"Winning As The Main Man" Feels Like An Obsolete Idea Now

[CTbasketball92]

It feels like the only two or 3 people were overwhelmingly the reason a team won a chip recently have been DWade ('06) LeBron (2013, 2016* w. Kyrie, but he did a huge amount of work), Dirk ('11) and arguably Kobe. Everyone else in recent history has won because they had an incredible team. The '08 celtics, the 2014 Spurs, the 2015 Warriors ... that's pretty much it. With superteams being a thing now, you need to have two superstars in order to give yourself a chance. Either that or an incredibly efficient and fluid offensive system with multiple stars and a great coach.


With that in mind, i think it's dumb to say you can't win a chip with James Harden, Westbrook or Prime Melo as your "main man." You can put any of those players on the Warriors or Spurs and you've got a good chance at winning a championship most other times in history. Put Westbrook on the Warriors there's a good chance they win this year. Same with the spurs. You can win with James Harden as your best man if you give him Boogie and great role players. You can win with Westbrook if KD shoots better than he did this past year's playoffs. You can win with Prime Melo if you give him a better second option than JR Smith or past his prime AI.

I could look into the advanced stats of this, but that just feels like a bit too much. Just felt this should be said.

[ISHGoat]

It's fully possible to win with prime Melo or Harden as the #1 option. Surround them with a cast like the 09-10 lakers who can defend and putback bricks.

[scuzzy]

It's fully possible to win with prime Melo or Harden as the #1 option. Surround them with a cast like the 09-10 lakers who can defend and putback bricks.:lol. True True

[warriorfan]

It's fully possible to win with prime Melo or Harden as the #1 option. Surround them with a cast like the 09-10 lakers who can defend and putback bricks.
This poster is extremely shook

[JT123]

It's fully possible to win with prime Melo or Harden as the #1 option. Surround them with a cast like the 09-10 lakers who can defend and putback bricks.
:lol :roll: :oldlol:

[InsanityKills]

It's fully possible to win with prime Melo or Harden as the #1 option. Surround them with a cast like the 09-10 lakers who can defend and putback bricks.
:roll: :roll:

[BarberSchool]

Since the advent of Zone defense being made legal, the league has favored iso play less and less every season.

It is a motion & spacing league now. Iso ball doesn't win anymore, like it did when there was illegal defense. It's an outdated model that has seen it's time in the pros mostly evaporate. Look at the last champions, and look at their spacing, ball movement, look at their style and efficiency.

Low efficiency iso ball died with the Kobe/Iverson/Francis/Marbury era.

As defenses, mainly those crafted by Tom Thibodeaux, and the many offshoots since, do a very good job of limiting dominant iso wing players. And even the Miami Strong side overload, being a more simple scheme against dominant iso ball, was played like a puppet by Dallas shooting efficiency and ball movement and unselfishness.

It's a new league. "the man" aka a dominant wing iso player will always be a part of pro ball, but you cant win chips that way anymore, unless you're as efficient as jordan, which would be hard now with zones' expertise, and with the superior ball movement and 3pt efficiency seen by recent champs.

[Cone]

It's fully possible to win with prime Melo or Harden as the #1 option. Surround them with a cast like the 09-10 lakers who can defend and putback bricks.

http://dontpaniconline.com/media/magazine/body/2014-07-04/images/tumblr_m8nkvuJgAB1qzbbbgo1_400.gif

[CTbasketball92]

Since the advent of Zone defense being made legal, the league has favored iso play less and less every season.

It is a motion & spacing league now. Iso ball doesn't win anymore, like it did when there was illegal defense. It's an outdated model that has seen it's time in the pros mostly evaporate. Look at the last champions, and look at their spacing, ball movement, look at their style and efficiency.

Low efficiency iso ball died with the Kobe/Iverson/Francis/Marbury era.

