What a career!!.. But Lebron must do it all AGAIN to match MJ's playoff resume

[3ball]

.
Lebron has half the FMVP's and half the rings - he needs to redo his entire career AGAIN to match Jordan's playoff accomplishments.

What a time!!!


http://cos.h-cdn.co/assets/15/29/1437250082-the-carleton.gif

[Chadwin]

Yep. Curry losing was great for the top 1 family. The ship had already sailed on Lebron becoming the GOAT and it just did on Curry.

[kamil]

Water is wet.

[sportjames23]

https://media.riffsy.com/images/54451401d52c0dd2fe9ee5752857d53c/raw

[Knoe Itawl]

Jordan is my favorite player of all time. And I think you've provided some decent insight at times.

However, please f*ck off. No, Lebron isn't better than Jordan. However, he's a hell of a player and I think he's earned top 5 status. You've posted a lot of vitriol about him, undoubtedly because you don't like him being compared to MJ but he achieved one of the greatest feats in NBA history last night and attempting to detract from it just makes you look as stupid as rabid Kobe fans and other assorted loons.

[NBAGOAT]

3ball's posts have greatly decreased in quality now. It should say something that Lebron winning a ring makes half of his material wrong now :oldlol:. The shit about Lebron decreasing his teammate's stats now for example is laughable because Kyrie has only gotten better since Lebron arrived and scored 27ppg in the Finals.

[bigkingsfan]

Jordan has about half of Russel playoff resume.

[AirBonner]

This one ring was better than half of Jordan's rings combined. suck a dick op

[Trollsmasher]

1 for da land = 4 of MJ's expansion era rings

[Straight_Ballin]

Jordan is my favorite player of all time. And I think you've provided some decent insight at times.

However, please f*ck off. No, Lebron isn't better than Jordan. However, he's a hell of a player and I think he's earned top 5 status. You've posted a lot of vitriol about him, undoubtedly because you don't like him being compared to MJ but he achieved one of the greatest feats in NBA history last night and attempting to detract from it just makes you look as stupid as rabid Kobe fans and other assorted loons.

You're right he's not. No need to be salty.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan is my favorite player of all time. And I think you've provided some decent insight at times.

However, please f*ck off. No, Lebron isn't better than Jordan. However, he's a hell of a player and I think he's earned top 5 status. You've posted a lot of vitriol about him, undoubtedly because you don't like him being compared to MJ but he achieved one of the greatest feats in NBA history last night and attempting to detract from it just makes you look as stupid as rabid Kobe fans and other assorted loons.

This should be copied and pasted in every LeBron thread 3ball makes

[red1]

Jordan is my favorite player of all time. And I think you've provided some decent insight at times.

However, please f*ck off. No, Lebron isn't better than Jordan. However, he's a hell of a player and I think he's earned top 5 status. You've posted a lot of vitriol about him, undoubtedly because you don't like him being compared to MJ but he achieved one of the greatest feats in NBA history last night and attempting to detract from it just makes you look as stupid as rabid Kobe fans and other assorted loons.
:eek: just took a dump on OP

[Quickening]

1 for da land = 4 of MJ's expansion era rings

This. MJ 6 rings in the 90s after failing in the competitive era of the 80s... its like thinking wilt would average 50 ppg in today's era.

Different eras bro, MJ was 20 years ago, time to move on with your life.

[3ball]

It should say something that Lebron winning a ring makes half of his material wrong now :oldlol:.



It hasn't changed a thing - what is inaccurate or wrong in the post below?



In the playoffs and Finals, Jordan scored far more than Lebron on better efficiency (ts, fg, ortg), while only getting 1 less assist.

Would Lebron have the tiny assist edge if he was required to lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan did?... Obviously not - Lebron has many series where he wasn't the team's leading scorer (even an entire playoff run).. The reality is that NO all-time great led his team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by 15 ppg like Jordan (let that sink in).

Specifically, Jordan scored 5.5 more ppg with better efficiency, which is more valuable, requires more energy, and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge and 1.0 assist edge.. There's never been a #1 option that scored 5-6 more points on better efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.. :confusedshrug:

Btw, in addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, he also led his team in passing, just like Lebron - Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.. Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.


And not a single thing needs to be changed in the other threads, such as the thread titled Top 7 reasons MJ > Lebron in case CLE wins and media overrates Lebron (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=408349)

[NBAGOAT]

It hasn't changed a thing - what is inaccurate or wrong in the post below?



In the playoffs and Finals, Jordan scored far more than Lebron on better efficiency (ts, fg, ortg), while only getting 1 less assist.

But would Lebron have the tiny assist edge if he was required to lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan did?... Obviously not - Lebron has many series where he wasn't the team's leading scorer (even an entire playoff run).. The reality is that NO all-time great led his team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by 15 ppg like Jordan (let that sink in).

Specifically, Jordan scored 5.5 more ppg with better efficiency, which is more valuable, requires more energy, and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge and 1.0 assist edge.. There's never been a #1 option that scored 5-6 more points on better efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.. :confusedshrug:

Btw, in addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, he also led his team in passing, just like Lebron - Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.. Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.


And not a single thing needs to be changed in the other threads, such as the thread titled Top 7 reasons MJ > Lebron in case CLE wins and media overrates Lebron (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=408349)

yea I don't mean these types of posts highlight MJ's scoring dominance. I mean your older posts about Lebron hurting the scoring numbers of his teammates. Also the suboptimal style stuff can out the window too.

[AirBonner]

1 for da land = 4 of MJ's expansion era rings
Truth :cheers:

[3ball]

This. MJ 6 rings in the 90s after failing in the competitive era of the 80s... its like thinking wilt would average 50 ppg in today's era.


Look at the all-stars in 1998 - Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, Kidd, Shaq, Hill, Penny, Drexler.. That's the MODERN ERA - but Jordan's stats occurred in the unspaced phase of the modern era, which was a tougher time period than today's spaced phase of the modern era.

It's statistical fact that Lebron and Curry achieve their stats WITH teammates spacing the floor (their teams take 30 threes per game), while Jordan achieved his stats WITHOUT teammates spacing the floor (Bulls took 5 threes in 1991).

Obviously, Jordan's stats would explode in today's spacing.. Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31).

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism and better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.

[Quickening]

Look at the all-stars in 1998 - Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, Kidd, Shaq, Hill, Penny.. That's the MODERN ERA - but Jordan's stats occurred in the UNSPACED phase of the modern era, which was a tougher time period than today's SPACED phase of the modern era.

Specifically, Lebron and Curry's teams take 30 three-pointers per game, compared to 5 per game for the 1991 Bulls.. So it's statistical fact that Lebron and Curry achieve their stats WITH teammates spacing the floor, while Jordan achieved his stats WITHOUT teammates spacing the floor.

