The general consensus is that Duncan is better all time than Kobe right?

[Nilocon165]

:confusedshrug: Just more impressed by his career accomplishments tbh

[Fudge]

Better career, better player, better looking, better skin complexion

Better everything, really.

[JT123]

For the non retarded yes. Duncan is still capable of contributing to a championship level team because he actually has SKILL.
Kobe on the other hand become completely worthless once he lost his athleticism after 2013. I guess that's the price he pays for all those years of going to Germany for illegal blood doping procedures.

[Cocaine80s]

That might be true but

In the picture below, weakside 3-point shooters (spacing) have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Joakim Noah doesn't leave #20 Mozgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders to contest Lebron.


http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png



Otoh, the 80's and 90's didn't shoot 3-pointers like today's game - those eras didn't have shooters on the weakside (spacing) drawing defenders away from the strongside, so the strongside was already flooded with all 5 defenders.. With all 5 defenders on the strongside and multiple defenders already standing where Joakim Noah flooded to, floods weren't necessary:


https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKishrkuHZV0IDK/giphy.gif


Ultimately, spacing causes today's defenders to make extra rotations.. But without that spacing (previous eras), defenders were already in closer proximity and the rotations weren't necessary.

Spacing and defensive movement offset each other, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. Excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004, ORtg has ranged between 105-108 since 1980, including an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

[stalkerforlife]

Better career, better player, better looking, better skin complexion

Better everything, really.

You make me laugh, little boy. :roll:

[Nilocon165]

I agree op
:cheers: Good to hear

[IllegalD]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

[CP3PO]

:confusedshrug: Just more impressed by his career accomplishments tbh
I think he is also better peak vs peak. Duncan dominated both ends of the court relatively flawlessly in his prime. Kobe was a solid defender but not dominant, and was a flawed offensive player despite moments of brilliance.

[Lebronxrings]

top 10 player>>>>>top 12

[Lebronxrings]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif
lol @ kobe stans trying to make duncan look bad. This is coming from a fan base that roots for the brick layer team liability.

[Fudge]

https://img.pandawhale.com/post-21703-Tim-Duncan-Deal-With-It-gif-gbjX.gif

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Better peak, longevity and just as good of a prime if not better. The way Duncan has closed his career (high impact) should be lauded by ALL fans, including the casuals.

Still doesn't mean Kobe wasn't near or on Duncan's level for their vast majority of their careers...its just common knowledge that TD was greater.

[IllegalD]

http://i.imgur.com/iW7vakv.gif


Nice broken link, f*ggot. :lol

[Prime_Shaq]

Yes

[RoseCity07]

No question. I think Dirk is too.

[ballinhun8]

Duncan has the best resume of any active player. Better than Kobe, lebron, Shaq from the 2000s and on era.

[Fudge]

Nice broken link, f*ggot. :lol
Whatchu mean, boo?

[Smoke117]

Yes.

[Round Mound]

Yes

[Mr Feeny]

In my objective estimation, I would say 2-3 times better. This seems about right:applause:

[34-24 Footwork]

About 6 people in this thread are the same people.

Outside of these six people, the gay community, Spurs fans and a handful of people at Disney, no one thinks Duncan is better

[GrapeApe]

Yes.

[Mr. Jabbar]

lol. no way

[Nilocon165]

lol. no way
Why?

[julizaver]

I don't know if it is consensus - for me Duncan slighly above Kobe in the all-time list. In my list both players outside Top 10 All-time (Duncan is close because of his resume, longevity and career).

[SpaceJam]

I don't know if it is consensus - for me Duncan slighly above Kobe in the all-time list. In my list both players outside Top 10 All-time (Duncan is close because of his resume, longevity and career).

What's your list if they are both outside the top 10 :eek:

[Showtime2001]

General consensus to LeBron stans, Spurs fans, and Kobe haters? Yes

[ISHGoat]

Among super casuals, people like the HR lady at work, my dad, randoms, Kobe is the better player because he is the more popular player. Playing in LA and being hyped and an attention-seeker his whole career has done that for him.

