Reminder: Wilt single handedly lost the 1969 finals

[Mr Feeny]

Just to preface what I'm saying, this thread isn't for Wilt fanboys who follow me around like a lapdog and offer every excuse in the world, blaming coaches, teammates and ball boys for Wilt's awful play when the stakes are high.

In 1969, the Lakers and the Celtics played a tough 7 game series which the Lakers lost by only a few points.
Lakers guard Jerry WEST played the series of his life and averaged a then-record 40.8 ppg and had 42 in the 7th and decisive game.

Why didn't the Lakers win, you ask? How did they blow a 2-0 and 3-2 lead you ask? How did they lose the 7th game at home you ask?

Well it's very simple. They had the single biggest choker in nba history on their team. The man who's career scoring average fell by 12 ppg from the regular season to the finals.
The man who in this particular close series, let Jerry West down by averaging 12 ppg.

In game 4, with a chance to go up 3-1 and virtually seal the title, this particular choker had 8 points. In game 6 with a chance to close the series, this choker repeated that 8 point performance.

In the 7th and decisive game as the Lakers poured their blood, sweat, and tears into the game AND Jerry West put on a 42 point triple double masterpiece, the choker MISSED MORE FREE THROWS THAN THE FINAL RESULT MARGIN

Alas, the tragic tale of how Jerry West - a hero - was let down by the biggest catastrophe of a series which culminated in the biggest choked in nba history by a single player.

Let's remember this day folks. Mind you, I fully expect my lapdog to come in here crying and trying to blame Wilt's coach for him missing more free throws than the spread in the final game and single handedly losing the series.

:applause:

[Dray n Klay]

:biggums:



Damn what a choker


:yaohappy: :hammertime:

[Mr Feeny]

:biggums:



Damn what a choker


:yaohappy: :hammertime:


Meanwhile a real top 3 goat shows how it's done in game 7's its 37, 12 and 5 threes in 2013 and then a 27, 11, 11 , 3 , 3 triple double in 2016.

That's how's it's done folks:bowdown:

[Proctor]

Wilt is overly romanticized but he is no doubt 100x the physical specimen Lebron is and 5x the defensive player.

[Kblaze8855]

Why do people make stupid topics they clearly know are invalid then make it clear they know....by mentioning the obvious responses to come as if that invalidates them?

When the coach wont play you the last 5 minutes of game 7 out of spite...and you lose...and he immediately becomes the most hated man in town and has to resign like a week later?

The idea that you single handily lost the game while not being allowed to play is ****ing idiotic. It just is. Talking about missing more FTs than the final margin. It was a 2 point game. Several people missed 2 FTs or more. Hell Jerry West missed 4....doesnt mean he makes all 4 and they win the title. Basketball does not work that way.

An 8-10 point game for Lakers wilt was hardly unusual....or something that means they lose. he had 4 points when they beat the Celtics in game 2. He had 9 when they beat the Celtics end of the regular season. He had 13 in another finals win that year. 15 in another(including the game winner). He didnt lead by scoring on the lakers...he played D and rebounded....started the break. He could score...but didnt try. He had 60 and 66 like a week apart when SI ran a story claiming he couldnt score anymore. He just did it to prove a point...but he knew it wasnt his role anymore.

Using his lack of scoring to hate when its probably the most unselfish display of a scorer doing whats best for the team..ever....is just lame. Who..in history...can drop 60 at will...and takes 8 shots a game while watching his teammates thrive? Who does that? Wilt had his issues....but he did what his coach told him to do....and what he was asked to do...was shut down the paint and start the break. Not score. And you know it.

People KNOW IT...and talk about averages....as if he scored 6-10 points out of ineptitude. The least minutes per game he EVER averaged in the playoffs? 46.2. He would play entire playoff runs...and never come out of a game. He played 5 entire playoffs without rest. He played over 47 minutes a game in the playoffs at 36. He took 7 shots a game.

Have you any idea how many looks you must pass up for the sake of your teammates...to take 7 shots a game in 47 minutes a night? He wasnt trying to score as a Laker. You all know it. Hating on a lack of it...when he made no effort to do it?

Are you dudes just dense? Nobody is dense enough to think someone who takes 6 shots in 54 minutes was just....failing to score. He played the role he was asked....a role that won him his second ring....and helped his team win 33 games in a row. Using finals averages against someone who made most of them when he was intentionally limiting his scoring for the greater good is just being a douchebag.

Its almost as bad as giving someone single handed blame for losing a game his coach refused to put him back into....

Be for real. At least a little.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kblaze that is a huge wall of excuse making... This series is one of the worst for a top 10 player ever, you can admit it..

[LAZERUSS]

Not nearly as bad as Lebron in the 2007 Finals, though.

SINGLE-HANDEDLY cost his hard-working team the Finals with his...get this...
.356 FG%! Yes you read it right...that is not a misprint... a .356 FG%.

But it gets better. After taking his team down in flames in everyone of the first three games...he then topped it with a series clinching finale never seen before. While his teammates easily outplayed the Spurs, ... 3 inch LeChoke went 10-30 from the field (yep...that is 10-30...or 20 missed shots)...AND... 2-6 from the FT Line... in a ONE POINT loss.

Chamberlain put up a game seven of 18 points, on 7-8 shooting from the floor, with 27 rebounds, and 10 blocked shots...yep...a TRIPLE DOUBLE...in his game seven. How did the Lakers lose that game? With Wilt saddled to the bench in the last five minutes of the game by a coach who proved he would rather lose a Finals without Wilt, then win one with him.

Incidently, Wilt had a GAME-HIGH TS% of .621. His opposing center, who would win a ring, shot 2-7 from the field, 2-4 from the line, and had an overall TS% of .333.

Again, Wilt's COACH...with his offensive philosophy...

https://books.google.com/books?id=9BaqPfGcI84C&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=butch+van+breda+kolff+had+chamberlain+playing+t he+high+post&source=bl&ots=rQxpX4Ys7l&sig=oosFtJ3aB-NUrdTlS-5xi8-eHyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi70fWD0svKAhVDuYMKHSvWDRgQ6AEIQTAJ#v=on epage&q=butch%20van%20breda%20kolff%20had%20chamberlain% 20playing%20the%20high%20post&f=false


Van Breda Kolff: "So, we were able to throw the ball down low to Wilt, and he'd score, but it was an awful offense to watch."

Wilt: Butch wanted me to play the high post, so that Elgin could drive, but they got me for rebounding. Why pull a guy away from the basket when you want him to rebpund?"

So the brilliant Van Breda Kolff had the greatest low post scorer in NBA history..the most unstoppable offensive machine in the history of the game...playing the HIGH POST. Why? So that Elgin Baylor could shoot .397 in the Finals. But it wasn't just the .397, either. In game three, a six point loss, Baylor shot 4-18 from the field. In game four, a one point loss, Elgin not only shot 2-14 from the floor, he also went 1-6 from the line. Then, in game seven, he went 8-22, in a two point loss.

When Jerry West found out that VBK had basically benched Chamberlain in the last few minutes of the game, he was furious. Vna Breda Kolff, to his credit, resigned before being fired. His hatred for Wilt ultimately cost the city of Los Angeles their first ever NBA title, and also cost him his career.

Fortunately for Laker fans, LA brought in Bill Sharman a couple of years later, who essentially drove Elgin into retirement...and the result was an immediate 33 game winning streak, and a then NBA record of 69-13.

Wilt then chopped down a peak Kareem in the WCF's, holding him to a horrific .414 FG% in the last four games, and by ALL accounts, outplayed KAJ who had come off the greatest regular season of his career. Time Magazine went so far as to claim that Chamberlain DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem in that series.

In the Finals, and with Jerry West puking all over the floor in the series (a .325 FG%...even worse than LeChoke's '07 mark of .356 BTW)...Wilt dominated the Knicks and their five HOFers, capped off with a series clinching, 24-29-8 game, on 10-14 shooting...and all accomplished with one badly sprained wrist, and the other wrist...FRACTURED... led LA to their first ever title in the city of Angels... en route to the FMVP.

[Im Still Ballin]

Wilt is overly romanticized but he is no doubt 100x the physical specimen Lebron is and 5x the defensive player.
Opponents' shooting against LeBron in Games 5, 6, and 7 in the Finals

Overall: 2.7/12.7, 21.1%, opponents usually shoot 47.9%, -26.8

Threes: .7/5, 13.3%, opponents usually shoot 40.4%; -27%

Twos: 2/7.7, 26.1%, opponents usually shoot 53.3%, -27.2%

Less than 6 ft: 1/5, 20%, opponents usually shoot 62.4%, -42.4%

Less than 10 ft: 1.3/6, 22.2%, opponents usually shoot 57.3%; -35.1%

Greater than 15 ft: 1/6.3, 15.8%; opponents usually shoot 40.5%; -24.7%

LeBron 2016 Playoffs (21 games)

3.2/10.2 Defensive FGs defended

Overall, held opponents to 31.8% FG (Their average FG% was 45.9%

This is a differential of -14.1% (He held opponents to -14.8% their average FG%), which is by far the best mark... For comparison, Draymond was next best at -8.4%

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...?sort=GP&dir=1

To break it down even further to perimeter defense and Rim protection..