Obviously, Jordan's stats would explode in today's spacing.. Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31).

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism and better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.

Yes cool bro, how come MJs great stats didn't translate to wins in the 80s when their was actual competition?

Ill wait.

[bond10]

1 for da land = 4 of MJ's expansion era rings

Right....cause the Bulls had some championships before Jordan arrived...yep. Oh and the crazy obstacles Lebron had to face in the playoffs...oh my the RAPTORS !!!

:facepalm

[J Shuttlesworth]

3Ball, I've gotten you to say that you do wish LeBron and his family a happy/healthy life, but just don't want him to be compared to MJ.

Can you at least appreciate what he did in some way?
-Bringing a championship to Cleveland
-Coming back down 3-1 against a 73 win team
-Back to Back 40 pt games
-Winning Game 7 on the road in the finals

I mean... do you at least have some appreciation of what we just saw ignoring any comparisons to MJ?

[AirBonner]

Look at the all-stars in 1998 - Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, Kidd, Shaq, Hill, Penny, Drexler.. That's the MODERN ERA - but Jordan's stats occurred in the unspaced phase of the modern era, which was a tougher time period than today's spaced phase of the modern era.

Specifically, Lebron and Curry's teams take 30 three-pointers per game, compared to 5 per game for the 1991 Bulls.. So it's statistical fact that Lebron and Curry achieve their stats WITH teammates spacing the floor, while Jordan achieved his stats WITHOUT teammates spacing the floor.

Obviously, Jordan's stats would explode in today's spacing.. Just look at Lebron and Westbrook - Jordan has same or better athleticism, but they can't shoot (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41), while he had goat midrange efficiency, much better than Curry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31).

Essentially, MJ had Lebron/Westbrook's athleticism and better midrange shooting than Steph Curry.
When you can get in the playoffs with a 30 win team its not a tough time :oldlol:

[3ball]

I mean your older posts about Lebron hurting the scoring numbers of his teammates.


Lebron hurt the PPG of key teammates for most of his career, so the stats showing that are still very valid.

Not only did he lower the PPG of key teammates (Wade, Bosh, Love), but he lowered their APG (playmaking) and increased their assisted rate (play-finishing) - he reduced teammates into play-finishers.

Here's the same data I posted before that shows the APG and assisted rate of key teammates - it's still valid:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1





The suboptimal thing is out the window


Uh... no it isn't... Lebron won this year because Kyrie is a unique case - unlike the others, his PPG hasn't been affected by Lebron and his APG is only minimally affected.. And in Miami, the team had so much top-tier talent (Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen) that they had enough to win even after Lebron reduced their stats - and Lebron only needed to average 25 ppg on 44% in 2013 playoffs to win the ring.

The Spurs figured them out in 2014, just like Dallas did because the Spurs and Dallas didn't win based on talent - they won based on superior brand of basketball, which we all saw very clearly.





I wasn't talking about your posts that highlight MJ's scoring dominance.


It isn't just Jordan's next-level scoring dominance because he led his team in passing, just like Lebron - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals..

Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.

[Hey Yo]

Both at age 31

MJ - 3 titles, 3FMVP's and 3MVP's

LeBron - more playoff appearances, more Finals appearances, 3 titles, 3FMVP and 4MVP's

FACTS!

[3ball]

3Ball, I've gotten you to say that you do wish LeBron and his family a happy/healthy life, but just don't want him to be compared to MJ.

Can you at least appreciate what he did in some way?
-Bringing a championship to Cleveland
-Coming back down 3-1 against a 73 win team
-Back to Back 40 pt games
-Winning Game 7 on the road in the finals

I mean... do you at least have some appreciation of what we just saw ignoring any comparisons to MJ?


Lebron's accomplishment this year has improved his standing a great deal - he's no longer a fringe top 10 candidate and is probably top 7 - but it's hard to rank him because I know that many other all-time greats would have improved resumes if they team-hopped twice like Lebron did.. I believe that any ranking should account for that.

But I knew he was going to win the 2016 Finals after his first 41-point game in Game 5 - under the circumstances, it was clear he had literally "turned it up a notch", which was a big surprise to me.. I didn't think he was capable of going up another level halfway through the Finals, and i KNEW the Warriors didn't have the capacity to go up any more levels.

It's one of the bigger Finals accomplishments of all-time, but it's hard to gauge against MJ, since he beat his opponents by greater margins, in part because he did these kinds of things (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V_1ZxCN3nI) to avoid a Game 7.. He also played better EARLY in a series to avoid Game 7's - Jordan wouldn't have 3 straight bad games with under 20 points for the first 3 games of 2013 Finals - so instead of being down 2-1 like Lebron was, Jordan would've been up and wouldn't need Ray Allen's miracle later on.. DITTO FOR THESE FINALS, where Lebron played like AIDS thru 3 games (24 ppg and 6.1 turnovers).
.

[3ball]

Both at age 31

MJ - 3 titles, 3FMVP's and 3MVP's

LeBron - more playoff appearances, more Finals appearances, 3 titles, 3FMVP and 4MVP's

FACTS!


Lebron has 3 rings in 199 career playoff games, compared to Jordan's 6 in 179 games..

Sorry bud

[Hey Yo]

Lebron has 3 rings in 199 career playoff games, compared to Jordan's 6 in 179 games..

Sorry bud
But LeBron didn't quit for 2yrs to rest...... he's carried the load for 13 straight seasons (except for the 2011 Finals when it was still Wade's team)

[Roundball_Rock]

Both at age 31

MJ - 3 titles, 3FMVP's and 3MVP's

LeBron - more playoff appearances, more Finals appearances, 3 titles, 3FMVP and 4MVP's

FACTS!

It is an interesting comparison.

By age 31

Rings: LeBron 3, MJ 3, KAJ 1
Finals: LeBron 7, MJ 3, KAJ 2
MVP's: KAJ 5, LeBron 4, MJ 3
FMVP's: MJ 3, LeBron 3, KAJ 1

[Rocketswin2013]

3ball, jordan is/was better than lebron. give it a rest mate.

[Keno]

Both at age 31

MJ - 3 titles, 3FMVP's and 3MVP's

LeBron - more playoff appearances, more Finals appearances, 3 titles, 3FMVP and 4MVP's

FACTS!

DAMN. Lebron still on pace to be the goat. :rockon:

[livinglegend]

It is an interesting comparison.

By age 31

Rings: LeBron 3, MJ 3, KAJ 1
Finals: LeBron 7, MJ 3, KAJ 2
MVP's: KAJ 5, LeBron 4, MJ 3
FMVP's: MJ 3, LeBron 3, KAJ 1
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[pedromarinho]

DAMN. Lebron still on pace to be the goat. :rockon:

The ridiculous thing is that he actually is on the pace to be goat.