Amongst basketball fans and anyone with knowledge of the game, Duncan is the better player, had the better career, and it isn't close.

[CP3PO]

About 6 people in this thread are the same people.

Outside of these six people, the gay community, Spurs fans and a handful of people at Disney, no one thinks Duncan is better
Everybody but Laker fans and people who don't study the game on only knows who gets more media attention think Kobe is better.

[Lebronxrings]

Among super casuals, people like the HR lady at work, my dad, randoms, Kobe is the better player because he is the more popular player. Playing in LA and being hyped and an attention-seeker his whole career has done that for him.

Amongst basketball fans and anyone with knowledge of the game, Duncan is the better player, had the better career, and it isn't close.
this

[theaussieguy]

For the non retarded yes. Duncan is still capable of contributing to a championship level team because he actually has SKILL.
Kobe on the other hand become completely worthless once he lost his athleticism after 2013. I guess that's the price he pays for all those years of going to Germany for illegal blood doping procedures.
I agree with you for the most part, but blood doping isn't just a one off thing, it has to be done prior to everyday you perform.

[ShawkFactory]

Not the general consensus, but probably 60-65% would rank Duncan ahead.

[Bosnian Sajo]

It's pretty neck and neck honestly, even in the playoffs when it comes to who won more series vs the other, Kobe is just barely ahead. Still, in any all time list, you cant go wrong putting Kobe at 9 and Duncan at 10, or the other way around. They are right there.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Among super casuals, people like the HR lady at work, my dad, randoms, Kobe is the better player because he is the more popular player. Playing in LA and being hyped and an attention-seeker his whole career has done that for him.

Amongst basketball fans and anyone with knowledge of the game, Duncan is the better player, had the better career, and it isn't close.


It doesn't get any closer than Kobe-Duncan comparison....stop with the bullshit. You should of started that paragraph with "amongst the biased basketball fans".


Compare either to Lebron and it isn't even close, sure, both players are superior to Lebron. But it's not like Duncan beat Kobe everytime they met up, in actuality, Kobe has more wins vs Duncan than the other way around, both regular season and playoffs.

[rmt]

Yes.

And if there was a draft or starting a franchise, I think most would pick Duncan (if your goal was winning and not selling jerseys).

[Bosnian Sajo]

Yes.

And if there was a draft or starting a franchise, I think most would pick Duncan (if your goal was winning and not selling jerseys).

What the ****, they have the same number of titles moron. What a dumbass statement.


Can we stop acting like Kobe does not have 5 titles? I mean really. And all his titles came in his (long) prime, not as a role player to Kawhi Leonard.

[rmt]

What the ****, they have the same number of titles moron. What a dumbass statement.


Can we stop acting like Kobe does not have 5 titles? I mean really. And all his titles came in his (long) prime, not as a role player to Kawhi Leonard.

WINNING - did I say titles? Duncan is still winning - might not win a title this year but contributing to wins. Duncan has won more than Kobe - more GAMES, more MVPs, more FMVPs, more All-Defensive honors (maybe another this year).

2013-14 Regular Season
Duncan 15.1 pts 9.7 rebs 3 asst 1.9 blks
Leonard 12.8 pts 6.2 rebs 2 asst 1.7 stl

2014 Playoffs
Duncan 16.3 pts 9.2 rebs 2 asst 1.3 blks
Leonard 14.3 pts 6.7 rebs 1.7 asst 1.7 stl

If Duncan was a role player in 2013-14, then Leonard was even more so.

[Papaya Petee]

That might be true but

In the picture below, weakside 3-point shooters (spacing) have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Joakim Noah doesn't leave #20 Mozgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders to contest Lebron.


http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png



Otoh, the 80's and 90's didn't shoot 3-pointers like today's game - those eras didn't have shooters on the weakside (spacing) drawing defenders away from the strongside, so the strongside was already flooded with all 5 defenders.. With all 5 defenders on the strongside and multiple defenders already standing where Joakim Noah flooded to, floods weren't necessary:


https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKishrkuHZV0IDK/giphy.gif


Ultimately, spacing causes today's defenders to make extra rotations.. But without that spacing (previous eras), defenders were already in closer proximity and the rotations weren't necessary.