3PT DEFENSE

LeBron was the Cavs best 3pt defender, and along with Livingtson and context taken into account, the best 3pt defenders

0.9/3.8 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponent 3pt shooters to 24.1% (Their average 3PT% was 36.7%)

This is a differential of -12.6%

Only one guy who played 15+ playoff games (Shawn Livingston) had a slightly better differential (Abet on lower volume)

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...USMINUS&dir=-1

RIM PROTECTION

1.4/3.3 Defensive Field Goals Defended

Held opponents at the rim to 43.5%

The best rim protection % on the Cavs

For reference Bogut held opponents to 46.6%, and Tristan Thompson 49.2%

SOURCE: http://stats.nba.com/defensivehub/#!...&sort=GP&dir=1

...

Here's also some stuff comparing him and DPOY winner Kawhi Leonard in the regular season;

The usual field goal percent of the shooter that the player is defending
LeBron - 44.8%
Kawhi - 44.9%

Defense Dashboard

2pt FGs - Players shot 8.2% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
2pt FGs - Players shot 7.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
3pt FGs - Players shots 2.7% worse than their average when defended by LeBron
3pt FGs - Players shot 1.3% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi
Overall - Players shot 7.4% worse than their average when defended by LeBron on 8.4 Defended FGs Per Game
Overall - Players shot 5.7% worse than their average when defended by Kawhi on 9.4 Defended FGs Per Game

Play type

When they were the closest isolation defender
LeBron - 69 possessions, .59 points per possession allowed, 28.8% eFG
Kawhi - 61 possessions, .69 points per possession allowed, 31% eFG

When they were the closest defender to the PnR ball handler
LeBron - 144 possessions, .66 ppp allowed, 37.1 eFG
Kawhi - 243 possessions, .65 ppp allowed, 35.8 eFG

When they were the roll man defender
LeBron - 10 possessions, .7 ppp, 38.9 eFG
Kawhi - 30 possessions, .5 ppp, 27.8 eFG

Post defense
LeBron - 43 possessions, .77 ppp, 40 eFG
Kawhi - 31 possessions, .77 ppp, 41.7 eFG

On spot up shooters
LeBron - 210 possessions, .8 ppp, 41.6 eFG
Kawhi - 200 possessions, .88 ppp, 43.6 eFG

Hand-offs
LeBron - 43 possessions, .49 ppp, 33.9 eFG
Leonard - 58 possessions, .72 ppp, 39.5 eFG

Off screens
LeBron - 78 possessions, .74 ppp, 40.8 eFG
Kawhi - 96 possessions, 1.05 ppp, 51.2 eFG

Finals Averages...
2.3 Blocks a game
2.6 Steals a game

2016 Playoff Averages
2.3 Steals a game
1.3 Blocks a game

In the last 3 games, LeBron averaged 3 blocks and 3 steals per game

LeBron had the second highest playoff DPM (5.8) in a championship winning playoff run of all time only behind Ben Wallace in '04 (6.0)

[Mr Feeny]

K Blaze it's simple enough.

The guy missed 9 free throws and they lost by a few points. How exactly do we blame his coach for that?

No chance. The scrub choked away the series and cost West his title:facepalm

[Mr Feeny]

Lazar. Nothin is worse than Wilt in the finals. I'm sorry brother.


Lebron is a 28 ppg, 10 rpg, 7.5 apg player in finals while having 3 titles as lead dog.
Wilt is an 18 ppg finals scorer while being carried to his 2 rings.

Lebron became the first player in history to lead both teams in all categories.
Wilt became the first player in history to singlehandedly cost his team a final.

Lebron is a top 3 goat.
Wilt is atleast a tier or two below. (Kobe about 4 tiers below)

Lebron is the greatest game 7 player in history.
Ilt can't score as much abs lebron in game 7's.

Lebron played against players who could dribble with 2 hands.
Wilt played against players who dribble with one hand and who my grandmother would block.

[Mr Feeny]

The idea that you single handily lost the game while not being allowed to play is ****ing idiotic. It just is. Talking about missing more FTs than the final margin. It was a 2 point game. Several people missed 2 FTs or more. Hell Jerry West missed 4....doesnt mean he makes all 4 and they win the title. Basketball does not work that way.


Be for real. At least a little.

You cant be serious. I don't care if you're a mod; that is plain idiotic. If I have to be banned for criticising your post, then so be it.

West scored FOURTY TWO points. Wilt scored 12. West missed 4 free throws.
Wilt missed more than quadruple the margin.
Quadruple.
You cannot be serious even comparing the two there. That's disingenuous at best. When someone misses 9 free throws and the final score is a 2 point less, we absolutely CAN say that basketball works that way.
This isn't a missed basket or two in mid game that evens out either way. These are NINE misses out of 13. A complete capitulation from someone who is hyped as a top 10 player.

You want to criticise the rest? GO AHEAD. Not one of them gets as hyped as Wilt. If anyone struggled, they deserve some criticism. . As it was, Wilt was the absolute worst of the bunch and if we're holding him to a high standard, then he should hey slaughtered.

We have a Wilt fanboy in this thread who claims that Lebron "quit" in 2010 after he put up 27, 19, 10 but that a 12 point game 7 performance which involved more free throws misses by Wilt than the final margin is ok "because. ..the coach and a stuff"


You people whine about Lebron fans on this board and this is why. We can all SEE that he's held to a much higher standard than anyone who's ever played. Anything but am 30 point triple double and the guy gets killed and gets accused of quitting or choking. Meanwhile, we have people like the Wilt fan lined up making every excuse in the book for a 12 ppg series average and a collapse in game 7 where one player nearly singlehandedly lost his team the series by missing more free throws than Quadruple the margin.

Ban me if you have to or want to. But this is the kind of thing that's just silly. Complain about the Lebron stans all want but the delusion lies with those who can't see through a myopic critique of an all time great who needs to lead every team in points, rebounds, and assists or gets labeled a choker.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

He didn't single handedly lose it, and the coach has a douchey reputation.

I'll say that lebron, aside from 07-11, seems to be better in the finals than wilt though

But the idea that wilt "wilted" in the playoffs is overblown. It was an era where much more of the scoring came from one on one post ups. Much MUCH more. So of course whenever a guy like Russell or Thurmond guarded him, his numbers would drop. Someone compiled a whole list of it but the forum got taken down.

[Psileas]

Kblaze that is a huge wall of excuse making... This series is one of the worst for a top 10 player ever, you can admit it..

No, it isn't. Here are some worse:

Kobe, 2000
Kobe, 2004
Duncan, 2014
Duncan, 2015
Shaq, 2006
Bird, 1981
LeBron, 2007
LeBron, 2011
Magic, 1983
Kareem, 1982
Kareem, 1987
Kareem, 1988
Kareem, 1989

[Mr Feeny]

wilts grandson outchoked him in 2011 tho

Nobody knows more about choking than a 6/24 stan:lol :roll:

[Mr Feeny]

No, it isn't. Here are some worse:

Kobe, 2000
Kobe, 2004
Duncan, 2014
Duncan, 2015
Shaq, 2006
Bird, 1981
LeBron, 2007
LeBron, 2011
Magic, 1983
Kareem, 1982
Kareem, 1987
Kareem, 1988
Kareem, 1989

Some of them were worse performances but not one of them was a bigger choker.
Giving up a 2-0 and 3-2 series lead while missing 9 free throws in a 2 point game 7 loss is the biggest choked of all time.