[3ball]

It is an interesting comparison.

By age 31

Rings: LeBron 3, MJ 3, KAJ 1
Finals: LeBron 7, MJ 3, KAJ 2
MVP's: KAJ 5, LeBron 4, MJ 3
FMVP's: MJ 3, LeBron 3, KAJ 1



So, in a feel-good moment, are we ignoring the common knowledge that Lebron played in a weaker conference?.. Even if you want to ignore it, the stats remain - he defeated 1/3 of the 50-win teams during his playoff career that MJ has.

http://i.imgur.com/yz8FH5x.jpg

[Quickening]

So, in a feel-good moment, are we ignoring the common knowledge that Lebron played in a weaker conference?.. Even if you want to ignore it, the stats remain - he defeated 1/3 the number of 50-win teams during his playoff career that MJ has.

http://i.imgur.com/yz8FH5x.jpg

MJ played in a weaker ERA :lol

His stats didn't translate to wins in the 80s, thats for sure.

[CuterThanRubio]

What makes you think he won't win another title at some point after what we just witnessed?

He'll be out there until age 40 if he doesn't have 6 by then

Cavs are essentially a lock to make the finals next year until proven otherwise, 3 more titles over more 6/7 seasons seems doable for him at his current pace.

Will he possess the same hunger after finally taking one back home is the question


*Jordan only has 4 legitimate rings, the shortened three point line era titles deserve an asterisk

[HylianNightmare]

Cry more

[Height Freak]

MJ played in a weaker ERA :lol

His stats didn't translate to wins in the 80s, thats for sure.

This era is weaker in many aspects.

[ArbitraryWater]

It is an interesting comparison.

By age 31

Rings: LeBron 3, MJ 3, KAJ 1
Finals: LeBron 7, MJ 3, KAJ 2
MVP's: KAJ 5, LeBron 4, MJ 3
FMVP's: MJ 3, LeBron 3, KAJ 1

just Bron's MVP window is over... doesnt have the energy for it anymore, ala 96-98 MJ.

2014 he had a stretch where he turned it up and made a last go at it. But either way, IMO, he should be sitting on 5 right now, with 2011.

[sportjames23]

His supporting cast was one of the worst ever - the numbers tell the story - Jordan's 1989 cast added enough help on top of his 33/8/8 to win 47 games - compare that to Lebron's cast in 2009, which added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games.. The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that his supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 additional wins isn't ONLY due to inferior competition - it's due to better supporting cast as well.

Brand of basketball isn't an issue - we know Jordan's team played a better brand of basketball because his brand of basketball was more successful in the playoffs.. Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champs to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's heavily-favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed in the 2nd Round by the Magic.

Also, there's another reason Jordan's cast might've been the worst ever - no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by 15 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan.. Let that sink in

And Jordan's impact on his horrible cast is clearly evident - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 6-peat dynasty.. Essentially, Jordan led that same lottery roster from 1989 to a 3-peat beginning 2 seasons later - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.
.

https://media.giphy.com/media/ISRyUCU5i8J4k/giphy.gif

[smoovegittar]

Enough of the bullshit already. LeBron James is right there with MJ. All time top 5. What he's done in the last week I doubt even Jordan could accomplish.

Let me add that I'm a 50 year old Knick fan who shadowed just about all of Jordan's career, so spare me the paragraphs of useless stats.

Legacy intact for King James. Curry and Kobe fans recognize.

[Hey Yo]

His supporting cast was one of the worst ever - the numbers tell the story
MJ's rookie year......Woolridge avg. 23ppg and Quintin avg. 16 off the bench.

That's better than anything James had his first 7 seasons.

[ArbitraryWater]

lets be real.. when Bron wins more its better supporting cast, and when he wins less its better supporting cast but couldnt maximize it... thats all that 3ball does. Lmao at comparing '88 vs '10 by the 3 raw main stats and thats it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

LeBron isn't MJ (his lack of an in-between game separates the two), but he's not far off either. After what this man showed in games 5 and 6, then subsequently in game 7...versus an historic 73-win team...you would be hard-pressed to find anybody rate him lower than top 5, and not second to MJ as far as perimeter play goes.

The defense, playmaking, rebounding, in-game iq where he finds ways to score despite his shot not falling...and then his play when his back is against the wall (statistically, you could argue he's the best of all time in that regard). Just unreal.

If Jordan is the 'perfect player', then LeBron is like a 98 or 99.

[Straight_Ballin]

Enough of the bullshit already. LeBron James is right there with MJ. All time top 5. What he's done in the last week I doubt even Jordan could accomplish.

Let me add that I'm a 50 year old Knick fan who shadowed just about all of Jordan's career, so spare me the paragraphs of useless stats.

Legacy intact for King James. Curry and Kobe fans recognize.

Look,
I know you want your kids to share in the greatness but let's not get carried away here. You saw MJ, they didn't. No need to try and make them feel like Bron is up there with MJ just because you feel bad that they never saw MJ.

[3ball]

MJ played in a weaker ERA :lol

His stats didn't translate to wins in the 80s, thats for sure.


His supporting cast was one of the worst ever - the numbers tell the story - Jordan's 1989 cast added enough help on top of his 33/8/8 to win 47 games - compare that to Lebron's cast in 2009, which added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games.. The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that his supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 additional wins isn't ONLY due to inferior competition - it's due to better supporting cast as well.

Brand of basketball isn't an issue - we know Jordan's team played a better brand of basketball because his brand of basketball was more successful in the playoffs.. Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champs to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's heavily-favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed in the 2nd Round by the Magic.

Also, there's another reason Jordan's cast might've been the worst ever - no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by 15 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan.. Let that sink in

And Jordan's impact on his horrible cast is clearly evident - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 6-peat dynasty.. Essentially, Jordan led that same lottery roster from 1989 to a 3-peat beginning 2 seasons later - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.

[Derka]

Leave it to you to take whatever is happening and make it about Jordan.

[Roundball_Rock]

just Bron's MVP window is over... doesnt have the energy for it anymore, ala 96-98 MJ.

Jordan was MVP in 96' and 98'. Any top 5 player has a shot at winning the MVP if his team performs well enough. LeBron will be a MVP contender for at least 3-4 more years. He probably will finish with 5 MVP's with an outside chance at 6.

[smoovegittar]

Look,
I know you want your kids to share in the greatness but let's not get carried away here. You saw MJ, they didn't. No need to try and make them feel like Bron is up there with MJ just because you feel bad that they never saw MJ.

My Brother, these aren't my kids up in here. My kids are Porzingis fans - true Blue and Orange. And I'm for real when I say that LBJ is right up there with MJ.