As defenses, mainly those crafted by Tom Thibodeaux, and the many offshoots since, do a very good job of limiting dominant iso wing players. And even the Miami Strong side overload, being a more simple scheme against dominant iso ball, was played like a puppet by Dallas shooting efficiency and ball movement and unselfishness.

It's a new league. "the man" aka a dominant wing iso player will always be a part of pro ball, but you cant win chips that way anymore, unless you're as efficient as jordan, which would be hard now with zones' expertise, and with the superior ball movement and 3pt efficiency seen by recent champs.

I agree with you, but I still think one of a team's two best players should probably have elite iso-scoring skills, and I think certain players get a biiiit too much credit for being cogs in a great system, whereas players like Westbrook and Harden -- both of whom generally work with fewer resources than GSW or SA -- you get labeled a chucker or as a loser. I guess what im saying is -- for my tertiary point -- I don't think those players are without a place in a well-rounded offense.

[GimmeThat]

Just as much as players who later on become a coach. or coaches getting fired after a brief stint

i.e. to say basketball players doesn't have their own philosophy/approach to how games can/ought to be win, would be an absolute lie.


you may say it comes down to after all the plays been drawn and ran out, what do players look for then in a team.

or what's the purpose of each individual beyond winning. both on, and off the court.

[Prometheus]

Just as much as players who later on become a coach. or coaches getting fired after a brief stint

i.e. to say basketball players doesn't have their own philosophy/approach to how games can/ought to be win, would be an absolute lie.


you may say it comes down to after all the plays been drawn and ran out, what do players look for then in a team.

or what's the purpose of each individual beyond winning. both on, and off the court.

... huh?

[SouBeachTalents]

... huh?

:roll: I don't think that dude speaks English

[GimmeThat]

It's fully possible to win with prime Melo or Harden as the #1 option. Surround them with a cast like the 09-10 lakers who can defend and putback bricks.

what % of your salary (thankfully the NBA is a soft-cap system) are you willing to devote to one position only in order to contend for a championship.

more importantly then, how efficient is that money spent on the position.

[GimmeThat]

... huh?

there are some people in here who are sucking on their bosses d*ck.
i don't know which guy you are.

[jstern]

It's fully possible to win with prime Melo or Harden as the #1 option. Surround them with a cast like the 09-10 lakers who can defend and putback bricks.
This is a classic example of it's funny because it's true.

[masonanddixon]

What about Duncan in 02-03?

Dirk in 10-11 is the epitome of one man winning a ring the hardest, most genuine, and most respectable way possible.

[Mr Feeny]

It's fully possible to win with prime Melo or Harden as the #1 option. Surround them with a cast like the 09-10 lakers who can defend and putback bricks.

:lebronamazed:

[Mr Feeny]

What about Duncan in 02-03?

Dirk in 10-11 is the epitome of one man winning a ring the hardest, most genuine, and most respectable way possible.

When he swept Kobe and sent him home with a 36 point loss? :lebronamazed:

[masonanddixon]

When he swept Kobe and sent him home with a 36 point loss? :lebronamazed:

Yes the same postseason in which lebron scored 6 points in a Finals game and tallied a grand total of eight 4th quarter points in six games...

[Mr Feeny]

Yes the same postseason in which lebron scored 6 points in a Finals game and tallied a grand total of eight 4th quarter points in six games...

In other words lebron lost in 6 competitive games against the man that swept Kobe and beat him by 36? :lebronamazed:

[masonanddixon]

In other words lebron lost in 6 competitive games against the man that swept Kobe and beat him by 36? :lebronamazed:

Yes Dirk wrecked both of them...
That game 6 blowout on the road was the sweetest justice ever after 05-06.

[Mr Feeny]

Yes Dirk wrecked both of them...
That game 6 blowout on the road was the sweetest justice ever after 05-06.

Yet they lost 2 games against a team that was learning to gel while creaming and sweeping Kobe with a 36 point cherry to finish him off:bowdown:

[masonanddixon]

Yet they lost 2 games against a team that was learning to gel while creaming and sweeping Kobe with a 36 point cherry to finish him off:bowdown:

'Learning to gel', meanwhile they absolutely wrecked a Celtics squad they needed 7 games to barely beat the next postseason and destroyed the team with the league's best record.