Nothing is even close. Poor Jerry West having to deal with this:(

[SouBeachTalents]

No, it isn't. Here are some worse:

Kobe, 2000
Kobe, 2004
Duncan, 2014
Duncan, 2015
Shaq, 2006
Bird, 1981
LeBron, 2007
LeBron, 2011
Magic, 1983
Kareem, 1982
Kareem, 1987
Kareem, 1988
Kareem, 1989

Duncan didn't make the Finals in 2015, so if you're referencing his '13 Finals that's absurd, he played very well and would've won FMVP if Pop didn't stupidly bench him twice at the end of Game 6. Even 2014 he played perfectly fine in the Finals. The rest of those were certainly bad, and Wilt's '69 Finals should be added to the list. Even if he wasn't a primary scorer in L.A., having your ppg drop from 21 to 12 is terrible, especially in a series they barely lost

[SouBeachTalents]

Kareem's '87 Finals don't belong either, dude averaged 22/7 and dropped 32 in the Finals clincher at 40 fuccing years old

[Psileas]

Duncan didn't make the Finals in 2015, so if you're referencing his '13 Finals that's absurd, he played very well and would've won FMVP if Pop didn't stupidly bench him twice at the end of Game 6. Even 2014 he played perfectly fine in the Finals. The rest of those were certainly bad, and Wilt's '69 Finals should be added to the list. Even if he wasn't a primary scorer in L.A., having your ppg drop from 21 to 12 is terrible, especially in a series they barely lost

Playing a great series for his age doesn't put Duncan's performance above Wilt's in 1969. Wilt grabbed 25.0 rpg in the series, a 21.8 rate, while playing close to 48 mpg, in other words, with zero rest. His passing was close to matching Baylor's. He blocked 13 shots in game 1 alone, 7 shots in game 5 and some reports mention 10 more in game 7 (a game people blame Wilt on, and yet he ended up with 18/27/10 and, in the few minutes availeble on video, he is seen outplaying Russell apart from like 1 play when Russell outran him in offense). As for the ppg drop, you have to consider that, apart from Russell being the defender he was and limiting him, Wilt barely took any shots so that the hot Jerry West would remain hot. It's not as if he had thrown some brickfest, like 2004 Kobe, which really cost the Lakers that series. Like you mention, this is a series that went to the line. Wilt wasn't even scoring more than his series averages in the games the Lakers won, he was actually scoring less. The Lakers didn't base their success on Wilt's scoring and everyone knew this.
Except trolls and idiots like the OP.

[feyki]

No, it isn't. Here are some worse:

Kobe, 2000
Kobe, 2004
Duncan, 2014
Duncan, 2015 ( :wtf: )
Shaq, 2006
Bird, 1981
LeBron, 2007
LeBron, 2011
Magic, 1983 ( 84 ? )
Kareem, 1982
Kareem, 1987
Kareem, 1988
Kareem, 1989

:no:

[Psileas]

Kareem's '87 Finals don't belong either, dude averaged 22/7 and dropped 32 in the Finals clincher at 40 fuccing years old

Since when is 7 anywhere near a great rebounding series for an all-time GOAT center standard? Not to mention the laughable 0.8 apg and the inferior defense. Heck, he didn't even shoot that great, either and Parish isn't quite as impactful defensively as Russell.
Yes, a great series for a 40 year old. But greater than Wilt's in 1969? Hell, no.

[Psileas]

:no:

Duncan, Kareem, look above. Great series for their age, not greater than Wilt's.
Kareem in '82 wasn't any better than Wilt, either. Still rebounded poorly, his scoring also dropped substantially, despite not facing any center with Russell's defensive tanacity. Didn't receive a single F.MVP vote, while 3 other of his teammates did. He simply had a better team around him.

Bird's '81 is the best series among them all, but given how this OP troll bases his whole moot point on Wilt's ppg to blame him, why not do the same with Bird? Bird simply didn't deliver scoring-wise in most of the Finals. Even lost the F.MVP convincingly to a teammate. But in the end, his team won, because they faced one of the weakest Finals opponents ever, a team with 1 superstar and a few good role players, not a freaking dynasty.

[SouBeachTalents]

Since when is 7 anywhere near a great rebounding series for an all-time GOAT center standard? Not to mention the laughable 0.8 apg and the inferior defense. Heck, he didn't even shoot that great, either and Parish isn't quite as impactful defensively as Russell.
Yes, a great series for a 40 year old. But greater than Wilt's in 1969? Hell, no.

Lol, well that's where you and I simply disagree, you have to take into account context, it's inane to not factor in age when making these evaluations. Kareem had a better Finals for where he was in his career, ditto Duncan, than Wilt did in '69. Looking at statlines you could argue LeBron's 2011 Finals were better than Kareem's '87 Finals, but 18/7/7 from a career 27 ppg scorer in his absolute prime winning 4 MVP's in 5 seasons is a legit bad performance for a player of his caliber

[Psileas]

Lol, well that's where you and I simply disagree, you have to take into account context, it's inane to not factor in age when making these evaluations. Kareem had a better Finals for where he was in his career, ditto Duncan, than Wilt did in '69. Looking at statlines you could argue LeBron's 2011 Finals were better than Kareem's '87 Finals, but 18/7/7 from a career 27 ppg scorer in his absolute prime winning 4 MVP's in 5 seasons is a legit bad performance for a player of his caliber

Obviously we disagree, except if we make an arbitrary age adjustment, which nobody has ever been able to make (or even tried for that matter). What if Wilt had come back at age 50 and averaged 4 ppg and 6 rpg? Would this make this season one of the greatest ever just because it would be great adjusted for age?

[ShawkFactory]

It seems weird to say "reminder" about something when your dad wasn't even potty trained when it happened.

[SouBeachTalents]

Obviously we disagree, except if we make an arbitrary age adjustment, which nobody has ever been able to make (or even tried for that matter). What if Wilt had come back at age 50 and averaged 4 ppg and 6 rpg? Would this make this season one of the greatest ever just because it would be great adjusted for age?

I'm not saying these Finals were "great", but when you factor in where Kareem/Duncan were in their careers, to say their Finals were "bad", I absolutely disagree with that, that was really my biggest issue with your list

[feyki]

Duncan, Kareem, look above. Great series for their age, not greater than Wilt's.
Kareem in '82 wasn't any better than Wilt, either. Still rebounded poorly, his scoring also dropped substantially, despite not facing any center with Russell's defensive tanacity. Didn't receive a single F.MVP vote, while 3 other of his teammates did. He simply had a better team around him.

Bird's '81 is the best series among them all, but given how this OP troll bases his whole moot point on Wilt's ppg to blame him, why not do the same with Bird? Bird simply didn't deliver scoring-wise in most of the Finals. Even lost the F.MVP convincingly to a teammate. But in the end, his team won, because they faced one of the weakest Finals opponents ever, a team with 1 superstar and a few good role players, not a freaking dynasty.

I don't get it , exactly . Are we talking about finals or entire years ?

Wilt was 32 years old . Kareem was 40-15-5-5 player in the finals when he was 32 . Comparing a 32 years old athlete to 38/39 , it's unfair . But i think not a big difference between them . 69 Wilt was 11/07 Lebron type finals performances .

For Bird , people criticize him for 15 PPG in the finals . But he was averaging 20-21 PPG in his first seasons . 80-83 Bird was more like all around , hustle beast rather than a scorer .

[Psileas]

I'm not saying these Finals were "great", but when you factor in where Kareem/Duncan were in their careers, to say their Finals were "bad", I absolutely disagree with that, that was really my biggest issue with your list

This wasn't a matter of whether they were bad, though. This was supposed to be a straight comparison to Wilt's 1969 series. And the point is, while it wasn't a great series among the GOAT players, it's a stretch to call it among the worst. Heck, even Russell's series wasn't statistically better, although he should get credit for his defense (ironically, holding Wilt to stats...still better than Russell's, just as was the case throughout their whole careers).

[Psileas]

I don't get it , exactly . Are we talking about finals or entire years ?

Wilt was 32 years old . Kareem was 40-15-5-5 player in the finals when he was 32 . Comparing a 32 years old athlete to 38/39 , it's unfair . But i think not a big difference between them . 69 Wilt was 11/07 Lebron type finals performances .

For Bird , people criticize him for 15 PPG in the finals . But he was averaging 20-21 PPG in his first season . 80-83 Bird was more like all around , hustle beast rather than scorer .

Finals. This is 1980 Kareem you mentioned, not 1982.
His 1980 Finals were absolutely great. 1982, not so much.

[feyki]

Finals. This is 1980 Kareem you mentioned, not 1982.
His 1980 Finals were absolutely great. 1982, not so much.

But , he was 34 . Wilt outscored by 11 to 34 against Kareem when he was 35 ( Kareem would beat him as like 35 to 20 when Wilt was 34 , if 71 would have been a close series ) .

[Psileas]

But , he was 34 . Wilt outscored by 11 to 34 against Kareem when he was 35 ( Kareem would beat him as like 35 to 20 when Wilt was 34 , if 71 would have been a close series ) .

This sends the discussion elsewhere, but this is a pretty baseless assumption. There's no evidence that Kareem ever held back against Wilt for any reason, especially when their matchups were so hyped. He certainly wasn't holding back in the 2 games the Bucks won easily in '72.

[feyki]

This sends the discussion elsewhere, but this is a pretty baseless assumption. There's no evidence that Kareem ever held back against Wilt for any reason, especially when their matchups were so hyped. He certainly wasn't holding back in the 2 games the Bucks won easily in '72.

Wilt wasn't in a form , which is like his prime as offensive force for 34/35 ages . And same for Kareem . Kareem was limited more on rebounding than scoring/feeding teammates , Wilt had the opposite ; more pivotal game with lower scoring and playmaking .

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze that is a huge wall of excuse making... This series is one of the worst for a top 10 player ever, you can admit it..