Didn't say he was better... we know this. But James is top 5 now. The man delivered.

[3ball]

After what Lebron showed in games 5 and 6 (b2b 40-point games)


Jordan has 47 playoff games with 40+ points (179 total games), which is 1 every 3.8 games.

Lebron only has 15 games of 40+ points (199 total games), which is 1 every 13.3 games.





versus an historic 73-win team


Jordan never beat a 73-win team, but he beat Shaq and Magic, who are better players than Lebron ever faced, let alone defeated.

Against Magic, Jordan guarded him for 14 of 20 quarters (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12376705&postcount=45) and dominated the matchup with 33/7/11 on 56%, to Magic's 19/7/12 on 43%.. The closest Lebron had to this type of two-way challenge is Durant, who outscored him 33 to 29 and outshot him 55% to 50%.

Jordan also significantly outplayed Drexler with 36 ppg on 51%, compared to Drexler's 25 ppg on 43%.. Given the massive gaps between MJ and Magic/Drexler, what would he do to Lebron?.. Magic and Drexler looked pretty good too before Jordan started whizzing by them.






The defense, playmaking, rebounding


It's statistical fact that Lebron dominates the ball like a point guard - he and Harden are the only non-point guards in the top 50 for time of possession (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1).. But even though he holds the ball as long as point guards, he only averages 1 more assist than SG Jordan.

It's not that Lebron is a bad passer for only averaging 1 more assist - it's that Jordan was a phenomenal passer, especially given his off-ball position and goat scoring load, which is why he averaged 30/9/11 the one time he got to play point guard (http://ballislife.com/michael-jordan-could-of-been-the-best-point-guard-ever-want-proof/) like Lebron, including a stretch of 10 triple doubles in 11 games.

Btw, in the 2015 Finals, Lebron's time of possession was an astonishing 12.0 minutes (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1), or 50% longer than the RS leader John Wall's 8.2 minutes (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1).. In this year's Finals, he held the ball for 7.5 minutes, which led the Finals and would put him in the top 5 for regular season.



CONTINUED....

[3ball]

.
CONTINUED....





in-game iq where he finds ways to score despite his shot not falling...


Lebron was the biggest player on the court and bullied the smaller Warriors, but he wouldn't bully the towering 80's or 90's front lines, who were allowed to be more physical.

I'd like to see him against the 90's Knicks, who clogged the paint with bodies - he would have to rely on his jumpshot a ton, which is bad for him - his career 3-point percentage in the playoffs is 32.1%, and he shot less than 40% from midrange in 10 of 13 seasons (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389794&postcount=17), including 13/52 (24%) on 2-point jumpshots in the 2016 Finals.

The reality is that Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler ALL (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12389778&postcount=41) have sub-par 3-point and midrange efficiency, but they're still top scorers because today's spacing and hands-off defense allows good athletes easier access to the rim.

MJ's athleticism would benefit the same way, except he had better midrange shooting than Steph Curry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12438405&postcount=31), which gives him a massive advantage over non-shooters Lebron, Westbrick and company.






If Jordan is the 'perfect player', then LeBron is like a 98 or 99.


The gap must be bigger than 100 to 98, because Jordan scored far more in the playoffs with better efficiency, while only getting 1 less assist..

Now would Lebron have the tiny assist edge if he was required to lead his team in scoring for every playoff series of his career by an average 15 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan did?... Obviously not - Lebron has many series where he wasn't the team's leading scorer, including an entire playoff run.. The reality is that NO all-time great led his team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by 15 ppg like Jordan (let that sink in).

Specifically, Jordan scored 5.5 more ppg with better efficiency, which is more valuable, requires more energy, and controls the game better than Lebron's 2.5 defensive rebound edge and 1.0 assist edge.. So your 100 to 98 ranking doesn't cut it because there's never been a #1 option that scored nearly 6 more points on better efficiency that wasn't considered the FAR better player.

In addition to Jordan's goat scoring load, he also led his team in passing, just like Lebron - Jordan led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49), so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.. Ultimately, Jordan's goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the goat performance and biggest load ever carried.
.

[greymatter]

Lebron doesn't have to do anything to "match" MJ's resume. He's created his own that will in some ways forever be inferior to MJ's, but in other ways can say that MJ couldn't have dreamed of touching.

Lebron already had a legendary series in which he carried his team past a huge favorite (07 Pistons) at the age of 21. A young, pre-Phil Jackson era Jordan would have simply gotten his shit pushed in. Now Lebron has a 2nd accomplishment that MJ was incapable of doing were he in the same position --again winning as a huge underdog, but this time while coming back from a 3-1 deficit. Then you have to factor in that Lebron completely dominated in the last 3 games on the defensive side of the ball. Jordan never had to be the anchor on both sides of the ball on any of his 6 titles.

In terms of just playoff success, the only thing Jordan has on Lebron is that he never choked away a series as the favorite. Lebron's 2011 (Mavs) Finals and 2010 ESF (Boston) chokejobs are what holds him back from being legitimately in the conversation of top 1-3 all time. However, Jordan's teams were never able to win a single series that they were more than slight underdogs. Lebron has won 2 series as huge underdogs (07 Pistons, 16 Warriors). If you were to remove the chokejobs from Lebron's playoff resume, he'd be in the conversation of being a greater playoff performer than Jordan.

Bottom line is that Jordan stans were taking an L regardless of who won the Finals. 73W team legitimizes their record with a title or Lebron's Cavs beat the greatest RS team in NBA history. They both overshadow Jordan's accomplishments in some manner.

[3ball]

Lebron beat Detroit in 2007 ECF, whereas Jordan would've gotten his shit pushed in.


Lebron only averaged 25 ppg on 43% in the series against Detroit - these stats would be the worst of MJ's career.





In 2016 Finals, Lebron completely dominated in the last 3 games on the defensive side of the ball. Jordan never had to be the anchor on both sides of the ball


Nonsense - Lebron's porous defense usually allows a role player to double his scoring average and get mvp, let alone dominate a 1-on-1 matchup with a top star like Jordan has on BOTH sides of the ball.. Jordan guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12376705&postcount=45) and dominated the matchup with 33/7/11 on 56%, to Magic's 19/7/12 on 43%.

The closest Lebron had to this type of two-way challenge is Durant, who outscored him 33 to 29 and outshot him 55% to 50%.

Jordan also significantly outplayed Drexler with 36 ppg on 51%, compared to Drexler's 25 ppg on 43%.. Given the massive gaps between MJ and Magic/Drexler, what would he do to Lebron?.. Magic and Drexler looked pretty good too before Jordan started whizzing by them.






Jordan's teams were never able to win a single series that they were more than slight underdogs.


