan or even a young Kobe on the perimeter. He's elite but in terms of All-Time there's probably 15-20 guys you'd take over him.

Jordan is the GOAT and better than LeBron for defensive impact is one of the few things LeBron has on him IMO. LeBron can do things defensively Jordan couldn't. He's 6'8 and what like 260 when he played with Miami yet has the quickness to defend guards and strength to guard PF's.

He's a unique and absurd defensive weapon. He's got lazy at points in the regular season but people are kidding themselves if they don't think Jordan ever let up defensively at points in the regular season. LP wasn't available and the 24/7 news cycle that exists today didn't exist back than. You can literally re-watch every single defensive possession in 2016 and have entire detailed write ups on twitter 20 minutes after the game :lol Even comparing it to like 2005 things it's an entirely different animal.

[K.dot ShowTime]

LeBrom is the GOAF

[Lebron23]

He's one of the best defenders of all time.

[ArbitraryWater]

Damn.
Where do you guys get those stats?
Aint on basketball reference that's for sure.

Got a site you might care sharing?

He links it right there in his post :lol stats nba dot com

[LiLharvard]

I always thought Lebron was an all-defensive tier 1 type of guy for so many years but after watching so many clips of old broken down twilight years Pierce beat his ass (one occasion dropping 50 in a close out game) it made me seriously question my thinking. Lebron is fake defense no hustle but he is the best player in the game of fkin whinging babies who get everything given to them and nothing earnt (under line that last bit)

[jrjim]

I always thought Lebron was an all-defensive tier 1 type of guy for so many years but after watching so many clips of old broken down twilight years Pierce beat his ass (one occasion dropping 50 in a close out game) it made me seriously question my thinking. Lebron is fake defense no hustle but he is the best player in the game of fkin whinging babies who get everything given to them and nothing earnt (under line that last bit)

That was before Lebron became great on D in 09.

[LostCause]

Because perimeter defense is the flashy part of defense for non C's/PF's that people focus on for guards/swing men. LeBron has never locked people up like Jordan or even a young Kobe on the perimeter. He's elite but in terms of All-Time there's probably 15-20 guys you'd take over him.

Jordan is the GOAT and better than LeBron for defensive impact is one of the few things LeBron has on him IMO. LeBron can do things defensively Jordan couldn't. He's 6'8 and what like 260 when he played with Miami yet has the quickness to defend guards and strength to guard PF's.

He's a unique and absurd defensive weapon. He's got lazy at points in the regular season but people are kidding themselves if they don't think Jordan ever let up defensively at points in the regular season. LP wasn't available and the 24/7 news cycle that exists today didn't exist back than. You can literally re-watch every single defensive possession in 2016 and have entire detailed write ups on twitter 20 minutes after the game :lol Even comparing it to like 2005 things it's an entirely different animal.

Seems like the most accurate post

I can agree with most of it though for perimeter defense only, I'd say the number of people I'd take over Bron goes down to about 8-12 instead of 15-20, assuming he's fully locked in