Where do you rank KG?

[Young X]

I'm not sure if there were more than 15 greater players in NBA history.

I have him around that range and if he had been in a better situation in his prime more people would agree with me.

[ClipperRevival]

Call me crazy but I take him over Barkley/Malone/Dirk when you consider the all-around impact he had. Very good offensive game, great passer for a 4, great mid-range game, can take guys off the dribble occassionally ala Hakeem and his D was GOAT level when you consider his VERSATILITY. Some rim protection, able to defend smalls on the perimeter and just amazingly athletic.

Same boat as you. Can't think of too many above him at the 15ish mark. Dude was impactful on both ends.

[Lebron&Kyrie]

goat

[SamuraiSWISH]

He's definitely IMO and quite easily on an individual level better than Barkley, Malone, and especially Dirk.

Now, it's an unpopular opinion but championships aside. I personally think he's a better player than Tim Duncan as well.

I'm glad we have what I feel like is an evolutionary version of him albeit with better ball handling in Anthony Davis. If he no longer has regression and continues to improve.

Kobe, KG, and Duncan all gone within the same spring / summer. Never have I felt older.

:biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

Top 20, not near Duncan, bit below Dirk...

get this:

I know all the overrating that the typical KG crew likes to do, but this dude had just TWO 20+ ppg / 50+% shooting series' in his PLAYOFF CAREER....

but apparently he's better than Duncan but just in the wrong environment, lol. Dirk also whopped his ass H2H. He outrebounded KG as well IIRC?

If you guys are fine with that type of go to scoring, the premier asset in Basketball, be my guest.

[Young X]

^ This would be a problem if he wasn't a multi-dimensional player that did so many things well outside of scoring.

Scoring is like the weakest part of his skillset. His defense/rebounding/passing/versatility are what make him special.

And even then, he's still good enough a scorer to accumulate over 26k points.

Phenomenal.

[FKAri]

He's like the greatest role player ever. If I were making an all-time starting 5, I'd heavily consider having him on the team. He's so versatile which also makes him tough to rank.

[Milbuck]

Anywhere from 14-16. Too many arguments for a bunch of different players, but I think 14-16 is a fair range for him.
Top 20, not near Duncan, bit below Dirk...

get this:

I know all the overrating that the typical KG crew likes to do, but this dude had just TWO 20+ ppg / 50+% shooting series' in his PLAYOFF CAREER....

but apparently he's better than Duncan but just in the wrong environment, lol. Dirk also whopped his ass H2H. He outrebounded KG as well IIRC?

If you guys are fine with that type of go to scoring, the premier asset in Basketball, be my guest.
I have no idea why people continue to judge a player like KG on his scoring as if the meat of his game wasn't being a generational defensive beast and one of the best passers at his position ever. It's like ripping on Dirk for not being a defensive anchor, as if he isn't there primarily for his offense. Every player is different and judging them on "LOL PPGZZZ" standards is pretty simplistic.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Anywhere from 14-16. Too many arguments for a bunch of different players, but I think 14-16 is a fair range for him.
I have no idea why people continue to judge a player like KG on his scoring as if the meat of his game wasn't being a generational defensive beast and one of the best passers at his position ever. It's like ripping on Dirk for not being a defensive anchor, as if he isn't there primarily for his offense. Every player is different and judging them on "LOL PPGZZZ" standards is pretty simplistic.
ArbitraryWater is a retarded Dirk stan. KG is closer to Dirk offensively than Nowitzki is to Garnett defensively. They both have one MVP and one Chip. Everything else career wise is easily and definitively in Garnett's favor.

22 ppg 8 rpg 3 apg ... non existent defensively

vs

18 ppg 10 rpg 4 apg ... DPOY, 9x All Defense 1st Team (tied for most ever)

He'd be on my greatest team of all-time. Just so versatile. Offensively and defensively. Along with GP, Jordan, Kobe, and Pippen as one of the greatest defenders of all time.

[Sarcastic]

Somewhere in the top 25 all time. Ahead of Dirk.

[NBAGOAT]

good argument for top 15 but maybe slightly outside of it. Definitely top 20.

[RRR3]

Ahead of Dirk

[lilteapot]

I have him top 15

[Kool Boy]

I have him at #19 exactly, if you want me to list I will.

[Sarcastic]

I have him at #19 exactly, if you want me to list I will.

Let's see what you got.

[Kool Boy]

Let's see what you got.

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Magic Johnson
7. Tim Duncan
8. Jerry West
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaq
11. Jullius Erving
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Wilt Chamberlain
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Charles Barkley
16. Karl Malone
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Moses Malone
19. Kevin Garnett

[SamuraiSWISH]

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Magic Johnson
7. Tim Duncan
8. Jerry West
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaq
11. Jullius Irving
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Wilt Chamberlain
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Charles Barkley
16. Karl Malone
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Moses Malone
19. Kevin Garnett
Really good list.

Apart from the fact I'd flip Kobe and West. I'd also be inclined to flip Hakeem and Dr. J as well. Not sure about Russell at 3 either, but I can see the argument.

I think Erving, Oscar, and Wilt deserve to be grouped together honestly. Highly influential players in the beginning stages of the craft, and neither were actually world class winners like the men above them on the list.

[Kool Boy]

Really good list.

Apart from the fact I'd flip Kobe and West. I'd also be inclined to flip Hakeem and Dr. J as well. Not sure about Russell at 3 either, but I can see the argument.

I think Erving, Oscar, and Wilt deserve to be grouped together honestly. Highly influential players in the beginning stages of the craft, and neither were actually world class winners like the men above them on the list.
God Bless

[NBAGOAT]

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Magic Johnson
7. Tim Duncan
8. Jerry West
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaq
11. Jullius Erving
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Wilt Chamberlain
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Charles Barkley
16. Karl Malone
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Moses Malone
19. Kevin Garnett

who do you have 20th? I'm guessing it's Dirk or Drob or is it someone else

[Sarcastic]

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Magic Johnson
7. Tim Duncan
8. Jerry West
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaq
11. Jullius Erving
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Wilt Chamberlain
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Charles Barkley
16. Karl Malone
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Moses Malone
19. Kevin Garnett

I mean it's not awful. But Wilt is better than 13. He has like every record in the world. West is not better than Shaq. Kobe is not top 10.

Honestly your 15-19 is legit.

[AintNoSunshine]

To think he is below Dirk is ridiculous. One of the most impactful defender while being great at scoring and passing on the offensive end. Top 20.

[LilEddyCurry]

I do not understand why people rank Dirk ahead of KG. There are two sides to the game of basketball.

[ShawkFactory]

I remember legit arguments that were had in the 02-05 time span with KG and Duncan. This is Tim Duncan, one of the top 6-9 best players that have ever lived, having a counterpart that matched him at his PEAK.

Outside of maybe Rodman perhaps, KG was the most versitale defender that the game has seen.

He had the kind of fiery temperament that brought the best out of people.

And while his offensive game wasn't quite like Duncan's was, he still had the ability to score in a lot of different ways.

One of the best players that I've seen since I've been watching basketball.

Another great one to hang em up. Him, Kobe, and Duncan will be missed.

[bizil]

When looking at numbers and versatility as a package, the MOST versatile big man of all time FLAT OUT!! And overall, the 2nd most versatile of all time after Lebron. The reason why is BECAUSE u have a 7ft. freak athlete capable of defending big swingmen to centers. Which MEANS he could defend SG to C!

From there, his peak was 24 points, 5-6 dimes, and 13-14 rebounds. And he did a lot of that in a point forward capacity. LITERALLY bringing up the the rock as a point power forward! So GOAT wise, u could argue KG a top 3 PF of all time. Peak wise, I think u could argue the same thing.

But BY FAR, he's the most unique PF ever! Overall GOAT wise, KG deserves to be mentioned as a top 20-25 caliber legend. He TOTALLY redefined the PF position. Only reason why Duncan is SO MUCH higher GOAT wise is BECAUSE of rings. Since KG left his prime years, there HASN'T been a PF close to duplicating his all around skillset. If there has EVER been a player ahead of his time, it would be KG. Even in the league today, there is NO 7 footer who has his versatility in terms of positional and numbers as a package.

[Kool Boy]

who do you have 20th? I'm guessing it's Dirk or Drob or is it someone else
Elgin Baylor

[Harison]

Around Top15, and its mostly because he was unlucky with crap franchise and coaching (too loyal as well). Imagine him on LA or Spurs entire career? He would be in Top10, easily.

[Dragonyeuw]

My players 11-20 go like this:

Kobe
Oscar
West
Moses
K. Malone
Dr.J
Barkley
Admiral
Garnett
Dirk

I have a hard time ranking after Moses, so ask me next week and my order will be different. And, I feel like I need to put Wade in there, but I'm not sure who I would remove to make room for him. Petit and Baylor should be mentioned too.... I find the rankings between 15-25 very hard, much, much harder than picking out a top 10.

[Papaya Petee]

I have him around 16-19 range.
If not for the robbery of giving Pierce the finals MVP KG would be top 12-15 for me. He would have literally won every major award that way.

Imagine a 24/14/6 versatile efficient big man in his prime with a resume of
MVP
Title
FMVP
DPOY
Numerous All NBA teams All Defense teams All Star Teams

Damnit Pierce

[NBAGOAT]

My players 11-20 go like this:

Kobe
Oscar
West
Moses
K. Malone
Dr.J
Barkley
Admiral
Garnett
Dirk

I have a hard time ranking after Moses, so ask me next week and my order will be different. And, I feel like I need to put Wade in there, but I'm not sure who I would remove to make room for him. Petit and Baylor should be mentioned too.... I find the rankings between 15-25 very hard, much, much harder than picking out a top 10.

mine is very similar I might have Dr.J higher than Moses but I might be giving Dr.J too much love.

[ArbitraryWater]

Anywhere from 14-16. Too many arguments for a bunch of different players, but I think 14-16 is a fair range for him.
I have no idea why people continue to judge a player like KG on his scoring as if the meat of his game wasn't being a generational defensive beast and one of the best passers at his position ever. It's like ripping on Dirk for not being a defensive anchor, as if he isn't there primarily for his offense. Every player is different and judging them on "LOL PPGZZZ" standards is pretty simplistic.

I effectively mixed ppg with FG%, and offered a pretty low standard, too... 20+/50+% isnt raising the bar very high. Nobody with that kind of scoring (some of his series' are straight up terrible shooting wise) will ever be close to Duncan, who's on the same tier defensively.... no amount of 'just happened to be on the wrong team' will work.

Two 20+/50+% series' for his life ffs :facepalm 'but defense!' Me for one I'll never understand how people rank him above Dirk, Dirk clearly seperated himself from KG for the rest of their careers from '05-on, everything else would be revisionist history. KG will simply never inflict that kind of offensive/scoring/4th quarter impact, which I'd take any day over the defensive monster who can't put the ball in the bucket himself when it matters.


I have him around 16-19 range.
If not for the robbery of giving Pierce the finals MVP KG would be top 12-15 for me. He would have literally won every major award that way.

Imagine a 24/14/6 versatile efficient big man in his prime with a resume of
MVP
Title
FMVP
DPOY
Numerous All NBA teams All Defense teams All Star Teams

Damnit Pierce

such a robbery nobody at the time believed KG deserved it :lol Anyway, if you do think it was KG, then that shouldnt completely alter his placement by 1-7 spots :biggums:

[ArbitraryWater]

ArbitraryWater is a retarded Dirk stan. KG is closer to Dirk offensively than Nowitzki is to Garnett defensively. They both have one MVP and one Chip. Everything else career wise is easily and definitively in Garnett's favor.

22 ppg 8 rpg 3 apg ... non existent defensively

vs

18 ppg 10 rpg 4 apg ... DPOY, 9x All Defense 1st Team (tied for most ever)

He'd be on my greatest team of all-time. Just so versatile. Offensively and defensively. Along with GP, Jordan, Kobe, and Pippen as one of the greatest defenders of all time.