Everyone knows 10-11 was the best variant of the Heat; they just ran into Dirk and there was no stopping the man.

[Mr Feeny]

'Learning to gel', meanwhile they absolutely wrecked a Celtics squad they needed 7 games to barely beat the next postseason and destroyed the team with the league's best record.

Everyone knows 10-11 was the best variant of the Heat; they just ran into Dirk and there was no stopping the man.

Absolutely not:oldlol:
A first year team needs time to gel. The fact that they played well in an earlier round is amazing but doesn't mean they weren't gelling.
6 games against the team that swept the defending champions is alright. I think the heat were content with that and then 2 titles over the 2 seasons.

[masonanddixon]

Absolutely not:oldlol:
A first year team needs time to gel. The fact that they played well in an earlier round is amazing but doesn't mean they weren't gelling.
6 games against the team that swept the defending champions is alright. I think the heat were content with that and then 2 titles over the 2 seasons.

Miami sure looked unstoppable after Game 1 and when they were up 15 with 5 minutes to go in Game 2...

And Miami had an insane regular season run after the all star break.

Whereas they barely beat the mediocre Pacers and Celtics (who they wrecked just the previous season) and faced an inexperienced Thunder squad in the Finals.

You can make all the excuses you want but the truth is 2010-2011 was by far the best version of Miami, and having all the role players in the world doesn't compensate for the fact wade was operating at about 20% of capacity from 2012 onwards.

[Mr Feeny]

Miami sure looked unstoppable after Game 1 and when they were up 15 with 5 minutes to go in Game 2...

And Miami had an insane regular season run after the all star break.

Whereas they barely beat the mediocre Pacers and Celtics (who they wrecked just the previous season) and faced an inexperienced Thunder squad in the Finals.

You can make all the excuses you want but the truth is 2010-2011 was by far the best version of Miami, and having all the role players in the world doesn't compensate for the fact wade was operating at about 20% of capacity from 2012 onwards.

And yet they still were in their first team and gelling. It's incredible how they reached the finals right off the bat and took 2 games from the team that embarassed and swept Kobe! :lebronamazed:

2 years later, 2 more titles after they gelled :banana:

[masonanddixon]

And yet they still were in their first team and gelling. It's incredible how they reached the finals right off the bat and took 2 games from the team that embarassed and swept Kobe! :lebronamazed:

2 years later, 2 more titles after they gelled :banana:

lol they didn't gel; the competition just became weaker.

[Mr Feeny]

lol they didn't gel; the competition just became weaker.

The competition wasn't weaker. They just had time to gel:confusedshrug:

[masonanddixon]

The competition wasn't weaker. They just had time to gel:confusedshrug:

Gel how? Were they giving it to each other in the ass more regularly or some shit?

[Mr Feeny]

Gel how? Were they giving it to each other in the ass more regularly or some shit?

Cohesion. Once they figured out how to play with each other they won 2 the next 2 titles as lebron swept all 4 regular and finals mvps the following two years.

[BarberSchool]

I agree with you, but I still think one of a team's two best players should probably have elite iso-scoring skills, and I think certain players get a biiiit too much credit for being cogs in a great system, whereas players like Westbrook and Harden -- both of whom generally work with fewer resources than GSW or SA -- you get labeled a chucker or as a loser. I guess what im saying is -- for my tertiary point -- I don't think those players are without a place in a well-rounded offense.Yeah, elite iso-scoring is still very effective, when the player of system is able to use it efficiently, with ball/player movement, creating optimal situations for the iso wing to have high efficiency.

For instance, Dallas did this incredibly well during the carlisle era, with old/decrepit formerly-elite wing scorers, playing against weak side closeout defense, after the ball is swung from Dirk getting doubled. Richard jefferson even showed tiny glimpses of doing this during the finals for cleveland.