When someone is so caught up in hate they blame people for losses they literally were not allowed to play the decisive moments of we move into straight up idiocy. All there is to it.

If you believe someone should take the sole blame for a loss....while not being allowed to play...you are stupid. There is no softer way to put it. Something in your head...is not as it should be. There is wrong...and there is stupid.

Giving someone individual blame for losing a close game they watched the last 5 minutes of...not being allowed to play....is just being an idiot.

[Kblaze8855]

You cant be serious. I don't care if you're a mod; that is plain idiotic. If I have to be banned for criticising your post, then so be it.

If I banned people for being idiots ISH would have 30 members tops.


West scored FOURTY TWO points. Wilt scored 12. West missed 4 free throws.
Wilt missed more than quadruple the margin.
Quadruple.
You cannot be serious even comparing the two there. That's disingenuous at best. When someone misses 9 free throws and the final score is a 2 point less, we absolutely CAN say that basketball works that way.
This isn't a missed basket or two in mid game that evens out either way. These are NINE misses out of 13. A complete capitulation from someone who is hyped as a top 10 player.

So missing 9 in a 2 point game...means you individually lost it...but missing 4 doesnt?


You want to criticise the rest? GO AHEAD. Not one of them gets as hyped as Wilt. If anyone struggled, they deserve some criticism. . As it was, Wilt was the absolute worst of the bunch and if we're holding him to a high standard, then he should hey slaughtered.

Wilt put up 18/27/5 and 7 blocks on 88% shooting. But he was the worst of the bunch...




We have a Wilt fanboy in this thread who claims that Lebron "quit" in 2010 after he put up 27, 19, 10 but that a 12 point game 7 performance which involved more free throws misses by Wilt than the final margin is ok "because. ..the coach and a stuff"

Id say...not being in the game....fairly good reason not to blame one for its loss. I...and 100% of people on this planet...with a hint of fairness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Ckph1tMNU


Injured....treated...kept playing...knee gives out again on the other end...sits for the first time....in the entire playoffs..gets it worked on...asks back in.....coach doesnt let him come back.

Team loses.

You give him full blame for the loss...you are stupid. "Stupid" is the word for such people.



You people whine about Lebron fans on this board and this is why. We can all SEE that he's held to a much higher standard than anyone who's ever played. Anything but am 30 point triple double and the guy gets killed and gets accused of quitting or choking. Meanwhile, we have people like the Wilt fan lined up making every excuse in the book for a 12 ppg series average and a collapse in game 7 where one player nearly singlehandedly lost his team the series by missing more free throws than Quadruple the margin.

Ban me if you have to or want to. But this is the kind of thing that's just silly. Complain about the Lebron stans all want but the delusion lies with those who can't see through a myopic critique of an all time great who needs to lead every team in points, rebounds, and assists or gets labeled a choker.



You really use Wilt Chamberlain....as the example of someone with low standards?

The guy who had 60/30 games with 20 in the 4th and got blamed for losing? The guy who was at times the NBAs leading scorer...rebounder...assister...shot blocker...set still standing shooting percentage records...led what was at the time....the best team ever by record...AND....the second best ever....won 33 games in a row....2 titles...would have 2 finals MVPS had the award existed in the 60s....

And spent 40 years being hated on for it?

This is the guy with low standards?

At one point he led a team to a 47-3 start....won the title that year....and was getting called out for a lack of scoring.

Guy goes from 50 points...every night...to being utterly selfless passing out every time and shooting like 70% as his teammates carry the scoring load on the way to historic rates of winning.....gets hated on anyway. He was hated on for being selfish and losing.....and for being unselfish and winning.

This is the guy you treat like a posterboy for low standards?

You show me anyone else who can get negative articles written after a 65/30 game he loses...while his teammates combine to shoot like 35%....AND get negative articles written for having 8 points and 28 rebounds with 8 assists and 12 blocks in a WIN....because the perception is hes not scoring like hes supposed to and the team didnt win by as much as it should have.

One finals game in 67...he had 16 points....33 rebounds...10 assists...and 9 blocks....one of which was on the potential game winner from Nate thurmond...and he had to answer questions about only having the 16 points? A few days later....10 points...27 rebounds....8 assists...and 15 blocks.

15.

He blocked 15 shots.

People wrote about the 10 points.

That playoffs he had 7 triple doubles...2 of them quadruple doubles.

He had a triple double....followed by a quadruple double...in the finals...and nobody gave a shit. And nobody gives a shit now. Because its Wilt. Anyone else...is among the most celebrated feats in history. Wilt? Nobody even knows. He was one block from back to back quadruple doubles in a finals he WON....and the only takeaway is that he scored only 17ppg which helps drag down his finals averages for know nothings to laugh at.

Nobody in the history of team sports was ever held to a higher standard than Wilt Chamberlain and nobody ever will be.

[Gifted Mind]

No, it isn't. Here are some worse:

Kobe, 2000
Kobe, 2004
Duncan, 2014
Duncan, 2015
Shaq, 2006
Bird, 1981
LeBron, 2007
LeBron, 2011
Magic, 1983
Kareem, 1982
Kareem, 1987
Kareem, 1988
Kareem, 1989

In a vacuum you maybe correct, however I don't think OP was referring to this comparison in a vacuum. It was more based on expectations. Wilt Chamberlain's 1969 finals is one of the worst for Top 10 players based on expectations.

Clearly evaluating players finals performances based on expectations is far more useful and important than evaluating finals performance in a vacuum. A player averaging 30/5/5 regular season at the peak of their careers, and putting up 10/5/5 in the finals in a close series loss, is far more significant than that same player who was averaging 10/5/5 regular season in their final season, and put up 9/5/5 in the finals. While the later performance is worse in a vacuum, the former performance is significantly worse in the overall evaluation of the player.

In short, evaluating final performances purely in a vacuum, is not saying very much. And I don't think that was the intention of the poster you quoted either or at least shouldn't be the basis of any worthwhile discussion.

[Psileas]

In a vacuum you maybe correct, however I don't think OP was referring to this comparison in a vacuum. It was more based on expectations. Wilt Chamberlain's 1969 finals is one of the worst for Top 10 players based on expectations.

Clearly evaluating players finals performances based on expectations is far more useful and important than evaluating finals performance in a vacuum. A player averaging 30/5/5 regular season at the peak of their careers, and putting up 10/5/5 in the finals in a close series loss, is far more significant than that same player who was averaging 10/5/5 regular season in their final season, and put up 9/5/5 in the finals. While the later performance is worse in a vacuum, the former performance is significantly worse in the overall evaluation of the player.

In short, evaluating final performances purely in a vacuum, is not saying very much. And I don't think that was the intention of the poster you quoted either or at least shouldn't be the basis of any worthwhile discussion.

This happens if someone uses the wrong words to phrase something. Using the word "worst" without further explanations isn't specific enough not to get a "comparison in a vacuum" type of response. This is a mini version of the whole "Wilt in the playoffs" thing, when people blindly compare his playoff scoring numbers to his regular season numbers and proceed to call him a non all-time great playoff performer. Just because his playoff numbers can't much his regular season ones, although they still blow out of the water the playoff numbers of most other all-time greats, including players who were famous for raising their numbers, like James Worthy, whom Magic had once called a top 5 playoff performer in history (!).
This, of course, concerns only the comparisons to the series of players past their primes. Because other series (Kareem in '82, Kobe in '04, LeBron in both '07, '11) are on par anyway.

[MiseryCityTexas]

How was it Wilt's fault? Wilt played in a reduced role that focused more on defense and a lot less on offense and was clearly past his prime by the time he played on the Lakers. You should blame Jerry West and Elgin Baylor instead. They were notorious for joking in the finals back in the 60s and early 70s.

[Hey Yo]

When someone is so caught up in hate they blame people for losses they literally were not allowed to play the decisive moments of we move into straight up idiocy. All there is to it.

If you believe someone should take the sole blame for a loss....while not being allowed to play...you are stupid. There is no softer way to put it. Something in your head...is not as it should be. There is wrong...and there is stupid.

Giving someone individual blame for losing a close game they watched the last 5 minutes of...not being allowed to play....is just being an idiot.
:oldlol:

[AirFederer]

Wiki:

[I]Van Breda Kolff's success in college attracted the attention of the NBA. The Lakers hired him in 1967, and in his first season guided the team to the NBA Finals, where they lost to the Boston Celtics in six games. In his second campaign there, his team

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=AirFederer]Wiki:

[I]Van Breda Kolff's success in college attracted the attention of the NBA. The Lakers hired him in 1967, and in his first season guided the team to the NBA Finals, where they lost to the Boston Celtics in six games. In his second campaign there, his team

[LAZERUSS]

[QUOTE=AirFederer]Wiki:

[I]Van Breda Kolff's success in college attracted the attention of the NBA. The Lakers hired him in 1967, and in his first season guided the team to the NBA Finals, where they lost to the Boston Celtics in six games. In his second campaign there, his team

[LAZERUSS]

Continuing...

http://www.nba.com/2012/history/features/04/09/season-of-giants-bill-russell/index.html


Of all his contemporaries on those Celtics' teams, it is, perhaps surprisingly, Russell, who champions Chamberlain the most.