You mention defensive first teams but leave out that Dirk has more All NBA teams than KG which take into account BOTH offense and defense... lol.

[BigKAT]

Most people here have him at Top 20 from what I see.
Seems legitimate. And it is fairly impressive, though with the rate new players are climbing, I won't be surprised if he's top 25-30 in 10 years.

[CuterThanRubio]

Dirk/KG > Duncan

KG was playing with scrubs in his prime

Does Trenton Hassell ring a bell?

[Dragonyeuw]

Most people here have him at Top 20 from what I see.
Seems legitimate. And it is fairly impressive, though with the rate new players are climbing, I won't be surprised if he's top 25-30 in 10 years.

Difficult to say, but I don't see many up and coming/current stars cracking the top 20. The two obvious choices are Durant and Curry, but I'm curious to see their dynamics over the next 5 years. It's possible their team-up, while likely leading to titles, may also work against them down the line when it comes to individual GOAT rankings. We'll see...no-one playing right now for me has top 20 ranking potential asides from those two (maybe A.Davis) but we'll have to see how the next generation of talent develops over the next decade and the body of work they produce. I'm looking specifically at someone like Karl Anthony Towns. Durant, to me, is one of the best players ever strictly as an offensive talent, but he needs to come through in the playoffs. There's going to a shitload of egg on his face if this move to Golden State doesn't result in multiple championships.

[aj1987]

1. Michael Jordan
2. LeBron James
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Magic Johnson
7. Tim Duncan
8. Jerry West
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Shaq
11. Jullius Erving
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Wilt Chamberlain
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Charles Barkley
16. Karl Malone
17. Dwyane Wade
18. Moses Malone
19. Kevin Garnett
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

Absolutely horrendous list.

[Dragonyeuw]

mine is very similar I might have Dr.J higher than Moses but I might be giving Dr.J too much love.
I'm also wondering if I'm giving the Admiral too much love. He was one of the great regular season players ever, but that play didn't quite translate to the playoffs. If I was looking to replace his spot for someone like Wade, I'd be comparing Wade's 2005-2013 to the Admirals 89-98.

[ArbitraryWater]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

Absolutely horrendous list.

Pretty much... just TERRIBLE. And that Swish guy agreed with it :biggums:

[Jasper]

everyone goes high like the last guy retired is the best :facepalm

KG is a top 25 (.) 1 ring / but carried a franchise for a decade :applause: :bowdown: :applause:

[ArbitraryWater]

https://i.gyazo.com/5d863c53fd9bfc7c42bbafd357c30b33.png
https://twitter.com/CVBelieve/status/29546532494

lol

[jayfan]

Garnett v. Webber ?









.

[Dragonyeuw]

Garnett v. Webber ?









.

Webber has zero argument over KG, player-wise or career-wise.

[Kool Boy]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

Absolutely horrendous list.
please explain why instead of just making blanket statements?

[feyki]

17-22 .

[LukeWalton]

Below Duncan, Below Dirk, Above Barkley

[ArbitraryWater]

Someone just started a pretty popular poll on twitter

https://i.gyazo.com/cd9ada06a9f67f2825d576ad3dc72173.png

Dirk seems to be the consensus

[aj1987]

please explain why instead of just making blanket statements?
LeBron and Russell over KAJ. Bird at #5. West over Shaq and Hakeem. Moses at #18. Etc..

[brownmamba00]

At his peak he might've been the best 'real' PF of all time. I say this because Duncan played more like a traditional Center for most of his career.

No disrespect to Dirk but I'll take 04 and 08 KG over any version of him including 2011 where his team mates went nuts in the playoffs.
KG was legit crazy.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f19/DreamYaotmac5/kgfunnypic-1.gif

[Kool Boy]

LeBron and Russell over KAJ. Bird at #5. West over Shaq and Hakeem. Moses at #18. Etc..
LeBron is probably the best all around player of All Time and Russell has 11 titles. People have Bird an Magic real close and I think Bird is slightly better than Magic, just not as flashy. West is the logo and is arguably one of the best shooters of all time. Moses IMO is a bit overrated and was pretty inefficient for a big man.

[egokiller]

He's definitely IMO and quite easily on an individual level better than Barkley, Malone, and especially Dirk.

Now, it's an unpopular opinion but championships aside. I personally think he's a better player than Tim Duncan as well.

I'm glad we have what I feel like is an evolutionary version of him albeit with better ball handling in Anthony Davis. If he no longer has regression and continues to improve.

Kobe, KG, and Duncan all gone within the same spring / summer. Never have I felt older.

:biggums:

No he's not better than Duncan lol.

[egokiller]

LeBron and Russell over KAJ. Bird at #5. West over Shaq and Hakeem. Moses at #18. Etc..

Lebron can never be over legends like bird and magic due to 2011 and many other things. This narrative needs to stop. Magic and Bird had 100x the mental toughness and will always be more respected. Someone who started watching in 2003 may have a different opinion.

[Kool Boy]

Lebron can never be over legends like bird and magic due to 2011 and many other things. This narrative needs to stop. Magic and Bird had 100x the mental toughness and will always be more respected. Someone who started watching in 2003 may have a different opinion.
No offense but you are retarded.

[kshutts1]

I go by tiers, and KG is in my second tier. He's a completely different player than, but has a similar impact to, Duncan and the rest of that tier. Just put in a lesser situation.

First tier:

Wilt
Jordan
Bird
Shaq
Russell
Magic
Oscar
Lebron
Kareem

Second tier:
Duncan
Kobe
KG
Hakeem


And just an FYI, I do not rank Baylor, Pettit, Cousy. I don't know enough about them relative to their peers, though at quick "glance" I'd say all three of them belong in the second or third (likely third) tier.

[SamuraiSWISH]

No he's not better than Duncan lol.
Really?

Career Stats

KG: 18 ppg, 10 rpg, DPOY, 12x All Defense, MVP
TD: 19 ppg, 11 rpg, 15x All Defense, 2x MVP

Such a whopping difference.

Only true non similarity between career success was the way better franchise, talent, and coach Duncan played under or with. KG didn't get that kind of treatment until he was exiting his prime in 2008.

And even with injury he still basically had his team playing at the same levels into June like Duncan.

[plowking]

I always thought he was overrated. He was essentially a Scottie Pippen type that got to lead a franchise for a while. Basically what would have happened for Scottie if MJ was never there. Probably would have led them to some playoff runs, maybe mad a run at MVP, but Scottie was never that first option.

Same with KG. He is a 2nd fiddle. No way is he a top 20 player ever. Never understood the crazy love this guy got... It seems as if this guy is judged on his own separate type of scale that other players don't get.

I don't see how you take him over a guy like Robinson at his best, or Barkley at his, or Durant for example. All guys sitting on the edge of that top 20 list.
To be more specific, how is he better than guys like Malone, Barkley and Dirk? Those guys were reliable first options. KG wasn't. He wasn't a guy that could take on the scoring load. Not to mention those other guys weren't missing the playoffs in their prime, and all had memorable playoff runs as the man.

[aj1987]

LeBron is probably the best all around player of All Time and Russell has 11 titles.
LeBron doesn't yet have the resume to be ranked #2 and KAJ was a better player than Russell by all metrics. Going by 11 rings, there's no way that LeBron should be even close to #2.


People have Bird an Magic real close and I think Bird is slightly better than Magic, just not as flashy.
He's still not top 5 though.


West is the logo and is arguably one of the best shooters of all time.
What does that have to do with him being in the top 10? Shaq and Hakeem have significantly better resumes than West.


Moses IMO is a bit overrated and was pretty inefficient for a big man.
How is Moses inefficient, when he's at 57% TS for his career? Not to mention the 3 MVP's, Ring, and FMVP.


Lebron can never be over legends like bird and magic due to 2011 and many other things. This narrative needs to stop. Magic and Bird had 100x the mental toughness and will always be more respected. Someone who started watching in 2003 may have a different opinion.
You are retarded AF.

[ArbitraryWater]

I always thought he was overrated. He was essentially a Scottie Pippen type that got to lead a franchise for a while. Basically what would have happened for Scottie if MJ was never there. Probably would have led them to some playoff runs, maybe mad a run at MVP, but Scottie was never that first option.

Same with KG. He is a 2nd fiddle. No way is he a top 20 player ever. Never understood the crazy love this guy got... It seems as if this guy is judged on his own separate type of scale that other players don't get.

I don't see how you take him over a guy like Robinson at his best, or Barkley at his, or Durant for example. All guys sitting on the edge of that top 20 list.
To be more specific, how is he better than guys like Malone, Barkley and Dirk? Those guys were reliable first options. KG wasn't. He wasn't a guy that could take on the scoring load. Not to mention those other guys weren't missing the playoffs in their prime, and all had memorable playoff runs as the man.

ya, and Pip was like 3rd or 4th in the '94 MVP rank

[Big164]

Teir 1 GOAT
-mj
-wilt
-russell


Teir 2 Great
-Kareem


Teir 3 Top10
-magic
-duncan
-shaq
-lebron
-bird
-hakeem
-kobe



Teir 4 Almost Top 10
-west
-oscar
-Julius
-Dirk
-Moses
-Mikan
-Petit
-Isiah
-Steph Curry



Teir 5 Top 30
-KG
-Wade
-Barkley
-Iverson
-Malone
-stockton
-kidd
-pippen
-havlicek
-rodman

[Kool Boy]

LeBron doesn't yet have the resume to be ranked #2 and KAJ was a better player than Russell by all metrics. Going by 11 rings, there's no way that LeBron should be even close to #2.


He's still not top 5 though.


What does that have to do with him being in the top 10? Shaq and Hakeem have significantly better resumes than West.


How is Moses inefficient, when he's at 57% TS for his career? Not to mention the 3 MVP's, Ring, and FMVP.


You are retarded AF.

I guess i put too much of my own opinion in my bad haha thanks for giving me a new perspective.

[kshutts1]

Teir 1 GOAT
-mj
-wilt
-russell


Teir 2 Great
-Kareem


Teir 3 Top10
-magic
-duncan
-shaq
-lebron
-bird
-hakeem
-kobe



Teir 4 Almost Top 10
-west
-oscar
-Julius
-Dirk
-Moses
-Mikan
-Petit
-Isiah
-Steph Curry



Teir 5 Top 30
-KG
-Wade
-Barkley
-Iverson
-Malone
-stockton
-kidd
-pippen
-havlicek
-rodman
How do you have 11 players in your top 10?

[kshutts1]

I always thought he was overrated. He was essentially a Scottie Pippen type that got to lead a franchise for a while. Basically what would have happened for Scottie if MJ was never there. Probably would have led them to some playoff runs, maybe mad a run at MVP, but Scottie was never that first option.

Same with KG. He is a 2nd fiddle. No way is he a top 20 player ever. Never understood the crazy love this guy got... It seems as if this guy is judged on his own separate type of scale that other players don't get.

I don't see how you take him over a guy like Robinson at his best, or Barkley at his, or Durant for example. All guys sitting on the edge of that top 20 list.
To be more specific, how is he better than guys like Malone, Barkley and Dirk? Those guys were reliable first options. KG wasn't. He wasn't a guy that could take on the scoring load. Not to mention those other guys weren't missing the playoffs in their prime, and all had memorable playoff runs as the man.
At what point is being a reliable first option being weighed too heavily? Is Melo better than KG because he's a more reliable first option?

Then once you get past that question, it's not like KG was a bad first option. I'd agree more strongly with your point if he was a Ben Wallace style player. But he was not. KG is likely a top 5 defensive player of all time, and he could (though I agree that he should not) be your first option.

And beyond scoring, your offense can essentially be run through him with his ridiculous passing ability coupled with his legit shot that must be defended and his lack of need to be The Guy.