This is grossly false - in 1989, Jordan's 6th-seeded Bulls were big underdogs in every series, and then took the champion Pistons to 6 games in ECF.

Listen to how every reporter predicted the Bulls would lose in the 1st Round to the 57-win Cavs and their #2 defense (this was the series with "the shot" over Ehlo):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=17m37s


Now that's a different dimension of alpha - Lebron is too much of a ***** to talk shit to the media like that.





Lebron has won 2 series as huge underdogs (07 Pistons, 16 Warriors).



MJ was bigger underdog during his 1989 run than Lebron's 2007 run:


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25,v #2 ranked defense.. 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)





Lebron's Cavs beat 73-win team, which overshadows Jordan's accomplishments in some manner.


Jordan never beat a 73-win team, but he beat Shaq and Magic, who are better players than Lebron ever faced, let alone defeated.. And again - Jordan dominated individual matchups with all-time greats (Magic, Drexler), while Lebron lets role players double their scoring average and win fmvp.

Btw, you haven't mentioned that Lebron has frequently LOST as the #1 seed, like in 2009, 2010, and 2011.. Jordan never lost as the favorite or even when it was 50/50 - he only lost as a heavy underdog, like from 1985-1990.
.

[Roundball_Rock]

You are comparing winning as an underdog in the 1st round with doing so in the ECF and the ultimate underdog in the Finals against a 73-9 team down 1-3 in the series? :coleman:

You are right. Jordan's teams never underperformed; LeBron's have at times. There is no 11' Finals or 09' ECF on MJ's resume. That is a point in favor of MJ. However, LeBron's teams have overperformed significantly many times (both in the regular season and playoffs); Jordan's didn't. When Jordan won championships his teams had the better record in four of the six Finals and five of the six ECF's (the Jazz and Bulls both won 62 games in 98' and the Knicks won 60 games to the Bulls' 57 in 93'). LeBron reached the Finals with scrubs in 07' (beating a team that made the ECF 5 years in a row from 03'-08', including the Finals twice and winning the 04' title) and beat a team that won 16 more games in the Finals this year.

I have long believed MJ is the better bet if you want to win with a good team--he was able to get more out of good and very good teams than LeBron (i.e. a 55 win team became a 72 win team with him). However, LeBron is the better bet if you want to compete with a lousy team (i.e. scrubs like the 07' Cavs or the scrubs he was left with after Love and Irving went down and still competed with a 67 win team in the Finals) or an average team. When Jordan had lousy teams the results were exactly that: lousy. The difference is Jordan was the better individual player but LeBron is the better team player.

[3ball]

However, LeBron's teams have overperformed significantly many times (both in the regular season and playoffs); Jordan's didn't.


This is grossly false - in 1989, Jordan's 6th-seeded Bulls were big underdogs in every series, and then took the champion Pistons to 6 games in ECF.

Listen to how every reporter predicted the Bulls would lose in the 1st Round to the 57-win Cavs and their #2 defense (this was the series with "the shot" over Ehlo):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=17m37s


Now that's a different dimension of alpha - Lebron is too much of a ***** to talk shit and predict the outcome to the media like that.





LeBron reached the Finals with scrubs in 07'


He only averaged 25 ppg on 43% against Detroit - those would be the worst stats of Jordan's playoff career.





LeBron reached the Finals with scrubs in 07'



MJ was bigger underdog during his 1989 run than Lebron's 2007 run:


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25,v #2 ranked defense.. 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)






However, LeBron is the better bet if you want to compete with a lousy team



GOAT impact on a lottery team


Jordan's 1989 cast added enough help on top of his 33/8/8 to win 47 games - compare that to Lebron's cast in 2009, which added enough help on top of his 28/8/7 to win 66 games..

The only possible reasons for the Cavs winning 19 more games despite Lebron's inferior production is that his supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 additional wins isn't ONLY due to inferior competition - it's due to better supporting cast as well.

Brand of basketball isn't an issue - we know Jordan's 1989 team played a better brand of basketball because his brand was more successful in the playoffs.. Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champs to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's heavily-favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed in the 2nd Round by the Magic.

Also, there's another reason Jordan's cast might've been the worst ever - no all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their career, let alone by 15 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan.. Let that sink in

And Jordan's impact on his horrible cast is clearly evident - in 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 6-peat dynasty.. Essentially, Jordan led that same lottery roster from 1989 to a 3-peat beginning 2 seasons later - that's the goat impact on a lottery team.

[sportjames23]

3ball killin 'em softly. :pimp:

[Dray n Klay]

Damn, my favourite player went 1-9 :pimp:


I know, I know

[scandisk_]

I have long believed MJ is the better bet if you want to win with a good team--he was able to get more out of good and very good teams than LeBron (i.e. a 55 win team became a 72 win team with him). However, LeBron is the better bet if you want to compete with a lousy team (i.e. scrubs like the 07' Cavs or the scrubs he was left with after Love and Irving went down and still competed with a 67 win team in the Finals) or an average team. When Jordan had lousy teams the results were exactly that: lousy. The difference is Jordan was the better individual player but LeBron is the better team player.

:applause: well put.

The problem with bron sometimes is that he has too many roles even with a good team. It kills the flow of their game sometimes.

[sportjames23]

3/7 I'm so happy!


Kobe still 5/7 doe. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

I have long believed MJ is the better bet if you want to win with a good team--he was able to get more out of good and very good teams than LeBron (i.e. a 55 win team became a 72 win team with him). However, LeBron is the better bet if you want to compete with a lousy team (i.e. scrubs like the 07' Cavs or the scrubs he was left with after Love and Irving went down and still competed with a 67 win team in the Finals) or an average team. When Jordan had lousy teams the results were exactly that: lousy. The difference is Jordan was the better individual player but LeBron is the better team player.

Wait. So you're essentially saying that Jordan meshed better with other star talent but somehow LBJ is the better team player? That doesn't make any sense. Jordan was far more portable and better able to achieve synergy with other stars and that's far more important than what you can do with/how much you can carry scrubs/roleplayers.

[3ball]

Wait. So you're essentially saying that Jordan meshed better with other star talent but somehow LBJ is the better team player? That doesn't make any sense. Jordan was far more portable and better able to achieve synergy with other stars and that's far more important than what you can do with/how much you can carry scrubs/roleplayers.
Why do you think the 1989 Bulls won 19 LESS games than the Cavs in 2009, despite Jordan and Lebron's stats being the same?

[Chadwin]

3ball is killing it in here.

[LeBird]

3ball is killing himself here.