"I hear guys say that he couldn't have played in a different time, done the things that he did then today," Russell said. "That's bull(...). If Wilt were playing today, he would be even more dominant than he was then. I don't see a center out there now that could play against him.

"The reason people don't believe that is because Wilt's numbers were so big, they seemed so impossible that they almost don't seem real. So they try to diminish the era and those he played against. People can't comprehend numbers like that, things that he did every night in just about every game. So they try to find a way to dismiss them or devalue them and try to make them not real.

"You talk about a guy that averaged 50 points a game for the whole season. Now a guy averages 29 points or 30 points and he leads the league and everybody says he's the greatest scorer. Well, Wilt was 20 points a night better. How do you compare [with] that?

"When I played against Wilt I used to assess how I was gonna play. He knew that I guarded him different every game. I had five sets, five different ways that I played against him. The main agenda was never to stop him. The agenda was to make him less efficient, so that if he got 40 points, he had to take 40 shots to get it. He was always the first option. So if he's taking 40 shots, then none of the rest of the guys on his team could ever pick up a rhythm. So their shooting percentages would go down. Because when you're shooting once every five minutes, there's no way you can consistently be a good shooter. You can't maintain any kind of rhythm. So I would never try to stop him and he knew that.

<p>Your browser does not support iframes.</p>

"I had different ways of guarding him and the key was never trying to block his shots. For example, he had a fadeaway jump shot and he liked to take it from a particular spot left of the key. So I would try to move him one step to the left or one step to the right, so they he's shooting at a different angle. His angle changes without really looking like it's changing and so the shot would hit the rim and go off. That's making him less efficient. But if I were to block all those shots, he was also the smartest player I ever played against -- not even close -- and he would constantly be adjusting. That's why I had to have five different ways of guarding him.

"We had a stretch one time where he made like 10 in a row on bank shots. I said to myself, 'There's something wrong with this picture.' What he had done was get into his crouch and rub me off and throw my timing off. So he's getting his shot off with no obstruction. So I figured it out and the next time he went to rub me off, I turned my body so that when he tried to rub me off he'd miss. So we would go through this dance, back and forth, me and him, action and reaction. When he's counting on rubbing me off and there's no contact that throws him off. It's those things we were always doing to each other.

"On the night I heard he scored 100 points, I just said, 'I'm sure glad he wasn't playing against us.' Because he was always capable. It wasn't a complete surprise. It wasn't like he shocked everybody in the league by doing that. A lot of us always thought that it could happen."

The pair of giants did not speak for two decades after Russell criticized Chamberlain for taking himself out in the fourth quarter of Game 7 of the 1969 NBA Finals -- the last game of Russell's career -- with an ankle injury. Russell eventually apologized to Wilt privately and the two then remained close. Chamberlain died on Oct. 12, 1999.

"I was devastated," Russell said. "I went to the memorial service and one of his nephews said to me, 'Mr. Russell, this is something you might want to know. Yesterday I cleared off my uncle's desk. He had one of those things, a spike, where you keep notes or reminders. He had a stack of phone calls he was going to make that day, the day that he died, and you were second on the list of guys he was going to call that day.' That made me smile

[AirFederer]

20 years later :violin: :lol:

[LAZERUSS]

Speaking of quotes...thank to airfederer...


http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/fran_blinebury/07/15/legend-chamberlain/index.html




Russell has been universally acclaimed as the greatest team player in the history of American sports and Chamberlain painted as his taller, stat-piling foil, who constantly came up short in the end.

However, one man knows the inaccuracy of the portrait that's been painted.
"Nobody seems to appreciate what an incredible player Wilt was," Russell said at 1997 All-Star Game when the league named and honored its 50 greatest players. "He was the best player of all time because he dominated the floor like nobody else ever could. To be that big and that athletic was special."

In a sky full of stars, the Big Dipper will always stand out.




http://lakersblog.latimes.com/lakersblog/2011/05/kareem-abdul-jabbar-questions-scottie-pippens-argument-that-lebron-james-may-be-the-greatest-player-.html


So without further ado, here is Abdul-Jabbar's open letter to Pippen, which was recently obtained by The Times:

How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.


Rick Barry at one called Wilt a loser...

Of course, he got to experience "the loser" first hand...not once, but twice ('67 and '73)...

Changed his tune didn't he...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSTt_TxoFVo


If you could have ONE player to start a team with , who would you take?

"Without question...Wilt Chamberlain."


http://www.nba.com/history/wilt_appreciation.html

Wilt's teammate on that '69 team (and then the bystander on the Lakers '72 title team which, of course, Chamberlain carried)...


"He was the most unbelievable center to ever play the game in terms of domination and intimidation. There's no one that's ever played the game better than Wilt Chamberlain. This was a man for all ages."


http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188550


When the topic of all-time greatest player was once raised, none other than the legendary Larry Bird didn't hesitate.


"Open up the record book and it will be obvious who the greatest is," he said.

[Mr Feeny]

If I banned people for being idiots ISH would have 30 members tops.



So missing 9 in a 2 point game...means you individually lost it...but missing 4 doesnt?



Wilt put up 18/27/5 and 7 blocks on 88% shooting. But he was the worst of the bunch...





Id say...not being in the game....fairly good reason not to blame one for its loss. I...and 100% of people on this planet...with a hint of fairness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Ckph1tMNU


Injured....treated...kept playing...knee gives out again on the other end...sits for the first time....in the entire playoffs..gets it worked on...asks back in.....coach doesnt let him come back.

Team loses.

You give him full blame for the loss...you are stupid. "Stupid" is the word for such people.





You really use Wilt Chamberlain....as the example of someone with low standards?

The guy who had 60/30 games with 20 in the 4th and got blamed for losing? The guy who was at times the NBAs leading scorer...rebounder...assister...shot blocker...set still standing shooting percentage records...led what was at the time....the best team ever by record...AND....the second best ever....won 33 games in a row....2 titles...would have 2 finals MVPS had the award existed in the 60s....

And spent 40 years being hated on for it?

This is the guy with low standards?

At one point he led a team to a 47-3 start....won the title that year....and was getting called out for a lack of scoring.

Guy goes from 50 points...every night...to being utterly selfless passing out every time and shooting like 70% as his teammates carry the scoring load on the way to historic rates of winning.....gets hated on anyway. He was hated on for being selfish and losing.....and for being unselfish and winning.

This is the guy you treat like a posterboy for low standards?

You show me anyone else who can get negative articles written after a 65/30 game he loses...while his teammates combine to shoot like 35%....AND get negative articles written for having 8 points and 28 rebounds with 8 assists and 12 blocks in a WIN....because the perception is hes not scoring like hes supposed to and the team didnt win by as much as it should have.

One finals game in 67...he had 16 points....33 rebounds...10 assists...and 9 blocks....one of which was on the potential game winner from Nate thurmond...and he had to answer questions about only having the 16 points? A few days later....10 points...27 rebounds....8 assists...and 15 blocks.

15.

He blocked 15 shots.

People wrote about the 10 points.

That playoffs he had 7 triple doubles...2 of them quadruple doubles.

He had a triple double....followed by a quadruple double...in the finals...and nobody gave a shit. And nobody gives a shit now. Because its Wilt. Anyone else...is among the most celebrated feats in history. Wilt? Nobody even knows. He was one block from back to back quadruple doubles in a finals he WON....and the only takeaway is that he scored only 17ppg which helps drag down his finals averages for know nothings to laugh at.

Nobody in the history of team sports was ever held to a higher standard than Wilt Chamberlain and nobody ever will be.

Ok now I'm almost convinced you're brainless.

1- Talking about banning idiots. You've been called an idiot by serveral people on here and I agree with that assessment. The reason this site is in the state it is, is because they've got morons like you moderating. You'll go ahead and delete this post. I'd expect nothing else from you. But my 5 year old niece could do a better job moderating. That's the downfall of this board.

2- Averaging 41 ppg vs averaging 12 ppg and scoring a 40 point triple double vs missing 9 free throws in a 2 point loss is not even remotely comparable.
Hyperbole is just that. But you mentioning or even attempting to imply that west gets anywhere near as much blame for missing 4 free throws shows that you're either stupid or have no clue what you're talking about.

One guy gets a 42 point triple double in the decisive game. The other misses 9 free throws. The team loses by 2. Idiot mod here says the latter isn't to blame.

3- Missing 9 free throws when you're the only one on the team hyped as a top 10 player all time is horrific. Missing more than quadruple the final margin in a 2 point game 7 loss and averaging only 12 foe the series makes you the worst of the bunch, yes.