[ArbitraryWater]

Teir 1 GOAT
-mj
-wilt
-russell


Teir 2 Great
-Kareem


Teir 3 Top10
-magic
-duncan
-shaq
-lebron
-bird
-hakeem
-kobe



Teir 4 Almost Top 10
-west
-oscar
-Julius
-Dirk
-Moses
-Mikan
-Petit
-Isiah
-Steph Curry



Teir 5 Top 30
-KG
-Wade
-Barkley
-Iverson
-Malone
-stockton
-kidd
-pippen
-havlicek
-rodman


teir

[Young X]

All this talk about first options.

Was Bill Russell, one of the greatest players of all time a first option on his teams? No. His impact mainly came from insane defensive impact.

Wasn't Magic Johnson a 2nd option for like half his career? He never was a monster scorer. He made his impact mostly through passing before anything.

You can impact the game in major ways without being a great scorer.

Not to mention, how the f*ck d you lead a championship team in scoring for a playoff run like KG did in 2008 if you're not a reliable first option.

[Real Men Wear Green]

KG would be rated higher if he had more rings, no question. It all goes back to the penalty for the Joe Smith deal. When McHale tried to secretly pay Smith a deal that violated the cap Stern took away 5 consecutive first rounders. I'm not saying it wasn't justified but it kept the Wolves talent level far below what it should have been during some of Garnett's best years. If he had a go-to scorer like Pierce throughout his prime he would have a different story.

It's a team game so teammates will affect a guy's legacy. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it hurts.

[Pointguard]

Same with KG. He is a 2nd fiddle. No way is he a top 20 player ever. Never understood the crazy love this guy got... It seems as if this guy is judged on his own separate type of scale that other players don't get. Russell??? The consensus number one before MJ.?. Do you think before you type?



I don't see how you take him over a guy like Robinson at his best, or Barkley at his, or Durant for example. All guys sitting on the edge of that top 20 list.
To be more specific, how is he better than guys like Malone, Barkley and Dirk?
Barkley and Dirk? He was one fg away from them in their primes. And was better than them in every other way. His defense was much better than theirs. From earlier in this thread:

The Celtics' defense is allowing 89.72 points/100 possessions when Garnett is on the court (the #1 mark in the NBA)
The Celtics' defense is allowing 122.44 points/100 possessions when Garnett is off the court (the absolute worst mark in the NBA)

In short, the Celtics' defense is 32.7 points better with Garnett on the floor this postseason than with him off through 17 games and almost 650 minutes on-court.

The difference is about 5 FG per game in favor of KG before we get to assist which now puts it at least six on Dirk or Barkley. When you actually see the whole game a different story is told. And that's a conservative estimate.

Every other fan of other sports know the value of defense. Basketball fans, not as much.

[AussieSteve]

If we're ranking the greatness of a player's career, KG get's the nod at #5 PF all time for me. Duncan>>Malone>Barkley>Dirk>KG.

The reason he's below the others is because of the brevity of his prime. He's been around for a long time, but he was only up with the best for 8 or 9 seasons. I know he has a ring, while Barkley and Malone don't, but I'm not sure that you can count KG's ring as a superior achievement, considering who he was playing with/against compared to the other two. Also, obviously Dirk's ring is >> than KG's, and Dirk has maintained a high level for much longer than KG. However, KGs best was so good that if you were to remove that one epic post season from Dirk's resume, I'd probably have KG above him.

If we're purely ranking who was the best PF, then KG has a strong case for #1. He was clearly the best defensive and best passing PF ever in the early 00's. For me, I'd have Barkley>KG>Duncan>Dirk>Malone.

I have him over Duncan because I think that Duncan's team achievements, and the fact that he's such a top bloke, tend to inflate people's opinions of how good he was as a player... obviously he was damn good, I just think that for a few years, KG was better.

[bizil]

Personally, I think KG was an alpha dog level scorer. BUT guys like Barkley, Mailman, and Dirk were more dominant at it. BUT THE THING with KG is he was asked to be his team's best scorer, best rebounder, a point forward, AND best defender. And defensively in his younger days, he defended big swingmen ALL the way to centers. None of the other legendary PF's were ASKED TO DO AS MUCH as KG in Minny.

Barkley, Malone, Dirk, McHale, etc. weren't expected to do as much as KG. So considering all the things KG had on his plate, I think KG's 24 points at night at his peak was alpha dog quality. Guys in that 23-24 point range like a Duncan and KG would PUT THEIR STAMP on a game scoring ENOUGH to be an alpha. Guys like a Pippen were more 2nd option types FLAT OUT!

[plowking]

Russell??? The consensus number one before MJ.?. Do you think before you type?


Barkley and Dirk? He was one fg away from them in their primes. And was better than them in every other way. His defense was much better than theirs. From earlier in this thread:

The Celtics' defense is allowing 89.72 points/100 possessions when Garnett is on the court (the #1 mark in the NBA)
The Celtics' defense is allowing 122.44 points/100 possessions when Garnett is off the court (the absolute worst mark in the NBA)

In short, the Celtics' defense is 32.7 points better with Garnett on the floor this postseason than with him off through 17 games and almost 650 minutes on-court.

The difference is about 5 FG per game in favor of KG before we get to assist which now puts it at least six on Dirk or Barkley. When you actually see the whole game a different story is told. And that's a conservative estimate.

Every other fan of other sports know the value of defense. Basketball fans, not as much.

So what exactly have you gone on to prove?

I said he was a great second fiddle. That is what he is.
Defense is great and all, but Dirk and Barkley being far better offensive players made them better as a whole. Dirk never had over the top great teams, but he did far more with them than Garnett ever could.

At the end of the day, Garnett wasn't a guy you could feed it to and tell him to get you buckets. And why are you comparing him to Russell. Russell proved he could win 11 rings as the best player on his team. Garnett didn't come close to that. In fact, he won as the second best player on his team, when he joined a roster absolutely stacked with talent.

Garnett may play both sides of the ball, but Barkley, Malone, Dirk, etc all do so much better on the offensive side that it doesn't matter. In the same vein that Curry is better than Paul or Payton. Or Bird than Pippen.

[Pointguard]

So what exactly have you gone on to prove?

I said he was a great second fiddle. That is what he is.
Defense is great and all, but Dirk and Barkley being far better offensive players made them better as a whole. Dirk never had over the top great teams, but he did far more with them than Garnett ever could.

Wow, if you think KG had Dirk's teams were equal you are way too shot to talk with. Teams for Dirk were made and tweaked over many years to get it right. He had a very solid FO. No great, not Jordan or Shaq wins without a solid FO and talented players. KG had the worst FO in the league throughout his prime. They were criminally bad. But the first year he gets one, he wins it all.


At the end of the day, Garnett wasn't a guy you could feed it to and tell him to get you buckets. And why are you comparing him to Russell. Russell proved he could win 11 rings as the best player on his team. Garnett didn't come close to that. In fact, he won as the second best player on his team, when he joined a roster absolutely stacked with talent.
He was best offensive player on his team when he won it all, obviously the best defensively. Do you watch basketball??? Not only was he their leading scorer in the playoff run, he made way more offensive decisions than Pierce and Allen. But this is your understanding of the game.

I brought up Russell to show you that your statement that non offensive players (which KG is not), Russell was third option a whole lot too, were not among the GOATs. You forgot that quick? I never compared him to KG at all. You said KG was on some separate scale.

[G-train]

I think the only reasonable way to rate him is as one of the top 10 players since 2000 (his era).

All time rankings are stupid. Garnett might be better than Russell who some say is 2nd best player ever. He also might be worse than Barkley who isn't in some top 20 lists. Who knows.

[ClipperRevival]

In hindsight, ranking KG 15ish is a bit too high. He's more in the late teens to early 20's range. But peak wise, he definitely is 15ish.

[Dragonyeuw]

In hindsight, ranking KG 15ish is a bit too high. He's more in the late teens to early 20's range. But peak wise, he definitely is 15ish.

That's where I have him too.

[ClipperRevival]

BTW, KG's best 10 year run (1999 - 2008):

22.0 PPG, 25.5 PER, .494%, 12.2 RPG, 4.8 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG


Duncan's best 10 year run (1998 - 2007):

21.8 PPG, 25.2 PER, .509%, 11.9 RPG, 3.2 APG, .8 SPG, 2.5 BPG

Nowitski's best 10 year run (2002 - 2011):

24.5 PPG, 24.8 PER, .479%, 8.8 RPG, 2.9 APG, .9 SPG, 1.0 BPG

Malone's best 10 year run (1989 - 1998):

27.6 PPG, 25.8 PER, .532%, 10.8 RPG, 3.6 APG, 1.5 SPG, .9 BPG

Barkley's best 10 year run (1987 - 1996):

24.7 PPG, 26.0 PER, .548%, 11.8 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.6 SPG, .8 BPG

[necya]

very good all around player, can do it all on both hands on the floor, his size combined with his agility mixed with speed make it easy for him in some aspects of the game. he was a very good team player which was his best quality imo, but so overrated by his departure, the guy has never been a winner, always has been consider of a franchise player but in fact was not at all. what did he do with the timberwolves except that year when sam cassell and Sprewell had both great year in 2004 ? 05, 06, 07 were terrible. was part of that first ***** move in the modern days, when stars signed all in the same team to get an easy title. then lakers, heat, cavs and now warriors are starting to do it.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Top 20, not near Duncan, bit below Dirk...

get this:

I know all the overrating that the typical KG crew likes to do, but this dude had just TWO 20+ ppg / 50+% shooting series' in his PLAYOFF CAREER....

but apparently he's better than Duncan but just in the wrong environment, lol. Dirk also whopped his ass H2H. He outrebounded KG as well IIRC?

If you guys are fine with that type of go to scoring, the premier asset in Basketball, be my guest.

Crazy dudes saying he was better than Duncan with only two 20+ PPG 50% shooting series' in his career when anyone who watched basketball seen Duncan have series' with like 30/15/5/3 surrounded by scrubs at times. ITT: people who just look at regular season stats and don't take into account the play offs.

:oldlol:

[SsKSpurs21]

a poor man's David Robinson. :cheers:

[ArbitraryWater]

Personally, I think KG was an alpha dog level scorer. BUT guys like Barkley, Mailman, and Dirk were more dominant at it. BUT THE THING with KG is he was asked to be his team's best scorer, best rebounder, a point forward, AND best defender. And defensively in his younger days, he defended big swingmen ALL the way to centers. None of the other legendary PF's were ASKED TO DO AS MUCH as KG in Minny.

Barkley, Malone, Dirk, McHale, etc. weren't expected to do as much as KG. So considering all the things KG had on his plate, I think KG's 24 points at night at his peak was alpha dog quality. Guys in that 23-24 point range like a Duncan and KG would PUT THEIR STAMP on a game scoring ENOUGH to be an alpha. Guys like a Pippen were more 2nd option types FLAT OUT!

Not even close, tbh

TWO 20+/50+% shooting series' for his career... any actual alpha dog level scorer lols at that.

[ArbitraryWater]

Crazy dudes saying he was better than Duncan with only two 20+ PPG 50% shooting series' in his career when anyone who watched basketball seen Duncan have series' with like 30/15/5/3 surrounded by scrubs at times. ITT: people who just look at regular season stats and don't take into account the play offs.

:oldlol:

Exactly.. oh KG was surrounded by scrubs? Duncan led a team to a title with Jackson as his #2 man... had senior Porter and Johnson start next to him. No problem putting up 30/15 n whatever... KG stans dont get that his playoff body of work doesnt compare to Duncan, or even Dirk.

[Dragonyeuw]

Personally, I think KG was an alpha dog level scorer. BUT guys like Barkley, Mailman, and Dirk were more dominant at it. BUT THE THING with KG is he was asked to be his team's best scorer, best rebounder, a point forward, AND best defender. And defensively in his younger days, he defended big swingmen ALL the way to centers. None of the other legendary PF's were ASKED TO DO AS MUCH as KG in Minny.