[SpecialQue]

It doesn't exist anymore. The superteam era effectively killed it.

[Smoke117]

It's fully possible to win with prime Melo or Harden as the #1 option. Surround them with a cast like the 09-10 lakers who can defend and putback bricks.

True

[pauk]

"Winning as the main man" = Being the best player during that championship run, the most impactful player in your team, the guy who had the biggest accountability for the success....

Its as simple as that... and its very simple to see who that main man was or wasnt... You mentioned Lebron there, the reality is he is the definition of what "main man" is, he was that extremly clearly in all of his 3 championship runs... infact he was the "main man" every single season & 99.99% of the time the best performer in his team every single game of his career... not only that but he was the "main man" of the entire NBA (most talented player in the NBA) since arguably 2006....

[Jasper]

OP has a point , but the team built around an individual has to be well built.

Most teams are , but leadership is the key.... (Even though Kobe never did)

Most teams in the playoffs that go deep , have lots of weapons and that is the key to a chip.

Example - Love played much as a role player , shooting important role points and boards then a legit 3rd option as Warriors Green plays.

Melo and HArden will NEVER get a chip , because they are 100% ball hogs that slow the game up significantly (.)

[CTbasketball92]

"Winning as the main man" = Being the best player during that championship run, the most impactful player in your team, the guy who had the biggest accountability for the success....

Its as simple as that... and its very simple to see who that main man was or wasnt... You mentioned Lebron there, the reality is he is the definition of what "main man" is, he was that extremly clearly in all of his 3 championship runs... infact he was the "main man" every single season & 99.99% of the time the best performer in his team every single game of his career... not only that but he was the "main man" of the entire NBA (most talented player in the NBA) since arguably 2006....

I don't disagree, more of what my point is that people saying (insert perennial All Star) can never take a team to a championship -- aka, they can't be built around. People still say that about Kyrie Irving, but the reality is, the cavaliers did build around him (and lebron) and they did win a championship (with Irving having a very high usage rate), so that argument should be done now. For a lot of people. People say the same things about James Harden, Paul George and Melo, but I think it's pretty obvious that those guys could've been the best players or close enough to be considered 1B scoring options on the championship Spurs and GSW and Celtics teams (sans Paul Pierce, Curry).
My point is that there are really only two players in the entire league (maybe 3, we'll see with Westbrook) that can lead a team of average players to 50+ wins by themselves (lebron and durant), so unless you have those players, you're not going anywhere without a legit superstar next to you or a group of consummate role players. With that in mind, saying you can build a team around a James Harden, Melo or Kyrie is silly, because you will usually need player of their caliber to be your second best player --- so, basically, they are players you can and should build around. You just need I have the other aforementioned pieces.

[CTbasketball92]

OP has a point , but the team built around an individual has to be well built.

Most teams are , but leadership is the key.... (Even though Kobe never did)

Most teams in the playoffs that go deep , have lots of weapons and that is the key to a chip.

Example - Love played much as a role player , shooting important role points and boards then a legit 3rd option as Warriors Green plays.

Melo and HArden will NEVER get a chip , because they are 100% ball hogs that slow the game up significantly (.)

More of what my point is that they CAN win a chip in a leading role (averaging 22-28 ppg) if they're on a team that's actually well-rounded to make up for whatever flaws they have. No player besides lebron and maybe Kobe has had to play elite defense, be a great facilitator and scorer to win their chips. All curry did was score. All kawhi really did was play defense and score adequately. Paul Pierce/Ray Allen/Kevin Garnett only had to play their roles (scoring/shooting/kg defense). Insert harden/Melo in any of those three Celtics slots and they still have a great chance at winning, which means you can technically build a championship team around them, which means it shouldn't be a bad thing to get compared to Melo. Unfortunately, melo's best second options were a past-prime Allen Iverson and JR Smith, who can't handle the ball.