If you're too stupid to comprehend this, I'll dumb it down for you.

4- We talk about higher standards set for lebron in playoffs and finals as evidenced by Wilt fanboy here saying lebron "quit" in a 27, 19, 10 elimination game and Wilt being excused for a 12 ppg series average and 9 missed ft in game 7.

Dumb dumb here reads that and brings up Wilt's regular season stats.
Feks sake stupidity has no bounds. If you're too thick to comprehend what I'm saying, just tell me.
I'll slow down and dumb it down for you.

The state of this mod. A laughing stock of the forum being a mod. If you want to discuss basketball like an adult, let's do that. If you're about to sit there labelling everyone idiots without making a single coherent argument, don't bother. You're not worth wasting my time responding.

[Kblaze8855]

I called you an idiot for several reasons....and im gonna have to stand by it as I see you were serious.

If missing more FTs than the margin of victory makes one responsible for a loss.....it doesnt matter what else you did. Be it 42/14/12....or 18/27/7 blocks. If missing more FTs than it would take to win...means youre responsible....it just does. Now...dont take that to mean it does. It doesnt. That would be foolish to say. Which I suppose is why you said it.

None of which covers attempting to give sole blame for a loss to someone watching the last 5 minutes. Wilt had barely more to do with who won down the stretch than you did. But by all means...offer him 100% of the blame for losing a game he was watching against his will. That isnt something idiots do.






Far as me deleting your posts....you really must think you matter. You must be top notch....that id read your stinging assessment and need to delete it to save face. You think I need to duck...you?

Like im circling our games on the schedule and about to get my sick voice going and call coach to tell him I cant suit up? Because of you?

Im only vaguely aware of your existence. I didnt even know you hated Wilt till now. Apparently you and Laz have some whole...thing....going on. Which is...cute. Nothing like a little e-rivalry to get the juices flowing I guess..if youre the type for it. But im not that aware of you really.


Do we have some history I forgot? Some reason you would assume id just delete what you have to say out of frustration or....fear..or...whatever it is you think your inconsequential criticisms might have brought about?

I will no sell your haymakers and walk around like the Ultimate Warrior on coke....

https://fat.gfycat.com/ThinSerpentineGrayfox.gif

...before I delete your posts.

Nobody is concerned about you or your opinions.

[warriorfan]

https://s4.postimg.io/657tbnftp/niiiiiiice.png




https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/f9/2b/3e/f92b3ee9073b3e2418071e7759dd437b.jpg

[Mr Feeny]

I called you an idiot for several reasons....and im gonna have to stand by it as I see you were serious.

If missing more FTs than the margin of victory makes one responsible for a loss.....it doesnt matter what else you did. Be it 42/14/12....or 18/27/7 blocks. If missing more FTs than it would take to win...means youre responsible....it just does. Now...dont take that to mean it does. It doesnt. That would be foolish to say. Which I suppose is why you said it.

None of which covers attempting to give sole blame for a loss to someone watching the last 5 minutes. Wilt had barely more to do with who won down the stretch than you did. But by all means...offer him 100% of the blame for losing a game he was watching against his will. That isnt something idiots do.






Far as me deleting your posts....you really must think you matter. You must be top notch....that id read your stinging assessment and need to delete it to save face. You think I need to duck...you?

Like im circling our games on the schedule and about to get my sick voice going and call coach to tell him I cant suit up? Because of you?

Im only vaguely aware of your existence. I didnt even know you hated Wilt till now. Apparently you and Laz have some whole...thing....going on. Which is...cute. Nothing like a little e-rivalry to get the juices flowing I guess..if youre the type for it. But im not that aware of you really.


Do we have some history I forgot? Some reason you would assume id just delete what you have to say out of frustration or....fear..or...whatever it is you think your inconsequential criticisms might have brought about?

I will no sell your haymakers and walk around like the Ultimate Warrior on coke....

https://fat.gfycat.com/ThinSerpentineGrayfox.gif

...before I delete your posts.

Nobody is concerned about you or your opinions.


Says the guy who just wrote a page-long disquisition about me :oldlol:
I'm not saying I'm anything special. I'm saying there have already been posters who called you out on being a moron who will delete posts whenever anyone tells it like it is and calls you an idiot.
I most certainly don't care what you think and neither do the vast majority of this forum.

It takes a special kind of idiot to defend someone more than quadruple the spread in free throws while staying suspiously silent when another player (Lebron) is labelled a quitter for putting up 27,19,10 in an elimination game.

If you're an idiot, that's fine. Seeing what a train wreck this site has become with people like you appointed moderators makes sense. If we have morons for mods, we aren't going to have proper discourse.

You said that every poster on this site is an idiot with the exception of 30. I'd say you described yourself to a tee. You're a special kind of idiot. Carry on now.

[LAZERUSS]

Says the guy who just wrote a page-long disquisition about me :oldlol:
I'm not saying I'm anything special. I'm saying there have already been posters who called you out on being a moron who will delete posts whenever anyone tells it like it is and calls you an idiot.
I most certainly don't care what you think and neither do the vast majority of this forum.

If you're an idiot, that's fine. Seeing what a train wreck this site has It takes a special kind of idiot to defend someone more than quadruple the spread in free throws while staying suspiously silent when another player (Lebron) is labelled a quitter for putting up 27,19,10 in an elimination game.

become with people like you appointed moderators makes sense. If we have morons for mods, we aren't going to have proper discourse.

You said that every poster on this site is an idiot with the exception of 30. I'd say you described yourself to a tee. You're a special kind of idiot. Carry on now.

Lebron is a PROVEN QUITTER!


Not one, not two, not three, but MANY times in his career.

The entire world saw it on YouTube.

QUIT in a PIVOTAL game FIVE!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d-Mnfz6iB0

3-14 and 15 points, with ZERO effort.

Made a complete ASS out of himself.

Hiw own OWNER accused of him QUITTING, not only in that GAME FIVE, but games 2, 4, and 6. Then accused him of QUITTING in GAME SIX of the 2009 Orlando series.

Then yet ANOTHER famous YouTube QUIT job in the 2014 Finals...when he had to carried off the floor...with CRAMPS (and probably not LEG cramps either, if you know what I mean.)

Not only that, but unquestionably the WORST Finals by anyone near GOAT level, in the 2007 Finals...leading his team to a sweeping loss with a horrific .356 FG%.

And in the clinching game four ONE POINT loss... a truly LAUGHABLE performance of 10-30 from the floor and yes, 2-6 from the LINE. Any normal coach would have yanked his ass off the court in the first quarter.

Furthermore, he was one Ray Allen shot, and one Kyrie Irving shot, away from "1-7!"

#3 ...

Yeah right...

[tpols]

Wilt was what? .. like a couple possessions away from being better than 2/6 .. ? and that was with no team hopping in the middle of his prime. Wilt did his battle with dynasties his whole prime long.. and didnt elect to jump ship until he was 32 years old. Lebron otoh team hopped in a weak conference not once, but twice before wilt did, to get away from the dynasties that were perpetually kicking his ass, and even then he was still two shots away from 1/7 even after stacking the deck early on.


so it's pretty clear to see that if Wilt had team hopped earlier, and also had had the luck of having every super close, 50/50 scenario going his way he would've been much better than 2/6 and likely better than 3/7 as well.. just imagine if prime wilt jumped aboard the Celtics train in the early 60s and shifted russel to PF or something.. thats the type of attitude current superstars of today have.

[Kblaze8855]

So what you are telling me is that I...am "suspiciously silent" in defense of Lebron....am apparently a heavy handed mod who deletes everything...yet the board has declined due to poor or I suppose...not enough...moderation?

Kinda feels like the last 2 of those are at odds. On the first ill just say...Im amused. I say the exact same things about Lebron and Wilt every time I feel a reason...and am told I love or hate them depending on nothing but how emotional the person im talking to happens to be.

You seem quite emotional in the positive in regards to Lebron. So much so...my not having mentioned him at all...somehow bugs you. Bugs you so much you miss the obvious point that someone cant be responsible for a loss while....not playing...and that if missed FTs means you lost the game....everyone who missed more than 2 would be responsible. Both fairly indisputable....but you talk to me about Lebron...

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, according to Feeble...Wilt missing FTs is the reason why Wilt's TEAM lost that game seven.

Then, using the same logic, MJ "choked" big-time in his 63 point playoff performance against the Celtics. He missed two FTs in regulation. Had he made just one, the Bulls would have won that game.

Damn "choker" shot 18-20 from the line. Had he gone 19-20...they would have won.

Of course, Lebron going 10-30 from the floor in a clinching (and sweeping) Finals game one point loss, ... as well as 2-6 from the LINE...is completely excusable.

Yep. Why? Because it was Lebron.