Barkley, Malone, Dirk, McHale, etc. weren't expected to do as much as KG. So considering all the things KG had on his plate, I think KG's 24 points at night at his peak was alpha dog quality. Guys in that 23-24 point range like a Duncan and KG would PUT THEIR STAMP on a game scoring ENOUGH to be an alpha. Guys like a Pippen were more 2nd option types FLAT OUT!

That's where stats can be misleading sometimes. We can look at his 24ppg in 2004, or his multiple 20+ppg seasons and say ok, this guy was a consistently very good scorer, at 24ppg you would even say bordering on great.

But.... he had a limit to how far he could actually explode offensively. Whether it be ability or mentality( I'm thinking moreso mentality), he wasn't the guy to take you home in the clutch en route to a title. He needed others to fill in. Put him on the 2003 Spurs, no way he duplicates what Duncan did leading that team to a championship. I personally think Garnett was *across the board* more talented, but Duncan just seemed to have certain intangibles that don't show in the boxscore. And he was certainly a guy who you could throw the ball to on the block and he'll produce something for you in the big moments. That's the main difference to me, because otherwise you look at their prime season numbers and you're thinking they're the same player. But the playoffs is where Duncan separated himself.

All that said, I don't hold his 'very good, not great' scoring acumen against him, he's still among the most versatile talents ever. But I honestly can't say when I think of true alpha scorers, that he deserves a spot on that list.

[Smook A.]

Let's see...
Great passer for his position
Fantastic offensive player during his Minny years
Amazing defensive player

I definitely think he's a top 20 player ever and a top 5 PF (KG, Duncan, Barkley, Malone, and Dirk in no particular order)

[Pointguard]

Crazy dudes saying he was better than Duncan with only two 20+ PPG 50% shooting series' in his career when anyone who watched basketball seen Duncan have series' with like 30/15/5/3 surrounded by scrubs at times. ITT: people who just look at regular season stats and don't take into account the play offs.

:oldlol: Who said he was better than Duncan. I do know that Duncan didn't outplay him H2H but almost always had a better situation. He played Duncan to a tie throughout their primes and in the playoffs which covers like 40 games. And this is with Duncan having much better structure, coach and players.

[$LakerGold]

I don't know why people say that KG was limited offensively, why is that exactly? He had the mid-range, post game, executing PNR's well.

[Dragonyeuw]

I don't know why people say that KG was limited offensively, why is that exactly? He had the mid-range, post game, executing PNR's well.

I personally am not saying his offensive 'skillset' was limited. I'm saying it was more of a mentality. His game was based on versatility, not offensive dominance. Like a taller Pippen if you will....

[Pointguard]

Exactly.. oh KG was surrounded by scrubs? Duncan led a team to a title with Jackson as his #2 man... had senior Porter and Johnson start next to him. No problem putting up 30/15 n whatever... KG stans dont get that his playoff body of work doesnt compare to Duncan, or even Dirk.
:lol

That Duncan team was one of his best but this is the level in which you guys operate here. It was one of the best defensive teams ever.

Robinson, while not his old self still got 2 blocks per game and was still among the best centers in the game and one of the wisest. Still a great defensive player.

Bowen - hits the three at 44 percent and more than one a game. Best perimeter defender in the game. They have three positions where they contend for best defender at the position. All three are wise and experienced as well. Unheard of. And this is before we get to.

Stephen Jackson - a hustle player with great defensive instincts. Totally humiliated Dirk in Dirk's MVP season despite being four inches smaller than him. Can really D up on a player.

Malik Rose - the toughest/grittiest player coming off of the bench in the league.

Ginobli - another hustle player with quick hands and with a smart game. One of the better wing defenders coming off of the bench.

Tony Parker - was loved by Pop because he slowed the pace of the game.

All of these players played above 20 minutes a game. That's seven guys contributing big time to the defense. I can't think of another team that had 4 great defensive pieces doing that. Nevermind Claxton, Kerr, Kevin Willis and Steve Smith providing great experience or complimentrary help. Its one of the greatest defensive constructs the league ever seen.

When KG had one of the greatest defensive teams the only guys getting 20 minutes a game outside of KG were Perkins and Posey who were no where near Robinson and Bowen. You have no clue what you are talking about.

[Pointguard]

I personally am not saying his offensive 'skillset' was limited. I'm saying it was more of a mentality. His game was based on versatility, not offensive dominance. Like a taller Pippen if you will....
Wow, didn't we just establish that KG spent his entire prime as the man on his team offensively. Pippen only twice. Garnett shot more in the last five minutes of the game than Duncan did in close games: Explain that to me being that you can't understand it any other way.

[Pointguard]

BTW, KG's best 10 year run (1999 - 2008):

22.0 PPG, 25.5 PER, .494%, 12.2 RPG, 4.8 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG


Duncan's best 10 year run (1998 - 2007):

21.8 PPG, 25.2 PER, .509%, 11.9 RPG, 3.2 APG, .8 SPG, 2.5 BPG

Nowitski's best 10 year run (2002 - 2011):

24.5 PPG, 24.8 PER, .479%, 8.8 RPG, 2.9 APG, .9 SPG, 1.0 BPG

Malone's best 10 year run (1989 - 1998):

27.6 PPG, 25.8 PER, .532%, 10.8 RPG, 3.6 APG, 1.5 SPG, .9 BPG

Barkley's best 10 year run (1987 - 1996):

24.7 PPG, 26.0 PER, .548%, 11.8 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.6 SPG, .8 BPG

Thanks for the work Clipper Revival. Of course nobody is going to look at it and understand it. Malone stands out there but you rarely hear that as part of these guys agenda here. Malone was also better defensively than Dirk and Barkley but not on the level of KG or Duncan, whose defense was definitely more than five or six made FG attempts.

[Dragonyeuw]

Wow, didn't we just establish that KG spent his entire prime as the man on his team offensively. Pippen only twice. Garnett shot more in the last five minutes of the game than Duncan did in close games: Explain that to me being that you can't understand it any other way.

And? He was the best scorer on his Wolves teams. No-one was arguing otherwise, at least I wasn't. I thought the conversation was about whether his scoring ability rightfully qualifies him as being an 'alpha' scorer. I never argued he wasn't, at worst, a very good scorer. Perhaps we need to establish what that means for the benefit of the conversation.

And, looking at those stats posted above, what new information have they provided? We know KG in the regular season was a statistical beast. But how many truly great playoff runs did the guy have? How are his playoff stats compared to guys like Barkley, Duncan, Dirk, Malone?

[bizil]

I think some posters NEED TO REALIZE there are different levels of alpha dogs. If u have over 26,000 points and have finished as high as THIRD in the league in scoring, u have alpha dog type ability. But the thing is KG wasn't as DOMINANT an alpha dog as Dirk, Barkley, Mailman, etc.

And AT THE SAME TIME, those guys weren't asked to do the multitude of things KG was asked to do. So I think KG put his energy into the all around facets and was WILLING to try to takeover scoring if needed. Once KG hit 25 years old, he averaged 25.4 points in the playoffs for his remaining Minny days. I think he was realizing he needed to step up more scoring.

But after that 2004 MVP season, he never made the playoffs again with Minny. From there he joined Boston in his last great prime year AND LED THEM IN SCORING in the playoffs! So if anything over time, KG played more in the flow during the regular season BUT stepped up his scoring in the playoffs. Once Ticket hit 25 years old, he was beginning to understand. That knee injury in Boston took KG out of his prime years so I won't use that against him.

[tpols]

Exactly.. oh KG was surrounded by scrubs? Duncan led a team to a title with Jackson as his #2 man... had senior Porter and Johnson start next to him. No problem putting up 30/15 n whatever... KG stans dont get that his playoff body of work doesnt compare to Duncan, or even Dirk.

you dont know anything about that era ... so the condescending tone you speak of KG with is especially ironic.


the spurs have been and still are the Patriots of the NBA .. and Pop is Belichick, disciples of Larry Brown and Bill Parcels respectively. Their systems were light years better than anything Minnesota had to offer.

[T_L_P]

In my top fifteen.

[ArbitraryWater]

you dont know anything about that era ... so the condescending tone you speak of KG with is especially ironic.


the spurs have been and still are the Patriots of the NBA .. and Pop is Belichick, disciples of Larry Brown and Bill Parcels respectively. Their systems were light years better than anything Minnesota had to offer.

Not when Pop was still runnin' that vanilla offense in the early 00's though :lol

Duncan for a good portion of his career has been surrounded by cast-offs and and traveling vets. The things KG is great at, could be more easily replaced, than being an elite 1st option scorer...

KG only has one playoff run as a 1st option with a TS of 55% and over. Again, pretty bad.

[Dragonyeuw]

And AT THE SAME TIME, those guys weren't asked to do the multitude of things KG was asked to do. So I think KG put his energy into the all around facets and was WILLING to try to takeover scoring if needed. Once KG hit 25 years old, he averaged 25.4 points in the playoffs for his remaining Minny days. I think he was realizing he needed to step up more scoring.

.

Which is effectively what I said, so I'm not sure why pointguard got bent out of shape to my earlier reply. I quite clearly said that with KG, it was more of a 'mentality', than any lack of offensive ability. Do I think he could have averged 25ppg a few seasons if he emphasized that? Sure, but that wasnt his game. His skillset was versatile enough to cover a lot of bases.

[SCdac]

Somewhere between 15-25 or so. Well rounded and versatile but at the same time relied alot on jumpers sometimes to a detriment. Won a championship as the best player on his team and earlier in his career an MVP also. Could def see an argument for second best PF behind Duncan. Feel like he could have retired 3-4 years ago, but he did come into the league young

[aj1987]

Not when Pop was still runnin' that vanilla offense in the early 00's though :lol

Duncan for a good portion of his career has been surrounded by cast-offs and and traveling vets. The things KG is great at, could be more easily replaced, than being an elite 1st option scorer...

KG only has one playoff run as a 1st option with a TS of 55% and over. Again, pretty bad.
Yeah, because finding one of the greatest defenders and rebounders, who could also score 20 a game is "easy". :facepalm :facepalm

I'm not a fan of KG by any means, but the hate on here is ridiculous. AW, you've never actually watched a single game of KG's, when he was in his prime/peak. Stop pretending to know what kind of a player he was.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah, because finding one of the greatest defenders and rebounders, who could also score 20 a game is "easy". :facepalm :facepalm

I'm not a fan of KG by any means, but the hate on here is ridiculous. AW, you've never actually watched a single game of KG's, when he was in his prime/peak. Stop pretending to know what kind of a player he was.

No, but a role player, solely focusing on defense, will do a better job than to provide elite defense, than scoring.. since defense is more effort based, where as scoring prefers talent. Thats all I mean by that. Its easier to build around a guy like Dirk. Plug in a defensive anchor/C like Chandler and you're ready to compete, basically.

[aj1987]

No, but a role player, solely focusing on defense, will do a better job than to provide elite defense, than scoring.. since defense is more effort based, where as scoring prefers talent. Thats all I mean by that. Its easier to build around a guy like Dirk. Plug in a defensive anchor/C like Chandler and you're ready to compete, basically.
Give KG a couple of 3&D guys and that team would compete.

[ArbitraryWater]

Give KG a couple of 3&D guys and that team would compete.

Nahh, needs another first option scorer. Takeover quality. Late buckets. Able to take it to the rim, in situations he avoided the block and took the J.

[aj1987]

Nahh, needs another first option scorer. Takeover quality. Late buckets. Able to take it to the rim, in situations he avoided the block and took the J.
Again, you've NEVER actually seen the guy play, so your opinion in null and void.

What good if all that "takeover quality", when you choke as hard as Dirk did in '06 and '07 (just to name a few).