Spacing and defensive movement offset each other, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. Excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004, ORtg has ranged between 105-108 since 1980, including an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Showtime2001]

WINNING - did I say titles? Duncan is still winning - might not win a title this year but contributing to wins. Duncan has won more than Kobe - more GAMES, more MVPs, more FMVPs, more All-Defensive honors (maybe another this year).

2013-14 Regular Season
Duncan 15.1 pts 9.7 rebs 3 asst 1.9 blks
Leonard 12.8 pts 6.2 rebs 2 asst 1.7 stl

2014 Playoffs
Duncan 16.3 pts 9.2 rebs 2 asst 1.3 blks
Leonard 14.3 pts 6.7 rebs 1.7 asst 1.7 stl

If Duncan was a role player in 2013-14, then Leonard was even more so.
If Kobe was a "role player" in the 01' and 02' playoffs then clearly Duncan was in 13-14 so get over it.

[rmt]

If Kobe was a "role player" in the 01' and 02' playoffs then clearly Duncan was in 13-14 so get over it.

I said nothing about Kobe being a role player in 01 and 02.

[Showtime2001]

I said nothing about Kobe being a role player in 01 and 02.
No you did not I'm just going by ISH logic.

[AirBonner]

No you did not I'm just going by ISH logic.
you sound like a woman abused in a marriage stfu :roll:

[JT123]

you sound like a woman abused in a marriage stfu :roll:
:lol :lol :lol Kobe stans are sensitive as fck. It's cause deep down they know Kobe's ring count is inflated :yaohappy:

[Showtime2001]

I sound like a woman abused in a marriage I should stfu :roll:
I agree

:applause:

[AirBonner]

I agree

:applause:
cringe.

[Showtime2001]

cringe.
Meltdown.

[AirBonner]

Meltdown.
Rentfree. :lol

[bizil]

I wouldn't say its consensus. But I think I would lean to Duncan. The Spurs have been a title threat for Duncan's ENTIRE LONG ASS CAREER pretty much. Kobe couldn't say the same because of the turmoil in LA. Not keeping Shaq around long term cost Kobe at least two rings in my opinion. And in turn, cost him some slots on the GOAT list. Once Shaq was out of his prime, he could go his own way. While Kobe was still strong in his prime.

After Timmy's first season, he was ALREADY All NBA 1st team. Plus Timmy REDEFINED the PF position. He brought a dominant 7 foot center's skillset to the PF position. Something which was NEVER DONE before.

As great as Kobe was, he didn't really revolutionize the SG position in that kind of manner. So even though u could argue Kobe over Timmy, I would go with Duncan for the reasons I laid out.

[Smoke117]

I wouldn't say its consensus. But I think I would lean to Duncan. The Spurs have been a title threat for Duncan's ENTIRE LONG ASS CAREER pretty much. Kobe couldn't say the same because of the turmoil in LA. Not keeping Shaq around long term cost Kobe at least two rings in my opinion. And in turn, cost him some slots on the GOAT list. Once Shaq was out of his prime, he could go his own way. While Kobe was still strong in his prime.

After Timmy's first season, he was ALREADY All NBA 1st team. Plus Timmy REDEFINED the PF position. He brought a dominant 7 foot center's skillset to the PF position. Something which was NEVER DONE before.

As great as Kobe was, he didn't really revolutionize the SG position in that kind of manner. So even though u could argue Kobe over Timmy, I would go with Duncan for the reasons I laid out.

lol...no he didn't. He was just a center playing out of position because he was playing with David Robinson. He's pretty much always been a center labled as a PF, but his role has always been that of a center. NOW KEVIN GARNETT...HE REDEFINED THE PF POSITION. I don't even think you know how PF's even used to play back then anyway...they were basically Centers who were better at running...it was a very bruising "power" position like Center. Kevin Garnett was the first of the new, more athletic and mobile PF's that were adding guard type skills to their skillset.