Shambles :lol

[juju151111]

You are comparing winning as an underdog in the 1st round with doing so in the ECF and the ultimate underdog in the Finals against a 73-9 team down 1-3 in the series? :coleman:

You are right. Jordan's teams never underperformed; LeBron's have at times. There is no 11' Finals or 09' ECF on MJ's resume. That is a point in favor of MJ. However, LeBron's teams have overperformed significantly many times (both in the regular season and playoffs); Jordan's didn't. When Jordan won championships his teams had the better record in four of the six Finals and five of the six ECF's (the Jazz and Bulls both won 62 games in 98' and the Knicks won 60 games to the Bulls' 57 in 93'). LeBron reached the Finals with scrubs in 07' (beating a team that made the ECF 5 years in a row from 03'-08', including the Finals twice and winning the 04' title) and beat a team that won 16 more games in the Finals this year.

I have long believed MJ is the better bet if you want to win with a good team--he was able to get more out of good and very good teams than LeBron (i.e. a 55 win team became a 72 win team with him). However, LeBron is the better bet if you want to compete with a lousy team (i.e. scrubs like the 07' Cavs or the scrubs he was left with after Love and Irving went down and still competed with a 67 win team in the Finals) or an average team. When Jordan had lousy teams the results were exactly that: lousy. The difference is Jordan was the better individual player but LeBron is the better team player.
Green got suspended in game 5 and then iggy/Bogut got injured. Curry been injured the whole playoffs. Didn't Mj beat a team that was10 wins ahead of him in 1989 vs the Cavs.

[juju151111]

Why do you think the 1989 Bulls won 19 LESS games than the Cavs in 2009, despite Jordan and Lebron's stats being the same?
Teams were more stacked back then. The cap didn't take affect yet.

[ArbitraryWater]

Green got suspended in game 5 and then iggy/Bogut got injured. Curry been injured the whole playoffs. Didn't Mj beat a team that was10 wins ahead of him in 1989 vs the Cavs.

Igoudala was injured for half a game, which was the same amount Irving was in game 6. Curry is as healthy as he will ever be. Stop.

[juju151111]

Igoudala was injured for half a game, which was the same amount Irving was in game 6. Curry is as healthy as he will ever be. Stop.
Iggy was playing injured. If Iggy was healthy that would of been a dunk. He was moving gingerly the whole game. Bogut got injured which led tristan Thompson to go wild.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

@3ball

Why did you cut my posts into micro passages that are VOID of any context? :oldlol: I'm not comparing LeBron to Jordan directly. What I'm saying is that he's close.

You listing what Jordan did in the 90s and how/who he dominated is ALL common knowledge to most MJ fans like myself. :confusedshrug:

[Indian guy]

He was moving gingerly the whole game.

No he wasn't. Stop making sh!t up. Even W's said, both pre and post game 7, that Iggy was fine. He was a little hobbled for the 2nd half of Game 6, but that's part of the game. Kyrie couldn't give anything in the 2nd half of game 6 either after hurting his ankle.


Bogut got injured which led tristan Thompson to go wild.

TT averaged 10/10 through the first 5 games of the series. 12/10 in the last 2 games. His production remained the same with or without Bogut. Speaking of Bogut, the guy freaking averaged 3/3 in 12 mpg in this series and his team was a net negative with him on the floor. No different than last Finals, where he was so important that GS didn't even bother playing him in the last 3 games of the series after going down 2-1.

It's just :oldlol: the sh!t people will make up to feel better about LeBron's unprecedented feat.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is grossly false - in 1989, Jordan's 6th-seeded Bulls were big underdogs in every series, and then took the champion Pistons to 6 games in ECF.

So you are comparing losing in 6 games as an underdog in the ECF to actually win as a huge underdog in the ECF or the Finals? :oldlol:


The problem with bron sometimes is that he has too many roles even with a good team. It kills the flow of their game sometimes.

His broad role is a good point. He is not only asked to lead the team in scoring he is the team's primary playmaker and ballhander, he is the team's defensive anchor. In Miami he also was the team's top rebounder and he again was in the Finals against the Warriors.

In contrast Jordan's role was to lead in scoring and only there. He was the secondary ballhandler and playmaker, the tertiary rebounder, and not the defensive anchor.


So you're essentially saying that Jordan meshed better with other star talent but somehow LBJ is the better team player? That doesn't make any sense.

How many teams are star studded? Jordan, as evidenced by his record, did better with talented teams than LeBron did. Yet what would Jordan do with an average team? A lousy team? We know the answers to these questions. LeBron can contend with practically any team. Since he turned 22 his teams have never won less than 60% of the games he played in. Jordan, in contrast, had several losing seasons to open his career.

I would make the same statement about a player like Magic. He couldn't get a team to 72 wins or 69 wins but he could get more out of a weak team. His Lakers went from 58 wins and the Finals to 43 wins and the first round without him for a reason.


Jordan was far more portable and better able to achieve synergy with other stars and that's far more important than what you can do with/how much you can carry scrubs/roleplayers.

If you are one on of the few very talented teams then yes. Most teams, though, are not that.


Why do you think the 1989 Bulls won 19 LESS games than the Cavs in 2009

The 89' Bulls were a .500 team before Pippen became a starter (and promptly went on a roll of winning) and he also missed 9 games. That is one reason their final record was not stellar. They also closed the season on a 7 game losing streak. In between, though, they went 34-16. They lacked consistency over 82 games but showed flashes of strength, which they then exhibited in the playoffs.


Green got suspended in game 5 and then iggy/Bogut got injured. Curry been injured the whole playoffs. Didn't Mj beat a team that was10 wins ahead of him in 1989 vs the Cavs.

Why do MJ fans keep invoking squeaking by on a buzzer beater in the final game of the first round as some epic achievement?

It is interesting you raise the issue of injuries. When did the Bulls ever suffer a serious injury in the playoffs during their championship years? The answer is never. That is a big part of "6/6" that is ignored. The Bulls had unusually good luck in terms of injuries during their run. In contrast, LeBron's teams have suffered key injuries in several playoffs, i.e. Irving and Love in 15', Bosh in 12', his #2 option in 07', etc. KAJ's teams routinely suffered key injuries throughout the 70's. And so on.

[FKAri]

Jordan > Bron but 3ball has some whack ass arguments

[DMAVS41]

MJ is the superior player, but you can't discount the unbelievable 13 years we just "witnessed"...

If Lebron manages to put together another great 7 years or something...I won't even have words.

I've been very critical of Lebron, rightfully so imo, but back against the wall...the dude took it to another level.

Love him or hate him...you have to respect that. And doing the things he's done so far in his career 13 years in...it puts him on a tier with the elite of the elite.

Again, MJ will always be "better" than Lebron for me in terms of comparing their best basketball. But if Lebron puts in 20 years or 20 plus years...that longevity might bridge the gap. Who knows...but this is special.