[Pointguard]

And? He was the best scorer on his Wolves teams. No-one was arguing otherwise, at least I wasn't. I thought the conversation was about whether his scoring ability rightfully qualifies him as being an 'alpha' scorer.
Don't use the term Alpha because its never applied rightfully. There is only one Alpha at a time. Barkley and Dirk were never Alpha's. KG was an Alpha rebounder for like three or four years. But its always misused one way or the other. When I show you that he takes a few more shots as the great Tim Duncan in clutch times (last five minutes of a close games) and hits his shots at the fifth best in the whole decade, you don't respond at all. And these are raw stats.

Tell me what qualifies one and not the other.


And, looking at those stats posted above, what new information have they provided? We know KG in the regular season was a statistical beast. But how many truly great playoff runs did the guy have? How are his playoff stats compared to guys like Barkley, Duncan, Dirk, Malone?
He was 26/15/5/2/2 in the playoffs during his prime.

And then after his prime he leads the best defensive playoff run after the no handcheck era. So he has three which is about what the others have - excluding Duncan. And like I said earlier. Shaq and MJ are not winning with the worse FO in the league so nobody else is up for consideration in KG's situation.

You see this is why I lose my patience with you.

[tpols]

you could easily say that Dirk needed not only tyson chandler's DPOY level defense, but Kidd and Marion's as well. And in addition to that Dirk needed Kidd's great playmaking, and all time Hot shooting from terry, peja, etc. And even with all that, still needed LeBron James to have one of the worst chokes of all time to get over the hump by a matter of a few buckets... That sounds like he got a shit load of help not only from his supporting cast, but from his competition as well.


Garnett had a solid shot at a title if Sam Cassell was healthy in 2004... and that was going through a tougher conference at the time than what Dirk went through in 2011. KG covers all holes that Dirk doesnt in defense, rebounding and direct playmaking. Holes that need to be filled by Kidd, Tyson, Marion, Terry for the Mavericks to win. The t wolve teams had way less depth, less coaching, more competition.. no breaks going there way (actually the opposite w/ injury)..


to judge the two scenarios and come to the conclusion dirk is better just because his team won and KG's lost is ignorant.. missing all context. '04 KG was easily better player than '11 Dirk.

[ArbitraryWater]

Again, you've NEVER actually seen the guy play, so your opinion in null and void.

What good if all that "takeover quality", when you choke as hard as Dirk did in '06 and '07 (just to name a few).

lol, your last resort, this early? :lol

Just to name a few? Try to name more, actually.. Even in years he chokes, he puts up one of the greatest playoff runs ever ('06).


you could easily say that Dirk needed not only tyson chandler's DPOY level defense, but Kidd and Marion's as well. And in addition to that Dirk needed Kidd's great playmaking, and all time Hot shooting from terry, peja, etc. And even with all that, still needed LeBron James to have one of the worst chokes of all time to get over the hump by a matter of a few buckets... That sounds like he got a shit load of help not only from his supporting cast, but from his competition as well.


Garnett had a solid shot at a title if Sam Cassell was healthy in 2004... and that was going through a tougher conference at the time than what Dirk went through in 2011. KG covers all holes that Dirk doesnt in defense, rebounding and direct playmaking. Holes that need to be filled by Kidd, Tyson, Marion, Terry for the Mavericks to win. The t wolve teams had way less depth, less coaching, more competition.. no breaks going there way (actually the opposite w/ injury)..


to judge the two scenarios and come to the conclusion dirk is better just because his team won and KG's lost is ignorant.. missing all context. '04 KG was easily better player than '11 Dirk.

Not come playoff time.. the '11 Mavs probably beat the '04 Lakers, led by Dirk's clutch shooting.

There is very little need for 'direct playmaking' on a Dirk led team... and lol at trying to take Marion away from him. Kidd was having 0 point games in the finals, but go ahead.

[aj1987]

lol, your last resort, this early? :lol

Just to name a few? Try to name more, actually.. Even in years he chokes, he puts up one of the greatest playoff runs ever ('06).
Wow! Just wow!


Not come playoff time.. the '11 Mavs probably beat the '04 Lakers, led by Dirk's clutch shooting.
Good lord! One more gem from AutisticWater. You do know that the '04 Lakers had Shaq, right? The same Shaq who dropped 27/11 on 63%, 23/15/2/4 on 64%, and 21/16/3/3 on 57% against Timmy, Ben Wallace, and KG. 3 of the greatest defenders of all time. What the **** are skinny Chandler and Irk gonna do against him?

That Lakers team would sweep the Mavs. The Heat would've as well, if your boyfriend didn't have an epic meltdown.

[ArbitraryWater]

Wow! Just wow!


Good lord! One more gem from AutisticWater. You do know that the '04 Lakers had Shaq, right? The same Shaq who dropped 27/11 on 63%, 23/15/2/4 on 64%, and 21/16/3/3 on 57% against Timmy, Ben Wallace, and KG. 3 of the greatest defenders of all time. What the **** are skinny Chandler and Irk gonna do against him?

That Lakers team would sweep the Mavs. The Heat would've as well, if your boyfriend didn't have an epic meltdown.

And who did the '04 Wolves have? That series went 6 games with KG not doing anything historical.

[Young X]

^ Game 5 had 30/19/4 and even played PG for short stretches with Cassell injured and unable to play.

They probably win that series if Cassell was right.

[aj1987]

And who did the '04 Wolves have? That series went 6 games with KG not doing anything historical.
What legendary things did Dirk do in '11? Shoot 42% as a 7' big?

Shaq actually played bad in the two loses. If he played somewhat decent, they would've won. Also, as YoungX mentioned, KG had a 30/19/4/1/1 G5 and they won that by 4 (Shaq didn't play that well).

[Dragonyeuw]

Don't use the term Alpha because its never applied rightfully. There is only one Alpha at a time. Barkley and Dirk were never Alpha's. KG was an Alpha rebounder for like three or four years. But its always misused one way or the other. When I show you that he takes a few more shots as the great Tim Duncan in clutch times (last five minutes of a close games) and hits his shots at the fifth best in the whole decade, you don't respond at all. And these are raw stats.

Tell me what qualifies one and not the other.

He was 26/15/5/2/2 in the playoffs during his prime.

And then after his prime he leads the best defensive playoff run after the no handcheck era. So he has three which is about what the others have - excluding Duncan. And like I said earlier. Shaq and MJ are not winning with the worse FO in the league so nobody else is up for consideration in KG's situation.

You see this is why I lose my patience with you.

1. How are you determining the term 'alpha? And why do Dirk and Barkley not qualify as 'alphas'?

2. I didn't reply to your comment about Tim Duncan because I don't recall talking about him as an alpha scorer, though he was a more reliable post presence especially in the playoffs. So why do you keep bringing him up to me as if I've been arguing him vs Garnett?

3. He averaged 26/15/5/2/2 in one playoff run, a whooping 6 games, in 2003. Don't act as if he did this year in, year out or something like that. His career playoff scoring numbers are 18ppg on 52%. The names popping up in this discussion in terms of scoring? Barkley 23ppg on 58% %TS. Dirk 25ppg on 58%. Karl Malone 25ppg on 53%. Duncan 21ppg on 55% TS. You can post random statlines for the sake of your argument, but the numbers clearly bear out that as a career playoff scorer, the highest level of the game, he didn't measure up to his contemporaries. Now, his rebounding, passing, defense are easily superior, but I wasn't making an argument otherwise. I'm talking about his scoring compared to other great PFs and especially in the playoffs. We all know his numbers were spectacular in the regular season if you want to post comparative prime numbers.

If you have lost patience in this discussion, no-one is forcing you to continue engaging me. You're more than welcome to take your opinion and go about your day. Otherwise, stop acting like I'm shitting on the guy. I've said on multiple occasions that he's one of the top 20 players ever in my book.

[houston]

top 25 player......thats all

[AussieSteve]

If we order the below quote by PER we have




Barkley's best 10 year run (1987 - 1996):

24.7 PPG, 26.0 PER, .548%, 11.8 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.6 SPG, .8 BPG

Malone's best 10 year run (1989 - 1998):

27.6 PPG, 25.8 PER, .532%, 10.8 RPG, 3.6 APG, 1.5 SPG, .9 BPG

KG's best 10 year run (1999 - 2008):

22.0 PPG, 25.5 PER, .494%, 12.2 RPG, 4.8 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG

Duncan's best 10 year run (1998 - 2007):

21.8 PPG, 25.2 PER, .509%, 11.9 RPG, 3.2 APG, .8 SPG, 2.5 BPG

Nowitski's best 10 year run (2002 - 2011):

24.5 PPG, 24.8 PER, .479%, 8.8 RPG, 2.9 APG, .9 SPG, 1.0 BPG




Let's extend this analysis to each players best 12 years, ranked by PER. This gives us a ranking of primes

Barkley's best 12 year run (1986 - 1997):

23.9 PPG, 25.5 PER, .547%, 12.0 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG

Malone's best 12 year run (1988 - 1999):

27.4 PPG, 25.4 PER, .529%, 10.8 RPG, 3.5 APG, 1.5 SPG, 0.8 BPG

Duncan's best 12 year run (1998 - 2009):

21.4 PPG, 25.0 PER, .507%, 11.7 RPG, 3.2 APG, 0.8 SPG, 2.4 BPG

KG's best 12 year run (1999 - 2010):

21.3 PPG, 24.8 PER, .496%, 11.8 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG

Nowitzki's best 12 year run (2001 - 2012):

24.1 PPG, 24.5 PER, .478%, 8.7 RPG, 2.7 APG, 0.9 SPG, 1.0 BPG


Let's contract this analysis to each players best 5 years, ranked by PER. This gives a ranking of peaks

Barkley's best 5 year run (1987 - 1991):

26.0 PPG, 27.1 PER, .586%, 12.1 RPG, 4.0 APG, 1.6 SPG, 1.0 BPG

KG's best 5 year run (1999 - 2010):

22.7 PPG, 27.0 PER, .500%, 13.3 RPG, 5.0 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG

Duncan's best 5 year run (2001 - 2005):

22.8 PPG, 26.3 PER, .504%, 12.3 RPG, 3.3 APG, 0.8 SPG, 2.6 BPG

Nowitzki's best 5 year run (2003 - 2007):

24.8 PPG, 26.0 PER, .473%, 9.2 RPG, 3.0 APG, 1.0 SPG, 1.1 BPG

Malone's best 5 year run (1989 - 1993)**:

28.8 PPG, 25.6 PER, .537%, 11.2 RPG, 3.1 APG, 1.4 SPG, 0.8 BPG

**Malone's best 5 were tough, because his best scoring, rebounding and efficiency years were not the same as his best defensive and facilitating years. These top 5 are not his top 5 by PER, but his top 5 by scoring/rebounding/efficiency.

Anyway, stats give us

Prime: Barkley>Malone>Duncan>KG>Nowitzki

Peak: Barkley>KG>Duncan>Nowitzki>Malone or Barkley>KG>Malone>Duncan>Nowitzki (depending on where you want to put Malone's peak, and how you want to quantify 'peak')

And everything else gives us

Career: Duncan>Malone>Barkley>Nowitzki>KG

[Hey Yo]

He's like the greatest role player ever. If I were making an all-time starting 5, I'd heavily consider having him on the team. He's so versatile which also makes him tough to rank.
great post ....overlooked

[plowking]

Would anyone honestly take KG over prime D-Rob?