[bizil]

lol...no he didn't. He was just a center playing out of position because he was playing with David Robinson. He's pretty much always been a center labled as a PF, but his role has always been that of a center. NOW KEVIN GARNETT...HE REDEFINED THE PF POSITION.

KG redefined it more than Timmy! No doubt about it!! But in Timmy's earlier days, he played OFTEN with 7 foot centers! Guys besides Robinson too. Before Tim, u didn't see dominant back to the basket 7 foot centers at the PF. Sampson at 7'4 redefined the position, but he wasn't a dominant back to the basket force. That's why the Dream (being 4-5 inches shorter) was the center. For u to say Duncan was PLAYING out of position is LAUGHABLE!! Duncan at the PF or C was DESTINED to be one of the greats.

BUT U ALSO fail to recognize that Duncan had many of the elements of the NEW AGE PF's. Timmy had underrated handles, great passing ability, AND was able to dominate from the midrange area.

SO ONCE AGAIN, Timmy redefined the PF position! It wasn't on the level of KG, but he redefined it NONETHELESS!! Dirk, KG, and Timmy ALL REDEFINED the PF position in the 2000s. That's why it was the Golden Era of the position. When u couple ALL of Timmy's attributes, NO DOUBT he redefined the position.

[Smoke117]

KG redefined it more than Timmy! No doubt about it!! But in Timmy's earlier days, he played OFTEN with 7 foot centers! Guys besides Robinson too. Before Tim, u didn't see dominant back to the basket 7 foot centers at the PF. Sampson at 7'4 redefined the position, but he wasn't a dominant back to the basket force. That's why the Dream (being 4-5 inches shorter) was the center. For u to say Duncan was PLAYING out of position is LAUGHABLE!! Duncan at the PF or C was DESTINED to be one of the greats.

BUT U ALSO fail to recognize that Duncan had many of the elements of the NEW AGE PF's. Timmy had underrated handles, great passing ability, AND was able to dominate from the midrange area.

SO ONCE AGAIN, Timmy redefined the PF position! It wasn't on the level of KG, but he redefined it NONETHELESS!! Dirk, KG, and Timmy ALL REDEFINED the PF position in the 2000s. That's why it was the Golden Era of the position. When u couple ALL of Timmy's attributes, NO DOUBT he redefined the position.

...uh...you realize David Robinson already had all that right? In fact...he had better handles than Duncan.

[bizil]

...uh...you realize David Robinson already had all that right? In fact...he had better handles than Duncan.

U are missing the point!! At the PF position, I was talking about the attributes that Duncan brought to the table!! At the PF, a 7 FOOTER NEVER had Duncan's package of attributes. IM NOT TALKING ABOUT WHAT David did at the center spot. I was TALKING ABOUT what Duncan did SPECIFICALLY for the PF position.

If u wanna talk about what David did for the center position, then MAKE A THREAD ABOUT THAT SHIT!! I'm talking about what Timmy did at the PF spot!! Learn how to comprehend what people are getting across BEFORE u make your remarks.

[Smoke117]

U are missing the point!! At the PF position, I was talking about the attributes that Duncan brought to the table!! At the PF, a 7 FOOTER NEVER had Duncan's package of attributes. IM NOT TALKING ABOUT WHAT David did at the center spot. I was TALKING ABOUT what Duncan did SPECIFICALLY for the PF position.

If u wanna talk about what David did for the center position, then MAKE A THREAD ABOUT THAT SHIT!! I'm talking about what Timmy did at the PF spot!! Learn how to comprehend what people are getting across BEFORE u make your remarks.

The point is it's not that big of deal when a Center is already doing what you are talking about. Duncan didn't redefine anything...he was just forced to play out of position because they had David Robinson. It's not hard to see that Robinson being much more athletic and a better ball handler would make more sense as a PF in general...Duncan did not redefine anything at the PF position, period.