[nba_55]

No he wasn't. Stop making sh!t up. Even W's said, both pre and post game 7, that Iggy was fine. He was a little hobbled for the 2nd half of Game 6, but that's part of the game. Kyrie couldn't give anything in the 2nd half of game 6 either after hurting his ankle.



TT averaged 10/10 through the first 5 games of the series. 12/10 in the last 2 games. His production remained the same with or without Bogut. Speaking of Bogut, the guy freaking averaged 3/3 in 12 mpg in this series and his team was a net negative with him on the floor. No different than last Finals, where he was so important that GS didn't even bother playing him in the last 3 games of the series after going down 2-1.

It's just :oldlol: the sh!t people will make up to feel better about LeBron's unprecedented feat.

:applause: :applause:

[KiiiiNG]

Why do MJ fans keep invoking squeaking by on a buzzer beater in the final game of the first round as some epic achievement?

It is interesting you raise the issue of injuries. When did the Bulls ever suffer a serious injury in the playoffs during their championship years? The answer is never. That is a big part of "6/6" that is ignored. The Bulls had unusually good luck in terms of injuries during their run. In contrast, LeBron's teams have suffered key injuries in several playoffs, i.e. Irving and Love in 15', Bosh in 12', his #2 option in 07', etc. KAJ's teams routinely suffered key injuries throughout the 70's. And so on.
Ether.

[dankok8]

You can't compare accomplishments when discussing which player is better. You can say Jordan is greater than Lebron and should be ranked higher all time and I would certainly agree with that but guys like 3ball and other assorted Lebron haters ignore the context of 6/6 and 3/7.

Jordan's Team vs. Opposing Team in the Finals

1991: +3 wins, +1.64 SRS, Worthy and Scott injured

SOLID FAVORITES

1992: +10 wins, +3.13 SRS

SOLID FAVORITES

1993: -5 wins, -0.08 SRS, Ceballos DNP and KJ injured

WASH

1996: +8 wins, +4.40 SRS

SOLID FAVORITES

1997: +5 wins, +2.73 SRS

SOLID FAVORITES

1998: +0 wins, +1.51 SRS, Pippen missed half a season so Bulls would have won more games

SLIGHT FAVORITES


Looking at that, one would expect Jordan to go around 5/6. The 1993 Finals was a toss-up and you could conceivably seem him lose in 1998. He was clearly favored to win the other four series. 6/6 is nice but it's not an aberration.



Lebron's Team vs. Opposing Team in the Finals

2007: -8 wins, -5.02 SRS

HEAVY UNDERDOGS

2011: +1 wins, +2.35 SRS

SLIGHT FAVORITES

2012: -1 wins, -0.72 SRS

WASH

2013: +8 wins, +0.36 SRS

SLIGHT FAVORITES

2014: -8 wins, -3.85 SRS

HEAVY UNDERDOGS

2015: -14 wins, -5.93 SRS, Irving and Love basically DNP except Kyrie in G1

HEAVY UNDERDOGS

2016: -16 wins, -4.93 SRS

HEAVY UNDERDOGS


Compared to Jordan we see that Lebron was a slight favorite in two series in 2011 and 2013, 2012 was a toss-up and he was a heavy underdog in the other four. Realistically you would expect Lebron to go 2/7 or 3/7.


And generally when you look at most all time greats their finals winning records are right around what you would expect.



CONTEXT...

[3ball]

Jordan's Team vs. Opposing Team in the Finals


Anyone who watched at the time knows that the 1991 Lakers were favored by pretty much everyone, and NBA.com's history page documents this:


"the Bulls were considered big underdogs to the Lakers in the Finals and the vast majority of media "experts" predicted an easy Lakers' victory."

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/top-20-moments-1990-91-season.html/



Also, the Bulls were underdogs in the 1998 Finals as well - they barely beat Indiana in ECF, while the Jazz had swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Popovich/Duncan/Robinson's 56-win Spurs..

So most people thought the Bulls would finally lose, which is why the ratings for that series are the highest of all time.





Jordan's Team vs. Opposing Team in the Finals

Lebron's Team vs. Opposing Team in the Finals


Your analysis ignores the fact that the biggest reason the Bulls were favored in 4 of 6 Finals was BECAUSE OF JORDAN.

No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, let alone by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan.... AND Jordan led the team in passing - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713121&postcount=49) 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammate field goals.

Jordan's ridiculous goat scoring load, team-leading passing, and best-ever defense at his position is the biggest load ever carried and that's the primary reason the Bulls were favored.

[Elosha]

Although the last few posts are comparing Finals records, it must be noted that New York in the ECF was probably the greatest challenge to the Bulls in 1993. The Bulls were definitely underdogs in that series and also against the Suns in the Finals. The 92-92 and 92-93 Knicks teama played some of the roughest, dirtiest, and most intense defense I've ever seen -- when such physicality still was allowed. The Bulls were down 0-2 in 93 ECF before storming back to win the series in 6 games. Jordan didn't shoot well overall, but he was literally being held, banged around, and double teamed on almost every possession. Still had a 56 point game in game 4 , and a rock-solid 29 point triple double in the all important game 5. Still, this was probably the only playoff series in Jordan's career where a teammate was more valuable. Scottie totally went off in that series. Indeed Sports Illustrated article "Eye of the Storm" at the time mentioned the same thing.

Despite that war of a series and the grueling punishment Jordan went through, he then put out what was probably the best Finals performance in history against the Suns in the next round.

Lebron, to his credit, has come up big when his back is against the wall, but he too often plays mediocre to allow himself to get in that position. In this series alone, he played relatively poorly in all three losses to GS. While Lebron and Cleveland must get credit for stepping it up and winning when it counted, this Finals is just as much about Golden State choking (and Green losing his head and getting suspended in game 5), as it is about Lebron. A mentally tougher team would have beaten Cleveland in game 5. GS was too busy taunting Lebron (nice job Klay) and preparing their coronation after game 4. They simply did not demonstrate the fortitude necessary of an all-time great champion.

If I were Golden State, I would let the bitterness of this defeat feed their rage and determination for next year. It's like after the Spurs lost to Lebron and the Heat in 2013. They knew they were the better team and let it slip away, and they then proceeded to plaster Lebron and the Heat the next year. If Golden State can get back to the Finals again next year, they will likely meet Cleveland again. (Seriously, could Cleveland possibly have an easier path to the Finals every year? Eastern Conference just has a 4 or 5 solid teams, no true rival for Cleveland). The Warriors know, or should know, they are the better team. If (and that's a big if) they can mentally recover, they should be able to beat Cleveland next year.