[Pointguard]

If we order the below quote by PER we have

Let's extend this analysis to each players best 12 years, ranked by PER. This gives us a ranking of primes

Barkley's best 12 year run (1986 - 1997):

23.9 PPG, 25.5 PER, .547%, 12.0 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG

Malone's best 12 year run (1988 - 1999):

27.4 PPG, 25.4 PER, .529%, 10.8 RPG, 3.5 APG, 1.5 SPG, 0.8 BPG

Duncan's best 12 year run (1998 - 2009):

21.4 PPG, 25.0 PER, .507%, 11.7 RPG, 3.2 APG, 0.8 SPG, 2.4 BPG

KG's best 12 year run (1999 - 2010):

21.3 PPG, 24.8 PER, .496%, 11.8 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG

Nowitzki's best 12 year run (2001 - 2012):

24.1 PPG, 24.5 PER, .478%, 8.7 RPG, 2.7 APG, 0.9 SPG, 1.0 BPG


Let's contract this analysis to each players best 5 years, ranked by PER. This gives a ranking of peaks

Barkley's best 5 year run (1987 - 1991):

26.0 PPG, 27.1 PER, .586%, 12.1 RPG, 4.0 APG, 1.6 SPG, 1.0 BPG

KG's best 5 year run (1999 - 2010):

22.7 PPG, 27.0 PER, .500%, 13.3 RPG, 5.0 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG

Duncan's best 5 year run (2001 - 2005):

22.8 PPG, 26.3 PER, .504%, 12.3 RPG, 3.3 APG, 0.8 SPG, 2.6 BPG

Nowitzki's best 5 year run (2003 - 2007):

24.8 PPG, 26.0 PER, .473%, 9.2 RPG, 3.0 APG, 1.0 SPG, 1.1 BPG

Malone's best 5 year run (1989 - 1993)**:

28.8 PPG, 25.6 PER, .537%, 11.2 RPG, 3.1 APG, 1.4 SPG, 0.8 BPG

**Malone's best 5 were tough, because his best scoring, rebounding and efficiency years were not the same as his best defensive and facilitating years. These top 5 are not his top 5 by PER, but his top 5 by scoring/rebounding/efficiency.

Anyway, stats give us

Prime: Barkley>Malone>Duncan>KG>Nowitzki

Peak: Barkley>KG>Duncan>Nowitzki>Malone or Barkley>KG>Malone>Duncan>Nowitzki (depending on where you want to put Malone's peak, and how you want to quantify 'peak')

And everything else gives us

Career: Duncan>Malone>Barkley>Nowitzki>KG

You got some long peaks and primes!!!

We had something on these boards and peaks were top three years. Prime top five to seven. Its all arbitrary.

[Pointguard]

3. He averaged 26/15/5/2/2 in one playoff run, a whooping 6 games, in 2003. Don't act as if he did this year in, year out or something like that. Are you sure? I have that over 27 games and three years. He was at 27/16/5/2/2 over the one year you are talking about.


His career playoff scoring numbers are 18ppg on 52%. The names popping up in this discussion in terms of scoring? Barkley 23ppg on 58% %TS. Dirk 25ppg on 58%. Karl Malone 25ppg on 53%. Duncan 21ppg on 55% TS. You can post random statlines for the sake of your argument, but the numbers clearly bear out that as a career playoff scorer, the highest level of the game, he didn't measure up to his contemporaries.
KG has more younger years than they do, and more older years than they do. The priorities of his teams were different and more varied. None of those teams were designed to be great offensively.



Now, his rebounding, passing, defense are easily superior, but I wasn't making an argument otherwise. I'm talking about his scoring compared to other great PFs and especially in the playoffs. We all know his numbers were spectacular in the regular season if you want to post comparative prime numbers.
Who are you to decide the criteria. I guess you think you are Alpha right. You're not. In KG's prime, the team wasn't constructed around him like the others. He also played for the worst FO in the league.


If you have lost patience in this discussion, no-one is forcing you to continue engaging me. You're more than welcome to take your opinion and go about your day. Otherwise, stop acting like I'm shitting on the guy. I've said on multiple occasions that he's one of the top 20 players ever in my book.
I couldn't care less about what you think. I only temporarily lose it with haters. No need to take it serious and I will do it mostly for the fun of debate.

[tpols]

Would anyone honestly take KG over prime D-Rob?

you could say the same thing about david robinson and Dirk or Duncan ... dont be a fool.

[NBAGOAT]

I'm leaning KG as the 2nd best pf ever. Disagree with AussieSteve since I think Garnett has the best peak of the guys besides Duncan(he has a case over Duncan too). He's not the offensive player any of those other guys are but he's still great impact wise on that end and none of those guys are game changers defensively.

[Young X]

At Garnett's peak he was 1 and 2 in the league with Duncan.

Everybody always talks about Duncan in 2003...KG NARROWLY lost MVP to him that year and then almost unanimously topped him the next year.

How could they be that far apart when they were that close in their primes and had similar longevity? Something doesn't add up.

Mid teens to late teens seems like the right place for him.

[Dragonyeuw]

Who are you to decide the criteria. I guess you think you are Alpha right. You're not. In KG's prime, the team wasn't constructed around him like the others. He also played for the worst FO in the league.

I couldn't care less about what you think. I only temporarily lose it with haters. No need to take it serious and I will do it mostly for the fun of debate.

What the **** do you mean, who am I to set the criteria?

"I guess you think you are Alpha right" What the hell are you even saying at this point?!

You want to have decent discussion? I'm for it. Otherwise, you couldn't care less about what I think? Cool, in that case **** off and go about your business.

[Dragonyeuw]

KG has more younger years than they do, and more older years than they do. The priorities of his teams were different and more varied. None of those teams were designed to be great offensively.




You want to discuss old years?

36 year old fatass Barkley in 99 averaged 24/14/4 on 58% TS

Malone was putting up 27 ppg at 37/38 years old.

The priorities of his team were different and more varied? How so? Elaborate. Actually don't, I've read enough.

[Pointguard]

What the **** do you mean, who am I to set the criteria?
You said you were talking about playoffs. That's what I was addressing.


"I guess you think you are Alpha right" What the hell are you even saying at this point?!

Same comment as above.


You want to have decent discussion? I'm for it. Otherwise, you couldn't care less about what I think? Cool, in that case **** off and go about your business.
:lol I do as I please. When you make sense. I'll leave you alone.

When I show you that KG fared well among the best in the whole decade in the last 5 minutes of close games, you don't address it. Just keep on your hater agenda. I show you a 27 game sample, you say its six, supposedly after you looked it up. So when you address things its wrong. When I tell you that Alpha means only the top one, you don't get it.

Its not me... its you.

[Dragonyeuw]

:lol I do as I please. When you make sense. I'll leave you alone.

The beauty of it is, so can I. And in this case, I'm done with you. You aren't saying anything of any value at this point that I need to continue addressing. I laugh at the morons who claim they don't care about an opinion, but keep replying until they got the last word. Is that what you would like? Would that complete your day? Have at it bruh. I've already wasted enough of my valuable time.

Everyone else on the board understands what the term 'alpha scorer' means, its a basketball lingo commonly used at least on these boards. Regardless of whether people think hes an alpha level scorer or not, they know what it means. You're the only dumbass who's being literal about it. But after reading enough of your posts, I'm now thinking English isn't your first language. Which would explain why your brain can't deviate off the webster definition of the word alpha and understand how its being applied within the context of this discussion by several others, not just me.

[Pointguard]

You want to discuss old years?

36 year old fatass Barkley in 99 averaged 24/14/4 on 58% TS

Malone was putting up 27 ppg at 37/38 years old.

The priorities of his team were different and more varied? How so? Elaborate. Actually don't, I've read enough.

He had to lead them in different ways. He was the defensive anchor in one of the best defenses ever and after the hand check rule. A vast majority of his energy went into making sure nobody got to the rim. That's a different priority that paid off. Other times, like Duncan, he lead his team in nearly every category. Things only he and Duncan were able to do while being defensive anchors. Its a whole other level. With KG's defensive presence producing a negative of 32 points per 100 possessions.

[Pointguard]

I laugh at the morons who claim they don't care about an opinion, but keep replying until they got the last word. Is that what you would like? Would that complete your day? Have at it bruh. I've already wasted enough of my valuable time.

I love debating... .

[Dragonyeuw]

https://crhentltd.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/charliebrownteacher.png


Yep.

[ClipperRevival]

If we order the below quote by PER we have




Let's extend this analysis to each players best 12 years, ranked by PER. This gives us a ranking of primes

Barkley's best 12 year run (1986 - 1997):

23.9 PPG, 25.5 PER, .547%, 12.0 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG

Malone's best 12 year run (1988 - 1999):

27.4 PPG, 25.4 PER, .529%, 10.8 RPG, 3.5 APG, 1.5 SPG, 0.8 BPG

Duncan's best 12 year run (1998 - 2009):

21.4 PPG, 25.0 PER, .507%, 11.7 RPG, 3.2 APG, 0.8 SPG, 2.4 BPG

KG's best 12 year run (1999 - 2010):

21.3 PPG, 24.8 PER, .496%, 11.8 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG

Nowitzki's best 12 year run (2001 - 2012):

24.1 PPG, 24.5 PER, .478%, 8.7 RPG, 2.7 APG, 0.9 SPG, 1.0 BPG


Let's contract this analysis to each players best 5 years, ranked by PER. This gives a ranking of peaks

Barkley's best 5 year run (1987 - 1991):

26.0 PPG, 27.1 PER, .586%, 12.1 RPG, 4.0 APG, 1.6 SPG, 1.0 BPG

KG's best 5 year run (1999 - 2010):

22.7 PPG, 27.0 PER, .500%, 13.3 RPG, 5.0 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG

Duncan's best 5 year run (2001 - 2005):

22.8 PPG, 26.3 PER, .504%, 12.3 RPG, 3.3 APG, 0.8 SPG, 2.6 BPG

Nowitzki's best 5 year run (2003 - 2007):

24.8 PPG, 26.0 PER, .473%, 9.2 RPG, 3.0 APG, 1.0 SPG, 1.1 BPG

Malone's best 5 year run (1989 - 1993)**:

28.8 PPG, 25.6 PER, .537%, 11.2 RPG, 3.1 APG, 1.4 SPG, 0.8 BPG

**Malone's best 5 were tough, because his best scoring, rebounding and efficiency years were not the same as his best defensive and facilitating years. These top 5 are not his top 5 by PER, but his top 5 by scoring/rebounding/efficiency.

Anyway, stats give us

Prime: Barkley>Malone>Duncan>KG>Nowitzki

Peak: Barkley>KG>Duncan>Nowitzki>Malone or Barkley>KG>Malone>Duncan>Nowitzki (depending on where you want to put Malone's peak, and how you want to quantify 'peak')

And everything else gives us

Career: Duncan>Malone>Barkley>Nowitzki>KG

I don't see how can you come to such absolute conclusions from these stats as who you rank higher might come down to personal preference like what you want from your 4 when the stats are this close.

And saying a player's prime is 12 years is way too long. I would say it's closer to 7-8 while a peak is 3-5.

[CelticBaller]

A HOFer

Top 25

Those wasted years in Minnesota will never be given back to him, smh

[Smoke117]

Somewhere in the 14-19 range.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Anyone saying Dirk > Garnett doesn't deserve to post here, and should be banned.

[RRR3]

Anyone saying Dirk > Garnett doesn't deserve to post here, and should be banned.
I won't pretend I watched either of them nearly enough in their primes to make a judgement, but I'm pretty sure no one dared suggest Dirk was better until 2011. Revisionist history based off a ring he won mainly because LeBron turned into Evan Turner.

[SamuraiSWISH]

I won't pretend I watched either of them nearly enough in their primes to make a judgement, but I'm pretty sure no one dared suggest Dirk was better until 2011. Revisionist history based off a ring he won mainly because LeBron turned into Evan Turner.
:applause:

[Smoke117]

I won't pretend I watched either of them nearly enough in their primes to make a judgement, but I'm pretty sure no one dared suggest Dirk was better until 2011. Revisionist history based off a ring he won mainly because LeBron turned into Evan Turner.

They certainly didn't. I remember how overrated Dirk instantly became here after that championship...it was a joke.