[ClipperRevival]

Wilt was what? .. like a couple possessions away from being better than 2/6 .. ? and that was with no team hopping in the middle of his prime. Wilt did his battle with dynasties his whole prime long.. and didnt elect to jump ship until he was 32 years old. Lebron otoh team hopped in a weak conference not once, but twice before wilt did, to get away from the dynasties that were perpetually kicking his ass, and even then he was still two shots away from 1/7 even after stacking the deck early on.


so it's pretty clear to see that if Wilt had team hopped earlier, and also had had the luck of having every super close, 50/50 scenario going his way he would've been much better than 2/6 and likely better than 3/7 as well.. just imagine if prime wilt jumped aboard the Celtics train in the early 60s and shifted russel to PF or something.. thats the type of attitude current superstars of today have.

He went from a historically great team (76ers) to the Lakers after his 1967-68 season. Most thought that this Lakers team would be the next great dynasty with Wilt, West and Baylor. And that is exactly why 1969 is held so much against Wilt. Because his team was supposed to destroy the old and aging Celtics.

[ClipperRevival]

Why do people make stupid topics they clearly know are invalid then make it clear they know....by mentioning the obvious responses to come as if that invalidates them?

When the coach wont play you the last 5 minutes of game 7 out of spite...and you lose...and he immediately becomes the most hated man in town and has to resign like a week later?

The idea that you single handily lost the game while not being allowed to play is ****ing idiotic. It just is. Talking about missing more FTs than the final margin. It was a 2 point game. Several people missed 2 FTs or more. Hell Jerry West missed 4....doesnt mean he makes all 4 and they win the title. Basketball does not work that way.

An 8-10 point game for Lakers wilt was hardly unusual....or something that means they lose. he had 4 points when they beat the Celtics in game 2. He had 9 when they beat the Celtics end of the regular season. He had 13 in another finals win that year. 15 in another(including the game winner). He didnt lead by scoring on the lakers...he played D and rebounded....started the break. He could score...but didnt try. He had 60 and 66 like a week apart when SI ran a story claiming he couldnt score anymore. He just did it to prove a point...but he knew it wasnt his role anymore.

Using his lack of scoring to hate when its probably the most unselfish display of a scorer doing whats best for the team..ever....is just lame. Who..in history...can drop 60 at will...and takes 8 shots a game while watching his teammates thrive? Who does that? Wilt had his issues....but he did what his coach told him to do....and what he was asked to do...was shut down the paint and start the break. Not score. And you know it.

People KNOW IT...and talk about averages....as if he scored 6-10 points out of ineptitude. The least minutes per game he EVER averaged in the playoffs? 46.2. He would play entire playoff runs...and never come out of a game. He played 5 entire playoffs without rest. He played over 47 minutes a game in the playoffs at 36. He took 7 shots a game.

Have you any idea how many looks you must pass up for the sake of your teammates...to take 7 shots a game in 47 minutes a night? He wasnt trying to score as a Laker. You all know it. Hating on a lack of it...when he made no effort to do it?

Are you dudes just dense? Nobody is dense enough to think someone who takes 6 shots in 54 minutes was just....failing to score. He played the role he was asked....a role that won him his second ring....and helped his team win 33 games in a row. Using finals averages against someone who made most of them when he was intentionally limiting his scoring for the greater good is just being a douchebag.

Its almost as bad as giving someone single handed blame for losing a game his coach refused to put him back into....

Be for real. At least a little.

So that makes Wilt what? A role player come playoff time? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Was he a GOAT tier player or just a role player? If it's the former, you impose your will on the game when it matters. All these excuses are just lame. Excuses are for losers. Anyone can make a million excuses when you lose. Laz here is the master at that. The fact is, the guy lacked something inside, that killer instinct to want to get it. It's that simple. With his talents, he should've been taking names come playoff time. But he's had many instances where his character showed when it mattered most.

Give Wilt MJ's or Russell's mentality, do you disagree that he would've been even greater given his natural physical advantages over every single player he ever faced on the bball court?

[LAZERUSS]

So that makes Wilt what? A role player come playoff time? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Was he a GOAT tier player or just a role player? If it's the former, you impose your will on the game when it matters. All these excuses are just lame. Excuses are for losers. Anyone can make a million excuses when you lose. Laz here is the master at that. The fact is, the guy lacked something inside, that killer instinct to want to get it. It's that simple. With his talents, he should've been taking names come playoff time. But he's had many instances where his character showed when it mattered most.

Give Wilt MJ's or Russell's mentality, do you disagree that he would've been even greater given his natural physical advantages over every single player he ever faced on the bball court?


What was RUSSELL, then? He certainly wasn't a SCORER, was he? ESPECIALLY against WILt...whom he seldom scored against, nor could even hit 40% against. He had series against Chamberlain of scoring 11 ppg on a .386 FG% (and WON a ring....even with Wilt outscoring him 29 ppg on a .517 FG%)...and 10 ppg on a .358 FG% (and got BLOWN OUT by Wilt ...who "only" averaged 22 pgg on a .556.)

Not to mention the '69 Finals, when he averaged 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG% (and WON a ring.)

The REALITY was, Chamberlain was outscoring, outrebounding, and outshooting Russell in EVERY ONE of their EIGHT post-season H2H's, and in most, by HUGE margins.

Yep...ROLE PLAYER Russell and his 11 rings.

Thanks for playing...

[ClipperRevival]

What was RUSSELL, then? He certainly wasn't a SCORER, was he? ESPECIALLY against WILt...whom he seldom scored against, nor could even hit 40% against. He had series against Chamberlain of scoring 11 ppg on a .386 FG% (and WON a ring....even with Wilt outscoring him 29 ppg on a .517 FG%)...and 10 ppg on a .358 FG% (and got BLOWN OUT by Wilt ...who "only" averaged 22 pgg on a .556.)

Not to mention the '69 Finals, when he averaged 9.0 ppg on a .397 FG% (and WON a ring.)

The REALITY was, Chamberlain was outscoring, outrebounding, and outshooting Russell in EVERY ONE of their EIGHT post-season H2H's, and in most, by HUGE margins.

Yep...ROLE PLAYER Russell and his 11 rings.

Thanks for playing...

Using ppg and FG% to judge Russell is like using FT pct to judge Shaq or number of dunks for CP3. No one said Russell was a great scorer, he was decent but not great. He focused on D, rebounding and outlet passing. And that's what helped his teams WIN. On the flipside, Wilt's supposed greatest asset was his scoring. Why such big dips in the playoffs? Can't duplicate the same dominance when it mattered most? Why not? Oh, he's a role player now? How convenient.

Dude lacked heart. Plain and simple. And I can't respect guys who didn't bring it.

[tpols]

He went from a historically great team (76ers) to the Lakers after his 1967-68 season. Most thought that this Lakers team would be the next great dynasty with Wilt, West and Baylor. And that is exactly why 1969 is held so much against Wilt. Because his team was supposed to destroy the old and aging Celtics.

yea i get that , but Wilt was 32 years old when he jumped ship.. Lebron was 26 years old. And while they both mightve choked at the start, Lebron's 2011 performance at peak age will always be considered worse.

[LAZERUSS]

Using ppg and FG% to judge Russell is like using FT pct to judge Shaq or number of dunks for CP3. No one said Russell was a great scorer, he was decent but not great. He focused on D, rebounding and outlet passing. And that's what helped his teams WIN. On the flipside, Wilt's supposed greatest asset was his scoring. Why such big dips in the playoffs? Can't duplicate the same dominance when it mattered most? Why not? Oh, he's a role player now? How convenient.

Dude lacked heart. Plain and simple. And I can't respect guys who didn't bring it.

You're an IDIOT.

Wilt's scoring "decline" came not because he couldn't score...but because that is EXACTLY what his COACH'S asked of him.

And, furthermore, he was every bit as good, if not greater, at defense, rebounding, outlet passing (see the '72 Lakers), and anything else Russell did.

It always fascinates me when these two are brought up. Russell is praised for doing LESS, to FAR LESS...and Wilt is ripped for doing MORE, to FAR MORE.

It has been pointed out that Wilt did whatever was asked of him.

Do you honestly think Shaq would have played the HIGH POST had Phil asked him to?

Or that MJ would have become almost exclusively a play-maker had Jackson asked him to?

Yet, Wilt did EXACTLY that...even when he KNEW it was wrong (see the '69 season and Finals.)

BTW, Chamberlain was a mere NINE points away, in four games seven's (and in all of which he either outplayed Russell, or wiped him out)...from FOUR rings (margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.) FURTHERMORE, and again, has been pointed out...he was on the BENCH in the last five minutes of a game seven two point loss.

Incidently, that coach resigned, basically in disgrace...and he never again coached an NBA team that went anywhere. Within a few years he was completely out the league.

Meanwhile, when Wilt had a GREAT coach, as in '72...they waltzed to a title, led by WILT's ROLE (and shutting down a PEAK Kareem in the '72 WCF's, and the crushing the Knicks and their five HOFers in the Finals.)