[jstern]

Among super casuals, people like the HR lady at work, my dad, randoms, Kobe is the better player because he is the more popular player. Playing in LA and being hyped and an attention-seeker his whole career has done that for him.

Amongst basketball fans and anyone with knowledge of the game, Duncan is the better player, had the better career, and it isn't close.
This pretty much nails it.

I'm really sick right now, and it gives me perspective that in the grand scheme of things basketball doesn't matter. So Kobe stans really should just accept it and understand that there's no shame.

[bizil]

The point is it's not that big of deal when a Center is already doing what you are talking about. Duncan didn't redefine anything...he was just forced to play out of position because they had David Robinson. It's not hard to see that Robinson being much more athletic and a better ball handler would make more sense as a PF in general...Duncan did not redefine anything at the PF position, period.

LMAO!! U are lost!! A 7 footer with Duncan attributes was NEVER SEEN at the PF position. That's my basic point!! And CAN'T be debated. Before Duncan, what other 7 footer had his package of skills at the PF? Plus PEOPLE refer to Duncan as the GOAT PF.

I DON'T GIVE A DAMN what David did at center. That ISN'T the subject!! The subject is Duncan and what he did for the PF position!! For u to say Duncan didn't revolutionize the PF position is INSANE!! Name me ANOTHER 7 Foot PF with Duncan's skillset before him... U CAN'T!!! Which means he redefined the PF position. And STICK TO PF!!! I'm not takling about what David did at center!

[Rocketswin2013]

they're like 5 - 9 ranks away from each other.


a psuedo-tier if you will.

edit: to me. they are to me. just my opinion.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I wouldn't say its consensus. But I think I would lean to Duncan. The Spurs have been a title threat for Duncan's ENTIRE LONG ASS CAREER pretty much. Kobe couldn't say the same because of the turmoil in LA. Not keeping Shaq around long term cost Kobe at least two rings in my opinion. And in turn, cost him some slots on the GOAT list. Once Shaq was out of his prime, he could go his own way. While Kobe was still strong in his prime.

After Timmy's first season, he was ALREADY All NBA 1st team. Plus Timmy REDEFINED the PF position. He brought a dominant 7 foot center's skillset to the PF position. Something which was NEVER DONE before.

As great as Kobe was, he didn't really revolutionize the SG position in that kind of manner. So even though u could argue Kobe over Timmy, I would go with Duncan for the reasons I laid out.


See this is the type of logic people use against Kobe that makes it to where he can't make anybody happy.

If you remember the time period, one of the biggest knocks on Kobe was that he "needed Shaq" to win titles and that he couldn't do it as the man. Back then it was hurting his GOAT status that he never won as the clear cut man.

So what does he do? He makes three finals and wins two rings/ two FMVP in the first five years of Shaq's absence, forever silencing the notion that he needed Shaq or couldn't win one as the man.

But now people wanna use Shaq leaving against him? Makes no sense, its like they set it up so that he had to prove that he could win without Shaq and then once he did the goal post changed to "what could he have done with Shaq if they stayed together"

I mean come on people pick one. And I don't think its fair to say that Shaq leaving costed Kobe any titles. Shaq won with Wade when Wade was playing at an all nba first team level and having an amazing post season, other than that Shaq didn't do anything on a championship level after leaving Kobe.

But Kobe was able to win 2 without him, so I don't see how these hypothetical rings that they might have won together hurts his GOAT status when FOR YEARS the biggest thing hurting his GOAT status was the notion of "he can't do it without Shaq"

doesn't make much sense to penalize him for proving everybody wrong.

[bizil]

See this is the type of logic people use against Kobe that makes it to where he can't make anybody happy.

If you remember the time period, one of the biggest knocks on Kobe was that he "needed Shaq" to win titles and that he couldn't do it as the man. Back then it was hurting his GOAT status that he never won as the clear cut man.

So what does he do? He makes three finals and wins two rings/ two FMVP in the first five years of Shaq's absence, forever silencing the notion that he needed Shaq or couldn't win one as the man.