[SamuraiSWISH]

They certainly didn't. I remember how overrated Dirk instantly became here after that championship...it was a joke.
Seriously. Where Jason Terry arguably out performed him in the series.

[Gotterdammerung]

I watched KG play for his entire career, and rank him in the 20 to 30 tier with Scottie Pippen, Rick Barry, John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, etc. :cheers:

[Smoke117]

I watched KG play for his entire career, and rank him in the 20 to 30 tier with Scottie Pippen, Rick Barry, John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, etc. :cheers:

Well...good job on disrespecting him I guess. (and I say that when Scottie is my favorite player of all time) He's on a different tier above those guys.

[AussieSteve]

Anyone saying Dirk > Garnett doesn't deserve to post here, and should be banned.


KG = better player
Dirk = greater career

IMO.

Mainly because, even though KG was clearly the better at his peak, Dirk has been great for much longer. Also Dirk's ring trumps KGs ring, based on who they played with and against in the finals.

It's similar to how I would say that Barkley was better than Malone, but would not argue against Malone being ranked higher than Barkley, because Malone's career output was vastly greater.

[plowking]

At Garnett's peak he was 1 and 2 in the league with Duncan.

Everybody always talks about Duncan in 2003...KG NARROWLY lost MVP to him that year and then almost unanimously topped him the next year.

How could they be that far apart when they were that close in their primes and had similar longevity? Something doesn't add up.

Mid teens to late teens seems like the right place for him.

How? His accomplishments don't come close to Duncan. Nor a lot of guys in that range.

He definitely isn't top 10, we can all agree on that. Then you have guys like Moses Malone, Oscar, Kobe, Hakeem, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Kevin Durant, Wade, Julius Erving, Baylor, etc.

That is another 10 guys who have all achieved more than him, or in the lone case of Durant, have had a better peak. So how is he in the teens?

Garnett is overrated like crazy. He is a 2nd option, and one of the best at that. He is the Scottie Pippen of PF's. They even have nearly the same amount of 1st All NBA appearances. Pippen has more rings, Garnett has an MVP over him.

Garnett is in the 30-40 range.

[plowking]

I won't pretend I watched either of them nearly enough in their primes to make a judgement, but I'm pretty sure no one dared suggest Dirk was better until 2011. Revisionist history based off a ring he won mainly because LeBron turned into Evan Turner.

Dirk not getting his credit was due to him supposedly being a "softy" Euro. When that was far from the truth, but the narrative at the time fit.

Garnett performed worse in the playoffs than Dirk did, and he never got the same criticism.

Dirk took a worse team to the finals twice, and actually won once as the underdog, and as the top dog on the team. Dirk was just a far better offensive player, and it trumps what Garnett brings to the court.

[Smoke117]

How? His accomplishments don't come close to Duncan. Nor a lot of guys in that range.

He definitely isn't top 10, we can all agree on that. Then you have guys like Moses Malone, Oscar, Kobe, Hakeem, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Kevin Durant, Wade, Julius Erving, Baylor, etc.

That is another 10 guys who have all achieved more than him, or in the lone case of Durant, have had a better peak. So how is he in the teens?

Garnett is overrated like crazy. He is a 2nd option, and one of the best at that. He is the Scottie Pippen of PF's. They even have nearly the same amount of 1st All NBA appearances. Pippen has more rings, Garnett has an MVP over him.

Garnett is in the 30-40 range.

You are a ****ing retard. :facepalm

[aj1987]

They certainly didn't. I remember how overrated Dirk instantly became here after that championship...it was a joke.
Some people (AutisticWater) have him top 15. Shit's a joke. :oldlol:

[Gotterdammerung]

Well...good job on disrespecting him I guess. (and I say that when Scottie is my favorite player of all time) He's on a different tier above those guys.

Well, for me, its a combination of factors: great career, highest peak, production, intangibles, etc. KG could be better than some of those guys at a certain thing, but worse at others. Not everything is under the player's control - like getting drafted to the right team with the right coach, or the luck of being surrounded by the right guys, etc., etc.

At the very tip top of the mountain you have guys who have been in the conversation for the Greatest Player Ever. Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Bird, LBJ, etc.
:lebronamazed:
In the next tier, you have All-time greats who won a lot or were prototypes at their positions. Doctor J, Bryant, O'Neal, Moses.
:kobe:

So, the Big Ticket is rightuflly where he belongs with champs like Isiah and Pippen and Barry. It is no disrespect, especially when we are talking about a professional league that's been around for over 60 years. :cheers:

Since I am a historian of the game, and having lived long enough, I have the right to make these observations. Moreover, and most importantly - I am not talking about you or your opinions, so don't feel so threatened. :oldlol:

[Young X]

How? His accomplishments don't come close to Duncan. Nor a lot of guys in that range.

He definitely isn't top 10, we can all agree on that. Then you have guys like Moses Malone, Oscar, Kobe, Hakeem, Karl Malone, David Robinson, Kevin Durant, Wade, Julius Erving, Baylor, etc.

That is another 10 guys who have all achieved more than him, or in the lone case of Durant, have had a better peak. So how is he in the teens?

Garnett is overrated like crazy. He is a 2nd option, and one of the best at that. He is the Scottie Pippen of PF's. They even have nearly the same amount of 1st All NBA appearances. Pippen has more rings, Garnett has an MVP over him.

Garnett is in the 30-40 range.LMFAO

2nd option? He led the championship Celtics team in playoff scoring. He was the #1 option on his teams for his entire prime.

There's so many things you're wrong about in this post.

First of all, Durant did not peak higher than KG. And even if he did, he's only played 8 full seasons (only 6 at superstar level) and has NOT achieved more than Garnett. No way in hell should he already be ranked higher.

2nd, why would you mention Robertson as someone who achieved more? What exactly did he do to be ranked that much higher than KG?

Garnett has a an MVP, ring, DPOY, multiple All-NBA first team selections and defensive 1st team selections and you're listing players that either don't have MVP's, rings, or as many All-NBA teams as guys who achieved more. :biggums:

Garnett is clearly a more dominant player than Pippen, they're objectively not on the same level as players.

I know what the problem is here. I think you, like most posters here just don't see the importance of the defensive side of the court. At least not as much as you should.

[Smoke117]

LMFAO

2nd option? He led the championship Celtics team in playoff scoring. He was the #1 option on his teams for his entire prime.

There's so many things you're wrong about in this post.

First of all, Durant did not peak higher than KG. And even if he did, he's only played 9 full seasons and has NOT achieved more than Garnett. No way in hell should he already be ranked over him.

2nd, why would you mention Robertson as someone who achieved more than Garnett. What exactly did he do to be ranked that much higher than KG?

Garnett has a an MVP, ring, DPOY, multiple All-NBA first team selections and defensive 1st team selections and you're listing players that either don't have MVP's, rings, or as many All-NBA teams as guys who achieved more. :biggums:

Garnett is clearly a more dominant player than Pippen, they're objectively not on the same level as players.

I know what the problem is here. I think you, like most posters here just don't see the importance of the defensive side of the ball. At least not as much as you should.

https://media.giphy.com/media/NnGGHE0muVqpO/giphy.gif

I still can't believe he said that stupid ass shit. 30-40? Jesus christ. :facepalm A lot of people really do underrate defense in general. They seem to underrate Garnett as a playmaker and passer too...he was one of the greatest passing big men ever. You really didn't see his passing as much once he was on the Celtics as he didn't dominate the ball anymore, so maybe that's why people underrate it so much.

[NBAGOAT]

i remember a year by year comparison for dirk and kobe in a dirk vs kobe. The thing is KG actually has a decent case if you do it for him and Kobe. It's pretty uncontroversial how the years turn out.. I think it's pretty clear KG was better 97-00 and 03-05. Kobe was clearly better every year from 06-13. What both guys did from 14-16 is pretty irrelevant. That makes 8 years for Kobe to 7years for KG. 01 and 02 are the tough ones and I lean Kobe for both but if you think Kg was better both years, he actually has a 9-8 edge. Ofc that way of comparing careers is simplistic(Kobe's edge in later years is bigger) but it should say something about KG career wise that he compares to Kobe who's top 11.

[Dragonyeuw]

Garnett is in the 30-40 range.


:biggums: :wtf:

[pauk]

Top 20 somewhere... but as far his talent / basketball ability goes (both ends considered) i think might be the best ive seen from a PF (yes, better than Duncan)...

[$LakerGold]

https://media.giphy.com/media/NnGGHE0muVqpO/giphy.gif

I still can't believe he said that stupid ass shit. 30-40? Jesus christ. :facepalm A lot of people really do underrate defense in general. They seem to underrate Garnett as a playmaker and passer too...he was one of the greatest passing big men ever. You really didn't see his passing as much once he was on the Celtics as he didn't dominate the ball anymore, so maybe that's why people underrate it so much.
They only remember the KG who played for the Celtics towards the end of his time there & so on, then sees flashes of his prime of what KG was.

People need to remember the shots he was creating for himself during the Minny days, especially now when people say he's limited offensively. Minny-KG was SICK.

[ArbitraryWater]

Some people (AutisticWater) have him top 15. Shit's a joke. :oldlol:

.. and so does the biggest basketball forum/community in the world :oldlol:

another aj fail I guess

[ArbitraryWater]

Anyone saying Dirk > Garnett doesn't deserve to post here, and should be banned.

It seems to be the consensus nowadays.. Im sorry you cant take it. :lol

https://i.gyazo.com/cd9ada06a9f67f2825d576ad3dc72173.png

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1125587&view=viewpoll
Dirk

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/kevin-garnett-vs-dirk-nowitzki.203021215/
Dirk

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=151531223
KG

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/27t8ti/kg_or_dirk_whose_career_would_you_rather_have/
Dirk

http://thesmokingcuban.com/2016/09/09/time-rank-dirk-nowitzki-vs-kevin-garnett/

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1424442
Dirk, again...

sorry to burst your, and RRR3's bubble.

These are merely a few results from the first page of googling it... the bodybuilding one was the only one with KG.

[CelticBaller]

LMFAO

2nd option? He led the championship Celtics team in playoff scoring. He was the #1 option on his teams for his entire prime.

There's so many things you're wrong about in this post.

First of all, Durant did not peak higher than KG. And even if he did, he's only played 8 full seasons (only 6 at superstar level) and has NOT achieved more than Garnett. No way in hell should he already be ranked higher.

2nd, why would you mention Robertson as someone who achieved more? What exactly did he do to be ranked that much higher than KG?

Garnett has a an MVP, ring, DPOY, multiple All-NBA first team selections and defensive 1st team selections and you're listing players that either don't have MVP's, rings, or as many All-NBA teams as guys who achieved more. :biggums:

Garnett is clearly a more dominant player than Pippen, they're objectively not on the same level as players.

I know what the problem is here. I think you, like most posters here just don't see the importance of the defensive side of the court. At least not as much as you should.
Lmao, plowking is a clown.



Garnett a second option lol, like the dude didn't lead his team to a WCF with Wally Z as his second option

[aj1987]

.. and so does the biggest basketball forum/community in the world :oldlol:

another aj fail I guess
Which one is that? No rational unbiased person with even an ounce of basketball IQ wouldn't put him anywhere NEAR the top 15.

Seriously, if LeBron doesn't choke in '11, would Dirk even be in the top 40 or 50?

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk not getting his credit was due to him supposedly being a "softy" Euro. When that was far from the truth, but the narrative at the time fit.

Garnett performed worse in the playoffs than Dirk did, and he never got the same criticism.

Dirk took a worse team to the finals twice, and actually won once as the underdog, and as the top dog on the team. Dirk was just a far better offensive player, and it trumps what Garnett brings to the court.

Its best to not converse with morons who believe Dirk's claim over KG lies on revisionist history... my goodness. RRR3 with the anti argument. Says he doesnt know shit about them and then goes ahead to say more meaningless drivel.