WHEN IT MATTERED MOST, Chamberlain was among the GOATs, if not THE GOAT. In his 23 "must win" games... 31.1 ppg (third all-time behind LB J's 32.6, and MJ's 31.3), 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-season NBA's that shot about .435 on average in that same span.)

Thanks for playing.

[ClipperRevival]

You're an IDIOT.

Wilt's scoring "decline" came not because he couldn't score...but because that is EXACTLY what his COACH'S asked of him.

And, furthermore, he was every bit as good, if not greater, at defense, rebounding, outlet passing (see the '72 Lakers), and anything else Russell did.

It always fascinates me when these two are brought up. Russell is praised for doing LESS, to FAR LESS...and Wilt is ripped for doing MORE, to FAR MORE.

It has been pointed out that Wilt did whatever was asked of him.

Do you honestly think Shaq would have played the HIGH POST had Phil asked him to?

Or that MJ would have become almost exclusively a play-maker had Jackson asked him to?

Yet, Wilt did EXACTLY that...even when he KNEW it was wrong (see the '69 season and Finals.)

BTW, Chamberlain was a mere NINE points away, in four games seven's (and in all of which he either outplayed Russell, or wiped him out)...from FOUR rings (margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.) FURTHERMORE, and again, has been pointed out...he was on the BENCH in the last five minutes of a game seven two point loss.

Incidently, that coach resigned, basically in disgrace...and he never again coached an NBA team that went anywhere. Within a few years he was completely out the league.

Meanwhile, when Wilt had a GREAT coach, as in '72...they waltzed to a title, led by WILT's ROLE (and shutting down a PEAK Kareem in the '72 WCF's, and the crushing the Knicks and their five HOFers in the Finals.)

WHEN IT MATTERED MOST, Chamberlain was among the GOATs, if not THE GOAT. In his 23 "must win" games... 31.1 ppg (third all-time behind LB J's 32.6, and MJ's 31.3), 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-season NBA's that shot about .435 on average in that same span.)

Thanks for playing.

So in simple terms: It's not Wilt's fault.

:oldlol: :facepalm :rolleyes:

I'm not going to get into this AGAIN. Have a good one buddy.

[Psileas]

Using ppg and FG% to judge Russell is like using FT pct to judge Shaq or number of dunks for CP3. No one said Russell was a great scorer, he was decent but not great. He focused on D, rebounding and outlet passing. And that's what helped his teams WIN. On the flipside, Wilt's supposed greatest asset was his scoring. Why such big dips in the playoffs? Can't duplicate the same dominance when it mattered most? Why not? Oh, he's a role player now? How convenient.

Dude lacked heart. Plain and simple. And I can't respect guys who didn't bring it.

How often do we have to repeat that, regarding playoff competition in comparison to regular season competition, Wilt's playoff drops were usually not big or even weren't even drops at all? Wilt's scoring went UP in multiple playoff series against the same opponents compared to what he averaged against them in the regular season. So, you may argue that there were certain elite opponents who managed to cut off Wilt's productivity, the same way it happens to pretty much any great scorer when he has to face opponents who are elite defensively. And this doesn't even take lower playoff pace into account. It has nothing to do with heart.

When Kareem, for whom it's now the ISH trend to rank at top 2, found himself in Wilt's position, having to face Thurmond+Wilt in shorter playoffs, guess what: Kareem's averages skydove themselves.

1971: 31.7 ppg in the r.s, 26.6 in the p.o
1972: 34.8 ppg in the r.s, 28.8 in the p.o
1973: 30.2 ppg in the r.s, 22.8 in the p.o
and let's not even get started with his FG%'s.

Where was "greater than Wilt" Kareem's "heart" back then?
So, if a young, super athletic Kareem couldn't come close to matching his r.s numbers each time he faced these 2 elite defenders, who's to tell he'd have done any better, had he had to face them for a full decade, be it Wilt+Thurmond or Russell+Thurmond?

[ClipperRevival]

How often do we have to repeat that, regarding playoff competition in comparison to regular season competition, Wilt's playoff drops were usually not big or even weren't even drops at all? Wilt's scoring went UP in multiple playoff series against the same opponents compared to what he averaged against them in the regular season. So, you may argue that there were certain elite opponents who managed to cut off Wilt's productivity, the same way it happens to pretty much any great scorer when he has to face opponents who are elite defensively. And this doesn't even take lower playoff pace into account. It has nothing to do with heart.

When Kareem, for whom it's now the ISH trend to rank at top 2, found himself in Wilt's position, having to face Thurmond+Wilt in shorter playoffs, guess what: Kareem's averages skydove themselves.

1971: 31.7 ppg in the r.s, 26.6 in the p.o
1972: 34.8 ppg in the r.s, 28.8 in the p.o
1973: 30.2 ppg in the r.s, 22.8 in the p.o
and let's not even get started with his FG%'s.

Where was "greater than Wilt" Kareem's "heart" back then?
So, if a young, super athletic Kareem couldn't come close to matching his r.s numbers each time he faced these 2 elite defenders, who's to tell he'd have done any better, had he had to face them for a full decade, be it Wilt+Thurmond or Russell+Thurmond?

Every great player faces other great players and teams in the playoffs. That's the nature of the beast.

[feyki]

Bill doubled Wilt for feeding teammates all the time ( beside of 67, 68? ) .

[AceManIII]

When did Laz start hating LeBron?

Wasn't he cheering for LeBron during the finals?? Also, cheered for LeBron during the early part of the year for being "underappreciated like Wilt"???

[Psileas]

Every great player faces other great players and teams in the playoffs. That's the nature of the beast.


Yes, but not all kinds of great teams are able to limit all types of great scorers. For example, the 60's perennial finalists Lakers rarely had a cat's chance in hell of limiting Wilt. Their main weapon was their perimeter scoring and perimeter defense. But such a matchup never happened in the playoffs.

[Lebron23]

Wilted under pressure.

[deathawaitu]

Another reason we can all admit Lebron and Wilt are similar

Lebron single handedly lost 2011 and 2007 by himself.

2007 bricking left and right

2011 being a mental midget

[HoopsNY]

If I banned people for being idiots ISH would have 30 members tops.



So missing 9 in a 2 point game...means you individually lost it...but missing 4 doesnt?



Wilt put up 18/27/5 and 7 blocks on 88% shooting. But he was the worst of the bunch...





Id say...not being in the game....fairly good reason not to blame one for its loss. I...and 100% of people on this planet...with a hint of fairness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Ckph1tMNU


Injured....treated...kept playing...knee gives out again on the other end...sits for the first time....in the entire playoffs..gets it worked on...asks back in.....coach doesnt let him come back.

Team loses.

You give him full blame for the loss...you are stupid. "Stupid" is the word for such people.





You really use Wilt Chamberlain....as the example of someone with low standards?

The guy who had 60/30 games with 20 in the 4th and got blamed for losing? The guy who was at times the NBAs leading scorer...rebounder...assister...shot blocker...set still standing shooting percentage records...led what was at the time....the best team ever by record...AND....the second best ever....won 33 games in a row....2 titles...would have 2 finals MVPS had the award existed in the 60s....

And spent 40 years being hated on for it?

This is the guy with low standards?

At one point he led a team to a 47-3 start....won the title that year....and was getting called out for a lack of scoring.

Guy goes from 50 points...every night...to being utterly selfless passing out every time and shooting like 70% as his teammates carry the scoring load on the way to historic rates of winning.....gets hated on anyway. He was hated on for being selfish and losing.....and for being unselfish and winning.

This is the guy you treat like a posterboy for low standards?

You show me anyone else who can get negative articles written after a 65/30 game he loses...while his teammates combine to shoot like 35%....AND get negative articles written for having 8 points and 28 rebounds with 8 assists and 12 blocks in a WIN....because the perception is hes not scoring like hes supposed to and the team didnt win by as much as it should have.

One finals game in 67...he had 16 points....33 rebounds...10 assists...and 9 blocks....one of which was on the potential game winner from Nate thurmond...and he had to answer questions about only having the 16 points? A few days later....10 points...27 rebounds....8 assists...and 15 blocks.

15.

He blocked 15 shots.

People wrote about the 10 points.

That playoffs he had 7 triple doubles...2 of them quadruple doubles.

He had a triple double....followed by a quadruple double...in the finals...and nobody gave a shit. And nobody gives a shit now. Because its Wilt. Anyone else...is among the most celebrated feats in history. Wilt? Nobody even knows. He was one block from back to back quadruple doubles in a finals he WON....and the only takeaway is that he scored only 17ppg which helps drag down his finals averages for know nothings to laugh at.

Nobody in the history of team sports was ever held to a higher standard than Wilt Chamberlain and nobody ever will be.

Where do you see these statistics? I thought blocks weren't recorded back then.