But now people wanna use Shaq leaving against him? Makes no sense, its like they set it up so that he had to prove that he could win without Shaq and then once he did the goal post changed to "what could he have done with Shaq if they stayed together"

I mean come on people pick one. And I don't think its fair to say that Shaq leaving costed Kobe any titles. Shaq won with Wade when Wade was playing at an all nba first team level and having an amazing post season, other than that Shaq didn't do anything on a championship level after leaving Kobe.

But Kobe was able to win 2 without him, so I don't see how these hypothetical rings that they might have won together hurts his GOAT status when FOR YEARS the biggest thing hurting his GOAT status was the notion of "he can't do it without Shaq"

doesn't make much sense to penalize him for proving everybody wrong.

Learn how to comprehend shit!! ALL I SAID was Kobe and Shaq were capable of more rings. BOTH SAID THAT THEMSELVES!!! You are a DAMN FOOL if u think Kobe and Shaq weren't capable of more rings together. Me pointing that out isn't HATING ON KOBE!! And I NEVER SAID OR THOUGHT that Kobe couldn't win rings on his own. I KNEW HE COULD be the best player on titles teams. I mean DAMN he was the best perimeter player in the world once the Shaq-Kobe train got rolling. So it was two alpha dogs DOMINATING TOGETHER!!

Once Shaq is out of his prime in his mid 30's, then he can move on if he wants. From there, Kobe COULD CONTINUE to win more rings. Kobe with 7-8 rings INSTEAD of five rings would vault him EVEN HIGHER GOAT wise than he already is.

[SouBeachTalents]

See this is the type of logic people use against Kobe that makes it to where he can't make anybody happy.

If you remember the time period, one of the biggest knocks on Kobe was that he "needed Shaq" to win titles and that he couldn't do it as the man. Back then it was hurting his GOAT status that he never won as the clear cut man.

So what does he do? He makes three finals and wins two rings/ two FMVP in the first five years of Shaq's absence, forever silencing the notion that he needed Shaq or couldn't win one as the man.

But now people wanna use Shaq leaving against him? Makes no sense, its like they set it up so that he had to prove that he could win without Shaq and then once he did the goal post changed to "what could he have done with Shaq if they stayed together"

I mean come on people pick one. And I don't think its fair to say that Shaq leaving costed Kobe any titles. Shaq won with Wade when Wade was playing at an all nba first team level and having an amazing post season, other than that Shaq didn't do anything on a championship level after leaving Kobe.

But Kobe was able to win 2 without him, so I don't see how these hypothetical rings that they might have won together hurts his GOAT status when FOR YEARS the biggest thing hurting his GOAT status was the notion of "he can't do it without Shaq"

doesn't make much sense to penalize him for proving everybody wrong.

I don't disagree, I think what he meant is had Shaq/Kobe been able to work things out and played together past '04, they could have won more titles together, and '06 on Kobe would have clearly been the better player

[TheMarkMadsen]

As for the topic I have no beef with anybody picking either player but I think a lot of the reasoning behind it is misguided/unfair.

I see people praising Duncan for being on a winning team for so long. But so much of that lately has been at a level that is borderline role player..

Think about this, if Kobe averaged 13 ppg while his team wins 60 games and gets the first seed.. does anybody care? Does anybody count that towards beefing up Kobe's resume.. Be honest, if Kobe averaged 13 ppg for a season while his team won the west and hit 60 wins all we would hear about is how he was "carried" and how it doesn't count, etc. etc.


That same team lost in the first round to an 8th seed.. can you imagine if that happened to Kobe? We'd never hear the end of it, I mean we constantly hear about him losing as a 7 seed to the 2 seed so I'm sure him losing as the 1 seed to the 8th seed while he's on a loaded team would really hurt his perception on ISH.

People have such high standards for how Kobe is supposed to play if he is to get any credit. People wanna discredit rings where he averaged 30/7 for the post season.. I can't imagine him being the 5th scoring option on a team with 2 all stars and the reigning DPOY while getting any credit for his teams success..