On another note, no doubt the 96 Bulls are better than this year's Warriors. The 97 and 93 Bulls are also clearly better in my mind, and probably also 91 and 92. I think the Bulls may have been too old in 98 to beat this year's Warriors, but conversely I would like their chances against Cleveland this year. Bulls just refused to lose during Jordan's championship run. If Jordan hadn't retired following his father's death for the 94 and 95 seasons, we'd probably be looking at 7 or 8 championships. All of these "prisoner of the moment" articles now claiming that Lebron is better than Jordan are ridiculous. Lebron had 4 great games this series, and came back from down 3-1. Give him all the credit. But he also had 3 relatively mediocre games, and found himself in a 3-1 hole. Just because Jordan and the Bulls were so dominant that they never fell into such a hole in the Finals and never even needed 7 games to win should not count against Jordan. GS choked just as much as Lebron willed his team to win. Still, this was definitely a great series and an amazing comeback from Cleveland. You could even make the case that Cleveland deserves to be mentioned as a top all time team since they beat the 73-9 Warriors. I think it was more of a fluke. Most great championship teams in the 80's, (Lakers & Celtics), 90's (Bulls) and 00's (Lakers) would have handled Cleveland.

[Lebron23]

Iggy was playing injured. If Iggy was healthy that would of been a dunk. He was moving gingerly the whole game. Bogut got injured which led tristan Thompson to go wild.


Are you still a Curry fan? hahahahahahaha. You Son of a B1tch.

[3ball]

Yet what would Jordan do a lousy team


In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So without Jordan, that roster was a LOTTERY roster and headed nowhere going into the 1990 season - but WITH Jordan, they were ECF veterans and about to begin a 6-peat dynasty.

Jordan led that same lottery roster from 1989, to a 3-peat beginning in 1991.. That's the goat impact on a lottery team.





How did Jordan do with a lousy team


Let's compare Jordan's 1989 supporting cast to Lebron's 2009 cast - Lebron won 19 more games even though his personal production (28/8/7) was less than Jordan's (33/8/8), which means his supporting cast was better and/or they played inferior competition.. Obviously, the 19 additional wins isn't ONLY due to inferior competition - it's due to better supporting cast as well.

Brand of basketball isn't an issue - we know Jordan's 1989 team played a better brand of basketball because his brand was more successful in the playoffs.. Jordan's 6th seeded Bulls beat higher seeds in every round and took the champs to 6 games in ECF, while Lebron's heavily-favored 1 seed saw their brand of basketball exposed in the 2nd Round by the Magic.





So you are comparing the Bulls losing as an underdog in the 1989 ECF, to winning as a huge underdog in the ECF or the Finals? :oldlol:


The Cavs weren't "huge" underdogs against the Pistons in 2007 - the 51-win Cavs were the 2-seed and they faced a 53-win, 1 seeded Pistons.

Btw, the Pistons 53 wins is the lowest ever for a #1 seed.

Otoh, the 6th seeded Bulls (47 wins) were huge underdogs against the 3rd seeded Cavs (57-wins).. Btw, just think about it - the Cavs were 3rd seed with 57 wins, while the 2007 Pistons were 1 seeds with 53 wins.. #weakconference





Why do MJ fans keep invoking squeaking by on a buzzer beater in the final game of the first round as some epic achievement?


The 6th seeded Bulls were massive underdogs versus the 3rd-seeded, 57-win Cavs and their 2nd ranked defense.

But in a very alpha move, Jordan looked at each of the 3 reporters who were travelling with the Bulls, and chastised them for picking the Cavs, while guaranteeing victory to their face - Sam Smith talks about the legendary alpha move here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCcvu9ObQRI&t=17m37s


So "the shot" was a frieking GUARANTEE... :pimp:






So you're comparing the Bulls losing as an underdog in the 1989 ECF, to winning as a underdog in the 2007 ECF? :oldlol:



Bigger underdog: Jordan's 1989 vs. Lebron's 2007:


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)



CONTINUED...
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[3ball]

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CONTINUED...





In contrast Jordan was the secondary playmaker


Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:


Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:


Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced



If Jordan was the secondary playmaker, why did he assist on the highest proportion of teammate field goals?

So obviously, you're making things up - everyone knows that JORDAN had the ball in his hands the most and he made most of the plays - this is common knowledge.





Lebron leads his team in scoring and he's the team's primary playmaker and ballhander


Jordan led his team in passing just like Lebron (shown above), while leading his team in scoring by a FAR greater margin than Lebron:

No all-time great led their team in scoring for every playoff series of their careers, let alone by an average of 15.4 ppg (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406920) like Jordan.. Otoh, Lebron has many series (including an entire playoff run) where he didn't lead his team in scoring.

Jordan's ridiculously goat scoring load and his team-leading passing shows that he had the worst supporting cast of any all-time great that won rings.





Since he turned 22 his teams have never won less than 60% of the games he played in.


Ditto for Jordan starting in his 4th season, just like Lebron.. Except in Jordan's first 3 seasons, he made sure his team was a top 8 team in the conference - he didn't miss the playoffs despite not having an all-star teammate, whereas Lebron missed the playoffs twice in his first 3 seasons with a 2-time all-star Center.

Also, it's a well-documented that Lebron played in one of the weakest conferences of all time (00's East), whereas Jordan played in one of the toughest of all time (80's East).





The Bulls had unusually good luck in terms of injuries during their run. In contrast, LeBron's teams have suffered key injuries in several playoffs, i.e. Irving and Love in 15', Bosh in 12', his #2 option in 07', etc. KAJ's teams routinely suffered key injuries throughout the 70's. And so on.


Pippen was hurt in 1998 Finals for Games 5 and 6 - he could only contribute 8 and 6 points, which required Jordan to produce the greatest clutch the game's ever seen.

Also, Ron Harper was injured and sat out Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw) of 1996 Finals, which forced Jordan to guard Payton for the whole game - Jordan proceeded to have his best game of that series, and secure his team an insurmountable, 3-0 lead.

That's just off the top of my head - there are other examples if we look into each series.. Btw, the only injuries that derailed a championship run for Lebron was 2015, so the entire injury argument is weak.. As for KAJ - for most of his rings, he wasn't the best player and didn't carry anywhere NEAR the load as Jordan.. KAJ was literally the 3rd best player for a few of his rings.
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[Carbine]

It's funny how in retrospect the warriors being a 73 win team makes this title mean so much more to LeBron when IMO the warriors they faced in te finals were NOT an historic team. Their starting small forward shot like 25 percent for the series, the unanimous MVP got outplayed absolutely positively clearly by a guy most didn't even have in their top 5 PG. Klay did not play well. Draymond has a GREAT game 7. An historic one, but the other games I thought he was pretty average.

It's a different story if the Warriors played up to or closely resembling their ability. Everyone down the list had a below average to horrible finals showing.