[ArbitraryWater]

Which one is that? No rational unbiased person with even an ounce of basketball IQ wouldn't put him anywhere NEAR the top 15.

Seriously, if LeBron doesn't choke in '11, would Dirk even be in the top 40 or 50?






































.....


https://media.giphy.com/media/56UkelbPn5SBa/giphy.gif


(the word you're looking for is "would")
You have to realize at one point, the world doesn't always see eye to eye with some know nothing Indian jack shit.

Thats RGM, by the way.

And its tired to talk of LeBron's disappearing act like it diminishes Dirk's act of greatness, when Dirk was battling the odds in the first place.... so, I guess thanks for offseting/equalizing/balancing the stakes a bit, LeBron.

[aj1987]

.....


https://media.giphy.com/media/56UkelbPn5SBa/giphy.gif


(the word you're looking for is "would")
You have to realize at one point, the world doesn't always see eye to eye with some know nothing Indian jack shit.

Thats RGM, by the way.

And its tired to talk of LeBron's disappearing act like it diminishes Dirk's act of greatness, when Dirk was battling the odds in the first place.... so, I guess thanks for offseting/equalizing/balancing the stakes a bit, LeBron.
I'm on a phone in a flight. So yeah, I really don't care too much about the spelling mistakes.

RealGM has him at 41:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=830301

I think that's retarded though. I'd put him at ~23.

[plowking]

MJ, Wilt, Bron, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kobe, Robertson, Baylor, West, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Julius Erving, Wade, Barkley, Robinson, Durant, Dirk, etc.

I was wrong. 22-30 you could put him. A lot of players I'd rate him similarly with in that range. Not 30-40 like I said.

[Father Prime]

Outside the top 20 like Dirk

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm on a phone in a flight. So yeah, I really don't care too much about the spelling mistakes.

RealGM has him at 41:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=830301

I think that's retarded though. I'd put him at ~23.

You just linked a 2008 thread you moron :oldlol: Forgiven for phone inconveniences

Here is the 2015 one:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924#start_here

edit: looks like he's 16, not 15

So much for "No rational unbiased person with even an ounce of basketball IQ wouldn't put him anywhere NEAR the top 15."

[TheOne]

Top 6 PF.
Top 25~30 overall.

[NBAGOAT]

I'm on a phone in a flight. So yeah, I really don't care too much about the spelling mistakes.

RealGM has him at 41:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=830301

I think that's retarded though. I'd put him at ~23.

both your lists are really outdated... Here's the most recent one from 2014 which shouldn't have changed much. http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924 KG at 11 and Dirk at 16. KG really looks good with impact stats so KG's getting more love therenow. Dirk's not top 15 imo but he has a case and he's definitely top 20.

[HenryGarfunkle]

You just linked a 2008 thread you moron
:roll: :roll: :roll:

That's a worse blunder than Plowking saying KG is 30-40. Lots of fails up in here.

[RRR3]

AW trumpeting RGM poll as being evidence of Dirks ranking, forgetting that it has KG over Dirk.

:roll:

[feyki]

You just linked a 2008 thread you moron :oldlol: Forgiven for phone inconveniences

Here is the 2015 one:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924#start_here

edit: looks like he's 16, not 15

So much for "No rational unbiased person with even an ounce of basketball IQ wouldn't put him anywhere NEAR the top 15."

Damn , that avatar killing me :roll: :roll: :roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

AW trumpeting RGM poll as being evidence of Dirks ranking, forgetting that it has KG over Dirk.

:roll:

You realize it was merely to show people rank Dirk in the top 15? (Or in this case near it)

lol


Damn , that avatar killing me :roll: :roll: :roll:

what do you mean?

[Milbuck]

Anyone who has KG outside of their top 25-30 is brain damaged, seriously.

[juju151111]

Anybody who has KG out of top 25 doesn't know shit about basketball.

[Smoke117]

Anybody who has KG out of top 25 doesn't know shit about basketball.

This. You could legitimately say he's 15-25 somewhere.

[aj1987]

You just linked a 2008 thread you moron :oldlol: Forgiven for phone inconveniences

Here is the 2015 one:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924#start_here

edit: looks like he's 16, not 15

So much for "No rational unbiased person with even an ounce of basketball IQ wouldn't put him anywhere NEAR the top 15."
Look at where they ranked KG, you ****ing idiot. :roll:

Seriously though. One fluke ring because of LeBron's choke, and he's suddenly a top 20 player. :roll:

[plowking]

Look at where they ranked KG, you ****ing idiot. :roll:

To be fair, KG that high is stupid. I mean they have Ewing, KG and Dirk above Wade, and that just isn't close to true.

[ArbitraryWater]

Look at where they ranked KG, you ****ing idiot. :roll:

Seriously though. One fluke ring because of LeBron's choke, and he's suddenly a top 20 player. :roll:

I said it to one handicapped person in RRR3, and you're the next:

Irrelevant. Its about pointing out that Dirk IS commonly ranked in the top 15, or near it.

I know you hate it, but untwist those panties and it will be fine.

P.S.: RGM is known to have a dear relationship with KG.. hell, they're infamous for it.

[KKittles30]

#3 Ranked PF of all time Behind Malone and Duncan.

[aj1987]

I said it to one handicapped person in RRR3, and you're the next:

Irrelevant. Its about pointing out that Dirk IS commonly ranked in the top 15, or near it.

I know you hate it, but untwist those panties and it will be fine.

P.S.: RGM is known to have a dear relationship with KG.. hell, they're infamous for it.
So, RealGM is full of biased idiots who ate not capable of being objective?

Once again, hold the massive L, you brain dead moron. :roll: :roll:

Dirk is nowhere close to the top 15 and if it wasn't for LeBron's choke, he wouldn't be top 40.

A one dimensional scorer who can't pass, defend, and is not even an elite rebounder for his position. :roll:

[Vancouver-Grizz]

does it matter?

He is not top 10 for sure.... maybe top 10 in PF...

but who ever discusses top player outside of ten????

[greatest-ever]

MJ, Wilt, Bron, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kobe, Robertson, Baylor, West, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Julius Erving, Wade, Barkley, Robinson, Durant, Dirk, etc.

I was wrong. 22-30 you could put him. A lot of players I'd rate him similarly with in that range. Not 30-40 like I said.
What? Kd has 0 case over Kg as it stands right now, worse peak, much worse in longevity. If he puts up 3-4 more superstar seasons and wins a couple rings you could maybe make a case. As of now, no argument. I don't think Baylor really has a case either.

[greatest-ever]

does it matter?

He is not top 10 for sure.... maybe top 10 in PF...

but who ever discusses top player outside of ten????
You said Kg is "maybe top 10 pf ever" wtf! He's actually easily top 5 and top 2 for many.

[ArbitraryWater]

So, RealGM is full of biased idiots who ate not capable of being objective?

Once again, hold the massive L, you brain dead moron. :roll: :roll:

Dirk is nowhere close to the top 15 and if it wasn't for LeBron's choke, he wouldn't be top 40.

A one dimensional scorer who can't pass, defend, and is not even an elite rebounder for his position. :roll:

https://media.giphy.com/media/cQtlhD48EG0SY/giphy.gif

[aj1987]

https://media.giphy.com/media/cQtlhD48EG0SY/giphy.gif
Yep, move along little one.

[tamaraw08]

This thread has reached page 12 and we have yet to see the actual stats for KG as compared to the most respected PFs.
Where are the stat geeks now who can provide advanced stats like
PER, WS, TS% etc and compare it to Duncan, Dirk etc?:confusedshrug:

Yes, eye test if very important, personally, I am amused that some are saying he is on par with Duncan because Tim was so polished with his moves inside IMO.
I am a Lakers fan so maybe I am biased, I said it before, if you put a body suit and a mask to KG, that you can't see his rugged face, with eye balls popping, can't hear his growl and not thumping his chest etc? How good is this guy at the low block? His right jump hook and 12 foot turn around is decent to good.
But IMO, Pau's ability to finish with both hands, Al Jefferson's reverse pivot/counter spin etc are better.
Defensively KG is great all around, maybe top 5, so much better than Dirk etc, but again, I would like to see those advanced stats esp PER,TS% etc.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Far as PFs go?

I would place him behind Duncan, Barkley and right there with Dirk/Malone. Not that there are tiers or whatever, everybody with the exception of Duncan is relatively close from an accolades perspective, its just that he didn't do much to separate himself from that pack if you will. Great player. HOF talent. Competitive and fun to watch during his prime. But if we're talking impact? He's right there with most other ATG power forwards, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[ISHGoat]

This thread has reached page 12 and we have yet to see the actual stats for KG as compared to the most respected PFs.
Where are the stat geeks now who can provide advanced stats like
PER, WS, TS% etc and compare it to Duncan, Dirk etc?:confusedshrug:

Yes, eye test if very important, personally, I am amused that some are saying he is on par with Duncan because Tim was so polished with his moves inside IMO.
I am a Lakers fan so maybe I am biased, I said it before, if you put a body suit and a mask to KG, that you can't see his rugged face, with eye balls popping, can't hear his growl and not thumping his chest etc? How good is this guy at the low block? His right jump hook and 12 foot turn around is decent to good.
But IMO, Pau's ability to finish with both hands, Al Jefferson's reverse pivot/counter spin etc are better.
Defensively KG is great all around, maybe top 5, so much better than Dirk etc, but again, I would like to see those advanced stats esp PER,TS% etc.

His advanced stats are tremendous, believe me. Many of my friends have called me to say that KG has absolutely tremendous PER, TS%, etc. Just the other day I was chatting with KG and we were talking about how great his advanced stats are. They're just great. Great advanced stats.

[tamaraw08]

His advanced stats are tremendous, believe me. Many of my friends have called me to say that KG has absolutely tremendous PER, TS%, etc. Just the other day I was chatting with KG and we were talking about how great his advanced stats are. They're just great. Great advanced stats.

So you talk to him personally, is it possible that you might be biased?:confusedshrug: but anyway, where is that stat you are talking about?

Here is just a sample PER---- Win shares

KG 22.7 -- 191.4

Karl Malone 23.9 -- 234.6

Dirk 23.0 -- 198.8

Duncan 24.2 -- 206

Even Chris Webber has 24.6 PER

[ISHGoat]

So you talk to him personally, is it possible that you might be biased?:confusedshrug: but anyway, where is that stat you are talking about?

Here is just a sample PER---- Win shares

KG 22.7 -- 191.4

Karl Malone 23.9 -- 234.6

Dirk 23.0 -- 198.8

Duncan 24.2 -- 206

Even Chris Webber has 24.6 PER

I was actually just trolling you, using Donald's speech tactics, but I shall respond seriously now.

Career average PER is highly misleading. It rewards players that quickly enter prime/peak and then quickly retire. Similarily, aggregate Win Shares are equally misleading. I believe someone like Derrick Fisher would dominate the aggregate stats, but nobody would take Derrick Fisher over someone like Kyle Lowry.

According to regular single season PER, WS48, BPM, etc, KG peaked higher than all of that list, including Duncan. He had two peak years in Minnesota where he lead the league with 29.4 and 28.2 PER, with 9.9 and 9.7 BPM in 04 and 05.

In terms of advanced stats, Garnett has led the league 8 times in (combined) PER, WS48, BPM, and VORP.

For comparison, Duncan has never led the league in PER and only has a combined 2 instances of leading the league in advanced metrics. His regular season high of 7.6 BPM, along with 8.1 VORP, led the 2001-2002 regular season.

By these same evaluation criteria, Dirk would seem a better player than Duncan, leading the league 4 times in advanced metrics, with a peak PER of 28.1 (league high) and leading WS48 metrics of .248, .275, and .278.

Although this analysis is obviously not rigorous nor conclusive, I think it is pretty clear that Garnett is in the same conversation as the players you listed, if not topping them.