I see so much double standard in these arguments

[bizil]

I don't disagree, I think what he meant is had Shaq/Kobe been able to work things out and played together past '04, they could have won more titles together, and '06 on Kobe would have clearly been the better player

Exactly right!! I wasn't dissing Kobe at all. But Kobe and Shaq could have been two of the top 5 GOAT with 7-8 rings under their belts. We all know rings can be a determining factor at times for GOAT status. But due to what happened in LakerLand, they didn't reach the heights that they could of.

And as a matter of fact, the way Kobe won his five rings AMIDST the turmoil in LA should be applauded! Timmy didn't have the BS to deal with that Kobe did in LA. Sure some of it was Kobe's fault. But I think he catches too much heat.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Learn how to comprehend shit!! ALL I SAID was Kobe and Shaq were capable of more rings. BOTH SAID THAT THEMSELVES!!! You are a DAMN FOOL if u think Kobe and Shaq weren't capable of more rings together. Me pointing that out isn't HATING ON KOBE!! And I NEVER SAID OR THOUGHT that Kobe couldn't win rings on his own. I KNEW HE COULD be the best player on titles teams. I mean DAMN he was the best perimeter player in the world once the Shaq-Kobe train got rolling. So it was two alpha dogs DOMINATING TOGETHER!!

Once Shaq is out of his prime in his mid 30's, then he can move on if he wants. From there, Kobe COULD CONTINUE to win more rings. Kobe with 7-8 rings INSTEAD of five rings would vault him EVEN HIGHER GOAT wise than he already is.

Your reading comprehension sucks, seriously you missed the entire point

And if you really think that Shaq was good enough to be a 2nd option on a championship team past 06 then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't play these stupid, hypothetical games of "how many rings could they have won"

reality is that they did not like each-other and it came to a point where the team had to pick between the two. It wasn't going to work out past 04, simple as that.

Their personalities did not mesh and I wouldn't want to change either of their personalities/mentalities because that is such a huge driving force between what makes a player who they are.

[TheMarkMadsen]

The narrative at the time was that Kobe couldn't win without Shaq. It was hurting his GOAT status.

Kobe then went on to win without Shaq, proving these people wrong.

Which is why it is dumb to sit here 10 years later and say "oh well what if"

because the fact that he proved people wrong and did it without Shaq, is the only reason people are interested enough now to wonder "what if" they stayed together.

[Overdrive]

Think about this, if Kobe averaged 13 ppg while his team wins 60 games and gets the first seed.. does anybody care? Does anybody count that towards beefing up Kobe's resume.. Be honest, if Kobe averaged 13 ppg for a season while his team won the west and hit 60 wins all we would hear about is how he was "carried" and how it doesn't count, etc. etc.

Depends on impact and his overall stats. 13PPG don't tell the whole story. Kobe playing good defense, scoring 13 PPG, but adding 8 APG, 3RPG, 1SPG + being the obvious vocal leader of the team would paint a different picture than shooting 25 times for 25 points. The big problem is that shooting guards can't keep defending at an high level later in their career, because defense for guards is based on quickness and dexterity whereas as a big you stay big, no matter the age.

Of course Kobe had bad luck with teams whereas Duncan had a steady stream of good to great teams.

[G0ATbe]

are we talking general consensus on ish or in the real world? In general, nba fans worldwide recognize Kobe as a top 2 GOAT at the very least. Duncan is a top 10 player but Kobe is a couple tiers above him. Not even a debate.

[bizil]

As for the topic I have no beef with anybody picking either player but I think a lot of the reasoning behind it is misguided/unfair.

I see people praising Duncan for being on a winning team for so long. But so much of that lately has been at a level that is borderline role player..

Think about this, if Kobe averaged 13 ppg while his team wins 60 games and gets the first seed.. does anybody care? Does anybody count that towards beefing up Kobe's resume.. Be honest, if Kobe averaged 13 ppg for a season while his team won the west and hit 60 wins all we would hear about is how he was "carried" and how it doesn't count, etc. etc.


That same team lost in the first round to an 8th seed.. can you imagine if that happened to Kobe? We'd never hear the end of it, I mean we constantly hear about him losing as a 7 seed to the 2 seed so I'm sure him losing as the 1 seed to the 8th seed while he's on a loaded team would really hurt his perception on ISH.

People have such high standards for how Kobe is supposed to play if he is to get any credit. People wanna discredit rings where he averaged 30/7 for the post season.. I can't imagine him being the 5th scoring option on a team with 2 all stars and the reigning DPOY while getting any credit for his teams success..

I see so much double standard in these arguments

U are missing the point!! For starters, u could go either way when it comes to Kobe and Duncan. But when u factor GOAT status, u factor these things:

Solo Accolades
Team Accolades
Longevity being a great player
Peak and prime value
Numbers
Impact on the L (redefining a position, causing rules to change, etc.)

When u add all these things up, I go slightly Duncan. That's not to say Timmy has Kobe beat in all of these categories. But The Spurs SUSTAINED SUCCESS and him being THE MAIN REASON FOR IT is enough to swing it Timmy's way. Both have five rings. Tim did it in THE PERFECT ORGANIZATION all the way around.

In Kobe's case, he won five rings amidst a lot of turmoil. And for doing that, he's an icon. But IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, Kobe would have accumulated a resume CLEARLY better than Duncan. But since he didn't, the debate is more arguable. I've heard Kobe AND Shaq say they regret not reaching their potential. That's all Im pointing out.

[GrapeApe]

are we talking general consensus on ish or in the real world? In general, nba fans worldwide recognize Kobe as a top 2 GOAT at the very least. Duncan is a top 10 player but Kobe is a couple tiers above him. Not even a debate.

:wtf:

That's a completely ridiculous statement. I've never heard ANYONE call Kobe a top 2 GOAT (except maybe KennethGriffin or Stalker). Top 2 SG, yes. Saying that Kobe is a couple tiers above Duncan is equally ridiculous.

The general consensus "big 4" are Jordan, KAJ, Russell, and Wilt. That's the top tier, the Mt. Rushmore if you will, and those are the 4 players with an argument for being GOAT. Russell is greatest winner, Wilt the most statistically dominant, KAJ has the greatest overall career (HS, NCAA, Pro) and most MVP's, and Jordan has the best combination of everything.

The next tier generally consists of Magic, Bird, Duncan, and Shaq (not necessarily in that order).

The 3rd tier is generally Kobe, Hakeem, Lebron, Moses, and maybe Big-O and West. Again, not always in that order.

I'm not saying these are 100% absolute and there's always going to be subjective variability, but if you look at the majority of all-time rankings they are usually pretty consistent with those tiers.

[SouBeachTalents]

:wtf:

That's a completely ridiculous statement. I've never heard ANYONE call Kobe a top 2 GOAT (except maybe KennethGriffin or Stalker). Top 2 SG, yes. Saying that Kobe is a couple tiers above Duncan is equally ridiculous.

The general consensus "big 4" are Jordan, KAJ, Russell, and Wilt. That's the top tier, the Mt. Rushmore if you will, and those are the 4 players with an argument for being GOAT. Russell is greatest winner, Wilt the most statistically dominant, KAJ has the greatest overall career (HS, NCAA, Pro) and most MVP's, and Jordan has the best combination of everything.

The next tier generally consists of Magic, Bird, Duncan, and Shaq (not necessarily in that order).

The 3rd tier is generally Kobe, Hakeem, Lebron, Moses, and maybe Big-O and West. Again, not always in that order.

I'm not saying these are 100% absolute and there's always going to be subjective variability, but if you look at the majority of all-time rankings they are usually pretty consistent with those tiers.

Bro, WAY too much time and effort responding to an obvious troll :lol

[GrapeApe]

Bro, WAY too much time and effort responding to an obvious troll :lol

Yeah, he was more than likely trolling but I was going to post something similar in this thread anyway. The sad part is, this place has gotten so bad it IS probably a waste of time and effort regardless.

:(